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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / November 2004next tips for dentures
Ok I checked resently new ackryl material called diamond d high impact It has the some propriety like injections material but Its stronger than lucitone and the labs dont need any extra equipment anyway Its possible to make better dentures without extra prices . regards >Ok > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >anyway Its possible to make better dentures without extra prices . YUP Keystone Industries product. Its supposedly good. Joel >regards personnaly I hope that the labs having less expencess would make cheaper job for dentists It could be interesting becouse the manufacturers make a lot of injections systems (extra exoencess etc).I think that dentsply will be disappinted and ivoclar.Ivoclar quality products are presently history they dont make nothing new from years >>Ok >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >>regards Ask the lab to give you a discount for the $0.25 they might save per denture. That is all acrylic is worth when you buy in bulk. As for Ivoclar ... If is ain't broke, why fix it? The system works. Technique sensitive yes, but it works real good. One day we can discuss the various injection systems.  SignatureRoy DotSeaEh is .ca | personnaly I hope that the labs having less expencess would make cheaper job | for dentists [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] | > | >>regards Roy In diamond d labs doesnt need injections press. For some technician it is very importanta.They can invest less money and get the some quality and result(with this material eaven better)) They cant afraid of problems with equipment.They save place in labs and time. Method is simpler. For dentists its the advantige that this material is better that others and for patients It could be cheaper regards > Ask the lab to give you a discount for the $0.25 they might save per > denture. That is all acrylic is worth when you buy in bulk. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > | > > | >>regards Where is the data supporting how and why this material is superior? All I have seen so far is the typical American in your face marketing testimonials. I did notice they dropped the "Cadmium Free" in their recent Canadian marketing campaign. How is the process simpler? One still has to invest and divest the case. The only difference is packing versus injection. IMO injection is a much simpler than trial packing, requiring less labour (read as saving $$). If one factors in the occlusal adjustments due to processing, (read as saving $$) the cost of the material is negligible. Do you really feel that the cost of acrylic consisting of maybe $0.75 on a $750.00 denture is a marketing or price advantage? IME if one drops their fees even a few hundred dollars trying to give someone a break, it is still never enough and rarely seems appreciated. I have made it a point to ask everyone I meet that uses Ivocap processed dentures the same question. Namely, have you noticed any difference in post insertion adjustments since switching? The answer has always been that there is a noticeable reduction of time spent on post insertion adjustments. What is your clinical time worth? You are a marketers dream. Ever met P.T. Barnum? SignatureRoy DotSeaEh is .ca | Roy | In diamond d labs doesnt need injections press. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] | > | > | > | >>regards >Where is the data supporting how and why this material is superior? All I >have seen so far is the typical American in your face marketing >testimonials. If this is Diamond-D there are studies. I looked this over around a year and a half ago when it was being developed. I will send some references .... Joel >I did notice they dropped the "Cadmium Free" in their recent Canadian >marketing campaign. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >You are a marketers dream. Ever met P.T. Barnum? ROY wrote, >Where is the data supporting how and why this material is superior? All I >have seen so far is the typical American in your face marketing >testimonials. REPLY You may want to send e-mail to Carl, be sure to tell carl Joel sent you! Joel *** From: Carl (crogers@keystoneind.com) Subject: Re: Cadmium and Phthalate Free Denture Acrylic View: Complete Thread (30 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry Date: 2003-10-17 12:48:59 PST Thanks, Joel. First the dentist should chose one of the four shades of the Diamond D Heat Ultra Impact Heat Cure Denture Acylic. They are the three common Original, Light and Light Reddish Pink shades as well as a fourth shade called Chroma-Essence we developed in conjuction with Tom Zaleske (Tom Z) at Matrix Dental Lab. Tom has been Characterizing his dentures for years and is constantly improving this art. The Chroma-Essence shade is an interesting story unto itself. The name comes from a question I asked my Father-In-Law, Bud