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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / November 2004Dental Software Prices - Too High?
Not a sales pitch. I am doing a straw poll and would appreciate some feed back on pricing for to following product mixes. I am planning next year's pricing structure. What I am looking for is what realistic price would you be prepared to pay - assuming you were in the market for them and they worked to your satisfaction. 1/ Intra Oral Camera Software. Non Jerky, Deintelaced Video, capturing full-screen stills, high quality movie clips (better than DVD) and special handling for X-Ray attachments to an internal database or common image formats e.g. JPG, BMP, TIFF & PNG, AVI, WMV. Can also be called as a TWAIN device for integration with any system. CAN BE USED IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT WAY from normal software. You can take 4 video clips (internal, external top & bottom) and take High quality stills from them. The quality is certainly good enough. Review the video with the patient etc. 2/ X-Ray & Intra-Oral Camera / Scanner Software. All of the above plus advanced X-Ray analysis tools - simple to use and easily outperforming currently available software, Scanner support. All feedback very much appreciated. Free - VixWin > Not a sales pitch. I am doing a straw poll and would appreciate some feed > back on pricing for to following product mixes. I am planning next year's [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > All feedback very much appreciated. If I am correct and you walk up to the door and ask for a Free Copy....... :D > Free - > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> >> All feedback very much appreciated. >If I am correct and you walk up to the door and ask for a Free Copy....... It comes free with the hardware over here. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. Vix Win and our product are very different. Vix Win was very good in its day.......... but that has long passed and we now use very different and updated technologies - Full screen non-jerky full motion video and better than DVD video recording for example. According to my 'sources' VixWin is included as part of a quite expensive system - only. Therefore I would not regard that as free at all but bundled. We can all play 'FREE' ;) If you want mine "FREE" you can buy the forthcoming USB2 SpectraVU Camera for example. >Vix Win and our product are very different. Vix Win was very good in its >day.......... but that has long passed and we now use very different and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >We can all play 'FREE' ;) If you want mine "FREE" you can buy the >forthcoming USB2 SpectraVU Camera for example. why would I want video? I can take an infinite number of still images on any patient during any exam, Patients want to look at the image for a while to absorb the information. They need still photos. Same for printing images.' .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. >Free - > >VixWin Hey ! the mans gotta make a livin' ! -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Hey John, See this at you-know-where? Joel John, that is cool. I don't use digital XRAYs but if I did I would ask questions. Currently I use the RF system of intraoral cameras. ********************** >Not a sales pitch. I am doing a straw poll and would appreciate some feed >back on pricing for to following product mixes. I am planning next year's [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >All feedback very much appreciated. No (confused) Email me please? > Hey John, > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >> >>All feedback very much appreciated. >Not a sales pitch. I am doing a straw poll and would appreciate some feed >back on pricing for to following product mixes. I am planning next year's [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >All feedback very much appreciated. Sorry John, but I would expect it free with the hardware. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. Thanks for the answer and the ones emailed to me. Dentists in America seem to want no choice of software with their camera and for it to be included in the price of the hardware. A similar example might be..... you got windows paint for 'free' with your windows package - but I bet you paid for something better for editing pictures - Paintshop Pro / Photoshop etc. Why is that? As I said above - mine does come 'free' with some camera and X-Ray hardware. But it is not really free - because us software authors get paid for it - so YOU paid for it. This means however that you can be stuck with great hardware and cr*p under-performing software because some marketing type chose your software for you and got it cheap. But if 1/ you want to use the new imaging paradigm that we are (successfully) testing - which really changes the whole use of the camera., saving time and adding a new dimension to the patient experience 2/ you have old hardware with tired old (often Win311 or Win95) technology software that needs a facelift 3/ you bought a camera with no software - and there are many of those - the ones designed to be used with TV monitors. MOST intra oral cameras sold worldwide are used like this 4/you are fed up with watching postcard size (at best) video windows. 5/you want video clips You might need new software or upgrade.. If you bought a camera for $3000 and $300 of software would double its usefulness, it appears to me to be a short-sighted view. Alas the 'something for (apparently) nothing' culture seems to have won over reason in the USA. Fortunately (for me) this view does not prevail in Europe. They take a view that if its free you got what you paid for. > Alas the 'something for (apparently) nothing' culture seems to have won over > reason in the USA. > > Fortunately (for me) this view does not prevail in Europe. They take a view > that if its free you got what you paid for. I will remember this for when (if) I ever get an I/O camera and computer. I've saved your post here and all others you (and DrS) wrote concerning this. Thanks SP  SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >Dentists in America seem to want no choice of software with their camera and >for it to be included in the price of the hardware. Hey don't lump us all together. I am very interested in your software but can't meet the hardware requirements just yet. It will be some time but you may consider me 'sold'. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE > >Dentists in America seem to want no choice of software with their camera and > >for it to be included in the price of the hardware. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It will be some time but you may consider me 'sold'. Speaking of which, what ARE the requirements re: hardware. I don't even have a Windoz box, so knowing that would be good. Thanks SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >> I am very interested in your software but can't meet >> the hardware requirements just yet. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Thanks >SP Here's a hint: It ain't a Mac. Last time you were at the electronics store did they have an aisle for Mac software ? Didn't think so. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE > >Speaking of which, what ARE the requirements re: hardware. I don't even > >have a Windoz box, so knowing that would be good. > >Thanks > >SP > > Here's a hint: It ain't a Mac. I'm not stuupid... I know that it ain't a Mac > Last time you were at the electronics store did they have an aisle > for Mac software ? Nope.... This means that I get some good games for the Mac second and third-hand for next to nothing. This is the same mentality that led me to pick up the Biolase M-1 second hand. Now, THAT was a mistake, I'll freely admit it. Anyone wants some advice re: buying lasers can ask me. > Didn't think so. Would you let me answer the question before answering it FOR me, already???. Ahem....<rustle, snap suspenders, take a breath...> NO!!!! There is NOT an aisle for Mac software in Quebec or anywhere else, for that matter. NOW, you're supposed to say: Didn't think so... .... And I'm supposed to insult you back, and we are supposed to go round and round a la Jan Drew..... boaring... Instead, I'm going to go give my little girl a shower, as she just came back from trick or treating and it was cold and rainy out there... Cheeahs SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet O >Instead, I'm going to go give my little girl a shower, as she just came >back from trick or treating and it was cold and rainy out there... > >Cheeahs >SP Cool but dry here. Salvatore got the kid next door to go with him this year. They went to the end of the usual route and back in record time. Amazing how another young boy will encourage some actual running and competition. Mrs. Steve and I are thoroughly amazed at the differences in Halloween compared to when we were kids (inner city kids, too). .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. > O > >Instead, I'm going to go give my little girl a shower, as she just came [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > time. Amazing how another young boy will encourage some actual > running and competition. ... Triplett effect. Remember 'Chariots of Fire'? The guy at the beginning who was timing the two riders going around the building? Triplett was one of those coaches, and he noticed that if you put two riders,,,, ANY two riders, to the task of doing a practice run side by side, they will always do better than either one would individually. There is a natural competition effect even if there is no real declared contest. > Mrs. Steve and I are thoroughly amazed at the differences in Halloween > compared to when we were kids (inner city kids, too). Yeah, I think I know what you mean... These days they will refuse anything that isn't store-wrapped and sterilized... When we were kids, we'd get a couple of spoonfuls of unwrapped Smarties and we were thankful. > .. Cheers, Happy All Hallows Evening SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet Its legalized mugging here :( The kids (about 14 years old) called on my neighbour on Saturday Night and demanded trick or treat. The were offered a handful of candy. They said they only wanted money so give them some money!. The neighbour refused, had a brick though the windows - followed by a couple of eggs. Later that evening the kids were carted to hospital two of them suffering with 'alcoholic poisoning'. Next year I will be offering them cheap booze and cut out the local store's margin. ;) I hope they had a hangover for a week. > Its legalized mugging here :( > The were offered a handful of candy. They said they only wanted money so > give them some money!. The neighbour refused, had a brick though the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I hope they had a hangover for a week. Gads.... never saw those neighborhoods of London.... When I was last there, even the truck drivers were polite as hell... Sure has changed, probably... My sympathies. We have 'Mat Night', which is the night b/4 Halloween. The kids go out and switch the Halloween decorations, put soap on the car windows, and do all sorts of other crap. I don't ever remember real damage being done though... Cheers SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet This was in another thread. We are trialing software - needs to be windows 98se or better Intraoral Camera in daily use Prepared to give the new paradigm a fair go write a short report report bugs & suggestions. >> >Dentists in America seem to want no choice of software with their camera >> >and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Thanks > SP > This was in another thread. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > write a short report > report bugs & suggestions. OK,,, as you know, it isn't possible for me now, but maybe soon. Cheers SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet What are you short of? >>Dentists in America seem to want no choice of software with their camera >>and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Take out the G'RBAGE John, No disrespect intended here, honest. Why would we want to buy some outside software when our hardware comes with a software which we know works perfectly well with it? When I bought my Gendex Denoptix machine, they provides the VinWix (or whatever it is called) software. When I told the salesman, I planed to use ES software for imaging, he took $300 off the price of the scanner. For instance, my PC came with MS Outlook express on it. Now I know W_B and others don't care for this product, but for me, it handles my email needs perfectly. Why would I buy another software to handle email, if I perceive no problems with OE? I know this cuts into your business profits, and you honestly believe your product to be better. But, understand that most dental offices never use more than 30% of the software they have. Adding the video capability and the strange 3D effects would be nice to a few offices, but the vast majority would never use them. >Thanks for the answer and the ones emailed to me. > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >Fortunately (for me) this view does not prevail in Europe. They take a view >that if its free you got what you paid for. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. >John, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >email needs perfectly. Why would I buy another software to handle >email, if I perceive no problems with OE? Well, to start things off, it's riddled with security holes. It's a pain in the a.s to view message headers. It's slow. I've had MAJOR problems with multiple versions of Outlook on the same network because of PST file incompatibilities. Outlook seems to have a real problem with IMAP servers, or at least not freezing while using IMAP servers. Saying that OE suits your needs is like saying you like to drive a Yugo around because it gets you from point A to point B just fine. And it does, but you could certainly do better if you got a car whose keys weren't the free prize in a Cracker Jack box. For the record, I use Mulberry for my mail needs. >I know this cuts into your business profits, and you honestly believe >your product to be better. But, understand that most dental offices >never use more than 30% of the software they have. Adding the video >capability and the strange 3D effects would be nice to a few offices, >but the vast majority would never use them. Dentists will buy anything. To reference current SMD topics, look at the HealOZONE. And this piece of software is probably USEFUL! I think that once you SEE what you can get with a better piece of software, it is hard to go back to meritocracy. Adenosine >>John, >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >it does, but you could certainly do better if you got a car whose keys >weren't the free prize in a Cracker Jack box. You obviously haven't see SM's car(s). >For the record, I use Mulberry for my mail needs. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >that once you SEE what you can get with a better piece of software, it >is hard to go back to meritocracy. Mediocrity ? But I agree. >Adenosine -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>Saying that OE suits your needs is like saying you like to drive a >>Yugo around because it gets you from point A to point B just fine. And >>it does, but you could certainly do better if you got a car whose keys >>weren't the free prize in a Cracker Jack box. > >You obviously haven't see SM's car(s). a Yugo is actually a luxury car compared to 2-3 of the vehicles I own. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. >>>Saying that OE suits your needs is like saying you like to drive a >>>Yugo around because it gets you from point A to point B just fine. And [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. Just last year I got my first car that was made after I was. Not because it was any newer, just that I got older. Adenosine Proud owner of a $700 '85 Honda Accord Hatchback >>>>Saying that OE suits your needs is like saying you like to drive a >>>>Yugo around because it gets you from point A to point B just fine. And [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Adenosine >Proud owner of a $700 '85 Honda Accord Hatchback All my cars are younger than me. Not by much, though. I am thinking of adding a 12V power outlet (hidden) under the dash of my SAAB. Last club outing I went to, I ended up going the wrong way on a road 40 miles from home. The street numbers changed at the various city limits, so I could not orientate by street numbers, and the sky was cloudy, so solar steering was out of the question. Next time, I will plug in the GPS and find my way the first time. I'll be the only guy driving down the road in 50 year old technology with a modern GPS on the dash. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. Yes. Dr Steve a card carrying Eaglesoft Luddite? Surely not? ;) >>>Saying that OE suits your needs is like saying you like to drive a >>>Yugo around because it gets you from point A to point B just fine. And [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor > handwriting. Next year I am targeting Amish Dentists. No new fangled Yugos for them! - seems like an untapped niche. Its based on Dwarfish Imp technology. You pick up the box containing the Imp to patient mouth level, he dashes off a quick sketch and pushes it out through the slot (this was the concept behind the Amish Poloroid Camera after all). They key to the upgrade is that we have given the Imp a Magnifying Glass. (I must stop buying Walmart Drugs) > Yes. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor >> handwriting. I am confused. What did you mean by that post, John? Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > Yes. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor >> handwriting. English humour - was a bit of fun poking. Sorry if it did not translate. >>W_B and others don't care for this product, but for me, it handles my >>email needs perfectly. Why would I buy another software to handle >>email, if I perceive no problems with OE? > >Well, to start things off, it's riddled with security holes. It's a >pain in the a.s to view message headers. It's slow Microshaft puts out crapware. Why else would they name it OutHouse Express ? <hehe> Seriously now, well written software does *not* need to be 'patched'. AND each subsequent ver should be better than the last one. Not the case with MS . For the record currently use Agent for NG and Netscape for mail. (have used many others for both tasks) The security issues with Internet Explorer and OutHouse are enough for me to avoid them like the plague. Just another example of MS Bloatware. BTW we once ran win 3.11 on a AMD 300. Smoking fast. Then we put win95 on it, what a slow down. IMNSHO MS writes slower and slower bloatware to drive the faster and faster hardware market. Opinions ? -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE If you saw a couple of cars in my garage, you would realize a Yugo would fit right in. One could fix-up and tune a Yugo to be very useful. OE is not adequate for you because you do more with email than I do. The only things (which I have had the honor of seeing) different about John's program is the video clips and the 3D thingy. Everything else his software does, I can already do with mine. The video and 3D stuff is neat for showing off, but I see no useful clinical application for it. Remember, that I use my IO camera many times each day. Remember that I only use digital radiography and use imaging software all day long. I have my monitors placed so the patient can see EVERYTHING I can see on it. I use the imaging software to demonstrate what I am seeing and help them understand. I do not mean John any harm nor any disrespect. He seems like a kind and compassionate man who deserves all the world can provide him. However, I think his product is not going to do well on this side of the pond. His competition is too BIG. >>John, >> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > >Adenosine .