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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / January 2006

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Removal of amalgam buildup

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Yev - 17 Mar 2004 22:05 GMT
Hi, I posted similar message a while ago but still having problems
with this issue.  I want to remove my amalgam fillings (please dont
ask why, i dont want to start long discussion about safety of amalgam
-:).  Most of them can be removed easily but i have 2 back teeth with
root canals which have amalgam build up going partially to the canals.
My general dentist said she can't remove them and i need to go to
endodontist.  So far I went to 3 endodontists and none of them agreed
to do this procedure.  Some of them said they dont do this procedure
at all, other said there is a risk for the tooth, so they dont wanna
do it.  So is it possible to remove that stuff from my teeth,
hopefully without destroying them?  I can do post and crown on them
after that, but dont wanna leave silver filling inside.  What
specialist should i go to?

Thanks,
Yev
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 17 Mar 2004 22:06 GMT
>Hi, I posted similar message a while ago but still having problems
>with this issue.  I want to remove my amalgam fillings (please dont
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> My general dentist said she can't remove them and i need to go to
>endodontist.

Oh I do not know about that .......

> So far I went to 3 endodontists and none of them agreed
>to do this procedure.

Right. They are endodontists, not amalgam excavators!

> Some of them said they dont do this procedure
>at all, other said there is a risk for the tooth, so they dont wanna
>do it.  So is it possible to remove that stuff from my teeth,
>hopefully without destroying them?

Sure.

> I can do post and crown on them
>after that, but dont wanna leave silver filling inside.  What
>specialist should i go to?

A good general dentist ......

I mean a g-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-d general dentist!

JOEL

>Thanks,
>Yev
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS - 17 Mar 2004 22:40 GMT
> Hi, I posted similar message a while ago but still having problems
> with this issue.  I want to remove my amalgam fillings (please dont
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Thanks,
> Yev

   Joel's right--if the tooth is restorable, I can't see why there would
be any problem removing amalgam from the tooth.  I'm sure the pulp chamber
is filled with amalgam, but it's unlikely it extends significantly down
the canals.  If the canals have been overprepared there is a risk that the
root may be perforated during removal, but reasonably if your dentist has
a reasonably steady hand it shouldn't be a problem.
   If she doesn't have a reasonably steady hand,...RUN!

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 17 Mar 2004 23:02 GMT
In addition, amalgam should never extend down inside the root canal
space. It adds NO strength. Amalgam resists crushing strength and in
bulk, is fairly strong. A thin pencil-like extrusion of amalgam is
detriment to the tooth.

JOEL

>> Hi, I posted similar message a while ago but still having problems
>> with this issue.  I want to remove my amalgam fillings (please dont
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>Steve
Yev - 18 Mar 2004 04:53 GMT
> In addition, amalgam should never extend down inside the root canal
> space. It adds NO strength. Amalgam resists crushing strength and in
> bulk, is fairly strong. A thin pencil-like extrusion of amalgam is
> detriment to the tooth.
>
> JOEL

I m not an expert, but from my xrays i can see those pensil-like
excursions you are talking about, extending a little bit into the
canals.  Is it possible to drill amalgam out of there?  From what you
guys are saying, its pretty trivial job.  I wish i could find a
dentist or specialist who would do it.  Im in Bay area, CA.  If you
have any recommendations, please let me know.

Thanks,
Yev
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 18 Mar 2004 14:59 GMT
>> In addition, amalgam should never extend down inside the root canal
>> space. It adds NO strength. Amalgam resists crushing strength and in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>excursions you are talking about, extending a little bit into the
>canals.  Is it possible to drill amalgam out of there?

Takes me 04 seconds!

This dentist you are talking about is not being upfront and honest.
All dentists can drill it out pronto!

JOEL

> From what you
>guys are saying, its pretty trivial job.

Extremely so.

>  I wish i could find a
>dentist or specialist who would do it.  Im in Bay area, CA.  If you
>have any recommendations, please let me know.

Is that around San Francisco? I will see what I can do ....

JOEL

>Thanks,
>Yev
Steven Fawks - 18 Mar 2004 17:58 GMT
The best recommendation is just to crown the tooth over the amalgam.
Once the amalgam is sealed under a crown, it won't contribute to any
imaginary amalgam poisoning.

BTW, I haven't used amalgam myself since 1985, so don't think I'm
defending its use for any blind selfish reasons.

Fawks

> I m not an expert, but from my xrays i can see those pensil-like
> excursions you are talking about, extending a little bit into the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Thanks,
> Yev
Jan - 19 Mar 2004 00:28 GMT
>Subject: Re: Removal of amalgam buildup
>From: Steven Fawks tuthjockey@earthlink.net
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Once the amalgam is sealed under a crown, it won't contribute to any
>imaginary amalgam poisoning.

Two HUGE lies there.

1. Always make sure EVERY SPECK of metal is gone.

2.Amalgam poisoning is not imaginary.

The insinulation that dentists who tell the risks is for selfish reasons is
better known as remaining in denial.

As a matter of fact laws are being made to post the risks, becuase of DISHONEST
dentist as we have just seen.

http://www.toxicteeth.net

Fawks iis of the good ole boy and girl club, which is far more important the
environmental issues.

http://www.maineenvironment.org/merc_red_act.htm

http://www.mercurypolicy.org

http://www.mercurypolicy.org/exposure/documents/model_state_leg.pdf

Correct protocol.

http://www.testfoundation.org/amalgremove.htm

http://www.zip.com.au/~rgammal/AmalRemProc.html

http://www.curezone.com/dental/dental_amalgam.asp

http://www.ccrlab.com/

http://www.holisticmed.com/dental/amalgam/iaomt.txt

http://www.holisticmed.com/dental/amalgam/

http://www.naturomedbc.com/clinchandouts/dentistprotocol.htm

http://www.envirodental.co.uk/iaomtrmv.asp

http://www.hugnet.com/protocol.html

http://www.biologicaldent.com/center_for_biological_dentistry/protocols.html

http://www.mercuryfilling.com/
(bottom of URL and click protocols)

Dentist: How To Replace Amalgam Fillings, mercury health risk
Once the removal has begun, the mercury vapor will be continuously released
from the tooth.  During the removal or placement of amalgam the patient can be
exposed to amounts which are a thousand times greater than the EPA allowable
concentration.

Protocol for Amalgam-Mercury-Silver Filling Removal

By

International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology
HOME - Health Dental Risk Page - CANCER Page - Amalgam Replacement Protocol -
Disclaimer

PATIENT PROTECTION

First in every concerned doctor's mind is the protection of the patient from
additional exposure to mercury. This is especially true of the mercury toxic
patient. The mercury toxic patient may have been exposed to varying amounts of
mercury from diet, environment, employment or from mercury/silver dental
fillings. All forms are cumulative and can contribute to the body burden. The
goal of this preferred procedure is to minimize any additional exposure of the
patient, ourselves, or staff to mercury.

