Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / July 2005
Composites and deep carious lesions
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Minder - 29 May 2005 11:31 GMT As part of our training we are sent on outreach placements in the UK
Had a 21yo pt from a deprived part of yorkshire.
High caries rate. Nearly all his upper ant. teeth had class III lesions.
I decided to restore UL 2 mesial and UL 1 distal.
On the central, the caries extended from the palatal aspect all the way to the facial aspect, and then inwards close to the pulp.
The tutor told me not to put dycal as it reduces the surface area for bonding for a composite. So I just etched, bonding agent, and composite placement, and polished. Got a very nice aesthetic result. I was really pleased with the result, pt however couldnt care less (not surprising really judging from the state of his teeth.)
What I want to know is, if you had a fairly deep lesion, close to the pulp, would you use GIC as a liner and then composite on top. Which causes more pulpal irritation, GIC resin or composite resin.
Suffice to say, he phoned up a day later complaining of pain. I told him to take some analgesics and see if the pain subsides. Luckily it did.
George Chatzipetros - 29 May 2005 22:07 GMT > As part of our training we are sent on outreach placements in the UK Guys, Minder is one of the poor students exploited by the UK government to fill the holes in the crumbling NHS dental service. They now send them around to meet demands and call this "part of the training". Nothing personal Minder :)
> The tutor told me not to put dycal as it reduces the surface area for > bonding for a composite. > So I just etched, bonding agent, and composite placement, and polished. Got > a very nice aesthetic result. I was really pleased with the result, pt > however couldnt care less (not surprising really judging from the state of > his teeth.) Minder, my first post in this forum was pretty much the same as yours: how to do good posterior composites. What I've learnt is to ditch dycal, GI as well as pretty much everything I've learnt in the school. Since then, I've bonded directly no matter how close I was to the pulp, used a layer of flowable composite and then finished with a packable or hybrid composite placed in small increments. Excellent results and any post-op pain or sensitivity is much-much less than when I've been using GI as a base.
Take care, George
W_B - 31 May 2005 16:41 GMT >> As part of our training we are sent on outreach placements in the UK > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >Take care, >George Hurriseal. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Steven Fawks - 31 May 2005 19:23 GMT SE Bond.
Fawks
> Hurriseal. > -- > > W_B W_B - 31 May 2005 19:25 GMT That stuff works very well.
>SE Bond. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> W_B --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr Steve - 31 May 2005 19:53 GMT Yup, I found that using Hurriseal after etching and before BA, reduces post-op sensitivity to nearly zero.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
> >>> As part of our training we are sent on outreach placements in the UK [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com StovePipe - 04 Jul 2005 15:05 GMT > Yup, I found that using Hurriseal after etching and before BA, reduces > post-op sensitivity to nearly zero. So, let's see: if you want to Hurriseal using SE bond, you would use it after the Primer and before the Bond liquid?... Or are you better off using eithe SE Bond alone?
Thanks SP
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Dr. Steve - 05 Jul 2005 02:33 GMT >> Yup, I found that using Hurriseal after etching and before BA, reduces >> post-op sensitivity to nearly zero. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Thanks >SP Hi Capt. Stove,
I would use the Hurriseal BEFORE the primer. .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA
I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
StovePipe - 05 Jul 2005 05:49 GMT > >> Yup, I found that using Hurriseal after etching and before BA, reduces > >> post-op sensitivity to nearly zero. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. Hi backatcha DrS!
Thanks for your thoughts. I just thought that since you Hurriseeel after etching in traditional bonding, you would add it after the self etch primer of SE bond.
Silly me.
Thanks again. SP
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StovePipe - 04 Jul 2005 15:05 GMT > > As part of our training we are sent on outreach placements in the UK > > Guys, Minder is one of the poor students exploited by the UK government > to fill the holes in the crumbling NHS dental service. They now send > them around to meet demands and call this "part of the training". > Nothing personal Minder :) This was all too obvious at the get-go.
> > The tutor told me not to put dycal as it reduces the surface area for > > bonding for a composite. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Take care, > George You haven't used Fuji 9 like I have described yet, though.
SP
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Dr. Steve - 29 May 2005 23:18 GMT >As part of our training we are sent on outreach placements in the UK > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Suffice to say, he phoned up a day later complaining of pain. I told him to >take some analgesics and see if the pain subsides. Luckily it did. I only use CaOH as a temporary over a pin point pulp exposure. I flick it off just prior to bonding. Recent studies do not show CaOH to help in deep restorations. I use it to kill bacteria on the exposure prior to bonding. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA
I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
W_B - 31 May 2005 16:43 GMT >>Suffice to say, he phoned up a day later complaining of pain. I told him to >>take some analgesics and see if the pain subsides. Luckily it did. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >.. >Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. This is OK for very small mechanical exposures. Tri-ineral aggregate is better.
