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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / March 2005root canal cost?
Any ranges or averages on root canal costs thru a dentist? chaz >Any ranges or averages on root canal costs thru a dentist? > >chaz Used to be $200 or $300 and suddenly went up to $750 to $1,000 ...... I dunno .... its usually an hour's work depending on the tooth! Specialists are around the same. Joel >>Any ranges or averages on root canal costs thru a dentist? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I dunno .... its usually an hour's work depending on the tooth! >Specialists are around the same. When I get my car fixed I like to go early in the morning. As I waited, I overheard a lady who was given an estimate for $600 to fix some rattle in her door. As I sat in the waiting room, she was in and out within 45 minutes. So its like what we capitalists got going on ...... whatever the traffic will bear seems to be the price or fee. Joel >Joel An hour to do the work and 4-10 years to learn how to do it. >>Any ranges or averages on root canal costs thru a dentist? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Joel >An hour to do the work and 4-10 years to learn how to do it. True, or longer! >>>Any ranges or averages on root canal costs thru a dentist? >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> Joel > An hour to do the work and 4-10 years to learn how to do it. .... and a few grey hairs along the way.... SP  SignatureNot a real Addy, yet > An hour to do the work and 4-10 years to learn how to do it. Could you go into this a little more? I recently had a root canal that cost $1500, and it took an hour. I am really struggling to understand this pricing. Are the materials really expensive? Am I paying for other parts of the dentist's practice that he can't charge for? > >>Any ranges or averages on root canal costs thru a dentist? > >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > > Joel >> An hour to do the work and 4-10 years to learn how to do it. > >Could you go into this a little more? I recently had a root canal that >cost $1500, and it took an hour. I am really struggling to understand >this pricing. Are the materials really expensive? Am I paying for >other parts of the dentist's practice that he can't charge for? You are going to hear $25 to drill the root canal and $1,475 for knowing which direction to drill it .... Joel ANSWER: Its down (for a lower tooth, UP for an upper). I am going to get slammed here ........ > >> An hour to do the work and 4-10 years to learn how to do it. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You are going to hear $25 to drill the root canal and $1,475 for > knowing which direction to drill it .... Hey, I'm a lawyer. I know all about hourly fees that seem really high, but the client has no idea how much nonbillable time gets put in. Still - can I get just a little more here? I know where to file patent applications, but I still don't get $1500/hour to do it . . . Emma, Would you like to swap hourly overhead for a month? Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >> >> An hour to do the work and 4-10 years to learn how to do it. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Still - can I get just a little more here? I know where to file patent > applications, but I still don't get $1500/hour to do it . . . > Emma, > > Would you like to swap hourly overhead for a month? Please don't get defensive. I really am just asking for information. I have a brother-in-law who is a psychologist. His overhead consists of rent on a ten foot square room, a desk and two chairs. When I start to talk about what it costs to keep my office open, his eyes start to roll back into his head. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >> Emma, >> >> Would you like to swap hourly overhead for a month? > > Please don't get defensive. I really am just asking for information. > I have a brother-in-law who is a psychologist. His overhead consists of > rent on a ten foot square room, a desk and two chairs. When I start to talk > about what it costs to keep my office open, his eyes start to roll back into > his head. I was really interested. Thanks. My overhead is somewhere between these two. I need an office with a conference room and lot of room for files and copy machine, fax, etc. I need a paralegal. I need fairly up to date computers, high speed internet, some specialized software. We could discuss computer networks, and PC's, CAD-CAM machines, etc., but then Steve B. would start teasing me. I just bought new chairs this past year for $30K. Just the chairs and cuspidors. Each tray of instruments costs about $300-$800 to replace. A one ounce bottle of dental adhesive costs $180. A one ounce bottle of porcelain conditioner (prior to bonding porcelain to a tooth) costs $120. Do you want me to go on? Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >> I have a brother-in-law who is a psychologist. His overhead consists of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > files and copy machine, fax, etc. I need a paralegal. I need fairly up > to date computers, high speed internet, some specialized software. > We could discuss computer networks, and PC's, CAD-CAM machines, etc., but > then Steve B. would start teasing me. What's a PC? > I just bought new chairs this past year for $30K. Just the chairs and > cuspidors. Each tray of instruments costs about $300-$800 to replace. A > one ounce bottle of dental adhesive costs $180. A one ounce bottle of > porcelain conditioner (prior to bonding porcelain to a tooth) costs $120. > Do you want me to go on? It's a bear to comb out your porcelain if you don't use conditioner. Steve SignatureCut the nonsense to reply >> I have a brother-in-law who is a psychologist. His overhead consists of >> rent on a ten foot square room, a desk and two chairs. When I start to talk [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >files and copy machine, fax, etc. I need a paralegal. I need fairly up >to date computers, high speed internet, some specialized software. Bet you don't have *any* piece of equipment that costs $120K. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE If you are referring to my $94K CAD-CAM set-up, I don't really see that as an expense as the monthly payment on it is less than the lab bill it replaces. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>> I have a brother-in-law who is a psychologist. His overhead consists of [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Take out the G'RBAGE >If you are referring to my $94K CAD-CAM set-up, I don't really see that as >an expense as the monthly payment on it is less than the lab bill it >replaces. ....and it is the future ........ Very forward thinking type of dentistry, but honestly, I am not surprised. Steve Mancuso is at the very top of his game ...... Joel > >> I have a brother-in-law who is a psychologist. His overhead consists > >> of rent on a ten foot square room, a desk and two chairs. When I start [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Bet you don't have *any* piece of equipment that costs $120K. You are quite right. >> >these two. I need an office with a conference room and lot of room for >> >files and copy machine, fax, etc. I need a paralegal. I need fairly up [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >You are quite right. But a lawyer wasting three hours in court can add up to more than a piddling amount! Joel > >> >these two. I need an office with a conference room and lot of room for > >> >files and copy machine, fax, etc. I need a paralegal. I need fairly up [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > But a lawyer wasting three hours in court can add up to more than a > piddling amount! I'm a patent attorney and know nothing of this "court" of which you speak. When I'm working, I'm thinking, hard. Then I take a break and play on Usenet (but that's on my own time). >> But a lawyer wasting three hours in court can add up to more than a >> piddling amount! > >I'm a patent attorney and know nothing of this "court" of which you >speak. When I'm working, I'm thinking, hard. Then I take a break and >play on Usenet (but that's on my own time). To play raquetball you need to go to court ...... > I have a brother-in-law who is a psychologist. His overhead consists of > rent on a ten foot square room, a desk and two chairs. When I start to talk > about what it costs to keep my office open, his eyes start to roll back into > his head. You never liked your brother-in-law, did you? Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 I have actually learned to respect him and 'love" him over the past 12 years. He is a great guy! Wonderful person to have a controversial debate with. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >> I have a brother-in-law who is a psychologist. His overhead consists of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Steve >> I have a brother-in-law who is a psychologist. His overhead consists of >> rent on a ten foot square room, a desk and two chairs. When I start to talk [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Steve Heard that the B-I-L was always trying to get SM as a patient. Wait... nevermind... ...that was two other people -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE All of my personalities avoid his couch. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>> I have a brother-in-law who is a psychologist. His overhead consists of [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Take out the G'RBAGE >All of my personalities avoid his couch. Good one ! -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >I have a brother-in-law who is a psychologist. His overhead consists of >rent on a ten foot square room, If psychotherapists lose the couch and switch to chairs, five feet will do! > a desk and two chairs. When I start to talk >about what it costs to keep my office open, his eyes start to roll back into >his head. >I have a brother-in-law who is a psychologist. His overhead consists of >rent on a ten foot square room, a desk and two chairs. When I start to talk >about what it costs to keep my office open, his eyes start to roll back into >his head. Put him on the couch before explaining dental economics. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >> Emma, >> >> Would you like to swap hourly overhead for a month? > >Please don't get defensive. I really am just asking for information. SM is a bit touchy about that hourly overhead. Generally speaking, dental practice overhead runs ~60 - 80%. YMMV. