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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / June 2005google your on-line name
I just did a quick search on my name and found postings made to SMD in the past 4 years spread all over the internet. All sorts of web-pages gobble up our postings using some bot and put our remarks everywhere. Remember how far spread out these messages get when you are posting. They are not restricted to this NG, but are being copy/pasted into hundreds of other sites. These other sites may not delete the messages after a specific time (I found very old messages in the first page of my search). Also, realize that the old "X-No-Archive: yes" will not work on messages copying into other sites. As much as I hate the idea, I am beginning to agree that anonymity may be preferable in our sig lines.  Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... >As much as I hate the idea, I am beginning to agree that >anonymity may be preferable in our sig lines. Told ya. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >I just did a quick search on my name and found postings made to SMD in the >past 4 years spread all over the internet. Think that you would be surprised by what you found googling "W_B" -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > I just did a quick search on my name and found postings made to SMD in the > past 4 years spread all over the internet. All sorts of web-pages gobble up [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Michigan, USA > .................................................... You're right -- there seem to be entire websites copied from threads in SMD. Lots of sites named like Med-whatever or Dent-something seem to be doing this. Somebody is probably archiving all this forever . . . -dentaldoc [What's a Temporary Posting?] D.D.S. > > I just did a quick search on my name and found postings made to SMD in the > > past 4 years spread all over the internet. All sorts of web-pages gobble up [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > -dentaldoc [What's a Temporary Posting?] D.D.S. Well, that goes for everyone who regs here. I stayed under a pseudonym for a good reason here and on the ASAD site, but who knows? There may even eventually be legal ramifications to advice passed here. Cheers SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH There are legal ramifications to the advice we give to people. Especially when the advice is in print form, archived and reproducible in court. I have had advice from lawyers (informally) and a dentist who is also a lawyer not to participate in fora like this one. Instead, I limit my comments to generalities. Dave Leader > There are legal ramifications to the advice we give to people. > Especially when the advice is in print form, archived and reproducible [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Dave Leader Is it even legal for a site which represnts itself as a "dental forum" to steal text from another dental forum. In other-words i would think that the incentive for anyone to reproduce text from here would be low, unless they are creating their own dental forum in which case it could very well be illegal since they are using the dental posts as a kind of product to promote their site. > There are legal ramifications to the advice we give to people. > Especially when the advice is in print form, archived and reproducible [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Dave Leader Well, we can rule out DentalTown, so that leaves the International Dental Forum (or is it Federation?). I took out a three week trial membership on that forum. Maybe I hit it on the wrong weeks, but I found it littered with pompous wind bags. The SMD is not perfect, and we may be taking chances, but I for one won't stop giving my 2 cents to patients here. JMO, YMMV SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH Thanks from a long time IDF member. <VBG> Fawks the International > Dental Forum (or is it Federation?). I took out a three week trial > membership on that forum. Maybe I hit it on the wrong weeks, but I > found it littered with pompous wind bags. > > SP > Thanks from a long time IDF member. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > > SP You know; I thot that I would _love_ the IDF. All those serious dentists. A veritable cornucopia of dental knowledge and advice from real wet finger dentists. I took out a trial membership in May of 2004. Three weeks. I just didn't get the feeling that those people feel at all like helping a mediocre dentist become good. They are all top notch dentists (or more likely they THINK they are) and they are not interested in helping newcomers. I won't go into any details, but after reading for a few posts I came to the conclusion that it would be best to lurk and try and learn something, but above all I would be best to keep my mouth SHUT while I was there. Accordingly, you probably never even knew I was there. I would much rather hang around _here_ and converse with people who don't feel they have to impress anyone. You, SF, were there at the get-go, and so you know who to read and who to avoid. You have had a great time there. Great. But, unfortunately, I have noticed that MMWV (my milage WILL vary). Maybe I'm being too harsh, but I called it the way I saw it. Sincerely, SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH I'm sure that I post more frequently on SMD, but I find the lack of loonies to be refreshing on the IDF. However, there are some guys who are there just to listen to themselves talk. There are also some bona-fide experts (even though they may have personalities in tow <G>). Sorry it didn't float your boat. No offense intended or taken. Just another pompous a.s, Fawks > Maybe I'm being too harsh, but I called it the way I saw it. > > Sincerely, > SP > I'm sure that I post more frequently on SMD, but I find the > lack of loonies to be refreshing on the IDF. However, there > are some guys who are there just to listen to themselves talk. There are those like that here too. And I am not excluding myself. > There are also some bona-fide experts (even though they may have > personalities in tow <G>). Just