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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / October 2004$750 for NTI in NYC = too much?
I'm a college student in N.Y.C. with no dental insurance and horrible health insurance that will not be of any use in this scenario. I have tried lots of thing to reduce my nighttime Bruxism and resulting TMJ problems (i.e. meditation, exercise, lying on my back while sleeping) and while I have been somewhat succesful I am still faced with jaw pain on a daily basis. I have researched the NTI device and have decided to give it a shot. I have heard good things about Dr. Manksy in Manhattan but when I called I discovered that the NTI is $750. It should be noted that this includes the initial visit and all subsequent visits for any alterations needed. Also, if after 90 days "you are not completely satisfied" $550 of the $750 will be refunded. is this a bad deal? i thought that these were only supposed to run for $450 or so, but is that including Dr. Visits? Any help is appreciated, That is certainly within the range of expected fees. Some offices charge more some charge less. I have always heard the Manhattan commands higher fees due to higher overhead costs. I charge $450 with the first two years of service included in the fee. By the time you fly to Detroit, take a cab to Troy, and return, you end up saving money right there in NYC. I sleep with one in my mouth every night.  Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > I'm a college student in N.Y.C. with no dental insurance and horrible > health insurance that will not be of any use in this scenario. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Any help is appreciated, > That is certainly within the range of expected fees. Some offices charge > more some charge less. I have always heard the Manhattan commands higher [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I sleep with one in my mouth every night. ... most of my patients sleep with TWO: the universal retainer on the bottom as well. Apart from the first two or three I fitted, I found virtually ALL of my patients can touch the lower canine to the upper central or lower canine to the DE... I thought this was supposed to be rare. Is this something peculiar to Quebecois, or what? I should add that most who have decided to buy it are elderly and have had repeated filling breaks; and I've flat out told them that I'm not going to replace a filling I've done in the last two years for free more than once... After that, I consider that the problem is not faulty workmanship, but parafunction. So, what do Y'all think about my finding so many patients that need the universal on the lower? Inquiring minds want to know... Thanks esSPee SignatureNot a real Addy, yet "StovePipe" <StovesNewAddy@sympatico.DOTnet> wrote .............. > ... most of my patients sleep with TWO: \ Dammit, this is a PG newsgroup. carabelli If they have to really strain hard to get the cuspid to touch the DE, I skip the lower universal until they try the NTI for a couple of weeks. Most often, they do not force their jaw that hard. Consider making an NTI upside down on the lower from time to time. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >> That is certainly within the range of expected fees. Some offices charge [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Thanks > esSPee > If they have to really strain hard to get the cuspid to touch the DE, I skip > the lower universal until they try the NTI for a couple of weeks. Most > often, they do not force their jaw that hard. Consider making an NTI upside > down on the lower from time to time. So: how will you know (when you re-see them in two weeks) if they ARE or are NOT straining to get a canine to anterior contact? Will this translate into tooth movement (as I have seen with the case I sent to Roy) or as joint pain or what? IOW how to know if there is pathologic contacts in these cases? WRT: flipping the NTI in these cases: How will that help? I would thing that if they can bring the lower canine to the upper central, they can bring a DE to an upper Canine as well... Thanks SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet SP, It came in the other day, have not had time to even open it. SignatureRoy DotSeaEh is .ca |(as I have seen with the case I sent to Roy) > SP, > It came in the other day, have not had time to even open it. Cool... No hurry SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >> If they have to really strain hard to get the cuspid to touch the DE, I skip >> the lower universal until they try the NTI for a couple of weeks. Most [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >So: how will you know (when you re-see them in two weeks) if they ARE or >are NOT straining to get a canine to anterior contact? By listening to the patient and their continuing pain Will this >translate into tooth movement (as I have seen with the case I sent to >Roy) or as joint pain or what? Should not allow any tooth movement if done properly. IOW how to know if there is pathologic >contacts in these cases? symptoms >WRT: flipping the NTI in these cases: How will that help? the upper arch is wider than the lower, so you can have here movement without the cupids hitting the DE I would thing >that if they can bring the lower canine to the upper central, they can >bring a DE to an upper Canine as well... >Thanks >SP > >> If they have to really strain hard to get the cuspid to touch the DE, I > >> skip the lower universal until they try the NTI for a couple of weeks. