Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / April 2005
Root Canal work done when not needed?
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wildatom@hotmail.com - 25 Apr 2005 23:35 GMT Recently my wife had a root canal done which has been completed. The question is we just switched dentist and after they reviewed the xray's from the previous dentist they stated that root canals were never needed. So, I decided to contact another dentist in the area and made an appointment for my wife, she went and showed the xrays, and this dentist said from the xrays the work was defiantly not needed. Well $$$$ later what can I do now? Should I contact the dentist whom said she needed the work and tell them this or should I contact a lawyer?
Thanks,
Not Happy.
Joel M. Eichen - 26 Apr 2005 00:00 GMT > Recently my wife had a root canal done which has been completed. > The question is we just switched dentist and after they reviewed the > xray's from the previous dentist they stated that root canals were > never needed. Sorry, the dentist could not possibly know that!
Joel
Joel M. Eichen DDS
>So, I decided to contact another dentist in the area and > made an appointment for my wife, she went and showed the xrays, and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Not Happy. Tony Bad - 26 Apr 2005 02:57 GMT Did dentist #2 and #3 have a crystal ball, tarot cards, ESP, a time machine????
Root canal therapy is often done to address conditions that simply cannot be seen on an x-ray...so there is no way they could have know if the root canal was or was not needed after the fact. There are most certainly cases where an x-ray will clearly show that root canal was needed, but the absence of such signs on an x-ray is NOT an indicator that the treatment was unnecessary. The early stages of endodontic pathology will often not show any signs on an x-ray.
I think you should go back to #2 and #3 dentist and ask them to explain exactly how they determined the root canal therapy wasn't needed. Let us know what they say. At this point, and based on what you say, I find THEIR opinions rather suspect.
T
> Recently my wife had a root canal done which has been completed. > The question is we just switched dentist and after they reviewed the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Not Happy. carabelli - 26 Apr 2005 03:32 GMT > Did dentist #2 and #3 have a crystal ball, tarot cards, ESP, a time > machine???? Jackson Square NOLA diagnostic dentistry IMHO
carabelli
W_B - 26 Apr 2005 17:00 GMT >> Did dentist #2 and #3 have a crystal ball, tarot cards, ESP, a time >> machine???? > >Jackson Square NOLA diagnostic dentistry IMHO > >carabelli Marie LaVeaux.... --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Joel M. Eichen - 26 Apr 2005 10:43 GMT > Did dentist #2 and #3 have a crystal ball, tarot cards, ESP, a time > machine???? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > unnecessary. The early stages of endodontic pathology will often not show > any signs on an x-ray. REPLY
Reminding folks about the UCCI clause that mentions the need to DOCUMENT the diagnosis in those cases. UCCI took a chargeback against a colleague/friend whose records were not complete in that regard.
Joel
> I think you should go back to #2 and #3 dentist and ask them to explain > exactly how they determined the root canal therapy wasn't needed. Let us > know what they say. At this point, and based on what you say, I find THEIR > opinions rather suspect. I agree. -- JOEL
> T > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > > > Not Happy. wildatom@hotmail.com - 26 Apr 2005 12:57 GMT Perfect, just what I wanted to hear. See there wasn't really any pain with the tooth, and the dentist (who did the root canal) based the entire "needed root canal" from the xrays. They said the decay was inside the tooth and since the two teeth were so close together it could only be seen with an xray. Thanks for helping me prove my point. So what do I do now? That's the only question I have, just answer it.
Steven Fawks - 26 Apr 2005 13:56 GMT This is just "he said", "they said" so far. Saying, "I don't *think* that tooth would have needed a root canal" is one thing. Saying, "It is very doubtful that a root canal was needed" would even be possible. Saying, "That tooth *did not* need a root canal" is very rarely possible.
It's hard to imagine someone out there doing root canals when they know they aren't needed. If a dentist wanted to overtreat to increase revenues, it would be much easier to just overdiagnose decay and push crowns, bleaching, and veneers.
What do you do? Find a dentist you trust and move on with your lives. Maybe you were ripped off. Maybe the next guys just want to look good to get new patients. Maybe they just disagree. This isn't like she lost a kidney. There is a chance that the first dentist was right and certainly a good possibility that he can't be proven wrong. You could contact the local dental society and ask about peer review. You could contact an attorney, but this doesn't sound like a case one would like to take.
We've all been lied to, oversold, scammed, robbed, and abused sometime in our lives. When it happens (or you think it happens) you feel violated and usually get mad. This leads to wondering how to get revenge upon who just took advantage of you. Most of the time you can't and living with all of the anger and hate further damages you body and soul.