like my school Profs. That is what really got my bile up. In one NTI thread I must have cought them all. > Sorry it didn't float your boat. No offense intended or taken. Thank you. I guess it comes down to what you're used to. Like I said you saw the IDF right fromm its inception, so you know who and what to avoid. It would be great if all the regs of the SMD were on it, but then it wouldn't be the IDF. > Just another pompous a.s, > Fawks Oh c'mon. Nobody here thinks that of you, 'cept maybe SWNMNBM, and I am sure that it's the same over there. The thing is; David Dodell emailed me at the end of the trial period and i told him thanks but that I would stick with the SMD. He answered asking how I could stand all the spam. I should have retorted aksing how he could stand all the hot air. Wasn't all of them, of course, and I saw that when someone from the IDF emails Ray Bertolotti, he answers, but the thing is; what are you used to and what do you need? I need their advice, but they sure as hell don't need me. But I didn't respond that way to Dodell's message; I just said thanks for the offer. Cheers SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH I also tried the IDF a few years ago. I found it boring at best with their own version an annoying know-it-all who made participation a pain in the butt. I ended up back here again. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >> Thanks from a long time IDF member. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Sincerely, > SP > I also tried the IDF a few years ago. I found it boring at best with their > own version an annoying know-it-all who made participation a pain in the > butt. I ended up back here again. .... where you're practicing to be a pompous a.s.....? ;-) SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH This usenet post is an excellent demonstration of a generalized answer. Uhm, I mean, generally speaking you usually give generalized answers. SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org www.mormons.com There are legal ramifications to the advice we give to people. Especially when the advice is in print form, archived and reproducible in court. I have had advice from lawyers (informally) and a dentist who is also a lawyer not to participate in fora like this one. Instead, I limit my comments to generalities. Dave Leader > There are legal ramifications to the advice we give to people. > Especially when the advice is in print form, archived and reproducible > in court. I have had advice from lawyers (informally) and a dentist > who is also a lawyer not to participate in fora like this one. > > Instead, I limit my comments to generalities. And I post anonymously for the same reason. I could be a well-read retired daycare owner for all you know. > > There are legal ramifications to the advice we give to people. > > Especially when the advice is in print form, archived and reproducible [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And I post anonymously for the same reason. I could be a well-read retired > daycare owner for all you know. Not really, We know that you: 1. are a relatively recent dental graduate 2. Went to Purdue 3. Have a degree in Mechanical Enginneering. 4. The name of your server and based on your posting habits which time zone you are in. 5. Have a self reported IQ of 140 Probably already enough to narrow down your identity to a few people, and that doesn't even take into account other information you have posted. Anonymity on the internet is an illusion more than anything else. > Not really, Not really indeed! \ You really don't know who anybody is on the Internet, unless there is some personal contact. I could take the name of some real person and you (as long as I took a bit of care) would never have any way of knowing I was not that person. On the other hand, if NOYB were using his real name, I could talk to him here on SMD for years and still not be able to prove in court that I had ever communicated with him once. Identities are just too easy to spoof here, and it cuts both ways. Vaughn "Vaughn" <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.fake.net> wrote in message news:4V2pe.291718$cg1.165979@bgtnsc04- > I could take the name of some real person and you (as long as I took a bit > of care) would never have any way of knowing I was not that person. > > On the other hand, if NOYB were using his real name, I could talk to > him here on SMD for years and still not be able to prove in court that I > had ever communicated with him once. Great points! >> > There are legal ramifications to the advice we give to people. >> > Especially when the advice is in print form, archived and reproducible [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > 1. are a relatively recent dental graduate 1999. > 2. Went to Purdue > 3. Have a degree in Mechanical Enginneering. At Purdue, we spelled Engineering with one "n" after the "i". > 4. The name of your server and based on your > posting habits which time zone you are in. Eastern time zone. I've also said that I'm in Southwest FL. > 5. Have a self reported IQ of 140 141 to be precise. > Probably already enough to narrow down your identity > to a few people, and that doesn't even take into account other > information you have posted. > > Anonymity on the internet is an illusion more than anything > else. No kidding. And an interested party could easily figure it out. But the point is that a simple google search won't link my name with all of the political and off-topic rants and opinions that I've posted on the internet. For instance, if you typed "Joel", "Eichen", and "amalgam" in google, you'd get 1550 hits. If you typed my name and the word amalgam, you'd get zero hits. Life outside of the internet is a lot simpler that way. > > We know that you: > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Probably already enough to narrow down your identity > No kidding. And an interested party could easily figure it out. But the And in fact I haVE, NOYB or should I now refer to you as Dr. Yang! > point is that a simple google search won't link my name with all of the > political and off-topic rants and opinions that I've posted on the