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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / December 2004

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Criteria for well done fillings.

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Clinton C Zimmerman - 02 Dec 2004 04:20 GMT
All this talk about dental incompentence makes me think.
Suppose a dental patient walks into an office and has
dental work done. A set of x-rays is also taken which
the patient has copies made of.

Suppose each of the fillings are visually inspected and
inspected on the x-ray.

What are the signs of high quality amalgam or composite
both by direct visual inspection and on the x-ray and is
it realistic for a patient to try to assess the quality
of work done by a dentist.

Also, where can that information be found on the internet
or in a public or dental library?
carabelli - 02 Dec 2004 04:51 GMT
"Clinton C Zimmerman" <clintonz@prodigy.net> wrote.................

is
> it realistic for a patient to try to assess the quality
> of work done by a dentist.............

Sure, it would probably be a poor assessment though.

I took organic and studied spectroscopy in a few other courses way back
when.  Even with the help of some websites I'm certain that I would do a
poor job of interpreting that stuff now.  I have just enough knowledge of it
now to butcher reading one.

carabelli
Joel M. Eichen - 02 Dec 2004 10:55 GMT
>"Clinton C Zimmerman" <clintonz@prodigy.net> wrote.................
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>carabelli

Was that organic farming?

Joel
Joel M. Eichen - 02 Dec 2004 10:54 GMT
>All this talk about dental incompentence makes me think.
>Suppose a dental patient walks into an office and has
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Also, where can that information be found on the internet
>or in a public or dental library?

Actually, nowhere. But dentists will agree what is good, and what is
bad.

Its like masons looking at a brick wall, or carpenters looking at a
set of stairs.

Joel
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS - 02 Dec 2004 15:18 GMT
> All this talk about dental incompentence makes me think.
> Suppose a dental patient walks into an office and has
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Also, where can that information be found on the internet
> or in a public or dental library?

   
1) The filling should look good (good meaning it is esthetically
acceptable to the patient, given the location of the mouth.
2) The tooth should not hurt, except where it is expected to show
transient postop sensitivity.
3) The bite feels good.
4) Interproximal contacts are tight.  Floss should have some resistance
to placement between the teeth.  If floss slides between the teeth
passively, food will too and this can be both an annoyance and cause gum
problems.
5) The margins are closed and smooth.  It is unlikely a patient can do this.
5) The filling anatomy should be smooth and appropriate, with correct
emergence profiles.  It is unlikely a patient can do this.
6) Amalgam should be properly triturated and well-condensed.  Neither
another dentist nor the patient will be able to evaluate this, except in
perhaps the most egregious situations.  Ideally, amalgams are polished.
 This greatly improves quality, marginal seal, decreases corrosion, and
generally will allow amalgams to hold up much longer.  Composites must
be placed using correct bonding technique, without dessicating the
dentine, and using multiple applications of bonding agent, and
thoroughly evaporating the solvent.  Generally it must be built up in
layers, except that some resins claim to have an adequate cure depth of
up to 5 mm.  Neither the patient nor the dentist will be able to tell if
good technique was used, except that postoperative sensitivity is far
more likely if technique was spotty.

    The bottom line is that you go to an expert because you think they know
more than you do.  If I felt I was smart enough to fix my car, I might
have been able to avoid a bunch of crummy mechanics.  Getting a good
recommendation for a pediatrician, an accountant, or a guitar repairman
from someone who has had opportunity to use the professional over a
period of time and has the judgement to be  able to evaluate his/her
competence is the way to go, understanding that we're all human and
capable of mistakes (except, of course, for my wife).
    If I had to evaluate every service and product I use, I'd have to move
to that mountain shack and become a hermit.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Clinton C Zimmerman - 02 Dec 2004 22:09 GMT
of work done by a dentist.

> > Also, where can that information be found on the internet
> > or in a public or dental library?
>
>    

> 5) The margins are closed and smooth.  It is unlikely a patient can do this.

Darn

> 5) The filling anatomy should be smooth and appropriate, with correct
> emergence profiles.  It is unlikely a patient can do this.

What if the filling looks jagged on the exposed surface or has a lot
of waves or "folds" on that surface. I can't remember what my old
filling looked like but IIRC one of my moms may have looked like that.
Are you saying that if the filling is not smooth it is not well done?
Also, what if there are a lot of edges or "jagged" parts all along the
top unexposed surface of the amalgam that can be seen on the x-ray.
Actually I have my old x-rays with the old amalgams so sometime I may
scan them in and post them.

> 6) Amalgam should be properly triturated and well-condensed.  Neither
> another dentist nor the patient will be able to evaluate this, except in
> perhaps the most egregious situations.  Ideally, amalgams are polished.

Very interesting, so even a filling that looks good could be poorly
condensed.

>   This greatly improves quality, marginal seal, decreases corrosion, and
> generally will allow amalgams to hold up much longer.  Composites must
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> good technique was used, except that postoperative sensitivity is far
> more likely if technique was spotty.

That's good know, I didn't realize that even dentists have trouble
evaluating
composite quality. Thanks for the information.

>     The bottom line is that you go to an expert because you think they know
> more than you do.  If I felt I was smart enough to fix my car, I might
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>     If I had to evaluate every service and product I use, I'd have to move
> to that mountain shack and become a hermit.

I agree, but I would say in hindsight that dentistry or any other
medical
service is one of the areas where the customer should be most involved
since a bad car repair job or a faulty tax return can't directly
affect your health although they can create a lot of other problems.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS - 02 Dec 2004 22:42 GMT
> of work done by a dentist.
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Actually I have my old x-rays with the old amalgams so sometime I may
> scan them in and post them.

    Some dentists try to carve in as natural as possible a normal occlusal
anatomy.  When we were in school (and later, when I was a faculty
member) these were sometimes pejoritively referred to as "chicken
scratches".  These don't represent a lack of care so much as perhaps a
surplus of finickiness where it really has no real benefit.  Of course,
it should not trap food, nor should it feel ragged to the tongue or cheek.

>>6) Amalgam should be properly triturated and well-condensed.  Neither
>>another dentist nor the patient will be able to evaluate this, except in
>>perhaps the most egregious situations.  Ideally, amalgams are polished.
>
> Very interesting, so even a filling that looks good could be poorly
> condensed.

    I really wouldn't know. ;-)

>>  This greatly improves quality, marginal seal, decreases corrosion, and
>>generally will allow amalgams to hold up much longer.  Composites must
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> evaluating
> composite quality. Thanks for the information.

    Well, you can tell if care was taken with carving and trimming.  There
are also imponderables, such as whether a dentist is really getting the
output on his/her curing light they think they are.  There are ways to
test this, but I'll admit not doing this.  I compensate by curing for
longer than the prescribed time period, just in case.

>>    The bottom line is that you go to an expert because you think they know
>>more than you do.  If I felt I was smart enough to fix my car, I might
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> since a bad car repair job or a faulty tax return can't directly
> affect your health although they can create a lot of other problems.

    I don't disagree in principle, though we might disagree on just exactly
what constitutes an appropriate level of patient involvement in
treatment.  Ideally, the doctor and patient should be on the same
wavelength on what the goals in treatment are, and should agree in
principle with the broad outlines of treatment, including expectations
about appointments, payments, anxiety, pain, cosmetics, health risks,
and proper maintenance and recall scheduling--in other words, there
should be a basis for mutual trust that both will work to get the
patient from point A to point B, and then stay in a stable state of
health so far as is possible.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

 
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