Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / January 2005
What is CEREC?
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James E. - 25 Jan 2005 20:13 GMT My prospective new dentist boasts about his new CEREC. If it is so superior to other restorations, why isn't every dentist using it? Cost? Performance? Is it really an improvement?
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Dr Steve - 25 Jan 2005 20:18 GMT Most offices don't have it because the office is afraid of the price of the technology and the fact that they would have to learn something new.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
> My prospective new dentist boasts about his new CEREC. If it is so > superior to other restorations, why isn't every dentist using it? Cost? > Performance? Is it really an improvement? W_B - 25 Jan 2005 20:42 GMT >Most offices don't have it because the office is afraid of the price of the >technology and the fact that they would have to learn something new. Disagree.
The technology is gawd awful expensive. --
W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr Steve - 25 Jan 2005 21:14 GMT The monthly payment is less than the lab bill it replaces.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
> >>Most offices don't have it because the office is afraid of the price of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com W_B - 25 Jan 2005 21:40 GMT >The monthly payment is less than the lab bill it replaces. Not in my practice. --
W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dr Steve - 25 Jan 2005 23:53 GMT Then, factor in the second appointment costs as well. I thin it works out to 6-7 units a month to break even. Of course, that depends on how long your second appointments are and what your hourly overhead is.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
> >>The monthly payment is less than the lab bill it replaces. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com StovePipe - 26 Jan 2005 03:37 GMT > The monthly payment is less than the lab bill it replaces. This is IT in a nutshell. This statement is what pushed me in the direction of the Laser vs the CEREC. I don't mind learning something new as far as concepts go. I was more of an operative guy that a crown and bridge guy, so lab bills don't cut it as arguements.
Unfortunately, it is the patient who must pay for the technology, unless the practitioner does a HUGE number of units.
The sad fact is that either of these technologies MUST pay for themselves. One has to wonder if the OP's dentist has really masterd the technology, and if he is in a financial and patient-base situation where he can do many units per day. At least, ask to see his work, at least in pictures. If he's just starting out, I'd wait a bit. One other question would be how many units he has done vs the time he has had the machine.
Hope this Helps SP
 Signature Not a real Addy, yet
Dr Steve - 26 Jan 2005 12:10 GMT I refuse to keep a journal of the best images of the CEREC's I have done to show new patients. Instead, I go to the Schedule and back up one day at a time, and show the *last* 2-3 CEREC's I have done. That is a more realistic demonstration of what actually gets done daily.
 Signature ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA ....................................................
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ......................
> >> The monthly payment is less than the lab bill it replaces. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Hope this Helps > SP Krzysztof Polanowski - 26 Jan 2005 18:42 GMT Hey Guys questiuon was about Cerec.. I think dear James isnt patient perhaps somebody from dental business or dentist who wants to improve his knowledge
regards
>I refuse to keep a journal of the best images of the CEREC's I have done to >show new patients. Instead, I go to the Schedule and back up one day at a [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> Hope this Helps >> SP StovePipe - 29 Jan 2005 07:36 GMT > I refuse to keep a journal of the best images of the CEREC's I have done to > show new patients. Instead, I go to the Schedule and back up one day at a > time, and show the *last* 2-3 CEREC's I have done. That is a more > realistic demonstration of what actually gets done daily. That is a very good idea... If I ever do get automated, I'll keep that in mind... Cheers SP
 Signature Not a real Addy, yet
Roy Brown - 29 Jan 2005 21:44 GMT | > I refuse to keep a journal of the best images of the CEREC's I have done to | > show new patients. Instead, I go to the Schedule and back up one day at a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | Cheers | SP There is a Cerec 3 system on eBay right now at a substantial savings. Hint, Hint.