internet. > > For instance, if you typed "Joel", "Eichen", and "amalgam" in google, you'd > get 1550 hits. (not counting erased posts) Yep that is very true. As you know all information about my Dentist was on the net (google-Bob Marko DDS) after he "mysteriously" left practice. Amazing what patients can find from a simple search. I also had a family member tell me they looked up amalgam on the net and found my name! They wouldn't have made that connection if I used an alternate Id > If you typed my name and the word amalgam, you'd get zero hits. > > Life outside of the internet is a lot simpler that way. One advantage of using your real name though, is you never say something you would regret. I know its hard to believe based on some of the stuff I've said what I would say if I was anynomous. Also I have a hidden agenda because if anyone ever had similar problems with the same dentist, did searches on amalgam and knows me they would make the connection. If I was a dentist I probably would not post with my real name. >> > We know that you: >> > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > And in fact I haVE, NOYB or should I now refer to you as > Dr. Yang! Seung Chul? Or James T. ? Funny, I've googled my name a bunch. This time not much came up (web only, not usenet) except for a dental referral site encouraging me to be the first to recommend me. At which time I'm sure to be offered a once in a lifetime chance to be really listed - for a fee. Weird, used to see more hits, there's a guy in CO, different middle initial, and a guy in Germany. Maybe my shennanigans got my more computer savvy distant relatives to nuke everything. And google suggested that I really might want a really mutated spelling of my last name. carabelli > Funny, I've googled my name a bunch. This time not much came up (web > only, not usenet) except for a dental referral site encouraging me to be [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > savvy distant relatives to nuke everything. And google suggested that I > really might want a really mutated spelling of my last name. Google added an "adult content" filter. Perhaps your name and all its associated websites are being blocked by the adult content filter? > > Funny, I've googled my name a bunch. This time not much came up (web > > only, not usenet) except for a dental referral site encouraging me to be [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Google added an "adult content" filter. Perhaps your name and all its > associated websites are being blocked by the adult content filter? Thanks, I needed a laugh today carabelli >Anonymity on the internet is an illusion more than anything >else. Then who am I ? -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >Anonymity on the internet is an illusion more than anything > >else. > > Then who am I ? Good question. Actually you have provided enough information to uniquely identify yourself NOT counting tracking your email and server if say, you were determined to be a terrorist and a million dollar reward was put out. So, as the first line in the Phantom of the Opera goes, perhaps we can reveal the "ghost" of anoynomity past with a little illumination!!...(cue organ music): IIRC you posted that you had received an A on a physics test in either dental school or college and gotten an A in the class. The single question on the test was to determine the mass of the Earth. Tests are very unique and no 2 are alike. I have never seen two physics tests remotely alike or one that comes close to the above description. Although NYOB gave information about his degree and you didn't, you gave even MORE information because you described a specific test you had taken in a specific subject. I'm sure there was only 1 test like the one you described given in all the colleges in the past 50 years. Even if 10 tests fit that description that would only be a group of a couple hundred people and many would not match the year of likely enrollment based on your probable age and could be eleminated. Theoretically, with the $1,000,000 one could search for the professor or people in that class who had taken the test. Once the test was found we would know the class year and the enrollment of the class. Cross reference that with people who got an A and went on to be dentists, have your conservative political views etc and probably only 1 person in the US fits that description. <clintonz@prodigy.net> wrote............... > Theoretically, with the $1,000,000 one could search for the professor > or people in that class who had taken the test. Once the test was found > we would know the class year and the enrollment of the class. Cross > reference that with people who got an A and went on to be dentists, > have your conservative political views etc and probably only 1 person > in the US fits that description. One's enough. carabelli . > Well, that goes for everyone who regs here. I stayed under a pseudonym > for a good reason here and on the ASAD site, but who knows? There may > even eventually be legal ramifications to advice passed here. Don't think you are protected just because you use an alternate name. you are still legally responsible if you are known to be a dentist and represent yourself as a dentist. that being said, I think it would be virtully impossible for anyone to sue based on advice given here. for one thing the context of the site itself is clear, to exchange dental opinions and information. Secondly, as a denitst you have a right to state your opinion on dental issues, dental cases etc and even make a diagnosis if you want. I also suspect that google has probably already covered these points in the terms of use and privacy policy sections. >I also suspect > that google has probably already covered these points in > the terms of use and privacy policy sections. While I pretty much agree with your legal theory, you have a lot to learn about the Usenet. It is not ran or owned by Google. Actually, Google is just another of those bots that Steve was talking about that takes stuff from Usenet and puts it on the web. Vaughn > >I also suspect > > that google has probably already covered these points in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > another of those bots that Steve was talking about that takes stuff from Usenet > and puts it on the web. I'm not sure what you are getting at (although you are right that I am not familiar with usenet). I never said that Google controls any part of the internet or usenet. Many people post directly to google groups so regardless of where the information is copied to I would not consider those posters liable if the terms of use covers posts in Google, where the information was first posted ,or the context of the orginally posting was clear. If you are saying that if a post is copied to another group and then, say copied again to another group the original poster should be liable I don't think that is correct. After all how can someone be held accountable for what somebody else does with the information. Someone could also print a post off the internet and post that in a dental office but there should be no liability there either. Apparently the terms of use mainly absolves Google of any responsability for posts but not necessarily the poster(although this is not allowed in some states). they also have a policy against allowing information being reposted for commercial use. Interesting. >> >I also suspect >> > that google has probably already covered these points in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > is not allowed in some states). they also have a policy against > allowing information being reposted for commercial use. Interesting. All ISPs worth using maintain their own dedicated NNTP servers. I post to my NNTP server, which is maintained by my ISP. That NNTP server exchanges posts with other NNTP servers all over the world. This decentralized network of servers, along with an organization that (sort of) oganizes the groups and their charters is called the "Usenet". Google is nothing but a commercial web interface to the Usenet that has (totally on its own) taken on the job of archiving all of this talk. When I post, (except for the rare times I post through the Google web interface) I am not a party to any TOS agreement with Google. Vaughn > All ISPs worth using maintain their own dedicated NNTP servers. I post to > my NNTP server, which is maintained by my ISP. That NNTP server exchanges posts > with other NNTP servers all over the world. Yeah, I'm way behind on all the usenet stuff. I'll have to see if my ISP uses an NNTP server. I always go to google groups and post directly to sci dental (at least that is what it appears I am doing). That also means I cannot block posters since I read the posts directly from sci dental. > All ISPs worth using maintain their own dedicated NNTP servers. I > post to my NNTP server, which is maintained by my ISP. That NNTP server [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Vaughn How can one know if one's ISP is using a real NNTP server? Especially from behind chocolate bars? Thanks SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH > How can one know if one's ISP is using a real NNTP server? Especially > from behind chocolate bars? You ask. Since AOL recently got rid of theirs, I expect we will all live long enough to se them go the way of the buggy whip. The alternative is a web interface like Google. Since I am too cheeeeep to pay for broadband, I prefer plain old text-based NNTP. Vaughn >How can one know if one's ISP is using a real NNTP server? Especially >from behind chocolate bars? >Thanks >SP Call or check out their technical web pages. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >How can one know if one's ISP is using a real NNTP server? Especially > >from behind chocolate bars? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com OK. I just thought there was something in the full headers that would say so. Thanks SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH >> >How can one know if one's ISP is using a real NNTP server? Especially >> >from behind chocolate bars? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Thanks >SP Usually you need the server address (ie 123.456.789.001) and your username/password entered into your newsreader to connect. ISP's are very protective of their NNTP servers, otherwise there are some free news servers out there. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Usually you need the server address (ie 123.456.789.001) > and your username/password entered into your newsreader [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com OK. I notice you have this in your headers: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii How do you turn on the no archive command? I also notice that you use EasyNews as your NNTP server (or is that a web site?). Why is that? Thanks SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH > > Usually you need the server address (ie 123.456.789.001) > > and your username/password entered into your newsreader [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Thanks > SP But the thing is... anyone can collect posts for their personal archive. What people do with such a collection is up to them. Google's option is Google's option. ..... Webby >> Usually you need the server address (ie 123.456.789.001) >> and your username/password entered into your newsreader [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >How do you turn on the no archive command? It's a setting in Agent. Your newsreader may or may not have this function. >I also notice that you use EasyNews as your NNTP server (or is that a >web site?). Why is that? It gets all of the posts for $9.95/mo. Have used it for a long time. Easynews allows for either NNTP or Web based newsreading. >Thanks >SP -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >OK. I notice you have this in your headers: > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Thanks > >SP OK, thanks. I may just look that up. Sympatico may indeed have a dedicated NNTP server, but it is pretty trashy. There has been two Saturdays already this Spring where the server is down. I don't think they take much notice of the UseNet'ers. I bet that your server would also have a lot of abandonware for the older Macs... My little guy is a maniac for those old black and white 2 dimensional