Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / June 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

What happened to Joel Eichen?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
James E. - 07 Jun 2005 04:56 GMT
I have been visiting this NG from time to time, over several years. This is
the first time that I did not see and appreciate Joel's ubiquitous posts?
What happened to him?

Signature

James

carabelli - 07 Jun 2005 05:43 GMT
>I have been visiting this NG from time to time, over several years. This is
>the first time that I did not see and appreciate Joel's ubiquitous posts?
>What happened to him?

Well a few weeks ago, a certain someone complained to one of the redirecting
newsgroup feeds ( forgive my ignorance) or whatever he used to maintain
anonymity as to his real internet addy. He has posted since, but stopped
again.  A year, or maybe more, ago he disappeared for at least six months
and like the phoenix..........

I'm certain we have not heard the last from him.  He may have seemed almost
dependant upon Usenet, however based on some private communications, the man
has more that enough to keep him busy if he chooses.

carabelli
LadyLollipop - 07 Jun 2005 06:44 GMT
>I have been visiting this NG from time to time, over several years. This is
>the first time that I did not see and appreciate Joel's ubiquitous posts?
>What happened to him?

He must have finally learned his lesson after the third time of having his
account closed for telling lies and using my name, over 20,000 times.

After having two closed, one for impersonating me, he found an Italian one,
where he thought he was untouchable, and began with the same old lies. I
warned him, he laughed it off. It was closed also, based on his words.

He did come back on, but stated, it appeared the days of talking about me
appeared to be over, or something to that effect he hasn't been back since.

Of course, to hear others tell it, this is A OK,as the lies weren't told
about them, nor their name wasn't used.

I also had mercury poisoning and still have peripheral neuropathy, which
seems to be very funny to most of the dentists here who would like to deny
it can and does happen.

You may have appreciated what you call his ubiquitous posts, I call them,
blatherings.

LL/Jan
oN - 07 Jun 2005 09:01 GMT
> I also had mercury poisoning and still have peripheral neuropathy, which
> seems to be very funny to most of the dentists here who would like to deny
> it can and does happen.

Welcome to the club!

I survived bombardment on easier way.
Do you taking some homeopathy also?

I am in swimingpull twice/week and on macrobiotics.
Have you to suggest something else??

All the best,
Proka
Happy Oyster - 09 Jun 2005 17:42 GMT
>>I have been visiting this NG from time to time, over several years. This is
>>the first time that I did not see and appreciate Joel's ubiquitous posts?
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>LL/Jan

Jan Drew, one of the most criminal liars in the whole usenet, complains about
his name being abused ? And now uses the pseudonym "LadyLollipop".

What a madness...

Aribert Deckers
Signature

             Farbiges Röntgen, farbiges CT und farbiges MRT
                             
                http://www.ariplex.com/hws/hws_farb.htm

oN - 07 Jun 2005 08:56 GMT
> I have been visiting this NG from time to time, over several years. This is
> the first time that I did not see and appreciate Joel's ubiquitous posts?
> What happened to him?
>
> --
> James

Just listening some Jethro Tull somewhere.
"Stand up" or something like that :)

Proka
W_B - 07 Jun 2005 16:57 GMT
>I have been visiting this NG from time to time, over several years. This is
>the first time that I did not see and appreciate Joel's ubiquitous posts?
>What happened to him?

He left about the same time that Jan did.

Curious that.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
kureforcrohns@sbcglobal.net - 08 Jun 2005 02:24 GMT
Adjustments are part of life, and hope this is possible with Jan and Joel.
He has so much to offer.

Gail
LadyLollipop - 08 Jun 2005 08:01 GMT
> Adjustments are part of life, and hope this is possible with Jan and Joel.
> He has so much to offer.
>
> Gail

He has blatherings, and tons of lies.

LL/Jan
Robert  Morien - 08 Jun 2005 10:19 GMT
> > Adjustments are part of life, and hope this is possible with Jan and Joel.
> > He has so much to offer.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> LL/Jan

nothing worse than a sore winner
Sdores - 08 Jun 2005 12:49 GMT
I'm sorry but collecting everything Joel ever posted, and some of the
numbers you turned in was from reposting his post, and turning it into to
have him removed is wrong.  With the stuff you post you are not one to say
who is blathering and lying.  You were wrong to do it and you are wrong to
brag about it like some kind of prize.  You said some nasty things to Joel
and others, so how would you feel if everyone collected all your posts and
started filing complaints to patrol the groups? IMO you are totally wrong.
UM MOM Susan

>> Adjustments are part of life, and hope this is possible with Jan and
>> Joel.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> LL/Jan
LadyLollipop - 09 Jun 2005 08:35 GMT
> I'm sorry but collecting everything Joel ever posted, and some of the
> numbers you turned in was from reposting his post, and turning it into to
> have him removed is wrong.

It most certainly was not. He has used my name over 20,000 times ans most of
those post were REPEATED  lies.

He is the one who was WRONG.

 With the stuff you post you are not one to say
> who is blathering and lying

NO Comparsion.

I do not use others names constantly with repeated lies.

Such as  Jan Brewski on Anal Sex

I do not impersonate others.

