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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / March 2005

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What The heck is this?

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legaltriage@hotmail.com - 26 Mar 2005 18:43 GMT
I had 4 original teeth pulled and 2 post-composites on the upper gums.
I had the last molar, bottom right pulled because of placing the upper
denture. It is 2 years now since this and I have this horrible story to
live with.

I have forehead, around both eyes, both cheeks, nose bridge (dead
weight behind the nose), upper gums, upper lip and to the right side of
the upper lip, kinda going down the sie of my
mouth............tightness, pressure, pulling.

Behind the nose, man is it ever disturbing! Right nostril feels as if
it is hanging on my face, as if it does not belong. Much of my skin in
all of the areas, feels as if it is not my skin that I am touching.
Feels weird to wash my skin, put on make-up and wear my upper denture.

When I wear this denture, under my nose, it becomes more apparent that
I have a mask-like sensation. I feel covered with a mask, as if you put
on a facial mask to clean the pores of your skin. Tight, pulling and
pressure.  I feel like I have a snout!!!!!!!!!! I do not know how to
use words to explain this. I am trying to say it the best I can as you
can see here.

No one can see this mask. I feel it. When I raise my eyebrows, my
forehead, eye skin, nose bridge and the cheek skin all feel the same.
It is like weight on my face. A mask like sensation.

All of this came about 3 weeks after teeth pulling. I saw my general
dentist and he told me to see the OS again, he pulled the teeth and
explain it to him. He blew me off! Sure he pricked my upper gum some. I
had Vertigo (BEDRIDDEN FOR 4 MONTHS)also and he told me it may be a
sinus or ear problem. He told me to tell my primary physician and have
him refer me to the ENT doctor.

My own primary would not do this referral!!! I saw him (OS) again later
and told him all of this again, and he told me that maybe I have MS, or
nose polyps. He blew me off again! Talk about hurt. I was excused from
life!!!

No possible words from two dentist about what could have happened to
me. I cried and cried. Then to have my own primary not helping me just
made it all worse to live with. Talk about depression? No words. I get
to mad.

No one would refer me to see a specialsit. I had to fight my primary
doc to even see a Neurologist. I had sudden neck and shoulder pain, so
that got me to the Neurologist. She did a nerve conduction test and
said I had a bulging disc in the neck. Then stated that I had
Trigeminal Nerve Damage from extractions. I have not went back to her
since. Money is the problem.

I paid $3,000.00 for denture, close to $1,000.00 for teeth to be
pulled, using laughing gas also. I then had to spend $5,000 on medicals
after the OS pulled my teeth, shots, medicine and continued office
visits and physical therapy for shoulder. I am so tired of this. Any
answers..........PLEASE!!!!!!!!! I am at $10,000.00 for all of this
crap!!!
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 26 Mar 2005 19:33 GMT
> I had 4 original teeth pulled and 2 post-composites on the upper gums.
> I had the last molar, bottom right pulled because of placing the upper
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> answers..........PLEASE!!!!!!!!! I am at $10,000.00 for all of this
> crap!!!

    This must be investigated further.  I understand your frustration, but
this is unlikely in the extreme to be primarily a dental problem.
    It is conceivable that a portion of the trigeminal nerve (the maxillary
division) may have been damaged by an injection, or even the extractions
themselves, if they were very traumatic.  However, it is unlikely that
the symptoms would take 3 weeks to develop if it was ONLY the injection
and/or extractions.
    You may have some form of atypical facial pain or even trigeminal
neuralgia.  It may have been triggered by the extractions, but there is
almost certainly something else going on.
    I don't know if it is standard practice to diagnose a herniated disc by
nerve conduction-AFAIK, most would do an MRI for this.
    In any case, you deserve a more comprehensive workup.  You should try
to find a way to get back to a neurologist.

