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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / May 2005Sargenti paste
I just found out that this material was used on a root canal in my upper jaw 5 years ago. Since that time I developed osteomyelitis in that same area and sinus problems. I do not have that tooth anymore. I have lost a good part of my upper jaw. Can anyone tell me about this material. BTW, the dentist that used this wrote in my records "RC-2W." When asked what it was a few years later he told me he didn't remember. Thanks How did you document that Sargenti paste was used? This is a source of ongoing discussions elsewhere. The main problem, it appears, (allegedly) is that Sargenti contains paraformaldehyde which is classified a drug or device by the FDA. In those cases FDA insists on safety studies to be provided by the manufacturer. This is why no one "manufactures" Sargenti Paste in the US. Some pharmacists compound it, but the product itself is not manufactured in the US. That said, there are two types of use for Sargenti. Sargenti's original technique of failing to shape the root canal space has been largely discredited. However, some dentists and endodontists will properly clean and shape the root canal space, fit with gutta percha but cement with Sargenti Paste. This is the "grey area" of all healing arts. They believe, and offer proof that the root canal treatments are more successful than by using more standard root canal filling materials. JOEL Joel M. Eichen DDS > I just found out that this material was used on a root canal in my > upper jaw 5 years ago. Since that time I developed osteomyelitis in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks >This is the "grey area" of all healing arts. They believe, and offer proof >that the root canal treatments are more successful than by using more [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Joel M. Eichen DDS My endodontist friend won't use that crap. AH-26 either. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com This same dentist also used AH-26 on another tooth that he did a root canal on. What is it? >>This is the "grey area" of all healing arts. They believe, and offer proof >>that the root canal treatments are more successful than by using more [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > My endodontist friend won't use that crap. > AH-26 either. No AH-26? What do you use? >>>This is the "grey area" of all healing arts. They believe, and offer proof >>>that the root canal treatments are more successful than by using more [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >No AH-26? What do you use? Grossman's -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Louie The Root! Believe it or not, he was my instructor! Dr. L. Grossman, class of 1924! Joel > >>>This is the "grey area" of all healing arts. They believe, and offer proof > >>>that the root canal treatments are more successful than by using more [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Some background comments ...... SARGENTI Paraformaldehyde ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Anytime there is formaldehyde in a preparation, you are running afoul of the FDA. Eugenol, ok, Ca(OH)2 okay, parafomadehyde, no. The old "no file" Sargenti technique often extruded N2 (Sargenti paste) way beyond the apex. This is always no good. The newer technique without extruding past the apex might be okay, except for the paraformaldehyde issue above. There is no proof of harm, but in a lawsuit, when two experts clash, it really does not matter. The jury hears that the dentist was using some UNREGULATED preparation, that the FDA has ordered CEASE AND DESIST by the way, and you may lose the case. Various malpractice carriers now ask, "Hey dude. You be usin' Sargenti?" before giving you your malpractice coverage. There was a recent settlement where some poor lady lost her jaw to actinomycosis and there was a $2 million settlement. Without Sargenti, that is, practicing according to the standard of care, the result might have been different. Joel Joel344 View Public Profile Send a private message to Joel344 Send email to Joel344 Find all posts by Joel344 Add Joel344 to Your Buddy List #7 10-29-2004, 01:58 PM shadlewis Dentist Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 299 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by rat I wish I knew enough about the material to discuss it. I wish Alvin was here. go get him! I can't shadlewis View Public Profile Send a private message to shadlewis Send email to shadlewis Find all posts by shadlewis Add shadlewis to Your Buddy List #6 10-29-2004, 01:57 PM rat Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 92 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wish I knew enough about the material to discuss it. I wish Alvin was here. rat View Public Profile Send a private message to rat Send email to rat Find all posts by rat Add rat to Your Buddy List #5 10-29-2004, 05:29 AM miketrout Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: augusta, ga Posts: 7 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rat, What specifically about the material makes it desirable in light of the potential issues? Can you comment a bit in terms of risk/benefit ratio compared to other sealers? Let's assume good debridement/instrumentation; working length management; and keeping the sealer inside the canal.... Regards, Mike Quote: Originally Posted by rat Mike, I first learned that dentists were still using sergenti N2 when I attended Joe Steven's Kisco seminar (great one). I have met hundreds of Dentists using it. If it got FDA approval I would not shut up about it probably. miketrout View Public Profile Send a private message to miketrout Find all posts by miketrout Add miketrout to Your Buddy List #4 10-29-2004, 02:37 AM rat Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 92 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike, I first learned that dentists were still using sergenti N2 when I attended Joe Steven's Kisco seminar (great one). I have met hundreds of Dentists using it. If it got FDA approval I would not shut up about it probably. rat View Public