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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / December 2004

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Carabelli's USDA fluoride file

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Joel M. Eichen - 14 Dec 2004 13:58 GMT
Carabelli, thanks!

You supplied,

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/Fluoride/fluoride.pdf

I couldn't find your thread so I started a new thread. Here are some
points for Keri, if she has not fainted yet.

Those are mcgs (micrograms) not milligrams.

There are 1,000 micrograms in one milligram.

PPM is parts per million.

If the minicipal water supply has ONE ppm, then that's one MILLIgram
per liter (A liter is around one quart).

ADA claims 0.7 to 1.3 mg per day FLUORIDE.

0.7 milligrams is 700 micrograms .......

Joel
Joel M. Eichen - 14 Dec 2004 14:47 GMT
I think Carabelli got it right .... its all over absorption, not what
is in the water in the first place.

It has been empirically dertermined (by simple observation) that one
PPM is safe enough yet protects teeth.

That means 0.5 fluoride PPM if the natural water contains another 0.5
PPM.

Just a guess,,,, Jan Drew will be here shortly to correct our
misconceptions!

AND to STOP OUR LY-ying .......

Joel

>Carabelli, thanks!
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>Joel
Sdores - 14 Dec 2004 14:51 GMT
Ok., question, you drink say a lot of water, and it goes out the normal way
(trying to use tact) how much fluoride would you absorb then?  UM MOM
Susan,ps Joel please call me Susan I use the UM MOM because there are so
many Susan's.
>I think Carabelli got it right .... its all over absorption, not what
> is in the water in the first place.
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>>
>>Joel
Joel M. Eichen - 14 Dec 2004 14:52 GMT
>Ok., question, you drink say a lot of water, and it goes out the normal way
>(trying to use tact) how much fluoride would you absorb then?  UM MOM
>Susan,ps Joel please call me Susan I use the UM MOM because there are so
>many Susan's.

Hi Susan,

I do not know if too many of those studies have been done ......
(still being tactful) .........

(Although that stuff is all over the internet. People are QUITE
amazing. LESS TACTFUL ......)

But its got to be a consideration, or else we would all be poisoned by
ONE ppm fluoride!

Joel

>>I think Carabelli got it right .... its all over absorption, not what
>> is in the water in the first place.
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>>>
>>>Joel
Sdores - 14 Dec 2004 15:52 GMT
Joel, just my point!  UM MOM Susan

>>Ok., question, you drink say a lot of water, and it goes out the normal
>>way
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>>>>
>>>>Joel
Peter Meiers - 14 Dec 2004 19:11 GMT
> I think Carabelli got it right .... its all over absorption, not what
> is in the water in the first place.
>
> It has been empirically dertermined (by simple observation) that one
> PPM is safe enough yet protects teeth.

Simple observation? Manipulated epidemiology!!

> That means 0.5 fluoride PPM if the natural water contains another 0.5
> PPM.

Uhhh? 0.5 ppm where ?? - ... if the water contains another 0.5 ppm?
You still compare apples with oranges.

If the water contains 0.5 ppm fluoride, you´ll take up 0.5 mg if you
ingest just one liter (including the amount of water you use for coffee
or cooking your food). If your grapes contain 0.5 ppm fluoride, you´ll
ingest another 0.5 mg fluoride only if you eat one kg of grapes. Not to
speak about tea.

> Just a guess,,,, Jan Drew will be here shortly to correct our
> misconceptions!

I´m not Jan Drew, anyway. And I wouldn´t say you´re lying. Though you
could know better by now (that concentration and dose are different
things).

Peter

Signature

-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-:
--- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm ---
----------------------------------------------------
- Fluor. Auf den Spuren eines Wundermittels - :
--http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/deutsch/index.htm--
----------------------------------------------------

Joel M. Eichen - 14 Dec 2004 19:25 GMT
>> I think Carabelli got it right .... its all over absorption, not what
>> is in the water in the first place.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Simple observation? Manipulated epidemiology!!

I mean me!

I have observed stronger teeth in several locations after
fluoridation! And I have checked the Water Department's literature
from time to time.

And very little tooth mottling!

Joel

>> That means 0.5 fluoride PPM if the natural water contains another 0.5
>> PPM.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Peter
Joel M. Eichen - 14 Dec 2004 19:26 GMT
>> I think Carabelli got it right .... its all over absorption, not what
>> is in the water in the first place.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Uhhh? 0.5 ppm where ?? - ... if the water contains another 0.5 ppm?
>You still compare apples with oranges.

In Philadelphia for example. They add 0.5 PPM or sometimes 0.3 PPM
depending on what the testing determines.

Joel

>If the water contains 0.5 ppm fluoride, you´ll take up 0.5 mg if you
>ingest just one liter (including the amount of water you use for coffee
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Peter
Joel M. Eichen - 14 Dec 2004 19:27 GMT
>> I think Carabelli got it right .... its all over absorption, not what
>> is in the water in the first place.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>ingest another 0.5 mg fluoride only if you eat one kg of grapes. Not to
>speak about tea.

One kg of grapes? That would be ummmmmmmmm at 350 mV per grape ,,,,,,,
UMMMMMMMMM. 25 grapes!

