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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / June 2005

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Fee Question / Ripoff?

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tdavis34@gmail.com - 03 Jun 2005 00:14 GMT
I was at new dentist today and left positively AGHAST at what she
wanted to charge me. Can someone tell me if I'm just behind the times,
or if this sounds like a ripoff?

She checked my gums and determined that the pocket between the gum and
one of my molars was 7mm, so she immediately tried to schedule me for a
$345 gingivectomy. Is that normal?

Also, I told her I have no pain and am generally satisfied with the
appearance of my teeth, yet she tried to sell me on a whole bleaching
program and Invisalign braces (my front bottom teeth are SLIGHTLY
crooked, but no real gaps) which would tack on another $3K-$4K.

She couldn't find any real cavities, but told me I needed to have all
my old silver fillings ripped out and replaced, and since one of the
fillings (done 2 years ago) was very big and left the tooth (a molar) a
bit thin, that she strongly recommended a $1300 crown.

Basically, if I did everything she recommended (oh, forgot to include a
$500 mouth guard), I'd be shelling out close to $10K. I mean, I went to
another dentist two years ago (though I stopped going to him because I
felt he was a bit doddering) and he let me go with a clean bill of
health - is it possible my teeth have declined so badly in 2 years? I
brush at least once a day, am 35 years old and generally very healthy.

Any dentists out there, please offer your honest opinion as to whether
this all sounds legit or not.
Charlie - 03 Jun 2005 01:11 GMT
Can't tell from afar if your new dentist is legit or not.  She does sound
like a bit of a salesperson, although there's nothing wrong with presenting
all of the potential, legitimate improvements - from a dental viewpoint -
that could be made for you.  Obviously, a great deal of dental work is
elective from a biologic standpoint, i.e. no impact on your physical
health, such as the Invisalign & bleaching.  I will point out the potential
for bleaching to a patient if I think their tooth color is really having a
negative impact on their appearance.  Same with orthodontics.

And it's certainly legitimate to address a 7 mm pocket. I'd think the
"gingivectomy" was just a localized procedure - I'd hope she wasn't going
to surgerize your entire mouth for one tooth surface of pocketing.  I do
have to wonder whether there might be a nonsurgical approach that'd work
for you.

Are her fees high?  You'd have to ask a local dentist that.  $1300 for a
crown would be a lot in Upstate NY, although there are certainly dentists
here who charge that, most of them prosthodontists.  "Average" would be
about $800.

You want my gut feeling?  Here it is, and the disclaimer is that I may be
completely wrong 'cause I haven't examined you myself: There are two types
of dentists, philosophy-wise, where I live.  The first group pretty much
pushes only the minimal amount of of dentistry that is necessary to
maintain a healthy dentition.  They might mention bleaching, orthodontics,
bad breath management and other "elective" treatments as they see fit, but
they're basically conservative clinicians.

The other group is - you guessed it - the marketers, the docs whose vision
is laser-beamed onto their gross income rather than their patients' needs.
They push bleaching and orthodontics at patients who don't need them, they
replace fillings that are completely servicable, they crown and onlay teeth
that don't need it......and the sad thing is, they make a more money than
group one.

But group one sleeps better.  Frankly, your new doc sounds like group two.
If you've truly been advised to replace all of your old fillings when a doc
declared you dentally fit 2 years ago, then either (a) your teeth are
falling apart awfully fast for a healthy young guy (b) doc #1 was
incompetent or (c) doc #2 is one of these "marketers".

Drop 40 bucks and get a second opinion.  If you don't know who to see, ask
your friends, ask a dental lab, ask a periodontist, ask at a dental school.
tdavis34@gmail.com - 03 Jun 2005 02:00 GMT
Hi Charlie,

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply.

I must say my overwhelming feeling as I was in there is that they were
trying to find everything under the sun and was very uncomfortable with
the whole experience. The dentist herself pretty much just assumed I
would start right up with everything she suggested and didn't really
leave me any room to do things over time, elect one treatment vs.
another, etc. When I told her how shocked I was about all the things
she "found" and that the idea of shelling out $10K for dental work
given that I feel I'm generally in pretty good shape dentally, she
replied that they have interest-free financing available. You know that
feeling you get when you take your car into a suspicious auto repair
shop and they just start going on and on about the stuff that you
should do, mixing in a bit of scare tactics, etc.? That's precisely how
I felt. Anyway, I had made an appointment to do a cleaning for next
week (another $300, I believe), but got home and thought better of it
and canceled. I *am* going to go to another dentist (the one my mother
goes to and says is just fine) who apparently charges more like $700
for a crown. As far as localities, I am in Raleigh, North Carolina.

