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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / December 2004FLUORIDE QUESTION at DT (update 12/14/2004)
I posted this today, Tuesday 12/14/2004. This thread about got 22 page views so far. Thati s so pathetic! A similar thread with "Rod Kurthy Is The God of Dentistry" (also concocted by me) as title got 125 look-sees, but precious few replies. OK, here is today's text. Its a plain and simple dental question! Joel ** Fluoride! The ADA recommends 0.7mg to 1.3mg FLUORIDE PER DAY for kids between one and three. What do the esteemed dentists at DentalTown tell the moms about this? <big><big>DENTAL QUESTION - we should all be experts about this!</big></big> Joel. M. Eichen DDS Here is the table: http://www.ada.org/public/topics/fluoride/facts/tables.asp Table 2: Dietary Reference Intakes for Fluoride Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine 1997 74 Age Group Reference Weights kg (lbs)* Adequate Intake (mg/day) Tolerable Upper Intake (mg/day) Infants 0-6 months 7 (16) 0.01 0.7 Infants 6-12 months 9 (20) 0.5 0.9 Children 1-3 years 13 (29) 0.7 1.3 Children 4-8 years 22 (48) 1.0 2.0 Children 9-13 years 40 (88) 2.0 10 Boys 14-18 years 64 (142) 3.0 10 Girls 14-18 years 57 (125) 3.0 10 Males 19 years and over 76 (166) 4.0 10 Females 19 years and over 61 (133) 3.0 10 * Value based on data collected during 1988-94 as part of the Third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III) in the United States.74 Return to Top Table 3: Dental Fluorosis Classification by H.T. Dean, 1942 132 LOTS of good answers ........ Here is one! Joel ** On December 14, 2004 at 6:00:51 PM 'glenn_engleman' posted.... [blockquote] ---------------- On 12/14/2004 5:39:14 AM joel344 wrote: Fluoride! The ADA recommends 0.7mg to 1.3mg FLUORIDE PER DAY for kids between one and three. What do the esteemed dentists at DentalTown tell the moms about this? [big][big]DENTAL QUESTION - we should all be experts about this![/big][/big] Joel. M. Eichen DDS It would appear that no one cares. I would suspect that when you are too busy promoting bleaching and veneers there is no time left to continue your own education and that of your patients. g e ** >I posted this today, Tuesday 12/14/2004. This thread about got 22 >page views so far. Thati s so pathetic! A similar thread with "Rod [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > >Table 3: Dental Fluorosis Classification by H.T. Dean, 1942 132 >LOTS of good answers ........ > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >promoting bleaching and veneers there is no time left to continue your >own education and that of your patients. g e Thanks for posting the answer you got. What about asking pediatric dentists? Is there a special section for pediatric concerns? I would think they would be up to snuff on the subject. Keri >>LOTS of good answers ........ >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Keri I think its a dead end. I like Carabellis' answer. Perhaps not all the fluoride is absorbed. Food apparently is not an issue as there are micrograms (mcg) rather than milligrams. Did you see the PDF for the USDA fluoride content? Joel >I think its a dead end. I like Carabellis' answer. Perhaps not all the >fluoride is absorbed. Food apparently is not an issue as there are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Joel Yes, I had actually found that yesterday. The problem is I don't really understand the terminology the table uses. I was looking at "raw grapes" and I just don't know how to translate it. I was trying to decipher how much fluoride was in grapes (raw, not juice) and I could not figure it out from this table. Keri >>I think its a dead end. I like Carabellis' answer. Perhaps not all the >>fluoride is absorbed. Food apparently is not an issue as there are [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Keri GRAPES 49 micrograms per 100 grams of grapes. There are 454 grams per pound so 100 grams equals 1/4 pound of grapes. This contains 49 micrograms or 0.049 milligrams of fluoride. So twenty packages of 1/4 pound each would be ONE milligram of fluoride. So if you eat the whole five pounds of grapes (1/4 x 20) then no water for you. Joel >GRAPES > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Joel It hard to tell when you are serious or when you are kidding. If the above values are correct, then thanks a million for doing the math for me! I wonder if the USDA uses the grapes that have the fluoride ridden pesticide on them...?? Everything I read says grapes can be fertilized up to 7ppm. To me, that would be way more than what you calculated above, right? I'm not saying you are wrong. Just seems like the figure should be higher based on the grape juice tested (that WAS made with unfluoridated water) and the fact they can be fertilized to 7ppm. Keri >>GRAPES >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Keri Actually that was the first thing I noticed. The fluoride figures are way low ~ MICROgrams not milligrams. Joel >Actually that was the first thing I noticed. The fluoride figures are >way low ~ MICROgrams not milligrams. > >Joel When it says min value and max value, what do those figures mean? Values of what? I should have paid better attention in math. Keri >>Actually that was the first thing I noticed. The fluoride figures are >>way low ~ MICROgrams not milligrams. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Keri Keri, There are 144 places where they collect the information so they have minimum and maximum values. Joel >>GRAPES >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Keri They have white grape juice at 204 micrograms. That is 0.204 milligram or one fifth of one milligram. So the grape juice is much higher than the grapes. Joel >They have white grape juice at 204 micrograms. That is 0.204 milligram >or one fifth of one milligram. > >So the grape juice is much higher than the grapes. > >Joel But why, I wonder? I read that even when the grape juice was tested without fluoridated water, it was still extremely high (MUCH higher than fluoridated water). It does not make sense. Keri >>They have white grape juice at 204 micrograms. That is 0.204 milligram >>or one fifth of one milligram. