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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / December 2004Replacement dentures
Hi everyone, I have been lurking but this is my first post. I just not replacement dentures and I am unhappy. I need to know if my expectations are unreasonable or if I need to ask my dentist to adjust them. I would really appreciate any help because I just spent $3000 for a set of dentures that are no improvement over the last pair (except they are whiter). I have had dentures for 6 years and this is my second replacement. I had developed lines at the corners of my mouth and vertical lines all around my mouth, plus I was overclosing and could not chew on my back teeth. I went to a general dentist, and at the tryin I told him I wanted more lip support so he sent me to the dental techinician who worked on the dentures, moved the teeth forward, widened the arch, and increased the vertical height, so I was very happy. Today i got the final set and they do not look or fit like the day in the dental lab. Do they shrink a lot during the final processing? I told the dentist I wanted more lip support and he said it was not possible. So I guess I am wondering if this is true and I am being unrealistic? Is my mouth just going to sink farther in as I age (until I can afford implants)? Or, do I need to ask them to add some acrylic on the outside of the based to try to get more lip support? This is all very disheartening and I don't want to bother the dentist/be a pain so I don't know quite what to do. Also, today he charged my an additional $500 for the lab visit and because I had 2 more visits than usual. He had not warned me about this charge until I came to the final visit. I didn't think this was fair but don't really know what is right either. Again, I really appreciate any advice/suggestions you could give me. I could just cry at this point. Thanks PS- Thanks for posting ,,, stick with this and things wil lwork out for you. Joel >Again, I really appreciate any advice/suggestions you could give me. I >could just cry at this point. > >Thanks >Hi everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >dentures that are no improvement over the last pair (except they are >whiter). Sad to say, this is a frequent occurrence. Your old set are your old friends, so to say. >I have had dentures for 6 years and this is my second replacement. I >had developed lines at the corners of my mouth and vertical lines all [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >increased the vertical height, so I was very happy. Today i got the >final set and they do not look or fit like the day in the dental lab. What does the Doc say? >Do they shrink a lot during the final processing? I told the dentist I >wanted more lip support and he said it was not possible. Could be ..... why not post a photo with the old set in place and then another one with the new set in place. We can provide the opinion of fifty dentists (between here and a few other dental sites). >So I guess I am wondering if this is true and I am being unrealistic? >Is my mouth just going to sink farther in as I age (until I can afford >implants)? Or, do I need to ask them to add some acrylic on the outside >of the based to try to get more lip support? Usually tooth postion is what provides fullness. >This is all very >disheartening and I don't want to bother the dentist/be a pain so I >don't know quite what to do. Got to change that. If I paid $3K for some plastic replacements I would not mind mentioning my dissatisfaction to the dentist. >Also, today he charged my an additional $500 for the lab visit and >because I had 2 more visits than usual. He had not warned me about this >charge until I came to the final visit. I didn't think this was fair >but don't really know what is right either. OK, you got to get to ground zero with him. Dentures include adjustments, extra visits, etc. Joel OUTRAGEOUS! >Again, I really appreciate any advice/suggestions you could give me. I >could just cry at this point. > >Thanks The fee's confuse me. Did you pay $2500 + 500 = $3000 or $3000 + 500 = $3500? A fee for an unplanned lab visit is reasonable, but not $500. An extra fee for extra appointments is unreasonable if you mentioned your wishes and they were acknowledged in the beginning. Acrylic can be added, should be done so at no charge considering you had been to the lab previously. You made no mention of whether or not the teeth were in the same position. Were they or was all the difference in the denture base alone? Considering the lab was directly involved they should be taking some of the responsibility. If you were in my office at this point, I would consider using a functional impression material to refit the denture and bulk out the denture at the same time. Then I would rebase the denture. The fit is usually better on the finished product, rather than the try in, depending on the technique. Minor discrepancies can occur during curing of the denture and minor changes happen during the first 2 weeks or so due to water sorption. Write down your concerns, divorce yourself from your emotions and talk to your dentist to see if something can be resolved. Short answer is if you can't resolve this with your dentist, or they can't resolve it the lab then either you need to find a new dentist or they need to find a new lab. Based solely on your story, your dentist is being unreasonable. But there are two sides to every story... Keep us posted on the sequence of events.  