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. Hi Steve. Firstly, let me thank you for engaging in this little debate. Its very refreshing change from the Drew 'Dog & Pony Show'. > If you saw a couple of cars in my garage, you would realize a Yugo > would fit right in. One could fix-up and tune a Yugo to be very > useful. But Anerican Dentists dont drive Model T's or Yugos any more - they moved with the times for more usability and performance. Did you try the 2D X-Ray scanning filters and 2D Enhanced ? (Curious) - I have not seen anything like them elsewhere. >The video and 3D stuff > is neat for showing off, but I see no useful clinical application for it. This is like saying that a Cam Corder will never sell because you have a stills camera and can look around the Grand Canyon while you are there! You can discuss the mouth views while the patient does not have his mouth full of camera! The videos do not need to be taken by the dentist - they can be taken by other suitable staff (depending on local regulations) which saves time You can cherry pick stills, make your stills from the video, while discussing with the patient The video clips can be stored in the database (they are very small in size) and compared later - for tracking perio/ortho progress etc Emailed to consultants / orthodentists Videos can be to patients to take away - yes we are getting requests for this. >I have my monitors placed so the patient can see EVERYTHING I You DONT NEED the extra monitor(s) - most dentists only have one monitor anyway. > However, I think his product is not going to do well on this side of > the pond. His competition is too BIG. You would be very, very surprised if you knew who I was in discussions with. You may soon see this UK software in American Big Vendor livery, wrapped in the Stars & Stripes, sitting by the Lincoln Memorial and whistling Dixie. If this was a new Eaglesoft offering I suspect you would be viewing this in a different light. Hi John, If it was an ES product, I would just be getting the product as part of my package, and using what I liked and ignoring what I did not like. The discussion about my garage (in case you did not know) is due to the fact that I have 5 vehicles build in England. Ranging from a 1960 TR-3A to a modern LR. I also, have a 1957 Isetta and two 2-stroke SAAB's. A yugo would have more luxury features than half of my cars. But, that part was mostly for fun. I checked the sample package you offered for evaluation a while back. It was nicely done, but did not really offer anything (with the exception of the 3D bitmap landscape) I did not already have. As far as video is concerned,,,,,,, back in the 1980's, when I bought my Fugi DentaDam, I could save 4 images from a particular exam and could print them. If I wanted more, I used a VCR machine and simply recorded live video off the camera. I would then return to the taped session with the patient and review pertinent findings by still framing the VCR. Not super high tech compared to today, but it worked. The problem was that is was cumbersome to use. Even though it was all on one cart, it required doing a lot of things at one time, imaging, taping, pausing on important parts of the video exam, etc. Your product may be better, as we had to pause the camera over a surface to get an image which would show up well when still framed on tape later. Today, with the camera hooked up to a networked computer, I still pause over any images I want to show the patient, and say "freeze", if the image is good (meaning I did not move my hand), then I say "save", and the image is captured to the patient's digital record. I can capture 20-50 images in a full exam this way almost as quickly as I can run the camera around the mouth. Then, sit the patient up and review each image one at a time. Would I use live video if I had it? no. I only see that as using more storage space on the hard drive for a bunch of data I would not be using. Interestingly, the DentaCam handpiece had the camera head at the same angle as a typical dental mouth mirror. You could click a button on its processor and invert the image (so that it looked like a mirror image), and work off the video screen at 14X magnification. Very interesting to do dentistry that way. It even had a defroster which blew a stream of air over the camera lens to keep it from fogging up. Back to topic again....... I would be happy to change my mind in the future, but right now, today, with all the time I spend doing imaging, I see no reason I would want to have your 3D or video components. That does not mean the product is NOT well done (sorry for the double negative--I am trying to say the product looks like a good quality product), it just means that in the real world of doing digital dentistry in a day-to-day method, I don't think it would be very useful. Just like adding color to a radiograph. It makes for more WOW, but does not help you see anything you could not already see. What I find truly helpful is having a brightness and a contrast tool built in the same tool. I can take the cursor and move it in a circle over the radiograph and brightness and contrast change as I move the cursor. The live time viewing of changing contrast and brightness will often make the very vague features stand out. BTW, (I suppose your product allows for this too), you can easily have your staff record a series of images in the other room, review them at your desk, then be prepared when you walk into the treatment room. Or, your RDH can do the video exam, then move the patient to the other room, and bring all the images up on the PC in that room. Plus the convenience of being able to print off any combination of images for documentation is great. Having your imaging system networked throughout the office is the only way to go. I used to (in the DentaCam days) get short VCR tapes and offer a copy for the patient to take home. I discover no one wanted a copy to take home. They simply did NOT want it. Perhaps with the modern digital imaging and computer imaging, this may be different now. Please understand I am not saying your product is no good. I am saying I see no real market for the 3D and video portions of it. The remainder is just your version of what is already there. Again, I am willing to change my mind in the near future. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > Hi Steve. > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > If this was a new Eaglesoft offering I suspect you would be viewing this > in a different light. > Today, with the camera hooked up to a networked computer, I still pause over > any images I want to show the patient, and say "freeze", if the image is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I use live video if I had it? no. I only see that as using more storage > space on the hard drive for a bunch of data I would not be using. .... Analyzing dynamic occluding, perhaps...?.,,,, just wondering SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet > What I find truly helpful is having a brightness and a contrast tool built > in the same tool. This is already mine - except I change gamma and contrast which I find even more useful. > BTW, (I suppose your product allows for this too), you can easily have > your staff record a series of images in the other room, review them at [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > great. Having your imaging system networked throughout the office is the > only way to go. Yes it does - agreed > I used to (in the DentaCam days) get short VCR tapes and offer a copy for > the patient to take home. I discover no one wanted a copy to take home. > They simply did NOT want it. Perhaps with the modern digital imaging and > computer imaging, this may be different now. You can email them right out of the application - saves them carrying anything. It seems a useful tool for Mom to persuade Dad that 'Little Tina' should have her teeth fixed instead of buying Dads new SUV ;) > Please understand I am not saying your product is no good. I am saying I > see no real market for the 3D and video portions of it. >The remainder is just your version of what is already there. Then I think you missed the point of two of the 2D tools which is probably my fault for not making them more prominent. Useful feedback I'd be tempted to use video to record deviations of jaw movement. SignatureRoy DotSeaEh is .ca snip | Would | I use live video if I had it? no. I only see that as using more storage | space on the hard drive for a bunch of data I would not be using. I like this guy! A positive comment! Tell me more - how would you use that? > I'd be tempted to use video to record deviations of jaw movement. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > storage > | space on the hard drive for a bunch of data I would not be using. >For instance, my PC came with MS Outlook express on it. Now I know >W_B and others don't care for this product, but for me, it handles my >email needs perfectly. Why would I buy another software to handle >email, if I perceive no problems with OE? Because Outhouse Express is full of crap ? Just an idea. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE > When I told the salesman, I planed >to use ES software for imaging, he took $300 off the price of the >scanner. Curious that. What if I wanna use Photoshop ? Is he gonna take off the price of that program ? Unlikely. PS PDCO sux. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE He deducted the $300 since I was not going to use the software they "bundle" with the product. That was the retail cost, in 1998, for the VixWin software. >> When I told the salesman, I planed >>to use ES software for imaging, he took $300 off the price of the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >PS PDCO sux. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. > Why would we want to buy some outside software when our hardware comes > with a software which we know works perfectly well with it? Fair point well taken. >When I bought my Gendex Denoptix machine, they provides the VinWix (or > whatever it is called) software. When I told the salesman, I planed > to use ES software for imaging, he took $300 off the price of the > scanner. :D Like I said it was not free! > For instance, my PC came with MS Outlook express on it. Now I know > W_B and others don't care for this product, but for me, it handles my > email needs perfectly. Why would I buy another software to handle > email, if I perceive no problems with OE? You would not, obviously. However people upgrade all the time, situations, peformance & techniques improve. Why should you buy this years Car when a Model T would get you to work? However lots do not / will not use VixWin or other old stuff because of its (lack of) performance and assume that all video is jerky and lives in a matchbox sized window. > I know this cuts into your business profits, and you honestly believe > your product to be better. But, understand that most dental offices > never use more than 30% of the software they have. Well using this logic all developers should pack up stay home and sign up for foodstamps? Nonsense :) >Adding the video capability and the strange 3D effects would be nice to a >few offices, > but the vast majority would never use them. Adding live video is clearly not a mistake - the trialers LOVE it and cannot understand why they did not have it before. Its a high quality, instant replay, database aware, digital dental 'VCR' Plus a lot more. Its the middle stuff that I thought you would like..... Special X-Ray support for 'el-cheapo' scanners including special anti-filmgrain filters and X-Ray enhancement tools (non 3D) The 3D stuff is the highest end option and is aimed at, and being bought by, consultants, dental schools and dental hospitals. Strange? Maybe (so was television). Revolutionary - certainly. OK. Shall I take your advice and retire as it seems that all the present and future requirements are clearly being met by existing vendors and products. or just wait for your pals at Eaglesoft to catch up? ;) This sounds like the classic - ridicule, ignore, adopt, promote policy that most big vendors use when presented with product features they cannot match. > Thanks for the