games. Thanks SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH > > >I also suspect > > > that google has probably already covered these points in [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > is not allowed in some states). they also have a policy against > allowing information being reposted for commercial use. Interesting. This sort of reminds me of the book, "The TMJ Iatroepidemic". Webby > This sort of reminds me of the book, "The TMJ Iatroepidemic". Hullo Webby! I thought you might drop into this thread sooner or later. Seen any grandbabys lately? Vaughn > Webby In article <jPope.911310$w62.489319@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, > "The Webby" <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam@san.rr.com> wrote in message > news:nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-0EB4C8.11194407062005@news-rdr-01.socal.rr [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > > Webby Hullo Grandpa Vaughn, Drove back Sunday ... long trip home. Saw her, spent two weeks taking care of her and having a grand, grandmotherly time of it. She is wonderful!!! Probably not going to be online much for awhile yet. Have *stuff* to do which also includes some time out of town ... again... ugh, I think. Tired of suitcases. I have the picture of your bookshelf on my desktop. Thought you would be thinking I'd notice the thread ;-) Webby > She is wonderful!!! Of course she is! > Probably not going to be online much for awhile yet. We will be here when you return. > I have the picture of your bookshelf on my desktop. Then I can just rotate my head 90 degrees to the right and see your desktop any time I want! > Thought you would > be thinking I'd notice the thread ;-) We know our Webby. Vaughn after CZ pontificated: > > Apparently the terms of use mainly absolves Google of any > > responsability for posts but not necessarily the poster(although this [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Webby WHO ASKED YOU????!!!!!! ;-) SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH > after CZ pontificated: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > WHO ASKED YOU????!!!!!! ;-) > SP CZ didn't. And Google didn't exist back then ... so ... ;-) Webby > > > This sort of reminds me of the book, "The TMJ Iatroepidemic". > > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Webby I personally feel that that time was the hey day of the Internet... and I missed it... <sigh...> Cheers. Nice to hear from you! SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH In article <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-0EB4C8.11194407062005@news-rdr-01.socal. rr.com>, > This sort of reminds me of the book, "The TMJ Iatroepidemic". > > Webby Can't help but wonder if CZ knows why it reminds me of the book. Hmmm. Webby In article <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-F721EA.12511209062005@news-rdr-02.socal. rr.com>, > In article > <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-0EB4C8.11194407062005@news-rdr-01.socal. > rr.com>, should have placed [cut] here. > > This sort of reminds me of the book, "The TMJ Iatroepidemic". > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Webby Webby > In article > <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-0EB4C8.11194407062005@news-rdr-01.socal. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Can't help but wonder if CZ knows why it reminds me of the book. Hmmm. I am not familiar with this book. Is this some kind of dirty secrets book about dentistry and TMJ? I didn't read "Silent Spring" either but I heard it was good. > Webby > > In article > > <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-0EB4C8.11194407062005@news-rdr-01.socal. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > > Webby Interesting question you've asked. Others should answer rather than me. Webby > > > In article > > > <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-0EB4C8.11194407062005@news-rdr-01.socal. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Webby _I_ disagree: I believe that no one is better suited, in light of who you have become since, to answer that question. Anyway, that's just my opinion. SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH > > In article > > <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-0EB4C8.11194407062005@news-rdr-01.socal. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > > Webby Clinton, you really should read the book, "The TMJ Iatroepidemic", if you haven't already. Let me know if you're interested. Webby In article <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-58CED7.12233714062005@news-rdr-01.socal. rr.com>, > > > In article > > > <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-0EB4C8.11194407062005@news-rdr-01.socal. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Webby I wanted to bring this to your attention ... in case you lost interest in the thread. Webby > > > Webby > > Clinton, you really should read the book, "The TMJ Iatroepidemic", if > you haven't already. Let me know if you're interested. > > Webby If I had time I might, but to be honest I really shoudln't even be wasting as much time as I do posting. i am sure I do not have TMJ (if you saw my jaw scan you would understand why). Is this book available on amazon? Maybe you could give a quick summary for other readers. I'm still not sure if you think this book has a general philosophical/moral lesson to be taught or if it is more of a technical description of undiagnosed TMJ. > > > > Webby > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > lesson to be taught or if it is more of a technical description > of undiagnosed TMJ. Many readers also thought they were too busy or not interested enough in the presumed subject matter to take the time needed to read "that book". Once they found and set aside the time needed, I have often heard that it had been time well spent. A downloadable version has been offered free of charge many times over the years but I don't currently have such an offer to make. At this time, the only way to obtain a copy is to borrow the book from someone who has it or to get a copy from me. (Anyone can write to me at