Joel

>> Just a guess,,,, Jan Drew will be here shortly to correct our
>> misconceptions!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Peter
Joel M. Eichen - 14 Dec 2004 19:29 GMT
>I´m not Jan Drew, anyway. And I wouldn´t say you´re lying. Though you
>could know better by now (that concentration and dose are different
>things).
>
>Peter

I am still LY-ying .......... because Jan Drew is going to blame me
anyway.

PS- I wonder what the fluoride content is in de-NILE?

Joel
Keri - 15 Dec 2004 03:47 GMT
This link would be great if I had any idea how to read that table.
What the heck is "EB" and confidence codes?

Keri
Joel M. Eichen - 15 Dec 2004 03:56 GMT
>This link would be great if I had any idea how to read that table.
>What the heck is "EB" and confidence codes?
>
>Keri

On the right are the references for the study and where it was
published.

In all studies they must describe how they got their samples and how
they measured it. A statistical description is "confidence levels."

PAGE 4

Samples were collected in up to 144 locations
across the country, depending on the level of contribution to fluoride
intake. Since
drinking water accounts for approximately 75% of dietary fluoride
intake, sampling of
drinking water was conducted, with Office of Management and Budget
approval,

PAGE 6

The Confidence Code (CC) was derived from the QI and
is an indicator of relative quality of the data and the reliability of
a given mean. The CC
is assigned as follows:
QI CC
75-100 A
74-50 B
49-25 C
< 25 D
Format of the table
The table contains fluoride values for 400 foods across 23 food
groups. The data were
aggregated where possible to match the foods in the USDA National
Nutrient Database
for Standard Reference (SR). Food groups are presented in alphabetical
order with
beverages and foods arranged in alphabetical order within a food
group. Whenever
possible, a NDB Number (No.) (a five digit numerical code used in the
SR) is provided.
This NDB No. provides the link between values for foods in this
database and SR. As
the data come from a variety of sources or are presented with
specificity not used in SR,
there are a number of beverages and foods which are included without a
NDB No. In
these cases, we assigned a temporary NDB No. which begins with “975.”
These
temporary NDB Nos. are not unique to these beverages and foods and may
be used in
other special interest databases produced by NDL.

PAGE 7

Field Name Description
Food Group Description of food group
Item Description of food or beverage
Mean Amount in 100 grams, edible portion
Std Error Standard error of the mean. Null, if could not be calculated
N Number of data points (samples analyzed). The N=1 on
NFNAP data represents a composite of 12 samples
Min Minimum value
Max Maximum value
Lower EB Lower 95% error bound
Upper EB Upper 95% error bound
CC Confidence code indicating data quality based on
evaluations of sample plan, sample handling, analytical
method, analytical quality control, and number of samples
analyzed
Derivation Code Code giving specific information on how the value was
determined:
A = Analytical data
RPA = Recipe; Known formulation; No adjustments
applied, combination of source codes 1, 12 and/or
6
RPI = Recipe; Known formulation; No adjustments
applied, combination of source codes which
includes codes other than 1, 12 or 6
Source Code Code indicating type of data
1 = Analytical or derived from analytical
6 = Aggregated data involving combinations of source
codes 1 & 12
12 = Manufacturer's analytical; partial documentation
Statistical
Comments
1. The displayed summary statistics were computed
from data containing some less-than values. Lessthan,
trace, and not detected values were calculated
2. The displayed degrees of freedom were computed
using Satterthwaite’s approximation (Korz and
Johnson, 1988)
3. The procedure used to estimate the reliability of the
generic mean requires that the data associated with
each study be a simple random sample from all the
products associated with the given data source (for
example, manufacturer, variety, cultivar, and species)
4. For this nutrient, one or more data sources had only
Keri - 15 Dec 2004 04:08 GMT
Okay, I'm going to print it out and maybe I can read it better that
way.  I still think the grapes part is way low.  I just don't see how
it can be true when it has tested so high in juice.

Thanks for helping me with this, Joel.  I am quite surprised you are
willing.  Your not bad, like Jan Drew says.

Keri
Keri - 15 Dec 2004 04:31 GMT
In case anyone is interested, the reason grapes have such a high level
of fluoride is because they are sprayed with cryolite, which is a
fluoride pesticide.

Keri
Joel M. Eichen - 15 Dec 2004 13:16 GMT
>In case anyone is interested, the reason grapes have such a high level
>of fluoride is because they are sprayed with cryolite, which is a
>fluoride pesticide.
>
>Keri

Interesting,,, thanks.
The Webby - 15 Dec 2004 05:11 GMT
> Okay, I'm going to print it out and maybe I can read it better that
> way.  I still think the grapes part is way low.  I just don't see how
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Keri

Hmmmmm.

TW
Joel M. Eichen - 15 Dec 2004 13:15 GMT
>Okay, I'm going to print it out and maybe I can read it better

I bet its the reverse. Its tiny print, meaning I have to enlarge it to
150% or 200%.

The 'puter is better for reading it, although the scrolling is
confusing.

Joel

> that
>way.  I still think the grapes part is way low.  I just don't see how
>it can be true when it has tested so high in juice.

But besides grapes, otehr foods are even lower!

>Thanks for helping me with this, Joel.  I am quite surprised you are
>willing.  Your not bad, like Jan Drew says.

Even Jan Drew often says, "Joel is not as bad as everyone says ...."

Joel

>Keri
 
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