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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / August 2005NTI and other splints
I have seen the NTI come up often on sci.med.dentistry when splints are discussed, with the comments being (essentially) universally favorable. A friend of mine is a dentist, so I asked him what he knows about it. This was his response: "It is an anterior splint that is for the anterior segment. I like the full coverage splint made in centric relation. We sometimes give people a small anterior deprogrammer to prove that the diagnosis is skeletal muscular." Since I am not a dentist, I don't completely understand what my friend is talking about. Even so, I do get the impression that he doesn't think that the NTI is really the best type of splint. Is there someplace that I can get objective information on splints? Actual, peer-reviewed, published research papers are preferable, since I prefer to draw my own conclusions. Phil > I have seen the NTI come up often on sci.med.dentistry when splints are > discussed, with the comments being (essentially) universally favorable. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > a small anterior deprogrammer to prove that the diagnosis is skeletal > muscular." If you're not a dentist, you are a quick study on the topic. Your ability to quote your dentist-friend is impressive! > Since I am not a dentist, I don't completely understand what my friend > is talking about. Even so, I do get the impression that he doesn't [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Phil Webby In article <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-A8AFC1.12514308072005@news-rdr-01.socal. rr.com>, > > I have seen the NTI come up often on sci.med.dentistry when splints are > > discussed, with the comments being (essentially) universally favorable. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Webby See Dr. Steve's comment. Webby >I have seen the NTI come up often on sci.med.dentistry when splints are >discussed, with the comments being (essentially) universally favorable. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Phil Your Buddy does not understand what an NTI is nor how it works. .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. > Your Buddy does not understand what an NTI is nor how it works. > .. > Stephen > Troy, Michigan, USA Hello Dr. Steve, Yes, well, I kind of suspected that. Not sure how I knew, considering that I am not a dentist. Intuition, perhaps. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. Phil Send him here for a friendly discussion. He will probably get irritated at us at first, then slowly come around. That is what happened to me and to virtually every other dentist I know using it. >> Your Buddy does not understand what an NTI is nor how it works. >> .. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Phil > Send him here for a friendly discussion. He will probably get irritated at > us at first, then slowly come around. That is what happened to me and to > virtually every other dentist I know using it. Dr. Steve is an upfront guy. He was even willing to read "that book"... and that's a story in itself too! Webby > >> Your Buddy does not understand what an NTI is nor how it works. > >> .. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > Phil I spoke to the other author of that "book" via email a few times this past week. Sounds like things are going well over there, too. >> Send him here for a friendly discussion. He will probably get irritated >> at [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> > >> > Phil > I spoke to the other author of that "book" via email a few times this past > week. Sounds like things are going well over there, too. Yes, they are! W. > "The Webby" <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam@san.rr.com> wrote in message > news:nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-D5BA2C.09475709072005@news-rdr-02.socal.rr [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >> > > >> > Phil >>I have seen the NTI come up often on sci.med.dentistry when splints are >>discussed, with the comments being (essentially) universally favorable. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >Stephen >Troy, In a rare weekend reply W_B replies and augments. (that's #5 to you musicians) Here's the basics, a 'full arch' splint only allows for more intense nocturnal/diurnal clenching. The NTI prevents clenching (parafunction) entirely. Most of what my dental colleagues (of my generation) were taught about bruxism/clenching/parafunction/occlusion is just plain wrong. The profession as a rule is slow to accept new theories (that is a good thing generally) until empirical and scientific evidence is repeated many times. I urge your 'buddy' to investigate the NTI without prejudice in regard to thinking 'outside the box'. Since Dr. Steve, Troy made an NTI for me and it was adopted in my practice, about two months later; I have not made a full arch splint since. That was over two years ago. In fact, switched all of my *full arch splint* patients over to the NTI @ no cost to them. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >In fact, switched all of my *full arch splint* patients over to the >NTI @ no cost to them. Good for you I once had a full arch splint made a long time ago. I didn't use it tho. But now I've decided the NTI is the REAL device I need is this correct? If it is constructed correctly and you give it an honest try, I think you will be quite happy with the results. Fawks >>In fact, switched all of my *full arch splint* patients over to the >>NTI @ no cost to them. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > is this correct? > >In fact, switched all of my *full arch splint* patients over to the > >NTI @ no cost to them. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > is this correct? Very low probability that you will have problems; YOU said it yourself: I didn't use it tho. I find this to be the case for all the full splints I have done. I am a dentist, so my motivation was quite high, but even so, it only took me two nights to get enough used to my own so that it wouldn't be found next to my bed in the morning. You _do_ need to keep your followups to make sure the device is doing what it is supposed to, but that is it. I know about this first hand, because I had to adjust my own. This is important. You could ask your buddy dentist to make one for himself and try it out for a couple of weeks or months; then make one for you. Or find a dentist who _does_ place NTI's and ASK how long ago he made one for him or her self. If s/he hesitates, move on. I firmly believe that the best prescriber for the NTI should have had first-hand experience before going to the general public with it. You have to know what to expect. Cheers SP  SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH >>In fact, switched all of my *full arch splint* patients over to the >>NTI @ no cost to them. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >is this correct? It's what many of my colleagues and me think. Yes. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >>In fact, switched all of my *full arch splint* patients over to the > >>NTI @ no cost to them. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com But W_B, how can you be certain that just because some unknown dentist prescribed a "full arch splint" for that patient a long time ago that the person actually needs an NTI? TW >> >>In fact, switched all of my *full arch splint* patients over to the >> >>NTI @ no cost to them. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >TW Because "full arch splints" don't work. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >> >>In fact, switched all of my *full arch splint* patients over to the > >> >>NTI @ no cost to them. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Yes, I understand that full arch splints don't work. But maybe the person's condition was not in need of an NTI had such a treatment been available "a long time ago". I'm trying to point out that it's easy to just say "get an NTI" for just about anything because the thinking is that it probably can't hurt. But maybe the person never needed any sort of a splint regardless of whether it is safe and effective for various symptoms. Do you see what I'm trying to get at here? .... TW > > >But W_B, how can you be certain that just because some unknown dentist > > >prescribed a "full arch splint" for that patient a long time ago that [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > TW ..... So, you don't think it would be a good idea to put NTI's on the menu at McDonalds? ;-) SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH > > > >But W_B, how can you be certain that just because some unknown dentist > > > >prescribed a "full arch splint" for that patient a long time ago that [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > menu at McDonalds? ;-) > SP Exactly!!!! Webby (TW) > > > Yes, I understand that full arch splints don't work. But maybe the > > > person's condition was not in need of an NTI had such a treatment been [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Webby (TW) I believe Dr. Oakeson could say a thing or two intelligent here. Does anybody know him? SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH > > > > Yes, I understand that full arch splints don't work. But maybe the > > > > person's condition was not in need of an NTI had such a treatment been [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > SP I've never met Dr. Oakeson but I know someone who knows him quite well and also knows me *very well*. TW It's going on 5 years for me (though I made my own NTI since Michigan was a few miles out of the way). :-) Fawks > Since Dr. Steve, Troy made an NTI for me and it was adopted > in my practice, about two months later; [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > -- > W_B Too bad you aren't a big enough fan of the All Star Game to attend it. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > > It's going on 5 years for me (though I made my own NTI since [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> -- >> W_B Depends on your definition of 'baseball fan'. I've attended 7 baseball games during the last week and have games to watch Friday and Sunday (Ban Johnson League). The closest ballpark was about an hours drive. I didn't get to bed until after midnight on several nights. ;-) Fawks > Too bad you aren't a big enough fan of the All Star Game to attend it. > Depends on your definition of 'baseball fan'. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > Too bad you aren't a big enough fan of the All Star Game to attend it. Do any of you remember when there was the big push to put athletes into "splints" to enhance their sport performance? ... football, baseball ... not sure what else. (Baseball and dentistry?) TW ;-) >>Depends on your definition of 'baseball fan'. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > TW ;-) Yeah, the MORA (mandibular orthopedic repositioning device). Smelled like "applied kinesiology", tasted like chicken. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > >>Depends on your definition of 'baseball fan'. > >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Steve !!! TW ;-) >> Do any of you remember when there was the big push to put athletes into >> "splints" to enhance their sport performance? ... football, baseball [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Steve Smells Like Teen Spirit -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE > > Do any of you remember when there was the big push to put athletes into > > "splints" to enhance their sport performance? ... football, baseball [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Steve Did this device work by selectively grinding it down, section by section over a few weeks until there was nothing left? I have a patient who had a splint that was made like that and she swears it cured her of pain about the head. SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH > Did this device work by selectively grinding it down, section by section > over a few weeks until there was nothing left? I have a patient who had > a splint that was made like that and she swears it cured her of pain > about the head. > SP I don't know how it worked. I don't know IF it worked. All I know is that this Brooklyn orthodontist (I think his name was Richard Kaufman) took credit for it, and supposedly had outfitted the Detroit Lions football team with the devices. This was maybe 20-25 years ago. Steve SignatureCut the nonsense to reply >> Did this device work by selectively grinding it down, section by section >> over a few weeks until there was nothing left? I have a patient who had [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Steve Seems my memory was at least partially correct. Kaufman was in a study club I belonged to (now defunct). He was an outgoing, pleasant guy with more than a bit of huckster smell about him. I kinda liked him. http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1988/articles/july_88/lovers/ Steve SignatureCut the nonsense to reply > >> Did this device work by selectively grinding it down, section by section > >> over a few weeks until there was nothing left? I have a patient who had [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Steve 'K... check it when I get back. Keep Well! SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH yup >> Depends on your definition of 'baseball fan'. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > TW ;-) I was just thinking of the type of major league fan who would travel to Detroit for the recent All Star Game. There was a nice view of the Opera House over the center field fence. > Depends on your definition of 'baseball fan'. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >> Too bad you aren't a big enough fan of the All Star Game to attend it. > >>I have seen the NTI come up often on sci.med.dentistry when splints are > >>discussed, with the comments being (essentially) universally favorable. > >>A friend of mine is a dentist, so I asked him what he knows about it. > > In a rare weekend reply W_B replies and augments. > (that's #5 to you musicians) What augmented? You into flatted fifths or what? > In fact, switched all of my *full arch splint* patients over to the > NTI @ no cost to them. > W_B I have done the same. I had a few splint cases where the patients were not wearing them regularly. Virtually everybody asks the same question: won't I swallow it? No, you won't. It is molded solidly with acrylic to your own teeth, and you test its retention each night before going to bed. I use the standard long version exclusively, since it doesn't need to be so tightly placed, with retention on four teeth instead of two. Cheers SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH >> >>I have seen the NTI come up often on sci.med.dentistry when splints are >> >>discussed, with the comments being (essentially) universally favorable. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >What augmented? You into flatted fifths or what? As a matter of fact. >> In fact, switched all of my *full arch splint* patients over to the >> NTI @ no cost to them. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Cheers >SP Well done Pipey ! -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >> In a rare weekend reply W_B replies and augments. > >> (that's #5 to you musicians) > >> > >What augmented? You into flatted fifths or what? > > > As a matter of fact. .... Yes?...... > >> In fact, switched all of my *full arch splint* patients over to the > >> NTI @ no cost to them. > >I have done the same. I had a few splint cases where the patients were > >not wearing them regularly. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Well done Pipey ! Yes, thank you... You might want to try the standard long version. I find it more comfortable and I can still close my mouth when I sleep if I want. You can put extra acrylic in the short version and mould it arond the laterals like DrS does (what does _he_ know???) but I find that the wall you form on the labial and the lingual is not strong enough if it is only in acrylique. Another benefit is that if you have a malaligned tooth, it is easy to grind the Lexan down away from that spot, yet you still have enough retention from the rest of the appliance. If I was an airline pilot right about now, I'd be wearing my NTI while on the job and when hanging around the airports. I would also wear it when going to the SuperSexe to see naked dancing girls. Cheers <hic> ESSsss Peeeee SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH >> In a rare weekend reply W_B replies and augments. >> (that's #5 to you musicians) > What augmented? You into flatted fifths or what? I have been trying to figure that comment out. George, you will have to explain it to me. >>> In a rare weekend reply W_B replies and augments. >>> (that's #5 to you musicians) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >George, you will have to explain it to me. It has to do with chord theory. For you it would be arpeggios or scales A major chord = 1, 3, 5 minor = 1, b3, 5 Diminished = 1, b3, b5 augmented = 1, 3, #5, b7 augmented seventh = 1, 3, #5, b7 minor 7th flat 5th = 1, b3, b5, b7 Here are some non-commercial links http://library.thinkquest.org/15413/theory/theory.htm http://library.thinkquest.org/15413/theory/chords.htm -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Ahhh ! Specific scales which I don't use. Am just trying to learn third position fingering again after 35 years. Interesting hand and finger cramps from those exercises. thanks >>>> In a rare weekend reply W_B replies and augments. >>>> (that's #5 to you musicians) [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Ahhh ! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > thanks You wanna start an argument go into rec.music.classical.guitar and ask if the Segovia scales are any good. Steve SignatureCut the nonsense to reply >Ahhh ! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >thanks There are some hand exercises that you can do. One is squeezing a tennis ball between your thumb and finger, one finger at a time. This will improve your strength and dexterity. They also make these little finger workout devices, you can get them in almost any good guitar store. >>>>> In a rare weekend reply W_B replies and augments. >>>>> (that's #5 to you musicians) [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> Take out the G'RBAGE >> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com My problem seems to be too much strength. The left thumb tends to cramp up just like a temporalis muscle in full clench, as I "clench" the neck of the instrument. Then, when I try to move my elbow under the instrument to reach way over and get the third position on the G string, the thumb tries to grab on real hard. It gets better every week. Progress is being made. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>Ahhh ! [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >My problem seems to be too much strength. The left thumb tends to cramp up >just like a temporalis muscle in full clench, as I "clench" the neck of the >instrument. Then, when I try to move my elbow under the instrument to reach >way over and get the third position on the G string, the thumb tries to grab >on real hard. It gets better every week. Progress is being made. Doesn't sound like too much strength to me. Try the tennis ball (or firm rubber ball of approximate same size) Playing a stringed instrument is more like pinching than grabbing. Of course if you are 'clenching' you may need a NTI for your hand.... <hehe> -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Doesn't sound like too much strength to me. > Try the tennis ball [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Of course if you are 'clenching' you may need a NTI > for your hand.... <hehe> Try the Karate ring thing. Also pushups on your fingers are good. And hanging on the under wing strut of a Cessna 175 at 4000 ft without a parachute. Cheers SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH > My problem seems to be too much strength. The left thumb tends to cramp up > just like a temporalis muscle in full clench, as I "clench" the neck of the > instrument. Then, when I try to move my elbow under the instrument to reach > way over and get the third position on the G string, the thumb tries to grab > on real hard. It gets better every week. Progress is being made. You could keep a guit at the clinic, and everytime you sit down to go online, you squeeze down a full barre G7 or G13 and hold it for a minute... SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH >>My problem seems to be too much strength. The left thumb tends to cramp up >>just like a temporalis muscle in full clench, as I "clench" the neck of the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > minute... > SP That's just mean! But you do bring up a good point. Way back when I first started playing, barres were almost impossible. At a certain point I just "got it" and it didn't take brut force. None of this should take brute force--we want our hands to hold up a long time! Steve SignatureCut the nonsense to reply >>>My problem seems to be too much strength. The left thumb tends to cramp up >>>just like a temporalis muscle in full clench, as I "clench" the neck of the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Steve Not only that but using brute strength actually makes your fingers 'muscle bound' and in fact will decrease your speed and dexterity. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>My problem seems to be too much strength. The left thumb tends to cramp up >>>just like a temporalis muscle in full clench, as I "clench" the neck of the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Steve What is a barre ? .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. > >>>My problem seems to be too much strength. The left thumb tends to cramp > >>>up [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. I know what a ballet barre is but didn't know about a guitar barre. So I went to the great-google-god and asked. Is this it? http://www.guitarsimplified.com/ Webby >> What is a barre ? >> .. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I know what a ballet barre is but didn't know about a guitar barre. So >I went to the great-google-god and asked. Is this it? guitar_for_simlpetons.crap/ >Webby Nyet. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >> >>>My problem seems to be too much strength. The left thumb tends to cramp >> >>>up [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >Webby I see. Can't do that on my instrument .