You were wrong to do it

Joel was judged on his own words.

and you are wrong to
> brag about it like some kind of prize.

I haven't.

 You said some nasty things to Joel
> and others,

I have defended myself.

so how would you feel if everyone collected all your posts and
> started filing complaints to patrol the groups?

I have not one thing to be ashamed of.

IMO you are totally wrong.
> UM MOM Susan

Your opinion is screwed.

People who respect themselves view selfishness, loss of self-discipline,
recklessness, cowardice and dishonesty as wrong and unworthy of them.
They  have  inner strength and are unwilling to let others use or manipulate
them.
They  know that showing patience or tolerance does not mean allowing others
to
mistreat them.

LL/Jan

>>> Adjustments are part of life, and hope this is possible with Jan and
>>> Joel.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
>> LL/Jan
carabelli - 09 Jun 2005 13:23 GMT
> I'm sorry but collecting everything Joel ever posted, and some of the
> numbers you turned in was from reposting his post, and turning it into to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> started filing complaints to patrol the groups? IMO you are totally wrong.
> UM MOM Susan

Joel is savvy enough about NNTP he could have been back on line in minutes.
He simply chose not to,

carabelli
Dr Steve - 09 Jun 2005 13:39 GMT
Or, changed his on-line "handle".

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S.
Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
>> I'm sorry but collecting everything Joel ever posted, and some of the
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> carabelli
StovePipe - 10 Jun 2005 04:20 GMT
> Or, changed his on-line "handle".

He'd have to change his whole personality.
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

Dr. Steve - 10 Jun 2005 13:44 GMT
>> Or, changed his on-line "handle".
>
>He'd have to change his whole personality.
>SP

Don't underestimate the man.
..
Stephen
Troy, Michigan, USA

I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
kureforcrohns@sbcglobal.net - 08 Jun 2005 13:51 GMT
Jan,
Regardless or in spite of "all the blatherings and lies",  still hope this
can be resolved.    We have all made mistakes, but it is hard to keep a
grudge forever.
To an extent, I can empathize with you as I have been killfiled, called
insane and much worse for my very unpopular theory which I believe without
recognition, we are headed down a disastrous road far worse than mercury as
it looms larger.   Counting would be impossible, as I can only get to 120,
getting to 22,000 would be staggering,  and that is only a beginning.
Joel has 35 years of experience, so he should be able to use his knowledge
for the benefit of many, and perhaps stop accenting Jan.

Gail
LadyLollipop - 09 Jun 2005 08:43 GMT
> Jan,
> Regardless or in spite of "all the blatherings and lies",  still hope this
> can be resolved.

I have tried that over and over and over.

  We have all made mistakes, but it is hard to keep a
> grudge forever.

I'm not holding a grudge. Joel do not learn from his mistakes. In fact, I
warned him and gave him a chance, he laughed at it.

> To an extent, I can empathize with you as I have been killfiled, called
> insane and much worse for my very unpopular theory which I believe without
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Gail

Joel 35 years of experience and he hasn't learned a thing.

You do know what Hans the dentist from Sweden said to him.

He is a blatant liar. Even the other dentists here have tired of his
nonsense.

He finds an article, then he adds my name to it.

He repeats the same thing over and over.

Here is what Hans said to him and Dr Steve at the end.

There is NO excuse for this.
====
I hope most open-minded people will view Joel's attempts to characterise the
PHS report as
proving that amalgams are safe, as a gross misrepresentation of the facts.
People who rely
on professionals to know their stuff, deserve better.

Hi Judge Joel,

You are representing the most prejudicial attitude I saw in a
long time. Did you get that from being a judge during the witch-
processes in a former life, or what?

Either you are grossly misinformed or you are intentionally
spreading blatant lies.

Hans
=====
Dear Dr. Eichen,

>> It's unfortunate that you don't have anything more constructive to do
>> with your life other than amusing yourself and your colleague dentists
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>> and pregnant women.... these countries are banning the use of mercury
>> amalgams.
Refer your colleagues to WWW.TOXICTEETH.ORG, WWW.TESTFOUNDATION.ORG,
>> WWW.IAOMT.ORG, http://www.home.earthlink.net/~berniew1/indexa.html,
>> and give them the studies which show that dentists have the highest
>> rate of suicide professionaly in this country.
>>
>> I suggest you keep up with the significant news of the day.....or are
>> you still reading comic books.

===

To everyone who do not understand why Joel wants to make
a complete fool out of himself,

Wrong again !  Show me where I ever used the word "tweezers" !

If you cannot support your repeated allegations I can only
conclude you made a pretty big fool out of yourself - again !

Cheers,
Hans

Joel M. Eichen wrote:
>The readers will decide!

Indeed !
The fun part is that this is all about your mind - what
you thought that I said. Sofar you have not been able
to point out anything, in spite of all your re-postings,
to support what you claim I said.  And I'm still waiting!

Hans

Joel M. Eichen wrote:
>At least we settled ...

I've been settling fine all along.  I am waiting for you to prove
that your allegations are right.  Or to watch you trying to
wiggle your way of this.  So Joel, which one will it be?

