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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / August 2004

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Abstracts

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W_B - 26 Aug 2004 01:27 GMT
The manufacturer cites a number of abstracts in support of the
effectiveness of the Cavitat. However, abstracts do not undergo the
detailed peer review that is required for publication of an article in
a quality peer-reviewed medical journal. Furthermore, the abstracts
provide insufficient description of study methodology to allow one to
draw conclusions about the validity of the results. For example, the
abstracts fail to provide sufficient detail about how subjects for
study were selected, inadequate description of the gold standard,
whether the investigators were blinded to results of competing
studies, and whether the results of the ultrasonography improved
outcomes.

From:  http://www.aetna.com/cpb/data/CPBA0642.html

--
W_B

wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Take out the G'RBAGE
carabelli - 26 Aug 2004 03:18 GMT
> The manufacturer cites a number of abstracts in support of the
> effectiveness of the Cavitat. However, abstracts do not undergo the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> --
> W_B

Oh yeah big boy, why does MEDLINE have abstracts.  I don't need a whole
article - shows your lack of morals and low character.  Typical lying
methodology,detail,description -

BTW  you left out statistical analysis

If it's good enough for General Bullmoose then it's good enough for the USA.

carabelli
Jan - 26 Aug 2004 04:47 GMT
>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>From: "carabelli" huerter@att.net.not

>Oh yeah big boy, why does MEDLINE have abstracts.

Yep, and some the dentists here have NO answers for.

Dan lied and said he did. Fact is he did NOT.

Summary Brief Abstract Citation MEDLINE ASN.1 XML/SGML LinkOut Related
>Articles
>> Protein Links Nucleotide Links Popset Links Structure Links GenomeLinks
[quoted text clipped - 133 lines]
>Okay, tell me which of the above is an abstract, which is a reference, and
>which is a study.  If you get any correct I will be shocked.

Ah ah. Let me repeat:

No do show us all your education and tell us about these abstracts and studies
and WHY you don't believe them.

Questions for you:

>> Medline has many abstracts.
>>
>> Wonder why?
>>
>> Furthermore I have posted many sudies as well. Which one did you agree
>with???

>> Now do show us all our education and tell us all about these abstracts and
>> studies, and WHY you don't believe them.

Cover these points:

>Emission of
>mercury
>> vapors in the oral cavity increased with the number of fillings.

(why is that?)

>The concentration of mercury in the oral cavity depends largely on the number

>> The purpose of this paper is to examine and report on studies that relate
>> mercury levels in human tissues to the presence of dental amalgams, giving
>> special attention to autopsy studies.

> The fact that mercury can be absorbed and reach toxic levels in
>> humantissues makes any and all exposure to that element of scientific
>interest.

(reach toxic levels, could this come from amalgams? It says makes *any*
and*all*)

>Studies showing measurable elemental mercury vapor release
>from
>> dental amalgams have raised renewed concern about amalgam safety.

>> Mercury vapor absorption occurs through the lungs, with about 80% of the
>> inhaled vapor being absorbed by the lungs and rapidly entering the
>bloodstream.

(Where does these mercury vapor come from??)

>> Following distribution by blood circulation, mercury can enter and remain
>in
>> certain tissues for longer periods of time, since the half-life of
>excretion is
>> prolonged. Two of the primary arget organs of concern are the central
>nervous system and kidneys.

(The central nervous system ah, you don't suppose my PN came from the same
place as my mercury poisoning do you?)

>> Whole-body imaging of the distribution of mercury released from dental
>fillings
>> into monkey tissues

(is mercury released from amalgams??)

>The
>present
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>resemble
>> those of humans.

> When amalgam fillings, which normally contain 50% Hg, are made with a
>tracer of
>> radioactive 203Hg and then placed into monkey teeth, the isotope appears
>in
>> high concentration in various organs and tissues within 4wk.

(now tell us how safe they are)

>****The dental profession's advocacy of silver amalgam as a stable tooth
>> restorative material is not supported by these findings.****PMID:

(time to us show all that edcuation)

>There is adequate evidence that dental amalgam restorations, during and after
>placement,
>> results in the release of Hg into the patient's body.

(do note the word adequate, I don't see, any *not credible* *real* *convining*
*hard* *clear-cut* *significant* *substantial* *solid**reasonable**compelling*
do you?)

(I see adequate.)

(What does that mean??)

Whether the Hg is due to placement procedures, surface abrasion, orl ater
>> corrosion breakdown, there is evidence that a low level Hg release
>continues
>> for years.

(could this cause mercury poisoning??)

> ****It is generally agreed that if amalgam was introduced today as a
>> restorative material, they would never pass F.D.A. approval.****

(do you agree and if so why?)

>> It is possible that we have accepted a potentially dangerous material as
>being safe.

(and your answer?)

You see, this is just an example of why I had the metal removed. I did my own
research and it matters not whether it comes from an abstract or a study.