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. >Way back when I first started >>playing, barres were almost impossible. At a certain point I just "got [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >.. >Stephen A type of movable guitar chord. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>>My problem seems to be too much strength. The left thumb tends to cramp up >>>>just like a temporalis muscle in full clench, as I "clench" the neck of the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Stephen > Troy, Michigan, USA As George says, it is used to move certain chord forms up and down the neck. One finger (usually the left index finger) is placed behind the fret part way or all the way across the fingerboard. This makes the finger act to raise the pitch 1/2 step every fret you move up. This is equivalent to a device called a capo, which is clamped in place. Here is a diagram of some barre chords: http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_inside.html?cart=3330438373382248&item=1 742057&page=007 Steve > I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. SignatureCut the nonsense to reply >>>>>My problem seems to be too much strength. The left thumb tends to cramp up >>>>>just like a temporalis muscle in full clench, as I "clench" the neck of the [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >Steve IIRC SM will only be interested in intervals because you can only bow two strings max at a time on the violin ? Is that right ? Methinks that SM hasn't yet "ahh...ha..'ed" to the fact that all stringed instruments are related in some way or another. BTW, SM, the piano is a stringed instrument. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>>>>My problem seems to be too much strength. The left thumb tends to cramp up >>>>>>just like a temporalis muscle in full clench, as I "clench" the neck of the [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > >BTW, SM, the piano is a stringed instrument. I can do 3 at once with enough bow pressure. Lots of similarities .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. >>IIRC SM will only be interested in intervals because you can only bow >>two strings max at a time on the violin ? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >.. >Stephen Does that affect the finger position for the center string ? IOW is it the bow strings that *give* enough to allow 3 string contact ? -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>IIRC SM will only be interested in intervals because you can only bow >>>two strings max at a time on the violin ? [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Take out the G'RBAGE I'm guessing cajun fiddler Doug Kershaw used to do triple stops all the time--remember him? Whenever I saw him on TV the horsehair would really fly from his bow. Steve SignatureCut the nonsense to reply >>>I can do 3 at once with enough bow pressure. >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> IOW is it the bow strings that *give* enough to allow 3 string >> contact ? > I'm guessing cajun fiddler Doug Kershaw used to do triple stops all the >time--remember him? Whenever I saw him on TV the horsehair would really >fly from his bow. > >Steve Actually Doug Kershaw is my fave fiddler. A true master. Loved that non-traditional elbow cradle. Man, that guy can play. Think SM is going more for the 'classical/opera' stuff. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>>I can do 3 at once with enough bow pressure. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Think SM is going more for the 'classical/opera' stuff. You got me "pegged" .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. >>Actually Doug Kershaw is my fave fiddler. A true master. >>Loved that non-traditional elbow cradle. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Stephen >Troy pfunny -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>>>I can do 3 at once with enough bow pressure. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Stephen > Troy, Michigan, USA OK, maybe I'll start learning some Paganini duets. Steve > I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>>>IIRC SM will only be interested in intervals because you can only bow >>>>two strings max at a time on the violin ? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >Steve The "fiddlers" do a lot of double and triple stop playing. they carve their bridges almost flat across the top to facilitate this. A classical bridge will have a lot of curve to the top so that a triple stop requires a very heavy bow. If all 4 strings are to be played at nice, it is played as a tuple stop slurred into the 4th note. .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. > If all 4 strings are to be played at >nice, it is played as a tuple stop slurred into the 4th note. >.. >Stephen Troy Man, your handwriting must suck... Have actually seen it, much better than mine. Perhaps it's the character recognition that sux. Since it is a Cajun technique, would that be a racial slur ? Just wondering. <VBG> -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >> If all 4 strings are to be played at >>nice, it is played as a tuple stop slurred into the 4th note. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ><VBG> I need to stop and proof-read more. I was posting from the back yard. If all 4 strings are to be played at once, it is played as a triple stop which you slur into the 4th note. .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. >>Just wondering. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >.. >Stephen Troy Knew that, was ribbin' ya. Still I ask: "Since it is a Cajun technique, would that be a racial slur ?" <vbseg> -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE I don't quite get the joke. The etude I am practicing now has a 4 string stop on it. Tough for me to hit it right without hesitating prior to playing it. I need lots more practice. So, it is not completely Cajun. Although "fiddlers" are much more prone to triple stops than we are. Lots of double stops in classical music. >>>Just wondering. >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Take out the G'RBAGE > I don't quite get the joke. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > more prone to triple stops than we are. Lots of double stops in classical > music. I'm amazed at how well Bach's violin and other string music works in transcriptions for keyboard or guitar. Pianists and guitarists both love the "chaconne", and for guitarists at least it's viewed as something of a rite of passage--one I'm nowhere near passing. Every so often to humble myself I start working on the cello suites again... Steve >>>>Just wondering. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >>wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>Take out the G'RBAGE SignatureCut the nonsense to reply >I don't quite get the joke. We were talking about Doug Kershaw, a Cajun fiddler. He has a unique technique. A 'slur' in music is a correct term. Was making a joke about a Cajun Slur that was a racial epithet. Man, if I've got to explain it to you.... >The etude I am practicing now has a 4 string stop on it. Tough for me to >hit it right without hesitating prior to playing it. I need lots more >practice. So, it is not completely Cajun. Although "fiddlers" are much >more prone to triple stops than we are. Lots of double stops in classical >music. Guitar, 4, 5, or 6 The neck is just under 2 octaves per string (some are 2 octaves, 24 - 1/2 steps) The range of the average guitar is just under 5 octaves. Five full octave with a 24 fret model. The seven string Steve Vai model is a different story entirely. It has a low B, I think. Double stops = interval. Triple stop = triad, the basis of chords. >>>>Just wondering. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >> Take out the G'RBAGE -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >Does that affect the finger position for the center string ? no >IOW is it the bow strings that *give* enough to allow 3 string >contact ? yes (bow hair not String) .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. >>Does that affect the finger position for the center string ? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Stephen >Troy Yep, I knew that, horse hair... Have a source for that as you well know. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>Does that affect the finger position for the center string ? >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Have a source for that as you well know. I miss you guys. We need to get together again. soon. .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. >>Yep, I knew that, horse hair... >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Stephen >Troy Agreed, you are welcomed here, we just have too much on the plate to travel in the summer. We also need to visit YKW across the pond. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>Yep, I knew that, horse hair... >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >We also need to visit YKW across the pond. yes! .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. > IIRC SM will only be interested in intervals because you can only bow > two strings max at a time on the violin ? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > BTW, SM, the piano is a stringed instrument. Actually, I'd love to try out some duets with a violinist. There are some nice ones out there. Steve > -- > W_B > > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Take out the G'RBAGE SignatureCut the nonsense to reply >> IIRC SM will only be interested in intervals because you can only bow >> two strings max at a time on the violin ? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Steve give me until next summer before expecting me to keep up. .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. >> Actually, I'd love to try out some duets with a violinist. There are >>some nice ones out there. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Stephen >Troy You are a positive thinker, aren't you ? -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>> Actually, I'd love to try out some duets with a violinist. There are >>>some nice ones out there. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >You are a positive thinker, aren't you ? yes .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. >>>give me until next summer before expecting me to keep up. >>>.. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Stephen >Troy Keep practicing and give us guitar players the piece so that we may be ready for you. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>>give me until next summer before expecting me to keep up. >>>>.. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Keep practicing and give us guitar players the piece so >that we may be ready for you. It is a deal! .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. >>>IIRC SM will only be interested in intervals because you can only bow >>>two strings max at a time on the violin ? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Stephen > Troy, Michigan, USA I suck--trust me. Like most guitarists, I'm only a middling reader at best. But I'm comforted by the fact that if we do some Paganini duets, you'll have by far the tougher of it. Steve > I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>>>IIRC SM will only be interested in intervals because you can only bow >>>>two strings max at a time on the violin ? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >best. But I'm comforted by the fact that if we do some Paganini duets, >you'll have by far the tougher of it. True .