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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / May 2005

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Wal-Mart plus medical assistance ......

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Joel M. Eichen - 16 May 2005 11:35 GMT
At last, the taxpayers are catching
on to the Wal-Mart nonsense.

Joel

**

Wal-Mart-itis
Joel_Eichen   Feb 10 2001, 2:07 pm     show options

Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
From: "Joel_Eichen" <joel_eic...@excite.com> - Find messages by this author
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:05:17 -0500
Local: Sat,Feb 10 2001 2:05 pm
Subject: Wal-Mart-itis
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Peter Meiers <PMei...@t-online.de> wrote in message

news:3A858AAD.63EC@t-online.de...

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

> Joel_Eichen wrote:

> > > > REPLY:

> > > > Nope. Never had a patient with a missing tooth!

> > > None of your patients ever had a missing tooth? Not even when he left
> > > your office ;-)

> > > Peter

> > It was said in jest! There are too many with missing teeth ..... That is
why
> > I like fluoride so durned much!

> If your beloved stuff would work there should not be so many people with
> missing teeth anymore.

> Peter

REPLY:

There wouldn't be ... if we eliminated advertising and laid off all of the
cosmetic makeovers. These two combined, have caused the dental profession to
ignore dentistry and re-orient themselves towards Dental Cosmetology.

We are all trying to entice a single market into our offices and then do the
Dental Cosmetology 'thang. . How can a regular dentist compete when the
Wal-Marts come into your area? The regular dentists cannot compete. Hence
90% of the population suffers from Wal-Mart-itis.

  Peter Meiers   Feb 10 2001, 3:31 pm     show options

Posted on Mon, May. 16, 2005

R E L A T E D   L I N K S
.  Bills on health care coverage

Pa. to Wal-Mart: Pay up for health care

Lawmakers introduce a bill to make the
retailer cover the costs for more of its employees
so the state won't have to foot the bill.

By Amy Worden

Inquirer Harrisburg Bureau

HARRISBURG - Pennsylvania, like most states, has rolled out the red carpet
for Wal-Mart, offering up millions in tax incentives and grants over the
last decade to reel in the retail giant.

In return, Wal-Mart Stores Inc. has delivered jobs - 40,000 of them - making
it the largest private employer in the state. But critics say the jobs have
come with a hidden cost: An unusually high percentage of Wal-Mart workers do
not have company-paid health insurance, leaving them to rely on
taxpayer-subsidized care.

Nobody knows how much such workers cost Pennsylvania taxpayers, although
several Democratic lawmakers claim it could be as much as $30 million a
year. The lawmakers, joining a well-financed national campaign led by labor
unions, have proposed legislation to get an exact answer.

The bill would require Pennsylvania companies with 20 or more employees to
issue annual reports stating how many of them are receiving Medical
Assistance. The bill is the first step, sponsors say, toward mandating that
large companies pay their fair share of health-care costs.

"Wal-Mart is the most notorious abuser of Medical Assistance programs
nationwide based on states that have done studies," said Rep. Mike Veon (D.,
Beaver), a cosponsor of the bill. "We need to find a way to encourage or
require employers to provide affordable health-care insurance."

Wal-Mart defends its health-benefits program. The company, based in
Bentonville, Ark., says it covers health care for more than half its
employees, and opens a route off state Medicaid rolls.

"It's important to note that Wal-Mart is providing access to health care
that people didn't receive before they came to us," spokesman Dan Fogleman
said.

Other states already have taken the next legislative step. In April, the
Maryland General Assembly approved a bill requiring companies employing more
than 10,000 people to spend 8 percent of profits made in the state on health
care. Only Wal-Mart qualifies under the bill, which the Republican governor
has vowed to veto.

In New Jersey, Assemblyman Louis Greenwald (D., Camden) introduced a bill on
Thursday that would require employers with more than 10,000 workers to
increase the level of their health-care coverage or pay an additional $2.45
per worker hour into the state's Medicaid program. The target: Wal-Mart,
which employs 12,000 people in New Jersey.

"Wal-Mart must stop saddling taxpayers with employees' health-care bills,
and take the initiative to provide better health coverage on their own,"
Greenwald said in a statement.

A 2003 Harvard Business School case study found that Wal-Mart paid an
average $3,500 a year for employee health care, while the average for the
wholesale/retail sector was $4,800, and $5,600 per worker for all U.S.
employers.

The Harvard report offered the example of a worker earning $16,800 after
three years with Wal-Mart who did not have health insurance. "She felt that
she could not afford to enroll in Wal-Mart's medical plan because that would
have subtracted as much as $85 from her biweekly paycheck of $550, so she
did without and relied on Medicaid for her son," it said.

Studies conducted recently in 13 states show a high ratio of Wal-Mart
employees on Medicaid.

In Tennessee, for instance, almost 25 percent of Wal-Mart's 37,000 employees
are covered under the state's Medicaid program, according to a January
article in the Chattanooga Times Free Press.

Business groups in Pennsylvania and elsewhere oppose the health-care bills,
saying they are the first step toward forcing employers to cover such
benefits. The proposals include small businesses, which say they can't
afford it.

"Instead of looking at how many employees are on Medical Assistance, we
should look at reasons why the companies can't afford health insurance,"
said Kevin Shivers, Pennsylvania state director of the National Federation
of Independent Business.

Wal-Mart has faced a slew of lawsuits in recent years over allegations of
sex discrimination, illegal hiring of immigrants, and child-labor practices.
But it is the health-care issue that has prompted legislation aimed largely
at Wal-Mart in as many as 11 states.

A company spokesman said that Wal-Mart did not oppose all disclosure bills -
only those that it felt unfairly targeted Wal-Mart.

"They are nothing more than a political attempt by organized labor to make
Wal-Mart less competitive in certain states," said Nate Hurst, a Wal-Mart
spokesman.

Wal-Mart says 56 percent of its workers are covered through the company's
health plan. Premiums start at $40 a month for single workers and $155 for
families. The rest are covered by other private and public health plans.

But critics say Wal-Mart's long waiting period to qualify for health
coverage (six months for full-time employees and two years for part-timers),
coupled with the health program's $1,000 deductible, keeps it out of reach
for most working families.

As a result, critics say, families are turning to public aid just as most
states and the federal government are seeking to scale back Medicaid.

In Pennsylvania, the legislature must close a $400 million deficit in the
budget of the Department of Public Welfare before the fiscal year starts
July 1. Hospitals and health-care advocates oppose Gov. Rendell's proposal
to reach that goal by limiting benefits and increasing copays for
recipients.

