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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / February 2005

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whats the deal with ibond?

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George Chatzipetros - 17 Feb 2005 23:33 GMT
I started using Kulzer's iBond a month ago. I've been very happy with
it, being the first self-etching adhesive I've been using. A couple of
weeks ago I spotted several posts on dental town describing experiences
with iBond that were a bit worrying to say the least. It seems that
several of them got brown staining along enamel margins after 6 months
and they say iBond is either deficient or VERY technique-sensitive. As
I said I'm happy with it (I am only doing posterior composites with it
since I can't afford to use it on anterior NHS cases), but I haven't
used it for that long and I would hate seeing my fillings stained on
the next checkup. Anybody who has used it or had any experience with it
here? I think Bill Combs attended a RB course with it mentioned. I
would love to know what RB's opinion on that is (although I understand
he has an interest in clearfil, so he may be a little biased).

Cheers,
George
Bill - 18 Feb 2005 11:27 GMT
> I started using Kulzer's iBond a month ago. I've been very happy with
> it, being the first self-etching adhesive I've been using. A couple of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Cheers,
> George

I think it was StovePipe who attended that RB course in Canada. He had
posted some of the info on SMD.
- dentaldoc
George Chatzipetros - 18 Feb 2005 17:53 GMT
> I think it was StovePipe who attended that RB course in Canada. He had
> posted some of the info on SMD.
> - dentaldoc

Stovie HELP!!!

George
StovePipe - 22 Feb 2005 06:11 GMT
> > I think it was StovePipe who attended that RB course in Canada. He
> had
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> George

I don't know if <RB> has an interest in ClearFil (Kurrary, Japan) but he
does in many Parkell products. He is a big fan of SE bond and its
modifications for bonding porcelain and the newer Zirconium thimble
containing crowns.

The clearest rundown on bonding agents I've seen actually comes from
Jeff Brucia, a San Francisco dentist/researcher/yacht racer.
Unfortunately, he is NOT a fan of one bottle systems, and even less for
i-Bond. He feels that it cannot work, and that it is only a matter  of
time before this is borne out. He is still a fan of the so-called fourth
generation bonding systems (A+B primer, bonding agent). He used the
analogy of good quality shampoo/cream rinse: Good stuff comes in two
bottles intended for two distinct steps. Cheap stuff comes in one bottle
that attempts to combine the two steps---> Compromise. JB feels that
i-Bond is too much of a compromise in this way.

George, if I were you, I'd go back to your etch and Bond 1 or whatever,
if you have alot of enamel, and cavities that are not too deep. If you
have deep cavities, alot of exposed dentin and little enamel, or if you
have high potential for bleeding from the gingiva, I'd recommend
ClearFil SE bond.

In all cases TAKE YOUR TIME.... move your unit light away from the
mouth, and let the stuff seep in for at least fifteen seconds (better
hybrid layer--> less sensitivity post-op). Then air dry well so the film
thickness is minimal, and blast it with the light for 20 secs.

Sorry to have to tell you this about i-Bond. If only you were here last
year (in May) when I saw Jeff Brucia at the Quebec Dental Symposium
..... I posted some of this stuff back then. IIRC, only JME posted an
acknowledgment, so I don't even know if any of the other regs read it.

In fact, I even seem to remember that there was a move on to organize a
collective lawsuit against i-Bond's manufacturer. I don't know what came
of that.

Put your i-Bond back in the refrigerator and perhaps call some of your
patients back for verification. If things aren't looking good, scream
bloody murder to the Manufacturer. If they give you static, threaten to
join in the lawsuit.

If there is any consolation, it would perhaps be that removing it
shouldn't be too traumatic to the teeth, as it is not bonding well to
them in the first place.

Again, I really do wish I could be more encouraging.

Keep the SMD abreast about how it goes.
Cheers
SP
Signature

Not a real Addy, yet

Alexander Vasserman DDS - 20 Feb 2005 08:36 GMT
Ray Bertolotti does not like ibond.

he calls it "i hope it will bond".

I've never used it, I use one-up-bond and kerr optibond solo plus works
great for me.

> I started using Kulzer's iBond a month ago. I've been very happy with
> it, being the first self-etching adhesive I've been using. A couple of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Cheers,
> George
NOYB - 20 Feb 2005 14:45 GMT
> Ray Bertolotti does not like ibond.
>
> he calls it "i hope it will bond".
>
> I've never used it, I use one-up-bond and kerr optibond solo plus works
> great for me.

I use Clearfil SE Bond.  At a recent Gordon Christensen lecture, he did an
unscientific head count of SE Bond users in attendance.  The number?  About
60%.

Unless the prep was deep enough to require a direct or indirect pulp can, I
have not had a single case of post-op sensitivity following a posterior
composite.

I'm skeptical of anything that says it's self-etch to cut enamel.
Steven Fawks - 21 Feb 2005 14:08 GMT
I use Bond 1 for small to medium stuff, Clearfil SE Bond for deeper
restorations and any situation where rinsing etchant may complicate
isolation (kids without a rubber dam, etc.)

Fawks

> I use Clearfil SE Bond.  At a recent Gordon Christensen lecture, he did an
> unscientific head count of SE Bond users in attendance.  The number?  About
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I'm skeptical of anything that says it's self-etch to cut enamel.
NOYB - 21 Feb 2005 17:04 GMT
> I use Bond 1 for small to medium stuff, Clearfil SE Bond for deeper
> restorations and any situation where rinsing etchant may complicate
> isolation (kids without a rubber dam, etc.)