SignatureRoy rem NADA to reply | Hi everyone, | [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] | | Thanks Thanks for the feedback. The fee's confuse me. > Did you pay $2500 + 500 = $3000 > or $3000 + 500 = $3500? As to the fees: I paid $242- half up front and half today. On the final bill was an additional charge for $550.00, so the total is $2970.00. I was rounding figures before. Based solely on your story, your dentist is being unreasonable. But there are > two sides to every story... Yes there are two sides to every story, and honestly the whole situation is confusing to me so I understand your questioning of the situation. My confusion is why I wanted advice. I am not an unreasonable person- very easy to get along with and never had a problem with dentists or the two previous sets of dentures before ( in a different town now so can't go back to the old dentist)so I don't understand what is going on, and am not sure how to handle this. I want to trust my dentist and am tempted just to take the teeth "as is" and try to accept that they are the best they can be (because that would be easier than being assertive) but it is hard to spend $3000 on something that is no better than my old set. A fee for an unplanned lab visit is reasonable, but not $500. > An extra fee for extra appointments is unreasonable if you mentioned your wishes > and they were acknowledged in the beginning. As to the additional fee, the dentist said $272.00 of the $550 was an additional fee charged by the lab (no one told me before today that cost extra money either), $68 was for greyhound charges (the lab is 2 hours away and at first we were trying to hurry the process up so were shipping by bus) and the rest he says is for additional visits he did not include in his initial assessment. He never said the process only included a certain number of visits. The reasons we had additional visits was one time I had told him I wanted them not to be completely cosmetic looking, so they set them up unevenly in wax, and I did not like that ( I meant I wanted some smaller, some turned a little- not longer and shorter). Another time the wax got too thin from him working on it ( and it was 5 pm) so he asked me to return the next week. It does not appear the teeth are in the same position as when in the wax. At the lab, after they adjusted things, the teeth were behind my lip and supported both the top and bottom teeth so they "filled out" some on the wrinkles. The dental tech also moved the teeth "out" so they filled out my cheeks more. I know the teeth moved because when I tried on the "final" product at the lab, my mouth felt full and I was feeling like drooling, and we discussed that it would take me time to get used to the feeling and would need to practice speaking (which I fully expected and thought to be part of a normal readjustment). The whole reason I went to the lab (and for getting the new dentures in the first place), was that my teeth appeared to be receding or getting farther back from my lips- like my face was sinking in. In fact, I have been having my lips injected with collagen in the last year- not for bigger lips, but just to maintain some kind of lip border. WIthout the collagen I would have no lips at all right now with the new or old dentures, and I used to have full lips. At the wax tryin at the dentist, the teeth were still too far back, and I was still overclosing, and my dentists said he could not move the teeth farther "out" or towards my teeth without my looking like I had a nightguard in my mouth. He then sent me to the lab because he said it would be easier for me to communicate with them directly and easier for them if they could see me up close. When I went to the lab, the tech and owner reworked the teeth three times. The widened the arch, and moved the teeth closed to my lips. They also decided to move the back teeth closer to my cheeks to give me more cheeks support/fill out my face. They looked so good when I left that I cried because I looked much better and even younger. They also retested the vertical and increased that slightly. So when I got the new ones today I was shocked that they did not appear to be set like the "changed" ones or "final" wax tryins they had done at the lab. THey appeared to be more like the was tryins before I went to the lab. The suction or fit is fine inside (like I said I have big ridges) so the only problem except for minor corrections is that they still do not give my lips any support. The fit in terms of staying in my mouth is much better- the wax ones were loose and we had to glue them in. I guess I want to know if I am being unreasonable. I know you all see patients that drive you crazy and I do not want to be one of them. However, I also do not want to be so passive that I give up and end up spending $3000 on something I will never wear. It is hard to stand up for myself, but this is a lot of money, and a lot of time and hope invested. If what I want is unreasonable then I will accept that. Maybe people's lips just sink in more and more. But, if this is not true, and maybe the dentist is just not that experienced with dentures, then I would appreciate knowing that too. I don't want to sue him or anything, I just want to look halfway decent for the money I've spent. Sorry to go on for so long but I am trying to better explain my situation. Thanks again . > The fee's confuse me. > Did you pay $2500 + 500 = $3000 [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > | > | Thanks Whoops. I paid $1210 up front, and another $1210 today. He billed me the additional $550 today as well. That helps, I'll reply to your other post after I've had some sleep and been able to digest it. SignatureRoy rem NADA to reply | Whoops. I paid $1210 up front, and another $1210 today. He billed me | the additional $550 today as well. >That helps, I'll reply to your other post after I've had some sleep and been >able to digest it. Printed it out and ate it ? A good source of fiber I suppose. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com | I don't | understand what is going on, and am not sure how to handle this. I want | to trust my dentist and am tempted just to take the teeth "as is" and | try to accept that they are the best they can be (because that would be | easier than being assertive) If you are not happy now, if nothing changes, you won't be happy later. You don't have to be openly assertive to negotiate a solution to the problem. . | As to the additional fee, the dentist said $272.00 of the $550 was an | additional fee charged by the lab (no one told me before today that | cost extra money either), $68 was for greyhound charges (the lab is 2 | hours away and at first we were trying to hurry the process up so were | shipping by bus) and the rest he says is for additional visits he did | not include in his initial assessment. Labs do charge for resetting teeth, which is reasonable and the additional shipping is also reasonable. Extra billing for extra procedures is also reasonable. Yes they should have told you before the fact. That is your issue, not the fees. | It does not appear the teeth are in the same position as when in the | wax. At the lab, after they adjusted things, the teeth were behind my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | tried on the "final" product at the lab, my mouth felt full and I was | feeling like drooling Not that it helps, but I almost always slightly "tweak" the position of the teeth or the wax after moving teeth at try in. Typically we move the front (or social) six teeth during try in to optimize appearance. Afterwards we move the back teeth in line for functional purposes since they work in harmony with the front. Major changes necessitate another try in. Hurrying up the process may have played a role in deciding not to do this. An overzealous trimmer or polisher may have removed some of the support the owner and technician had worked so hard to create. | When I went to the lab, the tech and owner reworked the teeth three | times. The widened the arch, and moved the teeth closed to my lips. | They also decided to move the back teeth closer to my cheeks to give me | more cheeks support/fill out my face. They looked so good when I left | that I cried because I looked much better and even younger. They also | retested the vertical and increased that slightly. Don't you think that was worth a couple of hundred? I know they didn't tell you and that is the problem. | the only problem except for minor corrections is that they | still do not give my lips any support This seems to me to be your major problem. If they could fix this would you be happy with the extra fees, or split the extra fees? (From the Devil's Advocate ... "Are we negotiating?" ... "Always"). Here is a suggestion, ask your dentist if you can get a couple of stick of soft wax (called tray, periphery or ortho wax). It will stick to your denture, softens under warm tap water and can be easily moulded. You can add some onto the pink part of your denture in the areas you don't think give you enough lip support and reshape it until you find something you are happy with. A millimetre or two in the right spots can make the world of difference, and it won't damage the denture. Then bring the denture back to the dentist and ask if your modifications could be safely incorporated into the denture base. That way you are not taking up too much of his time while you are getting the "right" look. The lab can then use the wax as a guide to make the changes. | If what I want is unreasonable then I will accept that. Maybe | people's lips just sink in more and more. But, if this is not true, and | maybe the dentist is just not that experienced with dentures, then I | would appreciate knowing that too. Without seeing you, we cannot say what is possible or not, or what is reasonable. Can you get some pictures of you with your new and old dentures in place? Front and side views, just like mug shots. A shot or two of the new dentures out of your mouth from various angles with a ruler showing would also help. Alternatively get a 2nd opinion in person to put your mind at ease. If you were to say where you were from, maybe someone here could have a look or be able to suggest someone. You have not mentioned your age, but lips don't sink in unless what is supporting them changes. What does happen is that muscle tone and lip volume decrease with age. That is what you collagen injections are addressing. Did you mention the collagen to the dentist in the beginning? Gravity, time, and aging are not kind. We can turn back the clock a bit, but we cannot perform miracles without compromise. SignatureRoy rem NADA to reply | Thanks for the feedback. | [quoted text clipped - 189 lines] | > | | > | Thanks >Labs do charge for resetting teeth, which is reasonable and the additional >shipping is also reasonable. Extra billing for extra procedures is also >reasonable. Yes they should have told you before the fact. That is your issue, >not the fees. I think the doc should swallow any fees that are necessary to make it right. So far, I have not heard back from Margaret. BAD SIGN. Joel When I got my dentures I paid of course up front (insurance amount negotiated with him) and then I had free time with him to make adjustments necessary until I was comfortable and the teeth stayed in place. The only thing I wish I could find was a dentist that didn't