Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / June 2005
Fee Question / Ripoff?
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tdavis34@gmail.com - 03 Jun 2005 00:14 GMT I was at new dentist today and left positively AGHAST at what she wanted to charge me. Can someone tell me if I'm just behind the times, or if this sounds like a ripoff?
She checked my gums and determined that the pocket between the gum and one of my molars was 7mm, so she immediately tried to schedule me for a $345 gingivectomy. Is that normal?
Also, I told her I have no pain and am generally satisfied with the appearance of my teeth, yet she tried to sell me on a whole bleaching program and Invisalign braces (my front bottom teeth are SLIGHTLY crooked, but no real gaps) which would tack on another $3K-$4K.
She couldn't find any real cavities, but told me I needed to have all my old silver fillings ripped out and replaced, and since one of the fillings (done 2 years ago) was very big and left the tooth (a molar) a bit thin, that she strongly recommended a $1300 crown.
Basically, if I did everything she recommended (oh, forgot to include a $500 mouth guard), I'd be shelling out close to $10K. I mean, I went to another dentist two years ago (though I stopped going to him because I felt he was a bit doddering) and he let me go with a clean bill of health - is it possible my teeth have declined so badly in 2 years? I brush at least once a day, am 35 years old and generally very healthy.
Any dentists out there, please offer your honest opinion as to whether this all sounds legit or not.
Charlie - 03 Jun 2005 01:11 GMT Can't tell from afar if your new dentist is legit or not. She does sound like a bit of a salesperson, although there's nothing wrong with presenting all of the potential, legitimate improvements - from a dental viewpoint - that could be made for you. Obviously, a great deal of dental work is elective from a biologic standpoint, i.e. no impact on your physical health, such as the Invisalign & bleaching. I will point out the potential for bleaching to a patient if I think their tooth color is really having a negative impact on their appearance. Same with orthodontics.
And it's certainly legitimate to address a 7 mm pocket. I'd think the "gingivectomy" was just a localized procedure - I'd hope she wasn't going to surgerize your entire mouth for one tooth surface of pocketing. I do have to wonder whether there might be a nonsurgical approach that'd work for you.
Are her fees high? You'd have to ask a local dentist that. $1300 for a crown would be a lot in Upstate NY, although there are certainly dentists here who charge that, most of them prosthodontists. "Average" would be about $800.
You want my gut feeling? Here it is, and the disclaimer is that I may be completely wrong 'cause I haven't examined you myself: There are two types of dentists, philosophy-wise, where I live. The first group pretty much pushes only the minimal amount of of dentistry that is necessary to maintain a healthy dentition. They might mention bleaching, orthodontics, bad breath management and other "elective" treatments as they see fit, but they're basically conservative clinicians.
The other group is - you guessed it - the marketers, the docs whose vision is laser-beamed onto their gross income rather than their patients' needs. They push bleaching and orthodontics at patients who don't need them, they replace fillings that are completely servicable, they crown and onlay teeth that don't need it......and the sad thing is, they make a more money than group one.
But group one sleeps better. Frankly, your new doc sounds like group two. If you've truly been advised to replace all of your old fillings when a doc declared you dentally fit 2 years ago, then either (a) your teeth are falling apart awfully fast for a healthy young guy (b) doc #1 was incompetent or (c) doc #2 is one of these "marketers".
Drop 40 bucks and get a second opinion. If you don't know who to see, ask your friends, ask a dental lab, ask a periodontist, ask at a dental school.
tdavis34@gmail.com - 03 Jun 2005 02:00 GMT Hi Charlie,
Thanks so much for taking the time to reply.