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. > I suck--trust me. Like most guitarists, I'm only a middling reader at >best. But I'm comforted by the fact that if we do some Paganini duets, >you'll have by far the tougher of it. > >Steve Do you think that Zappa or Vai sucked at sight reading ? -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >> I suck--trust me. Like most guitarists, I'm only a middling reader at >>best. But I'm comforted by the fact that if we do some Paganini duets, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- > W_B Vai and Zappa were not "most guitarists". I know Zappa studied composition with Varese. I'm woefully ignorant of the output of both of these guys--something I'll have to remedy. Steve > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Take out the G'RBAGE SignatureCut the nonsense to reply >>> I suck--trust me. Like most guitarists, I'm only a middling reader at >>>best. But I'm comforted by the fact that if we do some Paganini duets, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Steve There are some things that I can try to play. There are other things that I just sit back and listen to. Admiring the mucianship of the artist. Steve Morse also ranks in my book. (Dixie Dregs, Steve Morse Band) Saw him live in a small club once. Awesome. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE I know this is obvious, but not mentioned so far: how's the action on your instrument? Makes a huge diff. >I know this is obvious, but not mentioned so far: how's the action on your >instrument? Makes a huge diff. Well at least for me, I like heavier strings (guitar) .011 or .012 for the high E, so therefore my action is higher than most electrics. it plays more like an acoustic and most other electric players have difficulty playing my SRV Strat. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>I know this is obvious, but not mentioned so far: how's the action on your >>instrument? Makes a huge diff. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it plays more like an acoustic and most other electric players > have difficulty playing my SRV Strat. buncha sissies. Steve > -- > > W_B > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com SignatureCut the nonsense to reply >>>I know this is obvious, but not mentioned so far: how's the action on your >>>instrument? Makes a huge diff. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Steve My thoughts exactly, plus the best advantage of heavier guage strings is better *tone*. Accept no substitutes. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>I know this is obvious, but not mentioned so far: how's the action on your >>instrument? Makes a huge diff. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >it plays more like an acoustic and most other electric players >have difficulty playing my SRV Strat. So far, I seem to prefer a heavy tension string in that as it seems easier to project clear notes with .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. >>>I know this is obvious, but not mentioned so far: how's the action on your >>>instrument? Makes a huge diff. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Stephen >Troy, Michigan, USA Right, but note that it is the gauge of the string (diameter) that dictates the tension required to tune the instrument to the proper note. There are limits to the gauge that can be used on any stringed instrument. BTW music theory is much easier to study on a keyboard, you may consider purchasing a musical instrument grade synthesizer. You can hook it into a stereo, you may also want to consider one with an integrated MIDI recorder, neat stuff. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>>I know this is obvious, but not mentioned so far: how's the action on your >>>>instrument? Makes a huge diff. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >You can hook it into a stereo, you may also want to consider one >with an integrated MIDI recorder, neat stuff. I am learning an etude right now that of full of accidentals. After 5-6 lines, I find my left hand needs to rest. .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. >I am learning an etude right now that of full of accidentals. After >5-6 lines, I find my left hand needs to rest. >.. >Stephen Troy Do you warm up before learning/practicing the new piece. Run through some scales, etc... ? Accidentals make my brain hurt. Can read, but not sight read. Once I learn the piece, don't need the sheets anymore. Usually use a recording, only use tablature sometimes. Back in the *olden days* we used vinyl (that got terribly scratched), and cassettes (the tape would stretch). Now with MP3's and such you got it easy. I always listen to a piece for many repeats before trying to play it. Carry on... -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>I am learning an etude right now that of full of accidentals. After >>5-6 lines, I find my left hand needs to rest. >>.. >>Stephen Troy > >Do you warm up before learning/practicing the new piece. oh yes. >Run through some scales, etc... ? yup >Accidentals make my brain hurt. They make my hand hurt >Can read, but not sight read. Salvatore can listen to music, then play it. I need the notes myself. >Once I learn the piece, don't need the sheets anymore. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Carry on... .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. >>Do you warm up before learning/practicing the new piece. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >yup Excellent >>Accidentals make my brain hurt. > >They make my hand hurt You not only have to do finger strengthening exercises you must stretch your fingers, hands, wrists as well >>Can read, but not sight read. > >Salvatore can listen to music, then play it. I need the notes myself. Then use listening before you try to play so that you know what you are trying to achieve. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >I know this is obvious, but not mentioned so far: how's the action on your >instrument? Makes a huge diff. Never heard anyone relate "action" to this instrument. This instrument is just a rental. I plan to treat myself to a new one at the end of the year. Choosing one to buy will not be easy. .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. >>I know this is obvious, but not mentioned so far: how's the action on your >>instrument? Makes a huge diff. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Stephen > Troy, Michigan, USA OK, now I'm curious. If there aren't frets, it's not a viola da gamba. Steve > I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. SignatureCut the nonsense to reply >>I know this is obvious, but not mentioned so far: how's the action on your >>instrument? Makes a huge diff. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Stephen >Troy, Michigan, USA It is embarrassingly easy, you want a Stradivarius. The bank note you pay just replaces the rental fee. Why does that sound so familiar ? <VBSEG> -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>I know this is obvious, but not mentioned so far: how's the action on your >>>instrument? Makes a huge diff. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Why does that sound so familiar ? <VBSEG> good one!! .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. > My problem seems to be too much strength. The left thumb tends to cramp up > just like a temporalis muscle in full clench, as I "clench" the neck of the > instrument. Then, when I try to move my elbow under the instrument to reach > way over and get the third position on the G string, the thumb tries to grab > on real hard. It gets better every week. Progress is being made. Stopping the strings shouldn't require brute strength. In fact, incorrect technique can lead to overuse injuries--a common problem which you'll quickly discover by looking at the guitar or other instrumental newsgroups. A good teacher will help tremendously. Remember that hand position will vary significantly depending upon the kind of instrument you're playing. For instance, if you're playing George's Strat it's considered OK to cradle the (thin) neck in the crook between your thumb and forefinger, and even to fret the sixth string with your thumb. On a classical guitar with a 52mm wide fingerboard, this could be a disaster. On a classical guitar your thumb should be on the back of the neck, directly opposite the contact your fretting finger makes with the string. The lower edge of the neck does NOT rest against the crook of your hand. Obviously, as Charlie says, your guitar's neck and frets should be in good shape, so that you can fret easily, but without your strings buzzing further up the neck. Steve SignatureCut the nonsense to reply >> My problem seems to be too much strength. The left thumb tends to cramp up >> just like a temporalis muscle in full clench, as I "clench" the neck of the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >OK to cradle the (thin) neck in the crook between your thumb and >forefinger, and even to fret the sixth string with your thumb. Thin compared to the classical. And then there's the Hendrix trick of wrapping your thumb around the neck to fret the sixth and sometimes fifth string. > On a classical guitar with a 52mm wide fingerboard, this could be a >disaster. On a classical guitar your thumb should be on the back of the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Steve -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >> My problem seems to be too much strength. The left thumb tends to cramp up >> just like a temporalis muscle in full clench, as I "clench" the neck of the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Steve My instrument has no frets. .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. >> Obviously, as Charlie says, your guitar's neck and frets should be in >>good shape, so that you can fret easily, but without your strings [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >.. >Stephen Don't fret (worry) about it. You could consider purchasing a mandolin. Tuned the same, same scale length. Main difference is that the strings are steel and doubled. Could really help with your playing. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>My problem seems to be too much strength. The left thumb tends to cramp up >>>just like a temporalis muscle in full clench, as I "clench" the neck of the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > My instrument has no frets. Don't get rude now. Steve > .. > Stephen > Troy, Michigan, USA > > I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. SignatureCut the nonsense to reply >>> Obviously, as Charlie says, your guitar's neck and frets should be in >>>good shape, so that you can fret easily, but without your strings [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> My instrument has no frets. >> .. >> Stephen > > Don't get rude now. > >Steve Played the stand up bass in middle school for the choir. Was fun. Now have a Fender Jazz bass, hecho en Mexico Changed the pots the minute I got home with it. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE > There are some hand exercises that you can do. > One is squeezing a tennis ball between your thumb and finger, > one finger at a time. This will improve your strength and dexterity. > > They also make these little finger wor |
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