Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / July 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Composites and deep carious lesions

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Minder - 29 May 2005 11:31 GMT
As part of our training we are sent on outreach placements in the UK

Had a 21yo pt from a deprived part of yorkshire.

High caries rate. Nearly all his upper ant. teeth had class  III lesions.

I decided to restore UL 2 mesial and UL 1 distal.

On the central, the caries extended from the palatal aspect all the way to
the facial aspect, and then inwards close to the pulp.

The tutor told me not to put dycal as it reduces the surface area for
bonding for a composite.
So I just etched, bonding agent, and composite placement, and polished. Got
a very nice aesthetic result. I was really pleased with the result, pt
however couldnt care less (not surprising really judging from the state of
his teeth.)

What I want to know is, if you had a fairly deep lesion, close to the pulp,
would you use GIC as a liner and then composite on top. Which causes more
pulpal irritation, GIC resin or composite resin.

Suffice to say, he phoned up a day later complaining of pain. I told him to
take some analgesics and see if the pain subsides. Luckily it did.
George Chatzipetros - 29 May 2005 22:07 GMT
> As part of our training we are sent on outreach placements in the UK

Guys, Minder is one of the poor students exploited by the UK government
to fill the holes in the crumbling NHS dental service. They now send
them around to meet demands and call this "part of the training".
Nothing personal Minder :)

> The tutor told me not to put dycal as it reduces the surface area for
> bonding for a composite.
> So I just etched, bonding agent, and composite placement, and polished. Got
> a very nice aesthetic result. I was really pleased with the result, pt
> however couldnt care less (not surprising really judging from the state of
> his teeth.)

Minder, my first post in this forum was pretty much the same as yours:
how to do good posterior composites. What I've learnt is to ditch
dycal, GI as well as pretty much everything I've learnt in the school.
Since then, I've bonded directly no matter how close I was to the pulp,
used a layer of flowable composite and then finished with a packable or
hybrid composite placed in small increments. Excellent results and any
post-op pain or sensitivity is much-much less than when I've been using
GI as a base.

Take care,
George
W_B - 31 May 2005 16:41 GMT
>> As part of our training we are sent on outreach placements in the UK
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>Take care,
>George

Hurriseal.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Steven Fawks - 31 May 2005 19:23 GMT
SE Bond.

Fawks

> Hurriseal.
> --
>
> W_B
W_B - 31 May 2005 19:25 GMT
That stuff works very well.

>SE Bond.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>
>> W_B

--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr Steve - 31 May 2005 19:53 GMT
Yup,  I found that using Hurriseal after etching and before BA, reduces
post-op sensitivity to nearly zero.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S.
Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
>>> As part of our training we are sent on outreach placements in the UK
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 04 Jul 2005 15:05 GMT
> Yup,  I found that using Hurriseal after etching and before BA, reduces
> post-op sensitivity to nearly zero.

So, let's see: if you want to Hurriseal using SE bond, you would use it
after the Primer and before the Bond liquid?... Or are you better off
using eithe SE Bond alone?

Thanks
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

Dr. Steve - 05 Jul 2005 02:33 GMT
>> Yup,  I found that using Hurriseal after etching and before BA, reduces
>> post-op sensitivity to nearly zero.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Thanks
>SP

Hi Capt. Stove,

I would use the Hurriseal BEFORE the primer.
..
Stephen
Troy, Michigan, USA

I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
StovePipe - 05 Jul 2005 05:49 GMT
> >> Yup,  I found that using Hurriseal after etching and before BA, reduces
> >> post-op sensitivity to nearly zero.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.

Hi backatcha DrS!

Thanks for your thoughts. I just thought that since you Hurriseeel after
etching in traditional bonding, you would add it after the self etch
primer of SE bond.

Silly me.

Thanks again.
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

StovePipe - 04 Jul 2005 15:05 GMT
> > As part of our training we are sent on outreach placements in the UK
>
> Guys, Minder is one of the poor students exploited by the UK government
> to fill the holes in the crumbling NHS dental service. They now send
> them around to meet demands and call this "part of the training".
> Nothing personal Minder :)

This was all too obvious at the get-go.

> > The tutor told me not to put dycal as it reduces the surface area for
> > bonding for a composite.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Take care,
> George

You haven't used Fuji 9 like I have described yet, though.

SP

Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

Dr. Steve - 29 May 2005 23:18 GMT
>As part of our training we are sent on outreach placements in the UK
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>Suffice to say, he phoned up a day later complaining of pain. I told him to
>take some analgesics and see if the pain subsides. Luckily it did.

I only use CaOH as a temporary over a pin point pulp exposure. I flick
it off just prior to bonding.  Recent studies do not show CaOH to help
in deep restorations.  I use it to kill bacteria on the exposure prior
to bonding.
..
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA

I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
W_B - 31 May 2005 16:43 GMT
>>Suffice to say, he phoned up a day later complaining of pain. I told him to
>>take some analgesics and see if the pain subsides. Luckily it did.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>..
>Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.

This is OK for very small mechanical exposures.
Tri-ineral aggregate is better.

