Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / May 2005
Wal-Mart plus medical assistance ......
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Joel M. Eichen - 16 May 2005 11:35 GMT At last, the taxpayers are catching on to the Wal-Mart nonsense.
Joel
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Wal-Mart-itis Joel_Eichen Feb 10 2001, 2:07 pm show options
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry From: "Joel_Eichen" <joel_eic...@excite.com> - Find messages by this author Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:05:17 -0500 Local: Sat,Feb 10 2001 2:05 pm Subject: Wal-Mart-itis Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
Peter Meiers <PMei...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:3A858AAD.63EC@t-online.de...
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> Joel_Eichen wrote:
> > > > REPLY:
> > > > Nope. Never had a patient with a missing tooth!
> > > None of your patients ever had a missing tooth? Not even when he left > > > your office ;-)
> > > Peter
> > It was said in jest! There are too many with missing teeth ..... That is why
> > I like fluoride so durned much!
> If your beloved stuff would work there should not be so many people with > missing teeth anymore.
> Peter REPLY:
There wouldn't be ... if we eliminated advertising and laid off all of the cosmetic makeovers. These two combined, have caused the dental profession to ignore dentistry and re-orient themselves towards Dental Cosmetology.
We are all trying to entice a single market into our offices and then do the Dental Cosmetology 'thang. . How can a regular dentist compete when the Wal-Marts come into your area? The regular dentists cannot compete. Hence 90% of the population suffers from Wal-Mart-itis.
Peter Meiers Feb 10 2001, 3:31 pm show options
Posted on Mon, May. 16, 2005
R E L A T E D L I N K S . Bills on health care coverage
Pa. to Wal-Mart: Pay up for health care
Lawmakers introduce a bill to make the retailer cover the costs for more of its employees so the state won't have to foot the bill.
By Amy Worden
Inquirer Harrisburg Bureau
HARRISBURG - Pennsylvania, like most states, has rolled out the red carpet for Wal-Mart, offering up millions in tax incentives and grants over the last decade to reel in the retail giant.
In return, Wal-Mart Stores Inc. has delivered jobs - 40,000 of them - making it the largest private employer in the state. But critics say the jobs have come with a hidden cost: An unusually high percentage of Wal-Mart workers do not have company-paid health insurance, leaving them to rely on taxpayer-subsidized care.
Nobody knows how much such workers cost Pennsylvania taxpayers, although several Democratic lawmakers claim it could be as much as $30 million a year. The lawmakers, joining a well-financed national campaign led by labor unions, have proposed legislation to get an exact answer.
The bill would require Pennsylvania companies with 20 or more employees to issue annual reports stating how many of them are receiving Medical Assistance. The bill is the first step, sponsors say, toward mandating that large companies pay their fair share of health-care costs.
"Wal-Mart is the most notorious abuser of Medical Assistance programs nationwide based on states that have done studies," said Rep. Mike Veon (D., Beaver), a cosponsor of the bill. "We need to find a way to encourage or require employers to provide affordable health-care insurance."
Wal-Mart defends its health-benefits program. The company, based in Bentonville, Ark., says it covers health care for more than half its employees, and opens a route off state Medicaid rolls.
"It's important to note that Wal-Mart is providing access to health care that people didn't receive before they came to us," spokesman Dan Fogleman said.
Other states already have taken the next legislative step. In April, the Maryland General Assembly approved a bill requiring companies employing more than 10,000 people to spend 8 percent of profits made in the state on health care. Only Wal-Mart qualifies under the bill, which the Republican governor has vowed to veto.
In New Jersey, Assemblyman Louis Greenwald (D., Camden) introduced a bill on Thursday that would require employers with more than 10,000 workers to increase the level of their health-care coverage or pay an additional $2.45 per worker hour into the state's Medicaid program. The target: Wal-Mart, which employs 12,000 people in New Jersey.
"Wal-Mart must stop saddling taxpayers with employees' health-care bills, and take the initiative to provide better health coverage on their own," Greenwald said in a statement.
A 2003 Harvard Business School case study found that Wal-Mart paid an average $3,500 a year for employee health care, while the average for the wholesale/retail sector was $4,800, and $5,600 per worker for all U.S. employers.
The Harvard report offered the example of a worker earning $16,800 after three years with Wal-Mart who did not have health insurance. "She felt that she could not afford to enroll in Wal-Mart's medical plan because that would have subtracted as much as $85 from her biweekly paycheck of $550, so she did without and relied on Medicaid for her son," it said.
Studies conducted recently in 13 states show a high ratio of Wal-Mart employees on Medicaid.
In Tennessee, for instance, almost 25 percent of Wal-Mart's 37,000 employees are covered under the state's Medicaid program, according to a January article in the Chattanooga Times Free Press.
Business groups in Pennsylvania and elsewhere oppose the health-care bills, saying they are the first step toward forcing employers to cover such benefits. The proposals include small businesses, which say they can't afford it.
"Instead of looking at how many employees are on Medical Assistance, we should look at reasons why the companies can't afford health insurance," said Kevin Shivers, Pennsylvania state director of the National Federation of Independent Business.
Wal-Mart has faced a slew of lawsuits in recent years over allegations of sex discrimination, illegal hiring of immigrants, and child-labor practices. But it is the health-care issue that has prompted legislation aimed largely at Wal-Mart in as many as 11 states.
A company spokesman said that Wal-Mart did not oppose all disclosure bills - only those that it felt unfairly targeted Wal-Mart.
"They are nothing more than a political attempt by organized labor to make Wal-Mart less competitive in certain states," said Nate Hurst, a Wal-Mart spokesman.
Wal-Mart says 56 percent of its workers are covered through the company's health plan. Premiums start at $40 a month for single workers and $155 for families. The rest are covered by other private and public health plans.
But critics say Wal-Mart's long waiting period to qualify for health coverage (six months for full-time employees and two years for part-timers), coupled with the health program's $1,000 deductible, keeps it out of reach for most working families.
As a result, critics say, families are turning to public aid just as most states and the federal government are seeking to scale back Medicaid.
In Pennsylvania, the legislature must close a $400 million deficit in the budget of the Department of Public Welfare before the fiscal year starts July 1. Hospitals and health-care advocates oppose Gov. Rendell's proposal to reach that goal by limiting benefits and increasing copays for recipients.
Veon, the Beaver County Democrat, would like to see his bill included in the 2005-2006 budget package to be considered by the General Assembly next month. Kate Philips, the governor's spokeswoman, said Rendell supported the spirit of the bill but had not yet taken a position.
"The governor believes that anyone working full time should be able to survive without depending on the state," Philips said.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Contact staff writer Amy Worden at 717-783-2584 or aworden@phillynews.com
email this
bicycle - 16 May 2005 13:03 GMT > At last, the taxpayers are catching > on to the Wal-Mart nonsense. I've been saying this for years and giving examples and yet some said I was wrong or lying.
> Pa. to Wal-Mart: Pay up for health care > [quoted text clipped - 120 lines] > "The governor believes that anyone working full time should be able to > survive without depending on the state," Philips said. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---- > Contact staff writer Amy Worden at 717-783-2584 or aworden@phillynews.com > > email this Joel M. Eichen - 16 May 2005 13:36 GMT Thanks for your help!
Yes, you were right all along ....... that is the problem with the new connectedness. We are not organized like the bad guys are.
joel
> > At last, the taxpayers are catching > > on to the Wal-Mart nonsense. [quoted text clipped - 189 lines] > > > > email this Dr Steve - 16 May 2005 13:47 GMT Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
> Thanks for your help! > [quoted text clipped - 197 lines] >> > >> > email this bicycle - 16 May 2005 15:06 GMT > Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? It doesn't. You are very observant and evidently do not live in a depressed area where Wal-Mart has come in and eliminated any competition along with the jobs they provided.