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >without fluoridated water, it was still extremely high (MUCH higher >than fluoridated water). It does not make sense. The fluoridation in different areas of the country is different. This depends on the type of rocks that the water flows through, etc. In some areas its higher, others lower. When you have grapes, much of the weight (100 grams) is in skin and pulp. With grape juice, ithe entire 100 grams is liquid, therefore more fluoride (per 100 grams). Joel >Keri >>>They have white grape juice at 204 micrograms. That is 0.204 milligram >>>or one fifth of one milligram. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The fluoridation in different areas of the country is different. This > depends on the type of rocks that the water flows through, etc. Mmm ... could be that but I think it has more to do with differential use of the pesticide cryolite (sodium aluminum fluoride) or similar on the various grape crops. > In some areas its higher, others lower. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >>Keri >> The fluoridation in different areas of the country is different. This >> depends on the type of rocks that the water flows through, etc. > >Mmm ... could be that but I think it has more to do with differential >use of the pesticide cryolite (sodium aluminum fluoride) or similar on >the various grape crops. I agree. Keri >Mmm ... could be that but I think it has more to do with differential >use of the pesticide cryolite (sodium aluminum fluoride) or similar on >the various grape crops. Could be, but I am talking about natural water ...... some has more fluoride, some less. Naturally. Joel >>Mmm ... could be that but I think it has more to do with differential >>use of the pesticide cryolite (sodium aluminum fluoride) or similar on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Joel What about Un-natural water ? -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>Mmm ... could be that but I think it has more to do with differential >>>use of the pesticide cryolite (sodium aluminum fluoride) or similar on [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >What about Un-natural water ? You mean "bottled water?" Joel' >>>>Mmm ... could be that but I think it has more to do with differential >>>>use of the pesticide cryolite (sodium aluminum fluoride) or similar on [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Joel' No, more like *supernatural* water. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>>>Mmm ... could be that but I think it has more to do with differential >>>>>use of the pesticide cryolite (sodium aluminum fluoride) or similar on [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >No, more like *supernatural* water. OK the one that glows ..... even as it goes down. > >>GRAPES > >> > >>49 micrograms per 100 grams of grapes. > > They have white grape juice at 204 micrograms. That is 0.204 milligram > or one fifth of one milligram. per what? If this means 0.2 mg per liter of juice - it´s much less than 0.5 mg per kg grapes. How many kg grapes does one need to make one liter juice? > So the grape juice is much higher than the grapes. Uhh? Whazzz?  Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------- >>>>GRAPES >>>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > per what? per 100g. That table uses units of mcg/100g. Divide by 100 to get ppm. > > If this means 0.2 mg per liter of juice - it´s much less than 0.5 mg per > kg grapes. It means 2.04 mg/kg. > How many kg grapes does one need to make one liter juice? > >>So the grape juice is much higher than the grapes. > > Uhh? Whazzz? If you go to the store and buy grapes and grape juice, the juice is probably not made from the grapes you buy. >>>>>GRAPES >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >per 100g. That table uses units of mcg/100g. Divide by 100 to get ppm. There is a problem. Fluoride is added to drinking water as PPM or milligams per liter of water. One PPM is one milligram fluoride per liter of water. Or one microgram of fluoride per mL of water. (SAME) The USDA is expressing as weight per weight, as the specific gravity of various foods and liquids varies from what water is. In fact, that's the definition od specific gravity. >> >> If this means 0.2 mg per liter of juice - it´s much less than 0.5 mg per [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >If you go to the store and buy grapes and grape juice, the juice is >probably not made from the grapes you buy. >>>>>>GRAPES >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > One PPM is one milligram fluoride per liter of water. There is ppm by volume and ppm by weight. For dilute water solutions they are about the same. I figured it is close enough for our purpose to assume grape juice's SG is near 1. > Or one microgram of fluoride per mL of water. (SAME) > > The USDA is expressing as weight per weight, as the specific gravity > of various foods and liquids varies from what water is. In fact, > that's the definition od specific gravity. How fast do grapes sink in water? What is the weight of a liter of grape juice? Not so different from 1 kg I bet. Sounds like maybe carabelli is a winemaker. Then he would know. >How fast do grapes sink in water? What is the weight of a liter of >grape juice? Not so different from 1 kg I bet. I gotta go check ....... never mind ........ the grapes are bobbing around too much. >Sounds like maybe carabelli is a winemaker. Then he would know. >> >>GRAPES >> >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >If this means 0.2 mg per liter of juice - it´s much less than 0.5 mg per >kg grapes. 0.204 mg per 100 grams .... grape juice. 49 micrograms in grapes ... per 100 grams of graps. 