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > the upper arch is wider than the lower, so you can have here movement > without the cupids hitting the DE OK, thanks SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet > That is certainly within the range of expected fees. Some offices charge > more some charge less. I have always heard the Manhattan commands higher [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I sleep with one in my mouth every night. Thanks for the reply. You said that you use one every night...may i ask how much or how little it has helped you? How bad was your bruxism/tmjd before you began use compared to now? >> That is certainly within the range of expected fees. Some offices charge >> more some charge less. I have always heard the Manhattan commands higher [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >little it has helped you? >How bad was your bruxism/tmjd before you began use compared to now? It has helped me tremendously! Prior to NTI use, I clenched with great force. Now I lightly clench during the day (stopped using the day-time NTI). Muscle pain is gone. Headaches are gone. >>> That is certainly within the range of expected fees. Some offices charge >>> more some charge less. I have always heard the Manhattan commands higher [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >great force. Now I lightly clench during the day (stopped using the >day-time NTI). Muscle pain is gone. Headaches are gone. This is from the Doctor that made my NTI but refused to make one for himself. Wouldn't even let me try to make one for him. He still needs endo on one of the lower first molars. Forget which side of the mandible. "It's either #19 [my guess] or #30." Bet that a radiograph would reveal pulp stones and a constricted pulp chamber in the tooth that is bothering Dr. SM. I will never understand why the average GP is so afraid of endo, and why they avoid it at all costs. Especially when pulpal death is imminent, predictable, and un-avoidable. BTW extracted a CEREC tooth last month that needed endo before it was treated/bonded or whatever ya'll wanna call it. The PARL was 1.5 x 1.5 mm . # 13. The porcelain fractured like an egg shell. The patient was happy to get rid of that tooth and .... -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE > I will never understand why the average GP is so afraid of endo, > and why they avoid it at all costs. Especially when pulpal death is > imminent, predictable, and un-avoidable. I think there are two reasons: 1) The (Mis)conception that in order to be strong, a tooth must be vital. 2) Access into all four canals is hard to achieve in a reasonable time frame. Thoughts on these: re: 1) If the tooth was attacked by caries bacteria, its health is compromised by definition, especially after years of forces on it. re: 2) All dentists should take their extracted teeth and practice accessing the pulp chambers on them. Even then, Access is difficult to achieve. There should be Two separate disciplines when it comes to teaching Endo in school: Access and how to achieve it and canal instrumentation. Thursday nite, I attended a presentation given by Sybron Endo (Kerr) at the local Henry Shein. Beautiful motor and handpiece, Apex locator, obturation system with warm gp with a Buchannan System B type plugger and a handpiece for expressing warm GP for the backpack. The files, of course, were the New and IMPROVED K-3's... Whole thing about 8000$ CDN dollarettes. So, why didn't I buy any of the stuff? Simple: I still have some Profile GT files, a Root ZX apex locator, an Aseptico electric handpiece, a Touch 'N Heat heat carrier, and a Salton coffee warmer for heating the GP pieces for back packing. I politely kept my mouth shut while the rep did his whole presentation, then politely put up my hand and politely reminded him that all that wasn't what Endo is.... He politely asked me what I thought Endo was... Endo is finding the godddaaammmm canals in a quick and predictable way, and as such, was there any technological advances to aid the GP in this endeavor? No, not since the advent of the ultrasonic debriding apparatus for finding those things Boom SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >> I will never understand why the average GP is so afraid of endo, >> and why they avoid it at all costs. Especially when pulpal death is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >1) The (Mis)conception that in order to be strong, a tooth must be >vital. Right a misconception. Non vital teeth restored correctly are very strong. >2) Access into all four canals is hard to achieve in a reasonable time >frame. Well maybe for some. >Thoughts on these: >re: 1) If the tooth was attacked by caries bacteria, its health is >compromised by definition, especially after years of forces on it. Yeah but if restorable, still pretty strong. >re: 2) All dentists should take their extracted teeth and practice >accessing the pulp chambers on them. Even then, Access is difficult to >achieve. There should be Two separate disciplines when it comes to >teaching Endo in school: Access and how to achieve it and canal >instrumentation. This is an excellent idea. >Thursday nite, I attended a presentation given by Sybron Endo (Kerr) at >the local Henry Shein. Beautiful motor and handpiece, Apex locator, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Touch 'N Heat heat carrier, and a Salton coffee warmer for heating the >GP pieces for back packing. Then you have almost everything you need. Dentsply/Tulsa Dental rules ! >I politely kept my mouth shut while the rep did his whole presentation, >then politely put up my hand and politely reminded him that all that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >endeavor? No, not since the advent of the ultrasonic debriding apparatus >for finding those things Dude, this is so easy. It's all about tactile feel. I can feel when I drop into the pulp chamber. Are you using a rubber dam ? >Boom >SP -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE sssssnnnnnniiiiiiiiP..... > >1) The (Mis)conception that in order to be strong, a tooth must be > >vital. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Well maybe for some. Some have talent, others do *paint by numbers dentistry*. No use crying about it, I'm not the Da Vinci of Endo or any other field of Dentistry. I *am* developing my *nose* a bit more, though. > >Thoughts on these: > >re: 1) If the tooth was attacked by caries bacteria, its health is > >compromised by definition, especially after years of forces on it. > > Yeah but if restorable, still pretty strong. Absolutely. Otherwise, what would be the use? > >re: 2) All dentists should take their extracted teeth and practice > >accessing the pulp chambers on them. Even then, Access is difficult to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > This is an excellent idea. Of course it is... it's YOURS... (the first part is, at least) > >Thursday nite, I attended a presentation given by Sybron Endo (Kerr) at > >the local Henry Shein. Beautiful motor and handpiece, Apex locator, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Then you have almost everything you need. > Dentsply/Tulsa Dental rules ! 'Cept nobody carries them here. So there is no *Kaannaadiann pricing*. A 10$US file for you is also a 10$US file for us. Brassler and Kerr do have a Kandian price, I believe. > >I politely kept my mouth shut while the rep did his whole presentation, > >then politely put up my hand and politely reminded him that all that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Dude, this is so easy. It's all about tactile feel. I can feel when I > drop into the pulp chamber. Are you using a rubber dam ? Mon Dieu!!! What a question!! Actually, if there is any question about the long axis of the tooth, I'll start w/o the damn Dam, using the adjacent teeth as quides. Then it's clamp it and Dam it. So, by the time I'm archeologizing on a squashed down calcified pulp chamber, the damn Dam is on, yes. I'll get a good BiteWing before anything, even in the anterior. Some of these oldsters have canals that are not centered in the crown or root. Thanks SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >> >Endo is finding the godddaaammmm canals in a quick and predictable way, >> >and as such, was there any technological advances to aid the GP in this [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the crown or root. > Thanks If you ever have a case where you cannot find the canals and refer it to an endodontist,,,,,, look at what he did differently when you get it back. He will basically blow a huge hole into the tooth. We were taught in DS to make these perfect little access openings which are very cute any tiny, but awful to see the pulp chamber through. On endo teeth (where you are going to restore soon), take out ALL filling on the tooth first. Then, excavate all caries. If you haven't done so by now, cut off the occlusal 1/3 to 1/2 of the tooth. You should be well into the pulp chamber now. Take a long "crown-prep" diamond. Cut the inner pulp chamber walls so they diverge from the canals (or where you think the canals are) to the cavo-surface margin with about a 10-20 degree taper. If you have not had to excavate caries from the pulp chamber floor, you should be able to see the "track" of the fissures connecting the canals. 98% of the time, doing the above makes endo on any tooth in the mouth dead easy. Stop trying to do endo through tiny holes with undercut walls. If the canals are still not visible, then you talk to the patient and tell them you think there is a fair chance the tooth will be hopeless, and with their permission, you will try further. Tell them you will cut further into the tooth looking for the canals. You will either find the canals, or perforate the side of the root. Tell them you will repair any small perforations with MTA, but large ones will mean the tooth has to be removed. Get a radiograph to align your existing preparation with the radiographic canals (if visible) and the root forms. Line up over the center of the roots and "proudly go where no man has gone before". If you perforate the tooth at this step, so would the endo-guy. At that stage, you were being heroic anyway. Most times, your surgical length round bur goes about 2mm deeper each time and eventually, you feel a tiny "blip" where the canal still has some residual threads. Take a #6 file or a "micro-opener" and work the canal slowly and patiently, You will get to the bottom of the canal in a minute or two. Open it a size or two and grab the #20 GT's or your Gates Gliddens. It is al about access and knowing which way the roots go. In the CEREC world, I often will leave the rubber dam off until I find all the canals and make sure I can get a file into them. I then finalize the prep, powder, scan, rinse and apply the rubber dam. We irrigate the canals, and the patient sits up with rubber dam on face while I design the crown. Once milling starts, we lay the patient back and Start with the GT's. I am not as fast as George is, but I will usually be ready to obdurate the last canal (of a molar tooth) when the PC beeps to tell me the milling process is done. ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... >In the CEREC world, I often will leave the rubber dam off until I find all >the canals and make sure I can get a file into them. I then finalize the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- >Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. That's about 20 min for endo ? Not too shabby. Remember it is the final result not the speed. I just have more experience and a very good teacher. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>In the CEREC world, I often will leave the rubber dam off until I find all >>the canals and make sure I can get a file into them. I then finalize the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >I just have more experience and a very good teacher. Remember, that this time does not include anesthesia, access, extirpation, and I Still have one canal to obturate at that time. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. >>That's about 20 min for endo ? >>Not too shabby. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. >Troy, Michigan, USA I don't bother with extirpation. Anesthesia 5-7 min. RD and access is , 1 min. I still obturate multi-radicular teeth one canal at a time. GP + grossman's. I'm not really fast, just efficient. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>That's about 20 min for endo ? >>>Not too shabby. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >I'm not really fast, just efficient. For me, extirpation is the time needed to find all the canals and get a file to the apex, and open to a # 25. .. Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA Writing on a tablet PC,so forgive me if the PC misreads my poor handwriting. >For me, extirpation is the time needed to find all the canals and get >a file to the apex, and open to a # 25. >.. >Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. I start with a #15 and work down to 10, 8, 6 if needed to reach the apex. Bring the canal up to a 15 if needed. Then gates 2, 3, 4, and sometimes 5, 6. On to the GT's 40 series for big canals 30 series for most 20 series for small copious irrigation through the process. Once to the apex with the GT's. Where ever that may land. Irrigate, dry, obturate. Close with Fugi 9 Films one with dam on, other dam off Remove dam, trim B/U Done -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE I have always used Gates Glidden burs prior to filing as well. Now with the GT's I find myself using them less and less. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>For me, extirpation is the time needed to find all the canals and get [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Take out the G'RBAGE Gee, guess I'm not average. I put up with a little cold sensitivity for a while, but when coffee started causing some negative sensations, I was off to the endodontist. :-) Fawks > I will never understand why the average GP is so afraid of endo, > and why they avoid it at all costs. Especially when pulpal death is > imminent, predictable, and un-avoidable. > -- > W_B Still remember when you made one for me and swore that you didn't need one [NTI] for yourself. My how times have changed ! >>> That is certainly within the range of expected fees. Some offices charge >>> more some charge less. I have always heard the Manhattan commands higher [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >great force. Now I lightly clench during the day (stopped using the >day-time NTI). Muscle pain is gone. Headaches are gone. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE It was the strain of trying get a two way conversation with . .... >Still remember when you made one for me and >swore that you didn't need one [NTI] for yourself. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>great force. Now I lightly clench during the day (stopped using the >>day-time NTI). Muscle pain is gone. Headaches are gone. Unlike Dr. M, I might miss 3-5 nights a YEAR (over the past 4)<G>. I charge a lot less, but my use of the device is not to take advantage of new patients, but to increase the happiness and comfort of thousands of existing patients. I can make one in less time than a prophy and charge more than twice as much. The patient is well served and I get another chance to be a real hero. Why charge high fees for an easy treatment with almost no risks? That said, what is it worth to sleep well, preserve your teeth, wake with no headaches, reduce or eliminate jaw pain, reduce medication needs, and just feel better? I'd pay a grand if I had those problems (and many patients spend many thousands of dollars on physicians fees, tests, and medications with poor results over time). I've been using the NTI device for over 4 years with very good results. JMO, Fawks > I sleep with one in my mouth every night. >I'm a college student in N.Y.C. with no dental insurance and horrible >health insurance that will not be of any use in this scenario. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Any help is appreciated, Paging Dr. S Bornfeld... This patient is in need of your help. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>I'm a college student in N.Y.C. with no dental insurance and horrible >>health insurance that will not be of any use in this scenario. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Thanks, WB. Full disclosure: I have never placed an NTI. If this is Dr. Marvin Mansky on W96th, he is a rather well-known dentist, and well-known in Manhattan you will pay for. The actual expense in materials to make an NTI is minimal. OTOH, if they are willing to go on record with a money-back guarantee, this casts things in a different light. NTI to me looks like a low-risk appliance that seems to work quite well, judging by the experience of the good doctors on this newsgroup. It is simple to make and fairly low cost. I am sure you can get one made for less money. I have no direct experience with Dr. Mansky. The most prominent orofacial pain dentists in Manhattan are Harold and Michael Gelb. You will doubtless pay big bucks to see them, but it makes sense given your financial situation to try something like the NTI first. Feel free to call or e-mail me if you wish to discuss this further. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 Thanks for taking the time to reply. I sent a response to your email address. > Thanks for taking the time to reply. I sent a response to your email address. I didn't get it. Please remove the letters "mung" in our addy to reply. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 Marty Jablow is in Jersey. He might not be cheaper than Mansky (whose name I am also familiar with), but he also has extensive experience with NTI's. Come on Bornfelds, get with the program. Don't you like things that are as easy as 'shootin fish in a barrel'? Maybe you think Mancuso and the rest of us are just idiots? <G> Fawks > Full disclosure: I have never placed an NTI. > If this is Dr. Marvin Mansky on W96th, he is a rather well-known [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Steve Jablow, That name is familiar.- from the listserve dental group? Real nice guy IIRC SignatureRoy DotSeaEh is .ca | Marty Jablow is in Jersey. He might not be cheaper than Mansky (whose | name I am also familiar with), but he also has extensive experience [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] | > | > Steve > Jablow, That name is familiar.- from the listserve dental group? Real nice > guy IIRC What is this dental bulletin via listserv that you guys are talking about? Nationally Enquiring minds... SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet IDF SignatureRoy DotSeaEh is .ca | > Jablow, That name is familiar.- from the listserve dental group? Real nice | > guy IIRC [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | Nationally Enquiring minds... | SP >Marty Jablow is in Jersey. He might not be cheaper than Mansky (whose >name I am also familiar with), but he also has extensive experience [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >the >rest of us are just idiots? Bornfeld twins hate the smell of dead fish! JOEL ><G> >Fawks [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >> Steve >>Marty Jablow is in Jersey. He might not be cheaper than Mansky (whose >>name I am also familiar with), but he also has extensive experience [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Bornfeld twins hate the smell of dead fish! Especially in the morning. Steve > JOEL > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>> >>>Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>>Marty Jablow is in Jersey. He might not be cheaper than Mansky (whose >>>name I am also familiar with), but he also has extensive experience [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Especially in the morning. Unless its pickled herring ...... >Steve >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >>>> >>>>Steve >>>>Marty Jablow is in Jersey. He might not be cheaper than Mansky (whose >>>>name I am also familiar with), but he also has extensive experience [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Unless its pickled herring ...... Mit schmaltz, sum borscht, a shtickele sour cveem. Steve >>Steve >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >>>>> >>>>>Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>>>Bornfeld twins hate the smell of dead fish! >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Steve You forgot the onions! Joel >>>Steve >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >>>>>> >>>>>>Steve > >> Especially in the morning. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Steve .... Is that Geflite Fish? SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >> >> Especially in the morning. >> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >.... Is that Geflite Fish? >SP Gefilte means "filled" as in stuffed. That would be pike or similar whitefish that is processed, and then made into fillets and lightly poached and served cold. Its not bad. Its eaten with horseradish, preferably freshly ground. The "filled" part means they used to restuff the fish back into its skin and then stick the bones through for flavor. Pickled herring is of course "raw" but pickled. Joel >>> >> Especially in the morning. >>> > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Joel It doesn't look too good in the jar but... have been into trying kosher foods lately, will give it a try and report back. PS Can't stand any kind of rye bread. of course quit eating bread, in any form, about 3 mos ago. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>>>> Especially in the morning. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > -- > W_B Gefilte fish in a jar is a poor substitute for freshly made--something I haven't had in many years. What's the deal with all that jelly, anyhow? Steve > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Take out the G'RBAGE >> W_B > > Gefilte fish in a jar is a poor substitute for freshly made--something >I haven't had in many years. What's the deal with all that jelly, anyhow? > >Steve The old joke was that they would keep the carp alive in the bathtub for three or four days, so the fish would be very fresh. Of course that meant no baths .... This was a Lower East side type of story ...... Now in Brooklyn, well you go to Junior's right? Joel The jelly is collagen of course .......... you obtain the same "gel" from beef too. After the leftovers come out of the fridge, the "gel" is usually under the meat/fish. Some people mistake this for fat, which it is not. ITS periodontal membrane ,,, kinda. >>>W_B >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Now in Brooklyn, well you go to Junior's right? Actually, haven't been there in quite some time...don't know if there's gefilte fish on the menu. One goes there for the cheesecake. Steve > Joel > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > ITS periodontal membrane ,,, kinda. > Actually, haven't been there in quite some time...don't know if there's >gefilte fish on the menu. One goes there for the cheesecake. > >Steve YUP, there was a guy on TV last evening ~ PBS ~ some Italian chef, and he talked about Junior's cheesecake and then he made his own! Interesting ........ I often wondered how they make it! PS- He loves Brooklyn! Joel >>I haven't had in many years. What's the deal with all that jelly, anyhow? >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >ITS periodontal membrane ,,, kinda. Have never eaten a captured fish that was held in a bathtub. Have let go more fish than most of you SMD regs have ever caught. If we ain't gonna eat it, turn it loose. Gotta be at least 1/2 " longer than minimum keeper. We let go the Max and Over-Max mofo's but take a picture. We weigh them too; if in tournament., </fishin' philosophy> Fresh, Salt, or Brackish. No matter. The tackle and the bait differ, fishin' is still fishin'. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE ></fishin' philosophy> > >Fresh, Salt, or Brackish. No matter. >The tackle and the bait differ, fishin' is still fishin'. OLD MOTTO ~ A bad day fishing is still better than a good day at work. >></fishin' philosophy> >> >>Fresh, Salt, or Brackish. No matter. >>The tackle and the bait differ, fishin' is still fishin'. > >OLD MOTTO ~ A bad day fishing is still better than a good day at work. Yep, and it still holds true today. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >></fishin' philosophy> >> >>Fresh, Salt, or Brackish. No matter. >>The tackle and the bait differ, fishin' is still fishin'. > >OLD MOTTO ~ A bad day fishing is still better than a good day at work. "A bad day fishin' beats a good day workin' ! " -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>></fishin' philosophy> >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >"A bad day fishin' beats a good day workin' ! " YUP my mistake ... its better without the "G"s. > Gefilte fish in a jar is a poor substitute for freshly made--something >I haven't had in many years. What's the deal with all that jelly, anyhow? > >Steve Well, tell me what the preparation is; if you would be so kind. Like eating clean fish and have prepared them on the boat many times. Have fished in many areas. Fresh caught beats *bought* any day. Saltwater or Freshwater. The quicker to the table, the better it tastes. The preparation is paramount, preparation is king !!! As an aside, fish served as 'sushi' has been frozen to any where between -32 to -50 C to kill parasites. No-one should never eat fish right out of the water. That is a good way to get parasites. Fish must be prepared in certain ways depending on the source. Never forget this. Shellfish and Oysters are another subject entirely. </fish lessons for morons> -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >> Gefilte fish in a jar is a poor substitute for freshly made--something >>I haven't had in many years. What's the deal with all that jelly, anyhow? >> >>Steve > > Well, tell me what the preparation is; if you would be so kind. I'm sure there are cookbooks out there. Of course, the gefilte fish of my dreams was made by my paternal grandmother, who has been gone almost 20 years. Kashe varniskes is another traditional dish I have myself tried to make. I am getting better, but there's still a quality my mother's had that I just can't get. It's a bit sad--part of a dying culture. I understand little (and speak less) yiddish. Steve > Like eating clean fish and have prepared them on the boat > many times. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Take out the G'RBAGE >> Well, tell me what the preparation is; if you would be so kind. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Steve Thanks, will look into it. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >> Bornfeld twins hate the smell of dead fish! > > Especially in the morning. > >Steve What about Friday evening ? -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE > Marty Jablow is in Jersey. He might not be cheaper than Mansky (whose > name I am also familiar with), but he also has extensive experience [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > <G> > Fawks I agree in a more didactic sort of way: This gentleman sounds like the IDEAL case with which to start in with the NTI-tss concept. He has a vested interest ($$$) and is intelligent enough to realize that there might be adjustments along the way, and that if it's your first one, it'll perhaps take a bit longer than it would after the 10th or 20th. That said, I put in my first one in 30 minutes from start to finish, and I had reserved an hour, just in case I flubbed it and had to grind out the Snap and re-do it. That never happens. The worst is that you'll have to extend the DE anteriorly or have to put in a lower one as well, or that it's not tight enough, and you'll have to do a quick reline. I'd suggest you have the intro cassette sent and look at it. It shows alot of blah blah, but towards the end, we see Dr. Bayd adjusting one in mouth of a real patient. He also shows the indication on this lady for placing one on the mandibular anteriors. Listen, SB the bottom line is this: I'm the type that usually has to re-do things when I try a new technique or material or whatnot, but this thing is a natural: we've all made temps using Snap or Trim, so it's no big deal. If I can do it well the first time, anybody can. I'll re-post the comments that DrSteve and SF made when I asked how they fit it... One more thing: I was always scared that I'd wait too long before I started removing/replacing the NTI and one time that's what happened; it got stuck on. So I got out the ol' reverse-action crown remover and PLUCK! It came off with the first tap, and not a large one at that. I got the acrylic trimming burs for the straight handpiece out and