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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / August 2005

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Kim - 02 Aug 2005 19:42 GMT
Hi folks,

I would like to learn about University of MD dental school vs Howard
University college of Dentistry.  I'm looking to pursue dentistry, but
not sure which will be a better choice.  I understand that the dental
schools are not ranked.  Please share your knowledge as well as your
opinion on these two schools.
Steven Fawks - 02 Aug 2005 20:09 GMT
I know nothing of those particular schools, however one basic
point to emphasize is that the less debt you have to incur during
school, the better.

Either school will provide a dental education that will enable you
to practice dentistry.  It is usually more important what you
choose to do in school instead of which school you attend.  I doubt
that the curriculum is really very different between them.

If you are accepted at both, check the cost for attending each of the
schools and pick the one that is cheapest (figure all four years).
If they are basically the same price, then you might get into
hair-splitting to see which one might offer a better experience.

JMO,
Fawks

> Hi folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> schools are not ranked.  Please share your knowledge as well as your
> opinion on these two schools.
Dr Steve - 02 Aug 2005 22:28 GMT
I think DR. Fawks gives good advice.  I also know little about either
school.  If you plan to practice every day dentistry in private practice,
look for a school in a big urban area which will have lots of patients to
gain experience on.  Some of the more "academic" schools are located in
small towns with very little patient base to learn on.  Usually, those
schools make up for it by doing more research and preparing you for
specialty training better.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S.
Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
> I know nothing of those particular schools, however one basic
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>> schools are not ranked.  Please share your knowledge as well as your
>> opinion on these two schools.
clintonz@prodigy.net - 02 Aug 2005 22:49 GMT
> I think DR. Fawks gives good advice.  I also know little about either
> school.  If you plan to practice every day dentistry in private practice,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> schools make up for it by doing more research and preparing you for
> specialty training better.

Howard is in downtown DC and UMD is very close to DC. both are in
highly populated areas and accesible by subway. My crazy dentist
actually went to Georgetown also in DC and with a religous core, but
I'm not sure if they still have a dental school. There are also a
number of other medical schools centers in DC such as NIH, Naval
insitutes, and georgewashington. You might want to ask what
outside educational opportunities these schools have with government
research agencies,  because there is a lot of government
stuff going on. I'm wondering where the UMD dental school is exactly
located because it might be closer to, or in Baltimore. UMD is a huge
school.

Without knowing anything about either dental school I would imagine
UMD would have more opportunities simply because the main school is
so big and has so many resources.

I did however also briefly see a dentist in DC who went to Howard
dental school and now in practice consults with Hopkins so maybe they
do have quite a good dental program at Howard.
Steven Bornfeld - 03 Aug 2005 00:44 GMT
>>I think DR. Fawks gives good advice.  I also know little about either
>>school.  If you plan to practice every day dentistry in private practice,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> actually went to Georgetown also in DC and with a religous core, but
> I'm not sure if they still have a dental school.

    I'm pretty sure Georgetown dental school closed some years ago.

Steve

 There are also a
> number of other medical schools centers in DC such as NIH, Naval
> insitutes, and georgewashington. You might want to ask what
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> dental school and now in practice consults with Hopkins so maybe they
> do have quite a good dental program at Howard.

Signature

Cut the nonsense to reply

clintonz@prodigy.net - 03 Aug 2005 00:58 GMT
> >>I think DR. Fawks gives good advice.  I also know little about either
> >>school.  If you plan to practice every day dentistry in private practice,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Steve

That's really strange, because of course Georgetown has a great
reputation as a school. My dentist proudly posted his diploma
from Georgetown and we were all quite impressed, but if Georgetown
dental school was in fact a good program I would not expect it
to close.
Steven Bornfeld - 03 Aug 2005 01:00 GMT
>>>>I think DR. Fawks gives good advice.  I also know little about either
>>>>school.  If you plan to practice every day dentistry in private practice,
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> dental school was in fact a good program I would not expect it
> to close.

    Plenty of dental schools have closed in the past 20 years or so.
Emory, Fairleigh-Dickinson come to mind.  I think SUNY Stony Brook was
slated to close, and it's only maybe 30 years old.

Steve

Signature

Cut the nonsense to reply

Fawks - 03 Aug 2005 02:44 GMT
Northwestern, Loyola, Washington U. (St. Louis).

Fawks
Tony Bad - 04 Aug 2005 15:09 GMT
> I'm pretty sure Georgetown dental school closed some years ago.
>
> Steve

1990 was the final year...saved me some money on alumni contributions!