Again, thanks so much for your valuable advice, and I fully intend to
follow it.

-Tim
clifffreeling@yahoo.com - 03 Jun 2005 20:37 GMT
>Anyway, I had made an appointment to do a cleaning for next
> week (another $300, I believe), but got home and thought better of it
> and canceled.

Yeah, I'd RUN, not walk, away from this bozo.  $300 for a cleaning???
She never quits does she... BTW, I mentioned this before here,
and I'll do it again.  "Cleanings" at the dental office are
overrated, IMO, for folks who normall practice good hygiene.
I think many use if for an excuse to get you back in there
on a regular basis.  Also, adult human teeth are natually yellowish
in color, not white.  That teeth should be this unnatural white
glow is a myth.  I guess white teeth do look better, if they're
not too white, then again, that's probably because I've fallen
for the same silly notion that whiteness is somehow related to
dental health.

--
Cliff
tdavis34@gmail.com - 03 Jun 2005 22:54 GMT
Thanks, W_B and Cliff for your replies...

I am definitely going to see someone else for a second opinion. I never
thought about gender/race when picking a doctor (my previous physician
was an African American male and was excellent... too bad he retired),
but I generally have had male medical care in my life. The new dentist
I'm going to see just happens to be a white male - I'm sure there will
be a difference between him and the woman I saw yesterday (white and
most likely in her mid-40's), but I would be a bit surprised if the
difference had much to do with gender alone. Anyway, I got a bad
feeling from one yesterday from the minute I walked in... she just
seemed robotic, cold, soulless even (her demeanor reminded me of the
old "Stepford Wives" movie), and dished out thousand-dollars treatment
"requirements" in the same cavalier manner people choose toppings for a
pizza. I was clearly uncomfortable about the outrageous amount of money
she was racking up and she clearly couldn't have cared less. Anyway, I
just think it's the case of "one bad apple"... I happen to believe,
however, that she is making a fortune in her practice... she is nestled
in a very wealthy area here and I think most folks just do what she
tells them without raising a fuss. One thing is for sure: when I told
her how incredulous I was at the amount of work that "needs" to be done
and the near 5-digit prices she was talking about, telling me about
their "interest-free financing" was absolutely the WRONG ANSWER. If she
wanted to at least ATTEMPT to avoid giving the impression of the
money-grubbing businesswoman in dentist's clothing, she might have
chosen that point to inform me that not all of was necessary, or at
least, not all right away.
xyzer@hotmail.com - 07 Jun 2005 01:38 GMT
> Thanks, W_B and Cliff for your replies...
<snip>
>One thing is for sure: when I told
>her how incredulous I was at the amount of work that "needs" to be done
>and the near 5-digit prices she was talking about, telling me about
>their "interest-free financing" was absolutely the WRONG ANSWER.
<snip>

Not that it wasn't, but just in case it wasn't, anytime ANYONE tells
you they have "interest-free financing," your immediate instinct should
be, "yeah, only nominally... I'm sure your inflated price (due to not
charging any nominal interest) more than makes up for your nominal
forgone interest."

I assume anybody who tells me they have "interest-free financing"
thinks I'm not very bright at all.
Dr Steve - 07 Jun 2005 14:43 GMT
We can provide interest free financing through GE Financial to anyone with
reasonable credit.  The catch is that the total bill must be paid off by the
maturation date (3 mo./6 mo./9 mo./12 mo./18 mo. depending on the amount
financed).  Otherwise, GE Financial will bill the patient interest from day
one.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S.
Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
>> Thanks, W_B and Cliff for your replies...
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> I assume anybody who tells me they have "interest-free financing"
> thinks I'm not very bright at all.
xyzer@hotmail.com - 07 Jun 2005 18:50 GMT
Yeah, perhaps I was a bit harsh ... not everybody who uses
interest-free financing is trying to trick people... I guess I should
just look at it as another type of financing arrangement.  Some people
might need it more than others.