I would like to hear the answers from ALL dentists here, and I will even remove
my block from Joel and see if he can answer without blathering.

ONE AND ALL SHOW US *YOUR* EDUCATION!!!
Joel M. Eichen - 26 Aug 2004 05:18 GMT
>>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>>From: "carabelli" huerter@att.net.not
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Dan lied and said he did. Fact is he did NOT.

Carabelli is always a gentleman .......

>Summary Brief Abstract Citation MEDLINE ASN.1 XML/SGML LinkOut Related
>>Articles
[quoted text clipped - 256 lines]
>
>ONE AND ALL SHOW US *YOUR* EDUCATION!!!
W_B - 26 Aug 2004 18:53 GMT
>Carabelli is always a gentleman .......

And so is JE...

JE, I have a request for you.
Would you please trim the extraneous material from
your one-liner replies ?
It would be greatly appreciated.

--
W_B

wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Take out the G'RBAGE
Joel M. Eichen - 26 Aug 2004 21:56 GMT
>>Carabelli is always a gentleman .......
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>your one-liner replies ?
>It would be greatly appreciated.

WILL DO!
carabelli - 26 Aug 2004 21:57 GMT
> >>Carabelli is always a gentleman .......
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> WILL DO!

I think he meant before you post it, not after.

carabelli
Joel M. Eichen - 26 Aug 2004 22:07 GMT
>> >>Carabelli is always a gentleman .......
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>carabelli

Good one ,,, takes some thought too .... Jan please ask at your Break
Dancing class what this means......
Peter Meiers - 26 Aug 2004 22:26 GMT
> >> >>Carabelli is always a gentleman .......
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Good one ,,, takes some thought too .... Jan please ask at your Break
> Dancing class what this means......

Not to be trimmed because this was no one-liner.

Peter

Signature

-History of fluorine, fluoride and fluoridation-:
--- http://PMeiers.bei.t-online.de/index.htm ---
----------------------------------------------------

Joel M. Eichen - 27 Aug 2004 00:28 GMT
>Not to be trimmed because this was no one-liner.

WHOT???
Joel M. Eichen - 26 Aug 2004 21:56 GMT
I mean WILL DO.
Jan - 27 Aug 2004 01:03 GMT
>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>From: W_B no_one@nowhere.net
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>--
>W_B

Yeah. *I-don't-want-to-be-informed-attitude*

Please do do post abstracts and questions from Jan, that we can't answer.

Summary Brief Abstract Citation MEDLINE ASN.1 XML/SGML LinkOut Related
>Articles
>> Protein Links Nucleotide Links Popset Links Structure Links GenomeLinks
[quoted text clipped - 133 lines]
>Okay, tell me which of the above is an abstract, which is a reference, and
>which is a study.  If you get any correct I will be shocked.

Ah ah. Let me repeat:

No do show us all your education and tell us about these abstracts and studies
and WHY you don't believe them.

Questions for you:

>> Medline has many abstracts.
>>
>> Wonder why?
>>
>> Furthermore I have posted many sudies as well. Which one did you agree
>with???

>> Now do show us all our education and tell us all about these abstracts and
>> studies, and WHY you don't believe them.

Cover these points:

>Emission of
>mercury
>> vapors in the oral cavity increased with the number of fillings.

(why is that?)

>The concentration of mercury in the oral cavity depends largely on the number

>> The purpose of this paper is to examine and report on studies that relate
>> mercury levels in human tissues to the presence of dental amalgams, giving
>> special attention to autopsy studies.

> The fact that mercury can be absorbed and reach toxic levels in
>> humantissues makes any and all exposure to that element of scientific
>interest.

(reach toxic levels, could this come from amalgams? It says makes *any*
and*all*)

>Studies showing measurable elemental mercury vapor release
>from
>> dental amalgams have raised renewed concern about amalgam safety.

>> Mercury vapor absorption occurs through the lungs, with about 80% of the
>> inhaled vapor being absorbed by the lungs and rapidly entering the
>bloodstream.

(Where does these mercury vapor come from??)

>> Following distribution by blood circulation, mercury can enter and remain
>in
>> certain tissues for longer periods of time, since the half-life of
>excretion is
>> prolonged. Two of the primary arget organs of concern are the central
>nervous system and kidneys.

(The central nervous system ah, you don't suppose my PN came from the same
place as my mercury poisoning do you?)

>> Whole-body imaging of the distribution of mercury released from dental
>fillings
>> into monkey tissues

(is mercury released from amalgams??)

>The
>present
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>resemble
>> those of humans.

> When amalgam fillings, which normally contain 50% Hg, are made with a
>tracer of
>> radioactive 203Hg and then placed into monkey teeth, the isotope appears
>in
>> high concentration in various organs and tissues within 4wk.