Edmondson, the 2002 featured artist in "American Artist" magazine(water colors). I needed to know if there was a word for a color that accepted shade modification (denture staining)? After looking through all of the resources he had available to him he called back the next day and said NO. However he did suggest the phrase Chroma-Essence and hence the name of the shade. As in my former posting here, this is also something that came from years of "Lurking" on internet dental Forums such as Sci.Med.Dentistry, IDF Forum and Dentaltown. We have been seeing such questions as "How can a Dentist and a Removable Laboratory start to make Dentures a more Satisfying and Profitable part of their Endevours" and "How to Create the Denture Practice of Your Dreams". We did not believe that we had to re-invent the wheel. Dentists and laboratories have been successfully packing dentures in the split flask, lost wax technique for years and the result of a good fit is the dentist and laboratory communication. When processing a high end denture you can bet there will be a lot of Dentist/Lab communication. The result of all this is that the chemists and I hunkered down in the research laboratory and tested the working characteristics and impact strength of ever heat cure denture acrylic we could lay our hands on. Once we decided on the impact modifier we wished to use we imbedded that into the polymer bead, not keeping it on the outside of the bead where it would not be as strong. We tested and retested this untill we felt we had the best working characteristics and the strongets impact on the market and we did not have to use any phthalates to accomplish this. We then pigmented and fibered this acrylic and acquired and maintained the colorstability of the four shades with the use of spectrophotometer techniques that are the best in the industry. All that without the use of cadmium pigments and not taking away from the integrity of the strength of the final product. You can not imagine how hard this was but my wife certainly knows. Since we were not grandfathered in for our FDA 510K we had to submit the Daimond D for approval. We recieved that and sent it out to removable labs for their approval. We finally were able to introduce our Diamond D Ultra Impact Heat Cure Acrylic at the 2003 New York Dental Congress on September 19 & 20. At the moment Lincoln Dental is the only dealer to be carrying the Diamond D and they will be sponsering Tom Zaleske's "Raising the Bar in Denture Fabrication" that will also feature the Chroma-Essence shade at Chicago during the Mid-Winter Meeting Lab Day Presentation. I am sure that the majority of the Dealers will be on board by that time. Sorry I got so verbose. After the dentist choses the shade they should put Diamond D for the acrylic the denture should be processed out of on the script and mark one of the four shades and send the script to their laboratory. The labs would have to contact Lincoln Dental, at this early stage, to purchase the Diamond D. Carl Rogers crogers@keystoneind.com Joel M. Eichen D.D.S. <joeleichen@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<rubuovgchpfho8baooq93oajssbtckq9tl@4ax.com>... > Its an excellent product from what I've heard. How can dentists > specify this product for their dentures? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > > >Carl Rogers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Google Home - - Business Solutions - About Google ©2004 Google >Where is the data supporting how and why this material is superior? All I >have seen so far is the typical American in your face marketing [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >You are a marketers dream. Ever met P.T. Barnum? I have to admit that I thought about this a few times today. The more I thought about it, the more I realized that Ivoclar has come out with new denture products in the last few years. Two new series of teeth plus two new posterior lines. A new articulator and if I were to really put my mind to it I could find some more. SignatureRoy DotSeaEh is .ca | Where is the data supporting how and why this material is superior? All I | have seen so far is the typical American in your face marketing [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] || > | > || > | >>regards Mr. Roy Brown. I would love to send you a one pound sample of the Diamond D Heat Cure powder with monomer for you or someone you choose to evaluate. I tried to email you personally at your roybrown@sympatico.DotSeaEh but it bounced back saying the destination server for this address could not be found in DNS. I need a ship to address. P.S. The Diamond D does not contain cadmium. Regards, Carl > I have to admit that I thought about this a few times today. The more I > thought about it, the more I realized that Ivoclar has come out with new [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > || > | > > || > | >>regards >Mr. Roy Brown. I would love to send you a one pound sample of the >Diamond D Heat