Joel wrote:
>Hans said Dentatus should be inserted, preferably with tweezers

Hans replied:
>Not with one word did I reveal how I work with the Dentatus. Not
>one single word!  Neither did I mention the word "tweezers" !

Still waiting ....

Hans

Joel M. Eichen wrote:
>Funny. Hans turning the circumstance around . . . .

That was a nice attempt to wiggle.  What's next?

Sill waiting for you to prove that your allegations are right.

Or to keep on watching you wiggle until you smoke yourself.

Which one is next?  Smoke or standard smokescreen?

Hans

Everything else here is Joel's attempts to make a huge
smokescreen so no one will spot him in his attempts to
pry his foot out of his mouth. Thats all there is

>Nelson wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>>don't have to read it.
>>Other comments in text:
Subject: Re: Outta here for awhile
From: "Dr. Steve" smancus.takeout@home.msen.com
Date: 3/18/03 10:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <v7fo43feqokq88@corp.supernews.com>

See Joel???

Your constant ridiculous cross posting of stuff no one but you is interested
in has driven more people off this forum.  Before long. it will be just the
Eichen cross posting news.
kureforcrohns@sbcglobal.net - 09 Jun 2005 19:34 GMT
Still unclear   ------    Is amalgam banned in the U.S.

Gail
carabelli - 10 Jun 2005 01:19 GMT
> Still unclear   ------    Is amalgam banned in the U.S.
>
> Gail

Surely you can't be serious.

carabelli
StovePipe - 10 Jun 2005 04:20 GMT
> Still unclear   ------    Is amalgam banned in the U.S.
>
> Gail

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

kureforcrohns@sbcglobal.net - 10 Jun 2005 17:01 GMT
The reason I ask if amalgam is banned in the U.S. is Hans passionate
disapproval of them and said Norway and Sweden will be banning them.
Banning is a clear message that it is harmful, but leaving it to the
discretion of the dentist means it is controversial at worst.
These days asking a dentist to place an amalgam is like asking for assisted
suicide by the dentist's reaction.

Gail
LadyLollipop - 10 Jun 2005 17:14 GMT
> The reason I ask if amalgam is banned in the U.S. is Hans passionate
> disapproval of them and said Norway and Sweden will be banning them.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Gail

You have every right to ask that, and you didn't get a straight answer.

I will repost what I have posted previously, which created a uproar with
some 430 posts of mostly personal slamming as usual.

With full bans soon to follow.

Mercury is being eliminated in *ALL* forms.

Ohio news conference continues momentum. In front of several TV
cameras,
Representative Annie Key announces bill to ban mercury fillings for
Ohio
children and pregnant women, making Ohio the 8th state to have such a
bill.

State legislators across USA renew efforts against mercury fillings.
Assemblyman Dick Dickerson (R-Calif.) introduced a resolution against
the
FDAregulation (see (3), below). Representative Johnny Rogers (D-Ala.)
promisesmajor action in 2003, as do Rep. Bob Holmes (D-Ga.), Reps.
Karen
Johnson &Debra Brimhall (R-Ariz.), and Rep. Mary Flowers (D-Ill.) Sen.
Mike
Michaud(D-Me.) and Rep. Hal Lynde (R-N.H.) passed their bills this
year.

Dental Board Committee Chair Yokoyama proposes California recommend
nomercury fillings for children, pregnant women. The president of the
new
California dental board, Dr. Alan Kay, appointed Dr.Chet Yokoyama, a
mercury-free dentist, to chair a committee to write a consumer-friendly

"fact
sheet" about the risks of mercury fillings. At the August meeting in
San
Francisco, Dr. Yokoyama proposed that the Board recommend that children
and
pregnant women not receive mercury fillings. He will hold hearings on
this
issue in November in Los Angeles.

NAACP national conference endorses ban for children, pregnant women. In
a
historic breakthrough, the annual convention of delegates of one of our

nation's oldest and most respected organizations endorsed the
Watson-Burtonbill, and called for a ban on mercury fillings for
children,
pregnant women,and nursing mothers. Meanwhile, standing up to huge
pressure
from organized dentistry, the National Black Caucus of State
Legislators
stood
firm on its resolution supporting Watson-Burton. To witness the
leadership
byAfrican-American organizations in pointing the way - certainly
something
we have seen before in our recent history - is gratifying indeed.

Maine's Bill LD1409 "An Act To Address The Health Effects of
MercuryFillings"
will be formally signed on Thursday, August 23rd at 11:00 a.m. atthe
Governor's
office in Aususta Maine. The bill will require dentists toprovide
patients
with
a brochure and to post a sign in the waiting room explaining that
amalgams
contain mercury and the health risks involved.

It's being agrued in Florida also.

The New Hampshire Legislature passed one of the strongest bills so far,
HB
1251

AN ACT relative to the use of mercury amalgam fillings by dentists.

This bill requires dentists and the department of health and human
services
to
provide health information on restorative dental materials, and
requires the
department of environmental services to adopt rules for the disposal of

mercury
amalgam waste in an environmentally-appropriate manner.