(now tell us how safe they are)

>****The dental profession's advocacy of silver amalgam as a stable tooth
>> restorative material is not supported by these findings.****PMID:

(time to us show all that edcuation)

>There is adequate evidence that dental amalgam restorations, during and after
>placement,
>> results in the release of Hg into the patient's body.

(do note the word adequate, I don't see, any *not credible* *real* *convining*
*hard* *clear-cut* *significant* *substantial* *solid**reasonable**compelling*
do you?)

(I see adequate.)

(What does that mean??)

Whether the Hg is due to placement procedures, surface abrasion, orl ater
>> corrosion breakdown, there is evidence that a low level Hg release
>continues
>> for years.

(could this cause mercury poisoning??)

> ****It is generally agreed that if amalgam was introduced today as a
>> restorative material, they would never pass F.D.A. approval.****

(do you agree and if so why?)

>> It is possible that we have accepted a potentially dangerous material as
>being safe.

(and your answer?)

You see, this is just an example of why I had the metal removed. I did my own
research and it matters not whether it comes from an abstract or a study.

I would like to hear the answers from ALL dentists here, and I will even remove
my block from Joel and see if he can answer without blathering.

ONE AND ALL SHOW US *YOUR* EDUCATION!!!
Jan - 27 Aug 2004 01:08 GMT
>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>From: W_B no_one@nowhere.net
>Date: 8/26/2004 9:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <g9gsi01fgh7dtaqb30a5heogcev4v11a33@4ax.com>

>JE, I have a request for you.
>Would you please trim the extraneous material from
>your one-liner replies ?
>It would be greatly appreciated.

Shows the total uncontrolled flip flopping of Joel. He's been asked numerous
times. He just can't remember!!!!!
The Webby - 27 Aug 2004 01:30 GMT
There are many things I don't understand about various discussions in
smd mostly because I'm not a dentist; and sometimes I'm just not
interested enough in following the topics.  However, there is one thing
that I should be able to understand but I just can't.  Why does *** ****
care what J.E. thinks, says, doesn't think, doesn't say ... why????  And
a spin off from that leaves me only to wonder why *** **** cares what
anybody in smd thinks or doesn't think.  At some point it would be
better to move on to a new crowd of readers "that" might be willing to
listen *and* actually agree.

You don't have to look too hard to find something to read all about how
amalgam in teeth is a cause for TMJ.  Hmmmm.
TW

> >Subject: Re: Abstracts
> >From: W_B no_one@nowhere.net
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Shows the total uncontrolled flip flopping of Joel. He's been asked numerous
> times. He just can't remember!!!!!
StovePipe - 28 Aug 2004 05:43 GMT
> There are many things I don't understand about various discussions in
> smd mostly because I'm not a dentist; and sometimes I'm just not
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> You don't have to look too hard to find something to read all about how
> amalgam in teeth is a cause for TMJ.  Hmmmm.

Like W_B has said: one should not feed the TROLLZ. If they don't get
their way (inducing others to respond or become indignant), they might
go away. OTOH there are worse things in this world than TROLLZ...
Just a thought
SP
Signature

To reply: take out the TRASH...

Jan - 28 Aug 2004 08:00 GMT
>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>From: stovepipeTR@ASHglobetrotter.net  (StovePipe)
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>Just a thought
>SP

It seems the webby isn't getting enough attention again and is sucking up.

I stay out of her problems, she is killfiled, she was going to stay out of
mine, but as usual she goes back on her word.

I am far from a troll, as a matter of fact, I post abstracts the dentists can't
answer.

What Joel says is mostly LIES.

I have helped others and will continue.

One of the biggest reasons people criticize or put down others is to build
themselves up. Quite often they are not sure of themselves, so it is an easy
way to feel important.

Jan

A truth’s initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie
was believed…When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the
masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its
speaker, a raving lunatic.   -Dresden James
Dr. Steve - 28 Aug 2004 14:16 GMT
Hi Jan,

You never responded to my last comment regarding the complete article
you posted regarding RCT.  Care to continue?

And please do not insult my friend SB.  She is a fine lady of
outstanding character.  (and, a good cook)

>>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>>From: stovepipeTR@ASHglobetrotter.net  (StovePipe)
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its
>speaker, a raving lunatic.   -Dresden James
Joel M. Eichen - 28 Aug 2004 15:41 GMT
>Hi Jan,
>
>You never responded to my last comment regarding the complete article
>you posted regarding RCT.  Care to continue?

Jan had root canal therapy? WHEN?????

JOEL

>And please do not insult my friend SB.  She is a fine lady of
>outstanding character.  (and, a good cook)
carabelli - 28 Aug 2004 16:19 GMT
> >Hi Jan,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> JOEL

It's obvious, right before she almost died.

carabelli
Joel M. Eichen - 28 Aug 2004 17:27 GMT
>> >Hi Jan,
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>carabelli

Before she resumed Break Dancing?
W_B - 28 Aug 2004 22:20 GMT
>> Jan had root canal therapy? WHEN?????
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>carabelli

Damned shame that she didn't.

