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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / December 2004fluorosis (how much fluoride?)
Hello again, Can someone tell me how many milligrams of fluoride per day a child would need to ingest, to cause fluorosis in a child's permanent teeth? I did some calculations and my 33 month old daughter has been ingesting at least 2 mg each day from drinking water and fluoride toothpaste that she swallowed every day. I actually monitored her water intake each day for a week, and she drinks at least 32 ounces per day. She has been getting at least 2 mg of fluoride per day for over one year! This figure does not even include food, or food that includes our fluoridated drinking water. Anyway, how much per day will cause fluorosis? Thanks for your time, Keri P.S. We no longer use fluoride toothpaste since she swallows the entire amount. She cannot grasp the concept of spitting yet. She did, however, swallow it twice a day for a whole year if you remember my prior post to you guys. I would not brush her teeth with toothpaste until she can spit. jwn dds > Hello again, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > did, however, swallow it twice a day for a whole year if you remember > my prior post to you guys. You can buy special baby toothpaste which does not contain fluoride and is safe to swallow. It is in tiny tubes on the blister-pack wall of the baby supplies at the store. Next to the baby oral-gel.  Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... >I would not brush her teeth with toothpaste until she can spit. > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> did, however, swallow it twice a day for a whole year if you remember >> my prior post to you guys. > Hello again, > > Can someone tell me how many milligrams of fluoride per day a child > would need to ingest, to cause fluorosis in a child's permanent teeth? To avoid dental fluorosis, the National Academy of Sciences advises the following daily fluoride intake from all sources (food, air, water, medicines, supplements and dental products):· infants up to 6 months old - less than 0.01 mg · babies from 7 - 12 months - less than 0.5 mg · children from 1 to 3 years old - less than 0.7 mg · children from 4 to 8 years old - less than 1 mg How Much Fluoride Did You Eat Today? See: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/fluoridation/112620 Sally Stride Fluoridation Feature Writer, Suite 101 http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/fluoridation >How Much Fluoride Did You Eat Today? Very little but I ate huge amounts of FLOURide. >To avoid dental fluorosis, the National Academy of Sciences advises the >following daily fluoride intake from all sources (food, air, water, >medicines, supplements and dental products):· infants up to 6 months >old - less than 0.01 mg · babies from 7 - 12 months - less than 0.5 >mg · children from 1 to 3 years old - less than 0.7 mg · children >from 4 to 8 years old - less than 1 mg Well there you go, she was getting more than twice too much (and probably more). God if I could only go back in time. Now all the kids are gonna laugh at her for having disgusting looking teeth. She was getting at least 2 mg FOR A YEAR. Tears are currently streaming down my face, thinking about how I will have ruined her self esteem. An ugly smile can kill a child's self esteem. Thanks for the info. Keri >>To avoid dental fluorosis, the National Academy of Sciences advises the >>following daily fluoride intake from all sources (food, air, water, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Keri Please read this letter, from the NAS. Please note that the 0.1 mg figure is an ADEQUATE fluoride intake, as defined by the NAS, for infants, not a maximum allowable dose. The level at which SOME children will suffer generally MILD fluorosis has been stated as 0.5 mg/kg of body mass. This means that a child about 20 lbs. has a small risk of mild fluorosis an an ingestion level of about 5 mg/day. Allowing for some wiggle room, it appears to me that you are panicking for no reason: http://www.fluoride-journal.com/99-32-3/323-187.htm Please note that Sally here is an anti-fluoride activist. She certainly has that right. She does not have the right to misrepresent the position of the NAS. The web has some wonderful information, but this illustrates how a selective reading of information can be very misleading. Best, Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > Please read this letter, from the NAS. Please note that the 0.1 mg >figure is an ADEQUATE fluoride intake, as defined by the NAS, for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >http://www.fluoride-journal.com/99-32-3/323-187.htm Thanks for the article. It actually says it ".05" not ".5" mg/kg of body mass. My daughter currently weighs about 26 pounds, but we started her on fluoride a year ago and she was 20 pounds. SInce it is .05 would that mean that a 20 pound child would get fluorosis at .50 mg per day? Wow, then she was getting at least 4 times too much. Please tell me if my math is wrong. I won't lie, my math skills leave alot to be desired! Keri >> Please read this letter, from the NAS. Please note that the 0.1 mg >>figure is an ADEQUATE fluoride intake, as defined by the NAS, for [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Keri No, my arithmetic is in error. However, note that the opinion letter from the NAS assessed minimal risk of fluorosis at this level. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > No, my arithmetic is in error. However, note that the opinion letter >from the NAS assessed minimal risk of fluorosis at this level. > >Steve Okay, well since it is clear she was getting like 4 times too much, if/when she does get these horrid teeth, is there anything that can be done to improve the way they look? I thought I read something once that said bleaching would not work on fluorosis. Thanks, Keri By the way, here's how I come up with how much fluoride she got. She brushed and swallowed (full amount) of .15 % fluoride toothpaste twice per day (a larged pea sized amount) She drinks 32-40 ounces per day of 1 ppm fluoridated water None of this even includes water we cooked with, or foods that contain fluoride. two pea sized amounts of toothpaste would be like .75 mg or more, right? >> No, my arithmetic is in error. However, note that the opinion letter > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > two pea sized amounts of toothpaste would be like .75 mg or more, > right? Now you've got me guessing, but I guess no. I'd guess a pea-sized amount is no more than maybe 50 mg, so on the order of .15% of 100 mg would be no more than 150 ug, or .15 mg. Someone have an analytical balance? Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >> No, my arithmetic is in error. However, note that the opinion letter >>from the NAS assessed minimal risk of fluorosis at this level. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >if/when she does get these horrid teeth, is there anything that can be >done to improve the way they look? If you are close to Los Angeles several dentists will offer to do porcelain veneers ..... > I thought I read something once >that said bleaching would not work on fluorosis. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >two pea sized amounts of toothpaste would be like .75 mg or more, >right? Why the hell do they put it in the drinking water if it is dangerous in forming teeth? Even without the fluoride toothpaste, my daughter is getting too much just from the drinking water at 1 ppm. It really pisses me off that this crap is added to the water. I had no idea just drinking the water could affect my kids future teeth. Just needed to get that off my chest. Keri >Why the hell do they put it in the drinking water if it is dangerous >in forming teeth? That's a huge discussion mainly in political circles ..... The idea is that many people will not buy fluoride in toothpaste or in vitamins ...... Joel > Even without the fluoride toothpaste, my daughter >is getting too much just from the drinking water at 1 ppm. Your municipal supply should be less than that. Ours is o.3 ppm ..... > It really >pisses me off that this crap is added to the water. I had no idea >just drinking the water could affect my kids future teeth. > >Just needed to get that off my chest. >Keri >Your municipal supply should be less than that. Ours is o.3 ppm ..... Nope, I have the report. It ranges from .85 ppm to 1 ppm. I think it's ridiculous, given people use water to mix formula and such. JMO. Keri > The idea is that many people will not buy fluoride in toothpaste or in > vitamins ...... Now that is funny. It is hard to find non-fluoridated toothpastes. >> The idea is that many people will not buy fluoride in toothpaste or in >> vitamins ...... > >Now that is funny. It is hard to find non-fluoridated toothpastes. Not where I live. Not only is there a good selection of non-fluoridated toothpastes at any of the natural foods stores, there is also at least one brand at every larger supermarket. -- Adenosine Semi-informed Dental Consumer ? >Why the hell do they put it in the drinking water if it is dangerous >in forming teeth? Because at 1 part per million, it doesn't harm developing teeth. It makes them stronger and more resistant to decay. > Even without the fluoride toothpaste, my daughter >is getting too much just from the drinking water at 1 ppm. No. >It really >pisses me off that this crap is added to the water. Don't buy into the anti-fluoridationists BS. >I had no idea >just drinking the water could affect my kids future teeth. It will make them stronger, have a \/alium >Just needed to get that off my chest. Ten-foot cyber-pole. >Keri -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>Why the hell do they put it in the drinking water if it is dangerous >>in forming teeth? > >Because at 1 part per million, it doesn't harm developing teeth. >It makes them stronger and more resistant to decay. I would say the ingested fluoride plus the municipal water fluoride should EQUAL one ppm. Joel >> Even without the fluoride toothpaste, my daughter >>is getting too much just from the drinking water at 1 ppm. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >>Keri >>Because at 1 part per million, it doesn't harm developing teeth. >>It makes them stronger and more resistant to decay. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Joel I say it takes a helluvalot more than 1ppm to cause fluorosis. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>Because at 1 part per million, it doesn't harm developing teeth. >>>It makes them stronger and more resistant to decay. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I say it takes a helluvalot more than 1ppm to cause fluorosis. I would say 5 is the range and up to 10 or more! This happens in various places in Texas with huge natural fluoride in the drinking water ..... Stolen material follows ....... Recent studies indicate that the total intake of fluoride is as high as 3 mg/day rather than the earlier figure of 1.5 mg/day, primarily because of increases in the estimated levels of fluoride in food. (1970) Balance data presented by Spencer also suggest a higher retention by bone, nearly 2 mg/day rather than the 0.2 mg/day indicated earlier. ... These findings are important . . . a retention of 2 mg/day would mean that an average individual would experience skeletal fluorosis after 40 yr, based on an accumulation of 10,000 ppm fluoride in bone ash. [phase 3 Crippling Skeletal Fluorosis] There was an observation in the Kingston-Newburgh study that was considered spurious and has never been followed up. There was a 13.5% incidence of cortical defects in bone in the fluoridated community but only 7.5% in the nonfluoridated community. ... Caffey noted that the age, sex, and anatomical distribution of these bone defects are 'strikingly' similar to that of osteogenic sarcoma. The "moderate" dental fluorosis shown by Hodge and Smith (1965, p. 443) in a community with "about 2 ppm" would be objectionable to most, if not all, parents, although there seems to be little consumer research on the matter. As noted above, the possibility of mutagenesis due to HF is potentially important in cancer of the stomach. Ingested fluoride ion can become HF in the stomach because the pH of HF is 3.18 and the pH of the stomach without food is generally about 1. Although stomach cancer rates show no consistent indication of a relationship to fluoridation in the United States, the much higher stomach cancer rates in Japan are related to intake patterns that are compatible with a hypothesis that fluoride is the crucial factor involved.... Initial symptoms of toxicity are a result of the local