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Dr. Steve - 29 Jan 2005 23:07 GMT >| > I refuse to keep a journal of the best images of the CEREC's I have done to >| > show new patients. Instead, I go to the Schedule and back up one day at a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >There is a Cerec 3 system on eBay right now at a substantial savings. Hint, >Hint. If that is the one I checked on eBay, there is no mention of software or hardware upgrades, so buyer needs to verify if the system has been upgraded to work with CEREC 3D or not. That could add a couple thousand more to the price. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA
I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
StovePipe - 30 Jan 2005 05:15 GMT > >There is a Cerec 3 system on eBay right now at a substantial savings. Hint, > >Hint. > > If that is the one I checked on eBay, there is no mention of software > or hardware upgrades... I've put the eBay description down under my response (Rant) here, for those who want to read it. Or, you can go here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31458&item=387010 8763&rd=1
It seems it is indeed a CEREC 3D, and the idiot simply lost interest, due to the 'learning curve'.
Right now, it stands at about 45,100$US, the reserve is not yet met, we're already at half-price, there are 6 days left, and it is in Fort Myers, Fla.. There are shipping charges and the Kaannaaddiaan Gov't will want a real big piece of it as well... (Customs; read: Leagalized Thievery).
Now: What kind of adelpated CLOWN, practicing in a rich state in the US of A (read: people with $$$ and insurance), decides to invest and then blow it off? Can he really be that rich that he can afford to do this? Me, I'm in an area with a lot of cheap retirees who fret and sweat trying to get their pennies together to get that NTI that they desparately need... Maybe I, like SFawks, must revise my prices to keep my patient base able to buy my services? If they say 'No' to 400$ Kanadian dollarettes for an NTI, how the HELL will they say 'Yes' to a restoration that is about four times what they presently have on/in any given tooth?
I went down this road with the Famous BIOLASE MILLENNIUM LASER...... and the sad truth is that my unwashed masses will not pay enough for its use to permit me to get it fixed or upgraded. Steve Jobs (Apple II -> Macintosh) would have been proud...
Biolase users: BEWARE! Get a five-year guaranteed service contract NOW, lest you fall into the same boat, now that the newest Laser is being pushed.
Let's face it: Those of you who use the Laser or the CEREC (and other high-tech sewing machines) do so because you have patient bases that permit you to afford those toys. You live in the sectors of 'Yes'.
Do ya come from the land of Yessuh? Where women know 'at men drill huh Can Ya hear, Can Ya hear the thundah? Ya better better yawn; Ya better floss harduh...
Sorry; must be the meds....
I don't even want to THINK about what 65,000$US works out to in our own funny money... (That's the 'Buy it Now' price).
Some of you may remember my crying in my beer about how I was f--ked over by Ash Temple when I bought the Laser, and more recently f--ked over by my good buddies at Biolase.com, who smuggly decided to deep six my (old model) Laser instead of supporting it till I wanted to upgrade. Steve Jobs (kill: Apple II -> create: Macintosh) would have been proud...
Make no mistake: I now KNOW how dearly one pays for buying used technology: In this case, Patterson would want a piece of me but good.
It ain't gonna happen with CEREC: If I must depend on a technology for my existance, I'm sunk, period. If I buy a CEREC, at ANY price, I'm gonna have to SELL in/onlays-crowns to pay for it. Nicht, nein, nyet, non and NO... My unwashed masses will not bite (literally).
For those few that WILL say 'yes', there is a nice friendly (albeit horrendously overpriced) dental lab that will gladly scan my impression and send me an onlay... even the same day, if I want.
No, my friends, if my market develops a DEMAND for CEREC or Laser, I will respond. As long as I must SELL those technologies to survive, I am in the same trouble as the airlines are in now. Cheers SP ---------------------------------- Description Product Information:
The modular CEREC 3, consisting of a separate acquisition unit, infrared camera, and milling unit, adapts to a wide variety of practice configurations. These tools combined with state of the art CEREC 3D software allow dentists to create perfect fitting, aesthetically pleasing, ceramic restorations in one office visit
Features and Benifits:
Wouldn't it be great if you could provide patients with strong, lasting restorations without temporaries in just one appointment? Would you like to be in complete control of your restorations from preparation to placement? Would you like to reduce overhead costs, reduce cancelled appointments, and increase profits?