answer and the ones emailed to me. > > Dentists in America seem to want no choice of software with their camera and > for it to be included in the price of the hardware. Most dentists (which is certainly not ALL dentists) prefer the bundle. It makes setup easier -- and they expect the supplier to do the setup, too. Dentists wouldn't know what "choice" of software to make. They assume that the manufacturer is smart enough to know what software is needed, and such software is expected with the original purchase. If the hardware manufacturer skimps too much on the software, the hardware gets a bad name, because dentists tend to lump the whole package together. So the hardware manufacturers have a motive to bundle GOOD software with their goods, or risk getting bad reviews. Add-on software is viewed as an additional expense which should have been packaged with the hardware in the first place. > A similar example might be..... you got windows paint for 'free' with your > windows package - but I bet you paid for something better for editing > pictures - Paintshop Pro / Photoshop etc. Why is that? Nope. I looked up aftermarket picture editors on the Web and found several that are available for free, or very little cost. Try "Irfanview" for editing home photos. It's great, and it's free. There are others too. > As I said above - mine does come 'free' with some camera and X-Ray hardware. > But it is not really free - because us software authors get paid for it - so > YOU paid for it. That's a good marketing plan. It should be advantageous for both the software author, who gets paid by the hardware manufacturer, and for the hardware maker too, as his hardware will look great if the operating software is great. American dentists tend to look at the whole package price and whether the whole operation is easy and gives quality results. If the package does not operate well, regardless of whether the fault is in hardware or software, the whole package is given a bad name. > This means however that you can be stuck with great hardware and cr*p > under-performing software because some marketing type chose your software > for you and got it cheap. Yes, exactly. But then the whole package would get a bad name (assuming the dentist warns his colleagues) and the hardware maker would presumably fire the marketing type for his bad judgement. > If you bought a camera for $3000 and $300 of software would double its > usefulness, it appears to me to be a short-sighted view. For $3000, the dentist expects that the necessary software would be included. American dentists love to see "no added costs" for an item. Although some camera makers advertise low costs, when you check out the minimum setup needed, there are significant added costs. Many dentists will pay much more for a rival system simply because there are no "added costs." > Alas the 'something for (apparently) nothing' culture seems to have won over > reason in the USA. It's not as much a "something for nothing" philosophy, as it is a matter of getting full value of what has already been paid for. If a camera only works when it has software, then that software should have been included in the original package. > Fortunately (for me) this view does not prevail in Europe. They take a view > that if its free you got what you paid for. (Check out the free Irfanview software. It was written by - - a European!) American dentists don't necessarily assume it's "free," they just assume that it will be included in the package and feel cheated if they still have to buy more software in addition to the package they paid for. - dentaldoc Sure but when the software you are using was written 8-10 years ago, the dentists are not complaining because this old stuff is the 'standard' and all the vendors are doing similar.... I am hoping it leaves a big enough market gap for us to earn a crust from Dentists who like to update the tools. The US seems a harder nut to crack than Europe - thats for sure. John >> Thanks for the answer and the ones emailed to me. >> [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > > - dentaldoc > Sure but when the software you are using was written 8-10 years ago, the > dentists are not complaining because this old stuff is the 'standard' and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > John Again.... you should go see what DrSteve really is doing in his office and figure out what is the real need for upgrading vs your own percieved need. Just a thought SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet Hmmmmm It seems I have come across as some hick hobby coder. Before I depart (I'm all Drew'd out) I thought I would have my 5 cents. I have visited 17+ surgeries in 4 countries in the last 6 months alone and talk daily on the phone to North American & European Distributors & Dealers Working for 2 major healthcare companies, I have written, installed and supported Dental, GP & Hospital software related hardware systems in over 1500 installations over 15 years and installed some of the earliest Trophy RVGs and SVG Intra-Oral Cams in the UK. As well as making a living writing & selling my five dental apps, I am a consultant to an Intra-Oral / Endoscope company, another UK dental software house and provide 3rd line support to a phosphor plate scanner distributor in the UK. I have been getting 'lessons' that I should not be using film, digital is quicker & safer, paperless is great. Of course I know this. We all know this. This is why the software supports Digital Sensors, Phosphor Plate, Film, Microfiche & Document Scanners, as well as several flavours of Intra & Extra Oral cameras. But I do get asked, every week, for Film support, so I added it, and I am not apologising for that - its called responding to customer demand. Some of the stuff I write is endeavouring to be innovative, some is high-end experimental and aimed at dental teaching establishments and, of course, I have to include some 'me too' stuff as certain standard features are required. The Imaging Software comes in 4 flavours and at 4 prices. Steve looked at the highest 3D rendering, all singing, all dancing model. The basic one is an integrateable, fast intra-oral camera app that (uniquely) supports the X-Ray film attachments (special anti grain filters) and will shortly, with a month, have the VCR in the mainstream product built in when it comes out of Beta. I don't think that's such a bad mix and its bundled (for free ;s ) with an American Camera. So far it has made me fair