Those who have lost jobs and do not wish to work at the new Wal-Mart can stay at home and collect even more welfare. It's provided to them by those people who make higher incomes, like doctors. Thanks for your support.
> > Thanks for your help! > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >> I've been saying this for years and giving examples and yet some said I > >> was wrong or lying. Dr Steve - 16 May 2005 16:40 GMT Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. who switched careers three times to get where he is now, and moved to a different country to improve lifestyle. I know all about hard-ship and ambition. No one *HAS* to take any job. They might choose to take it, but they don't have to. Wall-Mart have competed against other corporations in the area and resulted in the loss of easy jobs (or tough ones), but that does not mean the displaced workers can not better themselves. Been there--done that.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > said I >> >> was wrong or lying. W_B - 16 May 2005 20:07 GMT >Been >there--done that. Bought the T-shirt ?
--
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr Steve - 16 May 2005 22:19 GMT Ever see pictures of the little Italian kid wearing shorts with attached suspenders??? I still have them saved away. The same clothes I wore getting off the boat in NYC almost 50 years ago.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
> >>Been [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Dave King - 17 May 2005 13:35 GMT >Ever see pictures of the little Italian kid wearing shorts with attached >suspenders??? I still have them saved away. The same clothes I wore >getting off the boat in NYC almost 50 years ago. Call me old fashion but I certainly admire what you have done.
bicycle - 16 May 2005 20:33 GMT > Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. who > switched careers three times to get where he is now, and moved to a > different country to improve lifestyle. I know all about hard-ship and > ambition. So all the sheeple working at Wal-Mart or sitting on their a.ses collecting welfare are going to jump up and better themselves because you did? A very, very small percentage may, but the majority are going to keep on doing what they are doing and you'll keep on supporting them.
> No one *HAS* to take any job. They might choose to take it, but > they don't have to. Wall-Mart have competed against other corporations in > the area and resulted in the loss of easy jobs (or tough ones), but that > does not mean the displaced workers can not better themselves. Been > there--done that. And? If the Wal-Mart sheeple were smart, they all would have done that years ago and there would be nothing but illegal aliens working there now or many of the stores would have closed long ago due to lack of employees. Nope, someone else will always be willing to settle for second best and taxpayers will keep losing more and more of their earnings to support them.
Don't get me wrong, I agree no one is forced to work there but the problem is many people can't see past tomorrow and will continue to slave away at Wal-Mart and be a burden on the taxpayers because they just don't know any better or could care less.
> -- > ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > said I > >> >> was wrong or lying. Rod Speed - 16 May 2005 21:14 GMT >> Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. > who [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > slave away at Wal-Mart and be a burden on the taxpayers because they > just don't know any better or could care less. Just another inevitable result of the terminal stupidity of the employer paying for health insurance.
>> Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. >> Michigan, USA [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >> > said I >> >> >> was wrong or lying. NOYB - 16 May 2005 22:27 GMT > Just another inevitable result of the terminal stupidity > of the employer paying for health insurance. Bingo.
Dr Steve - 16 May 2005 22:21 GMT >> Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. > who [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > slave away at Wal-Mart and be a burden on the taxpayers because they > just don't know any better or could care less. If they wish to continue, they may, just don't burden me with their complaints.
NOYB - 16 May 2005 22:26 GMT >> Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. > who [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > to keep on doing what they are doing and you'll keep on supporting > them. Without Wal-Mart, many of them would be unemployed. And even if a small business popped up to fill the void of a Wal-Mart, a small business cannot afford to pay for employees' health insurance.
invisigyrl@gmail.com - 22 May 2005 03:53 GMT Yikes. For one thing, things ain't the way they used to be, 50 years ago, or even 25 years ago when I was able to build something like an income and a business.
Second, some people do not have a choice about whether or not to work at WalMart, when they really is no other choice if they want to feed their kids, or in some cases, any medical help at all, and those "choice" jobs at WalMart have hundreds of applicants for 2 or 3 positions. Not to mention all the bullsh*t testing they make an applicant endure.
3rd, I am new to the list, so I just jumped right in. 4th - what has this got to do with sci.med.dentistry?
Just curious. *Bit*
> > Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. > who [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > > > said I > > >> >> was wrong or lying. DrSteve - 22 May 2005 04:12 GMT Yikes yourself.
Too many people take the easy way out. Believe me when I tell you my existence has not been easy to get where I am today. And, anyone with enough drive can do as much and more in today's world. It has to do with the desire to improve one self and the willingness to make initial sacrifices. People clamor for Wall-Mart jobs because they lack the drive to push themselves higher. Or, they are simply not willing to make the sacrifices necessary to achieve changes.
> Yikes. > For one thing, things ain't the way they used to be, 50 years ago, or [quoted text clipped - 101 lines] >> > > said I >> > >> >> was wrong or lying. Rod Speed - 22 May 2005 04:17 GMT > Yikes. > For one thing, things ain't the way they used to be, > 50 years ago, or even 25 years ago when I was able > to build something like an income and a business. Everything changes over time. Plenty of new immigrants manage fine.
> Second, some people do not have a choice about > whether or not to work at WalMart, when they really > is no other choice if they want to feed their kids, There are NO starving kids in north america.
> or in some cases, any medical help at all, Lie, there is always medical treatment available.
> and those "choice" jobs at WalMart have hundreds > of applicants for 2 or 3 positions. Not to mention all > the bullsh*t testing they make an applicant endure. They get to do whatever they like with that many applicants.
> 3rd, I am new to the list, so I just jumped right in. You'll be soorree... |-)
> 4th - what has this got to do with sci.med.dentistry? Just Joel playing silly buggers, again.
> Just curious. You know what that did to the cat dont you ?
> *Bit*
>> > Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. >> who [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] >> > > said I >> > >> >> was wrong or lying. me@privacy.net - 16 May 2005 20:49 GMT >Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. who >switched careers three times to get where he is now, what three different careers did you have?
Steven Fawks - 16 May 2005 22:51 GMT For myself, I don't think I had any 'career' prior to being a dentist.
However, I had done farm labor, worked on a turkey farm, in a galvanizing plant, unloaded rail cars, stock boy, bakery assistant, and in a pre-fab house factory.
Enough experience to make me appreciate dentistry.
Fawks
>>Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. who >>switched careers three times to get where he is now, > > what three different careers did you have? Joel M. Eichen - 17 May 2005 01:22 GMT I walked to and from school ten miles .....
EACH DAY.
Both ways were uphill too.
Joel
> For myself, I don't think I had any 'career' prior to being a dentist. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > what three different careers did you have? me@privacy.net - 17 May 2005 14:34 GMT >However, I had done farm labor, worked on a turkey farm, in a >galvanizing plant, unloaded rail cars, stock boy, bakery assistant, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Fawks so how did you wind up a dentist?
Steven Fawks - 17 May 2005 17:18 GMT I always liked science and thought about majoring in chemistry in college. Coming from a small town, I chickened out. Majored in industrial technology, dropped out, got a little older, saw more of the country (and the people), met a girl who was still in college, and decided I could do what I wanted if I would work at it.
I was right, things fell into place, and the rest is history.
:-) Fawks
(oh yeah, been married to 'that girl' for almost 30 years now, three kids, and 26 years in private practice)
>>However, I had done farm labor, worked on a turkey farm, in a >>galvanizing plant, unloaded rail cars, stock boy, bakery assistant, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >>Fawks
> so how did you wind up a dentist? me@privacy.net - 17 May 2005 17:24 GMT >Coming from a small town, I chickened out. can u explain the above comment?
do u feel a small town attitude works against this
Steven Fawks - 17 May 2005 19:25 GMT Good comment. Probably an oversimplification on my part.
I started out 15 miles north of nowhere and went to a very small country school through 4th grade. My family then moved to the edge of a small town (2,000), and I finished elementary and high school there. The class size averaged around 50 kids. The thought of attending a university and competing with all of the 'city kids' was a little scary. Maybe it wasn't the 'small town' background alone, and some of my family and personal reservations (only one close relative had graduated from college and he had been the validictorian of his senior class).
