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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / April 2005

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is this TMJ?

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estea - 28 Mar 2005 22:49 GMT
I have no pain when lying down, only when waking/sitting in upright
position.  As soon as I get up in the morning (about 10 min. into day)
my jaw begins to ache terribly on one side.  Also, muscle relaxants
(which I occasionally take for muscle spasm in my back) greatly help
the pain in my jaw joint.

Any opinions?
Dr Steve - 28 Mar 2005 23:04 GMT
www.headachehope.com

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>I have no pain when lying down, only when waking/sitting in upright
> position.  As soon as I get up in the morning (about 10 min. into day)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Any opinions?
W_B - 28 Mar 2005 23:25 GMT
>I have no pain when lying down, only when waking/sitting in upright
>position.  As soon as I get up in the morning (about 10 min. into day)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Any opinions?

NTI

headacheprevention.com
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
estea - 29 Mar 2005 00:10 GMT
Can you recommend an excellent dentist in the Kansas City metro who
could provide this device for me?  I did a zipcode search and got a
jillion hits - I just want someone reputable with lots of experience.

thanks.
Dr Steve - 29 Mar 2005 01:23 GMT
How far out to Dr. Fawks or Dr. Huerter?

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

> Can you recommend an excellent dentist in the Kansas City metro who
> could provide this device for me?  I did a zipcode search and got a
> jillion hits - I just want someone reputable with lots of experience.
>
> thanks.
Joel M. Eichen - 29 Mar 2005 01:27 GMT
>How far out to Dr. Fawks or Dr. Huerter?

What do you mean, "How far out is Dr. Fawks or Dr. Huerter?"

Like groovy man, very far out.
Dr Steve - 29 Mar 2005 01:41 GMT
>>How far out to Dr. Fawks or Dr. Huerter?
>
> What do you mean, "How far out is Dr. Fawks or Dr. Huerter?"
>
> Like groovy man, very far out.

Keep on Truck'n ,,,, Man.
carabelli - 29 Mar 2005 03:43 GMT
>>How far out to Dr. Fawks or Dr. Huerter?
>
> What do you mean, "How far out is Dr. Fawks or Dr. Huerter?"
>
> Like groovy man, very far out.

Yeah, I'm totally there.  Let me know what part of the KC metro is
convenient for you and I'll try to come up with someone.  I'll charge a bit
more because I practice ortho only.

Don't even Joel....... (I'm smiling) - I can't check these things at regular
recall/cleaning visits.  When I do them, visits to recheck just aren't the
same for someone in general practice.  It is a visit only to check the
appliance and the extra visit is factored into the fee.  Besides that,
aren't all ortho's greedy.

Seriously, tell us where you live - I'm in the KC metro

carabelli
estea - 29 Mar 2005 03:58 GMT
I'm in Overland Park but can do anything in metro -
Brookside/Plaza/Olathe.  

thanks for your help!
carabelli - 29 Mar 2005 04:46 GMT
> I'm in Overland Park but can do anything in metro -
> Brookside/Plaza/Olathe.
>
> thanks for your help!

Who is you dentist now?
carabelli
carabelli - 29 Mar 2005 05:12 GMT
>> I'm in Overland Park but can do anything in metro -
>> Brookside/Plaza/Olathe.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Who is you dentist now?
> carabelli
Sorry, I should have added - feel free to email me privately.  Your dentist
may be making these too.  And it is possible that it's not indicated for you
also.  Hard to tell from here.

carabelli
estea - 29 Mar 2005 14:56 GMT
I am not happy with my current dentist.  Think he might have put on a
crown I didn't need and can't get him to grind it down now even though
my bite seems way off.  He only paper-tests the side of my mouth with
the crown, but the other side doesn't even touch together and I feel he
should test my entire bite.

He's in Lenexa but I don't feel comfy w/dissing him on here.  Mostly he
seems new, nice but inexperienced.

Ideally it'd be great to have a rec. for DDS who does the NTI but could
also give me a second op. on this crown issue (the TMJ pain predates
the crown but my bite is not helping the sitch).

thanks again for your time -

estea
carabelli - 29 Mar 2005 15:08 GMT
> I am not happy with my current dentist.  Think he might have put on a
> crown I didn't need and can't get him to grind it down now even though
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> estea

Tom Russell
Craig W. Herre
Robert G. Smith

There's some for starters

carabelli
Dr Steve - 29 Mar 2005 15:23 GMT
IF there is swelling in the joint or if there is muscle spasm, there is no
way to accurately determine how the teeth are supposed to touch.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>I am not happy with my current dentist.  Think he might have put on a
> crown I didn't need and can't get him to grind it down now even though
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> estea
Steven Fawks - 29 Mar 2005 15:32 GMT
I should have read further down the thread.  Dan can get you hooked up
with a good guy in your neighborhood.

When you do go, realize that it's almost impossible to ever get
"a perfect bite".  Even if you achieved perfection with occlusion,
it wouldn't prevent clenching.  Your teeth aren't meant to be locked
together in the first place.  Most patients adapt to the NTI quickly,
but it is important to put it in and wear it.

Let us know how things go.

JMO,
Fawks

> I am not happy with my current dentist.  Think he might have put on a
> crown I didn't need and can't get him to grind it down now even though
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> estea
estea - 29 Mar 2005 15:46 GMT
thanks so much for these recs - now fingers crossed that these guys are
in my insurance.  So Dr. Heurter is in PV but is strictly orthodontics,
correct?  too bad, I'm really close ; )

will check on this today, as the pain is pretty unbearable now - will
check back in w/progress (hopefully it will be progress).

estea
estea - 29 Mar 2005 15:59 GMT
aw shoot - only drs. huerter and fawks are in my BCBS network (and I'm
not prepared to drive to Richmond just yet!).

any other names you can send my way?
Steven Fawks - 29 Mar 2005 17:41 GMT
How much pain did you say you were in?