action of fluoride on the mucosa of the gastrointestinal tract. Vomiting, abdominal pain, nausea, and diarrhea are followed by paresthesia, hyperactive reflexes and tonic and clonic convulsions. No system of the body can be considered exempt, and death is usually due to respiratory paralysis or cardiac failure. Many of the signs and symptoms of acute fluoride toxicity are a result of the calcium-binding effects of fluoride (Goodman and Gilman, 1975; WHO, 1970). Without statements about the power of the tests, the implication of finding no-effect is construed to be that no effect exists ... further study is indicated. (Discussion of safety studies) Three reports confirm the belief that renal patients have a lower margin of safety than the average person. ... One case of symptomatic skeletal fluorosis (radiculomyelopathy) has been reported from an area in Texas with natural fluoride at 2.3 -3.5 ppm in the water. (1965). There have been two cases of suspected skeletal fluorosis (based on X-ray evidence in the United States with fluoride at 2-3 ppm in the drinking water (1972). The combination of renal impairment and very high water intake was thought to account for these findings. > I would say the ingested fluoride plus the municipal water fluoride > should EQUAL one ppm. I appreciate much what you say in some of your other related posts. Yet, 1 ppm is not a dose but a concentration. It simply says one part per million parts of something (water, for example). With 1 ppm fluoride in water (1 mg per million mg = 1 mg per liter) you ingest one mg fluoride if you drink just one liter. If you chose to drink two liters, you already ingest two mg. To that add what you use to prepare your food (wherein it becomes more concentrated on cooking). Plus what´s in juices, in tea, mineral water, etc. Colorado Springs, where the research on badly mottled teeth once began, had just 2 to 2.5 ppm in the water (depending on the season, because the minerals become more concentrated during summer months when rivers carry less water). Trendley Dean, the father of fluoridation, set 1 ppm as an arbitrary threshold level, where -he said- about 10 per cent of the children will develop mildest forms of mottled teeth. You will admit, that among children 9 years of age you will get less fluorotic individuals than with children 12 years of age (-> tooth development). So, if your ten percent children with mottled teeth are in a group of children aged 9, you will probably have a much higher percentage at age 12. With this in mind look at Dean´s original data! You will be surprised to see how he managed to have a low fluorosis incidence in some places. Peter Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- Hi Peter, I don't know how many people have taken time to visit your website. But I wanted to mention for a long time that it is a most interesting site and informative in ways that I would not have encountered otherwise. Sabra > I don't know how many people have taken time to visit your website. But > I wanted to mention for a long time that it is a most interesting site > and informative in ways that I would not have encountered otherwise. Thank you, Sabra, for the kind words. I don´t know, either, how many people have taken time to visit my website and to read some of the articles. Comments like yours show me that all my investments of time and money to get the historic documents together are not in vain. Too bad only, that after a normal 8-hours work day there´s not much time and energy left to work on any website updates, which, therefore, can be done only in rather long intervals. Best, Peter Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- >I would say the ingested fluoride plus the municipal water fluoride >should EQUAL one ppm. > >Joel How do you figure? Maybe it SHOULD but it doesn't. She drinks minimum 32 ounces of 1 ppm water (I measured for a week and I have our water plant's report). She swallowed 2 large pea sized amounts of toothpaste every single day. Then you have to think about the food with natural fluoride plus the water we use to cook with. 32 ounces of water- 1 mg 2 times swallowed paste- .75 mg Thats 1.75 mg just right there. Some days she drinks closer to 40 ounces (we live in a hot climate). >>I would say the ingested fluoride plus the municipal water fluoride >>should EQUAL one ppm. >> >>Joel >> >How do you figure? That's the problem! I drink Tropicana which is NOT from concentrate while some dude down the street reconstitutes from frozen. So keeping track is impossible. Oh yes, I mean orange juice. Everything else too. Joel > Maybe it SHOULD but it doesn't. She drinks >minimum 32 ounces of 1 ppm water (I measured for a week and I have our [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Thats 1.75 mg just right there. Some days she drinks closer to 40 >ounces (we live in a hot climate). >>I would say the ingested fluoride plus the municipal water fluoride >>should EQUAL one ppm. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Thats 1.75 mg just right there. Some days she drinks closer to 40 >ounces (we live in a hot climate). The limit is not one milligram. It may be twenty milligrams(per day) spread over water, orange juice, beer (me not her), and of course food. Food is 75 - 90% water! Joel >The limit is not one milligram. It may be twenty milligrams(per day) >spread over water, orange juice, beer (me not her), and of course >food. Food is 75 - 90% water! > >Joel According to the ADA the upper intake limit is 1.3 mg for a 1-3 year old. Adequate intake amount is .7 mg. So she was way above even the upper intake limit. The ADA claims you will start to see fluorosis when you go above that figure. Keri > >The limit is not one milligram. It may be twenty milligrams(per day) > >spread over water, orange juice, beer (me not her), and of course [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Keri Keri, have you visited the website of Peter Meiers? >Keri, have you visited the website of Peter Meiers? Nope, why? Tell me how to get there and I'll check it out tonight after my kiddos are asleep. > >Keri, have you visited the website of Peter Meiers? > > Nope, why? Tell me how to get there and I'll check it out tonight > after my kiddos are asleep. Okay. The Webby wrote: > > I don't know how many people have taken time to visit your website. But > > I wanted to mention for