During chewing the patient is exposed to intraoral levels which are several
times the EPA allowable air concentration. 2 During the removal or placement of
amalgam the patient can be exposed to amounts which are a thousand times
greater than the EPA allowable concentration.3 Once the drill touches the
filling temperature increases immediately vaporizing the mercury component of
the alloy. There are 8 steps to greatly reducing everyone's exposure.

1. Keep the fillings cool

All removal must be done under cold water spray with copious amounts of water.
Once the removal has begun, the mercury vapor will be continuously released
from the tooth.

2. Use a high volume evacuator

Therefore, a high volume evacuator tip should be kept near the tooth (1/2 inch)
at all times to evacuate this vapor from the area of the patient. Polishing
amalgam can create very dangerous levels of mercury and should be avoided
especially for the mercury toxic patient.

3. Provide an alternative air source

All patients having amalgam removed or placed should be provided with an
alternative air source and instructed to not breathe through their mouth during
treatment. A nasal hood such as is used with the nitrous oxide analgesia
equipment is excellent. Air is best and oxygen is acceptable although not
required. If just air is used it should be clean and free of mercury vapor
preferably from outside the dental office.

4. Immediately dispose of the mercury alloy

Particles of mercury alloy should be washed and vacuumed away as soon as they
are generated. The filling should be sectioned and removed in large pieces to
reduce exposure.

At present the International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology (IAOMT)
has approved removal both with and without the use of a rubber dam. Some
evidence exist to support both views since high levels of mercury and amalgam
particles can be found under the dam. All members are agreed that whether or
not a rubber dam is used the patient should be instructed to not breathe
through their mouth or swallow the particles. Some experts feel that it is
better to remove the amalgam first and then apply the dam if needed for
restorative procedures.

5. Lavage, and change gloves

After the fillings have been removed, take off the rubber dam if one was used
and lavage the patients mouth for at least 30 seconds with cold water and
vacuum. Remove your gloves and replace them with a new pair. If a restorative
procedure is next then reapply a new dam and proceed.

6. Immediately clean patient

Immediately change patient's protective wear and clean their face.

7. Consider nutritional support

Consider appropriate nutritional support before, during and after removal.

8. Keep room air pure

Install room air purifiers or ionizers and fans for everyone's well being.

STAFF PROTECTION

OSHA4 5 requires that employees be given written informed consent before the
use of any toxic chemicals of which mercury is one. Elemental mercury vapor is
one of the most toxic forms of mercury and should not breathed. Women of child
bearing age should be exposed to no more than 10% of the OSHA MAC6. Women who
are pregnant should be exposed to no mercury.7 If you use mercury or remove
mercury in any form the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health
(NIOSH) has recommended that your employees be medically monitored annually.

ANY MERCURY EXPOSURE REQUIRES THAT THE EMPLOYEE WEAR AN APPROVED MERCURY FILTER
MASK.

An approved mask is appropriate for wearing during all dental procedures which
will expose you or your staff to mercury.8

The manner in which dentists operate their equipment dramatically affects the
amount of mercury released. Never drill on mercury high dry. It is hazardous to
you, your staff, and your patient. Levels as high as 4000 m g/M3 have been
measured 18" from the drill when used high dry. Levels over 1000 m g/M3 are
measurable upon opening an amalgam mixing capsule.

One out of 7 California dental offices tested over the OSHA TWA of 50 m g/M 3 .
100% of the vacuum cleaner exhaust tested over 100 m g/M 3 . Any office where
mercury is used should be tested regularly and staff should be monitored for
exposure. Testing services are available and a mercury sensor badge is
available for personnel monitoring. They should test inside storage areas and
along baseboards where mercury might have dropped. Office spills can go
undetected for years and are extremely hazardous.

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NEW!  DENTAL CLEANSE DISCUSSION AND SUPPORT GROUP

"One of the most important thing

that you can do for your health"--Dr.Hal Higgins

Read the archives of Dentalcleanse Support Group

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REFERENCES

1 IAOMT Standards of Care Preferred Procedure Approved 9/27/92

2 EPA United States Environmental Protection Agency Office of Health and
Environment Assessment Mercury health effects update Final Report
EPA-600/8-84-019F 1971 EPA

3 Cooley RL, Barkmeier WW: Mercury vapor emitted during ultraspeed cutting of
amalgam. J Indiana Dent Assoc 57:28-31, 1978

4 OSHA Job Health Series: Mercury.(2234)8/1975

5 Hazard Communication Program Federal Register/ Vol. 52. No. 163 / Monday,
August 24, 1987

6 OSHA MAC is Threshold Limit Value of 100 micrograms/ cubic meter or 100 PPM
This is a never to be exceeded standard.

7 Koos BJ and Lango LD , Mercury Toxicity in the pregnant woman, fetus, and
newborn infant. A review Am J Obstetrics and Gynecology 126(3):390-409, 1976

8 Mine Safety Association high levels and 3M mercury dust mask lower levels

Jan

*IF* you have an unanswered health problem,,,,,,,,CHECK THE TEETH!

NOT by a mainstream dentist, but an Alt. dentist who KNOWS the dangers of metal
in the mouth and root canals, and follows correct protocol.

I did, it saved my life.

Mercury is Poisonous.

There is NO safe form of Mercury in living tissue.

The mercury vapor from dental amalgam alone is a bigger source than all the
other sources together.

U151 identifies mercury as a toxic waste.

Mercury is also recovered from discarded products and wastes such
aschlor-alkali wastes, dental amalgams, fluorescent light tubes, electronic
devices, and others. The mercury is vaporized in a retort and collected by
condensation. Condensed mercury is then distilled to remove impurities.

***The Environmental Protection Agency is working to reduce the amount of
mercuryin the environment *****

http://www.ehs.ucsf.edu/Manuals/CSM/Csm_Chapter9.htm

17. DENTAL AMALGAM

Dental amalgams are mixtures of mercury with silver tin alloy. Cal-EPA
regulates them as ***chemical waste.*** Submit Chemical Waste Removal Form for
its disposal
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 19 Mar 2004 13:20 GMT
Not so!

Dentists do not insinulate anything.

What means insinulate?

>The insinulation that dentists who tell the risks is for selfish reasons is
>better known as remaining in denial.
StovePipe - 19 Mar 2004 06:25 GMT
> The best recommendation is just to crown the tooth over the amalgam.
> Once the amalgam is sealed under a crown, it won't contribute to any
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Fawks

If you don't mind my asking: How do you treat deep carious lesions
(proximally or buccally... the ones that are deep under the gum line)?
When I attack these, there is the inevitable bleeding. I shove my wedges
in there as tight as I can, but it's still not as dry as it should be
for composite.