Cure powder with monomer for you or someone you choose [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Regards, >Carl REPLY Are there on-line sources for the studies that demonstrate what a great product this is? Joel >> I have to admit that I thought about this a few times today. The more I >> thought about it, the more I realized that Ivoclar has come out with new [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] >> || > | > >> || > | >>regards Carl, Please look at my signature line used in this newsgroup and you should be able to figure out my email, the anti-spam workaround is rather simplistic. You can contact me by removing the * DotSeaEh * after sympatico and replacing it with * ca *. You may not realize it, but you have already harvested and used my email address. On Fri 09/07/2004 at 12:01 you sent myself and about seventy-six other local individuals an email with the subject: Tom Zaleske Testimonial & FREE 10 OZ. Glass Acrylic Mixing Jar for Trying Our Denture Resin-No gimmicks. That email contained links to a google groups search of this newsgroup where TomZ "MatrixDentalLab" posted some anecdotal evidence about Diamond D. And a link to TomZ's post on Dental town. Too bad the pictures won't download, it would have been nice to see Tom's work in its final environment. You stated in that email: > We say- > 1. You get the most fracture resistant heat cure denture acrylic on the > market today. > 2. The most user friendly impact resistant denture acrylic made. > 3. The best tooth adhesion you've seen in a heat cure denture acrylic. > 4. Excellent reproduction of tissue anatomy. > The proof is in the acrylic and that is why Keystone Industries feels > comfortable in giving you a $30.00 value absolutely Free. Once again I would like to ask for the scientific literature supporting the claims of superiority for your product. Hint - one Izod impact test result does not make for scientific literature. Once I am satisfied with the literature, I will take you up on generous offer. Chances are that you also have my ship to address. I seem to recall receiving some direct mail literature related to your product. Literature that makes it to my recycling box rarely gets archived. I never said your product did contain cadmium. I do believe that we have already discussed this previously in this newsgroup a little over a year ago. The details can be found using google to find the following thread: From: Carl (crogers@keystoneind.com) Subject: Cadmium and Phthalate Free Denture Acrylic Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry Date: 2003-10-16 07:59:59 PST I've seen a lot of products come and go during a quarter of a century in this field. Your product MAY be good or have merit. Don't take this personally Carl, but in the absence of the appropriate literature, I have learned to wait 5 years for most new products to be on the market before I will seriously consider using them. SignatureRoy DotSeaEh is .ca | Mr. Roy Brown. I would love to send you a one pound sample of the | Diamond D Heat Cure powder with monomer for you or someone you choose [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] | > || regards | > || U?ytkownik "Roy Brown" <roybrown@sympatico.DotSeaEh> napisa? w wiadomo?ci | > || news:XkAid.24255$OD3.1218343@news20.bellglobal.com... | > || > Ask the lab to give you a discount for the $0.25 they might save per [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] | > || > | > | > || > | >>regards >Carl, > >Please look at my signature line used in this newsgroup and you should be >able to figure out my email, the anti-spam workaround is rather simplistic. >You can contact me by removing the * DotSeaEh * after sympatico and >replacing it with * ca *. OKAY now you will get spam! >You may not realize it, but you have already harvested and used my email >address. On Fri 09/07/2004 at 12:01 you sent myself and about seventy-six [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >link to TomZ's post on Dental town. Too bad the pictures won't download, it >would have been nice to see Tom's work in its final environment. Excellent photos ..... >You stated in that email: >> We say- [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >learned to wait 5 years for most new products to be on the market before I >will seriously consider using them. My advice: Get the sample and try it. If you do not like it throw it away. If you do like it use it. Joel >>Carl, >> [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >>learned to wait 5 years for most new products to be on the market before I >>will seriously consider using them. > >Carl, > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > OKAY now you will get spam! As a Canadian, shouldn't he have said, "DotSeaEh, Eh?" - dentaldoc >> >Carl, >> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >As a Canadian, shouldn't he have said, "DotSeaEh, Eh?" The "eh" gave him away! >- dentaldoc | > >Carl, | > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | | - dentaldoc