<VBG>
Fawks

> aw shoot - only drs. huerter and fawks are in my BCBS network (and I'm
> not prepared to drive to Richmond just yet!).
>
> any other names you can send my way?
The Webby - 29 Mar 2005 17:52 GMT
> How much pain did you say you were in?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> > any other names you can send my way?

I posted once to the thread a little while ago; it hasn't shown up on my
server yet.  I say *ditto* to Fawks' question.

Webby
(Maybe my posts aren't going out -- hmm.  Had this trouble last week too)
The Webby - 29 Mar 2005 17:56 GMT
In article
<nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-DAE09B.08524629032005@orngca-news04.soca
l.rr.com>,

> > How much pain did you say you were in?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Webby
> (Maybe my posts aren't going out -- hmm.  Had this trouble last week too)

This is what I posted at 8:03 AM but can't see here (yet):

From: The Webby <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam@san.rr.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
Subject: Re: is this TMJ?
Organization: The TMJ Iatroepidemic
User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.4 (PPC Mac OS X)
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 08:03:23 -0800
Message-ID:
<nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-08BC82.08032229032005@orngca-news03.socal
.rr.com>

In article <1112104584.031407.144160@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"estea" <teslaroo@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I am not happy with my current dentist.  Think he might have put on a
> crown I didn't need and can't get him to grind it down now even though
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> estea

Did you tell your current dentist that you had "TMJ pain" before the
dental work involving the crown was done?  If so, what did he say about
it?

Webby
"The TMJ Iatroepidemic"
published 1997

_________

Webby
estea - 29 Mar 2005 18:59 GMT
o you guys are very funny - yes, I'm in pain but that's a relative term
as I sit here surrounded by 3 kiddos under the age of 5 all delivered
w/out pain meds...

Thankfully I still had some darvocet from my OB for the last delivery
when a wee bit of my placenta was retained for about a week - now THAT
was pain ; )

Webby - I did tell dentist that I was having pain, but he found a
hairline crack (of course now I'm questioning this) in #30 and insisted
on a crown.  I am a dentist virgin except for cleanings and 2 fillings
(age 36) and should have done the guard first, but he said crown first,
then guard.  sigh.

If I could find a sitter I'd work my way out on 210 asap but alas can't
get in touch w/her today.

thanks anyway,

estea
Dr Steve - 29 Mar 2005 20:12 GMT
The crack is probably from clenching all night long when you sleep.  Go get
the NTI.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>o you guys are very funny - yes, I'm in pain but that's a relative term
> as I sit here surrounded by 3 kiddos under the age of 5 all delivered
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> estea
Steven Fawks - 29 Mar 2005 18:56 GMT
And if you're not prepared to drive, Dan will get you well.  Neither
one of us would likely do it for free though.  Dan might cost you a
little more than I, but you'd save a lot of time and gasoline.

Fawks

>>How much pain did you say you were in?
>>
>><VBG>
>>Fawks

> I posted once to the thread a little while ago; it hasn't shown up on my
> server yet.  I say *ditto* to Fawks' question.
>
> Webby
> (Maybe my posts aren't going out -- hmm.  Had this trouble last week too)
estea - 29 Mar 2005 19:02 GMT
And if you're not prepared to drive, Dan will get you well.  Neither
one of us would likely do it for free though.  Dan might cost you a
little more than I, but you'd save a lot of time and gasoline.

who wants a freebie?  I just want my insurance to kick in because I've
already spent $1300 on my teeth this year!  egads!
carabelli - 29 Mar 2005 20:17 GMT
> aw shoot - only drs. huerter and fawks are in my BCBS network (and I'm
> not prepared to drive to Richmond just yet!).
>
> any other names you can send my way?

post a link to the providers in your network,  I'll take a look.

carabelli
estea - 29 Mar 2005 20:31 GMT
you're a gem.

https://www.bcbskc.com/ProvDir/ASP/provsrch.asp

(can't narrow it down any more than that, I'm afraid)

- grateful estea
carabelli - 29 Mar 2005 21:11 GMT
> you're a gem.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>  - grateful estea

Oh, yes *that site*,  to slow to load on dialup here at work.  Try John
Cope, IIRC he uses NTI.  Or start calling and ask . There are lots of
dentists that use them around here not registed on NTI site.

carabelli
carabelli - 29 Mar 2005 21:16 GMT
Re: your e-mail.  Lets just leave it at - I would look elsewhere

carabelli
estea - 29 Mar 2005 21:53 GMT
thanks - I will.

estea
Steven Fawks - 30 Mar 2005 15:15 GMT
I learned a long time ago that life is divided up into priority levels
and dentistry is not on the top of everyones list.  There are also
different types and intensities of 'pain'.  I was most certainly
teasing.  With three youngsters at home, no wonder you clench <G>.

I looked at a few pages and I'm really not in touch with any of those
dentists.  Chuck Boring was in our class, but I have no idea about
his clinical skills or NTI use.  He seemed like a good person.

I'm probably biased, but it seems that a lot of suburban dental
practices have lost personal connections with their patients and spend
too much time on practice management styles and production.  "Every
new patient needs at least $5,000 of dental work" type of stuff.

I guess I'm getting old and cynical.

Fawks

> thanks - I will.
>
> estea
The Webby - 30 Mar 2005 18:08 GMT
> I learned a long time ago that life is divided up into priority levels
> and dentistry is not on the top of everyones list.  There are also
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> >
> > estea

This may seem like an off-topic reply, but bear with me because there is
a method to my madness (or so I'd like to think there is). ;-)

Last weekend there was an interesting article in my newspaper called
"Fully Engaged".  Here is the link to it, and I hope readers will take a
moment to *read* the article.