a long time that it is a most interesting site [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Best, > Peter So open your browser and put in the following URL: http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm You asked why? After you have a chance to visit, let us know what you think? TW >http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm > >You asked why? After you have a chance to visit, let us know what you >think? > >TW I think it backs up my reason for being so concerned about my daughter's developing teeth. Keri > >http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Keri Keri, you may see it that way, but that is not why I suggested you read the materials there. I know that it's impossible for you to have read much of anything published there by this time today. On the other hand, you can go to the American Academy of Pediatrics and read their position. Balance, my dear. Everything in life is about balance. TW >On the other hand, you can go to the American Academy of Pediatrics and >read their position. > >Balance, my dear. Everything in life is about balance. > >TW I read the ADA and AAP stuff first. Their stuff is what lead me to the conclusion she will have fluorosis. The link you gave me just reinforced it. No, I have not read all the stuff about cancer etc, I will read that later when I have time. I was only looking at fluorosis. Keri >>On the other hand, you can go to the American Academy of Pediatrics and >>read their position. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >will read that later when I have time. I was only looking at >fluorosis. I posted at DT, but so far, plenty of reading but no replying ..... Now I am wondering ..... Joel >Keri > >>On the other hand, you can go to the American Academy of Pediatrics and > >>read their position. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > >Keri We can and should wonder about all sorts of points the pendulum touches as it swings far and wide ... but we must remember that one of the points it always touches on that journey is the point determined as dead-center. TW Observation. Moderation. TW In article <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-AC9A14.09452011122004@orngca-news04.soca l.rr.com>, > > >>On the other hand, you can go to the American Academy of Pediatrics and > > >>read their position. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > TW >>>On the other hand, you can go to the American Academy of Pediatrics and >>>read their position. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >>Keri I have no idea what DT is. >>>>On the other hand, you can go to the American Academy of Pediatrics and >>>>read their position. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >I have no idea what DT is. DentalTown. It's an online community devoted to dentistry. It's for professionals and businesses only, but it's not particularily difficult to get a login without being a dentist or a provider of dental goods. -- Adenosine Semi-informed Dental Consumer ? >>>>Keri >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >difficult to get a login without being a dentist or a provider of >dental goods. What's that secret word ,,,,,,,, OCCIDENTAL? > >>>>Keri > >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What's that secret word ,,,,,,,, OCCIDENTAL? I don't think so... but you're close! >> >DentalTown. It's an online community devoted to dentistry. It's for >> >professionals and businesses only, but it's not particularily [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >I don't think so... but you're close! I lied because otherwise Jan Drew will tell Howard I am spilling the beans! Joel > >> >DentalTown. It's an online community devoted to dentistry. It's for > >> >professionals and businesses only, but it's not particularily [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Joel I knew you lied. >>I posted at DT, but so far, plenty of reading but no replying ..... >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I have no idea what DT is. You cannot get there from here ,,,,,, its for dental people .... but I will report back what they say. DentalTown (there are armed guards at the border). Joel > You cannot get there from here ,,,,,, its for dental people .... but I > will report back what they say. > > DentalTown (there are armed guards at the border). > > Joel Is it the one that's three groups up, two across, and three over on the diagonal??? I see armed guards over there, I think ..... yes, that's what I see! You're right. You can't get there from here. >>>I posted at DT, but so far, plenty of reading but no replying ..... >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Joel As interested as I might be to see what they have to say, I would never go to any site and pretend to be something I'm not (a dentist). If you find out anything that I might be interested in, good or bad, please email me at karasmom2004@yahoo.com Thanks, Keri >>You cannot get there from here ,,,,,, its for dental people .... but I >>will report back what they say. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Thanks, >Keri Will do. Its two days and no one there has taken the bait ... although around 100 have clicked and viewed the file. (I do not know how many have READ thye file, but at least they clicked). Joel > Will do. Its two days and no one there has taken the bait ... although > around 100 have clicked and viewed the file. > > (I do not know how many have READ thye file, but at least they > clicked). Joel, try asking the AAPHD listserv. They´ll probably give you some lesson ;-)) Peter Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- > >>I posted at DT, but so far, plenty of reading but no replying ..... > >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Joel the guards can be bribed with anything.... a cigarette, and elastic band, what ever... what a farce SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >>The limit is not one milligram. It may be twenty milligrams(per day) >>spread over water, orange juice, beer (me not her), and of course [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Keri Really? I stand corrected. THANKS. Joel >It will make them stronger, have a \/alium Yes, I need one. Can dentists prescribe them? LOL. I agree that at 1 ppm alone, it may not be a big deal. But they probably would not expect a toddler to