Why do you switch back and forth?  Isn't it easier just to use one brand of
bonding agent?

I like SE Bond because of it's versatility.  It has a metal primer and a
porcelain activator available.  I've done some porcelain repairs with the
stuff over 3 years ago and they still look like new today.

I wish they had a dual-cure activator though.
Steven Fawks - 21 Feb 2005 20:06 GMT
I have used Bond 1 for years with great success.  I am just not
comfortable making a complete jump to SE Bond *yet*.  Every
*deep* restoration that comes back feeling fine does tip me in
that direction though (plus it works well with the laser).

Are you etching the enamel before using the SE Bond?

Best wishes,
Fawks

> Why do you switch back and forth?  Isn't it easier just to use one brand of
> bonding agent?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I wish they had a dual-cure activator though.
NOYB - 21 Feb 2005 21:58 GMT
> I have used Bond 1 for years with great success.  I am just not
> comfortable making a complete jump to SE Bond *yet*.  Every
> *deep* restoration that comes back feeling fine does tip me in
> that direction though (plus it works well with the laser).
>
> Are you etching the enamel before using the SE Bond?

Sometimes.  In conservative class I and Class II preps, no.  In all class
IV's and V's, and large class II's and III's, yes.  If I'm concerned about
contamination of the dentin from a prior restorative material (ie--removing
a base beneath an old amalgam, or removing cavit from the access chamber of
an RCT), I etch for 10 seconds (maximum).

I like the heavier viscosity of the SE Bond (similar to Optibond).  I'm a
big fan of ethanol based bonding agents.  The acetone ones are too thin for
my liking, and are more technique sensitive ("wet bonding" for proper
adhesion).  I have no problem dessicating dentin before applying SE Bond.

BTW--if you haven't tried it, add Parkell's Add & Bond to your
armamentarium.  It bonds to enamel or old composite (not dentin, however).
It's great for adding composite to the margins of temporaries (Jet, Snap, or
any of the bis-GMA's) to seal any voids.  It's also great for adding
composite to acrylic of a denture.  I've used it to add composite to the
occlusal surfaces of the teeth on an old denture in order to restore VDO "on
the cheap".  It also works well if you notice a void at the margin of an
older composite, or if a marginal ridge ditches out when you're removing
your matrix.
George Chatzipetros - 21 Feb 2005 18:01 GMT
Ok then, more questions for those experienced in bondodontics ans
wanting to share some of their wisdom with a young, naibe practitioner
like me.
      I've heard many good things about simplicity, especially about
the etching pattern. Is it really that good?
      Kureyra has a bonding agent named Clearfil S3. I don't know if
it's new (perhaps a descendant of Clearfil SE?), but from what I've
read in the brochure it is a one-bottle SE system. It seems similar ot
ibond (in that it's one bottle only) but the application is easier and
quicker (20 secs, then dry, then cure for 10 secs). Any input?
      Today I grabbed ibond and tossed it to the garbage bin after
spending the weekend reading horror stories on dental town. I'm going
back to my trusted One-Step until it's finished, but I will soon need a
bonding agent. Please help me make a good choice!

George
Steven Fawks - 21 Feb 2005 20:26 GMT
From Gordon C.'s testing, Clearfil SE Bond had the best combination
of dentin and enamel bond strengths (for SE materials).  Numbers for
Clearfil SE were 43.7 MPa to dentin and 28.5 to cut enamel (no separate
etch).  iBond came in at 23.5 and 21.4 respectively.  Simplicity rated
36.6 and 23.3.  Better than iBond, but still quite a bit lower than
Clearfil SE.

For comparison, Optibond Solo Plus (total etch material) gave 54.0 to
dentin and 29.1 to enamel.

IME, it is easy to use and while I thought I had good results with
Bond 1, I have even better sensitivity reports with Clearfil SE.  I
haven't completely given up Bond 1 (total etch), but I may not reorder
when the current supply is gone.

Fawks

>        Kureyra has a bonding agent named Clearfil S3. I don't know if
> it's new (perhaps a descendant of Clearfil SE?), but from what I've
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> George
NOYB - 21 Feb 2005 22:10 GMT
> From Gordon C.'s testing, Clearfil SE Bond had the best combination
> of dentin and enamel bond strengths (for SE materials).  Numbers for
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> For comparison, Optibond Solo Plus (total etch material) gave 54.0 to
> dentin and 29.1 to enamel.

I was thinking of switching to Optibond Solo Plus because they offer a
self-cure activator.  But SE Bond works so well, I'm reluctant to change.
Steven Fawks - 21 Feb 2005 23:18 GMT
We get to the point of "how much is enough?".  Right now, I'm
not sure that we know for sure.  I don't remember the source,
but 'someone' once said anything over 30 MPa was not helpful.
Is 25 enough?  Which materials are the least technique sensitive?

I used SE Bond several times today.  Like I said, I'm leaning more and
more that way.

Best wishes,
Fawks

>>From Gordon C.'s testing, Clearfil SE Bond had the best combination
>>of dentin and enamel bond strengths (for SE materials).  Numbers for
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I was thinking of switching to Optibond Solo Plus because they offer a
> self-cure activator.  But SE Bond works so well, I'm reluctant to change.
 
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