--
W_B

wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Take out the G'RBAGE
Jan - 29 Aug 2004 06:18 GMT
>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>From: W_B no_one@nowhere.net
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Damned shame that she didn't.

Now tell me once again Dr Steve all about  WB's fine character.

He just displayed it.

Sad.

Jan
Dr. Steve - 29 Aug 2004 15:52 GMT
Jan,

I promised you, I would be polite to you in all discussions.  I only
hope you may believe me that George is one of the most compassionate
people I know. Just as I ask You hot to judge him solely by his
on-line persona I will not judge you solely by your on-line ` either.
Despite any anger you way display in your postings, I still assume you
an a nice lady in person.

>>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>>From: W_B no_one@nowhere.net
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>Jan
Joel M. Eichen - 29 Aug 2004 16:22 GMT
>Jan,
>
>I promised you, I would be polite to you in all discussions.

Steve is always a gentleman .....

>  I only
>hope you may believe me that George is one of the most compassionate
>people I know.

George is always a gentleman .....

>Just as I ask You hot to judge him solely by his
>on-line persona I will not judge you solely by your on-line ` either.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>>
>>Jan
Dr. Steve - 29 Aug 2004 16:32 GMT
Forgive the errors from this PC not recognizing my  handwriting
perfectly.

>Jan,
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>>
>>Jan
The Webby - 29 Aug 2004 17:20 GMT
The 'online persona' is a tricky, tricky thing to manage not only in
oneself but especially as we seek to interpret the online persona of
another.  This is one reason why I've always felt strongly that
offline-meetings of this online-newsgroup's participants would be of
value.  Meeting people face to face is a very valuable contribution to
our communication efforts over the long haul.

To this day, I strongly support an annual meeting of smd participants at
some location in the world offline.

Sincerely,
Sabra, The Webby

> Forgive the errors from this PC not recognizing my  handwriting
> perfectly.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> >>
> >>Jan
W_B - 29 Aug 2004 17:22 GMT
I still say:  "Vegas, baby, Vegas"

>The 'online persona' is a tricky, tricky thing to manage not only in
>oneself but especially as we seek to interpret the online persona of
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>> >>
>> >>Jan

--
W_B

wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Take out the G'RBAGE
The Webby - 29 Aug 2004 17:33 GMT
Schedule permitting, I'll be there.
TW

> I still say:  "Vegas, baby, Vegas"
>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
> Take out the G'RBAGE
StovePipe - 29 Aug 2004 19:06 GMT
> To this day, I strongly support an annual meeting of smd participants at
> some location in the world offline.
>
> Sincerely,
> Sabra, The Webby

.... (Serious,here) THe trouble is that those of us who stand to gain
most from a meeting (ME first and foremost) are precisely those who
cannot afford to go... We  could instant messenger each other, but the
proposed meeting in Vegas for me is not even a dream of possibility.
Hell, even the meeting in Troy would be impossible. I'm not trying to
cry on your shoulder, TW, just trying to tell it like it is. This is one
of the benefits of an NG like this one: I can tell y'all things, ask for
advice, etc, with out fear of being labelled as I would be in my local
dental society. Sure, we all have a personna on the group here. But,
there are advantages as well as disadvantages.  ;-)
SoSayeththe....FormerDork
S....................................pppPPPeee
Signature

To reply: take out the TRASH...

Jan - 30 Aug 2004 06:05 GMT
>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>From: Dr. Steve drsteve@no-spam.com
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Despite any anger you way display in your postings, I still assume you
>an a nice lady in person.

I understand, and disagree. WB has brought up the Salt Lake Landfill, which was
totally disrespectful  and then he says it is a shame I didn't die.

I am sorry but compassionate people just don't say such things.

Jan

>>>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>>>From: W_B no_one@nowhere.net
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>
>>Jan
Joel M. Eichen - 30 Aug 2004 12:40 GMT
>>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>>From: Dr. Steve drsteve@no-spam.com
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Jan

However ........

WB is always a gentleman ........

>>>>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>>>>From: W_B no_one@nowhere.net
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>>
>>>Jan
Dr Steve - 30 Aug 2004 14:35 GMT
Jan,

Your on-line persona often seems angry and brings out retaliatory remarks.
I have worked with this man and seen his compassion.  We are talking about
someone who flew to a different State, and paid for his air-fair, room, and
expenses to help out a patient from another country who could not get good
care where he was.  He even paid for a very nice dinner for everyone
involved prior to leaving.

Also, he has a sense of humor which he prefers to use rather than entering a
flame war.