Good luck,
Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Dr. Steve - 26 Mar 2005 20:06 GMT
>> I had 4 original teeth pulled and 2 post-composites on the upper gums.
>> I had the last molar, bottom right pulled because of placing the upper
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
>Good luck,
>Steve

Maybe the denture has a overextended labial flange which is
contributing to some of the symptoms.
..
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA

I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 26 Mar 2005 20:46 GMT
>>>I had 4 original teeth pulled and 2 post-composites on the upper gums.
>>>I had the last molar, bottom right pulled because of placing the upper
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
> Maybe the denture has a overextended labial flange which is
> contributing to some of the symptoms.

    That's just strange enough to be true.  Don't know how it would
contribute to a feeling of pressure on the forehead though--those
flanges would REALLY have to be overextended.

Steve
> ..
> Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
> Troy, Michigan, USA
>
> I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

DrSteve - 26 Mar 2005 23:12 GMT
The lower face symptoms could be from an over-extended flange.  But, I would
think the flange would cause pain or pop loose before creating symptoms like
this.

Steve M.

>>>>I had 4 original teeth pulled and 2 post-composites on the upper gums.
>>>>I had the last molar, bottom right pulled because of placing the upper
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
>> I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my
>> handwriting.
BhonestNow - 26 Mar 2005 21:21 GMT
Thanks,

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
&
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
===================
During the 3 weeks, I also used the teeth lightening kit to lighten the
bottom teeth, because I was doing more work on the bottom teeth with
the general dentist who help me design the denture. I had 3 weeks of
Vicodin, because of the rubbing spots of the denture on the upper gums.
I never thought to raise my upper lip, but I did and I saw that the
flap of skin connecting the upper lip to the upper gum was cut. Denture
may have done that by the edge of the denture.

But, as the OS also stated, try leaving the denture out for hours and
see if this changes. I left it out for one week and no change of all
numbness explained in my first post.

When swollen, on Vicodin and wearing this upper denture, one tends to
lend towards that it all is part of the new experience and that time
heals all things. This was my mind set for the 3 weeks. I then thought
that the flap of skin has nerves in it and so it was the problem of all
this experience. I wait some more, hoping it would change things, but
it never did.

The OS, when seen the third time, says this happens in sport injuries.
I had no idea why he interjected that to me. As if I am to feel better
about it. Which I do not!!!! See, in my position, one would think a
dentist and the OS would be forthcoming. What did I do wrong? I was
asking for help, answers and solutions. And at that time, I had no idea
if either had done any wrong, so I was not out to make a stink for
either of them. I was a patient. I hired both of the dentist to do what
had tobe done for a upper denture, teeth pulled and after care of
course. I then had to pay all the other medical providers after this
event to know something. These 2 dentist were not into helping me in my
opinion.

If what the dentists did with me after this event, that was shocking to
me and is seen as normal to you guys, then why do I compare my event
with so many other postings from other patients to see what their
dentist communicated to them. Many have so much more than what I had
communicated to them. See the area of my concern?

What I wanted was a reasonable understanding to what was wrong. You see
by what I posted. I was not asking for guilt. As a patient and after
all of the above, you began to feel neglected and blown
off........right? I even do not kiss the same anymore. I do not like my
husband adding anymore weight on my face! I have to make adjustments
when I am kissing him, so that I have less aggrevation on my skin. I
have more pleasure using the left side of my face than the right side
of my face. My nostrils, man, it is so weird.

I have to concentrate all day on my face. How it feels. What I do thru
the day to change the feeling of my skin is time consuming. This takes
away my pleasure. I flip my denture in and out to alter it just sitting
there. I grit my teeth. I grind and grind and grind!!! I raise my
eyebrows to lift the tightness, pressure and I also have to have times
to shut my eyes thru the day because I am tired of the pulling
sensation.  I am consumed with this aftermath.

Sure, I have plans to go back to the Neurologist. She did a nerve
conduction for my neck and shoulder pain, and then I told her that I
had the MRI at the hospital already on my neck and shoulder area, so
she got that and concluded the bulging disc. There was no no nerve
conduction for my face and I am still left with no one wanting to check
that area for me. Now why is that? Why was that not done on the day
that I saw her? That visit and that test was $364.00 and I paid for it
myself because I wanted answers.