I don't love placing amalgams, but, again, in these types of cases, how
in Mercury's name can you avoid it?

Cheers
SP

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To reply: take out the TRASH...

Steven Fawks - 22 Mar 2004 22:55 GMT
Sorry, I've been away since Friday.

Rubber dams help.  Wedges, bands, cord, electrosurge (or laser), SE
Bond,  even glass ionomer products, etc. can play a role.  Is it always
easy and fast?  No.  The more you practice, the better it gets.

:-)
Fawks

> If you don't mind my asking: How do you treat deep carious lesions
> (proximally or buccally... the ones that are deep under the gum line)?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Cheers
> SP
StovePipe - 23 Mar 2004 06:39 GMT
> Sorry, I've been away since Friday.
It's cool...

> Rubber dams help.  Wedges, bands, cord, electrosurge (or laser), SE
> Bond,  even glass ionomer products, etc. can play a role.  Is it always
> easy and fast?  No.  The more you practice, the better it gets.
>
> :-)
> Fawks

Thanks for the input. At least it's encouraging. I should try to do
coagulation with the Millennium. It's not the best laser for that, but
it's better than nothing.

I hate to pester you, F but: why do you mention SE Bond (ClearFil)? I
don't see any advantage to it in a wet field. Is there supposed to be
hemostatic effect? I tend to save it for kids' teeth, because it means
less steps to do, thus faster.
Thanks
SP

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Steven Fawks - 23 Mar 2004 18:57 GMT
I mention SE Bond for two reasons.  Once you have a controlled field, it
is easier to maintain when you don't have to rinse off etchant and I
have found some bonding agents that seem to promote bleeding (irritant?
clot dissolving?  I don't know, but everything looks perfect, place the
bond and an instant little bleeder crops up.  SE Bond does not have the
same effect).

JME,
Fawks

> I hate to pester you, F but: why do you mention SE Bond (ClearFil)? I
> don't see any advantage to it in a wet field. Is there supposed to be
> hemostatic effect? I tend to save it for kids' teeth, because it means
> less steps to do, thus faster.
> Thanks
> SP
StovePipe - 24 Mar 2004 04:12 GMT
> I mention SE Bond for two reasons.  Once you have a controlled field, it
> is easier to maintain when you don't have to rinse off etchant and I
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> JME,
> Fawks

A-Ha! Now that you mention it, I have seen the same thing with Single
Bond (3M). I thought it came from disturbing the inflammed tissue with
air spray, or the EtOH in the bonding agent acting as a vasodilator.
This puts a new light on self-etch, although I have seen several
evaluations saying that they are lower in bond strength vs 4th
generation systems. Too bad Karl Leinfelder doesn't stop in here more
often.
Thanks!
SP
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Steven Fawks - 24 Mar 2004 16:27 GMT
It's only been within the last year that I began using SE Bond very
often.  I've used Bond 1 for years and it is not easy to switch to new
materials when the 'old' one has worked so well for a long time.

Bond strength has always been important to me when considering composite
use.  CRA tested 21 SE systems and published their results in the
Nov/Dec 2003 issue.  Clearfil SE had 43.7 MPa to dentin and 28.5 MPa to
cut enamel.  This enamel bond strength is only slightly under Optibond
Solo Plus (29.1 MPa) and higher than any material that did not involve a
separate etch (even if it was enamel only).

Microleakage is another factor that I consider.  Clearfil SE Bond and
Clearfil Liner Bond 2V were the *only* SEP adhesives with microleakage
scores comparable to the total etch adhesives tested (Optibond Solo
Plus, All-Bond 2, and Prime & Bond NT).

While CRA should not be considered *THE* only judge of any material,
they seem to be fairly accurate most of the time.

No financial intests in any of these materials.

Best wishes,
Fawks

> A-Ha! Now that you mention it, I have seen the same thing with Single
> Bond (3M). I thought it came from disturbing the inflammed tissue with
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Thanks!
> SP
Steven Fawks - 24 Mar 2004 22:39 GMT
One minor error:  CRA tested *18* SE bonding systems (however 2 systems
recommend a separate etch step for enamel, so I don't think that's quite
SE) along with *3* total etch systems, for a total of 21 bonding systems.

Got to please the hair splitters,

Fawks

 CRA tested 21 SE systems and published their results in the
> Nov/Dec 2003 issue.
StovePipe - 25 Mar 2004 06:46 GMT
> Bond strength has always been important to me when considering composite
> use.  CRA tested 21 SE systems and published their results in the
> Nov/Dec 2003 issue.  Clearfil SE had 43.7 MPa to dentin and 28.5 MPa to
> cut enamel.  This enamel bond strength is only slightly under Optibond
> Solo Plus (29.1 MPa) and higher than any material that did not involve a
> separate etch (even if it was enamel only).

This is useful to know. I tend to get a lot of open caries with a lot of
exposed dentin and not much enamel. I'll pull out the ol' ClearFil more
often for those cases.
thanks
SP
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Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 25 Mar 2004 13:26 GMT
You wrote,

>>Clearfil SE had 43.7 MPa to dentin and 28.5 MPa to
>> cut enamel.

REPLY

Are you sure about this? I did not check your sources  but my
impression is that bond strengths are always higher for enamel than
they are for dentin. This follows the histology of both tissues.

JOEL

>> Bond strength has always been important to me when considering composite
>> use.  CRA tested 21 SE systems and published their results in the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>thanks
>SP
Steven Fawks - 29 Mar 2004 23:09 GMT
I'm sure that those were the numbers CRA reported.  About half of the SE
systems had dentin bonding strengths higher than 30 MPa.

Times and materials change.

Fawks

> You wrote,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> JOEL
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 30 Mar 2004 14:54 GMT
Steve Fawks,,,,,,,, isn't enamel bonding supposed to be higher than
for dentin bonding?

JOEL

>I'm sure that those were the numbers CRA reported.  About half of the SE
>systems had dentin bonding strengths higher than 30 MPa.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>>
>> JOEL
Steven Fawks - 31 Mar 2004 15:34 GMT
I remember when 'experts' said:

Etching dentin will kill the pulp.

Bonding to dentin is impossible.

You cannot bond to primary teeth successfully.

Composite will not last as a posterior restorative material.

Why would "enamel bonds are always stronger than dentin bonds" be an
ultimate truth?

Fawks

> Steve Fawks,,,,,,,, isn't enamel bonding supposed to be higher than
> for dentin bonding?
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 31 Mar 2004 20:14 GMT
1. Measured by CRA and Gordo.