Profile Send a private message to rat Send email to rat Find all posts by rat Add rat to Your Buddy List #3 10-27-2004, 04:51 PM miketrout Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: augusta, ga Posts: 7 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Barry....Do you mind if I ask why you no longer use it? Interestingly, we just covered the classic lit on obturation in my endo program. Sargenti pastes were briefly mentioned; but, we mostly just blew right on by the topic. Mark...do you still use it? General questions....are the results so good that it is worth the potential legal issues? By results, I mean....patient comfort, long-term success, resolution of periapical lesions, etc....Would you go back to using it if the FDA ever approves it? How risky/toxic is it to use? I worked with a dentist when I first graduated who used it all the time. He was always having to order the stuff by prescription from some little mom and pop pharmacy somewhere because he couldn't get it locally. I saw a lot of long-standing periapical lesions in his patients...most of them were without symptoms. I know for a fact that he was inadequately debriding the canals...which we all know is crucial regardless of the obturating material. His only criteria for success was lack of symptoms. My observations there along with the public "sargenti taboo" campaign make me skeptical. What say you with some experience? Mike Quote: Originally Posted by barry1817@aol.com I had used sargenti paste in the past with very good results. Having had an instructor mention that the secret to a successful root canal is the cleaning and shaping, and if that was done correctly, one could use sterile bird poop to fill it, sargenti is definitely better than sterile bird poop. Like most things if done right it can be successful, but don't you love the examples where the patient is harmed because the paste is so far out of the tooth. If gutta percha was done the same way would they be saying it was the material or the operator. Barry1817@aol.com miketrout View Public Profile Send a private message to miketrout Find all posts by miketrout Add miketrout to Your Buddy List #2 10-27-2004, 04:32 PM > I just found out that this material was used on a root canal in my > upper jaw 5 years ago. Since that time I developed osteomyelitis in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thanks Thanks so much for the information. If this stuff is not approved and is known to cause these problems, why is it used. My dentist that used it was very evasive about it, so I am sure he knew of the problems. > Thanks so much for the information. > > If this stuff is not approved and is known to cause these problems, why > is it used. REPLY Well there are doctors, such as one well known proponent in my area that love Sargenti paste and claim it is the ticket for 100% root canal therapy! He may be right about that. But I would hesitate to introduce paraformadehyde into any human being's tissues. That said, off-label use is standard fare in medicine and dentistry. With "off-label" you are on your own so to say. Various denal malpractice insurance companies ask on their application, "Do you ever use Sargenti paste?" This might be like an insurance company wanting to know if you smoke! > My dentist that used it was very evasive about it, so I am sure he knew > of the problems. Most likely so. Joel I found out that my dentist that used this is a member of the American Endodontic Society. http://www.aesoc.com/index.htm He must have known. > I found out that my dentist that used this is a member of the American > Endodontic Society. > > http://www.aesoc.com/index.htm > > He must have known. YUP, must have ........ Joel >I found out that my dentist that used this is a member of the American >Endodontic Society. > >http://www.aesoc.com/index.htm > >He must have known. Some say that it is a legitimate difference of professional opinion. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com If any one of them had to live one day with what I have lived with for four years, they would never use that stuff again. I am living proof why this material should never be used. I know I will never be the same. I also found out the dentist that used this on me is a so-called holistic dentist. >I also found out the dentist that used this on me is a so-called > holistic dentist. Hmmmmmmmm! > >I also found out the dentist that used this on me is a so-called > > holistic dentist. > > Hmmmmmmmm! Sargenti contains paraformadehyde which the FDA claims should not be introduced into the human body. Joel >>>I also found out the dentist that used this on me is a so-called >>>holistic dentist. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Joel I've heard it said that the FDA (as well as all of organized medicine and dentistry) lies. ;-) Fawks > >I also found out the dentist that used this on me is a so-called > > holistic dentist. > > Hmmmmmmmm! Is "holistic" a synonym for "holy"?  Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://www.fluoride-history.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- This is one point where I am confused. Do holistic dentists believe in RCT or not? Do they use gutta percha or Sargenti paste? Are they trying to treat systemic conditions? Do they sell vitamins for profit? Do they rely on kinesthesia to treat TM disorders? Do they prescribe homeopathic remedies? Or, do they just stop using dental amalgam? Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... >> >> >I also found out the dentist that used this on me is a so-called [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Is "holistic" a synonym for "holy"? > This is one point where I am confused. Do holistic dentists believe in RCT > or not? Do they use gutta percha or Sargenti paste? Are they trying to > treat systemic conditions? Do they sell vitamins for profit? Do they rely > on kinesthesia to treat TM disorders? Do they prescribe homeopathic > remedies? Or, do they just stop using dental amalgam? Different hole. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 I know some of them and heard at congresses what they do and what they talk about. Connections of teeth to specific organs, EAV, and other stuff I have no clue about. Generally speaking, with all due respect, I have the impression that they represent the old battle between physicians and dentists in the 19th and early 20th century. Teeth are part of the system and systemic conditions might reflect dental troubles. As most dentists have no extensive medical education nowadays, the missing knowledge is bridged (in the holistic specialty) by lay-medical alternative wisdom ("Heilpraktiker"-Level) - just my personal impression, of course. Peter ---------------------------- > This is one point where I am confused. Do holistic dentists believe in RCT > or not? Do they use gutta percha or Sargenti paste? Are they trying to > treat systemic conditions? Do they sell vitamins for profit? Do they rely > on kinesthesia to treat TM disorders? Do they prescribe homeopathic > remedies? Or, do they just stop using dental amalgam? Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://www.fluoride-history.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- > As most dentists have no extensive medical education >nowadays Where do you get this stuff from? In many of my classes for the first two years we sat alongside the med students. Same lectures. Same labs. Same exams. > > As most dentists have no extensive medical education >nowadays > > Where do you get this stuff from? In many of my classes for the first two > years we sat alongside the med students. Same lectures. Same labs. Same > exams. You said "first two years". I said "no extensive". Isn´t that an agreement? Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://www.fluoride-history.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- >> Where do you get this stuff from? In many of my classes for the first two >> years we sat alongside the med students. Same lectures. Same labs. Same >> exams. > >You said "first two years". I said "no extensive". Isn´t that an >agreement? Nope, two years in med/dent school is extensive ! You wouldn't believe the course load. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >> > As most dentists have no extensive medical education >nowadays >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You said "first two years". I said "no extensive". Isn´t that an > agreement? No. We specialized our medical background to the mouth after those two years...so of course our classes diverged from the med students. Oral pathology is a great example. ENT is the only medical specialty that has training to detect and identify oral pathology as well as a dentist can. I'm flabbergasted by the things internists can't identify in the mouth or on the face (exostoses, candidal infections, lymphadenopathies resulting from odontogenic infections, shingles, etc.) >ENT is the only medical specialty that has >training to detect and identify oral pathology as well as a dentist can. I don't think that the ENTs are even close in oral path. They tend to concentrate on the pharynxs and upper trachea and esophagus. >I'm flabbergasted by the things internists can't identify in the mouth or on >the face (exostoses, candidal infections, lymphadenopathies resulting from >odontogenic infections, shingles, etc.) The dentist is the expert in oral pathology. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>As most dentists have no extensive medical education >nowadays >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You said "first two years". I said "no extensive". Isn´t that an > agreement? Most physicians don't have an extensive medical education nowadays either. That's why 85% in the US specialize. During my residency, I was happy if the ER physician was a surgeon--that generally meant we were only called for trauma where our expertise was needed. If an internal medicine resident was working the ER we were in trouble. If an anesthesiology resident was working the ER, we didn't get any sleep because of what we (the dental residents) had to mop up. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >As most dentists have no extensive medical education nowadays, Simply not true. > the >missing knowledge is bridged (in the holistic specialty) by lay-medical >alternative wisdom ("Heilpraktiker"-Level) If you say so, sounds like voodoo to me. >- just my personal >impression, of course. alrighty then. >Peter -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > This is one point where I am confused. Do holistic dentists believe in RCT > or not? Do they use gutta percha or Sargenti paste? As much as I hate to admit it, the dentist of SheWhoseNameMustNotBeMentioned has a web site which is very well done. He explains his treatment philosophy well and there is a section for dentists with technical advice as well. He states why a Biocalyx (Endocalyx) treatment is to be preferred to a standard Endo. I was impressed with the quality of communications skills, if not the actual philosophy. Unfortunately, I have not been able to re-locate that link. When I do, I will post it. Another option would be to have *someone* contact SWNMNBM and ask. That *someone* will not be me, however, as I believe that this... individual is only amoung us to make us waste our time, and as such, is a modern manifestation of Evil. OK, you can lock me up, now, but that's it. But wait: you may be the best placed to answer your own question: I thought you had a Wnole Earth dentist who practices not far from you. SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH >If any one of them had to live one day with what I have lived with for >four years, they would never use that stuff again. I am living proof [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I also found out the dentist that used this on me is a so-called >holistic dentist. Point --> set --> match. Sorry for your suffering. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >Thanks so much for the information. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >My dentist that used it was very evasive about it, so I am sure he knew >of the problems. Check out the American Association of Endodontists. www.aae.org -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com |
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