have to take days to have dentures done at a lab and had the lab on the premises. Haven't figured this one out yet on how to know. But adjustments, my dentist can do though he is lousy about breaking clips on the bridge. UM MOM Susan > | I don't > | understand what is going on, and am not sure how to handle this. I want [quoted text clipped - 301 lines] > | > | > | > | Thanks Thank you all so much for your reponses. Yesterday I went back to the dentist and he made a few adjustments (sore spots). I told him I was disappointed that they did not appear to be in the same position as at the final try-in, and that I still wanted more lip support. I asked him if we could add some acrylic to the outside to give more lip support, and he said that if I came back after CHristmas we could do that with wax and send back to the lab to reprocess. As to the fees, you are right. I would not mind paying additional fees if I were happy with the dentures. I told him that yesterday. He wanted me to pay the additional fee yesterday but I told him that I would pay him once we added the lip support. He said "we're not going to keep on open contract forever", and I said "of course not, but I have already paid $2400 and they are not right so I would prefer to not pay more until they are right". I think we will be able to find a solution to this. As to my age I am in my mid 40's. I'm not talking perfect lips, I know I am again, but I also don't need to look like I have no lips either (like when my dentures are out). Thank you all again for you support. I was very upset at first, and your help helped me deal with this to a (hopefully) good conclusion. > When I got my dentures I paid of course up front (insurance amount > negotiated with him) and then I had free time with him to make adjustments > necessary until I was comfortable and the teeth stayed in place. The only > thing I wish I could find was a dentist that didn't have to take days to > have dentures done at a lab and had the lab on the premises. Haven't > figured this one out yet on how to know. But adjustments, my dentist can do > though he is lousy about breaking clips on the bridge. UM MOM Susan [quoted text clipped - 307 lines] > > | > | > > | > | Thanks >Thank you all so much for your reponses. Yesterday I went back to the >dentist and he made a few adjustments (sore spots). I told him I was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >and he said that if I came back after CHristmas we could do that with >wax and send back to the lab to reprocess. Generally speaking, dentures are not replacements for "face lifts." Adding the acrylic may or may not help. Go slowly here. Better confirm fees and costs beforehand. Joel >As to the fees, you are right. I would not mind paying additional fees >if I were happy with the dentures. I told him that yesterday. He wanted [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >paid $2400 and they are not right so I would prefer to not pay more >until they are right". Did he agree to this? __YES __ NO >I think we will be able to find a solution to this. As to my age I am >in my mid 40's. Okay weait am inute,,, what age when you had your extractions and first dentures? >I'm not talking perfect lips, I know I am again, but I >also don't need to look like I have no lips either (like when my [quoted text clipped - 471 lines] >> > | > | >> > | > | Thanks 38. I am not expecting a face lift or miracle cure for wrinkles- but my last dentures (as my bone resorbed) moved farther and farther back from my teeth. These are closer but are still far back. As to me not paying him the additional $550 until we are finished, he was mad (I think). I was very nice about it and although he said that about the open contract, he agreed. > >Thank you all so much for your reponses. Yesterday I went back to the > >dentist and he made a few adjustments (sore spots). I told him I was [quoted text clipped - 439 lines] > >> > | > > >> > | > "Margaret" <pturandot2004@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1103229434.564113.166330@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > >> > | > | Hi everyone, > >> > | > | [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > >> > | > | > >> > | > | Thanks >38. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >was mad (I think). I was very nice about it and although he said that >about the open contract, he agreed. Why not post some photos that are cut off above the noseline ...... for anonymity? One pic with the old set another with the new set. Then you will get profesisonal opinions ,,, about your chief complaint. Joel >> >Thank you all so much for your reponses. Yesterday I went back to >the [quoted text clipped - 618 lines] >> >> > | > | >> >> > | > | Thanks >When I got my dentures I paid of course up front (insurance amount >negotiated with him) and then I had free time with him to make adjustments >necessary until I was comfortable and the teeth stayed in place. This is as it should be. This is why the fees are decent. Joel > The only >thing I wish I could find was a dentist that didn't have to take days to >have dentures done at a lab and had the lab on the premises. Bad idea. They are usally bait-and-switch rip off places. Anyone who needs it TODAY is going to PAY! Joel >Haven't >figured this one out yet on how to know. But adjustments, my dentist can do [quoted text clipped - 304 lines] >> | > | >> | > | Thanks Sounds fishy, but I only heard one side of the story. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > Hi everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Thanks |
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