2. More inorganic material to be etched and to be bonded to .....

JOEL

>I remember when 'experts' said:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>> Steve Fawks,,,,,,,, isn't enamel bonding supposed to be higher than
>> for dentin bonding?
Steven Fawks DDS - 01 Apr 2004 05:34 GMT
Did you happen to notice that the data that I was quoting came
from Gordon and CRA?  Or are you saying they don't know how to
measure bond strengths?

I cannot swear by the measurements since I wasn't there to observe
them, but I don't have much reason to doubt CRA in this area.

Beyond that, peace out.

Fawks

> 1. Measured by CRA and Gordo.
>
> 2. More inorganic material to be etched and to be bonded to .....
>
> JOEL

> >Why would "enamel bonds are always stronger than dentin bonds" be an
> >ultimate truth?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> >> Steve Fawks,,,,,,,, isn't enamel bonding supposed to be higher than
> >> for dentin bonding?
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 01 Apr 2004 11:34 GMT
This question was in response to someone who wrote the dentin bonding
was higher than the enamel bonding. I still believe this to be
incorrect. Do you agree? It has clinical significance in how we place
various composites ......

JOEL

>Did you happen to notice that the data that I was quoting came
>from Gordon and CRA?  Or are you saying they don't know how to
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>> >> Steve Fawks,,,,,,,, isn't enamel bonding supposed to be higher than
>> >> for dentin bonding?
Steven Fawks DDS - 02 Apr 2004 05:40 GMT
Back a few posts, I presented recent CRA data that had Clearfil SE Bond
with higher dentin numbers (48?) than enamel (28?) (pay attention <G>).  

I tested nothing, so I can't say for sure.

Fawks

> This question was in response to someone who wrote the dentin bonding
> was higher than the enamel bonding. I still believe this to be
> incorrect. Do you agree? It has clinical significance in how we place
> various composites ......
>
> JOEL
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 02 Apr 2004 12:26 GMT
Thanks,

JOEL

>Back a few posts, I presented recent CRA data that had Clearfil SE Bond
>with higher dentin numbers (48?) than enamel (28?) (pay attention <G>).  
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>
>> JOEL
StovePipe - 03 Apr 2004 04:45 GMT
> Back a few posts, I presented recent CRA data that had Clearfil SE Bond
> with higher dentin numbers (48?) than enamel (28?) (pay attention <G>).
>
> I tested nothing, so I can't say for sure.
>
> Fawks

If I was me, (and sometimes I am) I would still want to etch the ENAMEL
b/4 using a self etch bonding agent. I think our Operative Guru at the
University told us to do that in one of the Cont-Ed courses. He also
told us that it is doubly important to dry properly, which means using
the high-volume suction and not the air syringe. The dentin should be
moist but not shiny, and the enamel should not be totally frosty.

But then I could be totally wrong
Cheers
SP
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Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 03 Apr 2004 14:54 GMT
There are more than 50 products for bonding. CRA has an interesting
table that I have on one sheet of paper comparing MPa for various
products.

The more advanced products in terms of convenience often have lower
MPa however it sometimes makes little difference.

One of the more interesting ones is Pulpdent's Dentastic that has FIVE
bottles (yup five) and that is in addition to the etching!

However, it has various protocols for bonding to self-curing
composites as you might find in a core material.

The instruction booklet is around 70-80 pages and its confusing as
heck! Hence the product fell into disfavor. Its an old product as
well.

JOEL

>> Back a few posts, I presented recent CRA data that had Clearfil SE Bond
>> with higher dentin numbers (48?) than enamel (28?) (pay attention <G>).
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>Cheers
>SP
StovePipe - 03 Apr 2004 19:55 GMT
> The more advanced products in terms of convenience often have lower
> MPa however it sometimes makes little difference.

.... JME, any chance you could look at where SingleBond (3M) is on that
chart? I have neither CRA nor Dental Advisor nor Reality, so I can't
compare. Also, for a dual cure resin, what do they recommend?
Thanks
SP
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To reply: take out the TRASH...

Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 03 Apr 2004 22:43 GMT
Yup, I will do this in around three days ........ I have to go through
a big pile of papers .... I am looking for some other stuff on Sunday
or Monday, so I will pull this too!

JOEL

>> The more advanced products in terms of convenience often have lower
>> MPa however it sometimes makes little difference.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Thanks
>SP
StovePipe - 04 Apr 2004 04:48 GMT
> Yup, I will do this in around three days ........ I have to go through
> a big pile of papers .... I am looking for some other stuff on Sunday
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >Thanks
> >SP

Thanks: To keep up my end, if I hear anything at our dental congress at
the end of May that is really new, I'll post it...
Cheers :-)
SP
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Steven Fawks DDS - 04 Apr 2004 04:03 GMT
I'll try to remember to look that up for you next week.

Fawks

> .... JME, any chance you could look at where SingleBond (3M) is on that
> chart? I have neither CRA nor Dental Advisor nor Reality, so I can't
> compare. Also, for a dual cure resin, what do they recommend?
> Thanks
> SP
StovePipe - 04 Apr 2004 04:48 GMT
> I'll try to remember to look that up for you next week.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> > Thanks
> > SP

Thanks Steven: Like I said to JME, if I hear/see anything really new or
controversial at our dental congress at the end of May, I'll post it
here.
Cheers :-)
SP

Signature

To reply: take out the TRASH...

Steven Fawks - 04 Apr 2004 15:01 GMT
Of the tested systems, Optibond Solo Plus (the best scoring total etch
system tested) had slightly better numbers than Clearfil SE Bond
(54,+or-6.9 vs 43.7,+or-3.6 for dentin and 29.1+or-7.1 vs 28.5+or-5.3
for enamel).

SE Bond also had microleakage scores on par with total etch systems
(Most SE systems did not fair as well).

I still use a lot of total etch bonding, but on the cases where I really
don't want to have to rinse etchant (a major time for field
contamination without a rubber dam *for me*) or on really deep
restorations, SE Bond is my choice.

YMMD,
Fawks

SingleBond was not tested in this research.

> > The more advanced products in terms of convenience often have lower
> > MPa however it sometimes makes little difference.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> --
> To reply: take out the TRASH...
StovePipe - 04 Apr 2004 15:57 GMT
> Of the tested systems, Optibond Solo Plus (the best scoring total etch
> system tested) had slightly better numbers than Clearfil SE Bond
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> SingleBond was not tested in this research.

Thank you Steven, I tend to use SE bond on kids (faster) and in lesions
where there is a lot of dentin exposed. I DO etch the enamel for about
10 secs first.

Again, if I can get to the dental congress in May and ask for
Christiansen's comments, I'll post them.
Cheers
:-)
SP

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To reply: take out the TRASH...

Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 04 Apr 2004 17:17 GMT
Wow. This supports your previous values that are higher for dentin
than for enamel ........

