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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / January 2005

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Specific questions re: posterior crossbite and braces

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Susan - 22 Feb 2004 05:30 GMT
Hi. I am posting this in the hope that someone can help me determine
if I am on the right track with regard to my daughter's
dental/orthodontic problems.

I have a 9-year-old daughter who has a bilateral posterior crossbite
due to skeletal reasons/narrow upper jaw. (The crossbite is not
horrible -- the back teeth are just a little inside the lower teeth.
There is no open bite, etc.) In addition, she has mild crowding of the
upper teeth, overjet and overbite.

The orthodontist wants to do a two-phase treatment. The first phase is
a palatal expander, with braces on the four upper front teeth, and
braces on the four lower front teeth. After 9-18 months of that, she
will need to wear retainers pretty much around the clock to hold the
teeth's position. Then, when her permanent teeth come in, she will
more than likely need braces on all of her teeth, followed by more
retainers.

My questions are:

1) Is there some skeletal/jaw reason why she would need braces with
her expander? Will the expander not work properly without the braces?
I do understand the need for an expander with her crossbite, but I
haven't been able to get a satisfactory answer as to why the braces
would also be needed at this time. (I was basically told that we
'might as well fix those problems while we're in there' -- which I
take to mean the overcrowding?)

2) As a follow-up to the above question, would I be doing my daughter
any harm by insisting that she just have the expander at this time,
and braces when all her permanent teeth are in? (I'm assuming that the
expander will relieve some of her overcrowding on the top teeth?)

3) If she just has the expander, does she still need retainers when
the expander comes off? (I thought the retainers were to hold the
teeth's position, not the jawbone's position?)

My goal with her treatment is to do the minimum amount in terms of how
long she has to have stuff in her mouth, and yet still have
functional, working jaws and teeth. This has nothing to do with the
cost of the treatment, but everything to do with the kind of kid she
is. At this age and with her maturity level (younger than 9), she
won't keep her braces and teeth clean -- in fact, she could care less
if she were to smile at someone and some sticky thing were hanging off
her braces. She doesn't care about things like that yet. However, in a
few more years, I think she will want to take better care of herself
and will be able to do so.

Does anyone have any help or guidance they would be willing to share
with me regarding this? It's tough when it comes to your kids, and I
want to do the right thing. But I'm not quite sure what that is at
this point.

Thanks.

Susan
Dr. Steve - 22 Feb 2004 18:28 GMT
Would you also be questioning the materials and methods employed by the
Heart Surgeon if she was having a patent ductus arteriosis closed?

Signature

`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan   USA
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
.

> Hi. I am posting this in the hope that someone can help me determine
> if I am on the right track with regard to my daughter's
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
> Susan
Florida Hygienist - 22 Feb 2004 19:41 GMT
In hindsight, do you think Sabra should have questioned the materials and
methods employed by her surgeon?  BTW, anyone seen the recent article in
Good Housekeeping concerning recalled implants (of all types)?

> Would you also be questioning the materials and methods employed by the
> Heart Surgeon if she was having a patent ductus arteriosis closed?
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> >
> > Susan
The Webby - 22 Feb 2004 19:49 GMT
Wait a second... I know the question went to Dr. Steve but I want to
make sure that the question is fairly worded.

Which materials used in which surgeries?

TW

> In hindsight, do you think Sabra should have questioned the materials and
> methods employed by her surgeon?  BTW, anyone seen the recent article in
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> > >
> > > Susan

Signature

--
Sabra Broock <sabrabroock@earthlink.net

Florida Hygienist - 22 Feb 2004 19:59 GMT
The original question is referring to orthodontics.  So, is comparing a
heart surgery to orthodontics fair?  Is comparing heart surgery to TMJ
surgery fair?  I don't think there should be a problem questioning any
professional's opinion when health and a great deal of money are involved.

> Wait a second... I know the question went to Dr. Steve but I want to
> make sure that the question is fairly worded.
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> > > >
> > > > Susan
The Webby - 22 Feb 2004 20:10 GMT
But you didn't clarify the question about materials and surgeries.

BTW, the last TMJ surgery I had was as dangerous as proabably any
surgery.  So I don't think it makes any sense to compare "heart surgery
to TMJ surgery" without specifics.  

TW

> The original question is referring to orthodontics.  So, is comparing a
> heart surgery to orthodontics fair?  Is comparing heart surgery to TMJ
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
> > > > >
> > > > > Susan

Signature

--
Sabra Broock <sabrabroock@earthlink.net

Florida Hygienist - 22 Feb 2004 20:37 GMT
Steve made the comparison between orthodontics and heart surgery first,
without specifics.  Is ortho as dangerous as heart surgery?  Usually not.
I'm gone for the day, so discuss this with yourself as usual.

> But you didn't clarify the question about materials and surgeries.
>
[quoted text clipped - 90 lines]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Susan
The Webby - 22 Feb 2004 22:54 GMT
Discuss this with myself as usual???  Sheesh.  What did I do now???
I think "Florida Hygienist" is trying to suggest that I shouldn't have
needed to ask (I don't think patients should need to ask) ... but then
since I'm just going to be discussing this with myself, I guess there's
no point.