It begins with this:

Editor's note: The intimate moments that once were the glue of American
family life are disappearing amid job demands and nonstop activities.
Researchers examining the fragile family structure allowed The
Associated Press an exclusive look at video and data from four years of
observing 32 families. The AP also observed one family firsthand

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050326/news_lz1c26_family.html

I am most interested in readers' comments, especially those arrived at
by thinking outside the box and with "dentistry" in mind.

Webby
Bill - 31 Mar 2005 03:32 GMT
Fawks wrote:

I learned a long time ago that life is divided up into priority levels
and dentistry is not on the top of everyones list.  There are also
different types and intensities of 'pain'.  I was most certainly
teasing.  With three youngsters at home, no wonder you clench <G>.

I looked at a few pages and I'm really not in touch with any of those
dentists.  Chuck Boring was in our class, but I have no idea about
his clinical skills or NTI use.  He seemed like a good person.

I'm probably biased, but it seems that a lot of suburban dental
practices have lost personal connections with their patients and spend
too much time on practice management styles and production.  "Every
new patient needs at least $5,000 of dental work" type of stuff.

I guess I'm getting old and cynical.

Fawks

Naw, you're observant and aware. [Well, maybe old and cynical also, but
that's not the main point.  ;-) ]

A surprising number of practice management companies are pushing that
sort of thing on dentists all over the country.

- dentaldoc
carabelli - 31 Mar 2005 05:37 GMT
"Steven Fawks" <tuthjockey@earthlink.net> wrote ........

> I guess I'm getting old and cynical.
>
> Fawks

Nah, you just gained weight.

carabelli
Steven Fawks - 31 Mar 2005 13:29 GMT
I haven't actually gained much (since dental school), but it
is distributed differently.

;-(
Fawks

>>I guess I'm getting old and cynical.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> carabelli
Roy Brown - 31 Mar 2005 14:53 GMT
Blame it on gravity.

Signature

Roy
rem NADA to reply

| I haven't actually gained much (since dental school), but it
| is distributed differently.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
| >
| > carabelli
estea - 31 Mar 2005 18:19 GMT
update:

went to see Charles Kimes in OPKS this a.m.  really nice guy, good
office staff, good vibe.  Uses NTI - fabricates them in his office/lab,
btw and does quite a few (perhaps he should be on The List?).  He
immediately took care of the bite/crown problem - needed a little
ground off on outer edge.  Aaaaahhhhhhh.

as for the NTI, it appears my overbite is getting progressively worse,
which is what is causing the jaw/TMJ pain. He gives me the option of
running through a new NTI every year or so OR skipping the NTI entirely
and going straight to braces, more specifically invisalign.  I made
appt to go in next week for models but a quick call to my insurance
reveals since I am older than 19 no ortho is covered.  Not a dime.  oh
well.  Good bye kitchen remodel.

Guess I'll get a second opinion now...Prairie Village??
The Webby - 31 Mar 2005 18:51 GMT
> update:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Guess I'll get a second opinion now...Prairie Village??

estea, I am confused by your post.  Something seems off...

Webby
Joel M. Eichen - 31 Mar 2005 19:04 GMT
>> update:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>Webby

Webby, you are thinking of this case. This is different.

Joel

A Victim Vanishes


The woman’s name was Sante Kimes and thus far she had been arrested
and charged 14 times for crimes that ranged from shoplifting to
keeping slaves. There had been much, much more of course but she was
smart. Most of the time she hadn’t been caught.


Kenneth Kimes Jr. mugshot (NYPD)
Her son Kenny was already following in her footsteps. Just two months
before he had helped his mom steal some lipsticks from a discount
store in Miami, knocking down the store detective before being
arrested. Of course, the charges were reduced, bond was posted, and
they quickly left town. Who was going to put out an APB for such a
petty crime?


******************************************************


Carved stone face above the Silverman mansion door (Georgiana Havill)
The gray limestone mansion at 20 East 65th Street in New York City was
designed to ward off evil. The builder had put a carved stone face
above the double front door when it was constructed at the turn of the
20th century. The godlike sculpture was there for good luck. Wings
sprang from the head and its fierce mouth was open, snarling at all
who passed by. Legend said the god flew away at midnight in search of
bacchanalian revelry, returning each dawn to guard the entrance of the
great city house and its occupants within.

Today, on this morning of July 5, 1998, the great carved face had
failed to do its job.

On this Sunday after the most celebratory of American holidays, East
65th Street was silent. New York’s Central Park was a block in one
direction and Madison Avenue intersected the eastern end of the
street. The night before had been full of gala events. Gotham was
still sleeping.

A strange pair was taking advantage of the slumbering city. They
emerged from the mansion dragging a huge suitcase, bickering so loudly
that small birds flew away alarmed from their perch in the tree next
to the house. The woman making most of the noise had a voice that
grated, like a long fingernail scraping slowly across a blackboard.
The twenty-something young man with her was tall and muscular, nearly
handsome with his wavy hair. There was something about his eyes
though. He had a frightening stare when he looked towards you. Psycho
eyes. And nobody but nobody would have guessed that the older woman
was not only his mother, but also his lover and soul mate.

The woman giving orders had been pretty once. Some would say beautiful
since she had been mistaken many times for Elizabeth Taylor when she
was younger. But she had gotten soft and plump with age. Time had not
been kind and her black hair, usually covered by a wig, was flecked
with gray. She was not happy if someone learned her age was 65.

Her son was struggling with the suitcase and she barked at him to be
more careful. There was a reason for that. As he dragged the luggage
towards the stolen green Lincoln Town Car you could see that it was
leaking small, dark drops. They were small dots waiting to be
connected. Red dots. He was leaving a trail of blood behind him.