DEVELOPING ......

JOEL

>Of the tested systems, Optibond Solo Plus (the best scoring total etch
>system tested) had slightly better numbers than Clearfil SE Bond
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>> --
>> To reply: take out the TRASH...
Steven Fawks - 04 Apr 2004 15:08 GMT
This is the main reason that I choose to us an SE product in the first
place.  In these cases I do not want to have to rinse off etchant and
redry the prep. (swallowing reflex, tongue movements, salivary gland
stimulation, gagging...all leading to potential contamination of the prep)

JMHO,
Fawks

> If I was me, (and sometimes I am) I would still want to etch the ENAMEL
> b/4 using a self etch bonding agent.
> Cheers
> SP
Dr Steve - 05 Apr 2004 18:57 GMT
Remoisten the dentin (after drying) with Hemoseal for a huge increase in
bonding strength.

ps I always fill the entire preparation with "conditioner", and etch the
entire thing at one time, dentin and enamel.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
Let me know if you need my email address
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
> > Back a few posts, I presented recent CRA data that had Clearfil SE Bond
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Cheers
> SP
W_B - 05 Apr 2004 22:10 GMT
>Remoisten the dentin (after drying) with Hemoseal for a huge increase in
>bonding strength.
>
>ps I always fill the entire preparation with "conditioner", and etch the
>entire thing at one time, dentin and enamel.

Me too.
--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 07 Apr 2004 03:25 GMT
> Remoisten the dentin (after drying) with Hemoseal for a huge increase in
> bonding strength.
>
> ps I always fill the entire preparation with "conditioner", and etch the
> entire thing at one time, dentin and enamel.
I'll get back to you on this...
Thanks
SP

Signature

To reply: take out the TRASH...

W_B - 07 Apr 2004 04:37 GMT
>> Remoisten the dentin (after drying) with Hemoseal for a huge increase in
>> bonding strength.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Thanks
>SP

Have seen this 'in person', Dr. SM's technic is quite good.

--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Steven Fawks - 07 Apr 2004 14:02 GMT
I'm not trying to be a pain, but what research backs up the claim of
"huge increase in bonding strength".  What numbers with what bonding resins?

A quote from a lecture and "it works for me" might not convince me.

Fawks

> >> Remoisten the dentin (after drying) with Hemoseal for a huge increase in
> >> bonding strength.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> W_B
Dr Steve - 07 Apr 2004 14:53 GMT
Aw nuts!,,,,

I'll have to do some digging.

My personal thoughts are that the hemaseal increases bonding strength due to
re-wetting of the dentin, but will have to search to find figures.  Hang on.

Signature

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Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
Let me know if you need my email address
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
> I'm not trying to be a pain, but what research backs up the claim of
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> >
> > W_B
Steven Fawks DDS - 08 Apr 2004 04:39 GMT
I'm thinking this might depend upon what bonding system you are using
and if you are over-drying the dentin in the first place.  I doubt
that it is true across the board with all systems, but lay it on me.

:-)
Fawks

> Aw nuts!,,,,
>
> I'll have to do some digging.
>
> My personal thoughts are that the hemaseal increases bonding strength due to
> re-wetting of the dentin, but will have to search to find figures.  Hang on.
Amanda - 21 Mar 2004 18:29 GMT
> The best recommendation is just to crown the tooth over the amalgam.
Are you serious? I mean, instead of post, once can just use amalgam?

> Once the amalgam is sealed under a crown, it won't contribute to any
> imaginary amalgam poisoning.

Does that mean to have fillings with amalgam is dangerous?

> BTW, I haven't used amalgam myself since 1985, so don't think I'm
> defending its use for any blind selfish reasons.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> > Thanks,
> > Yev
W_B - 21 Mar 2004 19:11 GMT
>> Once the amalgam is sealed under a crown, it won't contribute to any
>> imaginary amalgam poisoning.
>
> Does that mean to have fillings with amalgam is dangerous?

Only according to Her Majesty, j/-\|\|Dre\/\/,
queen of imaginary Hg poisoning.

Line-dancing anyone ?

--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE for private e-mail
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 21 Mar 2004 20:46 GMT
>> The best recommendation is just to crown the tooth over the amalgam.
>Are you serious? I mean, instead of post, once can just use amalgam?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Does that mean to have fillings with amalgam is dangerous?

REPLY

Never is, never was ........ only Jan Drew thinks so.

By the way, is Mavis Bacon Kosher for use?

JOEL

>> BTW, I haven't used amalgam myself since 1985, so don't think I'm
>> defending its use for any blind selfish reasons.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> > Thanks,
>> > Yev
W_B - 21 Mar 2004 21:46 GMT
>> Does that mean to have fillings with amalgam is dangerous?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>By the way, is Mavis Bacon Kosher for use?

It is my understanding that bacon is never kosher
due to the lack of cud chewing.
--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE for private e-mail
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 21 Mar 2004 21:52 GMT
You sure? I saw Mavis Bacon chewing her cud during the typing
exercises ............

The program is interesting by the way!

>>> Does that mean to have fillings with amalgam is dangerous?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>It is my understanding that bacon is never kosher
>due to the lack of cud chewing.
W_B - 21 Mar 2004 22:13 GMT
Bring Mavis Bacon to the abattior and we shall dissect the object.

>You sure? I saw Mavis Bacon chewing her cud during the typing
>exercises ............
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>It is my understanding that bacon is never kosher
>>due to the lack of cud chewing.

--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE for private e-mail
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Steven Fawks - 22 Mar 2004 23:22 GMT
Posts do not strengthen teeth.  If (judgement call on each case) there
is enough retention of the restoration, it is often possible to crown
the 'whole thing'.

Fawks

> Steven Fawks

> > The best recommendation is just to crown the tooth over the amalgam.

> Are you serious? I mean, instead of post, once can just use amalgam?
Amanda - 21 Mar 2004 18:29 GMT
> The best recommendation is just to crown the tooth over the amalgam.
Are you serious? I mean, instead of post, once can just use amalgam?

> Once the amalgam is sealed under a crown, it won't contribute to any
> imaginary amalgam poisoning.

Does that mean to have fillings with amalgam is dangerous?

> BTW, I haven't used amalgam myself since 1985, so don't think I'm
> defending its use for any blind selfish reasons.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> > Thanks,
> > Yev
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 21 Mar 2004 20:47 GMT
>> The best recommendation is just to crown the tooth over the amalgam.
>Are you serious? I mean, instead of post, once can just use amalgam?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Does that mean to have fillings with amalgam is dangerous?

Nope, not unless you eat tuna with loads of amalgams in theirt teeth
........