After one year of college (too much partying), joining the National Guard (basic training & Military Police School), and working for a while longer, I became more confident in what I could accomplish and just went back to college with the idea that 'I can do this'.
There are lots of reasons to lack the guts to 'go for it' right out of high school. Where you go to school, how well you do in that school, your family support, role models, mentors, etc. all have an impact. Being lost in the crowd of a large suburban school could have similar negative effects.
Fawks
>>Coming from a small town, I chickened out. > > can u explain the above comment? > > do u feel a small town attitude works against this me@privacy.net - 18 May 2005 15:52 GMT >There are lots of reasons to lack the guts to 'go for it' right out of >high school. Where you go to school, how well you do in that school, >your family support, role models, mentors, etc. all have an impact. >Being lost in the crowd of a large suburban school could have similar >negative effects. Agree 100 percent Fawks!
I think that's why I didn't go to college straight out of high school.... just too chicken for want of better way to say it. I was very unsure of myself...shy, etc
Now I'm not saying that was a good decision to not go! In fact it was the worst decision of my life. College was the very thing I SHOULD have done at that age..... not only for educational reason.... but social and confidence building reasons as well.
Oh well.... live and learn
sweetchild - 18 May 2005 01:33 GMT Congrats on your success...BUT...not everyone's life does and there are always going to be manual/blue collar labor...everyone deserves decent health care..that is NOT a luxury IMO... Peggy
> I always liked science and thought about majoring in chemistry > in college. Coming from a small town, I chickened out. Majored [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > so how did you wind up a dentist? Steven Fawks - 18 May 2005 15:32 GMT That seems to be a current theme.
Got any good ideas about how to pay for it? If *everyone* gets food, clothing, shelter, and health care whether they work or not, the bills keep getting higher and higher.
You also have to throw in the fact that many of the people who 'deserve' free health care (and other 'necessities') are smoking, drinking, and overweight (plus many of them *chose* to drop out of school).
Does a person have a 'right' to enjoy the benefits of society when they make no effort to make a possitive contribution to that society?
Even though I started life in a drafty farm house with no phone, TV, or running water, I wasn't raised to believe society owed me anything. If I expected to survive, I expected to work.
Living in a 'free' society is a luxury. Luxuries are not truly free. Someone has to pay the bills. Each member of that society should pay a part of that bill. The wealthy should pay a larger part than the poor, but that doesn't mean any normal adult should be able to sponge off of the rest of society without doing something to help out.
There is much more to this issue than "everybody deserves decent health care".
Regards, Fawks
> Congrats on your success...BUT...not everyone's life does and there are > always going to be manual/blue collar labor...everyone deserves decent > health care..that is NOT a luxury IMO... > Peggy amdfroe@aol.com - 18 May 2005 16:37 GMT >Does a person have a 'right' to enjoy the benefits of society when they >make no effort to make a possitive contribution to that society? Sure, their ancestors paid into the system.
sweetchild - 18 May 2005 17:03 GMT Where did this turn into a "free" food , clothing and shelter argument?? This is not a cash assistance/food stamp/medical assistance welfare debate in which I am NOT interested in participating because it does not pertain to this topic.
Not one thread said anything about "free" at all. I am talking "affordable" for people that cannot afford the premiums..they are soo way out of line. Wages have NOT gone up as rapidly as health care costs. Maybe the "top heavy greedies" aka...the pharm companies and the insurance agencies have become greedy mongers as well and are somewhat accountable for this whole thing?? Also I can recall hospitals charging $50 for ONE Tylenol pill back in the 1980s.. ad presently charging at least $400 just to walk into ER ( without doctor exam) which is where sick uninsured end up going bc they have no other choice ( unless there is a doctor charging less $$ for an office visit) One SIMPLE office visit of 5 minutes may cost half of a weeks salary not including prescripts... Also if you are going to pick out obese people and smokers and drinkers ..well then that wouldn't just be limited to the fat and smoking "poor"..........
What about companies who employ obese & smokers and drinkers ...should they cancel all of their policies too because they are attributing to this out of control situation? Do you start with overweight people or obese people ...social drinkers or alcoholics....casual smokers or chain smokers...?? No one is asking here for a freebie-- most working poor work VERY hard for their wages.... and if everyone were completely educated with a doctorates degree who WOULD work at Wally's World et al...think about it-- everyone who works performs SOME benefit to society. A carpenter or carpenters assistant may give many more benefits to our society via improving living conditions this year thru his "menial labor" than some stagnant HIGH position politician who will receive MORE respect while doing almost NOTHING and contributes to the high burden on taxpayers which do not forget includes their 5 figure "lunches" and "trips" for "business/pleasure" yearly expenses all on the taxpayers back.
Everyone deserves decent *affordable* healthcare... Peggy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> That seems to be a current theme. > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > health care..that is NOT a luxury IMO... > > Peggy Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 28 May 2005 19:06 GMT > Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. who > switched careers three times to get where he is now, and moved to a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > does not mean the displaced workers can not better themselves. Been > there--done that. When I was 18, I could get a free higher education at Brooklyn College. Auto manufacturers were hiring, and they paid real benefits. Tuition at dental school was about $5k/year, and loans were available. Most people had jobs with real benefits, and employers cared little for THOSE people, and hired them only for low-paying, exploitive jobs. Of course they didn't have to take any job, and generally were encouraged to "go back where they came from". My grandparents came over, worked their a.ses off, and things got better--for their grandchildren. But 3 of the 4 never did learn to read or write. No, I don't think they were getting into dental school--or the electrician's union. I think it's easy to romanticize Chinese boat people who come here illegally (many dying), working on Canal Street in sweatshops 16 hours a day, and getting their kids into Stuyvesant High School. Sure it's admirable. Is that really what you think this country should be about?
Steve
 Signature Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001
Dr. Steve - 29 May 2005 03:56 GMT >> Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. who >> switched careers three times to get where he is now, and moved to a [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >Steve Hi Steve,
I don't think comparison to illegal immigrants is appropriate. those people have to spend valuable time and energy avoiding deportation. We could certainly argue about making these people LEGAL immigrant. I would mostly support that idea.
Also, I don't feel discussing grandparent's progress in the early 1900's is appropriate. Very different world.
Currently, in the USA, a person can go as for as they can ride their personal ambition and willingness to make sacrifices.
.. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA
I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
Steven Bornfeld - 29 May 2005 17:37 GMT > Hi Steve, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. > Troy, Michigan, USA This is of course the old Horatio Alger myth. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying something along the lines of "If I could do it, anyone can". Allow me to suggest a couple of alternative explanations. Not everyone is as intelligent as you are. Not everyone has the same family support. Not everyone has the same determination. Last and certainly not least, not everyone has the same dumb luck. There was a segment of the PBS news magazine "Now" a few weeks ago, that showed some solid working class folks who went from solvency to poverty in a short time because of illness. It is possible they might have known they wouldn't be sufficiently protected by their medical insurance (yes, they had medical insurance), but given the circumstances I can certainly understand that they might not. There is a strong tendency in this country to say that poor people are poor for reasons they can themselves control, and I'm sure this is frequently true. But not always.
Steve
> I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
 Signature Cut the nonsense to reply
Dr. Steve - 29 May 2005 23:27 GMT >> Hi Steve, >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying something along the >lines of "If I could do it, anyone can". No I am just pointing out that it can be done.
> Allow me to suggest a couple of alternative explanations. Not everyone >is as intelligent as you are. Intelligence is not as important as drive.
> Not everyone has the same family support. What is family support? I paid for all my own school while making house payments and owning, two good cars. (3 by the end of DS), all paid off with my own money.
> Not everyone has the same determination. agreed. That is what is required to improve yourself.
> Last and certainly not >least, not everyone has the same dumb luck. Sorry, luck has nothing to do with it.