My linguistic advisor informs me that using Eh is customary not obligatory. Both work, know what I mean, Eh? SignatureRoy DotSeaEh, Eh is .ca, Eh > | > OKAY now you will get spam! > | [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > My linguistic advisor informs me that using Eh is customary not obligatory. > Both work, know what I mean, Eh? Contrary to popular opinion, Kanadians don't always go around saying 'Eh?' at every turn, and we don't go around with a doughnut in one hand and a beer in the other, either. In fact, when I went to the Biolase seminar in Dana Point CA in January of 2003, I heard quite a bit of 'Eh?' from the people at that seminar. Statistically, they would mostly have been USA-ians. Further, when I went to stay with Roy, Carolanne and Molly in Toronto for the <RB> seminar, neither of them said 'Eh?' once, that I remember... and we drank Chineese tea. .... As I remember, it was Molly who had the doughnuts and beer. ;-) Cheeahs SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >> | > OKAY now you will get spam! >> | [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >'Eh?' at every turn, and we don't go around with a doughnut in one hand >and a beer in the other, either. Good to hear ..... I will mention this to Tim Horton! Joel >In fact, when I went to the Biolase seminar in Dana Point CA in January >of 2003, I heard quite a bit of 'Eh?' from the people at that seminar. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Cheeahs >SP That Molly is one great dog!! Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >> | > OKAY now you will get spam! [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Cheeahs > SP SP, Dana Pt. is right up the road (Pacific Coast Highway - PCH) or the I-5 ... too bad you aren't making the trip this January! We could have met up. OC (Orange County) is just next door to San Diego County. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting Molly or her family in person... YET! I have pictures though ... ;-) TW > That Molly is one great dog!! > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Cheeahs > > SP > SP, Dana Pt. is right up the road (Pacific Coast Highway - PCH) or the > I-5 ... too bad you aren't making the trip this January! We could have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > TW Ach... well... one day. If I get the Laser going again, I'll be going to other seminars down there Cheers SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >That Molly is one great dog!! You have hurt Ty's feelings. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Sorry Ty. for anyone interested, Ty is a super dog with great personality. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>That Molly is one great dog!! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > W_B >Sorry Ty. > >for anyone interested, Ty is a super dog with great personality. Does that make me super man ? Just wondering. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Hey,,,, I made you George W_B, now you want to be Clark Kent, too?? Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>Sorry Ty. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >Hey,,,, I made you George W_B, now you want to be Clark Kent, too?? Same guy right ? -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > | As a Canadian, shouldn't he have said, "DotSeaEh, Eh?" > | > | - dentaldoc > My linguistic advisor informs me that using Eh is customary not obligatory. > Both work, know what I mean, Eh? SignatureRoy DotSeaEh, Eh is .ca, Eh That REALLY makes it clear! ;-) I like it! - dentaldoc >Once again I would like to ask for the scientific literature supporting the >claims of superiority for your product. Hint - one Izod impact test result >does not make for scientific literature. Once I am satisfied with the >literature, I will take you up on generous offer. I do not know about the test results but I got the shirt with the alligator ...... > personnaly I hope that the labs having less expencess would make cheaper job > for dentists I hope that, if so, the dentist would also sell it cheaper to the patient. Signature-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-: --- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm --- ---------------------------------------------------- You are right !! We ought to ! > > personnaly I hope that the labs having less expencess would make cheaper job > > for dentists > > I hope that, if so, the dentist would also sell it cheaper to the > patient. Hello, It was called to my attention that there was a thread concerning Diamond D acrylic resin here in sci. med. I figured since I have the most time spent in using this material in the laboaratory perhaps there was some questions regarding my observations using it. To answer Roys statement that my comments about Diamond D are anecdotal is correct, since they are only based on my and other users observations. Since all my information concerning this product is only based