JME, Fawks
> Perfect, just what I wanted to hear. See there wasn't really any pain > with the tooth, and the dentist (who did the root canal) based the > entire "needed root canal" from the xrays. They said the decay was > inside the tooth and since the two teeth were so close together it > could only be seen with an xray. Thanks for helping me prove my point. > So what do I do now? That's the only question I have, just answer it. Joel M. Eichen - 26 Apr 2005 18:16 GMT Excellent comments.....
Joel
> This is just "he said", "they said" so far. Saying, "I don't *think* > that tooth would have needed a root canal" is one thing. Saying, "It [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > could only be seen with an xray. Thanks for helping me prove my point. > > So what do I do now? That's the only question I have, just answer it. Joel M. Eichen - 26 Apr 2005 18:15 GMT Why not post the x-ray here so you can get independent verification?
Joel
Its the age of the internet.
> Perfect, just what I wanted to hear. See there wasn't really any pain > with the tooth, and the dentist (who did the root canal) based the > entire "needed root canal" from the xrays. They said the decay was > inside the tooth and since the two teeth were so close together it > could only be seen with an xray. Thanks for helping me prove my point. > So what do I do now? That's the only question I have, just answer it. W_B - 26 Apr 2005 16:59 GMT Yep, agreed.
>Did dentist #2 and #3 have a crystal ball, tarot cards, ESP, a time >machine???? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> >> Not Happy. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
CWatters - 26 Apr 2005 08:04 GMT > Recently my wife had a root canal done which has been completed. > The question is we just switched dentist and after they reviewed the > xray's from the previous dentist they stated that root canals were > never needed. So, I decided to contact another dentist in the area and > made an appointment for my wife, she went and showed the xrays, and > this dentist said from the xrays the work was defiantly not needed. Well my wifes xray doesn't show any problems either but her tooth is split and it looks like she is heading for a root canal.
LadyLollipop - 26 Apr 2005 18:08 GMT >> Recently my wife had a root canal done which has been completed. >> The question is we just switched dentist and after they reviewed the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Well my wifes xray doesn't show any problems either but her tooth is split > and it looks like she is heading for a root canal. http://www.toothwisdom.net/r.root_canals.html
http://www.integratedhealthpractice.com/treatment.asp#Root
ll root cancel fillings have the potential to casue bad health. This is because, althought the nerve has been removed, bacteria still colonise in the minute tubules of a tooth. These bacteria produce toxins which enter the body causing potential harm. An area of residual infection which is left under the gum, usually following, but sometimes a long time after an extraction can cause problems. Symptoms can be coincided with the energetic links to the body as well as localised problems.
http://www.zip.com.au/~rgammal/RCTframeset.htm
http://www.ericdavisdental.com/root_canals.htm
http://www.whale.to/d/root2.html
http://www.drshankland.com/rootcanal.html
http://webpages.charter.net/kyarbrough/rootcanals.htm
http://www.dentistry-toothtruth.com/faq.htm
http://www.cfsn.com/maz/
http://cnorman.best.vwh.net/blazing/dental.html
http://rheumatic.org/teeth.htm
http://www.zip.com.au/~rgammal/root_therapies.htm
http://zap.intergate.ca/root.html
http://www.dentistryholistic.com/education.html
http://www.hugnet.com/Root_Canals.html
http://www.karlloren.com/ultrasound/p25.htm
http://www.hallvtox.dircon.co.uk/hallvt.html
Root Canals. A tooth has miles of tiny canals running through the root. A dead or root filled tooth will have bacteria in these canals. There is no way of removing the bacteria once they are in there.
http://www.toothwisdom.net/
Toxicity from Root Canals
The next subject to be discussed are root canals and their possible source of toxicity. Approximately twenty five million Americans undergo root canal therapy every year in an effort to prevent the loss of teeth that have abscessed. The root canal is the left portion of the tooth which houses the vital organs such as the nerve and blood vessels. The dentist endeavors to clean and sterilize this canal and fill it with a sterile, non toxic inert material. This usually renders this tooth serviceable and non painful; however, the entire inner hard core of the tooth is made of dentin which has several million dentinal tubules. These tubules allow the circulation of lymphatic type fluid to circulate from the vital organs of the root canal to the outside of the tooth. This is a viable circulatory phenomenon which has a purpose. It services the periodontal ligament as well as the sensory aspect of the nerve and blood centers in the root canal. If the body chemistry is healthy, the flow of lymphatic fluid is from the root canal to the outside of the tooth. This creates an irrigation for the tooth and usually prevents the accumulation of plaque to form. When the body chemistry is not healthy, then the circulation is from the outside of the tooth to the inner root canal. This allows for no irrigation, but rather an accumulation of plaque to form. There are many more reasons for maintaining the integrity of the circulation in the dentinal tubules. Root canal therapy completely destroys this integrity, and what happens to the non-circulating fluid in these tubules? This fluid as it ages becomes stagnant and becomes a toxic substance. This porous structure now becomes a septic mass emanating poisons into the body. Is this what you want? Mercury amalgams are said to be the caskets of the body. Root canals are said to be the cadavers of the body.