drink a liter or more of water per day (like mine does). Then we have the whole swallowed toothpaste issue. I am currently using non fluoride toothpaste, which I should have done from the beginning. I am trying not to buy into the anti-fluoride crap, but everything I read is mostly negative. There is a fine line between how much is healthy and how much will do harm. I am finding out that my daughters 2 mg or more per day was WAY too much. Keri >>It will make them stronger, have a \/alium >>> >Yes, I need one. Can dentists prescribe them? Yes, when I had oral surgery when I was a kid, I was given a valium before I came in, even tho I was going under for the procedure. Didn't stop me from getting rather emotional before they knocked me out however. -- Adenosine Semi-informed Dental Consumer ? >>It will make them stronger, have a \/alium >>> >Yes, I need one. Can dentists prescribe them? LOL. YUP, we give laughing gas too but only at parties. > I agree that at >1 ppm alone, it may not be a big deal. But they probably would not [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >between how much is healthy and how much will do harm. I am finding >out that my daughters 2 mg or more per day was WAY too much. No its not. If you drink 8 glasses of water you are over 2 mg fluoride. Joel >Keri O >No its not. > >If you drink 8 glasses of water you are over 2 mg fluoride. > >Joel Look, I have the utmost respect for you, even though I don't know you. And I respect what you do and all that it took to get there. BUT, why would the ADA but a limit on fluoride ingestion if it caused no problems? They recommend .7 mg per day, upper intake allowable limit 1.3 mg for 1-3 year olds. so how on earth can you claim 2 mg would not be too much? Yes, 8 glasses of water would give me 2 mg, but I am an adult. Children should not be drinking that junk if it is harmful. I will admit, my kid drinks twice as much water as most kids. I only let her drink water and milk, currently (I know, mean mommy)! ADA says you get fluorosis when you go over their suggested limits. They are the "gods" of dentistry, right? Keri >O >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >would the ADA but a limit on fluoride ingestion if it caused no >problems? Jeez, I am wondering the same thing myself. That's impossibly low! One liter of water (around a quart) contains one mg of fluoride. Joel > They recommend .7 mg per day, upper intake allowable limit Wow! Three glasses of water ...... and no food either. >1.3 mg for 1-3 year olds. so how on earth can you claim 2 mg would not >be too much? Yes, 8 glasses of water would give me 2 mg, but I am an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >says you get fluorosis when you go over their suggested limits. They >are the "gods" of dentistry, right? No Rod Kurthy is the God of dentistry ....... Joel >Keri OY VEY!!!! Keri, Please skip this part ...... YIKES. You got too much to worry about already. Joel Does fluoride cause cancer? It was a letter from a famous physician of Hannover, Dr. Hans Nieper (a friend of Dr. Dean Burk), to the editor of a medical journal that drew my attention to the problem late in 1981. In response to an article on possible immuno-suppressive effects of tetracyclines, Dr. Nieper suggested that fluorides used in water fluoridation might have contributed to the observed occurrence of Non-Hodgkin lymphoma in American and Canadian patients consulting him. They had been treated - three months to three years before the diagnosis- with tetracyclines. As no such association existed in his German patients with lymphoma or myeloma, Dr. Nieper thought that an additional factor, typical for the U.S.A. and Canada, might be synergistic with tetracycline leading to cancer. Besides the possiblity of viruses and nitrites, he mentioned fluoridation and referred to evidence of carcinogenic fluoride effects presented at a court trial in Pittsburgh, Pa. I called >>O >>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >>Keri > OY VEY!!!! > ... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (a friend of Dr. Dean Burk), to the editor of a medical journal that > drew my attention to the problem late in 1981. ... That was the start. Here´s something more: http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk/meiers_critique_of_york_review.html Yikes ?!? Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- Yo Peter! I agree with you and thanks for alerting us to the possibility that fluoride is doing something other than making teeth stronger. ME? I just do not know ........ So I am counting on YOU! Joel >> OY VEY!!!! >> ... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Yikes ?!? >Jeez, I am wondering the same thing myself. That's impossibly low! > >One liter of water (around a quart) contains one mg of fluoride. > >Joel Look at the second table on this page http://www.ada.org/public/topics/fluoride/facts/tables.asp Don't forget I am talking about the intake for a child, not an adult. Most kids don't drink a liter of water per day. Mine does and more. Keri >>Jeez, I am wondering the same thing myself. That's impossibly low! >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Keri Thanks Keri, You are a good researcher! This is stuff I never came across before and believe me ,,, I am o nthe internet some! THANKS. PS- I am wondering about blood sugar. A pediatrician may want to check into why the kid drinks so much water. Joel >Thanks Keri, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Joel We live in a hot climate and she plays outside alot. Also, I don't let her drink juice so water is her only option. Her blood sugar was checked (for other reasons) and was fine. Are you a dentist? >>Thanks Keri, >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >let her drink juice so water is her only option. Her blood sugar was >checked (for other reasons) and was fine. Are you a dentist? YUP. > and believe me ,,, I am o nthe internet some! But how much of that time is spent making inane posts to s.m.d? It really took you a long time to notice the difference between giving 2mg to a 20-lb. individual and giving the same amount to an adult. You are a dental college graduate for god's sake. >> and believe me ,,, I am o nthe internet some! > >But how much of that time is spent making inane posts to s.m.d? 95% of it, why do you ask? Joel >It really took you a long time to notice the difference between giving >2mg to a 20-lb. individual and giving the same amount to an adult. You >are a dental college graduate for god's sake. >> and believe me ,,, I am o nthe internet some! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >2mg to a 20-lb. individual and giving the same amount to an adult. You >are a dental college graduate for god's sake. To tell you the truth I never heard of the limit for fluoride to be 1mg or 2mg or 10mg. That is why I posted at DentalTown. The other dentists do not seem to have any knowledge of it either. Joel >To tell you the truth I never heard of the limit for fluoride to be >1mg or 2mg or 10mg. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Joel I do believe you, but I find that fasinating. I wonder if it's something they mainly teach to the hygienists since they are the one spending the most time with your child and discussing cleaning your child's teeth.....??? I would be interested in any info any dentist has. We won't be seeing a pediatric dentist until April of next year (when our insurance kicks in). What I find surprising is that link that Dr Bornfeld (Steve?) posted where they said the limit was .05 mg/kg of body weight. That would mean my 20 lb child would top out at .5 mg right? Jeez, I'd have to NEVER give her any water at that rate. The article actually said you will see fluorosis above that figure. Do any of you see children in your practice? Do you see much fluorosis? I am particularly interested in areas with water fluoridated at 1 ppm. Keri > >To tell you the truth I never heard of the limit for fluoride to be > >1mg or 2mg or 10mg. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Keri Keri, look around at all the other children where you live. Do they all have the problem you fear for your children? If so? If not? TW On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 03:31:57 GMT, The Webby >Keri, look around at all the other children where you live. Do they all >have the problem you fear for your children? If so? If not? > >TW I never paid attention but I will start looking now! However, I do think my daughter drinks more water than the average 2 year old. Like I said before, other parents probably also did not let their toddler swallow fluoride toothpaste twice a day. I really don't understand why they fluoridate the water, when it is so easy to go over the ADA's recommended intake level. I guess they feel ugly teeth is better than cavities. It actually pisses me off. I think it's ridiculous to fluoridate the water at 1 ppm when fluoride is also coming from so many other sources. And the recommended intake for my kid according to the ADA is .7 mg! That is insane. My child was getting about 4 times too much (that I KNOW of). Sorry I am repeating the same thing over and over, I am just angry. I will get over it soon, I promise. Keri Sorry I am repeating the same thing > over and over, I am just angry. I will get over it soon, I promise. > > Keri I certainly hope so because you might have something more pressing to worry about when you least expect it with two children! TW > However, I do > think my daughter drinks more water than the average 2 year old. Like > I said before, other parents probably also did not let their toddler > swallow fluoride toothpaste twice a day. As I understand it, excessive fluoride intake causes thirst, so there is supposed to be a snowball effect. > I really don't understand > why they fluoridate the water, when it is so easy to go over the ADA's > recommended intake level. I guess they feel ugly teeth is better than > cavities. It actually pisses me off. Lady! Don't you think that if there was a serious flurosis problem in your area you'd know about it already??? You'd have seen it in the kids around you? Come on now... you are being paranoid about this thing and I seriously think that it is time YOU got some help. Your kids are going to be FINE, in all probability. YOU, however, are not, unless you can learn to control yourself. You NEED HELP with this. Maybe not permanently, but for a while. DON'T do anythig stupid, like try to limit your little girl's water intake. Limit your own thoughts instead. Did I mention I think you yourself need help? Talk to YOUR OWN physician, and ask for a referral. Like I said before, you are harming your children with this obsession. You are an adult; it is too late to change your psychological make-up. Not so for your children. If you walked into my office with this attitude, I would force you to do what I say for the sake of your children, more than your own health. DO IT NOW SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >Lady! Don't you think that if there was a serious flurosis problem in >your area you'd know about it already??? You'd have seen it in the kids >around you? But still ,,, enamel can be splotchier than we would like. The parents are often unaware, but I do not like what I see ... that part is true. Joel > But still ,,, enamel can be splotchier than we would like. The parents > are often unaware, but I do not like what I see ... that part is true. > > Joel What is true is that this lady is having a cow over something that is a small and correctible defect in teeth. Self flaggellation went out when Jesus Christ was Lord and Master in Europe (that is: The Middle Ages). This is 2004/2005, and this lady needs to get some balance into her head or the SAAAAAME thing will happen again and again..... I am worried about those kids with an attitude like that. SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >> But still ,,, enamel can be splotchier than we would like. The parents >> are often unaware, but I do not like what I see ... that part is true. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >small and correctible defect in teeth. Self flaggellation went out when >Jesus Christ was Lord and Master in Europe (that is: The Middle Ages). She did not mention if she is religious ..... It is a shame to see the splotchy enamel though .... ...and to tell you the truth I never heard about the 1mg or 2mg per day ........ (ADA site) ...... The discussion itself should be resolved somehow ...... Joel >This is 2004/2005, and this lady needs to get some balance into her head >or the SAAAAAME thing will happen again and again..... I am worried >about those kids with an attitude like that. >SP >What is true is that this lady is having a cow over something that is a >small and correctible defect in teeth. Self flaggellation went out when [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >about those kids with an attitude like that. >SP Look, I will agree that I am worked up over something that already occured, and I have no control over. However, there is NOTHING wrong about educating myself on this subject. I have a 7 month old baby girl, also, and I want to make sure her fluoride intake is adequate but not too much. Therefore, this subject interests me alot. Should I just continue to be ignorant on the subject and let it happen to my 2nd daughter's teeth, too? My concern is that the ADA claims fluorosis will result when you go over a ridiculously small amount of fluoride per day. In my community, the fluoride in the water is at 1ppm. Both my kids will likely drink lots of water because I don't like to give them juice (just sugar water, IMO). Anyway, 2 year olds cannot spit toothpaste, so why do the directions on the tube (Oral B stages for kids, for example) say to use a pea sized amount for 2-6 years old? 2 year olds should not have fluoridated toothpaste. If you brush twice a day, they are ingesting about .75 mg. If they drink a liter of water per day (like my toddler), they are getting 1 mg. Just right there you are over the ADA's recommended intake AND the upper intake tolerable level (by ALOT). This is my point, it should not be in the water, when it's so easy to go over. Maybe some dentists LIKE it this way so they can make more money on correcting fluorosis. However, I have read numerous times that it is extrememly difficult to correct damage from fluorosis. I do not care if I seem neurotic. This subject interests me and I want to do whats best for my child's teeth. The research I have been doing while my children nap or are with my husband playing in no way affects the wonderful relationship we have. Give me a break. Oh yeah, as far as there being a fluorosis crisis in my area, no I have not heard of one. However fluorosis is not always severe, and most parents I have talked to recently are not using fluoridated toothpaste for their kid and their children don't drink that much water. So most likely they will not have too much of a problem. Keri >>What is true is that this lady is having a cow over something that is a >>small and correctible defect in teeth. Self flaggellation went out when [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >occured, and I have no control over. However, there is NOTHING wrong >about educating myself on this subject. We agree. The cow agrees too. Joel > I have a 7 month old baby >girl, also, and I want to make sure her fluoride intake is adequate [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >Keri >Oh yeah, as far as there being a fluorosis crisis in my area, no I >have not heard of one. Go look at the front teeth of some of the seven and eight year olds ..... Joel >>Oh yeah, as far as there being a fluorosis crisis in my area, no I >>have not heard of one. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Joel I can do that, but how will I know how much water they drank as a toddler, or if their parents let them use fluoridated toothpaste? Much less swallow it. There is no way to know, and even "I" am not crazy enough to go around asking parents. LOL! Keri >>>Oh yeah, as far as there being a fluorosis crisis in my area, no I >>>have not heard of one. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I can do that, but how will I know how much water they drank as a >toddler, or if their parents let them use fluoridated toothpaste? That's the problem with all fluoride studies ... for example I drink Tropicana orange juice that is not reconstituted from concentrate, while someone else may buy frozen and reconstitute it with fluoirde-laden water ...... Joel >Much >less swallow it. There is no way to know, and even "I" am not crazy >enough to go around asking parents. LOL! Too bad. Stope Pipe would have liked to hear you say that! >Keri > I can do that, but how will I know how much water they drank as a > toddler, or if their parents let them use fluoridated toothpaste? Much > less swallow it. There is no way to know, and even "I" am not crazy > enough to go around asking parents. LOL! At least you would get an impression of how widespread the problem is or may be in your area. Regardless of whether it´s caused by the water or toothpaste, or whatever. Just regard it as an outcome of the sum of all fluoride exposure, which is higher in areas with fluoridated water. One child may get most fluoride by drinking 3 liters of water (what? eh? well, somewhat exaggerated) and not swallow toothpaste, while another drinks less water but prefers toothpaste or <whatever>. Peter Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- > Oh yeah, as far as there being a fluorosis crisis in my area, no I > have not heard of one. However fluorosis is not always severe, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Keri Then follow the good suggestion: go ask the neighbors how they handle it and look closely at the front teeth of the 6 and 7 year olds. If you see white spots, you may have a problem. If not, concentrate on other things. SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >What is true is that this lady is having a cow over something that is a >small and correctible defect in teeth. Self flaggellation went out when [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >about those kids with an attitude like that. >SP Small? The problem is small? Look at these teeth, especially the ones at the bottom. http://www.fluoridealert.org/dental-fluorosis.htm > >What is true is that this lady is having a cow over something that is a > >small and correctible defect in teeth. Self flaggellation went out when [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://www.fluoridealert.org/dental-fluorosis.htm Looking at the photo credits, I saw Elke Babiuk who spent quite a bit of time in this newsgroup. That takes me back to '95 ... '96? (I could look it up.) I was going to collect the "ideas" for Keri from this thread, but the more I think about it, I think Keri should do that. What do you say, Keri? TW >I was going to collect the "ideas" for Keri from this thread, but the >more I think about it, I think Keri should do that. What do you say, >Keri? > >TW