on "real world" use, and not clinically controlled testing, my observations will have to be defined as anecdotes. My observations and experiences with Diamond D Acrylic are based on daily usage, in the fabrication of immediate dentures, conventional dentures, partial dentures, acrylic partial temporary or provisional dentures, transitional full dentures, and relines. I have used several, popular brands of acrylics over the last 20 years. I use the standard 8 hour long cure polymerization technique with a prior 1 hour bench set and slow cool to room temperature. Lucitone 199, Fricke Hi I, and Candulor acrylic base, are a few that I have past long term experience with. None performed as well, based on MY criteria. Simple things, like the wetting properties, and working consistency of the material. I like a homogenous doughy consistency when I pack, not material with flakey dried edges like some materials exhibit. I trial pack everything several times, I like the gloss to matte effect I observe when I initially open and remove the plastic sheet. In my mind this tells me that the wetting is complete. In 24 months of usage I have not experienced ANY repairs such as tooth delamination or pop off, midline fracture or flange fracture. This includes those paper thin immediate denture flanges we are faced with when conservatively trimming the model when the patient is anteriorly dentulous prior to delivery. Is this acrylic stronger flexurally?, one thing is for sure, its not less flexurally strong, as I have had early repairs with other acrylics in the past and none with Diamond D as of yet. During relines I have not noticed any color differenciation between lots of material. I use pound containers and have several mixed lots that I am processing with. My observation, the color is consistent, scientific data?, nope just my observation. I hope this helps. TomZ Thanks Tom! Joel Tom is a lab tech extraordinaire ... as is Roy!) >Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > >TomZ Thanks for expressing your position Tom. I think we have both been around dentistry about the same amount of time. Back when we started anecdotal evidence and testimonials were common and quite acceptable. Since then a transition towards evidence based dentistry has occurred. The anecdotal just doesn't quite cut it any more. I'm not saying your opinion is invalid, it is just not substantiated. Especially to those who do not know you. The point I was really making, was that when a well known company like Keystone uses this type of stuff in their marketing on an international level. Dropping names like TomZ really means DiddleE to me. In this country, I can count on one hand the individuals whose anecdotal opinions I would respect. That is because I know they have done their research. There are other highly esteemed or self proclaimed individuals whose opinion means squat, simply because they cannot substantiate or validate their position on most of what they spew forth. FWIW your observations have been duly noted. You have been observing results for a couple of years on a product that is intended to last through at least 5-8 years of consistent use, and often ends up being used substantially longer. I'd be interested in hearing how your colours are a few years from now. How are the teeth holding on then? Breakage? I know for me, I am seeing some long cured L199 cases coming back into the office, after only 4 years, looking like the cheap pour acrylics of days gone by. You know that funny sort of orange hue one gets from a cold cure denture. I'd be interested in hearing how that Diamond D is holding up 3 or 4 years from now. Much the same as I'm waiting to hear how the Eclipse is holding up. Anecdotally the number of Success Injection units I see being almost given away in the classified ads or on eBay, tells me something about this "wonderful" technique marketed to us about the lifespan of a denture ago. So it goes .... BTW I like your wax ups. SignatureRoy DotSeaEh is .ca Eh! (for Bill) | Hello, | [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] | | TomZ >There are other highly esteemed or self proclaimed individuals >whose opinion means squat, simply because they cannot substantiate or >validate their position on most of what they spew forth. Bcause they most often have a financial interest in the product ? It's always my first thought when someone endorses anything. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE Roy, Your concerns and comments are appreciated. When I accepted the offer test Diamond D in my laboratory, my concerns were great. Like you, I have watched with great interest the plethora of claims concerning all types of systems and products that are thrust upon us as technicians. For the most part, the product is sold to the prescriber long before there is any evidence base provided by the laboratory. Dentists are led to believe that if the product specs out in the testing lab, that it should be alright once in situ. As we have seen from the failure of many products presented in this fashion, someone gets burned. My experiences, like yours, tends to produce a jaundiced eye toward any claims of better, stronger, and so forth. So, with that in mind, I approached the offer to help test and develop Diamond D with great trepidation. Initially, I believe I turned back 4 test lots which I felt hadnt met the working characteristic parameters alone. I used the material initially only on treatment or temporary appliances. I felt that these kinds of appliances would test the strength issue better since many times the situation is less than ideal. After a few months of using Diamond D in these kinds of appliances, I started using it gradually on definitive appliances. It wasnt scientific for sure, but it was evidence based, as I was not seeing any initial problems with the material. Let me backtrack for second Roy, and let you know I am not a research chemist or polymer chemist, just a technician that is always looking for ways to enhance and deliver a better product. My endorsement of this product comes from my own experience, and I can appreciate that my endorsement means squat to many. I produce a great denture, I have a great client base, I love to share my knowledge of my craft, but this isnt religion. My approach to dental technology has always been techniques first, materials second. Its amazing how much we lean on technology to overcompensate for our lack of technical expertise. Literally my balls are on the line every time someone asks me about what I use to construct my dentures. I am always very careful to emphasize that techniques are numero uno, and that great products only enhance the technique. Roy, before I digress further you had some other things I would like to address. You mentioned color, you are absolutely correct, it is a time sensitive test. I am only now getting some of those immediate dentures back for reline, but I like what I see after I process fresh material to the denture. So far, no discoloration. You also ask about tooth adhesion.I cant supply electron microscopy as to the bond at a molecular level, but I will say that I have not had 1 delamination in 2 years. Did I ever have tooth debonding or delamination with other acrylics? ocassionally. Was it inside of 2 years of fabrication? Almost always. What does this mean? Maybe I am lucky, maybe I have good technique, maybe Diamond D has better tooth adhesion. I know that when I miss some wax on the lingual portion of a tooth and the case is processed, I cant just flick the flash off, it literally has to be shaved away with a sharp instrument. Sorry to have gobbled up so much bandwidth here. Roy, if you want, call me if you have any other questions. By the way, those are the finished dentures in the website ,not waxups. Regards TomZ www.matrixdentallab.com > Thanks for expressing your position Tom. > [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > | > | TomZ >Roy, > >Your concerns and comments are appreciated. >When I accepted the offer test Diamond D in my laboratory, my concerns >were great. Why not just try it and if its no good toss it? Joel > Like you, I have watched with great interest the plethora >of claims concerning all types of systems and products that are thrust [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >seen from the failure of many products presented in this fashion, >someone gets burned. Make a denture and see what happens ....... Like I do with fast food or something. If its lousy, its my last. Joel >My experiences, like yours, tends to produce a jaundiced eye toward >any claims of better, stronger, and so forth. So, with that in mind, I [quoted text clipped - 134 lines] >> | >> | TomZ >You mentioned color, you are absolutely correct, it is a time >sensitive test. I am only now getting some of those immediate dentures >back for reline, but I like what I see after I process fresh material >to the denture. So far, no discoloration. I just try stuff without a load of documentation ....... If its bad I spit it out. Same for dentures ... well kinda ...... so interesting.. any new material witch would improve dentures are welcomed. Itnteresting is reaction from germany.Today one of dentist claimed that They have this product from 10 years..fanny.I have nothing against German dentistry excpet they are not-creative and they dont find nothing important from long time .. They are known only becouse dental products company and they are lossing preffering more complicated and more expensive methods.Everybody knows so simply is the best even in dentistry >>You mentioned color, you are absolutely correct, it is a time >>sensitive test. I am only now getting some of those immediate dentures [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Same for dentures ... well kinda ...... Tom, I've selected portions of your text to comment on below. | Like you, I have watched with great interest the plethora | of claims concerning all types of systems