Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / December 2004
Carabelli's USDA fluoride file
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Joel M. Eichen - 14 Dec 2004 13:58 GMT Carabelli, thanks!
You supplied,
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/Fluoride/fluoride.pdf
I couldn't find your thread so I started a new thread. Here are some points for Keri, if she has not fainted yet.
Those are mcgs (micrograms) not milligrams.
There are 1,000 micrograms in one milligram.
PPM is parts per million.
If the minicipal water supply has ONE ppm, then that's one MILLIgram per liter (A liter is around one quart).
ADA claims 0.7 to 1.3 mg per day FLUORIDE.
0.7 milligrams is 700 micrograms .......
Joel
Joel M. Eichen - 14 Dec 2004 14:47 GMT I think Carabelli got it right .... its all over absorption, not what is in the water in the first place.
It has been empirically dertermined (by simple observation) that one PPM is safe enough yet protects teeth.
That means 0.5 fluoride PPM if the natural water contains another 0.5 PPM.
Just a guess,,,, Jan Drew will be here shortly to correct our misconceptions!
AND to STOP OUR LY-ying .......
Joel
>Carabelli, thanks! > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Joel Sdores - 14 Dec 2004 14:51 GMT Ok., question, you drink say a lot of water, and it goes out the normal way (trying to use tact) how much fluoride would you absorb then? UM MOM Susan,ps Joel please call me Susan I use the UM MOM because there are so many Susan's.
>I think Carabelli got it right .... its all over absorption, not what > is in the water in the first place. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> >>Joel Joel M. Eichen - 14 Dec 2004 14:52 GMT >Ok., question, you drink say a lot of water, and it goes out the normal way >(trying to use tact) how much fluoride would you absorb then? UM MOM >Susan,ps Joel please call me Susan I use the UM MOM because there are so >many Susan's. Hi Susan,
I do not know if too many of those studies have been done ...... (still being tactful) .........
(Although that stuff is all over the internet. People are QUITE amazing. LESS TACTFUL ......)
But its got to be a consideration, or else we would all be poisoned by ONE ppm fluoride!
Joel
>>I think Carabelli got it right .... its all over absorption, not what >> is in the water in the first place. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >>> >>>Joel Sdores - 14 Dec 2004 15:52 GMT Joel, just my point! UM MOM Susan
>>Ok., question, you drink say a lot of water, and it goes out the normal >>way [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] >>>> >>>>Joel Peter Meiers - 14 Dec 2004 19:11 GMT > I think Carabelli got it right .... its all over absorption, not what > is in the water in the first place. > > It has been empirically dertermined (by simple observation) that one > PPM is safe enough yet protects teeth. Simple observation? Manipulated epidemiology!!
> That means 0.5 fluoride PPM if the natural water contains another 0.5 > PPM. Uhhh? 0.5 ppm where ?? - ... if the water contains another 0.5 ppm? You still compare apples with oranges.
If the water contains 0.5 ppm fluoride, you´ll take up 0.5 mg if you ingest just one liter (including the amount of water you use for coffee or cooking your food). If your grapes contain 0.5 ppm fluoride, you´ll ingest another 0.5 mg fluoride only if you eat one kg of grapes. Not to speak about tea.
> Just a guess,,,, Jan Drew will be here shortly to correct our > misconceptions! I´m not Jan Drew, anyway. And I wouldn´t say you´re lying. Though you could know better by now (that concentration and dose are different things).
Peter
 Signature -History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- - Fluor. Auf den Spuren eines Wundermittels - : --http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/deutsch/index.htm-- ----------------------------------------------------
Joel M. Eichen - 14 Dec 2004 19:25 GMT >> I think Carabelli got it right .... its all over absorption, not what >> is in the water in the first place. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Simple observation? Manipulated epidemiology!! I mean me!
I have observed stronger teeth in several locations after fluoridation! And I have checked the Water Department's literature from time to time.
And very little tooth mottling!
Joel
>> That means 0.5 fluoride PPM if the natural water contains another 0.5 >> PPM. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Peter Joel M. Eichen - 14 Dec 2004 19:26 GMT >> I think Carabelli got it right .... its all over absorption, not what >> is in the water in the first place. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Uhhh? 0.5 ppm where ?? - ... if the water contains another 0.5 ppm? >You still compare apples with oranges. In Philadelphia for example. They add 0.5 PPM or sometimes 0.3 PPM depending on what the testing determines.
Joel
>If the water contains 0.5 ppm fluoride, you´ll take up 0.5 mg if you >ingest just one liter (including the amount of water you use for coffee [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Peter Joel M. Eichen - 14 Dec 2004 19:27 GMT >> I think Carabelli got it right .... its all over absorption, not what >> is in the water in the first place. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >ingest another 0.5 mg fluoride only if you eat one kg of grapes. Not to >speak about tea. One kg of grapes? That would be ummmmmmmmm at 350 mV per grape ,,,,,,, UMMMMMMMMM. 25 grapes!