>> BTW, I haven't used amalgam myself since 1985, so don't think I'm
>> defending its use for any blind selfish reasons.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> > Thanks,
>> > Yev
Peter Bowditch - 23 Mar 2004 04:31 GMT
>> The best recommendation is just to crown the tooth over the amalgam.
>Are you serious? I mean, instead of post, once can just use amalgam?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Does that mean to have fillings with amalgam is dangerous?

Did you see the word "imaginary"?

>> BTW, I haven't used amalgam myself since 1985, so don't think I'm
>> defending its use for any blind selfish reasons.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> > Thanks,
>> > Yev

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light          http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
and The New Improved Quintessence of the Loon with added Vitamins and C-Q10 http://www.ratbags.com/loon
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Jan - 23 Mar 2004 05:41 GMT
>Subject: Re: Removal of amalgam buildup
>From: Peter Bowditch myfirstname@ratbags.com
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>Did you see the word "imaginary"?

YES, it is a REPEATED LIE!!!

http://www.vimy-dentistry.com/gltoc.htm#_Toc497374703

Jan

<snip ratbags spam
Clinton C Zimmerman - 24 Mar 2004 03:46 GMT
> The best recommendation is just to crown the tooth over the amalgam.
> Once the amalgam is sealed under a crown, it won't contribute to any
> imaginary amalgam poisoning.

Wrong. You can't "seal off amalgam" which produces mercury in liquid
and vapor form in substatial amounts, by putting a crown over it.
Mercury moves through the tooth itself to the root gums and jawbone
and the vapor/liquid will easily pass through any microscopic openings
in any seal, assuming the seal itself can contain mercury. Remember
mercury vapor easily passes through
a rubber dam. You'd have to take the amalgam and completely entomb it
some kind of airtight mercury resistant sealant to prevent leakage.
Amalgam equals mercury exposure and keeping it is always a bad idea.
Additionally if gold is in the vicinity or used as a crown disaster
could strike due to galvanism.

Here is an interesting paper on amalgam and sealants

The paper by JP Dewald et al, Baylor College of Dentistry;
Journal of Dentistry 1992; 20: 121-127
"Evaluation of the interactions between amalgam, cement and gold
castings"

"If you read the full paper, you will learn that even though the crown
and
amalgam metals did not directly touch physically, there was corrosion
in
the amalgam core even in the controls that sat dry at room temperature
on
the shelf.  The experimental groups washed with electrolytic solution,
pH
and temperature cycled to simulate conditions of the human mouth,
produced
far worse corrosion -- even though the bonding agents in all specimens
were
meticulously applied to keep the metals completely seperated at all
times."
W_B - 24 Mar 2004 04:17 GMT
>Wrong. You can't "seal off amalgam" which produces mercury in liquid
>and vapor form in substatial amounts, by putting a crown over it.

Hogwash.
As is the rest of your <snipped> drivel
--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE for private e-mail
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Jan - 24 Mar 2004 08:18 GMT
>Subject: Re: Removal of amalgam buildup
>From: W_B no_one@nowhere.net
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Hogwash.

Denial supreme.

Mercury moves through the tooth itself to the root gums and jawbone
and the vapor/liquid will easily pass through any microscopic openings
in any seal, assuming the seal itself can contain mercury. Remember
mercury vapor easily passes through
a rubber dam. You'd have to take the amalgam and completely entomb it
some kind of airtight mercury resistant sealant to prevent leakage.
Amalgam equals mercury exposure and keeping it is always a bad idea.
Additionally if gold is in the vicinity or used as a crown disaster
could strike due to galvanism.

Here is an interesting paper on amalgam and sealants

The paper by JP Dewald et al, Baylor College of Dentistry;
Journal of Dentistry 1992; 20: 121-127
"Evaluation of the interactions between amalgam, cement and gold
castings"

"If you read the full paper, you will learn that even though the crown
and
amalgam metals did not directly touch physically, there was corrosion
in
the amalgam core even in the controls that sat dry at room temperature
on
the shelf.  The experimental groups washed with electrolytic solution,
pH
and temperature cycled to simulate conditions of the human mouth,
produced
far worse corrosion -- even though the bonding agents in all specimens
were
meticulously applied to keep the metals completely seperated at all
times."
Dr Steve - 24 Mar 2004 13:39 GMT
Do you have the full paper Jan?  I would love to go over it with you.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
Let me know if you need my email address
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

> >Subject: Re: Removal of amalgam buildup
> >From: W_B no_one@nowhere.net
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> meticulously applied to keep the metals completely seperated at all
> times."
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 24 Mar 2004 13:55 GMT
>Do you have the full paper Jan?  I would love to go over it with you.

Go over it with Jan, toss it at Jan ,,,,,,,, all the same.
W_B - 24 Mar 2004 16:08 GMT
>Do you have the full paper Jan?  I would love to go over it with you.

Res ipsa loquitor
--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE for private e-mail
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Steven Fawks - 24 Mar 2004 16:30 GMT
I think it's the 'black ooze of stupidity' that can't be kept out of newsgroups.

;-(
Fawks

> Do you have the full paper J**?  I would love to go over it with you.
>
> --
> ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
> Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Jan - 24 Mar 2004 18:18 GMT
>Subject: Re: Removal of amalgam buildup
>From: "Dr Steve" nospam@home.net
>Date: 3/24/2004 4:39 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <okf8c.15435$t16.8713004@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com>
>
>Do you have the full paper Jan?  I would love to go over it with you.

As a dentist you should know about mercury vapors from amalgams.

I suggest you go over it with Dr. Boyd Haley, Dr Lars Friburg, Dr. Murray Vimy,
and read the book:

Mercury Poisoning from Dental Amalgam - A Hazard to the Human Brain
Patrick

Stortebecker, M.D., Ph.D.

I would love to see your discussion with them, as they are experts.

Perhaps the below would help you to get ready for your diiscussion??

http://tinyurl.com/4pta

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~berniew1/amalg6.html

http://www.lichtenberg.dk/mercury_vapour_in_the_oral_cavit.htm

Jan
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 24 Mar 2004 18:43 GMT
>>Subject: Re: Removal of amalgam buildup
>>From: "Dr Steve" nospam@home.net
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>As a dentist you should know about mercury vapors from amalgams.

REPLY

Jan there are none.

>I suggest you go over it with Dr. Boyd Haley, Dr Lars Friburg, Dr. Murray Vimy,
>and read the book:

Oh the testing salesmen?

>Mercury Poisoning from Dental Amalgam - A Hazard to the Human Brain
>Patrick
>
>Stortebecker, M.D., Ph.D.

Is he related to Dr. Semmelweiss?

>I would love to see your discussion with them, as they are experts.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Jan
Dr Steve - 24 Mar 2004 19:35 GMT
I wanted to participate in a meaningful discussion with you regarding this
issue.  I am not trying to change anyone's mind, just trying to facilitate
communication on whatever level it exists on.  So how about it?