This Item was bought brand new, has barely been used and is in excellent condition.
Answers to possible questions:
Age of Unit?: About 2 years old, but has only been used for 6 months of that time; How Many mills?: We have had to changed the milling diamond only twice. Why selling?: Although it makes beautiful restorations, the doctor lost interest due to the learning curve.
The origional purchase price in 2003 was $95,395.
But we can sacrafice to sell it at $65,000 ------------------------------------------------ ...Gee, thanks.... SOUL sacrifice....
 Signature Not a real Addy, yet
Roy Brown - 30 Jan 2005 06:24 GMT snip
| I've put the eBay description down under my response (Rant) here, for | those who want to read it. Or, you can go here: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] | want a real big piece of it as well... (Customs; read: Leagalized | Thievery). You forgot that the kwebek government will take a piece as well..
snip
| ... Maybe I, like SFawks, must revise my prices to keep | my patient base able to buy my services? If they say 'No' to 400$ | Kanadian dollarettes for an NTI, how the HELL will they say 'Yes' to a | restoration that is about four times what they presently have on/in any | given tooth? Point taken!
| I don't even want to THINK about what 65,000$US works out to in our own | funny money... (That's the 'Buy it Now' price). Aboot $81,000 dollarettes or 1620 pictures of the new*** mounted firing squad. With shipping, taxes, brokerage fees and exchange fees I'd guess an even $100,000 or 2000 of the red bills respectively.
| It ain't gonna happen with CEREC: If I must depend on a technology for | my existance, I'm sunk, period. If I buy a CEREC, at ANY price, I'm [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | horrendously overpriced) dental lab that will gladly scan my impression | and send me an onlay... even the same day, if I want.
| No, my friends, if my market develops a DEMAND for CEREC or Laser, I | will respond. As long as I must SELL those technologies to survive, I am [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | Description | Product Information: snip
| The origional purchase price in 2003 was $95,395. | | But we can sacrafice to sell it at $65,000 | ------------------------------------------------ | ...Gee, thanks.... SOUL sacrifice.... Ich verstehen.
 Signature Roy rem NADA to reply
Dr. Steve - 30 Jan 2005 21:48 GMT >> >There is a Cerec 3 system on eBay right now at a substantial savings. Hint, >> >Hint. [quoted text clipped - 108 lines] >------------------------------------------------ >...Gee, thanks.... SOUL sacrifice.... It looks like a good deal. I would ask for a Patterson inspection prior to buying. The monthly support for a C 3D is about $150 a month. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA
I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting.
StovePipe - 31 Jan 2005 05:06 GMT > >The origional purchase price in 2003 was $95,395. > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. > Troy, Michigan, USA ... Well... If I did that, who's to say they don't jump the purchase on me and then re-sell it. Again, the Kanadian Kustoms would be very high on that.... Still..... <sigh> Thanks SP
 Signature Not a real Addy, yet
Roy Brown - 30 Jan 2005 05:59 GMT "Dr. Steve" wrote : "Roy Brown" wrote:
| >There is a Cerec 3 system on eBay right now at a substantial savings. Hint, | >Hint. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | | I am writing on a Tablet-PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my handwriting. This is the one I was referring to:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31458&item=3870108763
Listing reads: Package includes: 1 Sirona Cerec Milling Unit #6331
1 Sirona Cerec Acquisition Unit #4031
plus the Cerec 3D software. (Last update, Oct 2004)
also note: many of the necessary supplies will be provided with the unit (eg. Porcelon blocks, powder, etc.)
Currently at $41.5 K USD - "Buy it Now" @ $65 K
 Signature Roy rem NADA to reply
W_B - 25 Jan 2005 20:23 GMT >My prospective new dentist boasts about his new CEREC. If it is so superior >to other restorations, why isn't every dentist using it? Cost.
>Cost? Yep you got it.
> Performance? No
>Is it really an improvement? It is considered such by many --
W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
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