The closure of the schools was largely due to the fact the president of the
university wanted to eliminate what he felt were "trade schools" and sell
off the entire medical complex. Several of the larger hospital management
groups were interested but wanted no part of running a dental clinic. There
was also a large Italian pharmaceutical company (since bankrupt!) that
wanted to contribute large sums of cash to GU in return for a campus
research facility. The dental clinic building was a nice fit, so the old
tenants, the dental school, were forced out. When it closed the dental
school was the only school on the GU campus that was entirely self
supporting, meaning the clinic produced enough income to fund the
educational programs. We had a huge pool of good quality patients, which is
often a problem at other schools.

T
clintonz@prodigy.net - 04 Aug 2005 19:03 GMT
> > I'm pretty sure Georgetown dental school closed some years ago.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> T

Ok. So I guess it was considered a pretty good dental school.
I figured it might be because Georgetown was also known for its
medical school.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 04 Aug 2005 19:32 GMT
>>>I'm pretty sure Georgetown dental school closed some years ago.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> I figured it might be because Georgetown was also known for its
> medical school.

    I'm sure Georgetown was a great dental school.  That's what all the
Georgetown grads have told me. ;-)
    This thing about ranking or rating dental schools is probably less
useful than it seems.  Anyone who has not either taught at two or more
schools for a significant period of time (or attended two or more as
students) would not even be able to give a meaningful RELATIVE rating,
much less an academic critique.
    What is sometimes done is to use raw statistics such as rate of failure
to graduate, failure rate on state board exams, etc., but IMO the
validity of many of these tests are themselves open to question.
    Of course, the AADS does credential schools.  But aside from certain
hard statistics such as numerical clinical requirements, student/teacher
ratios etc., there is evidence that some other influences (such as
politics) play a role.
    When I was at NYUCD (1973-76), the schools credentials were lowerd to
"provisional accreditation"--2 steps below full accreditation and just
one step above unapproved.  It was an open secret that this was a
conscious decision to pressure the university (which had promised the
dental school a new building for years) to finally come up with the
money.  Eventually they did, and we got our full accreditation back.
    One thing I can say unequivocally is that the atmosphere at different
schools can be very different, and this should be a major factor in
choosing a school.  NYU for years before I attended (and years after,
though this may have eventually changed) was well-known for an
atmosphere of fear and mutual mistrust between the students, faculty and
administration.  This changed somewhat when Donald Giddon became the
dean about 1975--things became better between the students and the
administration, and worse (if possible) between the administration and
the faculty.  This is not the kind of thing you'll know from reading a
relative ranking of dental schools (Michigan was #1 when I was in
school) but you MIGHT get some insights by speaking to students, recent
grads, and (if possible) faculty and administration.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Tony Bad - 04 Aug 2005 20:13 GMT
> I'm sure Georgetown was a great dental school.  That's what all the
> Georgetown grads have told me. ;-)

Darn straight!!!!

I agree with your comments on the ranking or rating of schools, although I
have been quite unimpressed with many graduates of what the call
"comprehensive care" type programs. These are ones where instead of a
certain number of required procedures, the student treats the needs of a
small number of patients. While this may give one experience in addressing
the long term needs of a patient, people are getting through dental school
nevere having completed a bunch of procedures. Kind of scary!

T
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 04 Aug 2005 20:20 GMT
>>I'm sure Georgetown was a great dental school.  That's what all the
>>Georgetown grads have told me. ;-)
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> T

     When I taught at NYU ('79-'81), there was a "family practice" module,
in which I participated.  At the time, it was just a small part of the
clinical experience--carrying patients through all phases of needed
treatment, rather than being matched with patients through the patient
assignment office for clinical requirements in the individual
departments.  The instructors were supposed to rotate through the
individual departments in order to become acquainted with the
departmental curricula.
    I actually have no idea what's going on there now.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Tony Bad - 04 Aug 2005 20:26 GMT
> >>I'm sure Georgetown was a great dental school.  That's what all the
> >>Georgetown grads have told me. ;-)
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Steve

Such programs were a needed addition to programs where care was solely
completed in assembly line style, but now it seems to have swung too far the
other way. I spoke with a young dentist recently who never did any removable
prosthetics and had never placed a bridge longer than 3 units. That isn't
good preparation in my book.

I won't say what school he went to!

T
W_B - 04 Aug 2005 21:37 GMT
> I spoke with a young dentist recently who never did any removable
>prosthetics and had never placed a bridge longer than 3 units. That isn't
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>T

The Joe Bob Briggs school of Vocational Dentistry in Belize ?
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Tony Bad - 04 Aug 2005 21:39 GMT
> > I spoke with a young dentist recently who never did any removable
> >prosthetics and had never placed a bridge longer than 3 units. That isn't
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The Joe Bob Briggs school of Vocational Dentistry in Belize ?
> --

Actually one mentioned in this very thread!