Now, to get referred again, I have to see my primary doctor to see
Neurologist again. He wants his money when I see him and he may not
refer me to the specialist, because this dental complaint does not come
under a new problem. It is in the past and nothing can be done for it.
See, I have done this already and that is why I can post these words
here. That hurts more! So how in this world do I navigate this medical
system to get help? I have done my best. I have taken all the
anti-inflamatory meds possible. I have had shots to the neck, back and
left shoulder. No one is addressing my face being numb.

So what is it that can be done that I do not know already?

I made the complaint to her on my facial numbness, but she was
authorized only for the neck and shoulder area! I have cash for any
test to be done. She did ask me back and some medicine can be
prescibed. She also told me that physical therapy would help. I did not
for one visit and because of the severe pain I stopped that, at least
until the Orthopedic had me under pain control by his shots.
BhonestNow - 26 Mar 2005 21:33 GMT
"I made the complaint to her on my facial numbness, but she was
authorized only for the neck and shoulder area! I have cash for any
test to be done. She did ask me back and some medicine can be
prescibed. She also told me that physical therapy would help."

Correction below>>>>I stated previously

"I did PT for one visit and because of the severe pain I stopped that,
at least
until the Orthopedic had me under pain control by his shots."

I am focusing on my outter shoulder pain. For me right now that is
fine. Sure, my neck hurts and all I know is about the bulging disc. It
is my my face that concerns me. Who does the comprehensive testings? If
the neurologist, then fne, i will try to get back to her, but as I
said, my primary is not making the referral. That is a problem with
this whole picture!!!!!! Help me please.
CWatters - 26 Mar 2005 23:19 GMT
I'm not a dentist but I've had my share of work done....

Whenever I've had temporary dentures or plates/braces I've found that I
can't tollerate them for long - no matter how comfortable the dentist tries
to make them - It's the sheer sensation of having something in my mouth that
makes me want to prod, poke and generally move them around with my tounge
that makes my whole face and jaw ache - yes right up to the forehead. In the
end I simply have to leave them out. Now that I've got a fixed bridge all is
well.

I'm wondered if you had a similar problem because you said...

> I flip my denture in and out to alter it just sitting
> there. I grit my teeth. I grind and grind and grind!!!
> I raise my eyebrows to lift the tightness, pressure
> and I also have to have times to shut my eyes thru
> the day because I am tired of the pulling sensation.

What happens if you leave the thing out althogether for several days and
just put them in for eating?
DrSteve - 26 Mar 2005 23:21 GMT
> "I made the complaint to her on my facial numbness, but she was
> authorized only for the neck and shoulder area! I have cash for any
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> said, my primary is not making the referral. That is a problem with
> this whole picture!!!!!! Help me please.

You just have to love managed care.
DrSteve - 26 Mar 2005 23:20 GMT
I see no way for the work inside your mouth to effect skin sensations as
distant from the mouth as you describe.  Damage to the infra-orbital nerve
can effect upper lip, nostril and lower eyelid.  An over-extended denture
flange can push up on the lower nose and perhaps (never heard of it, but
suppose it could happen) put pressure on the infra-orbital nerve.  A lot of
clenching can cause various muscle spasms in the face as well.

From your description, it does not sound like a dental problem, but I can
only go by your account of what you feel which is not as precise as a full
physical examination.

Sorry if I was not more helpful

Dr. Mancuso

> Thanks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 85 lines]
> for one visit and because of the severe pain I stopped that, at least
> until the Orthopedic had me under pain control by his shots.
BhonestNow - 27 Mar 2005 06:15 GMT
I am a Fibromyalgia patient for over 15 years. I heard lately that this
was the underlying syndrome and when I had teeth pulled all hell broke
lose upon me. I paid for a private expert opinion on this matter of
Fibromyalgia being the blame for such my facial numbness. He is working
with my family doctor quite well to arrest this Fibromyalgia. I have
never known it can be stopped. Of course I have a lot to do with it,
but there are tests way beyond what my primary has done and I settled
for them to the the best truth for me. Now I know better.