Veon, the Beaver County Democrat, would like to see his bill included in the
2005-2006 budget package to be considered by the General Assembly next
month. Kate Philips, the governor's spokeswoman, said Rendell supported the
spirit of the bill but had not yet taken a position.

"The governor believes that anyone working full time should be able to
survive without depending on the state," Philips said.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Contact staff writer Amy Worden at 717-783-2584 or aworden@phillynews.com

     email this
bicycle - 16 May 2005 13:03 GMT
> At last, the taxpayers are catching
>  on to the Wal-Mart nonsense.

I've been saying this for years and giving examples and yet some said I
was wrong or lying.

> Pa. to Wal-Mart: Pay up for health care
>
[quoted text clipped - 120 lines]
> "The governor believes that anyone working full time should be able to
> survive without depending on the state," Philips said.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> Contact staff writer Amy Worden at 717-783-2584 or aworden@phillynews.com
>
>       email this
Joel M. Eichen - 16 May 2005 13:36 GMT
Thanks for your help!

Yes, you were right all along ....... that is the problem
with the new connectedness. We are not organized like the bad guys are.

joel

> > At last, the taxpayers are catching
> >  on to the Wal-Mart nonsense.
[quoted text clipped - 189 lines]
> >
> >       email this
Dr Steve - 16 May 2005 13:47 GMT
Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S.
Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

> Thanks for your help!
>
[quoted text clipped - 197 lines]
>> >
>> >       email this
bicycle - 16 May 2005 15:06 GMT
> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?

It doesn't. You are very observant and evidently do not live in a
depressed area
where Wal-Mart has come in and eliminated any competition along with
the jobs they provided.

Those who have lost jobs and do not wish to work at the new Wal-Mart
can stay at home and collect even more welfare. It's provided to them
by those people who make higher incomes, like doctors. Thanks for your
support.

> > Thanks for your help!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> >> I've been saying this for years and giving examples and yet some said I
> >> was wrong or lying.
Dr Steve - 16 May 2005 16:40 GMT
Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. who
switched careers three times to get where he is now, and moved to a
different country to improve lifestyle.  I know all about hard-ship and
ambition.  No one *HAS* to take any job.  They might choose to take it, but
they don't have to.  Wall-Mart have competed against other corporations in
the area and resulted in the loss of easy jobs (or tough ones), but that
does not mean the displaced workers can not better themselves.  Been
there--done that.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S.
Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
>> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> said I
>> >> was wrong or lying.
W_B - 16 May 2005 20:07 GMT
>Been
>there--done that.

Bought the T-shirt ?

--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr Steve - 16 May 2005 22:19 GMT
Ever see pictures of the little Italian kid wearing shorts with attached
suspenders???  I still have them saved away.  The same clothes I wore
getting off the boat in NYC almost 50 years ago.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S.
Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
>>Been
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dave King - 17 May 2005 13:35 GMT
>Ever see pictures of the little Italian kid wearing shorts with attached
>suspenders???  I still have them saved away.  The same clothes I wore
>getting off the boat in NYC almost 50 years ago.

Call me old fashion but I certainly admire what you have done.
bicycle - 16 May 2005 20:33 GMT
> Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. who
> switched careers three times to get where he is now, and moved to a
> different country to improve lifestyle.  I know all about hard-ship and
> ambition.

So all the sheeple working at Wal-Mart or sitting on their a.ses
collecting welfare are going to jump up and better themselves because
you did? A very, very small percentage may, but the majority are going
to keep on doing what they are doing and you'll keep on supporting
them.

> No one *HAS* to take any job.  They might choose to take it, but
> they don't have to.  Wall-Mart have competed against other corporations in
> the area and resulted in the loss of easy jobs (or tough ones), but that
> does not mean the displaced workers can not better themselves.  Been
> there--done that.

And? If the Wal-Mart sheeple were smart, they all would have done that
years ago and there would be nothing but illegal aliens working there
now or many of the stores would have closed long ago due to lack of
employees. Nope, someone else will always be willing to settle for
second best and taxpayers will keep losing more and more of their
earnings to support them.

Don't get me wrong, I agree no one is forced to work there but the
problem is many people can't see past tomorrow and will continue to
slave away at Wal-Mart and be a burden on the taxpayers because they
just don't know any better or could care less.

> --
> ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> > said I
> >> >> was wrong or lying.
Rod Speed - 16 May 2005 21:14 GMT
>> Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school.
> who
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> slave away at Wal-Mart and be a burden on the taxpayers because they
> just don't know any better or could care less.

Just another inevitable result of the terminal stupidity
of the employer paying for health insurance.

>> Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S.
>> Michigan, USA
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>> > said I
>> >> >> was wrong or lying.
NOYB - 16 May 2005 22:27 GMT
> Just another inevitable result of the terminal stupidity
> of the employer paying for health insurance.

Bingo.
Dr Steve - 16 May 2005 22:21 GMT
>> Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school.
> who
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> slave away at Wal-Mart and be a burden on the taxpayers because they
> just don't know any better or could care less.

If they wish to continue, they may, just don't burden me with their
complaints.
NOYB - 16 May 2005 22:26 GMT
>> Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school.
> who
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> to keep on doing what they are doing and you'll keep on supporting
> them.

Without Wal-Mart, many of them would be unemployed.  And even if a small
business popped up to fill the void of a Wal-Mart, a small business cannot
afford to pay for employees' health insurance.
invisigyrl@gmail.com - 22 May 2005 03:53 GMT
Yikes.
For one thing, things ain't the way they used to be, 50 years ago, or
even 25 years ago when I was able to build something like an income and
a business.

Second, some people do not have a choice about whether or not to work
at WalMart, when they really is no other choice if they want to feed
their kids, or in some cases, any medical help at all, and those
"choice" jobs at WalMart have hundreds of applicants for 2 or 3
positions. Not to mention all the bullsh*t testing they make an
applicant endure.

3rd, I am new to the list, so I just jumped right in.
4th - what has this got to do with sci.med.dentistry?

Just curious.
*Bit*

> > Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school.
> who
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
> > > said I
> > >> >> was wrong or lying.
DrSteve - 22 May 2005 04:12 GMT
Yikes yourself.

Too many people take the easy way out.  Believe me when I tell you my
existence has not been easy to get where I am today.  And, anyone with
enough drive can do as much and more in today's world.  It has to do with
the desire to improve one self and the willingness to make initial
sacrifices.  People clamor for Wall-Mart jobs because they lack the drive to
push themselves higher.  Or, they are simply not willing to make the
sacrifices necessary to achieve changes.