T
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 04 Aug 2005 21:39 GMT
> Such programs were a needed addition to programs where care was solely
> completed in assembly line style, but now it seems to have swung too far the
> other way. I spoke with a young dentist recently who never did any removable
> prosthetics

!!!!

Steve

 and had never placed a bridge longer than 3 units. That isn't
> good preparation in my book.
>
> I won't say what school he went to!
>
> T

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Tony Bad - 04 Aug 2005 20:03 GMT
> Ok. So I guess it was considered a pretty good dental school.
> I figured it might be because Georgetown was also known for its
> medical school.

It was a good school, but as someone wrote, you can have good dentists from
bad schools, and bad ones from good schools. When I was always there I was
amazed how many schools have patients that are people who can't afford other
care. At GU most of the patients I had were government employees, and could
have gone elsewhere, but came because of the quality of care. It was a good
school, which made its passing even more bothersome.

T
clintonz@prodigy.net - 02 Aug 2005 21:10 GMT
> Hi folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> schools are not ranked.  Please share your knowledge as well as your
> opinion on these two schools.

Howard is a school in DC, I believe whose enrollment is primarily
African-American. I believe that  it may be considered the
"harvard" of African American schools. I am sure that many well
known people have graduated from there. I also know a guy who
went to medical school there after getting a degree in engineering
and couldn't get in anywhere else. I don't know how that worked
out but it sounded like the course was fairly challenging.

The Univeristy of Maryland is a huge school, probably over
30,000 students. They have one of the best engineering and phyics
graduate programs in the country and undoubtedly a lot of research
funding, but are considered average undergraduate in terms of
acceptance. I do know one individaul who went there with a full
scholarship, had an 800 on his math SATs and still found it
academically challenging.

The UMD also apparetnly has an extensive oral surgery program
because their center in baltimore is the main univeristy oral
surgery group in the state even though Johns Hopkins is nearby.
Dave King - 03 Aug 2005 15:41 GMT
>> Hi folks,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>and couldn't get in anywhere else. I don't know how that worked
>out but it sounded like the course was fairly challenging.

I have two colleagues that graduated from both Howards dental school
and its oral surgery program. Neither have become board certified and
in fact, the one fella has failed the written portion three or four
times. He had to remediate some of his training to be eligible to take
that exam again. The other kinda gave up too. Ofcourse one can argue
'you get out what you put in' but I would chose Maryland over Howard
in a heartbeat.

>The Univeristy of Maryland is a huge school, probably over
>30,000 students. They have one of the best engineering and phyics
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>because their center in baltimore is the main univeristy oral
>surgery group in the state even though Johns Hopkins is nearby.

A very fine OMFS training program.
Jacob - 03 Aug 2005 03:49 GMT
From what I've heard over the years, the University of Maryland is an
outstanding school!  I'd think it's less expensive also, being a state
school, and assuming you live in Maryland.  I've known many dentists who
graduated from U of MD.  I know only one dentist who graduated from Howard,
and I don't think I'd want to have him work on my teeth -- but that's a
sample of 1 person.  Dental schools are ranked, but not "officially" and the
data is not available to the public.  I don't know the ratings for these
schools, however.
> Hi folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> schools are not ranked.  Please share your knowledge as well as your
> opinion on these two schools.
Charlie - 03 Aug 2005 22:23 GMT
I've taught dental postdocs for over 20 years.  Maryland is a much better
school than Howard.

Having said that, however, I will say that I have had good docs from crappy
programs.

Georgetown dental closed about 15 years ago.
W_B - 03 Aug 2005 23:09 GMT
That pretty much shoots down CubicZirconia's theory.

Just like his other ones.

>I've taught dental postdocs for over 20 years.  Maryland is a much better
>school than Howard.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Georgetown dental closed about 15 years ago.

>>     I'm pretty sure Georgetown dental school closed some years ago.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>dental school was in fact a good program I would not expect it
>to close.

--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
clintonz@prodigy.net - 03 Aug 2005 23:53 GMT
> That pretty much shoots down CubicZirconia's theory.
>
> Just like his other ones.

What theory? My dentist was already praciticing in DC in 80, apparently
after practicng for several years in bingamton. He was abot 57 in 2003
so in 80 he would be, around 35. He graduated from Georgetown probably
around 70. What the heck are you talking about?
Let's hear it or try to keep you mouth shut more often.
W_B - 04 Aug 2005 16:08 GMT
>> That pretty much shoots down CubicZirconia's theory.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>around 70. What the heck are you talking about?
>Let's hear it or try to keep you mouth shut more often.

This theory:

>but if Georgetown
>dental school was in fact a good program I would not expect it
>to close.

>Georgetown dental closed about 15 years ago.

I rest my case.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
 
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