I am taking it on good faith that you really are not such an angry person as
you appear on-line.  I say this with no disrespect.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

> >Subject: Re: Abstracts
> >From: Dr. Steve drsteve@no-spam.com
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> >>
> >>Jan
Jan - 31 Aug 2004 01:56 GMT
>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>From: "Dr Steve" nospam@home.net
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Your on-line persona often seems angry and brings out retaliatory remarks.

Dr. Steve,

It is noted you are most interested in *MY* online persona. What do you suppose
would cause me to retaliate???

It couldn't be the many posts made about me could it??

>I have worked with this man and seen his compassion.  We are talking about
>someone who flew to a different State, and paid for his air-fair, room, and
>expenses to help out a patient from another country who could not get
good care where he was.  He even paid for a very nice dinner for everyone
>involved prior to leaving.

Wonderful!!!

That does not excuse his disrespectful and non compassionate posts here.

>Also, he has a sense of humor which he prefers to use rather than entering a
>flame war.

Oh comon.

>I am taking it on good faith that you really are not such an angry person as
>you appear on-line.  I say this with no disrespect.

You are totally correct. Can you not see why I defend myself???

Perhaps this will help??

People who respect themselves view selfishness, loss of self-discipline,
recklessness, cowardice and dishonesty as wrong and unworthy of them. They have
inner strength and are unwilling to let others use or manipulate them. They
know that showing patience or tolerance does not mean allowing others to
mistreat them.  

Now,,,,,,,,,,,could you tell me what you think of WB's posts about the Salt
Lake Landfill and his saying it is a shame I didn't die???

Do you defend these kind of posts???

Jan

>~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
>Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>> >>
>> >>Jan
Dr. Steve - 31 Aug 2004 02:06 GMT
Why feed the fire with more anger?  You would actually get discussion going
if you simply dropped the spiteful anger and conversed normally.

George is a typical guy.  We like to wrestle with each, call each other
vulgar names, and punch each other in the shoulder.  Its what we do.  Much
of your complaints are about comments made which we would just brush off.

Signature

+=_-+=_-+=_-+=_-+=_-+=_-+=_-+=_-
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan  USA
.dr.steve@man.cuso.d.d.s.com.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> >Subject: Re: Abstracts
>>From: "Dr Steve" nospam@home.net
[quoted text clipped - 110 lines]
>>> >>
>>> >>Jan
Jan - 29 Aug 2004 06:16 GMT
>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>From: "carabelli" huerter@worldnet.att.net
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>carabelli

If you are trying to be funny, try again. Almost dying is nothing to be made
fun of. You are despicable.

Jan
Joel M. Eichen - 29 Aug 2004 12:29 GMT
>>It's obvious, right before she almost died.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Jan

This is true. People who die can no longer Break Dance.
Jan - 29 Aug 2004 06:14 GMT
>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>From: Dr. Steve drsteve@no-spam.com
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>You never responded to my last comment regarding the complete article
>you posted regarding RCT.  Care to continue?

I didn't? You sure about that?

>And please do not insult my friend SB.  She is a fine lady of
>outstanding character.  (and, a good cook)

Your outstanding character lady friend, did a search on Jan Drew's for no other
reason than to belittle.  She caused an uproar and one innocnet lady in Florida
who was doing good works for the community was mentioned.

I had to call the church to alert them, as Richard H Jacobson known liar made
up stories.

I have seen her character,even before that and I totally disagree, she is a
busy body and a suck up here.

Of course you also told me what a fine guy WB is. Sorry he has proven
otherwise.

Therefore, I can't trust your judgment.

Jan

>>>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>>>From: stovepipeTR@ASHglobetrotter.net  (StovePipe)
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>>A truth’s initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie
>>was believed…When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to
the
>>masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its
>>speaker, a raving lunatic.   -Dresden James
Joel M. Eichen - 29 Aug 2004 12:30 GMT
This is puzzling ......... if I have an internet question, what church
do I call up?

Joel

>I had to call the church to alert them, as Richard H Jacobson known liar made
>up stories.
>
>I have seen her character,even before that and I totally disagree, she is a
>busy body and a suck up here.
Dr. Steve - 29 Aug 2004 14:40 GMT
> >Hi Jan,
> >
> >You never responded to my last comment regarding the complete article
> >you posted regarding RCT.  Care to continue?
>
> I didn't? You sure about that?

certain.  I even checked from different PC's in case your reply got filtered
out by mistake.
Jan - 30 Aug 2004 06:00 GMT
>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>From: "Dr. Steve" dr.steve.@.m.a.n.c.u.s.o.d.d.s.com
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>certain.  I even checked from different PC's in case your reply got filtered
>out by mistake.

Is this what you are talking about??

I did reply and we have already discussed root canals, I was not pleased with
your continued response of each website, I think it was a bunch of excuses.
That was some time ago, not to be confused with the current post.

From: Dr Steve (nospam@home.net)
Subject: Re: Ping JWN
View: Complete Thread (85 articles)  
Original Format
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
Date: 2004-08-11 05:34:08 PST


Hi Jan,

Thank you for taking the time to respond.  That was very nice of you.