> Yikes.
> For one thing, things ain't the way they used to be, 50 years ago, or
[quoted text clipped - 101 lines]
>> > > said I
>> > >> >> was wrong or lying.
Rod Speed - 22 May 2005 04:17 GMT
> Yikes.
> For one thing, things ain't the way they used to be,
> 50 years ago, or even 25 years ago when I was able
> to build something like an income and a business.

Everything changes over time. Plenty of new immigrants manage fine.

> Second, some people do not have a choice about
> whether or not to work at WalMart, when they really
> is no other choice if they want to feed their kids,

There are NO starving kids in north america.

> or in some cases, any medical help at all,

Lie, there is always medical treatment available.

> and those "choice" jobs at WalMart have hundreds
> of applicants for 2 or 3 positions. Not to mention all
> the bullsh*t testing they make an applicant endure.

They get to do whatever they like with that many applicants.

> 3rd, I am new to the list, so I just jumped right in.

You'll be soorree... |-)

> 4th - what has this got to do with sci.med.dentistry?

Just Joel playing silly buggers, again.

> Just curious.

You know what that did to the cat dont you ?

> *Bit*

>> > Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school.
>> who
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
>> > > said I
>> > >> >> was wrong or lying.
me@privacy.net - 16 May 2005 20:49 GMT
>Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. who
>switched careers three times to get where he is now,

what three different careers did you have?
Steven Fawks - 16 May 2005 22:51 GMT
For myself, I don't think I had any 'career' prior to being a dentist.

However, I had done farm labor, worked on a turkey farm, in a
galvanizing plant, unloaded rail cars, stock boy, bakery assistant,
and in a pre-fab house factory.

Enough experience to make me appreciate dentistry.

Fawks

>>Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. who
>>switched careers three times to get where he is now,
>
> what three different careers did you have?
Joel M. Eichen - 17 May 2005 01:22 GMT
I walked to and from school ten miles .....

EACH DAY.

Both ways were uphill too.

Joel

> For myself, I don't think I had any 'career' prior to being a dentist.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >
> > what three different careers did you have?
me@privacy.net - 17 May 2005 14:34 GMT
>However, I had done farm labor, worked on a turkey farm, in a
>galvanizing plant, unloaded rail cars, stock boy, bakery assistant,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Fawks

so how did you wind up a dentist?
Steven Fawks - 17 May 2005 17:18 GMT
I always liked science and thought about majoring in chemistry
in college.  Coming from a small town, I chickened out.  Majored
in industrial technology, dropped out, got a little older, saw
more of the country (and the people), met a girl who was still in
college, and decided I could do what I wanted if I would work at it.

I was right, things fell into place, and the rest is history.

:-)
Fawks

(oh yeah, been married to 'that girl' for almost 30 years now, three
kids, and 26 years in private practice)

>>However, I had done farm labor, worked on a turkey farm, in a
>>galvanizing plant, unloaded rail cars, stock boy, bakery assistant,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>>Fawks

> so how did you wind up a dentist?
me@privacy.net - 17 May 2005 17:24 GMT
>Coming from a small town, I chickened out.

can u explain the above comment?

do u feel a small town attitude works against this
Steven Fawks - 17 May 2005 19:25 GMT
Good comment.  Probably an oversimplification on my part.

I started out 15 miles north of nowhere and went to a very small country
school through 4th grade.  My family then moved to the edge of a small
town (2,000), and I finished elementary and high school there.  The
class size averaged around 50 kids.  The thought of attending a
university and competing with all of the 'city kids' was a little scary.
Maybe it wasn't the 'small town' background alone, and some of my family
and personal reservations (only one close relative had graduated from
college and he had been the validictorian of his senior class).

After one year of college (too much partying), joining the National
Guard (basic training & Military Police School), and working for a
while longer, I became more confident in what I could accomplish and
just went back to college with the idea that 'I can do this'.

There are lots of reasons to lack the guts to 'go for it' right out of
high school.  Where you go to school, how well you do in that school,
your family support, role models, mentors, etc. all have an impact.
Being lost in the crowd of a large suburban school could have similar
negative effects.

Fawks

>>Coming from a small town, I chickened out.
>
> can u explain the above comment?
>
> do u feel a small town attitude works against this
me@privacy.net - 18 May 2005 15:52 GMT
>There are lots of reasons to lack the guts to 'go for it' right out of
>high school.  Where you go to school, how well you do in that school,
>your family support, role models, mentors, etc. all have an impact.
>Being lost in the crowd of a large suburban school could have similar
>negative effects.

Agree 100 percent Fawks!

I think that's why I didn't go to college straight out
of high school.... just too chicken for want of better
way to say it.  I was very unsure of myself...shy, etc

Now I'm not saying that was a good decision to not go!
In fact it was the worst decision of my life.  College
was the very thing I SHOULD have done at that age.....
not only for educational reason.... but social and
confidence building reasons as well.

Oh well.... live and learn
sweetchild - 18 May 2005 01:33 GMT
Congrats on your success...BUT...not everyone's life does and there  are
always going to be manual/blue collar labor...everyone deserves decent
health care..that is NOT a luxury IMO...
Peggy

> I always liked science and thought about majoring in chemistry
> in college.  Coming from a small town, I chickened out.  Majored
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> > so how did you wind up a dentist?
Steven Fawks - 18 May 2005 15:32 GMT
That seems to be a current theme.

Got any good ideas about how to pay for it?  If *everyone* gets food,
clothing, shelter, and health care whether they work or not, the bills
keep getting higher and higher.

You also have to throw in the fact that many of the people who 'deserve'
free health care (and other 'necessities') are smoking, drinking, and
overweight (plus many of them *chose* to drop out of school).

Does a person have a 'right' to enjoy the benefits of society when they
make no effort to make a possitive contribution to that society?

Even though I started life in a drafty farm house with no phone, TV, or
running water, I wasn't raised to believe society owed me anything.  If
I expected to survive, I expected to work.

Living in a 'free' society is a luxury.  Luxuries are not truly free.
Someone has to pay the bills.  Each member of that society should pay
a part of that bill.  The wealthy should pay a larger part than the
poor, but that doesn't mean any normal adult should be able to sponge
off of the rest of society without doing something to help out.

There is much more to this issue than "everybody deserves decent health
care".