New York
Assemblyman Richard Brodsky (D-Westchester) introduced a broad-sweeping
bill

which, if enacted, would alter the practice of dentistry in New York
State.
The

legislation (A.4209), known as the Comprehensive Management of Waste
Mercury

Act of 2001, would also ban thermometers, fluorescent lights and other
products

that contain mercury, in what the sponsor says is an effort to cut the
amount
of mercury

entering sewers, landfills and incinerators. Amalgam dental fillings
have
been
found to
be a major source of mercury in sewers from human waste in household
and
office

sewer systems, and thermometers, thermostats, and fluorescent lights
are
major
sources

entering landfills. A Senate version of the bill is expected to be
introduced
by

Senator Michael Balboni (R/C-Nassau).

Measures similar to A.4209 are being considered in Connecticut, Maine,
Florida,

Maryland, Massachusetts, Maine, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Jersey,
Oregon

and Rhode Island, and indeed, the bill is modeled on a law Vermont
passed in
1998.

http://www.toxicteeth.net

LL/Jan
clintonz@prodigy.net - 10 Jun 2005 22:28 GMT
> The reason I ask if amalgam is banned in the U.S. is Hans passionate
> disapproval of them and said Norway and Sweden will be banning them.
> Banning is a clear message that it is harmful, but leaving it to the
> discretion of the dentist means it is controversial at worst.

Why be concerned with what anyone says. Best to read the research
yourself. the truth is that only one person makes policy.
that is the pubic. the public has decided because "most" people
dont appear to suffer "obvious" effects from amalgam that
amalgam is safe, and the general public is not capable of
making theoretical statistical or physical analyisis of amalgam
stability/effects.

Keep in mind that in recent memory the use of DDT, cigarette
smoking and radioactive medical treatments where all very popular
with the US public. Slavery was also enthusiastically endorsed by the
US public a mere 200 years ago. No one in the goverment or regualtory
agencies ever lifted a finger to correct these wrongs
for very long periods of time.

Politicians are elected by the public and influence appointments and
funding at federal agencies. Dental and Medical Boards likewise are
political appointments which thrive or fail
based on what the public wants.

Amalgam will be banned, just as the above wrongs where eventually
corrected,  but it will take much longer than it
should because of the ignorance of the public and the fact that,
previously there has been no financial incentive for dental
organizations to ban it.

And you can be sure that if people woke up tommorrow and said
that even if amalgam wasn't the largest source of Hg they
still didn't want ANY additional Hg exposure from amalgam, it
would be banned immediately.
Steven Bornfeld - 10 Jun 2005 22:34 GMT
> The reason I ask if amalgam is banned in the U.S. is Hans passionate
> disapproval of them and said Norway and Sweden will be banning them.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Gail

    No it's not.  By the same token, you don't think all clinical
regulations are based on nothing but good clinical research, do you?
    Explain to my why it is illegal in most states to ask a patient for
their HIV status, but also unethical for a practitioner to NOT disclose
HIV status to a patient?

Steve

Signature

Cut the nonsense to reply

clintonz@prodigy.net - 11 Jun 2005 03:02 GMT
> > The reason I ask if amalgam is banned in the U.S. is Hans passionate
> > disapproval of them and said Norway and Sweden will be banning them.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>     Explain to my why it is illegal in most states to ask a >patient for  their HIV status, but also unethical for a >practitioner to NOT disclose HIV status to a patient?

I agree that this is not necessarily fair, but there are probably
some good reasons for it.

1 is that someone can choose to practice dentistry or not and
is aware of the risks. Patients have no choice, they need
dental care.

2 is that every HIV patient exposes one dentist, but every
 dentist exposes 1000's of patients.

3 is that the dentist is in control of the environment and
 by using precautions can minimize risk since it is in
 their best interests and also has to worry about many other disease
such as hepatitis C whereas a patient has no control
 over exposure from a careless dentist (who after all
 is dying anyway and could care less about regulations)

4 Aids from what I research can even very early on influence
 the mental state of the practicioner because certain types
 of infections can reach the brain. And a dentist with Aids is
under a lot of stress and in a state of desparation. This means a
dentist with Aids is far more likely to be giving substandard care.

5 Patients with HIv would lie anyway, while dentists health histories
can be documented more easily.

6 Another reason is that a dentist with Aids is more likely
 to have friends with Aids and treat them at their dental
 clinic where the water lines can be containated with any
 kind of fungal/bacterial infection. Should patients have
 to recieve exposure at a dental clinic with a large thoughput
 of Aids patients?
Steven Bornfeld - 11 Jun 2005 03:31 GMT
>>>The reason I ask if amalgam is banned in the U.S. is Hans passionate
>>>disapproval of them and said Norway and Sweden will be banning them.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> is aware of the risks. Patients have no choice, they need
> dental care.

    The point is moot; many HIV positive patients do not know.  The law is
an a.s; here is why:
    We are told to practice universal precautions.  No dentist believes
that universal precautions will protect them 100% of the time; however,
they will protect a patient far better than they will the dentist.

> 2 is that every HIV patient exposes one dentist, but every
>   dentist exposes 1000's of patients.

