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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / November 2004principal dentist withholds fees for failed treatment
Hi guys, Looking for opinions from dentists on principals withholding money from associates. I have had £1500 taken from me and the dentist is refusing to refund any of it because of 'failed treatment'. I signed a 2 year contract with him in october 2000 which allowed him to withhold for 6 months ie until april 2003- thing is I stayed on out of contract until august 2003.He did not withhold in october 2002 as contracted but waited until august 2003 after I left. He sold the practice in january 2004 and I wrote to him in march 2004 asking for my money back.He did not contact me until july 2004 saying that I owed him over £5000 for failed treatment and bad debts. Thing is over 90% of my income came from NHS exempt (they don't pay anything)patients.I am in the UK He is billing me privately for repairing work. Needless to say I am unhappy and want to know if this is widespread or was I just unlucky. All opinions and advice welcome. Jarlath >Hi guys, >Looking for opinions from dentists on principals withholding money >from associates. I have had £1500 taken from me and the dentist is >refusing to refund any of it because of 'failed treatment'. Send a letter, Return Receipt Requested, and then go to court. FAILED in his mind, does not mean failed. >I signed a 2 year contract with him in october 2000 which allowed him >to withhold for 6 months ie until april 2003- thing is I stayed on out [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >asking for my money back.He did not contact me until july 2004 saying >that I owed him over £5000 for failed treatment and bad debts. What's in the contract about bad debt? >Thing is over 90% of my income came from NHS exempt (they don't pay >anything)patients.I am in the UK [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >All opinions and advice welcome. >Jarlath > >Hi guys, > >Looking for opinions from dentists on principals withholding money > >from associates. I have had ?1500 taken from me and the dentist is > >refusing to refund any of it because of 'failed treatment'. Did he give _you_ the oportunity of correcting the claimed failed treatments? Usually if someone (like a tradesman) does faulty work you have to offer them the oportunity to fix it. You can't just have someone else fix and bill them unless they refuse to come and make good. > >Hi guys, > >Looking for opinions from dentists on principals withholding money [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > What's in the contract about bad debt? Hi Joel, I pay 55% of bad debts and 55% of cost of collection through debt collectors or the courts-thats what the contract says. What I would really like to know is if the contract is invalid because the arrangment was only for 2 years. I am tempted to go to the small claims court over this but I think it might be very difficult for a non dental judge to understand the point you previously made- that his idea of failure is not an independent assessment by an unbiased party- notwithstanding the fact that failure may be patient driven- ie if they get in a fight and brake a veneer. > I am tempted to go to the small claims court over this but I think it > might be very difficult for a non dental judge to understand the point > you previously made- that his idea of failure is not an independent > assessment by an unbiased party- notwithstanding the fact that failure > may be patient driven- ie if they get in a fight and brake a veneer. This sort of thing is why you normally have to allow traders to make defects good themselves before you hire someone else. Did he ask you to rectify the supposed defective work and/or did you refuse to do so? That would count against you in court. I suggest you go see your solicitor (or perhaps the BDA have one?). Solicitors these days give you 30 mins free to discuss your case and explain how they can help. Very worthwhile to do this before you go to small claims court. On 31 Oct 2004 05:29:29 -0800, jarlathloftus@fsmail.net (Jarlath) >Hi Joel, >I pay 55% of bad debts and 55% of cost of collection through debt [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >assessment by an unbiased party- notwithstanding the fact that failure >may be patient driven- ie if they get in a fight and brake a veneer. Unless you have total control over the front desk and how billing and collection is handled, you got suckered into a lousy deal. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. Jarlath, the guy is BSing you. How much of your gross did you receive? 