Regards,
Fawks

> Congrats on your success...BUT...not everyone's life does and there  are
> always going to be manual/blue collar labor...everyone deserves decent
> health care..that is NOT a luxury IMO...
> Peggy
amdfroe@aol.com - 18 May 2005 16:37 GMT
>Does a person have a 'right' to enjoy the benefits of society when they
>make no effort to make a possitive contribution to that society?

Sure, their ancestors paid into the system.
sweetchild - 18 May 2005 17:03 GMT
Where did this turn into a "free" food , clothing and shelter argument??
This is not a cash assistance/food stamp/medical assistance  welfare debate
in which I am NOT interested in participating because it does not pertain to
this topic.

Not one thread  said anything about "free" at all.
I am talking "affordable" for people that cannot afford the premiums..they
are soo way out of line.
Wages have NOT gone up as rapidly as health care costs. Maybe the "top heavy
greedies" aka...the  pharm companies and the insurance agencies have become
greedy mongers  as well and are somewhat accountable for this whole thing??
Also I can recall hospitals charging $50 for ONE  Tylenol pill back in the
1980s.. ad presently  charging at least  $400 just to walk into ER ( without
doctor exam) which is where sick uninsured  end up going bc they have no
other choice ( unless there is a doctor  charging less $$ for an office
visit)
One SIMPLE office visit of 5 minutes  may  cost half of a weeks salary not
including prescripts...
Also if you are going to pick out obese people and smokers and drinkers
..well then  that wouldn't just be limited to the fat and smoking
"poor"..........

What about companies who   employ obese & smokers and drinkers ...should
they cancel all of their policies too because they are attributing to this
out of control situation? Do you start with overweight  people or obese
people ...social drinkers or alcoholics....casual smokers or chain
smokers...??
No one is asking here for a freebie-- most working poor work  VERY hard for
their wages.... and if everyone were completely educated with a doctorates
degree who WOULD work at Wally's World et al...think about it-- everyone who
works performs SOME benefit to society.  A carpenter or carpenters assistant
may give  many more benefits to our society via improving living conditions
this year thru his "menial labor" than some stagnant  HIGH position
politician who will receive MORE respect while doing  almost NOTHING and
contributes to the high burden on taxpayers which  do not forget includes
their 5 figure  "lunches" and "trips" for "business/pleasure"  yearly
expenses all on the taxpayers back.

Everyone deserves decent *affordable* healthcare... Peggy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> That seems to be a current theme.
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> > health care..that is NOT a luxury IMO...
> > Peggy
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 28 May 2005 19:06 GMT
> Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. who
> switched careers three times to get where he is now, and moved to a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> does not mean the displaced workers can not better themselves.  Been
> there--done that.

    When I was 18, I could get a free higher education at Brooklyn College.
 Auto manufacturers were hiring, and they paid real benefits.  Tuition
at dental school was about $5k/year, and loans were available.
Most people had jobs with real benefits, and employers cared little for
THOSE people, and hired them only for low-paying, exploitive jobs.  Of
course they didn't have to take any job, and generally were encouraged
to "go back where they came from".
    My grandparents came over, worked their a.ses off, and things got
better--for their grandchildren.  But 3 of the 4 never did learn to read
or write.  No, I don't think they were getting into dental school--or
the electrician's union.
    I think it's easy to romanticize Chinese boat people who come here
illegally (many dying), working on Canal Street in sweatshops 16 hours a
day, and getting their kids into Stuyvesant High School.  Sure it's
admirable.  Is that really what you think this country should be about?

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Dr. Steve - 29 May 2005 03:56 GMT
>> Ummm,,, you are talking to a person who put himself through school. who
>> switched careers three times to get where he is now, and moved to a
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>Steve

Hi Steve,

I don't think comparison to illegal immigrants is appropriate. those
people have to spend valuable time and energy avoiding deportation.
We could certainly argue about making these people LEGAL immigrant. I
would mostly support that idea.

Also, I don't feel discussing grandparent's progress in the early
1900's is appropriate. Very different world.  

Currently, in the USA, a person can go as for as they can ride their
personal  ambition and willingness to make sacrifices.

..
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA

I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
Steven Bornfeld - 29 May 2005 17:37 GMT
> Hi Steve,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
> Troy, Michigan, USA

    This is of course the old Horatio Alger myth.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying something along the
lines of "If I could do it, anyone can".
    Allow me to suggest a couple of alternative explanations.  Not everyone
is as intelligent as you are.  Not everyone has the same family support.
 Not everyone has the same determination.  Last and certainly not
least, not everyone has the same dumb luck.
    There was a segment of the PBS news magazine "Now" a few weeks ago,
that showed some solid working class folks who went from solvency to
poverty in a short time because of illness.  It is possible they might
have known they wouldn't be sufficiently protected by their medical
insurance (yes, they had medical insurance), but given the circumstances
I can certainly understand that they might not.
    There is a strong tendency in this country to say that poor people are
poor for reasons they can themselves control, and I'm sure this is
frequently true.  But not always.

Steve

> I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.

Signature

Cut the nonsense to reply

Dr. Steve - 29 May 2005 23:27 GMT
>> Hi Steve,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying something along the
>lines of "If I could do it, anyone can".

No I am just pointing out that it can be done.

>    Allow me to suggest a couple of alternative explanations.  Not everyone
>is as intelligent as you are.

Intelligence is not as important as drive.

> Not everyone has the same family support.

What is family support?   I paid for all my own school while making
house payments and owning, two good cars. (3 by the end of DS),  all
paid off with my own money.

>  Not everyone has the same determination.

agreed.   That is what is required to improve yourself.

> Last and certainly not
>least, not everyone has the same dumb luck.

Sorry, luck has nothing to do with it.

>    There was a segment of the PBS news magazine "Now" a few weeks ago,
>that showed some solid working class folks who went from solvency to
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>> I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.

..
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA

I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
Steven Bornfeld - 30 May 2005 02:51 GMT
>>>Hi Steve,
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Intelligence is not as important as drive.

    That probably depends upon the goal.
    You know, when I raced bicycles, a young man in my club won all 5 races
in our club championship series.  I was 33 at the time; he had just
turned 13.  He has raced in the Tour de France the last several seasons.
 You may say that all I needed to beat him was more drive.  I cannot
prove you wrong, but...

>>Not everyone has the same family support.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Sorry, luck has nothing to do with it.

    I can't prove that either.
    I know I have been surely blessed in many ways, and know that at many
steps along the way, things might have been different, and my life may
have turned out very differently.
    May you continue to enjoy as you have many of the blessings I have also
had in my life.