In the course of my dental nightmare, at the point of using the teeth
lightener kit, this is when that "electric-like-shocks" hit me. It
started from the right side of face, down the right cheek and back and
forth across the bottom teeth. For 5 days it was like that, not
staying-constant-pain, but the shocks came and went. Most horrible!

I figured this was a part of healing. I knew nothing. I had the numb
nose right after this. I had the constriction on my right side of the
temple area, across the forehead, down across both eyes, then both
cheeks. My right cheek is where the electric shocks started to the
bottom teeth. then the nose, then the other areas surfaced and stayed
with me ever since. Nothing has altered for 5 minutes. I would know
that. I have left my upper denture out at night. I have left it out and
out and out! Nothing has ever changed.

I said I have to make all those mouth movements just to get my mind off
of the deadness, numbness, tightness and contriction. I have a new
habit now. I have grown into this, not because of a bad denture. I have
a hollywood smile. I even use cold eye packs to feel refeshed on my
skin some at times.

Picture this: Inside of my face, behind my skin, at the hair line and
down the face to the upper lip. This is like someone is pushing down on
me starting at the hair line and my skin feels like it is being pushed
downward. The feeling, or the sensation, or whatever ya call it, stays
this way. It never changes. My skin is not sagging down, so you can't
see this. It is internal.

I even thought that maybe a plastic surgeon would be helpful. Does he
know the facial nerves like the dentist? Reconstruction of what? Help
please. Money is never a problem for me to know the truth and if
cutting on me is one answer of truth, then so be it.
Flap - 27 Mar 2005 06:39 GMT
Sounds to me an OMS (Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon)  and/or a
Neurologist is your next stop.

Hope this helps and good luck.

Flap

http://flapsblog.blogspot.com
Roy Brown - 27 Mar 2005 06:51 GMT
The Fibromyalgia is foremost in my mind as the culprit. Other symptoms may be
referred pain which is laminar in nature in the facial area. I agree with what
Steve has said, and would question if the denture is causing excess pressure on
the incisive papilla.

I'd suggest finding a dentist that has received training in oral facial pain.
Many large cities have one or two. Where are you from? Maybe someone here can
suggest a name or two in your area.

Signature

Roy
rem NADA to reply

|I am a Fibromyalgia patient for over 15 years. I heard lately that this
| was the underlying syndrome and when I had teeth pulled all hell broke
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
| please. Money is never a problem for me to know the truth and if
| cutting on me is one answer of truth, then so be it.
Joel M. Eichen - 27 Mar 2005 11:56 GMT
We are saddened to hear your tale. Might I suggest sending all the
bills to the dentist who undoubedly will glady pay for this.

Joel

>I am a Fibromyalgia patient for over 15 years. I heard lately that this
>was the underlying syndrome and when I had teeth pulled all hell broke
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>please. Money is never a problem for me to know the truth and if
>cutting on me is one answer of truth, then so be it.
kureforcrohns@sbcglobal.net - 27 Mar 2005 18:54 GMT
"All of this came about three weeks after the pulling"    That indicates
there should be periods of no symptoms.   Are the symptoms constant or is
there comfort at other times.
Please follow up on your condition to this newsgroup as I am sure all the
dentists and others are concerned for your well being.   This should be
solvable without all the trauma of many further tests which may aggravate
the condition more than help it.
Not a dentist, just an observer of many unexplainable severe problems for no
seemingly  discernable reason.   In your  case however, fibromyalgia may
have been the trigger.
I am sure the dentists here would like to be of  further help, if possible
and only by contintuing your progress, can this be done.   You can be of
benefit to the dentists and the dentists can be of  benefit to you.   We are
all wishing you to be well.

Gail Michael     Hope to heck that there is an answer
You can also say as one person did "I will answer your questions when you
hang out a shingle"
 
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