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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / July 2005State of British dentistry
Dear All, I'm a journalist working on the Sunday Times magazine in London, and have just begun work on a major study of British dentistry. Why are our dentists such a joke? Would any of you experts out there be prepared to talk to me? Many thanks, Richard Johnson So long as you are up front about what your bias is and how you intend to use the information, then you can ask away.  Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > Dear All, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Richard Johnson > So long as you are up front about what your bias is and how you intend to > use the information, then you can ask away. Call me a cynic, but I can't help but wondering if a guy named Dick Johnson is on the level. T >> So long as you are up front about what your bias is and how you intend to >> use the information, then you can ask away. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >T Good catch ! That 'whooshed' me... -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >> So long as you are up front about what your bias is and how you intend to >> use the information, then you can ask away. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >T Careful. One of Australia's best-ever racing car drivers was Dick Johnson. (I say was because he has retired, not because he died or anything.) I have a DJ souvenir mug (but the handle broke off). SignaturePeter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com > >> So long as you are up front about what your bias is and how you intend to > >> use the information, then you can ask away. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Johnson. (I say was because he has retired, not because he died or > anything.) I have a DJ souvenir mug (but the handle broke off). I apologize for even bringing it up, as it turns out this is indeed a real person. Unfortunately it is one of those names that is often used as a joke. Here in the US there was a race driver (though certainly not one of best ever) named Dick Trickle...now that sounds like something that requires a round of antibiotics! T >> >> So long as you are up front about what your bias is and how you intend >to [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >T "Peter Rooter" ? C&C -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>Call me a cynic, but I can't help but wondering if a guy named Dick Johnson >>is on the level. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Johnson. (I say was because he has retired, not because he died or >anything.) I have a DJ souvenir mug (but the handle broke off). You broke your Dick Johnson ? Bet that hurt. <couldn't resist> -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > So long as you are up front about what your bias is and how you intend to > use the information, then you can ask away. I think he's been very up front. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >So long as you are up front about what your bias is and how you intend to >use the information, then you can ask away. I'll second that. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Dear All, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Richard Johnson It's not necessarily the dentists who are the joke, but the NHS fee schedule... Dear All, Not sure about how to declare what my "bias" is. I want to know why our national health service dentistry has such a bad reputation. And why even the mexicans laugh at our teeth. I want to know about private profiteering. About the quality of treatment, and the number of complaints. And I want to know about the real state of dentistry in Britain. I'm looking to learn -- no "bias" that i'm aware of............. -- Richard Johnson I could tell you a story about a resident of the UK who had to fly over to Michigan to get his mouth straightened up because the UK dentist was worse than lousy, and no other dentist this person consulted knew how to handle his case. NHS is a huge part of the problem. It encourages crappy work and provides incentive for all sorts of unfortunate schemes for office to try to make enough money to put food on the table. One of my patients moved to London. This person still returns here for dental treatment. Refuses to get dental care there. Upon moving to London, as soon as this person smiled, the locals would always say, "Hey, are you from the US?" That was before this person spoke. Unfortunately, these types of things give the UK system a bad name which may or may not be deserved. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > Dear All, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Richard Johnson >I could tell you a story about a resident of the UK who had to fly over to >Michigan to get his mouth straightened up because the UK dentist was worse [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Unfortunately, these types of things give the UK system a bad name which may >or may not be deserved. How about these are two examples of a larger problem ? -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Upon moving to London, >>as soon as this person smiled, the locals would always say, "Hey, are you >>from the US?" That was before this person spoke. The good ole UK, where teeth are optional. (old joke) -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com If anyone has a chance to watch (again or for the first time) the movie "Hair" (1979), see what you notice about the "smiles" on the casts' faces. Webby > I could tell you a story about a resident of the UK who had to fly over to > Michigan to get his mouth straightened up because the UK dentist was worse [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > > > Richard Johnson We don't get the full exposure of British television and movie stars, but far too many of the ones we see are depicted with very poor teeth. Probably helps to build the image in the average person's mind that teeth are not important. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > If anyone has a chance to watch (again or for the first time) the movie > "Hair" (1979), see what you notice about the "smiles" on the casts' [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> > >> > Richard Johnson http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079261/plotsummary Plot Summary for Hair (1979) This movie, based on cult Broadway musical of the '60ties, tells a story about Claude, young man from Oklahoma who comes to New York City. There he strikes up a friendship with the group of hippies, led by Berger, and falls in love with Sheila, girl from the rich family. However, their happines is short because Claude must go to Vietnam war. Webby ;-) > We don't get the full exposure of British television and movie stars, but > far too many of the ones we see are depicted with very poor teeth. Probably [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > >> > > >> > Richard Johnson > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079261/plotsummary > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Webby ;-) By what stretch of the imagination was "Hair" a "cult" musical? It ran in a mainstream theater for years, spawned a well-reviewed movie released by a major studio by a major director, a hit sound track and several top-40 pop hits? Steve >>We don't get the full exposure of British television and movie stars, but >>far too many of the ones we see are depicted with very poor teeth. Probably [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >>>>> >>>>>Richard Johnson SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 Steve, how do 5 a and b fit? I think it was as unpopular with some as it was popular with others. I don't know that "usually small group" would apply without a deeper look. But still, my point was more about how different smiles/teeth looked in 1979. Have you watched it lately? Webby ;-) Main Entry: cult Pronunciation: 'k< Function: noun Usage: often attributive Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL 1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP 2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents 3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents 4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults> 5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion > > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079261/plotsummary > > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > >>>>> > >>>>>Richard Johnson > Steve, how do 5 a and b fit? I think it was as unpopular with some as > it was popular with others. I don't know that "usually small group" > would apply without a deeper look. Point taken. There are people who like Andrew Lloyd Weber and hate Stephen Sondheim, impossible as it seems to me. Unfortunately, the instinctive image of the word "cult" changed for me (and probably others) after Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson, etc. > But still, my point was more about how different smiles/teeth looked in > 1979. Have you watched it lately? Honestly, I never have. I really should, and perhaps I will. Steve > Webby ;-) > [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Richard Johnson SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 Truth be said, you can get very good treatment at London, as long as you visit a respectable PRIVATE dentist. If you visit a NHS dentist on the other hand... chances are much lower that you'll get decent treatment and even if you manage to find someone good you'll be presented with the usual conveyor belt options (10-minute amalgams, 30-minute crowns etc). Can't blame them - they're doing what they have to do to avoid going bankrupt. George > Truth be said, you can get very good treatment at London, as long as > you visit a respectable PRIVATE dentist. If you visit a NHS dentist on [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > George Is a private dentist in the UK so much more expensive than in the USA? Webby No they're probably less expensive than in the USA, but we don't have the many dental insurance options you have. George > No they're probably less expensive than in the USA, but we don't have > the many dental insurance options you have. > > George Dental insurance options ... well, I'll stand back and let all the others comment upon that topic. It's important. Webby I know what the others will say. But dental insurance is a necessary evil unless they come up with a revolutionary cheap way of patching teeth. Steve, WB and the rest of the gang have been dealing with the "good" insurance. Try dealing with the NHS! George > I know what the others will say. But dental insurance is a necessary > evil unless they come up with a revolutionary cheap way of patching > teeth. Steve, WB and the rest of the gang have been dealing with the > "good" insurance. Try dealing with the NHS! > > George How much does "good" insurance for dentistry cost? I don't know. I don't have a plan; never have and likely never will. How much does medical insurance cost? It costs a great deal for "good" insurance. Medical insurance is a necessity; one that too many Americans do not have for any number of reasons. Webby In article <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-AB7FFA.13300021072005@news-rdr-01.socal. rr.com>, > > I know what the others will say. But dental insurance is a necessary > > evil unless they come up with a revolutionary cheap way of patching [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Webby As a society, we don't really need medical insurance for the day to day colds and minor illnesses. We need it for hospitalization, emergency care and surgery, and basically we need it for catastrophic protection. I didn't mean to take the discussion in that direction. I was just curious how much more or less a private dentist in the UK is compared the the USA. Webby I agree with SB fully here. We need insurance to make things affordable, not to make them free. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > In article > <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-AB7FFA.13300021072005@news-rdr-01.socal. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Webby > I know what the others will say. But dental insurance is a necessary > evil unless they come up with a revolutionary cheap way of patching > teeth. Steve, WB and the rest of the gang have been dealing with the > "good" insurance. Try dealing with the NHS! > > George I don't view it as a necessary evil. Folks could lose their dental benefits and perhaps see an incremental rise in wages. Most of the folks getting decent dental insurance aren't poor anyway. The only thing it's got going for it is tax advantaged in the states. Maybe you'd come out ahead if your teeth are consistently bad. But considering that most I've seen have yearly maximum benefits of $1000-$2500, this is hardly a benefit that will prevent most from going bankrupt--certainly not equivalent to coverage for catastrophic medical expenses. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >I know what the others will say. But dental insurance is a necessary >evil unless they come up with a revolutionary cheap way of patching >teeth. Steve, WB and the rest of the gang have been dealing with the >"good" insurance. Try dealing with the NHS! > >George Nah... If dentistry in the US becomes socialized I will remain private or retire. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com I cannot envision a government system which runs efficiently and is affordable. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... >I know what the others will say. But dental insurance is a necessary > evil unless they come up with a revolutionary cheap way of patching > teeth. Steve, WB and the rest of the gang have been dealing with the > "good" insurance. Try dealing with the NHS! > > George If you are who you say you are and you are serious about the article, mail me and I can discuss this with you and put you in contact with a lot of British dentists. George (groundtwenty@yahoo.gr) > Dear All, > > I'm a journalist working on the Sunday Times magazine in London, and have > just begun work on a major study of British dentistry. Why are our dentists > such a joke? Would any of you experts out there be prepared to talk to me? I'm a Brit living in Belgium for the last 6 years. The quality of dental service here seems so much better than I experienced in the UK. I think if I move back to the UK I might even keep my Belgian dentist - or perhaps find one nearer the airport and fly over on Ryanair or something - make a nice day out!. The doctors here are first class as well. I laughed at the fuss made about appointments during the UK election. My doctor doesn't have a receptionist because you don't need to make an appointment to see her. You just turn up. Sometimes you have to wait (Friday evenings for example) but even with an appointment I had to wait in the UK because they were always running late. Several times in Belgium I've arrived to find nobody else waiting and I've gone straight in to see the doctor. Typically appointments last 25 mins. You have to pay 18 Euro for a doctors appointment and for meds but you get some of that back from your Mutual Society. It's hard to work out how the costs compare overall. Belgium has higher taxes but also higher allowances. It would be interesting to know how much the dental/medical system here costs the country as a percentage of GDP compared to the UK. Colin > Dear All, > > I'm a journalist working on the Sunday Times magazine in London, and have > just begun work on a major study of British dentistry. Why are our dentists > such a joke? Would any of you experts out there be prepared to talk to me? This you? http://www.rjsj.demon.co.uk/articles/sundaytimes/ Richard Johnson is an award-winning journalist and broadcaster living in London. He presents Full on Food - the peak-time food programme - for BBC2, and has written and presented radio documentaries about everything from soap opera to exorcism. His journalism appears regularly in the Sunday Times and the Guardian, and he has a monthly column in Olive magazine. >> Dear All, >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Richard Johnson is......... yup, it's him. I checked it out this AM, got too busy to post. And since the heat index in KC was 105 today, so of course had to play golf in the PM. carabelli > This you? > > http://www.rjsj.demon.co.uk/articles/sundaytimes/ -- Yes, that's me. I'm looking for more practical examples, if possible. The American perception of British dentistry seems a little outdated. But I can't work out if it's fair. And is the NHS payment system fair -- for dentist, or for patient? Does anyone have first-hand experience to talk about? Many thanks for all this.......... -- Richard Everything I have seen, heard or read would suggest that the NHS has destroyed the quality of dentistry in the UK. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > > >> This you? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Richard >> This you? >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >dentist, or for patient? Does anyone have first-hand experience to talk >about? They are mostly American here so you won't get too far with personal experience of dentists. From a patient's perspective I found when I was a free NHS patient.. ie on benefits therefore with totally free treatment, the treatment offered was very basic. When I had a toothache I was offered an extraction and nothing else. I declined and went private elsewhere and had a root canal etc. NHS patients aren't given all the options it seems to me. I would never go NHS again. > >> This you? > >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > and had a root canal etc. NHS patients aren't given all the options > it seems to me. I would never go NHS again. How does the NHS service for dental care work for children and ... is it, pregnant women???? Do you know??? I remember something about that but don't recall any details. Webby >> >> This you? >> >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >it, pregnant women???? Do you know??? I remember something about that >but don't recall any details. It is completely free for children and for pregnant women. They tend to receive good treatment and options because they are future potential private patients. In some areas, mine included, you can't get an NHS dentist as an adult.. nobody offers the service.. and when a child leaves school they will be offered private status and if they refuse they will be kicked out of the practice. To be clear.. a normal paying adult.. ie one who is in employment, and treated under the NHS will pay a certain low rate and the dentist gets the rest back from the government. Most dentists say it isn't enough and refuse to treat patients on the NHS. It is because we are historically used to having low dentist rates (and our medical care in other areas is free) that people then choose not to attend a dentist at all. Nobody I know has dental insurance, it just isn't something in my experience, so I pay the full price for dental treatment. As I am not at all wealthy, my options are therefore restricted. I had a tooth extracted because it broke badly, but I have not considered having it replaced with a bridge or implant because I couldn't afford it. This will no doubt have an effect on my other teeth but that's something we have come to accept. Thank god for the NHS in other areas though. I have an artificial eye and have all fitting and treatment for that free. Having heard about how many Americans can't afford to have an eye fitted and so wear a patch, it puts it all into perspective for me. I can cope with the way things are here and am glad I don't live in America. |
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