Steve
Signature

Cut the nonsense to reply

Dr. Steve - 30 May 2005 03:11 GMT
>>>>Hi Steve,
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>  You may say that all I needed to beat him was more drive.  I cannot
>prove you wrong, but...

We are not talking about sport events. We are talking about raising a
standard of living.  No amount of drive will ever Make me a
professional basketball player.  But, enough drive and sacrifice could
make me a team owner.

>>>Not everyone has the same family support.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>Steve

..
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA

I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
W_B - 31 May 2005 16:46 GMT
>>  You may say that all I needed to beat him was more drive.  I cannot
>>prove you wrong, but...
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>professional basketball player.  But, enough drive and sacrifice could
>make me a team owner.

The Mancuso Mavericks ?
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr Steve - 31 May 2005 19:51 GMT
Anyone able to recall the name of a successful professional baseball player
of Sicilian descent?  At 5'8" tall, I look over the top of most of the crowd
at our Italian club dinner dances.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S.
Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
>>>  You may say that all I needed to beat him was more drive.  I cannot
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr Steve - 31 May 2005 19:55 GMT
Sorry, that should read "Basketball" not "baseball".  Hit the spell checker
too quick.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S.
Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

> Anyone able to recall the name of a successful professional baseball
> player of Sicilian descent?  At 5'8" tall, I look over the top of most of
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>> Take out the G'RBAGE
>> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 31 May 2005 20:02 GMT
> Sorry, that should read "Basketball" not "baseball".  Hit the spell checker
> too quick.

Nate Archibald?

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Dr Steve - 31 May 2005 20:15 GMT
>> Sorry, that should read "Basketball" not "baseball".  Hit the spell
>> checker too quick.
>
> Nate Archibald?

Sicilian???
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 31 May 2005 20:03 GMT
> Sorry, that should read "Basketball" not "baseball".  Hit the spell checker
> too quick.

My wife doesn't think there have been any real Jewish athletes either.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Dr Steve - 31 May 2005 20:16 GMT
Well there have been plenty of Sicilian and Jewish athletes.  The problem is
very few seven foot tall athletes of either group.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S.
Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
>> Sorry, that should read "Basketball" not "baseball".  Hit the spell
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Steve
W_B - 31 May 2005 20:36 GMT
>Well there have been plenty of Sicilian and Jewish athletes.  The problem is
>very few seven foot tall athletes of either group.

You have to be seven feet tall to play bocci ball ?

Who knew.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 31 May 2005 20:01 GMT
> Anyone able to recall the name of a successful professional baseball player
> of Sicilian descent?  At 5'8" tall, I look over the top of most of the crowd
> at our Italian club dinner dances.

Joe DiMaggio?

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

clintonz@prodigy.net - 31 May 2005 23:10 GMT
> Anyone able to recall the name of a successful professional baseball player
> of Sicilian descent?  At 5'8" tall, I look over the top of most of the crowd
> at our Italian club dinner dances.

Wasn't Napolean Sicilian, or was he from Corisca if that is
not considered sicilian. I think he was a lot shorter than 5'8''. Of
course if you go back 100 years everyone was under 5'8''. In the 1800's
if you where over 5'8'' they would'nt feed you.

Over time the average height (probably due to the availability
of food) has increased which is why I think you see a new WR in track
and field and swimming being set each year (plus better equipment and
materials). Number of home runs in baseball (also due to steriods) has
been on an upward trend. These trends cannot continue forwever, however.
clintonz@prodigy.net - 31 May 2005 23:46 GMT
> > Anyone able to recall the name of a successful professional baseball player
> > of Sicilian descent?  At 5'8" tall, I look over the top of most of the crowd
> > at our Italian club dinner dances.

Lasorda?
Mike Piazza!

>From CNN..

Piazza's father, Vince, ... Piazza is a first-generation American,
Sicilian to the bone, who left high school without a diploma but with
outsized drive. His first love was baseball. He grew poor up in
Norristown, a working-class town surrounded by leafy suburban
Philadelphia, a few years behind his boyhood idol, Lasorda, the kid
down the street who was signed by the Dodgers. Lasorda had made it.
W_B - 31 May 2005 16:45 GMT
>> Intelligence is not as important as drive.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>  You may say that all I needed to beat him was more drive.  I cannot
>prove you wrong, but...

That and minus 15 - 18 years.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 31 May 2005 16:49 GMT
>>>Intelligence is not as important as drive.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> That and minus 15 - 18 years.

    I'm blaming my parents on this one.

Steve
> --
>
> W_B
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

W_B - 31 May 2005 17:21 GMT
>> That and minus 15 - 18 years.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>
>> W_B

Genetics are a b*tch, ain't they ?  <hehe>
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
clintonz@prodigy.net - 29 May 2005 20:02 GMT
> Currently, in the USA, a person can go as for as they can ride their
> personal  ambition and willingness to make sacrifices.

Speaking of Walmart, I worked as a cashier once, let me just say that
working as a cashier in one of these places is not an easy job as
people on this list are assuming.

For example, Every go to a grocery store?

See the black window on the side where the manager sits?
That's a one-way glass to monitor employees, which by the
way they have a two-way microphone in each station.
Would you like to be working for a company and have your
Boss staring at you and possibly listening to everything
you say all day? Every loaf of bread, every can of soup and every other
item scanned is monitored by computer so the manager can compute the
exact efficency down to the minute every week.
Smith, I see your effiency dropped on friday and saturday!
Don't scan slow! Scan fast. But look like your happy when the
Boss is watching you talk with the customers through the one-way
glass. Some companies even teach the employees how to use a "swimming
motion" for maxium scanning effeciency and periodically (when needed)
show them training videotapes in the back room made by out of work
actors on how to be friendly to the customer.

Fundamntally, It's the same working environment as an assembly line at
Ford with fewer benifits (did I mention the union dues you pay so they
can negotitiate overtime and make sure you don't work on holidays) and
in addition to being like an assembly line, solving random math
problems every 5 minutes too! Customers can pay at least 3 ways , use
coupons, bring in random untagged items,
pay with foodstamps and ooops i'm sorry, could you unscan that fourth
item and replace it with a six-pack and use THIS coupon here instead
which I've decided to pay for by credit instead and I don't have my
discount card after-all? What does that come to?

(And What! you want ME to go to aisle six and check the price for
this unmarked item?  Also,Dont' forget to pack my first bag this way
and I like the cold items packed that way and work with a big smile the
whole time too).