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
Let me know if you need my email address
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

> >Subject: Re: Removal of amalgam buildup
> >From: "Dr Steve" nospam@home.net
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Jan
carabelli - 24 Mar 2004 20:15 GMT
> I wanted to participate in a meaningful discussion with you regarding this
> issue.  I am not trying to change anyone's mind, just trying to facilitate
> communication on whatever level it exists on.  So how about it?

You're assuming she actually reads with comprehension what she copies and
posts.  Thus the refusals.

carabelli
Dr Steve - 24 Mar 2004 23:36 GMT
Aw come one. we can give her a chance.  Perhaps she will have a nice
discussion on the topic.  We have to at least try.

Signature

~+--~+--~+--~+--~+--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
Let me know if you need my email address
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
> > I wanted to participate in a meaningful discussion with you regarding this
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> carabelli
carabelli - 25 Mar 2004 02:56 GMT
> Aw come one. we can give her a chance.  Perhaps she will have a nice
> discussion on the topic.  We have to at least try.

She has dismissed you at least once because she wants to play by her own
rules.  I wish she would, I promise to stay out of the discussion.

She won't though - the Empress has no clothes.

carabelli
Dr Steve - 25 Mar 2004 13:57 GMT
But, I have to try to be civil.  I am trying to open a new book here.

Signature

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Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan, USA
Let me know if you need my email address
....................................................

This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect
your health.
......................

>
> > Aw come one. we can give her a chance.  Perhaps she will have a nice
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> carabelli
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 25 Mar 2004 15:22 GMT
>But, I have to try to be civil.  I am trying to open a new book here.

Unfortunately, the new book is from an old library ........
W_B - 25 Mar 2004 14:40 GMT
> the Empress has no clothes.
>
>carabelli

Empress2 has no Eris ?
--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE for private e-mail
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Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 24 Mar 2004 13:54 GMT
>>Subject: Re: Removal of amalgam buildup
>>From: W_B no_one@nowhere.net
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Denial supreme.

REPLY

Jan be lyin'.

>Mercury moves through the tooth itself to the root gums and jawbone
>and the vapor/liquid will easily pass through any microscopic openings
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>meticulously applied to keep the metals completely seperated at all
>times."
Clinton C Zimmerman - 24 Mar 2004 20:37 GMT
> >Subject: Re: Removal of amalgam buildup
> >From: W_B no_one@nowhere.net
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Denial supreme.

Jan,

Yeah I was surprised to see that one myself, but that's what Dr. Fawks
had thought. Of course he makes a lot of good points about composites
and other things.

It's an important point to make because otherwise a dentist might
think
it is not important how an amalgam is mixed or how it corrodes if they
can seal it off. And what if they make the amalgam in some way for
convience such that the Hg concentration is higher on the nonexposed
side, figuring it will
be sealed in. Good Lord.
carabelli - 25 Mar 2004 05:52 GMT
> > >Subject: Re: Removal of amalgam buildup
> > >From: W_B no_one@nowhere.net
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> had thought. Of course he makes a lot of good points about composites
> and other things.

I'm not being a smartass - I reserve that for Jan.  Seriously -

How much mercury vapor escapes from a thermometer?  Check out what WB
suggested about bonding capabilities of current dental materials.

> It's an important point to make because otherwise a dentist might
> think
> it is not important how an amalgam is mixed

Nobody manually mixes and triturates amalgam anymore.

or how it corrodes if they
> can seal it off.

What initiates and sustains corrosion in a sealed environment?

And what if they make the amalgam in some way for
> convience such that the Hg concentration is higher on the nonexposed
> side,

I don't understand the *unexposed side*, perhaps you can explain.  If you
referring to the billions of miles of dentinal tubules - I have nothing to
back it up - but by the time that route would get to me I suspect we will
have had several Afro-American female presidents.

figuring it will
> be sealed in. Good Lord.

OK, presume that some sap would place a poorly triturated buildup that was
covered with a crown.  Even if an environment is imperfectly sealed how
would vapor pressure be affected to an extent that even a miniscule amount
would ever make its way to anywhere?  I will even assume some electrolytic
corrosion between the crown and buildup - corrosion will produce another
barrier for vaporization.  Even the worst crown I have ever seen comes
nowhere close to potential for Hg vaporization that  a convential amalgam
would have.

Just asking,

carabelli
Jan - 25 Mar 2004 08:01 GMT
>Subject: Re: Removal of amalgam buildup
>From: "carabelli" huerter@worldnet.att.net
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
>I'm not being a smartass - I reserve that for Jan.  Seriously -

Umm, I do believe that was a smartass reply.

>How much mercury vapor escapes from a thermometer?  

Irrelevant.

>Check out what WB
>suggested about bonding capabilities of current dental materials.

WB is in denial, don't expect the truth form him, or you.

Jan

> It's an important point to make because otherwise a dentist might
>> think
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
>carabelli
carabelli - 26 Mar 2004 00:48 GMT
> >Subject: Re: Removal of amalgam buildup
> >From: "carabelli" huerter@worldnet.att.net
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Umm, I do believe that was a smartass
reply...............................................

As you well know this post was not directed at you.

Wasn't that obvious when the topic went beyond your comprehension?  To quote
*you* sweetie  -  BUTT OUT.

carabelli
Jan - 26 Mar 2004 01:58 GMT
>Subject: Re: Removal of amalgam buildup
>From: "carabelli" huerter@att.net.not
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
>As you well know this post was not directed at you.

My name was used, who the reply was to is irrelevant.

>Wasn't that obvious when the topic went beyond your comprehension?

Insults are are reflections of your character.

>To quote
>*you* sweetie  -  BUTT OUT.
>
>carabelli

I think not, get over your control problem.

Jan
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 26 Mar 2004 12:47 GMT
Jan Drew and Clinton Zimnmerman know nothing about mercury fillings
...... the liquid ones .......

>>Subject: Re: Removal of amalgam buildup
>>From: "carabelli" huerter@att.net.not
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
>Jan
Happy Oyster - 26 Mar 2004 23:06 GMT
>Insults are are reflections of your character.

Says Jan Drew, who insults, lies, and forges. And who misleads people
by false claims and thusly persuades them to take life-endangering
risks on their health.

More about Jan Drew, the shame of the human race :

  http://www.geocities.com/naturopathicmafia/Quackery.html

Regards,

Aribert Deckers
Signature

                 Reklame mit wahrheitswidrigen Behauptungen

                  http://www.ariplex.com/ama/ama_wies.htm

Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 27 Mar 2004 00:39 GMT
It is noted that Jan Drew forgot it is always wrong to belittle
...........