I must say my overwhelming feeling as I was in there is that they were trying to find everything under the sun and was very uncomfortable with the whole experience. The dentist herself pretty much just assumed I would start right up with everything she suggested and didn't really leave me any room to do things over time, elect one treatment vs. another, etc. When I told her how shocked I was about all the things she "found" and that the idea of shelling out $10K for dental work given that I feel I'm generally in pretty good shape dentally, she replied that they have interest-free financing available. You know that feeling you get when you take your car into a suspicious auto repair shop and they just start going on and on about the stuff that you should do, mixing in a bit of scare tactics, etc.? That's precisely how I felt. Anyway, I had made an appointment to do a cleaning for next week (another $300, I believe), but got home and thought better of it and canceled. I *am* going to go to another dentist (the one my mother goes to and says is just fine) who apparently charges more like $700 for a crown. As far as localities, I am in Raleigh, North Carolina.
Again, thanks so much for your valuable advice, and I fully intend to follow it.
-Tim
clifffreeling@yahoo.com - 03 Jun 2005 20:37 GMT >Anyway, I had made an appointment to do a cleaning for next > week (another $300, I believe), but got home and thought better of it > and canceled. Yeah, I'd RUN, not walk, away from this bozo. $300 for a cleaning??? She never quits does she... BTW, I mentioned this before here, and I'll do it again. "Cleanings" at the dental office are overrated, IMO, for folks who normall practice good hygiene. I think many use if for an excuse to get you back in there on a regular basis. Also, adult human teeth are natually yellowish in color, not white. That teeth should be this unnatural white glow is a myth. I guess white teeth do look better, if they're not too white, then again, that's probably because I've fallen for the same silly notion that whiteness is somehow related to dental health.
-- Cliff
tdavis34@gmail.com - 03 Jun 2005 22:54 GMT Thanks, W_B and Cliff for your replies...
I am definitely going to see someone else for a second opinion. I never thought about gender/race when picking a doctor (my previous physician was an African American male and was excellent... too bad he retired), but I generally have had male medical care in my life. The new dentist I'm going to see just happens to be a white male - I'm sure there will be a difference between him and the woman I saw yesterday (white and most likely in her mid-40's), but I would be a bit surprised if the difference had much to do with gender alone. Anyway, I got a bad feeling from one yesterday from the minute I walked in... she just seemed robotic, cold, soulless even (her demeanor reminded me of the old "Stepford Wives" movie), and dished out thousand-dollars treatment "requirements" in the same cavalier manner people choose toppings for a pizza. I was clearly uncomfortable about the outrageous amount of money she was racking up and she clearly couldn't have cared less. Anyway, I just think it's the case of "one bad apple"... I happen to believe, however, that she is making a fortune in her practice... she is nestled in a very wealthy area here and I think most folks just do what she tells them without raising a fuss. One thing is for sure: when I told her how incredulous I was at the amount of work that "needs" to be done and the near 5-digit prices she was talking about, telling me about their "interest-free financing" was absolutely the WRONG ANSWER. If she wanted to at least ATTEMPT to avoid giving the impression of the money-grubbing businesswoman in dentist's clothing, she might have chosen that point to inform me that not all of was necessary, or at least, not all right away.
xyzer@hotmail.com - 07 Jun 2005 01:38 GMT > Thanks, W_B and Cliff for your replies... <snip>
>One thing is for sure: when I told >her how incredulous I was at the amount of work that "needs" to be done >and the near 5-digit prices she was talking about, telling me about >their "interest-free financing" was absolutely the WRONG ANSWER. <snip>
Not that it wasn't, but just in case it wasn't, anytime ANYONE tells you they have "interest-free financing," your immediate instinct should be, "yeah, only nominally... I'm sure your inflated price (due to not charging any nominal interest) more than makes up for your nominal forgone interest."
I assume anybody who tells me they have "interest-free financing" thinks I'm not very bright at all.
Dr Steve - 07 Jun 2005 14:43 GMT We can provide interest free financing through GE Financial to anyone with reasonable credit. The catch is that the total bill must be paid off by the maturation date (3 mo./6 mo./9 mo./12 mo./18 mo. depending on the amount financed). Otherwise, GE Financial will bill the patient interest from day one.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
> >> Thanks, W_B and Cliff for your replies... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I assume anybody who tells me they have "interest-free financing" > thinks I'm not very bright at all. xyzer@hotmail.com - 07 Jun 2005 18:50 GMT Yeah, perhaps I was a bit harsh ... not everybody who uses interest-free financing is trying to trick people... I guess I should just look at it as another type of financing arrangement. Some people might need it more than others.