As the city slept off its holiday hangover, the man lifted the heavy
bag and heaved it into the cavernous trunk of the Lincoln. When he
slammed the lid, the woman again yelled at him for creating the noise
even though her own voice was much louder.


Sante Kimes mugshot (NYPD)
The woman’s name was Sante Kimes and thus far she had been arrested
and charged 14 times for crimes that ranged from shoplifting to
keeping slaves. There had been much, much more of course but she was
smart. Most of the time she hadn’t been caught.


Kenneth Kimes Jr. mugshot (NYPD)
Her son Kenny was already following in her footsteps. Just two months
before he had helped his mom steal some lipsticks from a discount
store in Miami, knocking down the store detective before being
arrested. Of course, the charges were reduced, bond was posted, and
they quickly left town. Who was going to put out an APB for such a
petty crime?


Irene Silverman (NYPD)
Just hours before, the mother and son had committed the ultimate
offense. The body inside the suitcase had been a lively 83-year-old
socialite named Irene Silverman who owned the East Side mansion and
leased out suites to those who could afford to pay the $6000-per-month
rent. Celebrities in town for a long stay--singer Chaka Khan and
pianist Peter Duchin were regulars--often made up the cast of paying
guests. The old dowager didn’t need the money. She simply liked
company. Her staff cleaned the small apartments. Their generous
employer had given the servants the holiday weekend off.

With everyone gone, Sante and Kenny had forced the old woman into
their suite where, after a bloody struggle, she was shot in the head
with a stun gun that had paralyzed her. Then Kenny had strangled Irene
with his own hands. After that she was wrapped in a shower curtain
that had been purchased just for the occasion and then trussed up with
duct tape.

Why kill an old woman? Well, when the dust cleared, Sante was planning
to tell the staff that her “dear friend” Irene had sold her the
mansion and would show them a bill of sale if necessary. Besides
murder, forgery was another specialty Sante thought she had mastered.
The servants would buy her tale, she thought, and Irene--well, that
Mrs. Silverman had gone off on a long European vacation would be her
tale.

But that was for tomorrow. Right now there was a body inside the trunk
of a stolen car that had to be made to disappear. Her son got behind
the wheel and the two sped down the block, turned onto Madison Avenue
and merged the Lincoln into an ever-present herd of yellow taxicabs.


CHAPTERS


1. A Victim Vanishes


2. Rags to Riches


3. Sante, Sandra, Sandy


4. High Plains Hustler


5. A Capital Caper


6. The Boy Slave


7. The Slave Girls


8. Journeys of Death


9. It's All Over


10. The Author


- Book Titles


- Court TV Coverage

 
 

<< Previous Chapter 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 -
The Webby - 31 Mar 2005 19:19 GMT
> >> update:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Joel

Something certainly was off there!!!
As for estea's post, I am anticipating the coming chapters as I did with
your post.

Webby

> A Victim Vanishes
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> above the double front door when it was constructed at the turn of the
> 20th century.

[clipped]
Joel M. Eichen - 31 Mar 2005 18:55 GMT
>update:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>reveals since I am older than 19 no ortho is covered.  Not a dime.  oh
>well.  Good bye kitchen remodel.

Better check with Carabelli (even though he
has been badmouthing me lately)......

Joel

>Guess I'll get a second opinion now...Prairie Village??
carabelli - 01 Apr 2005 02:29 GMT
"Joel M. Eichen" <joeleichen@yahoo.com> wrote ............

> Better check with Carabelli (even though he
> has been badmouthing me lately)......
>
> Joel
Everything I write about you is with a VBG on my face.  As Jan knows, we
all love you.

Lose the x-posts though.  I have a mother-in-law.  I have threatened before.
You will have a weekly shipment of newspaper clippings on your doorstep.

So when is the Hawaii trip??

carabelli
Dr Steve - 31 Mar 2005 19:28 GMT
Obviously the guy does NOT belong on the web-site.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

> update:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Guess I'll get a second opinion now...Prairie Village??
The Webby - 31 Mar 2005 19:41 GMT
Somethings "we" just "know" ... aren't we "smart"???  ;-)

Webby

> Obviously the guy does NOT belong on the web-site.
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> >
> > Guess I'll get a second opinion now...Prairie Village??
Dr Steve - 31 Mar 2005 20:49 GMT
"we" think so   :-)

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

> Somethings "we" just "know" ... aren't we "smart"???  ;-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>> >
>> > Guess I'll get a second opinion now...Prairie Village??
W_B - 31 Mar 2005 21:12 GMT
>"we" think so   :-)

or is it :

we *think* so...

?
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 02 Apr 2005 01:56 GMT
> >"we" think so   :-)
>
> or is it :
>
> we *think* so...

Why could not this be true?. Maybe Invisalign is a bit much to correct
the problem, but if the dude has a pathological overbite, he does need
treatment of _some_ sort.

I'm waiting to hear about what Big C has to say about this case.
SP

Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

carabelli - 01 Apr 2005 02:24 GMT
> update:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Guess I'll get a second opinion now...Prairie Village??

An overbite is not the end of the world.  The bite sometimes will change
once the NTI has let your biting muscles quit dictating where they think you
should bite.  You have a good doc, if he thinks you need an ortho referral
he will do it.  And he knows me also.

carabelli
Joel M. Eichen - 29 Mar 2005 23:23 GMT
>aw shoot - only drs. huerter and fawks are in my BCBS network (and I'm
>not prepared to drive to Richmond just yet!).
>
>any other names you can send my way?

Dr. Jan Drew is in my BS network .........
Joel M. Eichen - 29 Mar 2005 23:22 GMT
>thanks so much for these recs - now fingers crossed that these guys are
>in my insurance.  So Dr. Heurter is in PV but is strictly orthodontics,
>correct?  too bad, I'm really close ; )

Dan, you in PV?