0.049 milligrams per 100 grams ...... grapes In both cases, its expressed as weight per weight. They do not make any assertions about volume (liters). One could determine that number for grape juice by weighing the bottle and juice and then after drinking it, weighing the empty bottle. The difference would be the weight of one liter of grape juice. The grapes? Easier. Just go to the market and toss 25 grapes onto the scale. Or make it 50 graspes and then divide by two. After they throw you out of the market, there is another possibility. You go home, feed the kid the 25 grapes and put her on the bathroom scale. Joel Joel . >How many kg grapes does one need to make one liter juice? > >> So the grape juice is much higher than the grapes. > >Uhh? Whazzz? >Easier. Just go to the market and toss 25 grapes onto the scale. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Joel I have a food scale, and I am going to go measure 25 grapes. Be right back............................Okay 25 grapes measured at 180 grams or 6.25 oz. So, how much fluoride was she getting based on that? Thanks, Keri Keri, Would like to ask some questions. Does your daughter still drink 32 ozs. of water a day. Is that considered excessive. Why does she insist on grapes to the exclusion of other items. Perhaps some dentists could answer the excessive question. There may be answers to these, but hesitate to guess anything unless what she ingests is a problem. I know of two people that seem addicted to sodapop and that is not a natural condition. They have a need for excessive drink. This is an offbeat post, but all possibilities should be considered. Will go into more detail if this is a problem, if not, just discard this post. Write to me e-mail, if possible, so I can answer by e-mail, and spare some of the crticisms certain to come up. Gail >Keri, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Gail Like many toddlers I have encountered, it is not unusual for them to want the same thing to eat day after day. I know parents who cook seperate dinners for their kid, since they will only eat a few things. I don't do that, but I did let her have her grapes everyday. That was the one area I let her have her choice. Otherwise, she eats what the family eats. As far as the water, most kids drink loads of juice. I don't give her juice she only got water (and milk). We live in a very hot climate with high humidity (close to 100%) and she plays outside alot. That probably has something to do with why she drinks so much. Keri Keri, Do you think the water and milk your daughter drinks exceeds what the other children drink in combined water and juice. If it does not, and you do not consider it a problem, then it is not. And I am thinking in a wrong mode. The case I was thinking of involves a friend of mine (young person in nursing home, who was a vegetarian) and all of a sudden changed eating and drinking habits, from normal to excessive, eating meat, drinking all the pop she could get her hands on, and went from a slender girl to looking like nine months pregnant. It is very, very distressing, and the doctor, except for giving diuretics, has no workable plan. I search for answers, as do you, and even sometimes thinking we know the answer, it is hard to implement, because of factors beyond our control. I will not venture to say what caused your problem, as I am still searching for the answer to my friend. It's a long road, and I hope you are successful. If nothing seems excessive to you, outside of the fluoride, then I must be misjudging. Regards Gail >Like many toddlers I have encountered, it is not unusual for them to >want the same thing to eat day after day. I know parents who cook [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Keri Yes, surprisingly while researching diced grapes I found some interesting stories about the eating habits of toddlers. Me? I have two categories ... food and non-food. If its food, its okay by me. (Basic kind of guy). Where does this come from? At a recent business lunch, the waitress pontificated and hemmed and hawed over which bottle of wine we were going to get. My host selected the one that she "directed him" to select while I was thinking, "Too bad he knows so little and is being suckered in so badly." What she was offering wall all junk. I would have been just as happy with grape juice or Thunderbird of course. Of course, my lips were sealed ........ as a polite guest! Joel Joel > I have a food scale, and I am going to go measure 25 grapes. Be right > back............................Okay 25 grapes measured at 180 grams > or 6.25 oz. So, how much fluoride was she getting based on that? You would have to assume something about the concentration of fluoride in those grapes. >> I have a food scale, and I am going to go measure 25 grapes. Be right >> back............................Okay 25 grapes measured at 180 grams >> or 6.25 oz. So, how much fluoride was she getting based on that? > >You would have to assume something about the concentration of fluoride >in those grapes. I would assume worst case scenario, just to see how bad it COULD be. But your right, I have no idea how to translate 7ppm into 180 grams of grapes. Keri >>>I have a food scale, and I am going to go measure 25 grapes. Be right >>>back............................Okay 25 grapes measured at 180 grams [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Keri Check my posts to you from yesterday. >>> I have a food scale, and I am going to go measure 25 grapes. Be right >>> back............................Okay 25 grapes measured at 180 grams [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Keri Where is the 7 ppm coming from? I would ask them how many ppg. Parts Per Grape. >Where is the 7 ppm coming from? > >I would ask them how many ppg. > >Parts Per Grape. The grapes are allowed to be sprayed with pesticide containing 7ppm of fluoride. Not sure how that calculates into raw grapes. This is where I get seriously confused. (no surprise) Keri >>Where is the 7 ppm coming from? >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Keri So the pesticide has a higher than normal amount of fluoride? I guess that could be so. Could it be that the kids we see with some enamel mottling (the term I prefer to fluorosis) have