> There was a segment of the PBS news magazine "Now" a few weeks ago, >that showed some solid working class folks who went from solvency to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >> I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA
I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
Steven Bornfeld - 30 May 2005 02:51 GMT >>>Hi Steve, >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Intelligence is not as important as drive. That probably depends upon the goal. You know, when I raced bicycles, a young man in my club won all 5 races in our club championship series. I was 33 at the time; he had just turned 13. He has raced in the Tour de France the last several seasons. You may say that all I needed to beat him was more drive. I cannot prove you wrong, but...
>>Not everyone has the same family support. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Sorry, luck has nothing to do with it. I can't prove that either. I know I have been surely blessed in many ways, and know that at many steps along the way, things might have been different, and my life may have turned out very differently. May you continue to enjoy as you have many of the blessings I have also had in my life.
Steve
 Signature Cut the nonsense to reply
Dr. Steve - 30 May 2005 03:11 GMT >>>>Hi Steve, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > You may say that all I needed to beat him was more drive. I cannot >prove you wrong, but... We are not talking about sport events. We are talking about raising a standard of living. No amount of drive will ever Make me a professional basketball player. But, enough drive and sacrifice could make me a team owner.
>>>Not everyone has the same family support. >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Steve .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA
I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
W_B - 31 May 2005 16:46 GMT >> You may say that all I needed to beat him was more drive. I cannot >>prove you wrong, but... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >professional basketball player. But, enough drive and sacrifice could >make me a team owner. The Mancuso Mavericks ? --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr Steve - 31 May 2005 19:51 GMT Anyone able to recall the name of a successful professional baseball player of Sicilian descent? At 5'8" tall, I look over the top of most of the crowd at our Italian club dinner dances.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
> >>> You may say that all I needed to beat him was more drive. I cannot [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Dr Steve - 31 May 2005 19:55 GMT Sorry, that should read "Basketball" not "baseball". Hit the spell checker too quick.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
> Anyone able to recall the name of a successful professional baseball > player of Sicilian descent? At 5'8" tall, I look over the top of most of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> Take out the G'RBAGE >> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 31 May 2005 20:02 GMT > Sorry, that should read "Basketball" not "baseball". Hit the spell checker > too quick. Nate Archibald?
Steve
 Signature Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001
Dr Steve - 31 May 2005 20:15 GMT >> Sorry, that should read "Basketball" not "baseball". Hit the spell >> checker too quick. > > Nate Archibald? Sicilian???
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 31 May 2005 20:03 GMT > Sorry, that should read "Basketball" not "baseball". Hit the spell checker > too quick. My wife doesn't think there have been any real Jewish athletes either.
Steve
 Signature Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001
Dr Steve - 31 May 2005 20:16 GMT Well there have been plenty of Sicilian and Jewish athletes. The problem is very few seven foot tall athletes of either group.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
> >> Sorry, that should read "Basketball" not "baseball". Hit the spell [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Steve W_B - 31 May 2005 20:36 GMT >Well there have been plenty of Sicilian and Jewish athletes. The problem is >very few seven foot tall athletes of either group. You have to be seven feet tall to play bocci ball ?
Who knew. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 31 May 2005 20:01 GMT > Anyone able to recall the name of a successful professional baseball player > of Sicilian descent? At 5'8" tall, I look over the top of most of the crowd > at our Italian club dinner dances. Joe DiMaggio?
Steve
 Signature Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001
clintonz@prodigy.net - 31 May 2005 23:10 GMT > Anyone able to recall the name of a successful professional baseball player > of Sicilian descent? At 5'8" tall, I look over the top of most of the crowd > at our Italian club dinner dances. Wasn't Napolean Sicilian, or was he from Corisca if that is not considered sicilian. I think he was a lot shorter than 5'8''. Of course if you go back 100 years everyone was under 5'8''. In the 1800's if you where over 5'8'' they would'nt feed you.
Over time the average height (probably due to the availability of food) has increased which is why I think you see a new WR in track and field and swimming being set each year (plus better equipment and materials). Number of home runs in baseball (also due to steriods) has been on an upward trend. These trends cannot continue forwever, however.
clintonz@prodigy.net - 31 May 2005 23:46 GMT > > Anyone able to recall the name of a successful professional baseball player > > of Sicilian descent? At 5'8" tall, I look over the top of most of the crowd > > at our Italian club dinner dances. Lasorda? Mike Piazza!
>From CNN.. Piazza's father, Vince, ... Piazza is a first-generation American, Sicilian to the bone, who left high school without a diploma but with outsized drive. His first love was baseball. He grew poor up in Norristown, a working-class town surrounded by leafy suburban Philadelphia, a few years behind his boyhood idol, Lasorda, the kid down the street who was signed by the Dodgers. Lasorda had made it.
W_B - 31 May 2005 16:45 GMT >> Intelligence is not as important as drive. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You may say that all I needed to beat him was more drive. I cannot >prove you wrong, but... That and minus 15 - 18 years. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 31 May 2005 16:49 GMT >>>Intelligence is not as important as drive. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That and minus 15 - 18 years. I'm blaming my parents on this one.
Steve
> -- > > W_B > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
 Signature Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001
W_B - 31 May 2005 17:21 GMT >> That and minus 15 - 18 years. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> W_B Genetics are a b*tch, ain't they ? <hehe> --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
clintonz@prodigy.net - 29 May 2005 20:02 GMT > Currently, in the USA, a person can go as for as they can ride their > personal ambition and willingness to make sacrifices. Speaking of Walmart, I worked as a cashier once, let me just say that working as a cashier in one of these places is not an easy job as people on this list are assuming.
For example, Every go to a grocery store?
See the black window on the side where the manager sits? That's a one-way glass to monitor employees, which by the way they have a two-way microphone in each station. Would you like to be working for a company and have your Boss staring at you and possibly listening to everything you say all day? Every loaf of bread, every can of soup and every other item scanned is monitored by computer so the manager can compute the exact efficency down to the minute every week. Smith, I see your effiency dropped on friday and saturday! Don't scan slow! Scan fast. But look like your happy when the Boss is watching you talk with the customers through the one-way glass. Some companies even teach the employees how to use a "swimming motion" for maxium scanning effeciency and periodically (when needed) show them training videotapes in the back room made by out of work actors on how to be friendly to the customer.
Fundamntally, It's the same working environment as an assembly line at Ford with fewer benifits (did I mention the union dues you pay so they can negotitiate overtime and make sure you don't work on holidays) and in addition to being like an assembly line, solving random math problems every 5 minutes too! Customers can pay at least 3 ways , use coupons, bring in random untagged items, pay with foodstamps and ooops i'm sorry, could you unscan that fourth item and replace it with a six-pack and use THIS coupon here instead which I've decided to pay for by credit instead and I don't have my discount card after-all? What does that come to?
(And What! you want ME to go to aisle six and check the price for this unmarked item? Also,Dont' forget to pack my first bag this way and I like the cold items packed that way and work with a big smile the whole time too).
Did you know that a cashier in some stores (I'm not saying Walmart) can be fired for just ONE complaint and that it is a scientifically proven fact that 1 out of every 100 people is a mega-a.shole?
Did you know some companies try to get their employee's to double as security guards and by the way many stores get robbed at gunpoint once a year, so if you think someone who can be looking down the barrel of a gun, standing next to cash machine any given day who may also have to assist in the apprhension of a shoplifting suspect while also, serving as a maid to constantly keep their station clean all day, doesn't deserve health insurance...
Some companies also employ secret shoppers whose job it is to get some random cashier put on probabtion if they forget to do something such as say, THank the customer by LAST name (which while being on the lookout for possible shoplifiting suspects they are supposed to indiscreetely memorize from the check).
Did I also mention the cashier is on fraud patrol becasue they have to make sure every check is legitamte and that each shopper being certain items really is over 18 (What I am sooo offendend, isn't it OBVIOUS I'm 22) and that no one has a previous history of cashing bad checks, etc, etc.