and products that are thrust | upon us as technicians. For the most part, the product is sold to the | prescriber long before there is any evidence base provided by the | laboratory. I agree. Would you not agree that as informed consumers in an evidence based health profession, we should not be accepting this behaviour from the manufacturers? Especially when the sale of the material is restricted to, or on the order of a professional. I just grabbed a container of acrylic to check the wording. The first one in sight happened Lucitone Clear. The first line on the package reads "Cadmium Free", the last line reads "CAUTION: U.S. federal Law restricts this device to sale by, or on the order of, a dentist." This is a prime example of what I am talking about. Dentsply is a major player in the field. They are trying to sell me on the fact that they have not added any pigment to a product that is intended to be colourless. How friggin stupid do they think we are? Would the drug companies, also regulated by your FDA, get away with the same kind of behaviour. I can imagine the outcry if Pfizer or a similar firm released a new drug on the market without the proper clinical trials, allowing the end user to become the only field tests. I can imagine how they would be perceived if they labelled a laxative in bold on the package with the phrase "Does not cause constipation" | You also ask about tooth adhesion.I cant supply electron microscopy as | to the bond at a molecular level, but I will say that I have not had 1 | delamination in 2 years. Did I ever have tooth debonding or | delamination with other acrylics? ocassionally IMO the manufacturer should be doing the testing in the lab prior to releasing the product. What does it take to process a bunch of teeth to some acrylic and run them through some shear or tension tests, compare those numbers to what we actually expect the product to experience during use. Volvo takes great pride in telling us how they smash their cars into concrete walls and Honda has started telling us how they started driving their cars into Crash Test Dummies all in an effort to get the layperson to buy their product. Don't you think the dental manufacturers could be doing something similar? I don't know how many times I've heard some one say that they won't use brand X teeth with Brand Y acrylic because they don't bond. When I can use the same materials on a regular basis without a problem. Every time I do hear something like this, I flash back to my formal education and the words " you should control the materials, and not let your materials be in control of you". | By the way, those are the finished dentures in the website ,not | waxups. I still stand by what I said. "BTW I like your wax ups." We both know you could not get the finished product looking anything as nice as those on your site if the waxup sucked. The free gingival rolls and interproximal papilla show me a lot. Here is a link to a site of a man that also does some nice work: http://www.tnd.dk/tnduk/TNDARTICLE.html I'd recommend Ren? la Cour's book or courses to anyone. What he can do with wax should be inspiring to most. To tell you the truth, I had a hard time distinguishing between the natural and the prosthesis in the mouth, close up on a theatre screen . Many of his slides were even better than this one ( the best on the page above): http://www.tnd.dk/images/4.jpg How about sticking around for a while and discussing something other than Diamond D? It appears the group is finally weary of Jan. SignatureRoy DotSeaEh is .ca | Roy, | [quoted text clipped - 147 lines] | > | | > | TomZ I asked technicians for opinion from practise and i hope to get their opinions soon. Personnaly I am checking it also. I am really careful for University opinions I preffer clinical observations.If this will be have effect in reality and as I noticed extra esthetic and better propriety Thats mean Its a good stuff!! regards > Tom, > I've selected portions of your text to comment on below. [quoted text clipped - 267 lines] > | > | > | > | TomZ Krzysztof reminds me of Mikey, in the cereal commercial who will try anything. The grass looks greener on the other side of the fence. SignatureRoy DotSeaEh is .ca |I asked technicians for opinion from practise and i hope to get their | opinions soon. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | | U Roy, I like your passion for what we do! You would find that you have many technicians in agreement with most, if not all of what you have to say about materials and the way they are tested prior to release to the dental laboratory consumer. Fortunately, I believe the trend we discuss is on the downturn. Again, I believe its the way in which products are marketed to our dentists first, then in return, request the system or material. Dental technology tends to be reactive rather than proactive, so the attitude of give the client what he asks for without asking the hard questions abound. I said it previously, if the technician and dental laboratory worked on technique first, and then used a material to enhance what they do, instead of looking for a panacea to offset lack of time which usually compromises technique, this stuff would go away. With all this being said, one must also look at what type of product is being introduced. It can get a bit ridiculous to apply the same rigors of testing equally to say, a resin to metal bonding system and a new colored alginate separator. If there was, how would a manufacturer ever recover the costs to launch the separator except to pass the research costs along. Things like cytotoxicity and health related issues should never be compromised, but from there, I think its the manufacturers reponsibilty to adequately test a product for its ability to perform as stated. Which bring me to your question concerning acrylic base testing. Denture base acrylics are very hard to test "in lab" and adequately portray "field" performance. Why, because in the field there are no controls. If a material is lab tested on performance based on say an a bench set, 8 hour cure,and a long cool, what about all the other ideas technicians have concerning what they think they can get away with during the curing. Its amazing the things I have seen and heard of being done in labs that swings so far off of the directions for use, how could anyone LAB test for EVERY nuance, the answer is they cant, they can only test within a certain + or - parameter of the recommedation of use. Field testing aids this. Tooth bonding was another concern you had, and you ask a very legitimate question concerning shear tests. "Why couldnt teeth be cured to acrylic and then tested on shear strengths" I believe the question should be at what degree of inclination, rotation, and force do you want to test the shear strength on? How does one adequately test something like that in the lab? Every patient has different occlusion parameters in regard to the condyle, condyle head and articular emminence which produces various angles and degrees. The testing jigs for something like this would be just too cost ineffective. Keystone understood this and this is why I put more creedance into "field" testing a material like Diamond D acrylic rather than relying solely on limited "lab" testing. My results and others field observations, are the base for the claims of this material, so at this point the consumer will have to decide. Enough of this, hey, I have owned LaCours book for years. I bought it through Austenal back in a day. Great book, talented technician. I tend to be more subtle in my approach than he, but this is based on nothing more than preference. At a certain level its all about interpretation anyway. As far as sticking around, thanks for the invite, like most of the forums I participate in, I will eventually wear out my welcome. I will add this forum as a place to visit as I surf. Thanks Roy > Tom, > I've selected portions of your text to comment on below. [quoted text clipped - 231 lines] > | > | > | > | TomZ Tom. Physical testing is not all that expensive when outsourced to labs that already own the equipment and are in the business of testing. Think of it as paying a cab fare rather than buying a vehicle to use as a taxi. We are not talking millions of dollars to get results for impact, compressive, shear, tensile and flexural strengths. And not much more for to measure other various physical properties over time. Then compare to the standards and model to similar in vivo done elsewhere and follow up with field monitoring. QA is becoming the defacto standard in business today. Giving the client what they ask for without asking the hard questions puts the lab into a higher risk situation. It is the lab that is taking the risks not the manufacturer. What would your accounts say if you told them you will use that new tooth or whatever, that is guaranteed for five years, but they or the patient will have to pay the full lab and/or clinical cost of replacing it if it fails prematurely. My perception of la Cours, was that he was demonstrating what is possible using the extreme. Analogous to a company that makes home gym equipment, using a well developed six pack to sell the concept of what is possible to someone that only wants to lose their spare tire or love handles. SignatureRoy DotSeaEh is .ca | Roy, | [quoted text clipped - 123 lines] | > http://www.tnd.dk/tnduk/TNDARTICLE.html | > I'd recommend Ren? la Cour's book or courses to anyone. What he can do with | > wax should be inspiring to most. To tell you the truth, I had a hard time | > distinguishing between the natural and the prosthesis in the mouth, close up [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] | > | > | Roy, snip > I can imagine how they would be perceived if they >labelled a laxative in bold on the package with the phrase "Does not cause >constipation" Hilarious. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE |
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