the address I use here in usenet.) To describe what the book is and isn't is not such a simple task. Almost everyone would agree that it just is what it is... and I trust that what it means to each reader is always a unique personal experience. Even I take time to read it again every now and then, cover to cover, realizing the reason for the activity is of value to me. Webby > > > Clinton, you really should read the book, "The TMJ Iatroepidemic", if > > > you haven't already. Let me know if you're interested. > > > > > > Webby I most heartily second that suggestion to read 'The Book,' as it is often called here. I was discussing this book offline with another interested poster (Dolly PardonMe) and I was saying this: This book should be read by any and all UseNet'ers who are interested in health questions, such as the SMD is supposed to be there for. This book shows graphically what can happen when patients are faced with a no-win situation, having been sold on a surgical treatment that ends up being worse than the original disease. It should be mentioned that the speciallists that sold the treatments to the common dentist are as much part of the problem as the dentists themselves. Thank God there were those level headed dentists even back then who realized the folly of these types of interventions, and protected their patients from them. In fact, there are one or two of those that are still here. (Wheelchair grease, please...) > > If I had time I might, but to be honest I really shoudln't > > even be wasting as much time as I do posting. i am sure I do not have > > TMJ (if you saw my jaw scan you would understand why). > > > > Is this book available on amazon? Now, as much as I hate to admit it (you see Sabra, CZ and myself are no longer on speaking terms), this is a Capital Idea! Have you looked into selling The Book on Amazon or even eBay? They will handle it totally for you over at Aamaazzzonn if you so desire. >>Maybe you could give > > a quick summary for other readers. I'm still not sure > > if you think this book has a general philosophical/moral > > lesson to be taught or if it is more of a technical description > > of undiagnosed TMJ. I read The Book over the Xmas holidays at the Mother In Law's place. I didn't have access to the Internet at her place (elderly ladies get REALLY nervous if you disconnect THE TELEPHONE) and this book made me feel right back into it-for awhile. Then the tone of the posts on the SMD turned a bit sour, and the dentists got on their high horses and it finally came out that the surgeries done on TMJ patients were not working AND those patients were being essentially ABANDONED by their dental/surgical teams. "Bad patients, son, bad patients.." - John Holt: How Children Fail The book traces the posts of some of said patients in their increasingly desperate attempts to find a solution to an increasingly incapacitating situation about the new artificial TMJ prostheses. To say the situation was 'increasingly incapacitating' is the quintessential understatement. I have on occasion made reference here to that poor little old lady sitting in an Old Folks' Home, who'd had both TMJ replaced. Later, when the immune systm could not tolerate the presence of those joints, and with rejection inflammation and infection slowly eating through her bone (Both joint and Skull-as in right under the brain), exposing those artificial joints to the open air in non reducible wounds. I'm sure that lady knew that the inflammation would eventually eat away the bone just under the brain-------- then what????? So the director of the Home contacts the SMD on UseNet and sends an SOS....... and NOBODY answers her pleas. Now, I dunnow about YOU but I think I'd feel mighty ALONE at that moment... and the tone of the posts on the SMD and the newly created alt.support.jaw.disorders became increasingly hostile towards dentists; especially after one or two deigned to examine the cases if the victims could come up with the $$$$ in US$ for them to do that. The Webby wrote The Book as a (mostly collected the UseNet posts into a) chronology of the problem as it unfolded in real time, as if you were following the posts on your own computer. This labor was certainly as much a therapy for herself as it was an in-depth report. In fact I believe she became The Webby to steel herself against the inevitable degeneration she herself was doomed to suffer and to militate for those lost souls that could not speak for themselves, such as the poor lady described briefly above. I still shudder when I think of that poor lady. She is certainly dead now, I believe, and she must have died in very unkind circumstances, with brain and/or body infections betting the better of her immune system. For myself, it made me rethink in a clear and serious fashion the Hippocratean admonition we have sworn to uphold: " Firstly, Do No Harm " > Many readers also thought they were too busy or not interested enough in > the presumed subject matter to take the time needed to read "that book". [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Webby I suggest reading The Book, and that one should even read it again after a short delay. It's a bit like the StarWars episodes. The begining is clearer once you've seen the end. Hope this Helps S SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH > > > > Clinton, you really should read the book, "The TMJ Iatroepidemic", if > > > > you haven't already. Let me know if you're interested. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > should be read by any and all UseNet'ers who are interested in health > questions, such as the SMD is supposed to be there for. To be honest I haven't read a complete book in years (with the exception of Hal Huggins it's all in your head and some techincal papers on motors). The last book i tried to read was timeline by michael Crieghton (or however you spell it). The concept Webby used does sound like a good idea for a book, however you both should know that many people diagnosed with chronic OM are experiencing some of the things you mention in the book, such as virtual abandonment by surgical teams, because the inability to diagnose and treat jaw infection seems to be a common theme with the OS community. Some of the confustion in this area overalps with the NICO controversy. Some do end up dying from the infections in the hosptiatl after being tossed around the medical community like a hot potato. I would definitely suggest Webby checks out some of the OM lists and considers including this topic in the book too especially if it is ever published. This book shows > graphically what can happen when patients are faced with a no-win > situation, having been sold on a surgical treatment that ends up being [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] > Hope this Helps > S [clip] > I would definitely suggest Webby checks > out some of the OM lists and considers including this topic in the book > too especially if it is ever published. [clip] The book was published, paperback, in 1997 and a new copy can be purchased from me at this point in time. Barnes & Noble did sell it -- and sales were not bad. Let me just say that this is "no ordinary book" and for that reason, there is story *about* the book that almost rivals the story told *in* the book. As I wrote before, anyone can write to me at my usenet address. Webby > > > > > Clinton, you really should read the book, "The TMJ Iatroepidemic", if > > > > > you haven't already. Let me know if you're interested. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > papers on motors). The last book i tried to read was timeline > by michael Crieghton (or however you spell it). I picked up Crichton's TimeLine quite by accident, and lo and behold, he is decribing the siege of Longuedoq (the final big purge of the Cathars) in novel form! I believe that many of my ancestors perished in that genocide. ... 'Though, SOME here would say that not enough of my ancestors perished, hey????? :-/ > The concept Webby used does sound like a good idea for a book, > however you both should know that many people diagnosed with > chronic OM are experiencing some of the things you mention > in the book, such as virtual abandonment by surgical teams, because the > inability to diagnose and treat jaw infection seems > to be a common theme with the OS community. If you have noticed, much the same happens here. I am not blaming either side; it is just a fact. The Webby's method of making peace and accepting her iatrogenically inflicted injuries has allowed her to GET ON with her life. This has undoubtedly caused resentment and jealousy in at least one other here who seems not to be able to get to that level. I am not speaking of CZ here. >Some of the confustion in > this area overalps with the NICO controversy. Some do end up dying from > the infections in the hosptiatl after being tossed around the medical > community like a hot potato. I would definitely suggest Webby checks > out some of the OM lists and considers including this topic in the book > too especially if it is ever published. It was published in 1997. The Book is called the TMJ IATROEPIDEMIC Unintentional Confessions of a Profession by Webby and Chang. First Edition, BrierNet, San Diego, California. The cover is black and white with a cartoon version of the Three Monkeys (See/Hear/Speak no Evil) on the cover. They are dressed as physician, lawyer and dentist respectively. The last sentence on the explicatory back cover is: "Above all... THIS IS A BOOK ABOUT HOPE" This book came highly recommended to me by at least one of the dentists here, and you, of all people, would get allot out of it. I believe this is the only book I own that is signed by the author, and it sits in my library next to my dental medicine books. I believe you should read it, as it would be quite therapeutic, and as I have said, you should plan to read it twice. Sincerely, SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH > In article > <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-0EB4C8.11194407062005@news-rdr-01.socal. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Webby "There were no further replies on this thread..." ;-) SP PS: the one that STILL gets me is that lady who posted in desperation on the SMD. She was in charge of a nursing home or similar and this lady was having her replacement joints coming out the side of her head as the body rejected them (to say nothing of what the brain would do if the glenoid fossa were to resorb as well...). Anyways, she shouted a desparate plea for help for this lady who was surely destined to die in very moribund circumstances, and NO ONE replied.... Not even in sympathy. Can one ever feel more abandoned than that? Fortunately, these days, we know better; don't we gang...... SP(again) SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH I am finding on first position my joke about "girls" :)))) My wife is angry with me for it >I just did a quick search on my name and found postings made to SMD in the >past 4 years spread all over the internet. All sorts of web-pages gobble [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >other sites. As much as I hate the idea, I am beginning to agree that >anonymity may be preferable in our sig lines. >I just did a quick search on my name and found postings made to SMD in the >past 4 years spread all over the internet. All sorts of web-pages gobble up [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >other sites. As much as I hate the idea, I am beginning to agree that >anonymity may be preferable in our sig lines. Hi, all, THAT is one part of the problem. The other is, that these swine spoil the search in the net in total as one always has do wade though their piles of dung. They are thieves : They steal the texts written by others - to abuse these as material for their advertisement servers - and make their money by inserting banners, etc. Regards, Aribert Deckers SignatureFarbiges Röntgen, farbiges CT und farbiges MRT http://www.ariplex.com/hws/hws_farb.htm >As much as I hate the idea, I am beginning to agree that anonymity may be >preferable in our sig lines. I Googled various iterations of my name and found nothing alarming, but those bots are an interesting development. Some bots are working in the other direction, collecting articles with specific keywords and dropping them in