I do not recommend root canals for anyone. Each individual has a right to their decisions. Many people simply do not wish to lose a member of their body. I respect this, and I always discuss the consequences.
The next area of discussion is whether the root canal filling actually sterilizes the apical end of the tooth. There are so many lateral canals at the root end of the tooth where bacteria can harbor that it is unlikely that a complete aseptic condition exists. This, however, is a debateable subject. Again, the complete acceptance of root canal therapy as a viable substitution for extraction is completely and whole heartedly supported by organized dentistry. You are in violation of the code of ethics if you speak out against root canal therapy. When I was a practicing dentist, I always let the patient make that decision after explaining all pros and cons.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
>California Judge Approves Landmark Warning on Mercury Use in Dentistry.
>(San Francisco, CA) - For the first time anywhere, dentists will be >required to post a warning about the dangers of mercury in their dental >fillings. A California Superior court judge finalized the language for >the warning to be posted in dentists' offices here today.
>The warning will read as follows:
>Notice to Patients, Proposition 65:
>Warning on dental amalgams, used in many dental fillings, causes exposure >to mercury, a chemical known to the state of California to cause birth >defects or other reproductive harm.
>Root canal treatments and restorations including fillings, crowns and >bridges, use chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer.
>The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has studied the situation and >approved for use all dental restorative materials.
>Consult your dentist to determine which materials are appropriate for your >treatment.
>The exact language of the warning was argued and then finalized before >Superior Court Judge James A. Robertson II between the California Dental [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >mercury dental fillings and root canals. The agreement also allows non-CDA >dentists to opt in to the agreement and post the warning.
>The warning is the result of a lawsuit filed by The Law Offices of Shawn >Khorrami on behalf of As You Sow, a not-for-profit foundation dedicated to >advocacy and activism in the public interest.
>"This is the first admission by organized dentistry that amalgams pose a >potential health risk," says Shawn Khorrami, lead attorney. "The only >problem is that it's about 100 years too late."
>This California consent judgment follows on the heels of recent lawsuits >filed in Georgia, Texas, Ohio and Los Angeles, California charging that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >risks to certain users. Mercury, a highly toxic substance, is the most >widely used substance in dental fillings today.
>The use of mercury-based thimerosal in vaccines also has been the source >of the recent controversy in the Homeland Security legislation.
>Khorrami filed the lawsuit against Roger Fieldman D.D.S., Inc., the >Citadel Dental Group, Inc. dental offices, dental laboratories and >private dental schools and training programs with more than nine >employees. The suit won the enforcement of Proposition 65, Safe Drinking >Water and Toxics Enforcement Act [Health & Safety Code § 25249.6].
>Proposition 65 requires that a clear and reasonable warning be provided to >persons prior to their exposure to a chemical known to cause cancer or >reproductive harm. This statute lists mercury, contained in dental >amalgam, as a substance that can cause reproductive toxicity. The lawsuit >was based on the absence of warnings to patients treated with amalgam >restorative materials in dental offices.
>The judgment on Proposition 65 mandates that all dental offices with more >than nine employees provide warnings on the dangers of Mercury dental >fillings to patients. Those in non-compliance could incur a fine of up to >$2,500 per day.
>Press may contact: Jackie Gladfelter at 650-218-1856 or D. Infusino at >415-225-7970; call Attorney Shawn Khorrami at 818-947-5111.
>### LL/Jan
Joel M. Eichen - 26 Apr 2005 18:17 GMT REPLY
I was wondering ...... could root canals be causin' UNANSWERED!!! health !!! problems ...? "*IF* it is, then whot next?
Joel
CWatters - 26 Apr 2005 22:34 GMT > > Well my wifes xray doesn't show any problems either but her tooth is split > > and it looks like she is heading for a root canal. > > http://www.toothwisdom.net/r.root_canals.html Yes thanks for that waste of bandwidth. I know what a root canal is because I've had one of my own for 7 years and jolly glad I had it done.