    Transmission of HIV is through percutaneous transfer of bodily fluids.
 How often is a patient exposed to a dentist's bodily fluids?  How
often is a dentist exposed to a patient's?

> 3 is that the dentist is in control of the environment and
>   by using precautions can minimize risk since it is in
>   their best interests and also has to worry about many other disease
> such as hepatitis C whereas a patient has no control
>   over exposure from a careless dentist (who after all
>   is dying anyway and could care less about regulations)

    The dentist is obligated by law to practice universal precautions.  If
a dentist is so unethical as to not follow universal precautions, how
likely do you think it is that a dentist will reveal his HIV status?

> 4 Aids from what I research can even very early on influence
>   the mental state of the practicioner because certain types
>   of infections can reach the brain. And a dentist with Aids is
>  under a lot of stress and in a state of desparation. This means a
> dentist with Aids is far more likely to be giving substandard care.

    A dentist who is incompetent should not be providing care, regardless
of the cause of the incompetency.

> 5 Patients with HIv would lie anyway, while dentists health histories
> can be documented more easily.

    How is that?  HIV is legally defined as a disability, not an infectious
disease.  Theoretically there could be mandatory reporting of positive
HIV tests to the state dental boards.  AFAIK, there is no tracking of
HIV tests by occupation, and for obvious reasons this is extremely
unlikely to occur.

> 6 Another reason is that a dentist with Aids is more likely
>   to have friends with Aids and treat them at their dental
>   clinic where the water lines can be containated with any
>   kind of fungal/bacterial infection. Should patients have
>   to recieve exposure at a dental clinic with a large thoughput
>   of Aids patients?

    Universal precautions either work or they do not.  There was talk early
in the AIDS epidemic of patients avoiding dentists in neighborhoods with
high gay populations.  Fortunately, at least in New York, this hysteria
has passed.

Steve

Signature

Cut the nonsense to reply

clintonz@prodigy.net - 11 Jun 2005 05:36 GMT
>     Transmission of HIV is through percutaneous transfer of bodily fluids.
>   How often is a patient exposed to a dentist's bodily fluids?  How
> often is a dentist exposed to a patient's?

What I'm saying is that the dentist could be sloppy if they
wished. Suppose they spit on the drill (not that that would
spread hiv). Maybe the dentist would have to be cut for a realistic
chance of exposure, but the paitient cannot control the cirumstances if
the dentist is HIV positive, whreas the dentist can always maximize
their protection. I'm sure most patients would choose not to go to an
HIV positive dentist because who wants to be in a situation where an
HIV positive individual can act unethically.
When I was in school taking a psychology course the teacher actually
told the class that and HIV positive patient had confided to them
(during a psychology session) that in that building they would actually
contaminate one bathroom sink because they where
mad about having HIV. He never used any bathroom in the building
again.

In such a case that a dentist does have HIV, insurance and disability
should cover the dentist for the damage done to thier career so this is
not about discrimmating against the dentist. Also why would you want to
practice dentistry with only 5 -15 years to live?
.

>     The dentist is obligated by law to practice universal precautions.  If
> a dentist is so unethical as to not follow universal precautions, how
> likely do you think it is that a dentist will reveal his HIV status?

As you said, following universal precautions is no guarantee
of protection, from Aids, Hep C ,or poor dentistry, especially if the
QUALITY of dentistry declines.

I was actually thinking along the lines of mandatory testing. But
if they know their family can be sued later they may be more likely to
be reveal HIV status than you may think. That is a very interesting
question becase as you know in my case the dentist attempted to hide
this fact by moving out of state.

>     A dentist who is incompetent should not be providing care, regardless
> of the cause of the incompetency.

I think in many situations it is difficult for people to realize
their performance is suffering, and a dentist is their own boss. I also
suspect that a dentist with Aids would be more uncomfortable doing
certian procedures if they felt the chance of getting cut was greater.
They may also be more inclined to take shortcuts. This is kind of where
the dental profession creates its own problems becuse they fight hard
to prevent any kind of regulation whatsoever on either office machine
standards or dentist performance. Pilots with known risk factors simply
cannot fly. Dentistry is surgery , not to mention the hazardous
materials used in dentistry requiring careful attention to technical
detail. It is also important for the dentist to demand quality work
from assistants. Kind of difficult in an environment where they might
feel guilty about hiding HiV.

Overall dentistry is a poor environment for someone with a known
condition which can very early on lead to mild/significant dementia,
loss of physical endurance and changes in surgical comfort level and
ability to control the office to practice.

In fact the denitst could even go crazy from Aids related dementia. My
dentist actually eventually had to be locked out of the practice.

> > 5 Patients with HIv would lie anyway, while dentists health histories
> > can be documented more easily.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> HIV tests to the state dental boards.  AFAIK, there is no tracking of
> HIV tests by occupation,

I think most members of the public would agree that
surgeons and dentists should face mandatory testing for Aids
even though this is not current pubic policy. Why should professional
and high school atheles be tested for certain
substances when they hurt no one except themselves, but a patient and
children who faces some measureable risk have no protection?
If someone has an office job or works in contruction I agree
that there is no reason to test for HIV but out of thousands
of occupations, surgeon(not doctor), dentist and air traffic controller
are three professions where testing should be done.