Pathologic exposures require RCT.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr Steve - 31 May 2005 19:55 GMT
I agree.  TMA is better, but this method works well to protect the pulpal
tissues from salivary bacteria until you are ready to bond the restoration
to place.

Like George says, it has to be a mechanical perforation, not a carious one.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S.
Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
>>>Suffice to say, he phoned up a day later complaining of pain. I told him
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 04 Jul 2005 15:05 GMT
> I agree.  TMA is better, but this method works well to protect the pulpal
> tissues from salivary bacteria until you are ready to bond the restoration
> to place.
>
> Like George says, it has to be a mechanical perforation, not a carious one.

Unless you have a Laser that is in working condition... Low power
disinfection with lots of water spray... Too bad mine is not... In fact
the WCLI is having a mini-convention here in November. If Biolase will
not fix and guarantee my M1, I will not spend the money to support them
either.

However: if anyone is thinking of coming up here to go to that
conference, it _is_ in English (AFAIK) and we could meet up.

Cheers
SP
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

StovePipe - 04 Jul 2005 15:05 GMT
> I only use CaOH as a temporary over a pin point pulp exposure. I flick
> it off just prior to bonding.  Recent studies do not show CaOH to help
> in deep restorations.  I use it to kill bacteria on the exposure prior
> to bonding.

In such case, some good ol' Bleach (NaOCl) on a cotton pellet could do
the same thing, No?

Thanks
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

Dr. Steve - 05 Jul 2005 02:38 GMT
>> I only use CaOH as a temporary over a pin point pulp exposure. I flick
>> it off just prior to bonding.  Recent studies do not show CaOH to help
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>In such case, some good ol' Bleach (NaOCl) on a cotton pellet could do
>the same thing, No?

The bleach would help, but I am doing this with indirect restorations.
I leave the CaOH on while we are milling. About 10 minutes.
..
Stephen
Troy, Michigan, USA

I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
StovePipe - 05 Jul 2005 05:49 GMT
> >> I only use CaOH as a temporary over a pin point pulp exposure. I flick
> >> it off just prior to bonding.  Recent studies do not show CaOH to help
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.

OK. Thanks. It only takes 10 minutes to mill the thing? That's amazing.
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

mamounjo3@yahoo.com - 30 May 2005 21:01 GMT
One of the gurus who researches pulp-capping is Charles Cox.  He said
if I recall correctly at a continuing ed speech, that the best
pulp-capping material is just composite resin.  You just need an inert
biocompatible barrier over the exposed pulp, and composite resin is
best.  He said no one really understands why CaOH works as a
pulp-capping agent, and that CaOH is a risky pulp-capping agent to use
because it is brittle and may chip off in little pieces into the pulp,
causing an inflammation reaction in the pulp-capping site.  The
rationale that CaOH raises PH and thus kills micro-organisms is not
evidence-based.  He says studies show that vitrebond or GIC show higher
failure rates as pulp-capping agents compared to composite resin.  Also
that eugenol is toxic to the pulp and should not be used on vital pulps
or pulp capping, so no ZOE.  So the best pulp capping agent is
apparently plain old etch, prime, bond, composite.  Make sure the
composite is cured perfectly over the pulp.  Uncured composite may
contain irritating chemicals.  Put a thin layer over the pulp, light
cure thoroughly, then build up the rest.

Also, be very careful of occlusal prematurities from the composite.
Composite materials are challenging to adjust so that their occlusion
is perfect.  But if the occlusion is off on your composite, the patient
may return with symptoms of sensitivity to hot and cold or sensitivity
to biting that mimic those of irreversible pulptis.  So you might
think, oh, the tooth was pulp-capped, and now the nerve is dead because
the patient has symptoms of irreversible pulptitis.  But no!  The truth
may be that the pulp cap worked, but the occlusion was off, so the
patient has symptoms.  Don't do a pulpotomy on the tooth, just adjust
the occlusion and wait and see.  Use articulating paper prior to
filling to note the occlusal mark pattern on the teeth on the
contra-lateral side, then make sure after you fill the tooth that you
can duplicate that same pattern of occlusal markings.

Realize that pulp-capping is not yet an exact science and that most of
what was learned in dental school about this is conceptually
disorganized garbage, like so much of what is learned in dental school.
So, to summarize, don't use ZOE, don't use eugenol-containing things,
don't use vitrebond, don't use CaOH, don't use dycal (which interferes
with bonding of composite).  Just pulp cap with plain old composite
resin and make sure there are no occlusal prematurities.  And if the
patient comes back with pain, first adjust the occlusion and wait and
see, and only if the pain is persistent should you consider pulpotomy
and root canal.

--Johnny
W_B - 31 May 2005 16:54 GMT
>One of the gurus who researches pulp-capping is Charles Cox.  He said
>if I recall correctly at a continuing ed speech, that the best
>pulp-capping material is just composite resin.

Nope.

Tri-mineral aggregate is the best material.

Do not pulp cap carious exposures, do RCT.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 04 Jul 2005 15:05 GMT
> >One of the gurus who researches pulp-capping is Charles Cox.  He said
> >if I recall correctly at a continuing ed speech, that the best
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Do not pulp cap carious exposures, do RCT.
> --
Can you use this to fill perforations when looking for fourth canals in
molar Endos?