LadyLollipop - 27 Apr 2005 02:06 GMT >> > Well my wifes xray doesn't show any problems either but her tooth is > split [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > because > I've had one of my own for 7 years and jolly glad I had it done. It wasn't a waste and who knows if you will stay jolly???
Certainly others have NOT!
http://webpages.charter.net/kyarbrough/rootcanalemails.htm
LL/Jan
CWatters - 27 Apr 2005 08:34 GMT > Certainly others have NOT! > > http://webpages.charter.net/kyarbrough/rootcanalemails.htm Well the very first story on that page you quote is an example of what NOT to do...
He had an infected tooth and opted for a temporary patch which he left to sit for a year until it got reinfected. He never did have a proper root canal job so he's hardly able to complain.
I'm not saying they are always perfect. We're talking about surgery in one of the most unclean parts of the body after all.
Joel M. Eichen - 27 Apr 2005 11:02 GMT > >> > Well my wifes xray doesn't show any problems either but her tooth is > > split [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > - I do not get it. What is a root canalc anal e-mail?
Joel M. Eichen - 27 Apr 2005 12:16 GMT > > >> > Well my wifes xray doesn't show any problems either but her tooth is > > > split [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > I do not get it. What is a root canalc anal e-mail? Got carried away ......
CORRECTION:
I do not get it. What is a rootc anal e-mail?
NOYB - 27 Apr 2005 13:31 GMT >> > >> > Well my wifes xray doesn't show any problems either but her tooth > is [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > I do not get it. What is a rootc anal e-mail? Rootc? I have a RootZX. I wonder if they're related? Mine's not anal however.
LadyLollipop - 27 Apr 2005 19:29 GMT >>> > >> > Well my wifes xray doesn't show any problems either but her tooth >> is [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>> >>> I do not get it. What is a root canalc anal e-mail? ROTFLOL.
Why am I not surprised????
>> Got carried away ...... CORRECTION:
BEEN carried away.
Peter Bowditch - 28 Apr 2005 05:32 GMT >> > >> > Well my wifes xray doesn't show any problems either but her tooth >is [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > I do not get it. What is a rootc anal e-mail? Well, down here in Australia a "root" is a copulation. I suppose a root canal email would be a message about an assignation down by the water course. I will stay well away from "rootc anal".
 Signature Peter Bowditch The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Joel M. Eichen - 28 Apr 2005 11:44 GMT Peter, I did not realize you are "down under" as we say.
I am always fascinated by photos of Australia. Its a regular place kinda like here but perhaps better. I was always wondering though, does the water really go down the drain counterclockwise or something?
Joel
"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message > >
> Well, down here in Australia a "root" is a copulation. I suppose a > root canal email would be a message about an assignation down by the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > http://www.acahf.org.au > To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com carabelli - 28 Apr 2005 13:02 GMT > Peter, I did not realize you are "down under" as we say. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Joel Of course it does (Coriolis effect). and if you E-mail a jpeg to him it will be upsidedown when he opens it.
carabelli
Joel M. Eichen - 28 Apr 2005 13:59 GMT Coriolis effect
http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/fw/crls.rxml
Joel
> > Peter, I did not realize you are "down under" as we say. > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > carabelli carabelli - 28 Apr 2005 14:45 GMT > Coriolis effect > > http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/fw/crls.rxml > > Joel Well, you can learn something every day.
"If you had an extremely large sink (as in, say, the size of a hot tub) with no imperfections, and if the water had been carefully kept still and protected from air currents for a day or so, and if the drain were very small, and if the act of removing the plug were done in such a way as to prevent any influence on the water's direction, then you could reliably expect counterclockwise drainage in the northern hemisphere due to the Coriolis force. In fact, just such an experiment was performed successfully in 1962 at M.I.T. But under ordinary circumstances, regardless of your location on the planet, the water will go down the drain pretty much however it wants to."
I still think I'm right about the jpegs though.
carabelli
W_B - 28 Apr 2005 17:31 GMT >I still think I'm right about the jpegs though. > >carabelli Gives a whole new meaning to "bottoms up" , eh ? --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
NOYB - 26 Apr 2005 14:32 GMT > Recently my wife had a root canal done which has been completed. > The question is we just switched dentist and after they reviewed the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > said she needed the work and tell them this or should I contact a > lawyer? How can a dentist tell by just looking at an x-ray that a root canal is "defiantly (definitely) not needed"?
Did the 2 other dentists do thermal testing on the tooth before the root canal? Did they test for percussion sensitivity?
wildatom@hotmail.com - 26 Apr 2005 16:18 GMT > Did the 2 other dentists do thermal testing on the tooth before the root > canal? Did they test for percussion sensitivity? The other 2 dentists were contacted after the work was already done. As I stated the dentist who did the work said according to the x-rays she needed the root canals done.