living. This has been perceived as 'weird', 'same y' by some in here- but by others extremely positively - ask Joel about my 'Wight Lightening' tooth bleaching simulator. I still think that the built in Digital VCR is a useful feature. So there :) The odd part is that my stuff is seen as a very expensive add-on when nobody has ever asked the price. Please don't reply I wont. >> Sure but when the software you are using was written 8-10 years ago, the >> dentists are not complaining because this old stuff is the 'standard' and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Just a thought > SP > I have been getting 'lessons' that I should not be using film, digital is > quicker & safer, paperless is great. Of course I know this. We all know [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > added it, and I am not apologising for that - its called responding to > customer demand. Not entirely true. I asked about the new DentSply dedicated film scanner, and would have loved to be part of the group to evaluate John's stuff. Pls see my post: John: Please reconsider. You all have seen serious posters come and go, but I think it is terrible that John feels frustrated enought to quit the SMD. Cheers (NOT) SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet > Hmmmmm It seems I have come across as some hick hobby coder. ?!?!?! Nothing could be further from the truth. As someone who had his own share of coding to do in a Masters' thesis, I have nothing but the utmost respect for your ability to be successful in the shadow of the 'Big Boys'. > Before I depart (I'm all Drew'd out) Now, THAT is a genuine shame. > I thought I would have my 5 cents. > I have visited 17+ surgeries in 4 countries in the last 6 months alone and > talk daily on the phone to North American & European Distributors & Dealers I hope you reconsider. I, for one always read anything you wrote, and obviously, I've archived the technical stuff. This is a real shame, in my own opinion. SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet > Please don't reply Okay So WTF was that all about? > Sorry John, but I would expect it free with the hardware. > .. > Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. > Troy, Michigan, USA OK sounds like I need to work an angle on this... My X-Ray suite works VERY well using a transparency scanner - far better than using a flat-bed with an adaptor. So which sounds better (you always have to pay for both anyway - even if the price is hidden)? X-Ray Scanner with free advanced X-Ray Software? Advanced X-Ray Software with free scanner? > > Sorry John, but I would expect it free with the hardware. > > .. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Advanced X-Ray Software with free scanner? FWIW, on the Mac, it is almost always the 3rd party software that works best in any applied field, whether it be music, graphics or what not. QuickTime is an exception, IMO, but there it is. I'm talking general stuff here, not med/dent applications, but I think the pricipal is the same: find a need and fill it. Cheeahs SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >find a need and fill it. >Cheeahs >SP What need does a Crapintosh fufill ? Doorstop ? -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE > >find a need and fill it. > >Cheeahs [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Doorstop ? Well, it DOES permit me to argue with YOU-all, now, doesn't it? I am immune to your viruses, and generally am marching to a different drummer (go ahead.... I'm waiting...;-) ) tee-hee-hee Cheeahs SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet 52 copies of the top model 'Weird & Samey Stuff' sold to another USA Dental School <Just gloating ;) > >> > Sorry John, but I would expect it free with the hardware. >> > .. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Cheeahs > SP > 52 copies of the top model 'Weird & Samey Stuff' sold to another USA Dental > School > > <Just gloating ;) > Congratulations. Let's hope they give you some serious input-feedback. SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet Firstly thanks to the regulars and others who emailed me support over the last month, I appreciate it. Another USA distributor / telesales house signed, seems progress is being made. Its here if anyone wants to take a peek http://www.vision-tools-usa.com/ >> 52 copies of the top model 'Weird & Samey Stuff' sold to another USA >> Dental [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Congratulations. Let's hope they give you some serious input-feedback. > SP >> Sorry John, but I would expect it free with the hardware. >> .. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Advanced X-Ray Software with free scanner? Make it a package deal and call it a day. Advanced Radiographic Software and Scanner. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE But the flat-bed scanner with adaptor is only for the 20-30 films we get each year form other offices. Everything else is digital from day one. BTW, my flat bed scanner (with adaptor) came with TWAIN software that allows me to digitize a film image in a few seconds. >> Sorry John, but I would expect it free with the hardware. >> .. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Advanced X-Ray Software with free scanner? .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. Good ! Sorry - I had not realized that :) Dedicated film scanners do work very much better. I don't sell them, but have one from Microtek that cost me $95 - superb results in 4 - 6 seconds. Its a 35mm transparency scanner - about half the size of a paperback book. USB2. Up to 2400 dpi (I use 600) Pin sharp. For those that are film users, I am even more impressed with the new breed of X-Ray adaptors that ship with new intraoral cameras. No extra bulky equipment. Pop the hood on place over X-Ray on lightbox Perfect results in 60 milliseconds (using my special anti-flicker software magic) > But the flat-bed scanner with adaptor is only for the 20-30 films we > get each year form other offices. Everything else is digital from day [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor > handwriting. Using film in today's world is silly. It is much cheaper to use digital and you can see so much more. >Good ! > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >> Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor >> handwriting. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. > Using film in today's world is silly. It is much cheaper to use > digital and you can see so much more. I agree. But it was a tip for tens of thousands of impoverished film users who simply can't afford luxury Yugos er I mean digital :s By the way, busses are cheaper to use and you can see so much more. :D John, My digital radiograph system (not counting the PC's in each room) cost me $16K. In 1998, without a hygienist, I was spending $4K for film. Since January of 1999, the digital system has NOT required any service at all. I bought $500 worth of new phosphor plates once during that time. Care to venture how much the digital system cost me to run so far??? Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... >> Using film in today's world is silly. It is much cheaper to use >> digital and you can see so much more. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > :D >John, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >bought $500 worth of new phosphor plates once during that time. Care to >venture how much the digital system cost me to run so far??? Biggest savings is TIME! That and going paperless ........ Huge savings in time. But the average dentist is a lousy businessman. $4K a year to use film in 1998. $16K to buy the system. In four years (assuming you never got busier and the cost of film, chemistry, staff, etc, never went up), you are even up either way. The fifth year, you saved at least $4K (more likely $6K with inflation). Of cause, I am busier now than in 1998 so we probably create twice the number of radiographs per year now compared to 1998. The annual savings is much more. The average dental office with one full time RDH will pay back to cost of the system in two years (today's prices). Enough money to send a kid to college is saved every year after that. Being totally paperless,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, that saves enough labor to actually eliminate one full time staff person. Pay back period is 1-2 years, depending on how cheap you are (what you pay your staff). Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>John, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > That and going paperless ........ >Huge savings in time. But the average dentist is a lousy businessman. $4K >a year to use film in 1998. $16K to buy the system. In four years >(assuming you never got busier and the cost of film, chemistry, staff, etc, >never went up), you are even up either way. Plus the convenience and low radiation makes utilization perhaps higher ... to the patient's benefit. Joel > The fifth year, you saved at >least $4K (more likely $6K with inflation). Of cause, I am busier now than [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >eliminate one full time staff person. Pay back period is 1-2 years, >depending on how cheap you are (what you pay your staff). >>Huge savings in time. But the average dentist is a lousy businessman. >>$4K [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Joel We certainly feel much less guilty when an image needs to be re-done at a different angle now that we are only using 10% of the previous radiation levels. >> The fifth year, you saved at >>least $4K (more likely $6K with inflation). Of cause, I am busier now [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>eliminate one full time staff person. Pay back period is 1-2 years, >>depending on how cheap you are (what you pay your staff). >Care to >>venture how much the digital system cost me to run so far??? > >Biggest savings is TIME! > >That and going paperless ........ Except for the restroom ? -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Best part of nothing? Hey! I'm sold :) I find most enquiring dentists have film - I seem to be one of the few guys supporting film to any deep level. That's all :) > John, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> :D >John, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >bought $500 worth of new phosphor plates once during that time. Care to >venture how much the digital system cost me to run so far??? $16,500 ? over 5 years that is $3,300/yr. You didn't mention developer. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com As an interesting experiment, add up how much you spend on film, chemistry, developer repairs, labor to fill processor, labor to clean processor, chemical disposal fees (if any), mounts, special pencils to write on mounts or film, cuplicating film, time spent mounting film, time spent dupicating film, etc. Add up everything which relates to the use of film. Figure it for two weeks then multiply by 26. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>John, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > You didn't mention developer. I agree But a lot of my customer have film and aren't changing in the near future. Period. > As an interesting experiment, add up how much you spend on film, > chemistry, developer repairs, labor to fill processor, labor to clean [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> >> You didn't mention developer. You need to educate them. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... >I agree > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >>> >>> You didn't mention developer. > For those that are film users, I am even more impressed with the new breed > of X-Ray adaptors that ship with new intraoral cameras. > > No extra bulky equipment. Pop the hood on place over X-Ray on lightbox > Perfect results in 60 milliseconds (using my special anti-flicker software > magic) Do you know the Dentsply model? I saw it advertised in Dentistry Today (a dental advertising journal). SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet How long does it take to scan in 20 film images.??? Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > Good ! > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >> Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor >> handwriting. With my SpectraVU camera I could do 20 in 25 seconds total. > How long does it take to scan in 20 film images.??? > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >>> Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor >>> handwriting. Does that include loading and un-loading? If so, that is rather good. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > With my SpectraVU camera I could do 20 in 25 seconds total. > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >>>> Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor >>>> handwriting. |
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