Please understand that I was not arguing your premise of the dentinal
tubules remaining full of living bacteria.  I was pointing out that the
article you listed, dies not support your thesis.  Perhaps another article
would support it very well.  I would be happy to either discuss this article
further or a different one

sincerely,

Dr Steve M.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

> >Subject: Re: Ping JWN
> >From: "Dr. Steve" dr.steve.@.m.a.n.c.u.s.o.d.d.s.com
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> When all three miles of this get infected, it can cause super health
problems.

> Therefore alternative/holistic dentists don't do them.
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> It has been shown that dentinal tubules of infected roots might harbor
bacteria
> to some extent (Ortstavik and Haapasalo, 1990; Sen et al., 1995), which may
be
> a reason for persistent infection. It is questionable whether sufficient
> amounts of the commonly used medicaments can penetrate into dentinal tubules
to
> achieve disinfection. A few attempts have been made to establish in vitro
test
> models of root canal infections and disinfection (Akpata and Blechman, 1982;
> Haapasalo and Ortstavik, 1987). A simple method for studying the elimination
of
> tubule infection by several medicaments is lacking.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Jan
Dr Steve - 30 Aug 2004 14:29 GMT
yes

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.

> >> >Hi Jan,
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Dr Steve M.
Jan - 31 Aug 2004 01:46 GMT
>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>From: "Dr Steve" nospam@home.net
>Date: 8/30/2004 5:29 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <PYFYc.6529$ZC7.6287@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>
>
>yes

Thank you, I thought I had replied. Sorry you couldn't find it.

Jan

>~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
>Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>>
>> Dr Steve M.
The Webby - 29 Aug 2004 16:12 GMT
Please keep me in the killfile.  I don't use one because I prefer to
keep my eyes on my could-be enemies.  What would you say if one day
someone introduced you to me?  What would I say?  I'd say "hello".

TW

> It seems the webby isn't getting enough attention again and is sucking up.
>
> I stay out of her problems, she is killfiled, she was going to stay out of
> mine, but as usual she goes back on her word.
carabelli - 29 Aug 2004 19:24 GMT
> Please keep me in the killfile.  I don't use one because I prefer to
> keep my eyes on my could-be enemies.  What would you say if one day
> someone introduced you to me?  What would I say?  I'd say "hello".
>
> TW

Happy Oyster would tell him his pants are unzipped.

carabelli
The Webby - 29 Aug 2004 19:34 GMT
It must be difficult being *** ****.  
TW

In article
<WbpYc.530477$Gx4.127835@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,

> "The Webby" <nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam@san.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:nospamattmjiatroepidemicnospam-F2BEAA.08122029082004@orngca-news04.socal.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> carabelli
Jan - 30 Aug 2004 06:11 GMT
>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>From: "carabelli" huerter@worldnet.att.net
>Date: 8/29/2004 10:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <WbpYc.530477$Gx4.127835@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>
>> Please keep me in the killfile.

You never been taken out.

Surely you understand I see some of what you say in others' posts.

>  I don't use one because I prefer to
>> keep my eyes on my could-be enemies.

>What would you say if one day
>> someone introduced you to me?  What would I say?  I'd say "hello".

It's nice to meet you, please tell me why you found it necessary to post as you
did and involve innocent people?

<snip Dan's bad attempt at humor
Steven Fawks - 30 Aug 2004 14:00 GMT
At least Dan keeps all of his blood out of his nerves.  I think
that something is wrong with your CNS.

Fawks

J** wrote:

> <snip Dan's bad attempt at humor
Jan - 31 Aug 2004 01:44 GMT
>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>From: Steven Fawks tuthjockey@earthlink.net
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>At least Dan keeps all of his blood out of his nerves.  I think
>that something is wrong with your CNS.

I don't thnk it, I know it. Like to try a bit of peripheral neuropathy??

Jan
Joel M. Eichen - 31 Aug 2004 11:18 GMT
>>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>>From: Steven Fawks tuthjockey@earthlink.net
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Jan

Fries with that neuropathy?
The Webby - 30 Aug 2004 15:29 GMT
Why have I involved innocent people in what?  If I've involved innocent
people in anything having to do with you and/or your "name", I would
think the question falls squarely into your area of responsibility.  

Do you believe that you are the only "person" in the world using the
name "Jan Drew"?  Don't you realize that mistaken identity is something
every one of us must live with daily?  

Learn to understand, forgive, and forget.  It will help your stress
levels.

TW

> >Subject: Re: Abstracts
> >From: "carabelli" huerter@worldnet.att.net
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> <snip Dan's bad attempt at humor
carabelli - 27 Aug 2004 02:11 GMT
> >Subject: Re: Abstracts
> >From: W_B no_one@nowhere.net
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Shows the total uncontrolled flip flopping of Joel. He's been asked numerous
> times. He just can't remember!!!!!