something to do with grapes? I am just guessing here. As an aside, I was watching a nature program on PBS. I KNOW, SLOW night around here. They had ten minutes left over after the Giant Panda program, so they went to a piece about advice for pets during the holidays. You know, the usual ..... the dog gets into the trash and pulls out some fatty leftovers ,,,,,, the dog eats tinsel ,,,,,,,, finally, they said "raisins and grapes!" They showed a picture of a bowl and sure enough, there were 25 grapes in there. I was waiting to hear ...... about the fluoride and grapes ,,,,,, but no, they didn't say it. They did say chocolate, raisins and grapes can be harmful to dogs ,,,,,, maybe poisonous ...... Joel >So the pesticide has a higher than normal amount of fluoride? I guess >that could be so. Could it be that the kids we see with some enamel >mottling (the term I prefer to fluorosis) have something to do with >grapes? > >I am just guessing here. The pesticide definately has a higher than normal amount of fluoride. I read the one used for grapes and other berries and such was allowed to be up to 7ppm. When tested, grapes seemed to be the worst, followed by potatoes, I think. Keri Have you contacted the CDC yet to find out about all of this and how to take care of it (like certain products might not be hit with pesticides)? All I know is I didn't worry about this kind of thing and my son has wonderful teeth even with the problems with the tetracycline when he was an infant. I did too until the crohn's and I lost most of them due to absorption issues and bleeding. I live in Fl and we always drank a lot water and fruits and veggies were got at the farm and we picked them. (not grapes though, never saw any down here but a lot of others like corn and esp. strawberries that back then we ate them as we were picking which was allowed. UM MOM Susan >>So the pesticide has a higher than normal amount of fluoride? I guess >>that could be so. Could it be that the kids we see with some enamel [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Keri >Have you contacted the CDC yet to find out about all of this and how to take >care of it (like certain products might not be hit with pesticides)? CDC isn't talking. There is rumor the dentists are on the payroll not to speak up. >All I >know is I didn't worry about this kind of thing and my son has wonderful [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >veggies were got at the farm and we picked them. (not grapes though, never >saw any down here but a lot of others like corn and esp. Good,,,, because grapes have lots of fluoride on the skins which is why we eat mainly watermelon. (We toss out the skin). Peeling the skin off the kernels of corn is out of the question. WAIT. They have husks, no need to. Joel > strawberries that >back then we ate them as we were picking which was allowed. UM MOM Susan [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> Keri >Have you contacted the CDC yet to find out about all of this and how to take >care of it (like certain products might not be hit with pesticides)? All I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >saw any down here but a lot of others like corn and esp. strawberries that >back then we ate them as we were picking which was allowed. UM MOM Susan I emailed the CDC, no response. I called them and the girl that answered was a total moron. My sister has Crohn's disease and recently had a resection. Keri Sorry to hear about your sister having crohn's. I wish for her a quick recovery and a remission. UM MOM Susan, going in for her third surgery in January >>Have you contacted the CDC yet to find out about all of this and how to >>take [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Keri >Sorry to hear about your sister having crohn's. I wish for her a quick >recovery and a remission. UM MOM Susan, going in for her third surgery in >January How long remission did you get in between surgeries? Just got remission after my Sept 2003 surgery, never before and I still have episodes at times but most of the time they are self inflicted. (eating food I know will flare me up but the biggest is forgetting to take my meds) UM MOM Susan >>Sorry to hear about your sister having crohn's. I wish for her a quick >>recovery and a remission. UM MOM Susan, going in for her third surgery in >>January > > How long remission did you get in between surgeries? >Just got remission after my Sept 2003 surgery, never before and I still have >episodes at times but most of the time they are self inflicted. (eating >food I know will flare me up but the biggest is forgetting to take my meds) >UM MOM Susan They want to start my sister on Remicade, but she is very afraid of the side effects. Right now she is on no meds, which is not good. They told her she MAY get 5 years remission, or none at all. 5 years was best case scenario. Keri I've never had to use the Remicaide, I take Pentasa. Tell her if she would like to talk to others with this disease, which really does help, she can go to alt.crohns-colitis website or your can give her my email and I go to a smaller site with less trolling and no flame wars or she is welcome to talk to me. I would be more than happy to talk to her. Crohn's is an unforgiving disease and talking to others that are dealing with it really does help. My email addy here is the correct one. Give her my best.. You are right though, her not being on any meds for it just causes more damage and problems. Mine is maintenance right now and it has me with no inflammation active. My last big flare up was when the four hurricanes decided to land on me! I don't do stress at all. UM MOM Susan >>Just got remission after my Sept 2003 surgery, never before and I still >>have [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Keri Susan, Keri. Re: the Remicade post. Did you mean the Alt.support crohns-colitis group. I think the word Alt. is necessary to find the group. At any earlier time, I did try to broach the subject with Keri, but she apparently did not think anything I would say was relevant to anything