> We can provide interest free financing through GE Financial to anyone with > reasonable credit. The catch is that the total bill must be paid off by the > maturation date (3 mo./6 mo./9 mo./12 mo./18 mo. depending on the amount > financed). Otherwise, GE Financial will bill the patient interest from day > one.
> This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. > Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I assume anybody who tells me they have "interest-free financing" > > thinks I'm not very bright at all. W_B - 06 Jun 2005 19:07 GMT >I mentioned this before here, >and I'll do it again. "Cleanings" at the dental office are >overrated, IMO, for folks who normall practice good hygiene. As Colonel Potter famously said:
"Horse Hockey !" --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr Steve - 03 Jun 2005 13:27 GMT No way to be specific without an examination. Often the first line of attack of to scale and root plane the offending area, then re-evaluate. Some offices like to open the tissue right away to make sure they can see the roots and get them perfectly clean. $345 is too much money for a one tooth gingivectomy, but it would be right for osseous surgery in a quadrant, so I don't know what they want to do.
However, reading your quotation:
>She couldn't find any real cavities, but told me I needed to have all > my old silver fillings ripped out and replaced, and since one of the > fillings (done 2 years ago) was very big and left the tooth (a molar) a > bit thin, that she strongly recommended a $1300 crown makes me very suspicious. If you don't like the looks of the amalgam fillings and want them removed, that is fine, but don't do it because the dentist does not like them. Good amalgams will last for decades and CAUSE NO HEALTH PROBLEMS.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
>I was at new dentist today and left positively AGHAST at what she > wanted to charge me. Can someone tell me if I'm just behind the times, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Any dentists out there, please offer your honest opinion as to whether > this all sounds legit or not. W_B - 03 Jun 2005 16:37 GMT >Basically, if I did everything she recommended (oh, forgot to include a >$500 mouth guard), I'd be shelling out close to $10K. I mean, I went to >another dentist two years ago (though I stopped going to him because I >felt he was a bit doddering) and he let me go with a clean bill of >health - is it possible my teeth have declined so badly in 2 years? I Possible but unlikely.
>brush at least once a day, am 35 years old and generally very healthy. > >Any dentists out there, please offer your honest opinion as to whether >this all sounds legit or not. When in doubt seek a second opinion. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
clifffreeling@yahoo.com - 03 Jun 2005 20:29 GMT <snipped for space>
Whew!!!
t, I've got a bit of advice for you. You can call me sexist, old fashioned, bigoted, anything you like, but it's advice I live by. I DO NOT seek medical or dental care from women or minority providers. However, I AM NOT claiming that ALL women and minority MD's and DDS's are incompetent and/or $ grubbing with little thought of much else, but *statistically*, you're gonna be better off with a white male. For some time now, members of the previously mentioned groups have been much sought after by the medical and dental schools of America. Rules have been bent to get them, and keep them. I believe that many of these graduates went into their field out of something other than love of helping people (and making a little money at it of course).
I have recently been seeing a dentist, for the first time in several *decades*. (BTW, he is astounded by the good condition of my bone, gums, and teeth, which I've been aware of all along.) I chose a Southern (like me), white gent, age 40...I actually check all this stuff out. I think I made a good choice, as I have no doubt of his professionalism, even if he did hit me with a $1200 crown.:) But your experience reminded me a little of an experience I had with a woman dermatologist 10 years ago. I had made an appointment with a white male derm. because of a funny looking, and growing, dark mole on my chest. The guy doc did do the cutting of the thing out for the pathologists, but when I went back a week later to get the stitches ripped (no exaggeration) out, his female bimbo MD associate did the honors. While she had me in her grasp, she reminded me that they'd be glad to take any of the other (normal, small) moles I had off too (for a nice fee for each one of course)! Sheesh. I politely declined her offer.
It sounds like your choice was particularly egregious with her actions. I wonder how long she'll last...