loosened it up a bit. Not trying to put you on the spot here, just trying to get you to realize that you need this technology for your patients. Cheers SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >>Marty Jablow is in Jersey. He might not be cheaper than Mansky (whose >>name I am also familiar with), but he also has extensive experience [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > Cheers > SP Dr. Boyd sent me an introductory kit a couple of years back, and I'm a bit embarassed to say I never read through the materials. But I dug them out and I'm going to have a look. It certainly looks simple enough. Steve > Dr. Boyd sent me an introductory kit a couple of years back, and I'm a >bit embarassed to say I never read through the materials. But I dug >them out and I'm going to have a look. It certainly looks simple enough. > >Steve Hiya SB, If'n yer up, must tell ya that it may seem simple and it is very quick to construct;you must make the first one to believe. Try making one for yourself. If not,make the first one for a bruxing patient for free. This is a service that any thinking dentist should provide. A little practice never hurt anyone. You can do it; if you can do a prophy. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE > Dr. Boyd sent me an introductory kit a couple of years back, and I'm a > bit embarassed to say I never read through the materials. But I dug > them out and I'm going to have a look. It certainly looks simple enough. > > Steve Again: if _I_ can do it easily, then it's pretty idiot-proof.... Besides, if you do one now and again, it doesn't mean that you have to become a preacher of the NTI-tss. SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet I want to be clear that I meant no disrespect with my last post. It's hard to get the proper inflection of light hearted teasing in print. As I've said many times, I know it sounds too easy and too simple to be an effective treatment for symptoms that have perplexed dentists for years and years. But...IT WORKS! After a while, your assistants start picking out the patients that need one before you get into the room. I fully understand why you might be hesitant. You will have 'experts' tell you why NTI's 'can't' work. They will also tell you that the posterior teeth will supra-erupt. They will argue for full mouth rehab, ortho, or expensive, complicated splints. An NTI is a lot cheaper, more effective, and less invasive. I'll shut up <G>. Fawks > Dr. Boyd sent me an introductory kit a couple of years back, and I'm > a bit embarassed to say I never read through the materials. But I dug > them out and I'm going to have a look. It certainly looks simple enough. > > Steve >I fully understand why you might be hesitant. You will have 'experts' >tell you why NTI's 'can't' work. They will also tell you that the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Fawks Please don't be quiet about the NTI. Until Dr. Steve Mancuso made one for me, I was an non-believer. A year and a half down the road, I am now convinced. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Try using a Bard-Parker knife to relieve the inside of the NTI . whittle at the imprint of the CEJ with the blade as well as trimming the excess plastic that was inter-proximal. >> Marty Jablow is in Jersey. He might not be cheaper than Mansky (whose >> name I am also familiar with), but he also has extensive experience [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >Cheers >SP > Try using a Bard-Parker knife to relieve the inside of the NTI . > whittle at the imprint of the CEJ with the blade as well as trimming > the excess plastic that was inter-proximal. By Pard_Parker knife, do you mean like a Buffalo knife? Or is this more like a laboratory type of scalpel? Thanks SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet I've noticed the Americans use Bard-Parker for scalpel, like many individuals use Kleenex for facial tissue. I recall Austenal sent up a technician from the Eastern seaboard years ago to solve a technical problem in a brand new casting department I had just started supervising. Great guy, solved the problem that had plagued us for weeks in the 1st 15 minutes. Head office told him to stick around for a couple of days just to make sure we had everything under control. He said he would sit down beside each and every person in the department to show them as many tips as possible. The first thing he asked for was a 'Baah-rd Paah-rkahh'. I replied I don't think we have one of those, as a matter of fact I've never heard of one. He said, you must have one, never been in a lab that didn't have one - let me see your hand tools. I opened my bench drawer and said there they are ... He immediately grabbed my scalpel, held it up and said; This my friend is a 'Baah-rd Paah-rkahh'... I asked him where that name came from. He replied, It says so right here on the handle and promptly pointed to the name stamped in the metal, holding it up for me to see. I looked, and replied: I know you Americans pronounce things differently from us, but I really don't understand how Swan Morton can be pronounced 'Baah-rd Paah-rkahh'. The laughter that followed was part of what was to become a great friendship. To this day, I cannot help but think of him and this story when I hear ... Bard Parker. SignatureRoy DotSeaEh is .ca | > Try using a Bard-Parker knife to relieve the inside of the NTI . | > whittle at the imprint of the CEJ with the blade as well as trimming [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | Thanks | SP > The laughter that followed was part of what was to become a great > friendship. To this day, I cannot help but think of him and this story when > I hear ... Bard Parker. So, now I know... It's a scalpel... Thanks Roy SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >> Try using a Bard-Parker knife to relieve the inside of the NTI . >> whittle at the imprint of the CEJ with the blade as well as trimming [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Thanks >SP Red handled scapel with a #11 blade. Will get you the handle # Monday. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>> Try using a Bard-Parker knife to relieve the inside of the NTI . >>> whittle at the imprint of the CEJ with the blade as well as trimming [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>Thanks >>SP No the Buffalo knife is good when you are out west and out of food, and there are ...... you got it ... buffalos around. >Red handled scapel with a #11 blade. >Will get you the handle # Monday. Mine says # 6 SignatureRoy DotSeaEh is .ca | >> Try using a Bard-Parker knife to relieve the inside of the NTI . | >> whittle at the imprint of the CEJ with the blade as well as trimming [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] | wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com | Take out the G'RBAGE > Red handled scapel with a #11 blade. > Will get you the handle # Monday. > > -- > W_B Think I know now... It takes bigger blades than a surgical scalpel... like Exacto blades Thanks to both W_B and Roy. SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet Thick red handle for a scalpel blade. I use a non-sterile #12 blade. >> Try using a Bard-Parker knife to relieve the inside of the NTI . >> whittle at the imprint of the CEJ with the blade as well as trimming [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Thanks >SP > Thick red handle for a scalpel blade. I use a non-sterile #12 blade. Good... Thanks SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet That's my preferred method for adjusting the interior of an NTI also. You might check what you're paying for blades. I get sterile Miltex by the 100's cheaper than most non-sterile blades. :-) Fawks > Thick red handle for a scalpel blade. I use a non-sterile #12 blade. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>Thanks >>SP The #6 handle accepts a #25A blade quite nicely. First choice for me. Often use a #5 handle with a #15 blade, works quite well. >That's my preferred method for adjusting the interior of an NTI also. >You might check what you're paying for blades. I get sterile Miltex by [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >>>Thanks >>>SP -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com I just checked and the blades I am using for this are a #25. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > > The #6 handle accepts a #25A blade quite nicely. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > I just checked and the blades I am using for this are a #25. Good.... Now I have a few good ideas wrt blades Thanks to all SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet > The #6 handle accepts a #25A blade quite nicely. > First choice for me. > > Often use a #5 handle with a #15 blade, works quite well. Another good idea Thanks SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet > That's my preferred method for adjusting the interior of an NTI also. > You might check what you're paying for blades. I get sterile Miltex by > the 100's cheaper than most non-sterile blades. > > :-) > Fawks Good idea... ;-) SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet >I'm a college student in N.Y.C. with no dental insurance and horrible >health insurance that will not be of any use in this scenario. YUP. >I have tried lots of thing to reduce my nighttime Bruxism and >resulting TMJ problems (i.e. meditation, exercise, lying on my back >while sleeping) and while I have been somewhat succesful I am still >faced with jaw pain on a daily basis. STRESS? >I have researched the NTI device and have decided to give it a shot. K. >I have heard good things about Dr. Manksy in Manhattan but when I >called I discovered that the NTI is $750. It should be noted that >this includes the initial visit and all subsequent visits for any >alterations needed. Also, if after 90 days "you are not completely >satisfied" $550 of the $750 will be refunded. Ugh. >is this a bad deal? Yup. >i thought that these were only supposed to run for $450 or so, but is >that including Dr. Visits? > >Any help is appreciated, > >I have tried lots of thing to reduce my nighttime Bruxism and > >resulting TMJ problems (i.e. meditation, exercise, lying on my back > >while sleeping) and while I have been somewhat succesful I am still > >faced with jaw pain on a daily basis. > > STRESS? Well certainly...but the problem is that even when stress is removed I still have these problems. I have worked hard to make sure during the day that I dont let my teeth touch together (except when eating of course). I went from having them touch maybe 30 times a day to about 3 now. Of course I dont really have much of an idea of what I am doing at night. My only clue is that I have woken up in mid yawn, and instead of yawning like a normal person (ie. lowering the jaw) I seem to clamp mine shut. Its quite peculiar. I have also had dreams where I am clenching my jaw, or rubbing my canines together....and sure enough the next day my jaw is killing me. > >is this a bad deal? > > Yup. Care to elaborate ? > > >is this a bad deal? > > > > Yup. > > Care to elaborate ? You can probably get an NTI for less. Talk to S. Bornfeld again. SP SignatureNot a real Addy, yet G-e-t a-n NTI !!! >> >I have tried lots of thing to reduce my nighttime Bruxism and >> >resulting TMJ problems (i.e. meditation, exercise, lying on my back [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Care to elaborate ? |
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