Did you know that a cashier in some stores (I'm not saying
Walmart) can be fired for just ONE complaint and that it is
a scientifically proven fact that 1 out of every 100 people
is a mega-a.shole?

Did you know some companies try to get their employee's to double as
security guards and by the way many stores get robbed
at gunpoint once a year, so if you think someone who
can be looking down the barrel of a gun, standing next
to cash machine any given day who may also have to assist in
the apprhension of a shoplifting suspect while also, serving
as a maid to constantly keep their station clean all day, doesn't
deserve health insurance...

Some companies also employ secret shoppers whose job it
is to get some random cashier put on probabtion if they
forget to do something such as say, THank the customer
by LAST name (which while being on the lookout for possible
shoplifiting suspects they are supposed to indiscreetely
memorize from the check).

Did I also mention the cashier is on fraud patrol becasue they
have to make sure every check is legitamte and that each shopper
being certain items really is over 18 (What I am sooo offendend,
isn't it OBVIOUS I'm 22) and that no one has a previous history of
cashing bad checks, etc, etc.

While everything else was occuring I also hope you don't mess up when
that customer with the screaming baby gave two tens and you thought it
was 2 20's because when that manager that has been staring at you all
day through the one-way glass comes to compare the cash with the
computer records of scanned items, you better not be short..

Working as a cashier also requires a tremendous amount of memorization
because you have to know the code for everything. What is the code for
banas, lemons , grapefuit, watermelon, snow
peas, oranges etc etc. What is the code for weight without a container,
with a container, with just a plastic bag etc.
Yeah, Someone has to Enter in those codes. In fact people require
usually at least a month of training before they are  even functional
at a cashier job.

So, don't underestimate the life of the lowly cashier...
glamerous and easy job it is not!
Steven Bornfeld - 29 May 2005 21:13 GMT
> Speaking of Walmart, I worked as a cashier once, let me just say that
> working as a cashier in one of these places is not an easy job as
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
> So, don't underestimate the life of the lowly cashier...
> glamerous and easy job it is not!

    There is a food coop in Park Slope, Brooklyn (I do not belong, but my
wife used to).
    The cashiers of course are volunteers, and most are middle-aged folk,
many with advanced degrees.  Not only are they slow as molasses, they
have a backup "checker" to make sure the pHd who rung up the sale didn't
make any mistakes.

Steve

Signature

Cut the nonsense to reply

clintonz@prodigy.net - 30 May 2005 18:55 GMT
>     There is a food coop in Park Slope, Brooklyn (I do not belong, but my
> wife used to).
>     The cashiers of course are volunteers, and most are middle-aged folk,
> many with advanced degrees.  Not only are they slow as molasses,

I remember Tim Conway doing his slow man routine on the Carol
Burnett Show. One time I think he was the cashier in a seafood
store. that was pretty funny.
The Real Bev - 30 May 2005 03:24 GMT
>         When I was 18, I could get a free higher education at Brooklyn College.
>   Auto manufacturers were hiring, and they paid real benefits.  Tuition
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> day, and getting their kids into Stuyvesant High School.  Sure it's
> admirable.  Is that really what you think this country should be about?

Sounds like it was what your grandparents thought it was about.  

> Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
> http://www.dentaltwins.com

Does it make you feel really creepy when you see that movie about the twin
gynecologists?

Signature

Cheers, Bev
=============================================================
My house isn't a pigsty, it's an Immunity Enhancement Center.

NOYB - 16 May 2005 22:25 GMT
>> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Those who have lost jobs and do not wish to work at the new Wal-Mart
> can stay at home and collect even more welfare.

You think that the local mom and pop operations are capable of providing
health insurance to their employees?  Why should the responsibility of
purchasing health insurance fall on the employer?
sweetchild - 18 May 2005 02:04 GMT
Remember...Back in the 1960s an average worker could pay for the birth of
their child and the hospital stay of their wife which was about a WEEK for a
regular birth..... because it was reasonable and able to be paid off! The
cost of living was within reason to healthcare costs...who had insurance?
Not many...just basic hospitalization...then  things got more and more
complex and complicated....
Now.. the cost of medicine and seeing a doc without even having ANY  tests
is  out of sight. Cost of living is up...wages are down...Forget health
tests.... who can afford to pay for tests with no insurance  if you are not
rich??
That is the difference-- until something changes  this there are going to
be a lot of people  needlessly dying in the near future...we have the
technology to offer  but only for SOME to benefit from-- the haves and the
have nots... elitist attitude.
Teachers get health insurance funded by taxpayers...govt workers receive
health bennys funded by taxpayers...maybe we should ALL get this type of
insurance... funded by taxpayers..OR...maybe ultra greedy business gobbling
enterprises  should be somewhat responsible to  assist in making up for
pitiful wages  and hours they offer  at the very least by offering or
providing affordable health insurance...their profits I am sure will still
be obscene .

45 million people  in this country  presently do NOT have insurance ....
The majority of the ones that DO  and are NOT self employed  have are funded
thru their employers....

I am from PA too......

Peggy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> health insurance to their employees?  Why should the responsibility of
> purchasing health insurance fall on the employer?
Tony Bad - 18 May 2005 02:51 GMT
The difference between the days of yore when costs were manageable was that
there was a measure of personal responsibility associated with medical
spending back then.

The advent of insurance allowed people to develop a "whatever my insurance
covers" mentality and they were unconcerned about how much was being spent
or how costs spiraled out of sight.

It is a buffet mentality. Look at how wastefully and excessively many will
fill their plate when cost is no object. The only solution to out of control
healthcare costs is to force people to understand and be accountable for the
dollars being spent.

T

> Remember...Back in the 1960s an average worker could pay for the birth of
> their child and the hospital stay of their wife which was about a WEEK for a
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> > health insurance to their employees?  Why should the responsibility of
> > purchasing health insurance fall on the employer?
NOYB - 18 May 2005 03:10 GMT
> The difference between the days of yore when costs were manageable was
> that
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> the
> dollars being spent.

Health Savings Accounts.  But the problem is that you then have a consumer's
dollar competing with an insurance company's dollar.  The people with
insurance will still act under the "buffet mentality" and squeeze out the
cost-conscious consumer.
Steven Fawks - 18 May 2005 19:31 GMT
Is that ever right!

Used to be that medical insurance was like homeowners insurance.  You
never used it unless there was a catastrophic event.  You were
responsible for routine maitenance.  Termites, new roof, paint, carpet,
appliances, furniture, etc. are all the responsibility of the homeowner
(barring those items were damaged by a covered catastrophe).  Mumps,
measles, sprained ankles, 'regular' broken bones, infections, etc. were
paid for out of pocket.  People didn't even run to the doctor with every
little sneeze or sniffle.