>will check on this today, as the pain is pretty unbearable now - will
>check back in w/progress (hopefully it will be progress).
>
>estea
estea - 29 Mar 2005 23:27 GMT
what the ?
carabelli - 30 Mar 2005 00:45 GMT
> what the ?

That's one of the nicest things anyone has ever said after reading Joel's
posts for the first time.

carabelli ( Prairie Village, Joel)
Dr Steve - 30 Mar 2005 01:12 GMT
Think of Joel as a great guy with a very strange sense of humor.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................
.
......................

> what the ?
The Webby - 30 Mar 2005 05:37 GMT
> Think of Joel as a great guy with a very strange sense of humor.

... he has a sense of humor that drives those who have read his posts
for years and years to wonder ... and then, if one thinks long and hard
.. one realizes that the posts must be his ...

Webby
(who remembers much and forgets little)
carabelli - 30 Mar 2005 05:46 GMT
>> Think of Joel as a great guy with a very strange sense of humor.

Thanks a lot for giving Joel the *Strange Award*,  I really thought I would
have that hands down.  To be perfectly frank, I am hurt.  A pie would help
though.

> ... he has a sense of humor that drives those who have read his posts
> for years and years to wonder ... and then, if one thinks long and hard
> .. one realizes that the posts must be his ...
>
> Webby
> (who remembers much and forgets little)

The only explanation is that Joel has been reading Zippy comics with total
comprehension for the last 25 years.  Actually, he may have been writing
them.

carabelli

Hunter Thompson - RIP
Joel M. Eichen - 30 Mar 2005 12:47 GMT
You guys are welcome to add al lthe positive information about the
patient's condition ,,,,,,, but as I suspect, the therapy and the care
will be somewhat fuzzy.

I am more interested in discussing sicentific basis for our dental
care, but that seems to be a dead topic.

So carry on!

Joel

>>> Think of Joel as a great guy with a very strange sense of humor.
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Hunter Thompson - RIP
Dr Steve - 30 Mar 2005 13:34 GMT
>>> Think of Joel as a great guy with a very strange sense of humor.
>
> Thanks a lot for giving Joel the *Strange Award*,  I really thought I
> would have that hands down.  To be perfectly frank, I am hurt.  A pie
> would help though.

I'll keep that in mind.
Steven Fawks - 30 Mar 2005 17:43 GMT
Dan might not enjoy the type of pie (and delivery method) that
comes first to my mind. <G>

As far as 'strangeness', it's a very tough call.  Joel wins for shear
volume and is certainly unafraid to post the first inane sentiment
that pops into his head regardless of any connection to the
previous post.

His posts often make me smile, but they have never caused me to spray a
mouthful of Diet Coke all over my computer screen or close the door to
my private office to deaden the sounds of ROFLMAO, that have accompanied
some of Dan's messages.

So, for me, it's a split decision.

JMO,
Fawks

> Thanks a lot for giving Joel the *Strange Award*,  I really thought I would
> have that hands down.  To be perfectly frank, I am hurt.  A pie would help
> though.

> The only explanation is that Joel has been reading Zippy comics with total
> comprehension for the last 25 years.  Actually, he may have been writing
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Hunter Thompson - RIP
StovePipe - 30 Mar 2005 18:27 GMT
> His posts often make me smile, but they have never caused me to spray a
> mouthful of Diet Coke all over my computer screen or close the door to
> my private office to deaden the sounds of ROFLMAO, that have accompanied
> some of Dan's messages.

... Have you any IDEA how much SALT there is in them there diet
drinks???

If you have a HBP problem, this will certainly not help.
<SP sticks his tongue out at the SMD>
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

Joel M. Eichen - 29 Mar 2005 23:21 GMT
>I am not happy with my current dentist.  Think he might have put on a
>crown I didn't need and can't get him to grind it down now even though
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>He's in Lenexa but I don't feel comfy w/dissing him on here.  Mostly he
>seems new, nice but inexperienced.

I agree. We have six or seven dentists who post regularly from Lenexa.

Joel

>Ideally it'd be great to have a rec. for DDS who does the NTI but could
>also give me a second op. on this crown issue (the TMJ pain predates
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>estea
Joel M. Eichen - 29 Mar 2005 23:22 GMT
>Ideally it'd be great to have a rec. for DDS who does the NTI but could

I do not have one that does the NTI, but a have a few that can do the
Charleston.

Joel

>also give me a second op. on this crown issue (the TMJ pain predates
>the crown but my bite is not helping the sitch).
Steven Fawks - 29 Mar 2005 15:20 GMT
Dan is in Overland Park, Ed Kendrick is in Kansas City proper, and I'm
out in Richmond (45 miles east on 210).

:-)
Fawks

> Can you recommend an excellent dentist in the Kansas City metro who
> could provide this device for me?  I did a zipcode search and got a
> jillion hits - I just want someone reputable with lots of experience.
>
> thanks.
Joel M. Eichen - 30 Mar 2005 12:50 GMT
>Can you recommend an excellent dentist in the Kansas City metro who
>could provide this device for me?  I did a zipcode search and got a
>jillion hits - I just want someone reputable with lots of experience.
>
>thanks.

Here is why you get short shrift.

What we have going on here is a patient who is not interested in
finding a good dentist (a good thing) but is interested in finding
someone "who can provide this device for me."

Doesn't anyone have a problem with that?

POINT TWO:

How much experience does one require to fabricate the NTI? If its a
lot then why are the dental assistants doing it?

Joel
Steven Fawks - 30 Mar 2005 19:04 GMT
For this problem, finding a 'good dentist' who does not use NTI's would
be like finding a good car mechanic who does not have the proper tools
to do work on your car.

Without the right 'tools', it doesn't matter how skilled the dentist.
The trick is to find someone who is a 'good dentist' *and* uses NTI's.