concerning her subject of interest. (and may still not). Would like to cite the website but it would be incomplete without all the added meds that are suspect. So to unravel the mysteries of crohns, (or at least take a stab at it) Keri can get my version also if she cares to, in the crohns group. Am not meaning to interfere, although that seems to be the general consensus. Just think everyone should have the opportunity of hearing all sides, and in no way discounting any and all treatments. An e-mail address for Keri would be best to avoid the ruckus it will surely cause. Discount if not interested. Gail Also, what is the "restorative surgery" James Stein has scheduled. Don't want to interfere in the brilliant scientific conclusions in the research minds for crohns. Gail Gail if you look I did put alt. for the site. If you mean trying help her with telling her your theory, please don't. She has enough going on in her head with out trying to understand or believe your theory. You know I feel this way about your theory, I just know that your heart is in the right place but you have to get past this theory already. As for the surgery for James, I am not sure what he is having done. I saw he has surgery scheduled but missed what he was going to have done. He did mention that they wanted to remove the colon ( I think that is what he said) but I am not sure if this is what he is having done. Go to the site and ask him. I am sure he will explain it all. UM MOM Susan > Susan, Keri. > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Gail >Susan, Keri. > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >Gail I will send my sister to that newsgroup. I do not have Crohns. She is the only one in the entire family. Keri, Don't know if the name of the newsgroup has been written correctly yet. It is Alt.support.crohns-colitis Susan may have said it correctly, but felt one word was missing. It may have been "support". Gail >>Gail >> >I will send my sister to that newsgroup. I do not have Crohns. She >is the only one in the entire family. Gail will tell you that one or more of your close family or an acquaintance (no matter how far removed) are taking 'stimulants' (Gail has her own definition which is not founded in pharmacological science) That is causing Crohns in your sister. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>Gail >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > in pharmacological science) >That is causing Crohns in your sister. She does not take stimulants. "She does not take stimulants" What is meant is that someone your sister is related or acquainted with is taking a stimulant (perhaps an anti-depressant) that transfers by mind/body connection to your sister (who would not be taking a stimulant) That is the short version and incomplete. Crohns group will explain further. Gail >>>>Gail >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >She does not take stimulants. Tell that to Advocate147/Gail. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE "She does not take stimulants" "Tell that to Advocate147" The confusion in understanding the theory is what makes it impossible to even begin to consider it a valid theory. (if ever). IT IS NOT WHAT THE PERSON WITH CROHNS TAKES, IT IS SOME OTHER UNSUSPECTING PERSON ON A STIMULANT THAT CAUSES THE PROBLEM. What is so hard to understand about that. Gail >I've never had to use the Remicaide, I take Pentasa. Tell her if she would >like to talk to others with this disease, which really does help, she can go [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >inflammation active. My last big flare up was when the four hurricanes >decided to land on me! I don't do stress at all. UM MOM Susan Okay, I'll tell her. Thanks. She took Pentasa forever, but her doc told her Pentasa does not really help with maintenance after surgery. He told her she needs to be on Remicade. Maybe she needs a different gastroenterologist. Keri All I can say is the Pentasa works really well for me. A second opinion never hurts. Remicaide is really expensive and time consuming. UM MOM Susan >>I've never had to use the Remicaide, I take Pentasa. Tell her if she >>would [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Keri >But your right, I have no idea how to translate 7ppm into 180 grams of >grapes. > >Keri Sounds like a case of sour grapes. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>But your right, I have no idea how to translate 7ppm into 180 grams of >>grapes. >> >>Keri > >Sounds like a case of sour grapes. Good one! >>But your right, I have no idea how to translate 7ppm into 180 grams of >>grapes. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > W_B You will live to regret that. carabelli >> I have a food scale, and I am going to go measure 25 grapes. Be right >> back............................Okay 25 grapes measured at 180 grams >> or 6.25 oz. So, how much fluoride was she getting based on that? > >You would have to assume something about the concentration of fluoride >in those grapes. Or check the USDA pdf file that have a guess-timate! >>Easier. Just go to the market and toss 25 grapes onto the scale. >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Thanks, >Keri 180 grams means 1.8 times their standard number for 100grams. 49 micrograms means 0.049 milligrams ...... (Their published number). 0.088 milligrams of fluoride in the 25 grapes. 0.049 x 1.8 So twelve such portions of grapes per day would add up to 1 mg of fluoride for the day. That would be 300 grapes, but no water of course! 0.08 x 12 = 1.0 mg fluoride. Joel >180 grams means 1.8 times their standard number for 100grams. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Joel Thank you for breaking that down. You are kind to do that. Howcome Matt (I think) comes up with .49 mg and your's is .049 mg? Or am I mistaken? Thanks, Keri >>180 grams means 1.8 times their standard number for 100grams. >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Thanks, >Keri I am not sure, perhaps Matt can clarify. Yeah, you are welcome. Breaking down problems into little pieces is fun ... and it helps us to check ourselves ... to see if the calculations are logical. Joel >>>180 grams means 1.8 times their standard number for 100grams. >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > I am not sure, perhaps Matt can clarify. Keri is failing to make a distinction between ppm and mg. Also she is not distinguishing between the fluoride concentration in the pesticide and the fluoride concentration in the grapes. > Yeah, you are welcome. Breaking down problems into little pieces is > fun ... and it helps us to check ourselves ... to see if the > calculations are logical. > > Joel That's right. Keri, you would do well to spend a little time with a high school chemistry book or even a good dictionary (e.g. see the definition of 'concentration'). These concepts are not tough, and you are grasping at straws until you understand them ... >That's right. Keri, you would do well to spend a little time with a >high school chemistry book or even a good dictionary (e.g. see the >definition of 'concentration'). These concepts are not tough, and you >are grasping at straws until you understand them ... Or one can learn painlessly by kibbitzing right here! >>That's right. Keri, you would do well to spend a little time with a >>high school chemistry book or even a good dictionary (e.g. see the >>definition of 'concentration'). These concepts are not tough, and you >>are grasping at straws until you understand them ... > > Or one can learn painlessly by kibbitzing right here! heh heh >Keri is failing to make a distinction between ppm and mg. Also she is >not distinguishing between the fluoride concentration in the pesticide >and the fluoride concentration in the grapes. >That's right. Keri, you would do well to spend a little time with a >high school chemistry book or even a good dictionary (e.g. see the >definition of 'concentration'). These concepts are not tough, and you >are grasping at straws until you understand them ... That's fair. Point taken. Keri >Keri is failing to make a distinction between ppm and mg. Also she is >not distinguishing between the fluoride concentration in the pesticide >and the fluoride concentration in the grapes. Forgot to add, you are correct. It's the translating ppm into mg that I don't understand. I do understand 1 ppm per of fluoride in liquid equals one milligram of fluoride per liter. It just seemed like you and Joel were saying two different things, so I wondered who was correct. Anyway, thanks. Keri >>Keri is failing to make a distinction between ppm and mg. Also she is >>not distinguishing between the fluoride concentration in the pesticide [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Keri Keri, you are correct, but I think its the nature of the internet. Sometimes I read something and I think, "Who said that?" It gets confusing ... I think we are all on the same page here. Watermelon appears to soak in less fluoride, but then again if any kid starts eating 25 watermelons a day, then we got even bigger troubles. To say nothing about all the sugar inside! Joel >Yeah, you are welcome. Breaking down problems into little pieces is >fun ... and it helps us to check ourselves ... to see if the >calculations are logical. > >Joel It's fun???? Not to me. Probably explains why I have so much trouble with it. I used to be quite good at it (10 years ago). I guess when you don't use something often, it slips away. Keri >>Yeah, you are welcome. Breaking down problems into little pieces is >>fun ... and it helps us to check ourselves ... to see if the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Keri YUP, the part that is fun is writing it down line by line and seeing if each line follows from what is above. Later on, in conversation where we do not have the benefit of the internet, it makes it easier to spout off the latest information about say, fluoride content in grapes. It sure causes people to think that you know something about it. As example, "Grapes contain 49 micrograms (mcg) of fluoride per 100 gram weight of grapes." Now if I work that into a fluoride discussion, then I got it! Joel >> >>GRAPES >> >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Uhh? Whazzz? I also read that they do not always peel the skins when they make grape juice. But when they DID, it was fluoride free. The one with skins is where the fluoride is coming from. (because of the pesticide) Keri >I also read that they do not always peel the skins when they make >grape juice. But when they DID, it was fluoride free. The one with >skins is where the fluoride is coming from. (because of the pesticide) > >Keri This is getting complicated. Can you get your daughter to switch to watermelons, but not twenty five per sitting though. Joel > >I also read that they do not always peel the skins when they make > >grape juice. But when they DID, it was fluoride free. The one with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Joel I think I created a monster. TW >>I also read that they do not always peel the skins when they make >>grape juice. But when they DID, it was fluoride free. The one with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Joel Today I gave her a banana and NO grapes. She was ticked off, and threw a fit, but she got over it. Keri >>Joel >> >Today I gave her a banana and NO grapes. She was ticked off, and >threw a fit, but she got over it. > >Keri Wait a minute ,,, did you see the fluoride content for bananas? ((kidding)) The fluoride is in the skin and as we all know about the skin ...... Joel >>>Joel >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Joel Somehow I knew you were gonna say that.. heehee Keri > >GRAPES > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Keri Keri, do you truly have two children whom this is all about? TW >> >GRAPES >> > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >Keri, do you truly have two children whom this is all about? >TW Yes, I have 2 daughters. The oldest is 33 months and the youngest is 7 months old. Why are you asking this? keri > >> >GRAPES > >> > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > keri