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE > >> Emma, > >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > runs ~60 - 80%. > YMMV. Law practice is usually better than this. Except for those couple of bad years right after the tech crash. The less said about *that* the better. =:-0 >> >> An hour to do the work and 4-10 years to learn how to do it. >> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Hey, I'm a lawyer. I know all about hourly fees that seem really high, >but the client has no idea how much nonbillable time gets put in. Yeah but they nailed a few lawyers around here when they found they were billing 25 or 26 hours per day ....... for many days running! Joel >Still - can I get just a little more here? I know where to file patent >applications, but I still don't get $1500/hour to do it . . . >> >> An hour to do the work and 4-10 years to learn how to do it. >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Still - can I get just a little more here? I know where to file patent >applications, but I still don't get $1500/hour to do it . . . Yup, I agree that paying by the procedure is not as professional as billing an hourly rate ...... Joel >> An hour to do the work and 4-10 years to learn how to do it. > >Could you go into this a little more? I recently had a root canal that >cost $1500, and it took an hour. I am really struggling to understand >this pricing. Are the materials really expensive? Am I paying for >other parts of the dentist's practice that he can't charge for? You are paying for the skill and time of the practitioner. As stated before, your geographical location has a huge impact on dental fees. $1,500 is steep in my neck of the woods. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com First, Emma Anne wrote: > >Could you go into this a little more? I recently had a root canal that > >cost $1500, and it took an hour. I am really struggling to understand > >this pricing. Are the materials really expensive? Am I paying for > >other parts of the dentist's practice that he can't charge for? Then W_B pontificated: > You are paying for the skill and time of the practitioner. > > As stated before, your geographical location has > a huge impact on dental fees. > > $1,500 is steep in my neck of the woods. Is this not perhaps a specialist in Endodontics that did this RCT with this fee? just a thought SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet > First, Emma Anne wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > this fee? > just a thought RCT? He was a specialist. RCT = Root Canal Treatment Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >> First, Emma Anne wrote: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > He was a specialist. Hourly overhead can range from $150-$300 and hour depending on the office and location. The rotary files used to clean the roots are "one use & throw away" and cost $7-$10 each. If they used heated gutta percha to seal with, that is another $5-8 each. A few bucks worth of lubricant, irrigant and sealer. A bit of temporary seal (filling), plus the cost of the diamonds and burs. Add to this the cost to sterilize the instruments, $1500 for the computer controlled hand-piece to spin the files and burs, gloves, masks, etc. Now factor in the cost of giving up all income for 8 years to get a dental degree, plus starving for the first ten years building the business to a profitable point. And, the training on the rotary instruments would be another few days away from the office, plus tuition. A lot of sacrifice is made to be able to perform that service for you (only you weren't there to see the sacrifice). You may not see the value in it, and I will not argue with you over it. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >> An hour to do the work and 4-10 years to learn how to do it. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> > >> > Joel >Hourly overhead can range from $150-$300 and hour depending on the office >and location. The rotary files used to clean the roots are "one use & throw [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >you weren't there to see the sacrifice). You may not see the value in it, >and I will not argue with you over it. Yet loads of dentists seem to be willing to do the molar root canal for five hundred bucks as guaranteed by the dental insurance company ....... Joel >>A lot of sacrifice is made to be able to perform that service for you (only >>you weren't there to see the sacrifice). You may not see the value in it, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Joel I wouldn't. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>A lot of sacrifice is made to be able to perform that service for you (only >>>you weren't there to see the sacrifice). You may not see the value in it, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >I wouldn't. Individual choice! Show me one who will do molar endo for $500, then show me the quality of his work. Sargenti Paste users not included. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>>A lot of sacrifice is made to be able to perform that service for you [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Take out the G'RBAGE >Show me one who will do molar endo for $500, then show me the quality of his >work. Sargenti Paste users not included. There are skilled doctors doing molar endodontics for $500. They have lower overhead offices than those described here! Joel show me Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>Show me one who will do molar endo for $500, then show me the quality of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Joel >show me I just put three of them on the plane ,,,, send them back later on. Joel Even I charge $600. I don't think there are a lot of offices with lower overhead than mine (unless it's just a 'mom & pop' office using 650 sq. ft. of space, 1 curing light, 2 ops, no pan, dip tanks, and of course no laser, air abrasion, cerec, etc. But then, the production is severly limited, but if they cut out Uncle Sam....... Fawks > show me > Even I charge $600. I don't think there are a lot of offices with > lower overhead than mine (unless it's just a 'mom & pop' office using > 650 sq. ft. of space, 1 curing light, 2 ops, no pan, dip tanks, and > of course no laser, air abrasion, cerec, etc. > Fawks This puzzles me, as it does every time SF broaches the subject. A dentist only has two hands. If said dentist doesn't use CEREC (where one must wait for the machine to do its thing and spit out the restoration), I don't see where having a third opertory is making one more productive. It would be, say, if you were having a hygienist fill the cavities you drill, or cement the temps on the teeth you drill for C&B, or finish and polish for the NTI's you fit, etc. But apart from that, I wonder where I'd recoup the investment it would entail by equipping a third opertory with chair, seats, lamp, instruments, etc... Maybe I'm underestimating the time savings it would generate by having one assistant tend one room while another does the next one, I don't know... All I know is, it would take one more room (which I would have to rent from the pharmacist/owner), and pay another girl to "man" (or more correctly "woman") said room. For this, you have to have the volume, and those . I don't think that in this pea fart little city (that has 1.5 times as many dentists as it needs) I can have that volume. That is, unless I under cut the competition by 25 percent, and turn the clinic into the McDonald's of dentistry. OTOH, what do _I_ know....?...... How many of you (who are still reading) actually listen to your accountants? SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >OTOH, what do _I_ know....?...... How many of you (who are still >reading) actually listen to your accountants? >SP Listen to accountants ? You are supposed to tell your accountant what you want to do; and then they give advice on how to structure deals for your best tax advantage. Accountants do other stuff too BTW... Minimally equip a room and put a hygienist to work ? -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE > Listen to accountants ? > You are supposed to tell your accountant what you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Minimally equip a room and put a hygienist to work ? Mebbe so, for practices that are thriving. Right now, he is just trying to keep my practice in survival mode. There are times when I really have to fight the sentiment that I _should_ let it go under, bury it and go start over in a better place. Of course, the best way to do that would be to sell it and start over somewhere else... but who would buy it?... But I digress.... SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >> Listen to accountants ? >> You are supposed to tell your accountant what you [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >But I digress.... >SP You may need better MARKETING ..... both internal and external ...... and better procedures within the practice. Joel > You may need better MARKETING ..... both internal and external ...... > and better procedures within the practice. > > Joel Of course we need all that... AND stability... I tried an assistant who had no course (but alot of interest) and it was a disaster. An ADD dentist should not be doing things like that (I now realize...). My part-time hygienist (the best I've had) is going for a year's sabbatical in Switzerland in July. I KNOW I will not find another: there is a dearth of Hyg's here. This hasn't helped, but there are other problems as well. There is no more $$$ in my end of the city, and so I don't think putting any more $$$ into upgrading my little 620 sq ft is going to help. Thanks for your input, JME SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >> You may need better MARKETING ..... both internal and external ...... >> and better procedures within the practice. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >think putting any more $$$ into upgrading my little 620 sq ft is going >to help. UPGRADING facilities will not improve cash flow. Thirty percent of our patients bring us 70% of our income and the reverse unfortunately, is also true! What has happened in recent years is that other dentists, aggressive marketers know this and are scooping out your 30% and leaving you with more of their 70%. This is how some dental offices, some with one dentist, are netting $1.4 million, $2 million and sometimes more per year. How would they do that without a stream of new patients? The old ones, patients, after they have been in your care for a year or two years, well they have opted for optimal services or they have NOT. There is no getting around that. "Doc, I lost a filling." Well that's not a money maker, many times. Its a good dental service, but we are talking survival and even thriving, if the practice is to continue. Think of it as necessary for the survival of your services. About discretionary funds. Educate yourself. Every single working person is making choices. They have cable TV ($70 per month) they have cell phones ($50 per month), etc. So good dentistry, CEREC for example, is also a choice. Off er the choice and you are doing the patients a huge service. If you tailor make your treatments down to the lowest level, you are doing your patients a DISSERVICE. WELFARE PEOPLE It does not mean what it used to mean. Travel to a supermarket and notice who pays with an ACCESS card (This is our version of food stamps and welfare payments ~ its a debit card where the county deposits welfare funds and the recipient draws them out). Notice what kinds of cars they drive away in. Often the car is better and newer than yours. So there they are in the office and welfare does not pay for scaling and root planing, PerioChip, etc. STILL, the patient needs it. CHOICES! Do not subsidize your patient's car payment loan! Again ~ CHOICES. You write the ticket. Get 10% or 20% to accept your ticket. Then spend the rest of your day enjoying dentistry.You have made your money and now you can relax and enjoy what you do. Most of your money comes from people accepting complete treatment, and that is new patients. Joel How about that Dr. Steve? Joel recommends CEREC! >Thanks for your input, JME >SP > Most of your money comes from people accepting complete treatment, and > that is new patients. > > Joel > > How about that Dr. Steve? Joel recommends CEREC! This is the only thing about what you've said that I don't swallow. I do not have the patient base for CEREC. If I can get in/onlays and C&B up to the point where the machine would be a serious consideration, I will reevaluate. Until then, I'll use the local lab to grind my CERECs for me. With all due respect, you can't squeeze blood from a stone. I seriously wonder if DrS or any CEREC dentist could make that fly where I am. I can't even finance the repairs for my Laser!!!! This is because (I truly believe) the patient base simply will not pay for that service, if it costs more than the regular treatment. So, I truly regret that my local phone book advert mentions the Laser. Those who ask get told why I will not spend 10K-14KUS$ to fix it: Biolase is hanging me out to dry (stopping support for the M1), I cannot sterilize my handpieces, and there is serious reservation as to the acceptability of the lased tooth surface for composite bonding (Jeff Brucia). Re your suggestion about Marketing: My little (FULLY autoclavable) Danville Mark II microetcher has done more to prepare surfaces for bonding than the Laser ever could (tooth structure under Am-filled teeth, internal surfaces of crowns, old Am for patching, minimal preps for cavities). I spent 400$ CDN on that at the Ray Berlotti Lecture in October (when I stayed with Roy et.al.)... That whole weekend was one of the most profitable I have ever had: hearing Roy's and Carol Anne's philosophies, seeing that Okeson video, taking some of DaDa RB's recommendations into practice... Seeing that there really is profitability somewhere in Canada... I could 'Market' the microetcher, and an eventual air abrasion system that I would consider purchasing (eBay....) but again, until the team is stable, marketing is not advisable. You have to be able to put your money where your mouth is. Thanks SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >> Most of your money comes from people accepting complete treatment, and >> that is new patients. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >This is the only thing about what you've said that I don't swallow. I do >not have the patient base for CEREC. We agree, not you, I am merely saying that Dr. Steve has the right idea ,,,, in his locale, with his practice! > If I can get in/onlays and C&B up >to the point where the machine would be a serious consideration, I will >reevaluate. Until then, I'll use the local lab to grind my CERECs for >me. With all due respect, you can't squeeze blood from a stone. I >seriously wonder if DrS or any CEREC dentist could make that fly where I >am. I bet they could, but not in a year. It takes a while to develop a quality practice. Step one is STEP ONE ....... > I can't even finance the repairs for my Laser!!!! This is because (I >truly believe) the patient base simply will not pay for that service, if >it costs more than the regular treatment. So, I truly regret that my >local phone book advert mentions the Laser. Doesn't matter ,,,,,,,, when I turned on my composite curing light, 90% of my patients said, "What's that? A laser?" I am still wondering how the other dentists near me cured composites! >Those who ask get told why I >will not spend 10K-14KUS$ to fix it: Biolase is hanging me out to dry >(stopping support for the M1), I cannot sterilize my handpieces, and >there is serious reservation as to the acceptability of the lased tooth >surface for composite bonding (Jeff Brucia). I would simply say that this tooth cannot be treated with MY LASER. (This is true, its busted, but do not say that) >Re your suggestion about