While everything else was occuring I also hope you don't mess up when that customer with the screaming baby gave two tens and you thought it was 2 20's because when that manager that has been staring at you all day through the one-way glass comes to compare the cash with the computer records of scanned items, you better not be short..
Working as a cashier also requires a tremendous amount of memorization because you have to know the code for everything. What is the code for banas, lemons , grapefuit, watermelon, snow peas, oranges etc etc. What is the code for weight without a container, with a container, with just a plastic bag etc. Yeah, Someone has to Enter in those codes. In fact people require usually at least a month of training before they are even functional at a cashier job.
So, don't underestimate the life of the lowly cashier... glamerous and easy job it is not!
Steven Bornfeld - 29 May 2005 21:13 GMT > Speaking of Walmart, I worked as a cashier once, let me just say that > working as a cashier in one of these places is not an easy job as [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > So, don't underestimate the life of the lowly cashier... > glamerous and easy job it is not! There is a food coop in Park Slope, Brooklyn (I do not belong, but my wife used to). The cashiers of course are volunteers, and most are middle-aged folk, many with advanced degrees. Not only are they slow as molasses, they have a backup "checker" to make sure the pHd who rung up the sale didn't make any mistakes.
Steve
 Signature Cut the nonsense to reply
clintonz@prodigy.net - 30 May 2005 18:55 GMT > There is a food coop in Park Slope, Brooklyn (I do not belong, but my > wife used to). > The cashiers of course are volunteers, and most are middle-aged folk, > many with advanced degrees. Not only are they slow as molasses, I remember Tim Conway doing his slow man routine on the Carol Burnett Show. One time I think he was the cashier in a seafood store. that was pretty funny.
The Real Bev - 30 May 2005 03:24 GMT > When I was 18, I could get a free higher education at Brooklyn College. > Auto manufacturers were hiring, and they paid real benefits. Tuition [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > day, and getting their kids into Stuyvesant High School. Sure it's > admirable. Is that really what you think this country should be about? Sounds like it was what your grandparents thought it was about.
> Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS > http://www.dentaltwins.com Does it make you feel really creepy when you see that movie about the twin gynecologists?
 Signature Cheers, Bev ============================================================= My house isn't a pigsty, it's an Immunity Enhancement Center.
NOYB - 16 May 2005 22:25 GMT >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Those who have lost jobs and do not wish to work at the new Wal-Mart > can stay at home and collect even more welfare. You think that the local mom and pop operations are capable of providing health insurance to their employees? Why should the responsibility of purchasing health insurance fall on the employer?
sweetchild - 18 May 2005 02:04 GMT Remember...Back in the 1960s an average worker could pay for the birth of their child and the hospital stay of their wife which was about a WEEK for a regular birth..... because it was reasonable and able to be paid off! The cost of living was within reason to healthcare costs...who had insurance? Not many...just basic hospitalization...then things got more and more complex and complicated.... Now.. the cost of medicine and seeing a doc without even having ANY tests is out of sight. Cost of living is up...wages are down...Forget health tests.... who can afford to pay for tests with no insurance if you are not rich?? That is the difference-- until something changes this there are going to be a lot of people needlessly dying in the near future...we have the technology to offer but only for SOME to benefit from-- the haves and the have nots... elitist attitude. Teachers get health insurance funded by taxpayers...govt workers receive health bennys funded by taxpayers...maybe we should ALL get this type of insurance... funded by taxpayers..OR...maybe ultra greedy business gobbling enterprises should be somewhat responsible to assist in making up for pitiful wages and hours they offer at the very least by offering or providing affordable health insurance...their profits I am sure will still be obscene .
45 million people in this country presently do NOT have insurance .... The majority of the ones that DO and are NOT self employed have are funded thru their employers....
I am from PA too......
Peggy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > health insurance to their employees? Why should the responsibility of > purchasing health insurance fall on the employer? Tony Bad - 18 May 2005 02:51 GMT The difference between the days of yore when costs were manageable was that there was a measure of personal responsibility associated with medical spending back then.
The advent of insurance allowed people to develop a "whatever my insurance covers" mentality and they were unconcerned about how much was being spent or how costs spiraled out of sight.
It is a buffet mentality. Look at how wastefully and excessively many will fill their plate when cost is no object. The only solution to out of control healthcare costs is to force people to understand and be accountable for the dollars being spent.
T
> Remember...Back in the 1960s an average worker could pay for the birth of > their child and the hospital stay of their wife which was about a WEEK for a [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > health insurance to their employees? Why should the responsibility of > > purchasing health insurance fall on the employer? NOYB - 18 May 2005 03:10 GMT > The difference between the days of yore when costs were manageable was > that [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the > dollars being spent. Health Savings Accounts. But the problem is that you then have a consumer's dollar competing with an insurance company's dollar. The people with insurance will still act under the "buffet mentality" and squeeze out the cost-conscious consumer.
Steven Fawks - 18 May 2005 19:31 GMT Is that ever right!
Used to be that medical insurance was like homeowners insurance. You never used it unless there was a catastrophic event. You were responsible for routine maitenance. Termites, new roof, paint, carpet, appliances, furniture, etc. are all the responsibility of the homeowner (barring those items were damaged by a covered catastrophe). Mumps, measles, sprained ankles, 'regular' broken bones, infections, etc. were paid for out of pocket. People didn't even run to the doctor with every little sneeze or sniffle.
Now everyone wants 'insurance' (or 'somebody') to pay for everything. Eyeglasses, drugs, dental care, physicians exams, babies, you name it. "They" deserve decent health care (and by the way, they shouldn't have to work for it or pay for it with 'their' money).
Move to a socialist country already. Health care may be 'free' there, but it's rationed.
Fawks
> The difference between the days of yore when costs were manageable was that > there was a measure of personal responsibility associated with medical [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > T Rod Speed - 18 May 2005 03:05 GMT > Remember...Back in the 1960s an average worker could pay for the birth > of their child and the hospital stay of their wife which was about a WEEK > for a regular birth..... because it was reasonable and able to be paid off! Still is.
> The cost of living was within reason to healthcare costs... > who had insurance? Not many...just basic hospitalization... And even you should have noticed that hardly anyone has their brats at home. They must be paying for it somehow even now.
> then things got more and more complex and complicated.... > Now.. the cost of medicine and seeing a doc > without even having ANY tests is out of sight. Bullshit.
> Cost of living is up...wages are down... More bullshit. Wages are up too.
> Forget health tests.... who can afford to pay > for tests with no insurance if you are not rich?? Plenty.
> That is the difference-- until something changes this there are > going to be a lot of people needlessly dying in the near future... Bullshit. The modern reality is that very few die due to medical problems anymore, the absolute vast bulk of those who do die die as a result of stuff like car accidents.
> we have the technology to offer but only for SOME to benefit from-- More drivel. The rate of death in childbirth is microscopic now.
So is the death rate due to infectious disease now too.
> the haves and the have nots... elitist attitude. Or utterly mindless silly stuff from you.
> Teachers get health insurance funded by taxpayers... govt > workers receive health bennys funded by taxpayers... maybe > we should ALL get this type of insurance... funded by taxpayers.. Absolutely no sense in using an insurance system to do that.
> OR...maybe ultra greedy business gobbling enterprises > should be somewhat responsible to assist in making up > for pitiful wages and hours they offer at the very least > by offering or providing affordable health insurance... Terminally stupid to have that paid for by the employer.
> their profits I am sure will still be obscene . Unlikely with small business.
> 45 million people in this country > presently do NOT have insurance .... And manage fine anyway. Lowest death rate we have ever seen.
> The majority of the ones that DO and are NOT > self employed have are funded thru their employers.... Terminally stupid system.
>> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? >> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> health insurance to their employees? Why should the responsibility of >> purchasing health insurance fall on the employer? NOYB - 18 May 2005 03:08 GMT > Remember...Back in the 1960s an average worker could pay for the birth of > their child and the hospital stay of their wife which was about a WEEK for [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > I am from PA too...... No argument here. But you can't force a small business to provide health care insurance unless you give small businesses the same access to group rates that large companies, labor unions, and government employees are afforded. Bush has spoken several times about passing legislation to create AHP's (Association Health Plans). They've passed the House and have stalled in the Senate. Why? Because the Senators in the states that already have affordable health insurance know that their constituent's rates will increase to help offset the rates in the states that have much higher rates.
Don Klipstein - 18 May 2005 06:31 GMT >> Remember...Back in the 1960s an average worker could pay for the birth of >> their child and the hospital stay of their wife which was about a WEEK for [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >rates that large companies, labor unions, and government employees are >afforded. Not a problem in the prosperous industrialized nations of this planet, with the single exception being one with 50 "states" (more like provinces) 48 of which are in the middle of North America, and the 49th at the northwest extreme of North America and the 50th being some islands in the north-central or centralish-northeastish-middle of the tropical Pacific!
>Bush has spoken several times about passing legislation to create >AHP's (Association Health Plans). They've passed the House and have stalled >in the Senate. Why? Because the Senators in the states that already have >affordable health insurance know that their constituent's rates will >increase to help offset the rates in the states that have much higher rates. This is a problem specific to the single one of the major prosperous democracies that has not yet nationalized their healthcare many years after every other prosperous industrialized democratic nation has done so!
Dare we get into the fact that Canada's government spending on healthcare as a percentage of GDP is close to that of the USA, *not including* (in USA USA-specific) employer contributions to health insurance of governemnt employees whose jobs are nominally not for healthcare stuff such as Medicare/Medicaid - such as most public school teachers and most police officers? What does USA get for its taxpayers paying a small minority of healthcare expenses of its citizens younger than 65 and shorting its 65-plus "senior citizens" to an extent of creating a market for "medigap" "supplemental insurance", while having all levels and brances of its government spenhding a percentage of GDP within a fraction of a percent of that of Canada *Plus* (*In Addition*) employer contributions to most government employees outside healthcare fields, such as public school teachers, police officers, and politicians on state, county and municipal level as well as anyone elected or not being on some government payroll in the "Justice System" as a judge, court transcriber, courthoue building manager, jailhouse building manager or maintenance worker, "correctional officer" or "prison guard", or all expenses of prison builders, as well as "Public Defenders" constitutionally mandated to defend impoverished criminal defendants!
- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
wrongaddress@att.net - 22 May 2005 05:44 GMT > Those who have lost jobs and do not wish to work at the new Wal-Mart > can stay at home and collect even more welfare. It's provided to them
> by those people who make higher incomes, like doctors Where is this community where I can stay home and collect free welfare? I'm interested in moving in. Do they accept single white males with no kids, or do I need a few anchor babies born to some illegal alien to qualify?
How do I get the free money? I need it as soon as possible. Please reply in English.
Thanks,
-Bill
bicycle - 22 May 2005 10:17 GMT > > Those who have lost jobs and do not wish to work at the new Wal-Mart > > can stay at home and collect even more welfare. It's provided to them [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > How do I get the free money? I need it as soon as possible. > Please reply in English. Ask someone who collects welfare, in your case that would be your mother.
wrongaddress@att.net - 23 May 2005 00:31 GMT > Ask someone who collects welfare, in your case that would > be your mother. Sorry, I don't have a mother, she died of cancer when I was 12, and my father died from drinking a couple years later.
The only welfare they get is the grass cut and watered, so the lawn looks nice and green.
-Bill
bicycle - 23 May 2005 02:19 GMT > > Ask someone who collects welfare, in your case that would > > be your mother. > > Sorry, I don't have a mother, she died of cancer when I was 12, and my > father died from drinking a couple years later. Troll-O-Meter: 1.3
> The only welfare they get is the grass cut and watered, so the > lawn looks nice and green. Lame-O-Meter: 9.9
I will give your circuit site a perfect 10 though. Lot's of good stuff there.
Joel M. Eichen - 16 May 2005 19:21 GMT > Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Michigan, USA > .................................................... No one is forced to work there, but medical care is kind of a God given right. In the case of the Wal-Mart/Medical Assistance folks, society, or more precisely the taxpayers of our commonwealth are making up the cost of the medical care.
ARITHMETIC
Wal-Mart low prices + increased taxes to pay for medical care = old mom and pop store prices!
Joel
> This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. > Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on [quoted text clipped - 203 lines] > >> > > >> > email this Dave King - 16 May 2005 21:11 GMT >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >No one is forced to work there, but medical care is >kind of a God given right. Since when is benefitting from anothers hard work and dedication a God given right?
Maybe you should be talking to Sallie Mae on my behalf?
> In the case of the Wal-Mart/Medical >Assistance folks, society, or more precisely the taxpayers of [quoted text clipped - 216 lines] >> >> > >> >> > email this Joel M. Eichen - 16 May 2005 21:19 GMT > >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Maybe you should be talking to Sallie Mae on my behalf? REPLY
Hi Dave,
Say there's a motorcycle accident and the guy smashes his face. Insurance or not, they bring him to your hospital.
You repair the damage.
If he has no resources, then the taypayer pays the bill, right?
Some say Walmart with billions in profits should contribute towards those bills.
This is currently being debated in Pennsylvania.
Joel
> > In the case of the Wal-Mart/Medical > >Assistance folks, society, or more precisely the taxpayers of [quoted text clipped - 216 lines] > >> >> > > >> >> > email this NOYB - 16 May 2005 22:31 GMT >> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? >> >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > This is currently being debated in Pennsylvania. Some say that the motorcycle driver should have spent his motorcycle premium on health insurance instead of a death-trap on two wheels. And those "some" would be right.
Joel M. Eichen - 17 May 2005 01:23 GMT Make 'em ride Segways instead.
Joel
> >> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > on health insurance instead of a death-trap on two wheels. And those "some" > would be right. NOYB - 17 May 2005 03:06 GMT > Make 'em ride Segways instead. Even the President, with all of his security detail, wasn't safe on a Segway.
sweetchild - 18 May 2005 01:37 GMT Well.... some would say that the cost of motorcycle insurance ( bet $100-200 a year) is wayy cheaper than HEALTH insurance by 50x ( 5k-10k or more a year) and much cheaper than car insurance so maybe that is the only reasonable alternative for them to GET to work ... Everyone DESERVES acceptable health insurance at a reasonable cost... not just "some" people who inhabit this country-- ALL.... Peggy
> >> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > on health insurance instead of a death-trap on two wheels. And those "some" > would be right. Rod Speed - 18 May 2005 03:06 GMT > Well.... > some would say that the cost of motorcycle insurance ( bet $100-200 a year) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Everyone DESERVES acceptable health insurance at a reasonable cost... not > just "some" people who inhabit this country-- ALL.... Taint gunna happen while ever the insurance system is used.
Every other modern first world country has noticed.
You fools havent ? Your problem.
>> >> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > "some" >> would be right. Rod Speed - 16 May 2005 23:09 GMT >> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? >> >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >> Maybe you should be talking to Sallie Mae on my behalf?
> Say there's a motorcycle accident and the guy smashes > his face. Insurance or not, they bring him to your hospital.
> You repair the damage.
> If he has no resources, then the taypayer pays the bill, right? Wrong. The insurance does.
> Some say Walmart with billions in profits > should contribute towards those bills. Only the fools.
> This is currently being debated in Pennsylvania. Plenty of fools there.
>> > In the case of the Wal-Mart/Medical >> >Assistance folks, society, or more precisely the taxpayers of [quoted text clipped - 255 lines] >> >> >> > >> >> >> > email this bicycle - 17 May 2005 00:40 GMT Are you from Pennsylavania?