> What do you do? Find a dentist you trust and move on with your lives.
> Maybe you were ripped off. Maybe the next guys just want to look good
> to get new patients. Maybe they just disagree. This isn't like she > lost a kidney. There is a chance that the first dentist was right and
> certainly a good possibility that he can't be proven wrong. You could
> contact the local dental society and ask about peer review. You could
> contact an attorney, but this doesn't sound like a case one would like
> to take Sounds like this is the only sensible route to take now, we've found a dentist that was recommended to us by a friend, and were moving on. You have a good point; guess I'll just mark it up to experience. I guess I could write the BBB but might be a waste of time also. Guess I put way to much trust in one dentist, think I'll get a second opinion next time. Lesson Learned.
carabelli - 26 Apr 2005 16:39 GMT > > Did the 2 other dentists do thermal testing on the tooth before the > root [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I stated the dentist who did the work said according to the x-rays she > needed the root canals done. How about posting the x-ray?
carabelli
Joel M. Eichen - 26 Apr 2005 18:18 GMT I agree... post away!
Joel
> > > Did the 2 other dentists do thermal testing on the tooth before the > > root [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > carabelli Dr Steve - 26 Apr 2005 17:08 GMT Wait a minute,,,,,,, you are judging the first dentist unfairly. There is absolutely no way on this Earth to say a RCT was not needed by looking at an x-ray image after the fact. There is more to diagnosis than looking at images. The 2nd and 3rd dentists are being deceitful if they claim to be able to tell whether or not RCT was needed after the fact, by looking at x-ray images.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
>> Did the 2 other dentists do thermal testing on the tooth before the > root [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > to much trust in one dentist, think I'll get a second opinion next > time. Lesson Learned. Joel M. Eichen - 26 Apr 2005 18:19 GMT > Wait a minute,,,,,,, you are judging the first dentist unfairly. There is > absolutely no way on this Earth to say a RCT was not needed by looking at an > x-ray image after the fact. There is more to diagnosis than looking at > images. Besides, unless the 2nd doctor has the pre-op x-ray, what's to see?
Joel
The 2nd and 3rd dentists are being deceitful if they claim to be
> able to tell whether or not RCT was needed after the fact, by looking at > x-ray images. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > to much trust in one dentist, think I'll get a second opinion next > > time. Lesson Learned. Dr Steve - 26 Apr 2005 20:34 GMT Even if he/she had the pre-op images, not all pulpal pathology is visible on radiographs.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
> >> Wait a minute,,,,,,, you are judging the first dentist unfairly. There [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >> > to much trust in one dentist, think I'll get a second opinion next >> > time. Lesson Learned. Joel M. Eichen - 26 Apr 2005 21:55 GMT > Even if he/she had the pre-op images, not all pulpal pathology is visible on > radiographs. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Troy, Michigan, USA > .................................................... True, very true ,,, it a judgement call. Anyone who is NOT the dentist sitting right there can ever second guess something like this.
Believe me patients ask, but I always tell them, that's looking in the rear view mirror which won't help anyone.
Let's see what is doing RIGHT NOW and look into the future.
NOW advice at SMD is slightly different. These are opinions about how dentistry can be practiced, not what was specifically done to this tooth or that tooth.
Joel
> This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. > Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > >> > to much trust in one dentist, think I'll get a second opinion next > >> > time. Lesson Learned. W_B - 28 Apr 2005 17:07 GMT >Even if he/she had the pre-op images, not all pulpal pathology is visible on >radiographs. Exactamundo... --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
LadyLollipop - 28 Apr 2005 19:43 GMT >>Even if he/she had the pre-op images, not all pulpal pathology is visible >>on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Re: Root Canal work done when not needed?
Steven Fawks - 27 Apr 2005 13:55 GMT Contacting the BBB or Peer Review wouldn't hurt. If this dentist has a record of complaints, it will be one more on the list and might help in the long run. If no one has ever complained before, this wouldn't cause a lot of grief for anyone either.
Fawks
I guess I
> could write the BBB but might be a waste of time also. Joel M. Eichen - 26 Apr 2005 18:18 GMT > > Recently my wife had a root canal done which has been completed. > > The question is we just switched dentist and after they reviewed the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Did the 2 other dentists do thermal testing on the tooth before the root > canal? Did they test for percussion sensitivity? #3 Did the decay undermine the cusps and encroach upon the nerve?
#4
#5
#6
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