As far as experience to fabricate an NTI, you don't need much for the
*garden variety" clencher.  I started with a basic sheet of instructions
and 5 NTI's.  I first made one for myself.  Then for one assistant
and my receptionist.  Then I attended a workshop presented by Dr. Boyd.

That was five years ago.

Fawks

> Here is why you get short shrift.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Joel
Dr Steve - 30 Mar 2005 20:20 GMT
I mostly agree, but would modify the comparison to a mechanic who does not
have the equipment to balance tires or align front ends.  He chooses not to
perform that service and refers it to another shop nearby.  If you want
alignment and balancing to eliminate the wobbling and vibrations when
driving, you have to go elsewhere.  That does not mean the first mechanic
was not fantastic at rebuilding turbochargers, fuel injections, exhaust
systems, head gaskets, etc.

Speaking of mechanics, I have to put that *hat* on tonight.  For the first
time in 18 years, the old Saab has refused to start this week.  I feel like
my best friend is missing while driving the big ole SUV to work each day.
If a piston went "South", I may just ship the whole thing to LA for
refurbishment.   The block is already 40 thousands over.  The guy in LA is
the only one I know of who knows which modern pistons fit the bores, have
the same size wrist pin with the same amount of offset, same piston skirt
length and the ring grooves match as well.  And, after boring out the block,
has to know how much bevel to put on the ports so that I don't lose low end
engine torque.  Since I would need a specialty shop to split the crank apart
for replacement of the roller bearings, I might as well ship it all the
across the country.  :-(   Otherwise, my choice is researching which piston
will fit, finding a shop willing to over-bore the block, true the deck and
tech them how to take the crank apart and how to bevel the ports.  It is
almost like a snow-mobile engine, but not quite.  Similar to an outboard
motor engine, but still different.

This almost OT, but slightly still on topic, as it compares to why I don't
want to replace pistons on my SAAB myself, nor have the shop which works on
my British cars do it.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
> For this problem, finding a 'good dentist' who does not use NTI's would be
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>>
>> Joel
W_B - 30 Mar 2005 21:31 GMT
>This almost OT, but slightly still on topic, as it compares to why I don't
>want to replace pistons on my SAAB myself, nor have the shop which works on
>my British cars do it.

OK swap out the entire engine for a nice 4-stroke Yamaha.

<couldn't resist>
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr Steve - 30 Mar 2005 22:19 GMT
That would spoil the fun

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
>>This almost OT, but slightly still on topic, as it compares to why I don't
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
W_B - 30 Mar 2005 22:37 GMT
Yeah, it would be dependable and all that boring stuff...

>That would spoil the fun

>......................
>"W_B" <no_one@nowhere.net> wrote in message

>>>Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>
>> W_B

--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr Steve - 31 Mar 2005 19:25 GMT
Hey, every long trip in a 41 year old car with only 48 HP is an adventure.
Getting back from trip on time always feels like you accomplished something.

BTW, the SAAB is moving under its own power again.  Number 2 piston is
showing signs of pre-ignition on the piston crown.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
> Yeah, it would be dependable and all that boring stuff...
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Joel M. Eichen - 30 Mar 2005 22:18 GMT
>I mostly agree, but would modify the comparison to a mechanic who does not
>have the equipment to balance tires or align front ends.  He chooses not to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>time in 18 years, the old Saab has refused to start this week.  I feel like
>my best friend is missing while driving the big ole SUV to work each day.

I bet it needs an NTI too.

Joel

New Tune Ip.

(not turnip)

>If a piston went "South", I may just ship the whole thing to LA for
>refurbishment.   The block is already 40 thousands over.  The guy in LA is
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>want to replace pistons on my SAAB myself, nor have the shop which works on
>my British cars do it.
The Webby - 31 Mar 2005 01:15 GMT
Interesting comparison.  When I needed my TMJs replaced, I had to go all
the way to Chicago to see a surgeon because there were only two in the
country in 1991 who performed this particular surgery with a particular
"custom fitted" set of parts!  I decided to wait until the third surgeon
came on board, several months later, so that I could ship myself to LA
for refurbishment with someone closer to home and asked for the doctor
in Chicago to come to LA just to "be there" (not operate the case).  

OT?  Nah.

Webby :-)

> I mostly agree, but would modify the comparison to a mechanic who does not
> have the equipment to balance tires or align front ends.  He chooses not to
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> >>
> >> Joel
Joel M. Eichen - 29 Mar 2005 00:20 GMT
>I have no pain when lying down, only when waking/sitting in upright
>position.  As soon as I get up in the morning (about 10 min. into day)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Any opinions?

Yup, get a nice soft pillow. I bet you are sleeping on part of your
jaw.
Joel M. Eichen - 30 Mar 2005 13:15 GMT
>I have no pain when lying down, only when waking/sitting in upright
>position.  As soon as I get up in the morning (about 10 min. into day)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Any opinions?

What is above on March 28 is how the patient presents.

How did we go to "finding a good dentist who can provide me with my
NTI .........." with nothing in between?

Joel
Dr Steve - 30 Mar 2005 13:38 GMT
Hiya Joel!

The OP no longer seems that interested in getting care right away.  She
seems more concerned with insurance coverage than with getting immediate
relief.  If she seriously wants help, we will continue to answer questions.

Her description is typical for long term forceful clenching during sleep.
First line of defense is generally the NTI device.  If symptoms persist,
then explore further.  What is so tough?
Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
>>I have no pain when lying down, only when waking/sitting in upright
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Joel
Joel M. Eichen - 30 Mar 2005 13:47 GMT
Hello Steve,

I agree with your excellent advice.

I become concerned when someone writes and is looking for "a
treatment" not a dentist!

I agree about the first line of defense. Try the NTI and see how it
improves. But that's our advice to one another. That is no reason for
a patient to leave their own dentist, unless there are other concerns.