.

> > 6 Another reason is that a dentist with Aids is more likely
> >   to have friends with Aids and treat them at their dental
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>     Universal precautions either work or they do not.  There was talk early
> in the AIDS epidemic of patients avoiding dentists in

To be honest I'm not familar with the effectiveness of certain
dental sanitary practices or what types of infections are or
are not likely to be associated with Aids. I remember the
20/20 segment where they showed persistant contamination of the water
lines in most dental offices from previous patients so it
is reasonable for me as a patient who developed complex jaw probelems
and had a dentist with Aids to wonder about the connection (although as
I said I believe the amalgam installation, is actually the cause of the
problem which is why I made the
first point about the quality of dentistry).

If it turns out, for example that certain types of staphs (especiically
resistant ones) can contaminate the lines that would worry me and any
member of the public who says that would not concern them at all is
being idealistic and a "good citizen" but probably not too honest.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 11 Jun 2005 14:11 GMT
>>    Transmission of HIV is through percutaneous transfer of bodily fluids.
>>  How often is a patient exposed to a dentist's bodily fluids?  How
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> not about discrimmating against the dentist. Also why would you want to
> practice dentistry with only 5 -15 years to live?

Clinton--

    I know you have had difficulties with a particular dentist, and I'm not
looking to pick a fight with you.
    There are clearly situations where dentists should be ruled incompetent
to practice.  I am not equipped to argue the merits of privacy for HIV
testing, though public health officials clearly feel that they want to
encourage testing as widely as possible, and making this voluntary and
private is the way to promote that in a free society.  Surely mandatory
testing could be done, but a little thought on that tells me that this
would have ramifications far beyond the HIV issue.  There is (for
example) no mandatory drug testing for dentists.  There is however, for
certain classes of employees.  So the legalities are quite beyond me.
What I was trying to point out is the hypocrisy in application of
existing laws, rather than the merits of regulation per se.

Steve

> .
>
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
> member of the public who says that would not concern them at all is
> being idealistic and a "good citizen" but probably not too honest.

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

clintonz@prodigy.net - 11 Jun 2005 22:04 GMT
Clinton--

>     I know you have had difficulties with a particular dentist, and I'm not
> looking to pick a fight with you.
>     There are clearly situations where dentists should be ruled incompetent
> to practice.  I am not equipped to argue the merits of privacy for HIV

I realize that. However I think other people on the list may
be interested to know, because it came as a surprise to me, that
there is a specific condition associated with Aids called
AIDs dementia complex. (ADC). Here is a link on it.

http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite?page=kb-04-01-03#S5X

Clinical Presentation of (ADC)

Although the severity and relative prominence of some symptoms and
signs compared to others may vary among individual patients, the
general character of ADC involves three functional categories:
cognition, motor performance, and behavior.(5) Table 2 provides an
outline of some of the early and late manifestations. Of the three
categories, cognitive and motor dysfunction are the most helpful in
characterizing patients and in defining diagnosis; it is for this
reason that they provide the basis of ADC Staging, which omits
behavioral criteria. When approaching diagnosis, it is useful to
separately consider milder and more severe affliction.

Stage 0.5 and 1 ADC

Cognitive impairment usually underlies patients' earliest symptoms.
Mildly afflicted patients most often have difficulty attending to more
complex tasks at work or at home. They need to make lists, sometimes
very detailed, of the day's activities. They lose track of actions
(e.g., leave the water boiling, get up to go to another room and then
forget why they did so) or of conversations in mid-sentence ("What was
I saying?"). Processing unrelated or complex thoughts becomes slower
and less facile. While similar lapses can trouble many normal people
especially in the face of fatigue or generalized illness, lapses in ADC
patients intrude on daily function to a greater degree. Multi-staged
tasks become difficult; e.g., the waiter can no longer keep verbal
orders straight when he arrives at the kitchen or the avid reader needs
to reread paragraphs or pages. When such dysfunction is mild, it may be
difficult to substantiate the basis for these complaints by bedside
examination, and it is important to apply tests that are sensitive to
these abnormalities, including particularly tests requiring
concentration, change of sets, and timed performance. Because it was
constructed for other conditions, the standard Mini-Mental Status(22)
may not be sufficiently sensitive at this point; however, when ADC
patients do perform abnormally, it is usually on reversals (reversing a
five-letter word like "world," or subtracting from 100 by 7's), complex
sequential tasks (placing the right thumb on the left ear and sticking
out the tongue), or remembering three objects.

Although motor symptoms are far less common during this early phase,
individuals relying on rapid or fine coordination may note a change.
For example, the guitarist may no longer be able to keep up with a
difficult piece or the athlete may be slowed to below a competitive
level. An inquiring history may discover a change in handwriting or,
less commonly, clumsiness in tying shoes or buttoning a shirt.
Moreover, even in those without overt symptoms, motor signs may be
detected on examination, including slowing of attempts at rapid
opposition of the thumb and forefinger, rotation of the wrist, or
tapping of the toe. While the gait may be generally steady, it is often
slow, and rapid turns may be interrupted by an extra step or performed
hesitantly. Reflexes are also often abnormal. The deep tendon stretch
reflexes, including importantly the jaw jerk, are frequently
hyperactive, although the ankle jerks may be relatively less active
when there is concomitant polyneuropathy. Babinski signs may be present
and other "pathologic" release signs may also be detected; of these,
the snout response is relatively frequent and particularly helpful when
present in young patients.