Pathologic exposures require RCT. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr Steve - 31 May 2005 19:55 GMT I agree. TMA is better, but this method works well to protect the pulpal tissues from salivary bacteria until you are ready to bond the restoration to place.
Like George says, it has to be a mechanical perforation, not a carious one.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
> >>>Suffice to say, he phoned up a day later complaining of pain. I told him [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com StovePipe - 04 Jul 2005 15:05 GMT > I agree. TMA is better, but this method works well to protect the pulpal > tissues from salivary bacteria until you are ready to bond the restoration > to place. > > Like George says, it has to be a mechanical perforation, not a carious one. Unless you have a Laser that is in working condition... Low power disinfection with lots of water spray... Too bad mine is not... In fact the WCLI is having a mini-convention here in November. If Biolase will not fix and guarantee my M1, I will not spend the money to support them either.
However: if anyone is thinking of coming up here to go to that conference, it _is_ in English (AFAIK) and we could meet up.
Cheers SP SP
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StovePipe - 04 Jul 2005 15:05 GMT > I only use CaOH as a temporary over a pin point pulp exposure. I flick > it off just prior to bonding. Recent studies do not show CaOH to help > in deep restorations. I use it to kill bacteria on the exposure prior > to bonding. In such case, some good ol' Bleach (NaOCl) on a cotton pellet could do the same thing, No?
Thanks SP
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Dr. Steve - 05 Jul 2005 02:38 GMT >> I only use CaOH as a temporary over a pin point pulp exposure. I flick >> it off just prior to bonding. Recent studies do not show CaOH to help [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >In such case, some good ol' Bleach (NaOCl) on a cotton pellet could do >the same thing, No? The bleach would help, but I am doing this with indirect restorations. I leave the CaOH on while we are milling. About 10 minutes. .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA
I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
StovePipe - 05 Jul 2005 05:49 GMT > >> I only use CaOH as a temporary over a pin point pulp exposure. I flick > >> it off just prior to bonding. Recent studies do not show CaOH to help [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. OK. Thanks. It only takes 10 minutes to mill the thing? That's amazing. SP
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mamounjo3@yahoo.com - 30 May 2005 21:01 GMT One of the gurus who researches pulp-capping is Charles Cox. He said if I recall correctly at a continuing ed speech, that the best pulp-capping material is just composite resin. You just need an inert biocompatible barrier over the exposed pulp, and composite resin is best. He said no one really understands why CaOH works as a pulp-capping agent, and that CaOH is a risky pulp-capping agent to use because it is brittle and may chip off in little pieces into the pulp, causing an inflammation reaction in the pulp-capping site. The rationale that CaOH raises PH and thus kills micro-organisms is not evidence-based. He says studies show that vitrebond or GIC show higher failure rates as pulp-capping agents compared to composite resin. Also that eugenol is toxic to the pulp and should not be used on vital pulps or pulp capping, so no ZOE. So the best pulp capping agent is apparently plain old etch, prime, bond, composite. Make sure the composite is cured perfectly over the pulp. Uncured composite may contain irritating chemicals. Put a thin layer over the pulp, light cure thoroughly, then build up the rest.
Also, be very careful of occlusal prematurities from the composite. Composite materials are challenging to adjust so that their occlusion is perfect. But if the occlusion is off on your composite, the patient may return with symptoms of sensitivity to hot and cold or sensitivity to biting that mimic those of irreversible pulptis. So you might think, oh, the tooth was pulp-capped, and now the nerve is dead because the patient has symptoms of irreversible pulptitis. But no! The truth may be that the pulp cap worked, but the occlusion was off, so the patient has symptoms. Don't do a pulpotomy on the tooth, just adjust the occlusion and wait and see. Use articulating paper prior to filling to note the occlusal mark pattern on the teeth on the contra-lateral side, then make sure after you fill the tooth that you can duplicate that same pattern of occlusal markings.
Realize that pulp-capping is not yet an exact science and that most of what was learned in dental school about this is conceptually disorganized garbage, like so much of what is learned in dental school. So, to summarize, don't use ZOE, don't use eugenol-containing things, don't use vitrebond, don't use CaOH, don't use dycal (which interferes with bonding of composite). Just pulp cap with plain old composite resin and make sure there are no occlusal prematurities. And if the patient comes back with pain, first adjust the occlusion and wait and see, and only if the pain is persistent should you consider pulpotomy and root canal.
--Johnny
W_B - 31 May 2005 16:54 GMT >One of the gurus who researches pulp-capping is Charles Cox. He said >if I recall correctly at a continuing ed speech, that the best >pulp-capping material is just composite resin. Nope.
Tri-mineral aggregate is the best material.
Do not pulp cap carious exposures, do RCT. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 04 Jul 2005 15:05 GMT > >One of the gurus who researches pulp-capping is Charles Cox. He said > >if I recall correctly at a continuing ed speech, that the best [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Do not pulp cap carious exposures, do RCT. > -- Can you use this to fill perforations when looking for fourth canals in molar Endos?