If there are other concerns, why not ask friends, relatives,
co-workers, your priest, your rabbi or your minister for a
recommendation?

Basically, I am supporting the profession of dentistry and I am
against "the business" of dentistry.

We can earn nice livings either way!

Joel

>Hiya Joel!
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>First line of defense is generally the NTI device.  If symptoms persist,
>then explore further.  What is so tough?
Dr Steve - 30 Mar 2005 13:55 GMT
Also, you could view going to a different office for the NTI the same as
going to the endodontist for a RCT.  The "usual" office could do both, but
might choose not to do one or the other.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

> Hello Steve,
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>>First line of defense is generally the NTI device.  If symptoms persist,
>>then explore further.  What is so tough?
Joel M. Eichen - 30 Mar 2005 14:10 GMT
>Also, you could view going to a different office for the NTI the same as
>going to the endodontist for a RCT.  The "usual" office could do both, but
>might choose not to do one or the other.

Well there ya go ......... if a patient chooses their own endodontist,
I sure hope it was not like the one I saw towards the end of my
practicing.

The x-ray arrived from the endodontist before I ever saw the patient,
and there was no tooth left! I mean EXACTLY none. It was all
beautifully reamed out and filled with gutta percha.

BUT NOTHING above the gum line and the walls of the roots were
extremely thin.

I kept shaking my head wondering how the heck posts would ever last in
thin roots like that.

TWO MOLARS.

ALL CASES require TREATMENT PLANNING, where I would have recommended
implants or at the very least going to my CONSERVATIVE minded
endodontist who would not have gone wild with the drilling.

So I was caught. But thank God the patient cancelled, before I got
into it.

END OF STORY .......

Let's remember that we doctors love to duck responsibility. When the
diagnosis turns out to be something hell-ish, and the medical doctor,
physician, brain surgeon whatever, asks, "Why did you take so long to
get here if you had these headaches for two years ...?" I do not want
to have my name associated with that!

1- Diagnosis
2- Treatment

Not the reverse.

Joel
Dr Steve - 30 Mar 2005 15:05 GMT
Agree with most of what you said.  Cannot compare making an NTI to
performing over-zealous RCT though.  Sure an NTI can be made wrong, but
anything can be done wrong (unless you are a holistic dentist--whatever that
is).  The NTI works well in the diagnostic mode.  In the vast majority of
cases, it solves the problems.  Sometimes, it rules out muscle spasm and the
patient (and doctor) now know it is not pain from clenching.

I have seen patients who came to me specifically for an NTI, then returned
to their "normal" dentist for the remainder (and continuation) of their
work.  No big deal.

BTW, endodontists seem to better lately (overall) than they were 15 years
ago.  I used to see lots of radiographs from endodontists back then which
looked much worse than mine did.  Of course, I was not there during therapy,
so cannot comment on the difficulty involved.  Therefore, never felt the
patient was being treated badly.  [A successful RCT is one which keeps the
tooth in the patient's head for a reasonable time longer than it would have
been there otherwise.]  Simply pointing out that their final fills were not
what I would expected to see.  In recent years, I have been seeing
consistently good looking work.  Either they are even better than they used
to be, new technology helps them to better (as it does the rest of us), or
the newer guys doing endodontics are just better.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
>>Also, you could view going to a different office for the NTI the same as
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> Joel
Joel M. Eichen - 30 Mar 2005 19:38 GMT
>Agree with most of what you said.  Cannot compare making an NTI to
>performing over-zealous RCT though.  Sure an NTI can be made wrong, but
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>to their "normal" dentist for the remainder (and continuation) of their
>work.  No big deal.

I agree......... in fact, I have referred patients to people who like
to perform that sort of treatment ....... it works.

But that's a professional referral.

Joel

>BTW, endodontists seem to better lately (overall) than they were 15 years
>ago.  I used to see lots of radiographs from endodontists back then which
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>to be, new technology helps them to better (as it does the rest of us), or
>the newer guys doing endodontics are just better.
Joel M. Eichen - 30 Mar 2005 14:14 GMT
We are in the middle of a huge court case right now, with elevated
blood pressure, being observed by cardiologists, and ho-hum, no one
bothering to call the patient and say, "Get in here!"

I guess they forgot they are doctors.

HOW SIMPLE: Cardiologist: "You need treratment."

Cardiologists "read" the echocardiogram without ever seeing the
patient ........ they have figured out how to detach themselves from
actually seeing the parients.

While still earning excellent livings.

Wait a minute, we are headed there too!

NURSE! Get busy with that NTI.

Joel

>Also, you could view going to a different office for the NTI the same as
>going to the endodontist for a RCT.  The "usual" office could do both, but
>might choose not to do one or the other.
Dr Steve - 30 Mar 2005 15:07 GMT
I don't know of any offices which let the DA make the NTI.  A good DA could
be trained to do it, but I doubt many State regulations would allow them to
make one in the mouth.  Indirectly, anyone can make on a model.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

> We are in the middle of a huge court case right now, with elevated
> blood pressure, being observed by cardiologists, and ho-hum, no one
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>>going to the endodontist for a RCT.  The "usual" office could do both, but
>>might choose not to do one or the other.
Joel M. Eichen - 30 Mar 2005 14:16 GMT
Along other lines, no along the SAME lines, I had an entire bunch of
patients, fruity-nutty types who convinced one another that eccinacea
could treat dental abscesses, despite my advice to the contrary.

Every single one of those teeth ended up in the trash!

Joel

>Also, you could view going to a different office for the NTI the same as
>going to the endodontist for a RCT.  The "usual" office could do both, but
>might choose not to do one or the other.
Dr Steve - 30 Mar 2005 15:08 GMT
> Along other lines, no along the SAME lines, I had an entire bunch of
> patients, fruity-nutty types who convinced one another that eccinacea
> could treat dental abscesses, despite my advice to the contrary.
>
> Every single one of those teeth ended up in the trash!