The time course and onset of milder ADC is variable. It may begin
insidiously or abruptly and progress more rapidly to a higher stage, or
it may continue to evolve slowly or even remain static for some period.
In patients with mild ADC, missed diagnosis usually results from
overlooking the important aspects of the history. Functional
difficulties may erroneously be considered as a "normal" part of
systemic illness by patients and their caregivers despite the fact that
most AIDS patients without neurologic conditions perform quite
normally, even in the late stage of HIV-1 infection. Particularly
important is the distinction of ADC from clinical depression, which can
produce similar complaints but carries distinct therapeutic
implications (see Chapter 5.15). Hypochondriasis and anxiety in those
understandably worried about body function may also lead to similar
complaints.

............

Interestingly , they say that it can be difficult to diagnose
in early stages and preceeds decline in motor function and probably
overall health, although fine motor function and complex motor tasking,
such as used in dentistry and undoubteldy required for a good amalgam
product and surgical outcome, can decline substantially without overall
motor symptoms obviously declining. So for some subset of Aids
patients, an early  and substantial decline in work
performance/abilities do occur. Very interesting indeed.
StovePipe - 11 Jun 2005 06:55 GMT
> The reason I ask if amalgam is banned in the U.S. is Hans passionate
> disapproval of them and said Norway and Sweden will be banning them.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Gail

No, non und nein, silly kureforbaldness
_er_
kureforcolds
_er_
kureformolds
_er_
kureforcronies
_er_
kureforcrazies
_er_
kureforscones
_er_
kureforcrohns

It is just that the militant anti-Am ass-wipes have gotten their mitts
into the politically cowardly kiss-a.ses, and got them to listen to
unreason.
Cheers
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

kureforcrohns@sbcglobal.net - 11 Jun 2005 18:15 GMT
Yesterday.  Actually  running out of  words, but the Kure remains.  Dont put
much stock in horoscopes but this one hit me.  words always circulating in
my mind.
"You  can't help identifying  with your beliefs today (and every day).  You
feel very  fervently about something.--perhaps religious, political or
philosophical.   (Actually a saviour of manmade illnesses)  YOU THINK OTHERS
SHOULD KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW.   ( never a truer  word have I said repeatedly to
myself.)  You feel like Paul Revere. "One if by land, two if by sea"
History escapes me totally.  What did Paul Revere do?

What is the Kure  for doubters.

> No, non und nein, silly kureforbaldness    Transplant
> _er_
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> _er_
> kureforcronies    Let them undergo the surgeons knife and lose their
kishkes (my doctors words)  if they prefer that to a liittle effort to
relate
> _er_
> kureforcrazies  (no remedy, still in that category.)
> _er_
> kureforscones    Bring them on, delicious
> _er_
> kureforcrohns    Dr. Burrill Crohn should have been cloned.

Will replacing the amalgams cure all of the above,    Desperation is setting
in.
What is NNTP   (that Joel is aware of)

Gail
StovePipe - 11 Jun 2005 19:59 GMT
> Will replacing the amalgams cure all of the above,    Desperation is setting
> in.
> What is NNTP   (that Joel is aware of)
>
> Gail

Replacing Am, in all likelyhood, will not improve any situation, save
for a very select few patients.

See:
http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=NNTP&Find
=Find

NNTP  Network News Transfer Protocol (RFC 977)

Now you know.
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

Sdores - 11 Jun 2005 15:52 GMT
Joel isn't here because a person saves peoples posts sometimes for years and
then when mad at them goes to the ISP and gets rid of them.  Joel had a
different kind of humor,yes but he didn't deserve to be kicked out of a
dental group by a non-dentist who has said some worse things.  UM MOM Susan,
Jewish Jan be careful
StovePipe - 11 Jun 2005 19:59 GMT
> Joel isn't here because a person saves peoples posts sometimes for years and
> then when mad at them goes to the ISP and gets rid of them.  Joel had a
> different kind of humor,yes but he didn't deserve to be kicked out of a
> dental group by a non-dentist who has said some worse things.  UM MOM Susan,
> Jewish Jan be careful

Very well said, Susan
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

LadyLollipop - 11 Jun 2005 21:51 GMT
>> Joel isn't here because a person saves peoples posts sometimes for years
>> and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Very well said, Susan
> SP

Oh yeah EXCEPT IT IS ALL ONE BIG LIE

> Finally: take out the TRASHH
Sdores - 11 Jun 2005 21:59 GMT
Oh shut up already!  Not everyone in the world is a liar except you.  You
have told some doosies.  I do not feel well so please just leave me alone.
UM MOM Susan

>>> Joel isn't here because a person saves peoples posts sometimes for years
>>> and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>> Finally: take out the TRASHH
LadyLollipop - 11 Jun 2005 21:50 GMT
> Joel isn't here because a person saves peoples posts sometimes for years
> and then when mad at them goes to the ISP and gets rid of them.