Sure, no problem. > >I was going to collect the "ideas" for Keri from this thread, but the > >more I think about it, I think Keri should do that. What do you say, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Sure, no problem. Great! TW >Looking at the photo credits, I saw Elke Babiuk who spent quite a bit of >time in this newsgroup. That takes me back to '95 ... '96? (I could >look it up.) I was thinking that too ...... Gee, its a small vocal group that's everywhere ......... > >Looking at the photo credits, I saw Elke Babiuk who spent quite a bit of > >time in this newsgroup. That takes me back to '95 ... '96? (I could [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Gee, its a small vocal group that's everywhere ......... Interesting. > >Looking at the photo credits, I saw Elke Babiuk who spent quite a bit of > >time in this newsgroup. That takes me back to '95 ... '96? (I could [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Gee, its a small vocal group that's everywhere ......... A "small vocal group"? Since you learned this by heart, the "small vocal group" grew quite a bit. Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- - Fluor. Auf den Spuren eines Wundermittels - : --http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/deutsch/index.htm-- ---------------------------------------------------- >> >Looking at the photo credits, I saw Elke Babiuk who spent quite a bit of >> >time in this newsgroup. That takes me back to '95 ... '96? (I could [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >A "small vocal group"? Since you learned this by heart, the "small vocal >group" grew quite a bit. YUP, Keri joined! > >> >Looking at the photo credits, I saw Elke Babiuk who spent quite a bit of > >> >time in this newsgroup. That takes me back to '95 ... '96? (I could [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > YUP, Keri joined! We´ll see. Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- - Fluor. Auf den Spuren eines Wundermittels - : --http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/deutsch/index.htm-- ---------------------------------------------------- > Looking at the photo credits, I saw Elke Babiuk who spent quite a bit of > time in this newsgroup. That takes me back to '95 ... '96? (I could > look it up.) That may be right. It was my beginning too. And I remember well how you entered the group with almost thousands of posts a day on one subject ... ;-)) Regards, Peter Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- > > Looking at the photo credits, I saw Elke Babiuk who spent quite a bit of > > time in this newsgroup. That takes me back to '95 ... '96? (I could [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Regards, > Peter The tough old days ... ;-) And best regards to you, Peter. Sabra >> Looking at the photo credits, I saw Elke Babiuk who spent quite a bit of >> time in this newsgroup. That takes me back to '95 ... '96? (I could [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Regards, >Peter I am just wondering what with millions and billions of web pages, how come I ALWAYS run into the same twenty or thirty people? Joel > >> Looking at the photo credits, I saw Elke Babiuk who spent quite a bit of > >> time in this newsgroup. That takes me back to '95 ... '96? (I could [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I am just wondering what with millions and billions of web pages, how > come I ALWAYS run into the same twenty or thirty people? Take a look at the fluoridistas. Same thing. That´s why I am so interested in the history of that BS. The anti´s only don´t have that many followers yet, as they are not so well organized. But times change. Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- > >What is true is that this lady is having a cow over something that is a > >small and correctible defect in teeth. Self flaggellation went out when [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://www.fluoridealert.org/dental-fluorosis.htm For some reason, my reply post hasn't arrived in a timely manner. If this is a duplicate, I apologize. I wrote: Looking at the photo credits, I saw Elke Babiuk who spent quite a bit of time in this newsgroup. That takes me back to '95 ... '96? (I could look it up.) I was going to collect the "ideas" for Keri from this thread, but the more I think about it, I think Keri should do that. What do you say, Keri? TW > Small? The problem is small? Look at these teeth, especially the > ones at the bottom. > > http://www.fluoridealert.org/dental-fluorosis.htm I am sure we're talking here about areas where the water is unusually high in Fluoride content, and most/all the kids in the area are afflicted. I don't think you'd find this in the city, really I don't. If you were at risk for that type of difformity, the neighborhood kids would be showing it, it wouldn't be an isolated case. Keep yer chin up! ;-) SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >I am sure we're talking here about areas where the water is unusually >high in Fluoride content, and most/all the kids in the area are >afflicted. I don't think you'd find this in the city, really I don't. Places like Texas, I believe ....... >>I am sure we're talking here about areas where the water is unusually >>high in Fluoride content, and most/all the kids in the area are >>afflicted. I don't think you'd find this in the city, really I don't. > >Places like Texas, I believe ....... I live in Texas. Keri >>>I am sure we're talking here about areas where the water is unusually >>>high in Fluoride content, and most/all the kids in the area are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Keri Oh no! Ooo-o-oo-o-o-o-o-o I said the wrong thing! Joel >>>Places like Texas, I believe ....... >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Joel Yep, but maybe you can see my concern a little better now. Any responses on Dental Town? What about that "god" you refer to? Ron or Rod? Keri >>>>Places like Texas, I believe ....... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Keri NOTHING! And hundreds have viewed the page! NUTTIN' Joel > >>I am sure we're talking here about areas where the water is unusually > >>high in Fluoride content, and most/all the kids in the area are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > I live in Texas. Where? |
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