I just didn't want to find myself wondering why I didn't ask you that question. Thank you. TW >>>Keri, do you truly have two children whom this is all about? >>>TW [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > TW She stated that more than once in the other thread. :-) >>>I think its a dead end. I like Carabellis' answer. Perhaps not all the >>>fluoride is absorbed. Food apparently is not an issue as there are [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > 49 micrograms per 100 grams of grapes. In other words, those grapes averaged 0.49 ppm F^-. >>>> I think its a dead end. I like Carabellis' answer. Perhaps not all the >>>> fluoride is absorbed. Food apparently is not an issue as there are [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > In other words, those grapes averaged 0.49 ppm F^-. Whoops, I guess the superscript didn't work. Anyway it's 0.49 ppm fluoride. >>> GRAPES >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Anyway it's 0.49 ppm fluoride. For 1/4 pound? makes no sense to me. Why is the grape juice testing so high even when fluoride free water is used? They are spraying the dang grapes with 7 ppm pesticide, so how can that be? I just don't get it. Keri By the way, several sites said that when the skins of grapes were removed, the grape juice had non detectable levels of fluoride. Which shows it is in the skins. >>>>GRAPES >>>> >>>>49 micrograms per 100 grams of grapes. 49 mcg/100g = 490 mcg/kg = 0.49 mg/kg = 0.49 ppm >>Anyway it's 0.49 ppm fluoride. So 2 kg of the tested grapes would have 1 mg F. Joel did some rounding and calculated 5 lb rather than 2 kg. Same idea. > For 1/4 pound? makes no sense to me. For any amount. ppm is a concentration, not an amount. Parts per million. If your tap water is 1 ppm, you don't ask for what amount. > Why is the grape juice testing > so high even when fluoride free water is used? Probably the grape juice happened to come from different grapes grown under different conditions. The grape juice had 2.04 ppm. So you get 1 mg F in 500 ml. > They are spraying the > dang grapes with 7 ppm pesticide, so how can that be? I just don't > get it. The pesticide is higher than 7 ppm. The idea is that the growers are permitted to spray the grapes as much as they want as long as the grapes stay under 7 ppm at harvest. > Keri > > By the way, several sites said that when the skins of grapes were > removed, the grape juice had non detectable levels of fluoride. Which > shows it is in the skins. You are going to have to give up your technical questions unless you can come to understand what I have written above. >>>>>GRAPES >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >So 2 kg of the tested grapes would have 1 mg F. Joel did some rounding >and calculated 5 lb rather than 2 kg. Same idea. TRUE, this is because I love grapes and prefer to eat all five pounds at a sitting. Joel >> For 1/4 pound? makes no sense to me. > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >You are going to have to give up your technical questions unless you can >come to understand what I have written above. >>So 2 kg of the tested grapes would have 1 mg F. Joel did some rounding >>and calculated 5 lb rather than 2 kg. Same idea. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Joel Joel, did you get my email today? >>>So 2 kg of the tested grapes would have 1 mg F. Joel did some rounding >>>and calculated 5 lb rather than 2 kg. Same idea. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Joel, did you get my email today? NOPE. >For any amount. ppm is a concentration, not an amount. Parts per >million. If your tap water is 1 ppm, you don't ask for what amount. But I know that 1ppm of water equals 1 mg of fluoride for a liter, so that figure is easy for me. I will admit I get confused when we start talking about grams and micrograms. All I know is that she ate 25 red grapes per day and I measured 25 grapes out to be 180 grams. Thanks for being patient with my ignorance. Keri >>For any amount. ppm is a concentration, not an amount. Parts per >>million. If your tap water is 1 ppm, you don't ask for what amount. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Keri Actually, handling conversions stumps medical students too. Paret of it is that the conversion rates are not readily known so people get confused with the terms. EXAMPLE: 454 grams equals one pound. Joel > EXAMPLE: 454 grams equals one pound. But a German student should know that one pound is 500 grams. Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- > > > EXAMPLE: 454 grams equals one pound. > > But a German student should know that one pound is 500 grams. http://www.peteducation.com/category_summary.cfm?cls=0&Cat=1305 But the WWW knows it is 453.6 (is the WWW an entity?) Pet educators seem to have their own ideas ;-) > > > EXAMPLE: 454 grams equals one pound. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Pet educators seem to have their own ideas ;-) http://www.sengpielaudio.com/UmrechGew.htm (1 Pfund (engl: pound) = 500 g) If you switch to "english version", however, the english pound is given (about 454 g) Just to make things worse :-) Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > EXAMPLE: 454 grams equals one pound. > > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Just to make things worse :-) We all just love confusion..... :-) >>>EXAMPLE: 454 grams equals one pound. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Pet educators seem to have their own ideas ;-) Merriam-Webster: Main Entry: 1pound Pronunciation: 'paund Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural pounds also pound Etymology: Middle English, from Old English pund, from Latin pondo pound, from ablative of pondus weight -- more at PENDANT 1 : any of various units of mass and weight; specifically : a unit now in general use among English-speaking peoples equal to 16 avoirdupois ounces or 7000 grains or 0.45359237 kilogram -- see WEIGHT table 2 a : the basic monetary unit of the United Kingdom -- called also pound sterling b : any of numerous basic monetary units of other countries -- see MONEY table c : 2LIRA > >>>EXAMPLE: 454 grams equals one pound. > >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > sterling b : any of numerous basic monetary units of other countries -- > see MONEY table c : 2LIRA See how it is around here? So much evidence of truth in all of our ideas and everybody still gets along! TW :-) >See how it is around here? So much evidence of truth in all of our >ideas and everybody still gets along! > >TW :-) Actually, I have learned quite a bit from this bantering ,, some from all you guys, others by being forced into looking stuff up myself. By contrast, the several posts I made at DentalTown with fluoride question in the title, were almost ignored. So who wins and who loses? We win. We can intelligently discuss the issue. Joel > >See how it is around here? So much evidence of truth in all of our > >ideas and everybody still gets along! [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Joel It takes practice on the parts of all involved. But I think we do a pretty good job of intelligently discussing issues. I, like you, look up a lot of stuff *because* of what passes through this newsgroup. TW >>>See how it is around here? So much evidence of truth in all of our >>>ideas and everybody still gets along! [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > TW One thing that helps a lot is that the group doesn't seem to have many top-posters! ______________________________________________________________________ A: Because it ruins the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? >>See how it is around here? So much evidence of truth in all of our >>ideas and everybody still gets along! [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Joel If it makes you feel better, nearly every site I visit on this topic states that most dentists are unaware of the fluoride amounts recommended and such. You are not alone by a long shot. Again, a pediatric dentist would be MOST helpful. We cannot see one until April but I called one today in the area. He would not talk to me. Oh well. Keri Also, the ADA has not reponded to me, and I honestly don't expect them to. >>>See how it is around here? So much evidence of truth in all of our >>>ideas and everybody still gets along! [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Keri You might call back and put your question to the receptionist or dental assistant. Sometimes they are somewhat knowledgeable. Joel >Also, the ADA has not reponded to me, and I honestly don't expect them >to. >You might call back and put your question to the receptionist or >dental assistant. Sometimes they are somewhat knowledgeable. > >Joel I may call a different office. The staff at the one I called was less than pleasant. I think most places are going to want me to make an appointment in order to talk with them. Keri >>You might call back and put your question to the receptionist or >>dental assistant. Sometimes they are somewhat knowledgeable. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Keri Practice Building 101 Interesting. How many dentists are losing patients because of rude staff? If I am near the front desk, I always wrastle the receptionist to the ground until she reases the phone so I can TALK. Patients love that. I can get them really psyched for their first appointment! Joel >>>You might call back and put your question to the receptionist or >>>dental assistant. Sometimes they are somewhat knowledgeable. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Joel The staff is a huge issue. This goes for anyone in the medical field. No matter how great the doctor/dentist is, if the staff is rude and unhelpful, I will go elsewhere. Keri Now do not forget the Troy pound that contains twelve ounces ...... each ounce consisting of 20 dwt (DWT means pennyweight). This is how we used to order gold ....... I bought a bunch at $35 per ounce ...... and still have the ingots! Its worth more today. GOLD 12/15/2004 13:29 440.50 441.00 +5.10 +1.17% 438.70 441.90 OK any arbitrageurs around? Here is the World Spot: GOLD 12/15/2004 15:20 439.70 440.50 -0.80 -0.18% Joel Joel >> ounces or 7000 grains or 0.45359237 kilogram -- see WEIGHT table >> 2 a : the basic monetary unit of the United Kingdom -- called also pound >> sterling b : any of numerous basic monetary units of other countries -- >> see MONEY table c : 2LIRA >> EXAMPLE: 454 grams equals one pound. > >But a German student should know that one pound is 500 grams. How so? > >> EXAMPLE: 454 grams equals one pound. > > > >But a German student should know that one pound is 500 grams. > > How so? German pounds ("Pfund"). Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- >>>EXAMPLE: 454 grams equals one pound. >> >>But a German student should know that one pound is 500 grams. > > How so? The same way a metric ton is 1000 kg. >> GRAPES >> >> 49 micrograms per 100 grams of grapes. > >In other words, those grapes averaged 0.49 ppm F^-. Not really. You could say that those grapes averaged 0.049 milligrams fluoride per 100 grams of grapes. Which is what they said! PPM is "weight per volume" units. The USDA figures are "weight per weight" units. Joel >>>GRAPES >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Joel Okay, but the standard error is huge, so we are not going to get one significant figure anyway. >>>>GRAPES >>>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Okay, but the standard error is huge, so we are not going to get one >significant figure anyway. I was shocked at that as well. HUGE! >>> GRAPES >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >You could say that those grapes averaged 0.049 milligrams fluoride per >100 grams of grapes. So is it .49mg for 100 grams or .049mg for 100 grams? Or neither? I am soooooooo confused. This is the million dollar question. Keri Or maybe Matt is saying .49 ppm which is different that .49 mg. I am so confused my head is spinning. My guess is this: 180 grams of grapes = .98 mg of fluoride. Am I correct or incorrect? Keri |
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