W R O N G. No need to save them, just do a search using Joel's name.

Then when mad,      Susan, Susan, Susan.      Joel impersonated me. That
means when people do a search using my addy, thay aslo see Joel's posts,
they do not look to see the difference between the aol.com and the
yahoo.com.

Do you not understand impersonation is a serious matter? It is against ALL
ISP rules. Check and see what it is in real life.

Joel had a  different kind of humor,yes but he didn't deserve to be kicked
out of a
> dental group by a non-dentist who has said some worse things.

Joel has posted over 20,000 posts using my name, most ALL of them were LIES.

UM MOM Susan,

> Jewish Jan be careful

Ummmm. That's what you should have told Joel, except, you can drop the
Jewish, that is completely irrelevant.

It's a real pity, you can't put yourself in other peoples' shoes.

Is it possible for you to imagine how you would feel, if it happened to you?

Now, let us hear no more about this, this is the last time, I am going to be
nice to you. I am tired of your blaming the wrong person.

Got that?

Be careful!

Jan
Sdores - 11 Jun 2005 22:04 GMT
Making threats now?  Being Jewish does have a place with you, remember I
have seen the Google backgrounds of what you have said about Jews.  Go for
it lady, I have done nothing but be polite and I am done with it.  Give it
your best shot.   I am not some child who is going to listen to the bully.
Do a Jan Google, along with your other ID's and see how many posts you have
made slamming others.  UM MOM Susan

>> Joel isn't here because a person saves peoples posts sometimes for years
>> and then when mad at them goes to the ISP and gets rid of them.
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Jan
LadyLollipop - 11 Jun 2005 23:21 GMT
Susan,

I am sorry you aren't feeling well. I understand that completely. I didn't
make a threat. Being Jewish, is totally irrelevant. I do not hate Jews as
you have read on MHA.

Best not to talk while you aren't feeling well.

Feel better soon.

My prayers are coming your way.

Sincerely,

Jan

> Making threats now?  Being Jewish does have a place with you, remember I
> have seen the Google backgrounds of what you have said about Jews.  Go for
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>>
>> Jan
Sdores - 11 Jun 2005 23:27 GMT
Thanks you, UM MOM Susan
> Susan,
>
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>>>
>>> Jan
spondee@cox.net - 10 Jun 2005 22:33 GMT
>I have been visiting this NG from time to time, over several years. This is
>the first time that I did not see and appreciate Joel's ubiquitous posts?
>What happened to him?

Actually, I was wondering the same...
Happy Oyster - 11 Jun 2005 15:43 GMT
>I have been visiting this NG from time to time, over several years. This is
>the first time that I did not see and appreciate Joel's ubiquitous posts?
>What happened to him?

Purrhaps he

- is on vacation with Renate Ratlos and his other girl friends ?

- is opening an anti-amalgam dentist office ?

- got addicted to a new taste of Haagen Dazys' ?

- was convicted by his wife to iron the laundry ?

- writes his biography, enjoying life in a hotel in San Molar, Switzerland ?

- still reads http://www.ariplex.com/ama/ama_rr20.htm

By the way : Does anyone know what happened to Renate Ratlos ... ???

Ahemm, this is the last material I received from her :

  http://www.ariplex.com/ama/ama_rr20.htm

By Jove, more than 1500... !

Regards,

Aribert Deckers
Signature

             Was jeder Kinderarzt ins Wartezimmer hängen sollte:

                  http://www.ariplex.com/ama/ama_im10.htm

clintonz@prodigy.net - 11 Jun 2005 22:23 GMT
> >I have been visiting this NG from time to time, over several years. This is
> >the first time that I did not see and appreciate Joel's ubiquitous posts?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> - writes his biography, enjoying life in a hotel in San Molar, Switzerland ?

Has sworn of all modern technology and is now living with
the Amish.
Happy Oyster - 13 Jun 2005 22:08 GMT
>> >What happened to him?
>>
>> Purrhaps he

[...]

>Has sworn of all modern technology and is now living with
>the Amish.

Now, if he lives there as a dentist, WOW!, that would be fine ... using all the
old type drillers...

And, according to Carlo Hoskins, God must have some sense of humour...

What a cozy little office... :

http://www.heritagefarmmuseum.com/images/mus_dentist_office.jpg

And here's something for Steven Bornfeld (isn't it him, who, according to our
great chronologist RR, "that day" did not buy a guitar...?)

http://www.heritagefarmmuseum.com/images/mus_washboards.jpg

Regards,

Aribert Deckers

PS : http://www.mtn.org/quack/devices/devindx.htm
    http://waring.library.musc.edu/macaulay.html
    http://www.cityofhills.nl/1800-1900%20fotos.htm
    http://www.carolyar.com/Illinois/1900/13.htm
Signature

             Was jeder Kinderarzt ins Wartezimmer hängen sollte:

                  http://www.ariplex.com/ama/ama_im10.htm

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.