Thanks SP
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Dr. Steve - 05 Jul 2005 02:39 GMT >> >One of the gurus who researches pulp-capping is Charles Cox. He said >> >if I recall correctly at a continuing ed speech, that the best [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Thanks >SP Yes .. Stephen Troy, Michigan, USA
I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
StovePipe - 05 Jul 2005 05:49 GMT > >> >One of the gurus who researches pulp-capping is Charles Cox. He said > >> >if I recall correctly at a continuing ed speech, that the best [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Yes > .. Good. That's encourging. I have had this happen in the past. BTW, the last issue of (gasp!) DT magazine has two articles of interest. One is by Glenn Van As and is about finding the forth canal in molar Endo cases. His premise is that an operating microscope is mandatory, as is ultrasonics for digging out those MB2's. The other is by Jeffrey Mader entitled: "Cerec Dentists are Happy Dentists". He is an ISCD Certified CEREC trainer.
There is also a blurb about which lasers do which jobs.
OK. I'll shut up now. SP
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W_B - 05 Jul 2005 16:42 GMT > One is >by Glenn Van As and is about finding the forth canal in molar Endo >cases. His premise is that an operating microscope is mandatory, as is >ultrasonics for digging out those MB2's. The endodontic ultrasonic is a good idea.
An operating microscope is probably mandatory for an endodontist. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 06 Jul 2005 03:49 GMT > > One is > >by Glenn Van As and is about finding the forth canal in molar Endo [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > for an endodontist. > -- Well, as you said before, I shouldn't be doing the Endodontist's job, I should be doing the generalist's one.
Thanks SP
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W_B - 05 Jul 2005 16:20 GMT >> >One of the gurus who researches pulp-capping is Charles Cox. He said >> >if I recall correctly at a continuing ed speech, that the best [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Thanks >SP Yes absolutely. Went to a seminar last month, the endodontist recommended 'capping' perforations *immediately* with TMA. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 06 Jul 2005 03:49 GMT > >Can you use this to fill perforations when looking for fourth canals in > >molar Endos? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 'capping' perforations *immediately* with TMA. > -- Good. Thanks SP
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StovePipe - 04 Jul 2005 15:05 GMT > Realize that pulp-capping is not yet an exact science and that most of > what was learned in dental school about this is conceptually > disorganized garbage, like so much of what is learned in dental school. > So, to summarize, don't use ZOE, don't use eugenol-containing things, Earlier, this year, I said essentially the same thing, and like you I got my info from cont-ed cousese in modern filling materials, and I do what you have said. In fact, our Operative Professor was never a fan of ZnO-Eugenol preparations, as the eugenol ends up acting as a chronic irritant over the long term. This induces a gradual mummification of the pulp. However, Joel asked me for references for this, and I couldn't find any. So, there again, I'd say: do what works for you. If I had my Laser working, I'd be zapping the exposure at very low levels ( so as to not induce bleeding ) and then SE Bond'ing over it.
> don't use vitrebond, I would make exception for Fuji 9. It does have sedative properties, though it isn't understood.
>don't use CaOH, don't use dycal (which interferes > with bonding of composite). Just pulp cap with plain old composite > resin and make sure there are no occlusal prematurities. And if the > patient comes back with pain, first adjust the occlusion and wait and > see, and only if the pain is persistent should you consider pulpotomy > and root canal. Excellent advice, from where I sit and as I see it. SP
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StovePipe - 04 Jul 2005 15:05 GMT > As part of our training we are sent on outreach placements in the UK > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > however couldnt care less (not surprising really judging from the state of > his teeth.) This is an old thread (to say the least) but since I still don't have an internet reconnection, I'm looning through the old stuff that I never had time to get to (seein' as how I'm managing the World single-handedly these days).
I would have placed Fuji 9 on the whole shebang, and I would have painted over the F9 with the protective light cured varnish they supply for when you want F9 to be the final restoration. Then I would have just let it settle down for at least a couple of months. Then (assuming you could go back to do another procedure in two or three months) I would have thinned it down with diamond burs and LOTS of H2O (as in water) and relied on my memory and my nose to keep me from re-exposing the deep parts. Then I would have covered it over like you did with etch and bonding and composite. F9 etches and bonds well.
The advantage of this is that Fuji 9 has sedative properties in it. It is a compomer that was originally inteded to be an easy to place restoration for the Third World; BareFoot Doctor type stuff. Since then, the composite gurus have found this added advantage for it and I have personally found that doing just what I described above is often the best solution. Quebec is the Third World in the First World.
In fact, what happens is that they often cannot get back to me in three months time to have the work finished. So, six months to a year later, I have to be careful, as I no longer remember much about the prep's dangerous zones. If you have a camera, you could document the excavated tooth for later reference.
Hope this helps SP
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