I still wonder what the exact definition of a Holistic Dentist might be.
W_B - 30 Mar 2005 16:25 GMT
>> Along other lines, no along the SAME lines, I had an entire bunch of
>> patients, fruity-nutty types who convinced one another that eccinacea
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>I still wonder what the exact definition of a Holistic Dentist might be.

One that leaves a Hole in your bank account.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 30 Mar 2005 18:27 GMT
> >> Along other lines, no along the SAME lines, I had an entire bunch of
> >> patients, fruity-nutty types who convinced one another that eccinacea
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> One that leaves a Hole in your bank account.
> --

Doesn't SM have a Whole Earth dentist practicing near him? Maybe he
could pay a visit and see what goes on in those kind-a places... He
should refuse to undress or put on weird hats, though...
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

Dr Steve - 30 Mar 2005 18:43 GMT
This guy is good card.  He is okay to have in your hand.  He seems to really
believe the alternative stuff, but has never pushed it on anyone at any
events.  He used to send denture work to my Dad, and his denture work was
always first rate.  Custom tinted baseplates, Swissdent teeth, and he put
tons of his own time into each set-up.  He is nice person to sit with at
lunch, a pleasure to be with, and he even has covered emergencies for me
when I am out of town.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
>> >> Along other lines, no along the SAME lines, I had an entire bunch of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> should refuse to undress or put on weird hats, though...
> SP
StovePipe - 30 Mar 2005 18:59 GMT
> This guy is good card.  He is okay to have in your hand.  He seems to really
> believe the alternative stuff, but has never pushed it on anyone at any
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> lunch, a pleasure to be with, and he even has covered emergencies for me
> when I am out of town.

Yes but can he tap dance?

Seriously, I do remember you saying this dude was a good egg... Who
better to define Whole Earth Dentistry for you. He would certainly be
able to separate the real from the BS.
JMO
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

W_B - 30 Mar 2005 21:17 GMT
>> >I still wonder what the exact definition of a Holistic Dentist might be.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>should refuse to undress or put on weird hats, though...
>SP

But that would take all the fun out of it for S&M
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr. Steve - 01 Apr 2005 05:13 GMT
>>> >I still wonder what the exact definition of a Holistic Dentist might be.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>But that would take all the fun out of it for S&M

You promised not to tell!
..
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA

I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
StovePipe - 01 Apr 2005 06:28 GMT
> >Doesn't SM have a Whole Earth dentist practicing near him? Maybe he
> >could pay a visit and see what goes on in those kind-a places... He
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> But that would take all the fun out of it for S&M
> --

Heeee's a Whole Earth Dent and he's Okay
He sleeps all night an' he works all day
He has no temps, he skips and jumps
He has a CEREC- three
He cuts down teeth, he grinds the bumps
He feeds you chamomile tea

EVERYBODY!

Heeee's a Whole Earth Dent and he's Okay
He sleeps all night an' he works all day
He cuts down teeth, he wears high heels
Suspenders and a bra
He wants to be a girlie, just like his dear Papa...

</joke>
Sorry.... a little bit of serious here....
SP
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Finally: take out the TRASHH

Roy Brown - 01 Apr 2005 07:15 GMT
| > >Doesn't SM have a Whole Earth dentist practicing near him? Maybe he
| > >could pay a visit and see what goes on in those kind-a places... He
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
| Sorry.... a little bit of serious here....
| SP

I won't tell the Lampoon, if you don't

Signature

Roy
rem NADA to reply

StovePipe - 02 Apr 2005 01:56 GMT
> | Heeee's a Whole Earth Dent and he's Okay
> | He sleeps all night an' he works all day
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I won't tell the Lampoon, if you don't

Roy... Roy... Roy.... <sigh....>

This is not the National Lampoon;

it's:

MONTY PAY-THON'S FLYING CIR-KUSS

http://www.mwscomp.com  has songs from the show

SP
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Finally: take out the TRASHH

Roy Brown - 02 Apr 2005 05:46 GMT
| > | Heeee's a Whole Earth Dent and he's Okay
| > | He sleeps all night an' he works all day
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
|
| SP

I humbly admit my error.

Signature

Roy
rem NADA to reply

W_B - 01 Apr 2005 16:18 GMT
Well done Piper.

>> >Doesn't SM have a Whole Earth dentist practicing near him? Maybe he
>> >could pay a visit and see what goes on in those kind-a places... He
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>Sorry.... a little bit of serious here....
>SP

--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 02 Apr 2005 05:00 GMT
> Well done Piper.

Check out:

many of the MPFC songs are there.

SP
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Finally: take out the TRASHH

StovePipe - 02 Apr 2005 06:17 GMT
> > Well done Piper.
>
> Check out:

http://www.mwscomp.com

> many of the MPFC songs are there.
>
> SP

Sorry... forgot the link
SP
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Finally: take out the TRASHH

DrSteve - 01 Apr 2005 20:16 GMT
Has George been talking about me again?

>> >Doesn't SM have a Whole Earth dentist practicing near him? Maybe he
>> >could pay a visit and see what goes on in those kind-a places... He
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Sorry.... a little bit of serious here....
> SP
StovePipe - 02 Apr 2005 05:00 GMT
> Has George been talking about me again?

as in W. Bush? Non... I haven't heard from _him_ for a while. Pity. He
needs help with the top-secret Proton Project.
SP
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Finally: take out the TRASHH

estea - 30 Mar 2005 15:08 GMT
Mr/Dr?/Herr Eichen -

FTR/FWIW I've been in the market for an "excellent dentist" (per my
original request) since I moved to Kansas and was simply attempting to
kill 2 birds w/one big stone, so to speak.