Marketing: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >some of DaDa RB's recommendations into practice... Seeing that there >really is profitability somewhere in Canada... EVERYWHERE! Make it happen! > I could 'Market' the >microetcher, and an eventual air abrasion system that I would consider >purchasing (eBay....) but again, until the team is stable, marketing is >not advisable. You have to be able to put your money where your mouth >is. NOPE! Patients have no idea what this means ..... Tell me one thing. If a new patient calls, can you see the patient tomorrow, or is your schedule jam packed for two weeks or more? If you can see the patient tomorrow, you need many many more patients! >Thanks >SP > > patient base for CEREC. > > We agree, not you, I am merely saying that Dr. Steve has the right > idea ,,,, in his locale, with his practice! Yes, he wisely chose a locale to support his type of dentistry. He had one advantage: he knew exactly what kind of dentist he wanted to be. I only knew that I'd seen the American Dental Hygienics Nd:YAG laser used in Perio and a bit of soft tissue management and I knew I wanted that type of thing in my practice. I also knew I needed work on my treatments. > > ... I seriously wonder if DrS or any CEREC dentist could make that fly > >where I am. > > I bet they could, but not in a year. It takes a while to develop a > quality practice. Step one is STEP ONE ....... > I am still wondering how the other dentists near me cured composites! Auto cure? > >Those who ask get told why I will not spend 10K-14KUS$ to fix it: > >blathering.... > > I would simply say that this tooth cannot be treated with MY LASER. This is true. Better approach, less complaining/excuses. > >Re your suggestion about Marketing: > >...when I stayed with Roy et.al.)... Seeing that there really is > >profitability somewhere in Canada... > > EVERYWHERE! Make it happen! There is a net surplus of dentists in Kanada, and this is doubly true here is Kebac City: Gov't town, no industry, no business savy... > > I could 'Market' the microetcher, and an eventual air abrasion system > >that I would consider purchasing (eBay....) but again, until the team is > >stable, marketing is not advisable. You have to be able to put your > >money where your mouth is. > > NOPE! Patients have no idea what this means ..... If you mean air abrasion, they only need to know that it means more dentistry without injections. I've even heard you can undermine old Am's and can-opener them out using air abrasion. Haven't tried that. > Tell me one thing. If a new patient calls, can you see the patient > tomorrow, or is your schedule jam packed for two weeks or more? Nope, I work slowly. I'm booked quite far in advance. If/when I can tighten up my procedures, I could free up some more time. DrS said that if you're fully booked, it's b/cs you're not charging enough. He suggested (as did SB a while ago) that I increase fees by 10%. > If you can see the patient tomorrow, you need many many more patients! I don't think there ARE many many more patients to be had, unless you count welfare cases. Thanks for the input SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >> > patient base for CEREC. >> [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >Thanks for the input >SP Remind me tomorrow. I have a study done by Kodak on the PC work. It basically says that if cut your fees by 10%, you have to do 30% greater volume to do the same net. the same thing works in reverse. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. > Remind me tomorrow. I have a study done by Kodak on the PC work. It > basically says that if cut your fees by 10%, you have to do 30% > greater volume to do the same net. the same thing works in reverse. > .. OK, thanks SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet > Nope, I work slowly. I'm booked quite far in advance. If/when I can > tighten up my procedures, I could free up some more time. DrS said that > if you're fully booked, it's b/cs you're not charging enough. He > suggested (as did SB a while ago) that I increase fees by 10%. I don't know how it works with dentists, but with lawyers, raising your rates hardly ever causes clients to leave (and if any do, they are the ones you wish would leave). It doesn't scare away new clients either. They don't really *want* the cheapest lawyer because they want a *good* lawyer. This is backed up by research and my own experience. The Pipe blathered: .....He suggested (as did SB a while ago) that I increase fees by 10%. > I don't know how it works with dentists, but with lawyers, raising your > rates hardly ever causes clients to leave (and if any do, they are the > ones you wish would leave). It doesn't scare away new clients either. > They don't really *want* the cheapest lawyer because they want a *good* > lawyer. This is backed up by research and my own experience. Yes, it makes sense that people would want someone who can afford to take the time to be _good_. I'll think about that. Thanks, Emma Anne ;-) SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >>> Most of your money comes from people accepting complete treatment, and >>> that is new patients. [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > >If you can see the patient tomorrow, you need many many more patients! If you cannot see the new patient this week, you need to re-plan how your office functions. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. > If you cannot see the new patient this week, you need to re-plan how > your office functions. > .. > Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. > Troy, Michigan, USA All I remember from previous discussion of this re-planning is you saying that I should up my fees by 10 percent. That would tend to open up more spaces in the schedule and give me a bit of flexability. Is this what you mean? Thanks SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH >> If you cannot see the new patient this week, you need to re-plan how >> your office functions. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Thanks >SP That, and consider leaving one appt a day (or every other day) open for emergencies & New Patents. You can always call someone and fill it at the last minute if you don't need it. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. > >All I remember from previous discussion of this re-planning is you > >saying that I should up my fees by 10 percent. That would tend to open [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. With the new assistant production is already quite low. I could leave 1/2 hour per block of two days for those situations. Thanks SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH Bump the fees and leave a slot open until the last minute. Keep a list of people who want that slot as you get close to it. If no emergencies or new-patients, call someone on the list and fill it with them. Let the patients know you are saving this spot for emergency patients, but will give it to them at the last minute if no emergencies arise. Trust me on this one. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >> >All I remember from previous discussion of this re-planning is you [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Thanks > SP > Bump the fees and leave a slot open until the last minute. Keep a list of > people who want that slot as you get close to it. If no emergencies or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Trust me on this one. OK, we'll try that. Thanks SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH >I could 'Market' the >microetcher, and an eventual air abrasion system that I would consider >purchasing (eBay....) but again, until the team is stable, marketing is >not advisable. You have to be able to put your money where your mouth >is. If you can creeate a catchy ad, print it up and send some kids around to drop it in every single house within two miles of you. Cost? Hundreds, not thousands. Joel > >I could 'Market' the > >microetcher, .... > If you can creeate a catchy ad, print it up and send some kids around > to drop it in every single house within two miles of you. > > Cost? Hundreds, not thousands. Now, that is a good suggestion, especially since I am getting the feeling that I am soon to have competition right in front of me (on the other side of the street; I saw one of the more agressive dental reps coming out of this place that is having a 'going out of business sale'). Thanks SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >> Most of your money comes from people accepting complete treatment, and >> that is new patients. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >Thanks >SP You start by asking your patients every day. "Would you accept a tooth colored restoration which lasts as long as a gold crown, but requires me to grind away less tooth? If I buy the technology, it will be one in one appt and cost less than the gold crown. Your insurance will play for half of it." Until you ask, you never know how many will pay for if. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. > You start by asking your patients every day. "Would you accept a tooth > colored restoration which lasts as long as a gold crown, but requires [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. > Troy, Michigan, USA You are right enough about that: there is a small segment of my patients who would appreciate CEREC technologies. If I don't offer it, they will jump to any of at least five clinics I know of in this immediate area who _do_ have this technology. How come so many CEREC 3D in Quebec City? Can the market support another one? The Mad Dogs are all retiring this July. This leaves only myself as a health practitioner on the second floor of the pharmacy where we are. If I was the pharmacist/owner of that building, I'd sell it: One dentist cannot feed the pharmacy like three Mad Dogs with aging patient bases could. If he does, it may just be the best thing all round. As JME said, you can know in about two years if a patient is going to be serious about his/her dental health to the point where he/she will consume the treatments needed, or not. The same attitude can be applied to the Little Shop of Horrors. It didn't cost much to buy, but it is not worth much either. If the pharmacist does sell it, I'll ask him to help me relocalize into a better area, and we'll call it even. BLAM SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH >You have to be able to put your money where your mouth >is. > >Thanks >SP As long as you don't put your foot there, you should be ok. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Foist, the Pipe mumbled: > >You have to be able to put your money where your mouth > >is. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > As long as you don't put your foot there, you should be ok. > -- .... and the Pipe retorted: Mmmphgrshmf,.. Wjmafgmgdffm! RRRrrrrmmmmrrrr ! <BOOM!> ---- The Pipe falls flat on his face, his left foot still planted firmly in the middle of it. The fire department is alerted to bring their mechanical pliers of life... (...again...) :-/ -- SP Not a real Addy, yet >>OTOH, what do _I_ know....?...... How many of you (who are still >>reading) actually listen to your accountants? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >want to do; and then they give advice on how to structure >deals for your best tax advantage. Nope. My accountant does all my treatment planning and when I am late for work he begins the root canal himself ...... >Accountants do other stuff too BTW... > >Minimally equip a room and put a hygienist to work ? :)))) > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > reading) actually listen to your accountants? > SP > Yet loads of dentists seem to be willing to do the molar root canal > for five hundred bucks as guaranteed by the dental insurance company > ....... > > Joel Not even in Kannaada, where there are starving dentists on every street corner; where we can only afford to bicycle to work even in the winter; where we still use old Singer foot-pedal sewing machines to power our dental drills; and where we are so poor, our only hot meal of the day may be a large bowl of steam, can we do a MOLAR root canal job for 500$ in Kanadian dollarettes... I'd have to forego my bowl of steam... Yeah I know I'm selfish, but that's it... Chus SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >> Yet loads of dentists seem to be willing to do the molar root canal >> for five hundred bucks as guaranteed by the dental insurance company [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Chus >SP Bowl of steam with teaspoon of ketchup = tomato soup. Yeah, it is a shame that a practitioner of your caliber is shackled by the Kaannaadiaan govts socialist health care system SP. Perhaps Joel M. Eichen would put his money where his mouth is and finance a trip to Mancuso's practice for StovePipe and his family. Don't hold your breath boyz; JME, the socialist, is wan, and unlikely to part with his own money. He's damn sure happy to spend yours, however. </soapbox mode> -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE W_B is a clever guy ...... >Perhaps Joel M. Eichen would put his money where his mouth is >and finance a trip to Mancuso's practice for StovePipe and his family. > >Don't hold your breath boyz; >JME, the socialist, is wan, and unlikely to part with his own money. >He's damn sure happy to spend yours, however. >Not even in Kannaada, where there are starving dentists on every street >corner; where we can only afford to bicycle to work even in the winter; >where we still use old Singer foot-pedal sewing machines to power our >dental drills; and where we are so poor, our only hot meal of the day >may be a large bowl of steam, can we do a MOLAR root canal job for 500$ >in Kanadian dollarettes... How much would that be in real money ....? It's usually pretty easy to pick these out when I take X-rays and a lot of times they already have a crown on them that doesn't fit too well either. ;-( Fawks > Yet loads of dentists seem to be willing to do the molar root canal > for five hundred bucks as guaranteed by the dental insurance company > ....... > > Joel >It's usually pretty easy to pick these out when I take X-rays and a >lot of times they already have a crown on them that doesn't fit too >well either. > >;-( >Fawks Puss-in-Boots crowns anyone? >> Yet loads of dentists seem to be willing to do the molar root canal >> for five hundred bucks as guaranteed by the dental insurance company >> ....... >> >> Joel Socks on a rooster. Fawks >>It's usually pretty easy to pick these out when I take X-rays and a >>lot of times they already have a crown on them that doesn't fit too [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >>> >>>Joel >Socks on a rooster. > >Fawks Yup, brings a chuckle too! >>>It's usually pretty easy to pick these out when I take X-rays and a >>>lot of times they already have a crown on them that doesn't fit too [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >>>> >>>>Joel > Hourly overhead can range from $150-$300 and hour depending on the office > and location. The rotary files used to clean the roots are "one use & throw [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > you weren't there to see the sacrifice). You may not see the value in it, > and I will not argue with you over it. Thanks Steve. This is exactly what I was looking for. >Any ranges or averages on root canal costs thru a dentist? > >chaz Depends on the tooth and your geographic region. $500 - 1,000. YMMV -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>chaz > >Depends on the tooth and your geographic region. How much in the molar region? >$500 - 1,000. > >YMMV >-- In this part of the world, $600-$1100 depending on if you go to a GP or specialist. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>>chaz [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>YMMV >>-- |
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