Joel
>> Just a guess,,,, Jan Drew will be here shortly to correct our >> misconceptions! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Peter Joel M. Eichen - 14 Dec 2004 19:29 GMT >I´m not Jan Drew, anyway. And I wouldn´t say you´re lying. Though you >could know better by now (that concentration and dose are different >things). > >Peter I am still LY-ying .......... because Jan Drew is going to blame me anyway.
PS- I wonder what the fluoride content is in de-NILE?
Joel
Keri - 15 Dec 2004 03:47 GMT This link would be great if I had any idea how to read that table. What the heck is "EB" and confidence codes?
Keri
Joel M. Eichen - 15 Dec 2004 03:56 GMT >This link would be great if I had any idea how to read that table. >What the heck is "EB" and confidence codes? > >Keri On the right are the references for the study and where it was published.
In all studies they must describe how they got their samples and how they measured it. A statistical description is "confidence levels."
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Samples were collected in up to 144 locations across the country, depending on the level of contribution to fluoride intake. Since drinking water accounts for approximately 75% of dietary fluoride intake, sampling of drinking water was conducted, with Office of Management and Budget approval,
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The Confidence Code (CC) was derived from the QI and is an indicator of relative quality of the data and the reliability of a given mean. The CC is assigned as follows: QI CC 75-100 A 74-50 B 49-25 C < 25 D Format of the table The table contains fluoride values for 400 foods across 23 food groups. The data were aggregated where possible to match the foods in the USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference (SR). Food groups are presented in alphabetical order with beverages and foods arranged in alphabetical order within a food group. Whenever possible, a NDB Number (No.) (a five digit numerical code used in the SR) is provided. This NDB No. provides the link between values for foods in this database and SR. As the data come from a variety of sources or are presented with specificity not used in SR, there are a number of beverages and foods which are included without a NDB No. In these cases, we assigned a temporary NDB No. which begins with 975. These temporary NDB Nos. are not unique to these beverages and foods and may be used in other special interest databases produced by NDL.
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Field Name Description Food Group Description of food group Item Description of food or beverage Mean Amount in 100 grams, edible portion Std Error Standard error of the mean. Null, if could not be calculated N Number of data points (samples analyzed). The N=1 on NFNAP data represents a composite of 12 samples Min Minimum value Max Maximum value Lower EB Lower 95% error bound Upper EB Upper 95% error bound CC Confidence code indicating data quality based on evaluations of sample plan, sample handling, analytical method, analytical quality control, and number of samples analyzed Derivation Code Code giving specific information on how the value was determined: A = Analytical data RPA = Recipe; Known formulation; No adjustments applied, combination of source codes 1, 12 and/or 6 RPI = Recipe; Known formulation; No adjustments applied, combination of source codes which includes codes other than 1, 12 or 6 Source Code Code indicating type of data 1 = Analytical or derived from analytical 6 = Aggregated data involving combinations of source codes 1 & 12 12 = Manufacturer's analytical; partial documentation Statistical Comments 1. The displayed summary statistics were computed from data containing some less-than values. Lessthan, trace, and not detected values were calculated 2. The displayed degrees of freedom were computed using Satterthwaites approximation (Korz and Johnson, 1988) 3. The procedure used to estimate the reliability of the generic mean requires that the data associated with each study be a simple random sample from all the products associated with the given data source (for example, manufacturer, variety, cultivar, and species) 4. For this nutrient, one or more data sources had only
Keri - 15 Dec 2004 04:08 GMT Okay, I'm going to print it out and maybe I can read it better that way. I still think the grapes part is way low. I just don't see how it can be true when it has tested so high in juice.
Thanks for helping me with this, Joel. I am quite surprised you are willing. Your not bad, like Jan Drew says.
Keri
Keri - 15 Dec 2004 04:31 GMT In case anyone is interested, the reason grapes have such a high level of fluoride is because they are sprayed with cryolite, which is a fluoride pesticide.
Keri
Joel M. Eichen - 15 Dec 2004 13:16 GMT >In case anyone is interested, the reason grapes have such a high level >of fluoride is because they are sprayed with cryolite, which is a >fluoride pesticide. > >Keri Interesting,,, thanks.
The Webby - 15 Dec 2004 05:11 GMT > Okay, I'm going to print it out and maybe I can read it better that > way. I still think the grapes part is way low. I just don't see how [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Keri Hmmmmm.
TW
Joel M. Eichen - 15 Dec 2004 13:15 GMT >Okay, I'm going to print it out and maybe I can read it better I bet its the reverse. Its tiny print, meaning I have to enlarge it to 150% or 200%.
The 'puter is better for reading it, although the scrolling is confusing.
Joel
> that >way. I still think the grapes part is way low. I just don't see how >it can be true when it has tested so high in juice. But besides grapes, otehr foods are even lower!
>Thanks for helping me with this, Joel. I am quite surprised you are >willing. Your not bad, like Jan Drew says. Even Jan Drew often says, "Joel is not as bad as everyone says ...."
Joel
>Keri
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