> We can provide interest free financing through GE Financial to anyone with
> reasonable credit.  The catch is that the total bill must be paid off by the
> maturation date (3 mo./6 mo./9 mo./12 mo./18 mo. depending on the amount
> financed).  Otherwise, GE Financial will bill the patient interest from day
> one.

> This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
> Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> > I assume anybody who tells me they have "interest-free financing"
> > thinks I'm not very bright at all.
W_B - 06 Jun 2005 19:07 GMT
>I mentioned this before here,
>and I'll do it again.  "Cleanings" at the dental office are
>overrated, IMO, for folks who normall practice good hygiene.

As Colonel Potter famously said:

"Horse Hockey !"
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr Steve - 03 Jun 2005 13:27 GMT
No way to be specific without an examination.  Often the first line of
attack of to scale and root plane the offending area, then re-evaluate.
Some offices like to open the tissue right away to make sure they can see
the roots and get them perfectly clean.  $345 is too much money for a one
tooth gingivectomy, but it would be right for osseous surgery in a quadrant,
so I don't know what they want to do.

However, reading your quotation:
>She couldn't find any real cavities, but told me I needed to have all
> my old silver fillings ripped out and replaced, and since one of the
> fillings (done 2 years ago) was very big and left the tooth (a molar) a
> bit thin, that she strongly recommended a $1300 crown
makes me very suspicious.  If you don't like the looks of the amalgam
fillings and want them removed, that is fine, but don't do it because the
dentist does not like them.  Good amalgams will last for decades and CAUSE
NO HEALTH PROBLEMS.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S.
Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>I was at new dentist today and left positively AGHAST at what she
> wanted to charge me. Can someone tell me if I'm just behind the times,
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Any dentists out there, please offer your honest opinion as to whether
> this all sounds legit or not.
W_B - 03 Jun 2005 16:37 GMT
>Basically, if I did everything she recommended (oh, forgot to include a
>$500 mouth guard), I'd be shelling out close to $10K. I mean, I went to
>another dentist two years ago (though I stopped going to him because I
>felt he was a bit doddering) and he let me go with a clean bill of
>health - is it possible my teeth have declined so badly in 2 years? I

Possible but unlikely.

>brush at least once a day, am 35 years old and generally very healthy.
>
>Any dentists out there, please offer your honest opinion as to whether
>this all sounds legit or not.

When in doubt seek a second opinion.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
clifffreeling@yahoo.com - 03 Jun 2005 20:29 GMT
<snipped for space>

Whew!!!

t, I've got a bit of advice for you.  You can call me sexist,
old fashioned, bigoted, anything you like, but it's advice
I live by.  I DO NOT seek medical or dental care from women
or minority providers.  However, I AM NOT claiming that ALL
women and minority MD's and DDS's are incompetent and/or
$ grubbing with little thought of much else, but *statistically*,
you're gonna be better off with a white male.  For some time
now, members of the previously mentioned groups have been much
sought after by the medical and dental schools of America.  Rules
have been bent to get them, and keep them.  I believe that many
of these graduates went into their field out of something other
than love of helping people (and making a little money at it of
course).

I have recently been seeing a dentist, for the first time in
several *decades*.  (BTW, he is astounded by the good condition
of my bone, gums, and teeth, which I've been aware of all along.)
I chose a Southern (like me), white gent, age 40...I actually
check all this stuff out.  I think I made a good choice, as I
have no doubt of his professionalism, even if he did hit me with
a $1200 crown.:)  But your experience reminded me a little of
an experience I had with a woman dermatologist 10 years ago.  I
had made an appointment with a white male derm. because of a
funny looking, and growing, dark mole on my chest.  The guy doc
did do the cutting of the thing out for the pathologists, but when
I went back a week later to get the stitches ripped (no exaggeration)
out, his female bimbo MD associate did the honors.  While she had
me in her grasp, she reminded me that they'd be glad to take any
of the other (normal, small) moles I had off too (for a nice fee
for each one of course)!  Sheesh.  I politely declined her offer.

It sounds like your choice was particularly egregious with her
actions.  I wonder how long she'll last...