Remember what?
Joel M. Eichen - 27 Aug 2004 13:46 GMT
>> >Subject: Re: Abstracts
>> >From: W_B no_one@nowhere.net
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Remember what?

Just remembered how to turn the computer on ... now where were we
....?
Jan - 26 Aug 2004 04:43 GMT
>Subject: Abstracts
>From: W_B no_one@nowhere.net
>Date: 8/25/2004 4:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <duiqi0ph9sb6e4h19e5s55ll3p7at0bbtj@4ax.com>

>The manufacturer cites a number of abstracts in support of the
>effectiveness of the Cavitat. However, abstracts do not undergo the
>detailed peer review that is required for publication of an article in
>a quality peer-reviewed medical journal

(OOOOPs, now whayagonnado??)

Robert W. Maver, F.S.A., M.A.A.A.
Reprinted from The World Research News, 1st quarter 1998 issue, with
permission.

The premise is that there are innovative medical therapies existing
today that offer solutions to some of our most pressing health
problems and that at the same time offer a significant reduction in
health care costs. These therapies are largely being ignored or in
some cases ridiculed.

To most of us involved in scientific research, this seems an odd
notion at first. Surely, one would think, discoveries and
breakthroughs offering great promise in the treatment of disease
would be at once communicated and embraced by the scientific/medical
community. However, those who study the history of scientific
progress conclude otherwise. Science frequently fails to demonstrate
the dispassion we attribute to it.

Historical citations of science resisting new ideas are too numerous
to review in any depth, from Copernicus to Galileo to Darwin, Mendel,
Ohm, Young, Pasteur, lister, Fleming ... the list goes on and on. It
is perhaps more instructive to briefly examine the reasons for resis
tance to innovation in medicine.

Tomato Effect - The tomato effect in medicine occurs when a highly
efficacious therapy for a certain disease is ignored or rejected
because it does not '.make sense" in the light of accepted theories
of disease mechanism and drug action. Doctors at the University of
New Mexico School of Medicine introduced the tomato effect in JAMA.
May 11, 1984. Its name is derived from the history of the tomato in
North America. By 1560, the tomato was becoming a staple of the
continental European diet. However, it was shunned in America until
the 1800's. Why? Because we knew it was poisonous. Everyone knew
tomatoes belong to the nightshade family. The leaves and fruit of
several plants in this family can cause death if ingested. The fact
that Europeans were eating tomatoes without harm was not relevant. It
simply did not make sense to eat poisonous food.

Peer Review - Ile peer review process probably has done more to
discourage innovative research than any other factor that I have
observed.

***The March 9, 1990 issue of JAMA was devoted entirely to the
topic of peer review****

One article in particular, by Horrobin (himself
editor of a peer reviewed medical journal) , cited 18 examples of
peer review attempting to suppress medical innovation. The article
observed: " ... some of the most distinguished of scientists may
display sophisticated behavior that can only be described as
pathological. Editors must be conscious that, despite public
protestations to the contrary, many scientistreviewers are against
innovation unless it is their innovation. Innovation from others may
be a threat because it diminishes the importance of the scientist's
own work.

"Peer review in the grant giving process is so restrictive that most
innovative scientists know they would never receive funding if they
actually said what they were going to do. Scientists therefore have
to tell lies in their grant applications. Such views have explicitly
been stated by at least two Nobel Laureates."

The (JAMA) article contends that medicine has lost sight of the basic
purpose of peer review, asserting, "the true aim of peer review in
biomedical science must be to improve the quality of patient care."

Wrong Economics - When a new therapy comes along that is cheaper,
safer and more effective, it is seen as a competitive threat to those
engaged in the therapy it will displace. Those who stand to be most
economically disadvantaged naturally endeavor to block its
acceptance.

International Barriers - A combination of communication problems
(language barriers) and national chauvinism (if it wasn't discovered
here it can't be of much value) keep some innovative practices
developed in Europe and Asia from reaching the United States.

Cumbersome Bureaucracy - It has been estimated that the FDA approval
process takes an average of 12 years and costs $231 million. This
presents unique difficulties for independent researchers and for
therapies that do not lend themselves to patentability.

It is my observation that there is a role for the insurance industry
in advocating evaluation of innovative medical thera pies. Actuaries
should be almost immune to the tomato effect. We are focused almost
exclusively on statistical results as opposed to theory. Since the
insurance industry pays most of the bills, it should have great
economic motivation to see safe., effective and inexpensive therapies
extensively evaluated and widely disseminated. Consideration of an
industry-wide fund for innovative research could deal with the
problem of peer review. The insurance industry is a sleeping economic
giant. When it awakens to the cost containment possibilities
available through innovative therapies, we will see enormous changes
in the practice of medicine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Volume 6 No. 3 The Road Back Foundation" Antibiotic Therapy for
Rheumatic Diseases Summer 1998
Steven Fawks - 26 Aug 2004 14:26 GMT
I wonder who the new "J**" is?  But, I guess we never knew who the 'old' one
was either.