Now everyone wants 'insurance' (or 'somebody') to pay for everything.
Eyeglasses, drugs, dental care, physicians exams, babies, you name it.
"They" deserve decent health care (and by the way, they shouldn't have
to work for it or pay for it with 'their' money).

Move to a socialist country already.  Health care may be 'free' there,
but it's rationed.

Fawks

> The difference between the days of yore when costs were manageable was that
> there was a measure of personal responsibility associated with medical
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> T
Rod Speed - 18 May 2005 03:05 GMT
> Remember...Back in the 1960s an average worker could pay for the birth
> of their child and the hospital stay of their wife which was about a WEEK
> for a regular birth..... because it was reasonable and able to be paid off!

Still is.

> The cost of living was within reason to healthcare costs...
> who had insurance? Not many...just basic hospitalization...

And even you should have noticed that hardly anyone has their
brats at home. They must be paying for it somehow even now.

> then things got more and more complex and complicated....
> Now.. the cost of medicine and seeing a doc
> without even having ANY  tests is  out of sight.

Bullshit.

> Cost of living is up...wages are down...

More bullshit. Wages are up too.

> Forget health tests.... who can afford to pay
> for tests with no insurance if you are not rich??

Plenty.

> That is the difference-- until something changes  this there are
> going to be a lot of people  needlessly dying in the near future...

Bullshit. The modern reality is that very few die due to
medical problems anymore, the absolute vast bulk of
those who do die die as a result of stuff like car accidents.

> we have the technology to offer but only for SOME to benefit from--

More drivel. The rate of death in childbirth is microscopic now.

So is the death rate due to infectious disease now too.

> the haves and the have nots... elitist attitude.

Or utterly mindless silly stuff from you.

> Teachers get health insurance funded by taxpayers... govt
> workers receive health bennys funded by taxpayers... maybe
> we should ALL get this type of insurance... funded by taxpayers..

Absolutely no sense in using an insurance system to do that.

> OR...maybe ultra greedy business gobbling enterprises
> should be somewhat responsible to  assist in making up
> for pitiful wages and hours they offer  at the very least
> by offering or providing affordable health insurance...

Terminally stupid to have that paid for by the employer.

> their profits I am sure will still be obscene .

Unlikely with small business.

> 45 million people  in this country
> presently do NOT have insurance ....

And manage fine anyway. Lowest death rate we have ever seen.

> The majority of the ones that DO  and are NOT
> self employed have are funded thru their employers....

Terminally stupid system.

>> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> health insurance to their employees?  Why should the responsibility of
>> purchasing health insurance fall on the employer?
NOYB - 18 May 2005 03:08 GMT
> Remember...Back in the 1960s an average worker could pay for the birth of
> their child and the hospital stay of their wife which was about a WEEK for
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> I am from PA too......

No argument here.  But you can't force a small business to provide health
care insurance unless you give small businesses the same access to group
rates that large companies, labor unions, and government employees are
afforded.  Bush has spoken several times about passing legislation to create
AHP's (Association Health Plans).  They've passed the House and have stalled
in the Senate.  Why?  Because the Senators in the states that already have
affordable health insurance know that their constituent's rates will
increase to help offset the rates in the states that have much higher rates.
Don Klipstein - 18 May 2005 06:31 GMT
>> Remember...Back in the 1960s an average worker could pay for the birth of
>> their child and the hospital stay of their wife which was about a WEEK for
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>rates that large companies, labor unions, and government employees are
>afforded.

 Not a problem in the prosperous industrialized nations of this planet,
with the single exception being one with 50 "states" (more like
provinces) 48 of which are in the middle of North America, and the 49th at
the northwest extreme of North America and the 50th being some islands in
the north-central or centralish-northeastish-middle of the tropical
Pacific!

>Bush has spoken several times about passing legislation to create
>AHP's (Association Health Plans).  They've passed the House and have stalled
>in the Senate.  Why?  Because the Senators in the states that already have
>affordable health insurance know that their constituent's rates will
>increase to help offset the rates in the states that have much higher rates.

 This is a problem specific to the single one of the major prosperous
democracies that has not yet nationalized their healthcare many years
after every other prosperous industrialized democratic nation has done so!

 Dare we get into the fact that Canada's government spending on
healthcare as a percentage of GDP is close to that of the USA, *not
including* (in USA USA-specific) employer contributions to health
insurance of governemnt employees whose jobs are nominally not for
healthcare stuff such as Medicare/Medicaid - such as most public school
teachers and most police officers?
 What does USA get for its taxpayers paying a small minority of
healthcare expenses of its citizens younger than 65 and shorting its
65-plus "senior citizens" to an extent of creating a market for "medigap"
"supplemental insurance", while having all levels and brances of its
government spenhding a percentage of GDP within a fraction of a percent of
that of Canada *Plus* (*In Addition*) employer contributions to most
government employees outside healthcare fields, such as public school
teachers, police officers, and politicians on state, county and municipal
level as well as anyone elected or not being on some government payroll in
the "Justice System" as a judge, court transcriber, courthoue building
manager, jailhouse building manager or maintenance worker, "correctional
officer" or "prison guard", or all expenses of prison builders, as well as
"Public Defenders" constitutionally mandated to defend impoverished
criminal defendants!

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
wrongaddress@att.net - 22 May 2005 05:44 GMT
> Those who have lost jobs and do not wish to work at the new Wal-Mart
> can stay at home and collect even more welfare. It's provided to them

> by those people who make higher incomes, like doctors

Where is this community where I can stay home and collect free welfare?
I'm interested in moving in. Do they accept single white males with no
kids, or do I need a few anchor babies born to some illegal alien to
qualify?

How do I get the free money?  I need it as soon as possible.
Please reply in English.

Thanks,

-Bill
bicycle - 22 May 2005 10:17 GMT
> > Those who have lost jobs and do not wish to work at the new Wal-Mart
> > can stay at home and collect even more welfare. It's provided to them
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> How do I get the free money?  I need it as soon as possible.
> Please reply in English.

Ask someone who collects welfare, in your case that would be your
mother.
wrongaddress@att.net - 23 May 2005 00:31 GMT
> Ask someone who collects welfare, in your case that would
> be your mother.

Sorry, I don't have a mother, she died of cancer when I was 12, and my
father died from drinking a couple years later.

The only welfare they get is the grass cut and watered, so the
lawn looks nice and green.