Thanks
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

Dr. Steve - 05 Jul 2005 02:39 GMT
>> >One of the gurus who researches pulp-capping is Charles Cox.  He said
>> >if I recall correctly at a continuing ed speech, that the best
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Thanks
>SP

Yes
..
Stephen
Troy, Michigan, USA

I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
StovePipe - 05 Jul 2005 05:49 GMT
> >> >One of the gurus who researches pulp-capping is Charles Cox.  He said
> >> >if I recall correctly at a continuing ed speech, that the best
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>  Yes
> ..

Good. That's encourging. I have had this happen in the past. BTW, the
last issue of (gasp!) DT magazine has two articles of interest. One is
by Glenn Van As and is about finding the forth canal in molar Endo
cases. His premise is that an operating microscope is mandatory, as is
ultrasonics for digging out those MB2's. The other is by Jeffrey Mader
entitled: "Cerec Dentists are Happy Dentists". He is an ISCD Certified
CEREC trainer.

There is also a blurb about which lasers do which jobs.

OK. I'll shut up now.
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

W_B - 05 Jul 2005 16:42 GMT
> One is
>by Glenn Van As and is about finding the forth canal in molar Endo
>cases. His premise is that an operating microscope is mandatory, as is
>ultrasonics for digging out those MB2's.

The endodontic ultrasonic is a good idea.

An operating microscope is probably mandatory
for an endodontist.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 06 Jul 2005 03:49 GMT
> > One is
> >by Glenn Van As and is about finding the forth canal in molar Endo
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> for an endodontist.
> --
Well, as you said before, I shouldn't be doing the Endodontist's job, I
should be doing the generalist's one.

Thanks
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

W_B - 05 Jul 2005 16:20 GMT
>> >One of the gurus who researches pulp-capping is Charles Cox.  He said
>> >if I recall correctly at a continuing ed speech, that the best
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Thanks
>SP

Yes absolutely.
Went to a seminar last month, the endodontist recommended
'capping' perforations *immediately* with TMA.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 06 Jul 2005 03:49 GMT
> >Can you use this to fill perforations when looking for fourth canals in
> >molar Endos?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> 'capping' perforations *immediately* with TMA.
> --

Good. Thanks
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

StovePipe - 04 Jul 2005 15:05 GMT
> Realize that pulp-capping is not yet an exact science and that most of
> what was learned in dental school about this is conceptually
> disorganized garbage, like so much of what is learned in dental school.
>  So, to summarize, don't use ZOE, don't use eugenol-containing things,

Earlier, this year, I said essentially the same thing, and like you I
got my info from cont-ed cousese in modern filling materials, and I do
what you have said. In fact, our Operative Professor was never a fan of
ZnO-Eugenol preparations, as the eugenol ends up acting as a chronic
irritant over the long term. This induces a gradual mummification of the
pulp. However, Joel asked me for references for this, and I couldn't
find any. So, there again, I'd say: do what works for you. If I had my
Laser working, I'd be zapping  the exposure at very low levels ( so as
to not induce bleeding ) and then SE Bond'ing over it.

> don't use vitrebond,

I would make exception for Fuji 9. It does have sedative properties,
though it isn't understood.

>don't use CaOH, don't use dycal (which interferes
> with bonding of composite).  Just pulp cap with plain old composite
> resin and make sure there are no occlusal prematurities.  And if the
> patient comes back with pain, first adjust the occlusion and wait and
> see, and only if the pain is persistent should you consider pulpotomy
> and root canal.

Excellent advice, from where I sit and as I see it.
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

StovePipe - 04 Jul 2005 15:05 GMT
> As part of our training we are sent on outreach placements in the UK
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> however couldnt care less (not surprising really judging from the state of
> his teeth.)

This is an old thread (to say the least) but since I still don't have an
internet reconnection, I'm looning through the old stuff that I never
had time to get to (seein' as how I'm managing the World single-handedly
these days).

I would have placed Fuji 9 on the whole shebang, and I would have
painted over the F9 with the protective light cured varnish they supply
for when you want F9 to be the final restoration. Then I would have just
let it settle down for at least a couple of months. Then (assuming you
could go back to do another procedure in two or three months) I would
have thinned it down with diamond burs and LOTS of H2O (as in water) and
relied on my memory and my nose to keep me from re-exposing the deep
parts. Then I would have covered it over like you did with etch and
bonding and composite. F9 etches and bonds well.

The advantage of this is that Fuji 9 has sedative properties in it. It
is a compomer that was originally inteded to be an easy to place
restoration for the Third World; BareFoot Doctor type stuff. Since then,
the composite gurus have found this added advantage for it and I have
personally found that doing just what I described above is often the
best solution. Quebec is the Third World in the First World.

In fact, what happens is that they often cannot get back to me in three
months time to have the work finished. So, six months to a year later, I
have to be careful, as I no longer remember much about the prep's
dangerous zones. If you have a camera, you could document the excavated
tooth for later reference.

Hope this helps
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.