> > >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? > > >> [quoted text clipped - 289 lines] > > >> >> > > > >> >> > email this Joel M. Eichen - 17 May 2005 02:12 GMT > Are you from Pennsylavania? Yup.
Joel
Dave King - 17 May 2005 13:29 GMT >> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? >> >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >If he has no resources, then the taypayer pays the bill, right? Not my fees. If I am covering trauma that day, I am responsible for his care. The hospital fees would be somewhat covered by the taxpayers but I would not only get fat goose-eggs, but no recup on the lost time in my office or with my family. Some trauma cases that I have done can be in the range of 20K-30K for full reconstruction and laceration repair.
They only time I MAY get compensated when the patient has no insurance is with violent crime. If the patient files a claim and it is approved, I will get paid but unfortunately by the taxpayers.
>Some say Walmart with billions in profits >should contribute towards those bills. I never would say that.
Material want versus immaterial need is a troubling decision for some folks. Choices sure can be evil when you chose the wrong way.
>This is currently being debated in Pennsylvania. Along with gun control. If the nutty anti-gun types get their way in Philly, only criminals will have guns.
>Joel > [quoted text clipped - 257 lines] >> >> >> > >> >> >> > email this W_B - 31 May 2005 15:36 GMT >>This is currently being debated in Pennsylvania. > >Along with gun control. If the nutty anti-gun types get their way in >Philly, only criminals will have guns. Did you hear what happened in Texas after a concealed carry permit bill passed ?
Crime went down. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
W_B - 31 May 2005 15:33 GMT >> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? >> >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >If he has no resources, then the taypayer pays the bill, right? Nope, wrong again. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Rod Speed - 16 May 2005 21:18 GMT >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
> No one is forced to work there, but medical care is kind of a God given right. There is no 'god' and there certainly aint no 'God given right' to have the employer pay for that.
> In the case of the Wal-Mart/Medical Assistance > folks, society, or more precisely the taxpayers of our > commonwealth are making up the cost of the medical care. The inevitable result of the terminal stupidity of the employer paying for medical care coverage.
> ARITHMETIC
> Wal-Mart low prices + increased taxes to pay > for medical care = old mom and pop store prices! Mindless pig ignorant drivel.
And no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy anything at Walmart. If someone is, call the cops.
>> This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes > only. [quoted text clipped - 205 lines] >> >> > >> >> > email this Joel M. Eichen - 17 May 2005 02:12 GMT .
> And no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you > to buy anything at Walmart. If someone is, call the cops. I do all the time cus they be robbin' us.
Rod Speed - 17 May 2005 02:20 GMT >> And no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you >> to buy anything at Walmart. If someone is, call the cops.
> I do all the time cus they be robbin' us. Caught lying again.
Rod Slow - 28 May 2005 16:18 GMT >>>Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? > >>No one is forced to work there, but medical care is kind of a God given right. > > There is no 'god' and there certainly aint no > 'God given right' to have the employer pay for that. But a welfare leech like you has a right to the government paying for it
NOYB - 16 May 2005 22:29 GMT >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Wal-Mart low prices + increased taxes to pay > for medical care = old mom and pop store prices! =INFLATION.
You can thank Wal-Mart for keeping inflation at bay.
What good is it if 20 local mom and pops sprout up selling their wares at prices that their own employees cannot afford?
Dave King - 17 May 2005 13:32 GMT >>> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >What good is it if 20 local mom and pops sprout up selling their wares at >prices that their own employees cannot afford? Economies of size, something bureaucracies never meet.
Jen Saylor - 19 May 2005 04:15 GMT > > Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Wal-Mart low prices + increased taxes to pay > for medical care = old mom and pop store prices! Benefits are something that is between an employer and an employee. Wal-Mart, nor any company, has any obligation to provide healthcare benefits -although if benefits are available to an employee they must be made available to all similar employees.
If Pennsylvania was actually concerned with Health Care costs, it would stop doing things like the recent legislation to allow motorcyclists to ride without helmets in that state. Trauma centers and ERs across the state are being inundated with severe head trauma injuries from motorcycle accidents, and taxpayers are footing much of the bill. Funny how seatbelts are required but helmets on the highway in the open air are not.
This is about an opportunity to bash an employer, and nothing more. No wonder why more employers don't want to come into Pennsylvania and why it has lost so many jobs over the last decades.
Don Klipstein - 19 May 2005 04:59 GMT >> > Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? >> > -- [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >why more employers don't want to come into Pennsylvania and why it has lost so >many jobs over the last decades. I agree on this, but most of what Pennsylvania does bad is otherwise - as in completely lacking a lobbyist disclosure law and as a result probably pays higher prices as a result of making the taxpayers foot the bill for "Pay-To-Play".
But back to healthcare: How bad are these problems in prosperous democracies other than the USA, which all have "Socialized Medicine"? (I suspect such other countries are a little less libertarian in terms of allowing people to ride motorcycles without helmets, but I do not expect this to be the main reason for the USA to specialize in having a significant percentage of its population screwed for adequate healthcare.)
- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
James Goforth - 21 May 2005 00:33 GMT EXCELENT expose' on Whale-Mart...
http://www.hightowerlowdown.org/articles%5Capr02_v4/apr02_v4_n4_lead1.cfm
Best one I've seen yet.
W_B - 31 May 2005 15:31 GMT >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? >> >> -- >> ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- >> Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S.
>No one is forced to work there, but medical care is >kind of a God given right. No, it's not. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
NOYB - 16 May 2005 22:23 GMT > Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? And why are businesses responsible for an employee's health insurance?
Joel M. Eichen - 17 May 2005 01:25 GMT > > Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? > > And why are businesses responsible for an employee's health insurance? Why are taxpayers?
NOYB - 17 May 2005 03:06 GMT >> > Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? >> >> And why are businesses responsible for an employee's health insurance? > > Why are taxpayers? Because of the Democrats.
W_B - 31 May 2005 16:05 GMT >Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart? I must have missed that class... 8^]] --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
NOYB - 16 May 2005 22:22 GMT > At last, the taxpayers are catching > on to the Wal-Mart nonsense. Horse manure. Why should a corporation be *forced* to provide health insurance to its employees?
I'd like to see the health insurance industry regulated like the utilities industry.
The McCarron-Ferguson Act needs to be repealed so that insurance companies can be held subject to Federal regulation. Currently, they're exempt from Federal regulations (anti-trust, etc), and cherry-pick the most lucrative states in which to do business.
Employers should be responsible for providing a fair wage...and insurance companies should be responsible for charging a reasonably affordable premium to its customers.
Your idea that Wal-Mart ought to be responsible for employees' health insurance is a terrible idea. It's the very same thing that bankrupted Delta Airlines, and is threatening to bankrupt GM.
Rod Speed - 16 May 2005 23:23 GMT >> At last, the taxpayers are catching on to the Wal-Mart nonsense.
> Horse manure. Why should a corporation be *forced* to provide health > insurance to its employees?
> I'd like to see the health insurance industry regulated like the utilities > industry. Wouldnt work.
> The McCarron-Ferguson Act needs to be repealed so that insurance companies can > be held subject to Federal regulation. Currently, they're exempt from Federal > regulations (anti-trust, etc), and cherry-pick the most lucrative states in > which to do business. And if they get no choice on which states they can do business in and the premiums they can charge, they wont bother offering insurance.
> Employers should be responsible for providing a fair wage... They are.
> and insurance companies should be responsible for charging a reasonably > affordable premium to its customers. Cant fly if that premium doesnt result in a profit.
> Your idea that Wal-Mart ought to be responsible for employees' health > insurance is a terrible idea. True.
> It's the very same thing that bankrupted Delta Airlines, and is threatening to > bankrupt GM. Well, there was more than just health insurance that produced that, but that certainly is part of the problem.