;-)
Fawks

J** wrote:

> (OOOOPs, now whayagonnado??)
Jan - 27 Aug 2004 00:59 GMT
>Subject: Re: Abstracts
>From: Steven Fawks tuthjockey@earthlink.net
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I wonder who the new "J**" is?  But, I guess we never knew who the 'old' one
>was either.

How delightful, your posts are so educational. Great addition to the
discussion.

It is noted you can't stand the truth, so you snip.

> (OOOOPs, now whayagonnado??)

None of the dentists dare get real, they might be exposed. I wonder what WB is
gonnadonow???

Robert W. Maver, F.S.A., M.A.A.A.
Reprinted from The World Research News, 1st quarter 1998 issue, with
permission.

The premise is that there are innovative medical therapies existing
today that offer solutions to some of our most pressing health
problems and that at the same time offer a significant reduction in
health care costs. These therapies are largely being ignored or in
some cases ridiculed.

To most of us involved in scientific research, this seems an odd
notion at first. Surely, one would think, discoveries and
breakthroughs offering great promise in the treatment of disease
would be at once communicated and embraced by the scientific/medical
community. However, those who study the history of scientific
progress conclude otherwise. Science frequently fails to demonstrate
the dispassion we attribute to it.

Historical citations of science resisting new ideas are too numerous
to review in any depth, from Copernicus to Galileo to Darwin, Mendel,
Ohm, Young, Pasteur, lister, Fleming ... the list goes on and on. It
is perhaps more instructive to briefly examine the reasons for resis
tance to innovation in medicine.

Tomato Effect - The tomato effect in medicine occurs when a highly
efficacious therapy for a certain disease is ignored or rejected
because it does not '.make sense" in the light of accepted theories
of disease mechanism and drug action. Doctors at the University of
New Mexico School of Medicine introduced the tomato effect in JAMA.
May 11, 1984. Its name is derived from the history of the tomato in
North America. By 1560, the tomato was becoming a staple of the
continental European diet. However, it was shunned in America until
the 1800's. Why? Because we knew it was poisonous. Everyone knew
tomatoes belong to the nightshade family. The leaves and fruit of
several plants in this family can cause death if ingested. The fact
that Europeans were eating tomatoes without harm was not relevant. It
simply did not make sense to eat poisonous food.

Peer Review - Ile peer review process probably has done more to
discourage innovative research than any other factor that I have
observed. The March 9, 1990 issue of JAMA was devoted entirely to the
topic of peer review. One article in particular, by Horrobin (himself
editor of a peer reviewed medical journal) , cited 18 examples of
peer review attempting to suppress medical innovation. The article
observed: " ... some of the most distinguished of scientists may
display sophisticated behavior that can only be described as
pathological. Editors must be conscious that, despite public
protestations to the contrary, many scientistreviewers are against
innovation unless it is their innovation. Innovation from others may
be a threat because it diminishes the importance of the scientist's
own work.

"Peer review in the grant giving process is so restrictive that most
innovative scientists know they would never receive funding if they
actually said what they were going to do. Scientists therefore have
to tell lies in their grant applications. Such views have explicitly
been stated by at least two Nobel Laureates."

The (JAMA) article contends that medicine has lost sight of the basic
purpose of peer review, asserting, "the true aim of peer review in
biomedical science must be to improve the quality of patient care."

Wrong Economics - When a new therapy comes along that is cheaper,
safer and more effective, it is seen as a competitive threat to those
engaged in the therapy it will displace. Those who stand to be most
economically disadvantaged naturally endeavor to block its
acceptance.

International Barriers - A combination of communication problems
(language barriers) and national chauvinism (if it wasn't discovered
here it can't be of much value) keep some innovative practices
developed in Europe and Asia from reaching the United States.

Cumbersome Bureaucracy - It has been estimated that the FDA approval
process takes an average of 12 years and costs $231 million. This
presents unique difficulties for independent researchers and for
therapies that do not lend themselves to patentability.

It is my observation that there is a role for the insurance industry
in advocating evaluation of innovative medical thera pies. Actuaries
should be almost immune to the tomato effect. We are focused almost
exclusively on statistical results as opposed to theory. Since the
insurance industry pays most of the bills, it should have great
economic motivation to see safe., effective and inexpensive therapies
extensively evaluated and widely disseminated. Consideration of an
industry-wide fund for innovative research could deal with the
problem of peer review. The insurance industry is a sleeping economic
giant. When it awakens to the cost containment possibilities
available through innovative therapies, we will see enormous changes
in the practice of medicine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Volume 6 No. 3 The Road Back Foundation" Antibiotic Therapy for
Rheumatic Diseases Summer 1998
 
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