huge batches into certain newsgroups. Another way to achieve anonymity is to hide in a large group. (that is why some of us prefer large churches to small ones) In Steve's case, he could just drop the "Dr." and his posts would melt into a huge ocean of like-named folks. Even with a relatively unusual name like "Vaughn", my posts are pretty obscure when mixed with the world's other "Vaughns". Vaughn > Another way to achieve anonymity is to hide in a large group. (that > is why some of us prefer large churches to small ones) In Steve's case, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Vaughn Vaughn's posts 'obscure'.... Hmmm.... I thought Vaughn's posts were clear: world domination through the elimination of all spammers but his own mega-spam site: VaughnHatesSpam.com.org.pop.corn Devious fellow that deserves to be behind chocolat bars. SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH > Vaughn's posts 'obscure'.... Hmmm.... I thought Vaughn's posts were > clear: world domination through the elimination of all spammers but his > own mega-spam site: VaughnHatesSpam.com.org.pop.corn > > Devious fellow that deserves to be behind chocolat bars. I forgot to mention, one thing I kept finding was advertisements that said things like "Find all things Vaughn on E-bay", or "great deals on Vaughns on E-bay". I guess I have finally found a way to spam myself. Vaughn >> Vaughn's posts 'obscure'.... Hmmm.... I thought Vaughn's posts were >> clear: world domination through the elimination of all spammers but his [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Vaughn Too funny ! Thank's for the chuckle. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>As much as I hate the idea, I am beginning to agree that anonymity may be >>preferable in our sig lines. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Vaughn If this screen name disappears, and you can easily tell its me in a new one, don't be surprised. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. > If this screen name disappears, and you can easily tell its me in a > new one, don't be surprised. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. You could call yourself LasagnaEatingSaabDrivingDentist or LESDD. I could renew my self as PainInTheAssDentist, or PITAD. SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH But, I don't like Lasagna. We make a different baked pasta dish instead. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >> If this screen name disappears, and you can easily tell its me in a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > could renew my self as PainInTheAssDentist, or PITAD. > SP >But, I don't like Lasagna. We make a different baked pasta dish instead. How about Linguini? -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Depends on the "gravy" Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>But, I don't like Lasagna. We make a different baked pasta dish instead. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >Depends on the "gravy" Clams, shrimp, and mushrooms in a white wine butter sauce. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com I'll be right over! Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>Depends on the "gravy" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > But, I don't like Lasagna. We make a different baked pasta dish instead. Then call yourself BakedPastaDishDentist, or BPDD SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH Stop it, you are making me hungry. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >> But, I don't like Lasagna. We make a different baked pasta dish instead. > > Then call yourself BakedPastaDishDentist, or BPDD > SP >I just did a quick search on my name and found postings made to SMD in the >past 4 years spread all over the internet. All sorts of web-pages gobble [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >other sites. As much as I hate the idea, I am beginning to agree that >anonymity may be preferable in our sig lines. Fortunately, I figured this out 6 or 7 years ago. I knew that one day a patient may "google up" my name looking for a website, etc...and find a bunch of irrelevant posts that I made on Usenet. I did not mind when it was only on Google, but now it is spread across countless web-sites gathered up by blindly marching bots. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>I just did a quick search on my name and found postings made to SMD in the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > patient may "google up" my name looking for a website, etc...and find a > bunch of irrelevant posts that I made on Usenet. > I did not mind when it was only on Google, but now it is spread across > countless web-sites gathered up by blindly marching bots. If you stop to think about it, that is all Google is; a gigantic bot vacuuming up everything and then serving it up on demand with advertising added. So what is the difference? (Don't get me wrong, I don't think Google is necessarily a bad thing. I am just trying to understand the difference between a "good bot" and a "bad bot".) Vaughn I am not sure there are any good bots. When it was just Google, it was one place, now the postings are spread through so many different web-sites. I guess I object to not knowing so many sites were harvesting our comments and placing them in front of lay-people as the only source of information. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >> I did not mind when it was only on Google, but now it is spread across [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Vaughn A good bot brushes AND flosses. SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org www.mormons.com > I did not mind when it was only on Google, but now it is spread across > countless web-sites gathered up by blindly marching bots. If you stop to think about it, that is all Google is; a gigantic bot vacuuming up everything and then serving it up on demand with advertising added. So what is the difference? (Don't get me wrong, I don't think Google is necessarily a bad thing. I am just trying to understand the difference between a "good bot" and a "bad bot".) Vaughn |
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