>>Insults are are reflections of your character.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Aribert Deckers
Clinton C Zimmerman - 25 Mar 2004 16:46 GMT
> > > >>Wrong. You can't "seal off amalgam" which produces mercury in liquid
> > > >>and vapor form in substatial amounts, by putting a crown over it.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> How much mercury vapor escapes from a thermometer?  Check out what WB
> suggested about bonding capabilities of current dental materials.

But mercury in a thermometer is completely sealed. How much mercury
would
escapse in a year if you drilled half a dozen small pin holes in the
(glass) of
the thermometer. A new space age sealant applied to an amalgam post
only completely covers one side out of six.

> > It's an important point to make because otherwise a dentist might
> > think
> > it is not important how an amalgam is mixed
>
> Nobody manually mixes and triturates amalgam anymore.

Actually, in my case the problem was with a capsule or machine that
may have not been functioning properly causing it too incompletely
mix. Another problem is the high content of copper/palladium
in some of capsulated amalgam which makes it more unstable than the
traditional
silver/Hg.

>  or how it corrodes if they
> > can seal it off.
>
> What initiates and sustains corrosion in a sealed environment?

If amalgam is in direct contact with the tooth it is not sealed off.
Oxygen and blood must easily be getting to the tooth or else it would
die.
Oxygen Corrosion may not be the primary mechanism of deteroration,
eithr
It is not oncommon for acidic bacteria to build up on the
top surface of amalgam and it is always surrounded by saliva.
What happens to the hull of a boat underwater if it is near
a dissimilar metal object?

>  And what if they make the amalgam in some way for
> > convience such that the Hg concentration is higher on the nonexposed
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> referring to the billions of miles of dentinal tubules - I have nothing to
> back it up - but by the time that route would

And you would expect an antiboitic to work in a couple hours!

> have had several Afro-American female presidents.

I nominate Diane Watson.

Actually I meant that the side of the amalgam embeddedd in the
tooth and not exposed to air may have a higher concentration
of Hg. Haven't you ever heard of dentists increasing the hg %
to make the amalgam more workable? The directions for one amalgam
material say, compress the amalgam and then carve off the top of
the amalgam to remove excess mercury.

>  figuring it will
> > be sealed in. Good Lord.
>
> OK, presume that some sap would place a poorly triturated buildup that was
> covered with a crown.

It happens, in fact in my case the ex-assistant even told me that
years ago the trituration machine was producing some mixtures that had
to
be thrown out because they weren't taking.  

Even if an environment is imperfectly sealed how
> would vapor pressure be affected to an extent that even a miniscule amount

I'm not sure what you mean. Air is not required for a vapor to have a
pressure.
There is always a small space between the amalgam and the tooth,
plenty of
room for hg atoms (which are very small) to leave the filling in
whatever phase. The only question to answer is what happens to mercury
once it
gets into the tooth saliva or tooth bone.

Also, keep in mind that even underwater amalgam is still going to give
off mercury.

> would ever make its way to anywhere?

Again, assuming that the amalgam post extends into the tooth bone and
has not had sealant applied to all six sides, are you saying that the
tooth bone is an ideal mercury containment mechanism. Should mercury
be transported in boxes made of bone?

I will even assume some electrolytic
> corrosion between the crown and buildup - corrosion will produce another
> barrier for vaporization.  Even the worst crown I have ever seen comes
> nowhere close to potential for Hg vaporization that  a convential amalgam
> would have.

What do you mean by potential. Are you saying you have seen more
corrosion
on convential amalgam than amalgam posts?

Isn't it true that conventional amalgam is supposed to develop an
oxide
layer to prevent corrsion in air. How does half the mercury leave the
filling in 20 years?

Also, see the paper in the previous thread where it was shown that
there
is always degradation in the amalgam core.


By the way, these are all good questions to ask and I am not an
expert an electrochemistry or corrosion so anyone can feel free
to comment at any time.

> Just asking,
>
> carabelli
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 25 Mar 2004 18:48 GMT
Mercury in a glass thermomemter KILLS!

Even being in the same room can cause peripheral neuropathy which can
lead to a loss of Line Dancing .......

>But mercury in a thermometer is completely sealed. How much mercury
>would
>escapse in a year if you drilled half a dozen small pin holes in the
>(glass) of
>the thermometer. A new space age sealant applied to an amalgam post
>only completely covers one side out of six.
carabelli - 26 Mar 2004 00:45 GMT
My response was written with respect to an amalgam build-up with a crown
cemented over it.

I don't have time today to respond with adequacy.  Maybe this weekend.

carabelli
Clinton C Zimmerman - 24 Mar 2004 19:58 GMT
> >Wrong. You can't "seal off amalgam" which produces mercury in liquid
> >and vapor form in substatial amounts, by putting a crown over it.
>
> Hogwash.
> As is the rest of your <snipped> drivel

And as usual you can't give one scientific reason why.
I doubt your brain is capable of it.
W_B - 24 Mar 2004 20:02 GMT
>> >Wrong. You can't "seal off amalgam" which produces mercury in liquid
>> >and vapor form in substatial amounts, by putting a crown over it.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>And as usual you can't give one scientific reason why.
>I doubt your brain is capable of it.

Just one ?
OK

With the newer glassionomer cementation materials
and the increased ability to actually bond crowns
to the tooth structure, a hermitic seal is created.
No air, no vapor.
--

W_B

Take out the G'RBAGE for private e-mail
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 24 Mar 2004 06:17 GMT
Clinton, you know absolutely nothing about dentistry!

JOEL

>> The best recommendation is just to crown the tooth over the amalgam.
>> Once the amalgam is sealed under a crown, it won't contribute to any
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>meticulously applied to keep the metals completely seperated at all
>times."
Yev - 25 Mar 2004 04:42 GMT
> > The best recommendation is just to crown the tooth over the amalgam.
> > Once the amalgam is sealed under a crown, it won't contribute to any
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> meticulously applied to keep the metals completely seperated at all
> times."

I agree that the crown won't fully prevent the leakage.  The question
is, though, how that smaller leakage compares to the regular amalgam
leakage through the surface.  I would assume that mercury would leak
from the surface in much greater extent than from the insides of the
tooth.  If the crown could reduce the leakage below the normal
environmental levels for mercury, maybe i could live with that.  I
like eating fish anyway.

Yev
Happy Oyster - 26 Mar 2004 23:06 GMT
>I like eating fish anyway.

Dear Mr. Yev,

Then you should seek fish from areas not contaminated - and do not eat
seafish. In the USA the situation seems to be worse than in Europe.

Regards,

Aribert Deckers
Signature

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Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. - 27 Mar 2004 00:40 GMT
>>I like eating fish anyway.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Aribert Deckers

True, and avoid pickled herring for temporary filling material
..........
athena - 21 Mar 2004 18:38 GMT