50% I guess (that's the standard deal in the UK). If you pay 55% for bad debts, your contract was sh.t to start with. If you were working as an associate and not as an assistant, you're an independent contractor to the NHS and the patients you see are YOUR patients and not the principal's. If there was a complaint about failed treatment, he should have notified you if he took action to amend it. My advice is to contact the BDA (if you're a member), although they will not support you in a legal challenge if the principal is also a member, or your defence union (DPL used to settle cases of fincancial issues between dentists if I remember corrently). > Jarlath, the guy is BSing you. How much of your gross did you receive? > 50% I guess (that's the standard deal in the UK). If you pay 55% for [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > your defence union (DPL used to settle cases of fincancial issues > between dentists if I remember corrently). I ran the contract by DPL(Dental Protection) and they have issued me with a written report saying it is an unfair contract-they use the word unreasonable quite a lot. I would most like to fight the case on the grounds that the contract did not apply as I was out of contract when I left and therefore he had no authority to withhold to begin with. I have thrown this issue up on alt legal uk and uk legal but so far the lawyers aren't being as helpful as the dentists. >All opinions and advice welcome. >Jarlath You need an attorney. Quickly. Belive that in the UK they are refered to as 'solicitors'. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>All opinions and advice welcome. >>Jarlath > >You need an attorney. Quickly. >Belive that in the UK they are refered to as 'solicitors'. While in the U.S. soliciting is against the law ....... Barristor Solicitors > >>All opinions and advice welcome. > >>Jarlath [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > While in the U.S. soliciting is against the law ....... Hopefully a UK dentist will see this and chime in. Most of us are USA bound and don't really understand NHS, nor why any self-respecting dentist would agree to work in that system. >Hi guys, >Looking for opinions from dentists on principals withholding money [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >All opinions and advice welcome. >Jarlath .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. > Hopefully a UK dentist will see this and chime in. Most of us are USA > bound and don't really understand NHS, nor why any self-respecting > dentist would agree to work in that system. Well, at first you get the impression that you're providing a valuable community service. After some time that differs depending on the practitioner, that impression vanishes. For me it was when I did my "on-call" emergency session. Guy phones 4 pm with toothache, walks in at 7 pm. He isn't registered with any NHS dentist, so this means he probably hasn't seen any dentist in a while. It also means I am perfectly capable of charging him privately (say £50), but I don't because I feel I'm already being paid by the NHS for the session and I don't like exploiting people in pain. So I do the extraction he needed and I ask for the standard NHS patient charge, which is around £10 I think. Turns out he doesn't even have that kind of money. What the hell I say, bring it sdome other day. After he leaves, my nurse points to me the bag containing the brand new trainers he was sporting along. Seems he had a little shopping to do before he visited us. It was then I said f.ck those people and f.ck the NHS. George That is why so few professionals are willing to work for the welfare system. It is so abused, that we never can tell if anyone is legitimate or not. Rule of thumb in my office for any new patient in pain. the get radiographs, diagnosis, and anesthetic. then, they go to the front desk and pay the entire bill for today. If they pay, I do the work. No pay, well, they get a copy of their radiographs for free and are asked to return with the money. Their numbness will last for a few hours, so they got some temporary relief. If they were just hoping for drugs, forget it as prescriptions do not get written for these people until the bill is paid either.  Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... >> Hopefully a UK dentist will see this and chime in. Most of us are USA >> bound and don't really understand NHS, nor why any self-respecting [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > George >That is why so few professionals are willing to work for the welfare system. >It is so abused, that we never can tell if anyone is legitimate or not. TRUE. But DoralUSA sure cleaned it up! Joel >Rule of thumb in my office for any new patient in pain. the get >radiographs, diagnosis, and anesthetic. then, they go to the front desk and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >prescriptions do not get written for these people until the bill is paid >either. Before I went on my ranting, I planned to make a valiable point. There is a mailing list for british dentists, which is called GDP-UK and can be found at groups.yahoo.com. I'm sure they can give you a lot fo info and it is a very good place to get all the latest info about british dental politics, happenings, etc. George > Hopefully a UK dentist will see this and chime in. Most of us are USA > bound and don't really understand NHS, nor why any self-respecting > dentist would agree to work in that system. Yes, I have worked in the Republic of Ireland where it is a private dental system, and patients have more respect for dentists and dentistry.The more you spend on something, the more you value it.However dentistry is so expensive that all I did over there was extract teeth and fillings. So I moved to the UK where the stakes are lower and I could get experience of C&B and RCT. However when you are a young dentist, you are at the mercy of more experienced colleagues (green),and you have to learn your trade, so you have to work in a low cost, low risk environment to gain confidence in handling people etc. We are only 23 when we qualify over here, whereas I believe 26-28 is the norm in the US. You guys are a bit longer in the tooth! > .. > Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. > Troy, Michigan, USA > > Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. Ahhh, the ignorance of youth. When you are really young you just don't get it sometimes. You cannot possibly work in such a system and get good experiences or reasonable pay. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... >> Hopefully a UK dentist will see this and chime in. Most of us are USA >> bound and don't really understand NHS, nor why any self-respecting [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor >> handwriting. >Ahhh, the ignorance of youth. When you are really young you just don't get >it sometimes. You cannot possibly work in such a system and get good >experiences or reasonable pay. U cn ern mo pa if ui cn rd ths. (This was plastered all over New York subways, 30-40 years ago) Joel > U cn ern mo pa if ui cn rd ths. > > (This was plastered all over New York subways, 30-40 years ago) > > Joel ui? Cn u gt a gd jb? S SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > >Ahhh, the ignorance of youth. When you are really young you just don't get > >it sometimes. You cannot possibly work in such a system and get good [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Joel What? You had text message 30 years ago? God bless America! >> >Ahhh, the ignorance of youth. When you are really young you just don't get >> >it sometimes. You cannot possibly work in such a system and get good [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >What? You had text message 30 years ago? >God bless America! YUP, we had the internet shortlay after WWII. Joel There were ads on it back then. >YUP, we had the internet shortlay after WWII. > >Joel > >There were ads on it back then. Makes sense considering that the very first computers were used in the war to break encryption or calculate trajectories for shells. Adenosine >>YUP, we had the internet shortlay after WWII. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Makes sense considering that the very first computers were used in the >war to break encryption or calculate trajectories for shells. Blatchford Park and Enigma? The first computer/computer was developed slightly after the war at the Moore School of Electrical Engineering on Penn's campus .... Eniac - vacuum tube affair ...... Joel >Adenosine >> Hopefully a UK dentist will see this and chime in. Most of us are USA >> bound and don't really understand NHS, nor why any self-respecting [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >extract teeth and fillings. So I moved to the UK where the stakes are >lower and I could get experience of C&B and RCT. Did you have any problem with the language going from place to place? I am kidding I know they all speak American over there! Joel >However when you are a young dentist, you are at the mercy of more >experienced colleagues (green),and you have to learn your trade, so [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. >We are only 23 when we qualify over >here, whereas I believe 26-28 is the norm in the US. >You guys are a bit longer in the tooth! I graduated at 25. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>We are only 23 when we qualify over >>here, whereas I believe 26-28 is the norm in the US. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com I was a teeny-tiny dentist at just barely 24. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 30 Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>>We are only 23 when we qualify over [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Steve "Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS" > > I graduated at 25. > > -- > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I was a teeny-tiny dentist at just barely 24. How old was your twin brother then? > Steve 25 for me, and already a gentleman at that time. carabelli > "Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS" > > I graduated at 25. > > > -- [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > 25 for me, and already a gentleman at that time. Do you not have to do a 4 year science degree and then 4 years of dentistry? By the way the UK solicitors are finally pulling rank-I posted on 2 uk legal sites on google. > > "Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS" > > I graduated at 25. > > > > -- [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Do you not have to do a 4 year science degree and then 4 years of > dentistry? Graduated High School (sorry to rub your nose in it again Jan) at 17 Graduated with a B.S. at 21 DDS at 25 MS in ortho at 27 Growing up - soon By the way the UK solicitors are finally pulling rank-I posted on 2 uk > legal sites on google. Good, keep us informed. carabelli I made it out of high school at 17, but from there I took a more circuitous route and didn't get out of dental school until I was 26. Fawks > Graduated High School (sorry to rub your nose in it again Jan) at 17 > Graduated with a B.S. at 21 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > carabelli |
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