NOYB - 17 May 2005 00:15 GMT >>> At last, the taxpayers are catching on to the Wal-Mart nonsense. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > And if they get no choice on which states they can do business in and > the premiums they can charge, they wont bother offering insurance. Not likely. How could an insurance company quit offering insurance? I assume you meant that they'd quit offering *health* insurance...but the Feds can enact legislation that would prevent that (ie--requiring them to write a certain amount health insurance for every dollar of "other" insurance).
>> Employers should be responsible for providing a fair wage... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Cant fly if that premium doesnt result in a profit. The electrical utilities make a profit, yet their industry is regulated. Perhaps they couldn't make the obscene profits that they currently make (insurance companies always have the biggest, fanciest buildings in every big city), but they'd still make a decent profit.
>> Your idea that Wal-Mart ought to be responsible for employees' health >> insurance is a terrible idea. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Well, there was more than just health insurance that > produced that, but that certainly is part of the problem. It's the biggest part of the problem for GM right now.
Rod Speed - 17 May 2005 00:56 GMT >> NOYB <noyb@noyb.com> wrote
>>>> At last, the taxpayers are catching on to the Wal-Mart nonsense.
>>> Horse manure. Why should a corporation be *forced* to provide health >>> insurance to its employees?
>>> I'd like to see the health insurance industry regulated like the utilities >>> industry.
>> Wouldnt work.
>>> The McCarron-Ferguson Act needs to be repealed so that insurance companies >>> can be held subject to Federal regulation. Currently, they're exempt from >>> Federal regulations (anti-trust, etc), and cherry-pick the most lucrative >>> states in which to do business.
>> And if they get no choice on which states they can do business in and >> the premiums they can charge, they wont bother offering insurance.
> Not likely. How could an insurance company quit offering insurance? The same way it happens right thruout modern business, if a particular area doesnt produce a decent return, they get involved in something else that does instead.
> I assume you meant that they'd quit offering *health* insurance... No, I meant whatever insurance that isnt profitable after that change to federal regulation.
> but the Feds can enact legislation that would prevent that (ie--requiring them > to write a certain amount health insurance for every dollar of "other" > insurance). Completely impractical. What are they doing to do if they dont achieve the mandated ratio ? Refuse to write the insurance that flouts the ratio ?
The ratio would be impossible to set anyway.
>>> Employers should be responsible for providing a fair wage...
>> They are.
>>> and insurance companies should be responsible for charging a reasonably >>> affordable premium to its customers.
>> Cant fly if that premium doesnt result in a profit.
> The electrical utilities make a profit, yet their industry is regulated. Different industry entirely. Insurance has no massive infrastructure and distribution cost involved. Any insurance company that cant see a profit with the regulated premium set, can just stop writing that sort of policy that will see it loose money on it.
> Perhaps they couldn't make the obscene profits that they currently make > (insurance companies always have the biggest, fanciest buildings in every big > city), but they'd still make a decent profit. Easy to claim. In reality they would just stop writing policys when they decide that the profit isnt adequate.
A large part of any insurance company is making decent money on the premiums they hold until they have to pay out.
>>> Your idea that Wal-Mart ought to be responsible for employees' health >>> insurance is a terrible idea.
>> True.
>>> It's the very same thing that bankrupted Delta Airlines, and is threatening >>> to bankrupt GM.
>> Well, there was more than just health insurance that >> produced that, but that certainly is part of the problem.
> It's the biggest part of the problem for GM right now. Nope, the pension overhang is. Thats always going to cost more than the health insurance costs.
NOYB - 17 May 2005 01:00 GMT >>> NOYB <noyb@noyb.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > Nope, the pension overhang is. Thats always > going to cost more than the health insurance costs. Pensions and health insurance costs for retirees go hand in hand.
Rod Speed - 17 May 2005 02:17 GMT >> NOYB <NOYB@NOYB.COM> wrote >>>> NOYB <noyb@noyb.com> wrote
>>>>>> At last, the taxpayers are catching on to the Wal-Mart nonsense.
>>>>> Horse manure. Why should a corporation be *forced* to provide health >>>>> insurance to its employees?
>>>>> I'd like to see the health insurance industry regulated like the utilities >>>>> industry.
>>>> Wouldnt work.
>>>>> The McCarron-Ferguson Act needs to be repealed so that insurance companies >>>>> can be held subject to Federal regulation. Currently, they're exempt from >>>>> Federal regulations (anti-trust, etc), and cherry-pick the most lucrative >>>>> states in which to do business.
>>>> And if they get no choice on which states they can do business in and >>>> the premiums they can charge, they wont bother offering insurance.
>>> Not likely. How could an insurance company quit offering insurance?
>> The same way it happens right thruout modern business, >> if a particular area doesnt produce a decent return, they >> get involved in something else that does instead.
>>> I assume you meant that they'd quit offering *health* insurance...
>> No, I meant whatever insurance that isnt >> profitable after that change to federal regulation.
>>> but the Feds can enact legislation that would prevent that (ie--requiring >>> them to write a certain amount health insurance for every dollar of "other" >>> insurance).
>> Completely impractical. What are they doing to do >> if they dont achieve the mandated ratio ? Refuse >> to write the insurance that flouts the ratio ?
>> The ratio would be impossible to set anyway.
>>>>> Employers should be responsible for providing a fair wage...
>>>> They are.
>>>>> and insurance companies should be responsible for charging a reasonably >>>>> affordable premium to its customers.
>>>> Cant fly if that premium doesnt result in a profit.
>>> The electrical utilities make a profit, yet their industry is regulated.
>> Different industry entirely. Insurance has no massive infrastructure >> and distribution cost involved. Any insurance company that cant see >> a profit with the regulated premium set, can just stop writing that >> sort of policy that will see it loose money on it.
>>> Perhaps they couldn't make the obscene profits that they currently make >>> (insurance companies always have the biggest, fanciest buildings in every >>> big city), but they'd still make a decent profit.
>> Easy to claim. In reality they would just stop writing >> policys when they decide that the profit isnt adequate.
>> A large part of any insurance company is making decent >> money on the premiums they hold until they have to pay out.
>>>>> Your idea that Wal-Mart ought to be responsible for employees' health >>>>> insurance is a terrible idea.
>>>> True.
>>>>> It's the very same thing that bankrupted Delta Airlines, and is >>>>> threatening to bankrupt GM.
>>>> Well, there was more than just health insurance that >>>> produced that, but that certainly is part of the problem.
>>> It's the biggest part of the problem for GM right now.
>> Nope, the pension overhang is. Thats always >> going to cost more than the health insurance costs.
> Pensions and health insurance costs for retirees go hand in hand. Irrelevant to whether the employer paying the health insurance costs is only a small part of what has sunk GM and Delta.
Joel M. Eichen - 17 May 2005 01:26 GMT > > At last, the taxpayers are catching > > on to the Wal-Mart nonsense. > > Horse manure. Why should a corporation be *forced* to provide health > insurance to its employees? REPLY
That's what legislators are for .....
Joel
> I'd like to see the health insurance industry regulated like the utilities > industry. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > insurance is a terrible idea. It's the very same thing that bankrupted > Delta Airlines, and is threatening to bankrupt GM. Rod Speed - 17 May 2005 02:18 GMT >> Joel M. Eichen <joeleichen@yahoo.com> wrote
>>> At last, the taxpayers are catching >>> on to the Wal-Mart nonsense.
>> Horse manure. Why should a corporation be >> *forced* to provide health insurance to its employees?
> That's what legislators are for ..... Only in the stupidest system ever invented.
>> I'd like to see the health insurance >> industry regulated like the utilities industry.
>> The McCarron-Ferguson Act needs to be repealed so that insurance companies >> can be held subject to Federal regulation. Currently, they're exempt from [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> insurance is a terrible idea. It's the very same thing that bankrupted >> Delta Airlines, and is threatening to bankrupt GM. rick++ - 17 May 2005 19:30 GMT Half of the people at Walmarts buy insurance. What about your maid, nanny, gardener, and handyman?
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