-- Cliff
Tom - 04 Jun 2005 21:13 GMT ><snipped for space> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I live by. I DO NOT seek medical or dental care from women >or minority providers. You're just stupid!
You'll find that out some day when some white male takes you for every penny you've got... you're the male equivalent of the dumb blonde!
Tom
clifffreeling@yahoo.com - 05 Jun 2005 01:07 GMT > You're just stupid! So is my sister. She always has chosen female medical and dental providers (I think she feels intimidated by males in these situations). Anyway, it just so happens that I spoke with her today over the phone, about dental work. I was telling her about my new crown (first ever) and she casually added that when she got hers (from her girl dentist) that "they were looking around the office trying to find a temp that would fit," or something very similar. She said she ended up with some crude thing that started coming loose as she drove home from the dentist's office that day! Instead of turning her a.s around, as I would've done, right back to the dentist, she just ambled home, and tried to glue the thing or something. Unfortunately, my sister is much older than me, and usually decides which MD's my 83 year-old mother sees (she and my mother also live in the same small town). And you guessed it, it's usually female providers, as she'll beat all the bushes till she finds one. And my Mom's suffered for it, I'm convinced. I won't go into details, but there are many.
> You'll find that out some day when some white male takes you for every > penny you've got... Won't happen.
>you're the male equivalent of the dumb blonde! You sound like a male chauvinist pig!
-- Cliff
leaderdmd@juno.com - 05 Jun 2005 18:46 GMT Tim,
Nothing that is in your post appears unusual to me. My advice to everyone is that it is always a good idea to get a second opinion when you are facing this much treatment. You will either find a treatment that you like better, or you will confirm this dentist's diagnosis. Either way you win.
Dentists have different philosophies. One dentist may believe that it is better to allow things to slowly get worse until the patient needs even more treatment than you describe or even dentures while another may be very adept at finding problems early and heading them off.
For example, a patient came into my office having broken a tooth. I could have fixed it with a crown, but that would not have taken into account why the tooth had broken. This patient had broken the tooth and then a few fillings previously. It ended up that he had a malocclusion (bad bite) and needed braces to even the biting pressure on his teeth. His teeth had no spaces, and his front teeth were straight, but his bite was causing serious wear to his molars. When the orthodontic treatment is finished, a crown will do the trick.
Get your second opinion, keep an open mind. don't listen to sexists and bigots. My dentist is a woman and so is my eye doctor; I wouldn't have it any other way.
Dave Leader, DMD
Dr. Steve - 05 Jun 2005 20:39 GMT >Tim, > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Dave Leader, DMD Betcha the patient continues to break teeth after ortho. I have read plenty of studies to convince me that occlusion does hot break teeth. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA
I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
clifffreeling@yahoo.com - 05 Jun 2005 21:21 GMT > Get your second opinion, keep an open mind. don't listen to sexists > and bigots. My dentist is a woman and so is my eye doctor; I wouldn't > have it any other way. Why wouldn't you have it any other way? I suppose that you and Tom also believe that women and minorities are not given any preferential treatment when it comes to medical & dental school, hiring, etc...
BTW, having an "open mind" when it conflicts with better judgement can get you burned. I used to have more of an "open mind" until I got tired of paying for such "open mindedness."
-- Cliff
Dr Steve - 06 Jun 2005 17:40 GMT That is currently creating a man-power crisis for this field. Right now almost 50% of DS classes are made up of women. Most never practice full time. Many will only practice until having a family, then return to work later as part-time. Many will practice full-time for their either careers, but not enough. At this rate, we will have a huge shortage of dentists in a few years.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
> >> Get your second opinion, keep an open mind. don't listen to sexists [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > -- > Cliff W_B - 06 Jun 2005 20:03 GMT >That is currently creating a man-power crisis for this field. Right now >almost 50% of DS classes are made up of women. Most never practice full >time. Many will only practice until having a family, then return to work >later as part-time. Many will practice full-time for their either careers, >but not enough. At this rate, we will have a huge shortage of dentists in a >few years. Good for us, bad for the public. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
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