--
Cliff
Tom - 04 Jun 2005 21:13 GMT
><snipped for space>
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I live by.  I DO NOT seek medical or dental care from women
>or minority providers.

You're just stupid!

You'll find that out some day when some white male takes you for every
penny you've got... you're the male equivalent of the dumb blonde!

Tom
clifffreeling@yahoo.com - 05 Jun 2005 01:07 GMT
> You're just stupid!

So is my sister.  She always has chosen female medical and dental
providers (I think she feels intimidated by males in these situations).
Anyway, it just so happens that I spoke with her today over the phone,
about dental work.  I was telling her about my new crown (first ever)
and she casually added that when she got hers (from her girl dentist)
that "they were looking around the office trying to find a temp that
would fit," or something very similar.  She said she ended up with
some crude thing that started coming loose as she drove home from
the dentist's office that day!  Instead of turning her a.s around,
as I would've done, right back to the dentist, she just ambled home,
and tried to glue the thing or something.  Unfortunately, my sister
is much older than me, and usually decides which MD's my 83 year-old
mother sees (she and my mother also live in the same small town).
And you guessed it, it's usually female providers, as she'll beat
all the bushes till she finds one.  And my Mom's suffered for it,
I'm convinced.  I won't go into details, but there are many.

> You'll find that out some day when some white male takes you for every
> penny you've got...

Won't happen.

>you're the male equivalent of the dumb blonde!

You sound like a male chauvinist pig!

--
Cliff
leaderdmd@juno.com - 05 Jun 2005 18:46 GMT
Tim,

Nothing that is in your post appears unusual to me.  My advice to
everyone is that it is always a good idea to get a second opinion when
you are facing this much treatment.  You will either find a treatment
that you like better, or you will confirm this dentist's diagnosis.
Either way you win.

Dentists have different philosophies.  One dentist may believe that it
is better to allow things to slowly get worse until the patient needs
even more treatment than you describe or even dentures while another
may be very adept at finding problems early and heading them off.

For example, a patient came into my office having broken a tooth.  I
could have fixed it with a crown, but that would not have taken into
account why the tooth had broken.  This patient had broken the tooth
and then a few fillings previously.  It ended up that he had a
malocclusion (bad bite) and needed braces to even the biting pressure
on his teeth.  His teeth had no spaces, and his front teeth were
straight, but his bite was causing serious wear to his molars.  When
the orthodontic treatment is finished, a crown will do the trick.

Get your second opinion, keep an open mind.  don't listen to sexists
and bigots.  My dentist is a woman and so is my eye doctor; I wouldn't
have it any other way.

Dave Leader, DMD
Dr. Steve - 05 Jun 2005 20:39 GMT
>Tim,
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
>Dave Leader, DMD

Betcha the patient continues to break teeth after ortho.  I  have read
plenty of studies  to convince me that occlusion does hot break teeth.
..
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA

I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
clifffreeling@yahoo.com - 05 Jun 2005 21:21 GMT
> Get your second opinion, keep an open mind.  don't listen to sexists
> and bigots.  My dentist is a woman and so is my eye doctor; I wouldn't
> have it any other way.

Why wouldn't you have it any other way?  I suppose that you and
Tom also believe that women and minorities are not given any
preferential treatment when it comes to medical & dental school,
hiring, etc...

BTW, having an "open mind" when it conflicts with better judgement
can get you burned.  I used to have more of an "open mind" until
I got tired of paying for such "open mindedness."

--
Cliff
Dr Steve - 06 Jun 2005 17:40 GMT
That is currently creating a man-power crisis for this field.  Right now
almost 50% of DS classes are made up of women.  Most never practice full
time.  Many will only practice until having a family, then return to work
later as part-time.  Many will practice full-time for their either careers,
but not enough.  At this rate, we will have a huge shortage of dentists in a
few years.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S.
Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
>> Get your second opinion, keep an open mind.  don't listen to sexists
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> --
> Cliff
W_B - 06 Jun 2005 20:03 GMT
>That is currently creating a man-power crisis for this field.  Right now
>almost 50% of DS classes are made up of women.  Most never practice full
>time.  Many will only practice until having a family, then return to work
>later as part-time.  Many will practice full-time for their either careers,
>but not enough.  At this rate, we will have a huge shortage of dentists in a
>few years.

Good for us, bad for the public.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
 
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