-Bill
bicycle - 23 May 2005 02:19 GMT
> > Ask someone who collects welfare, in your case that would
> > be your mother.
>
> Sorry, I don't have a mother, she died of cancer when I was 12, and my
> father died from drinking a couple years later.

Troll-O-Meter: 1.3

> The only welfare they get is the grass cut and watered, so the
> lawn looks nice and green.

Lame-O-Meter: 9.9

I will give your circuit site a perfect 10 though. Lot's of good stuff
there.
Joel M. Eichen - 16 May 2005 19:21 GMT
> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Michigan, USA
> ....................................................

No one is forced to work there, but medical care is
kind of a God given right. In the case of the Wal-Mart/Medical
Assistance folks, society, or more precisely the taxpayers of
our commonwealth are making up the cost of the medical care.

ARITHMETIC

Wal-Mart low prices + increased taxes to pay
for medical care = old mom and pop store prices!

Joel

> This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
> Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
[quoted text clipped - 203 lines]
> >> >
> >> >       email this
Dave King - 16 May 2005 21:11 GMT
>> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>No one is forced to work there, but medical care is
>kind of a God given right.

Since when is benefitting from anothers hard work and dedication a God
given right?

Maybe you should be talking to Sallie Mae on my behalf?

> In the case of the Wal-Mart/Medical
>Assistance folks, society, or more precisely the taxpayers of
[quoted text clipped - 216 lines]
>> >> >
>> >> >       email this
Joel M. Eichen - 16 May 2005 21:19 GMT
> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Maybe you should be talking to Sallie Mae on my behalf?

REPLY

Hi Dave,

Say there's a motorcycle accident and the guy smashes
his face. Insurance or not, they bring him to your hospital.

You repair the damage.

If he has no resources, then the taypayer pays the bill, right?

Some say Walmart with billions in profits
should contribute towards those bills.

This is currently being debated in Pennsylvania.

Joel

> > In the case of the Wal-Mart/Medical
> >Assistance folks, society, or more precisely the taxpayers of
[quoted text clipped - 216 lines]
> >> >> >
> >> >> >       email this
NOYB - 16 May 2005 22:31 GMT
>> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> This is currently being debated in Pennsylvania.

Some say that the motorcycle driver should have spent his motorcycle premium
on health insurance instead of a death-trap on two wheels.  And those "some"
would be right.
Joel M. Eichen - 17 May 2005 01:23 GMT
Make 'em ride Segways instead.

Joel

> >> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
> >> >>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> on health insurance instead of a death-trap on two wheels.  And those "some"
> would be right.
NOYB - 17 May 2005 03:06 GMT
> Make 'em ride Segways instead.

Even the President, with all of his security detail, wasn't safe on a
Segway.
sweetchild - 18 May 2005 01:37 GMT
Well....
some would say that the cost of motorcycle insurance ( bet $100-200 a year)
is  wayy cheaper than HEALTH insurance by 50x ( 5k-10k or more a year)  and
much cheaper than car insurance so maybe that is the only reasonable
alternative for them to GET to work ...
Everyone DESERVES  acceptable  health insurance at a reasonable cost... not
just "some" people who inhabit this country-- ALL....
Peggy

> >> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
> >> >>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> on health insurance instead of a death-trap on two wheels.  And those "some"
> would be right.
Rod Speed - 18 May 2005 03:06 GMT
> Well....
> some would say that the cost of motorcycle insurance ( bet $100-200 a year)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Everyone DESERVES  acceptable  health insurance at a reasonable cost... not
> just "some" people who inhabit this country-- ALL....

Taint gunna happen while ever the insurance system is used.

Every other modern first world country has noticed.

You fools havent ? Your problem.

>> >> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
>> >> >>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> "some"
>> would be right.
Rod Speed - 16 May 2005 23:09 GMT
>> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
>> Maybe you should be talking to Sallie Mae on my behalf?

> Say there's a motorcycle accident and the guy smashes
> his face. Insurance or not, they bring him to your hospital.

> You repair the damage.

> If he has no resources, then the taypayer pays the bill, right?

Wrong. The insurance does.

> Some say Walmart with billions in profits
> should contribute towards those bills.

Only the fools.

> This is currently being debated in Pennsylvania.

Plenty of fools there.

>> > In the case of the Wal-Mart/Medical
>> >Assistance folks, society, or more precisely the taxpayers of
[quoted text clipped - 255 lines]
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >       email this
bicycle - 17 May 2005 00:40 GMT
Are you from Pennsylavania?

> > >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
> > >>
[quoted text clipped - 289 lines]
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >       email this
Joel M. Eichen - 17 May 2005 02:12 GMT
> Are you from Pennsylavania?

Yup.

Joel
Dave King - 17 May 2005 13:29 GMT
>> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>If he has no resources, then the taypayer pays the bill, right?

Not my fees. If I am covering trauma that day, I am responsible for
his care. The hospital fees would be somewhat covered by the taxpayers
but I would not only get fat goose-eggs, but no recup on the lost time
in my office or with my family. Some trauma cases that I have done can
be in the range of 20K-30K for full reconstruction and laceration
repair.

They only time I MAY get compensated when the patient has no insurance
is with violent crime. If the patient files a claim and it is
approved, I will get paid but unfortunately by the taxpayers.

>Some say Walmart with billions in profits
>should contribute towards those bills.

I never would say that.

Material want versus immaterial need is a troubling decision for some
folks. Choices sure can be evil when you chose the wrong way.

>This is currently being debated in Pennsylvania.

Along with gun control. If the nutty anti-gun types get their way in
Philly, only criminals will have guns.

>Joel
>
[quoted text clipped - 257 lines]
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >       email this
W_B - 31 May 2005 15:36 GMT
>>This is currently being debated in Pennsylvania.
>
>Along with gun control. If the nutty anti-gun types get their way in
>Philly, only criminals will have guns.

Did you hear what happened in Texas after a concealed carry permit bill passed ?

Crime went down.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
W_B - 31 May 2005 15:33 GMT
>> >> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>If he has no resources, then the taypayer pays the bill, right?

Nope, wrong again.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Rod Speed - 16 May 2005 21:18 GMT
>> Where does it say that the people are forced to work at Wall-Mart?

> No one is forced to work there, but medical care is kind of a God given right.

There is no 'god' and there certainly aint no
'God given right' to have the employer pay for that.

> In the case of the Wal-Mart/Medical Assistance
> folks, society, or more precisely the taxpayers of our
>