TW

> Steve made the comparison between orthodontics and heart surgery first,
> without specifics.  Is ortho as dangerous as heart surgery?  Usually not.
[quoted text clipped - 127 lines]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Susan

Signature

--
Sabra Broock <sabrabroock@earthlink.net

The Webby - 22 Feb 2004 23:26 GMT
One final reply to the thread:

"Florida Hygienist",

1.  Do you think that I did or did not discuss (with the use of
questions) the materials and methods that were to be used by all of my
surgeons over the years?

2.  Do you think I should have done that?

3.  Do you think I should have accepted the word of all those involved
as being truthful to the best of their knowlege?

4.  Do you think I should have doubted their honesty?

5.  What do you know about TMJ implant surgeries done in the USA during
the past twenty-five (25) years or so???

6.  What do you know about the total joint replacement prostheses that I
am using?

7.  If these joints fail to meet my needs in the future, what
choices/options do you think I deserve, as a human being?

Webby (aka Sabra)

> Discuss this with myself as usual???  Sheesh.  What did I do now???
> I think "Florida Hygienist" is trying to suggest that I shouldn't have
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> > > > the
> > > > > > > Heart Surgeon if she was having a patent ductus arteriosis closed?

Signature

--
Sabra Broock <sabrabroock@earthlink.net

Florida Hygienist - 23 Feb 2004 02:01 GMT
I"m home now, so I will try to explain what I was saying, since it seems as
though you missed my point.  I was not at all trying to say that you
shouldn't have needed to ask... in fact quite the opposite.

I understood Steve to be saying to the person asking questions, that she
shouldn't be questioning the orthodontists recommendations, because if it
were a "lifesaving" procedure, who is she to question the cardiologist's
recommendations??  I could be wrong, but that's what I got out of it.  I was
suggesting that we should always question, question, and question some more
so that we understand exactly what, when, why, and how ANY medical procedure
should be done, whether it's life-threatening or not.  I don't want to (and
didn't want to in the first place, because you've stated many times the
facts and implication of your procedure) get into the specifics, but I have
gathered from your writings that maybe if you had questioned the doctor
more, gotten more information about the implants, etc, etc, that maybe you
wouldn't be where you are today?  That may not be the case, and I may be off
base here, but it's just something I have derived from your posts.

I definitely believe that, as a patient (and a parent of "patients" at
times) that we need to ask.  We need to ask anything that we don't
understand.   10 different doctors can give you 10 different descriptions of
the exact same procedure.  Also, 10 different doctors can give you 10 (or
even more) different treatment options.   So, why does one doc thing one
treatment option is better and another thinks it is not?  What are we as
consumers/patients to do?  We have to make the best choice based on the
information we are given.  If we feel, as this mother apparently did, that
we need more information to make OUR decision (because of course, it is OUR
decision, not the docs in the end), then we need to ask questions to get
that information.  So, I don't care if the Surgeon General himself tells me
that I need a heart transplant, if I have questions, then it is not
unreasonable for me to have those questions answered.  If I do not believe
that I need a heart transplant, I have my right to get a second opinion, and
*question* this authority.

So, as I said, it makes no difference what materials are to be used in a
hypothetical surgery.  It only makes a difference what we understand will be
done to our bodies during that surgery.  (Of course it makes sense in a
"real" surgery to know and understand the materials used, however, I think
Steve was using the hypothetical heart surgery assuming that all materials
have been proven safe and effective.)
Joel M. Eichen D.D.S. - 23 Feb 2004 02:49 GMT
We agree with one possible exception.. You wrote

10 different doctors can give you 10 different descriptions of
the exact same procedure.  Also, 10 different doctors can give you 10
(or even more) different treatment options.

TRY

10 different doctors can give you fifty different descriptions of
the exact same procedure.  Also, 10 different doctors can give you
fifty one (or even more) different treatment options.

Depending on whether you have g-o-o-o-ooo-o-oooo-od insurance.

Joking about the last line, of course. All you need is _ _ insurance!

JOEL

>I"m home now, so I will try to explain what I was saying, since it seems as
>though you missed my point.  I was not at all trying to say that you
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>Steve was using the hypothetical heart surgery assuming that all materials
>have been proven safe and effective.)

Signature

Joel M. Eichen, .
Philadelphia PA

DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS:

*********

Dental health-related material
is provided for information purposes
only and does not necessarily
represent endorsement by or an official
position of the SciMedDentistry gang
or any other official agency either
actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso.

Advice on the treatment or care
of an individual patient should
be obtained through consultation
with a dentist who has examined
that patient or is familiar with
that patient's dental history.

STANDARD DISCLAIMER

The Webby - 23 Feb 2004 03:27 GMT
1.  The cause of *my* bilateral degenerative joint disease of the TMJs
is the direct result of a *bothched* orthognathic surgery of the
mandible performed twenty-one (21) years ago in 1983.

2.  The first TMJ surgery I had was in 1984 and it was the second
surgical attempt to correct some of the conditions I was left to suffer
as a result of the other surgeon's failure and dishonesty.  The first
reconstructive effort involved cutting out bone fragments that had fused
my mandible to my cheekbone (zygomatic arch) and left me with a
significant loss of muscle integrity after 14 months of disuse and
surgical scaring.  Anyway, ....

3.  During that first bilateral TMJ surgery, a material known as
Silastic was placed into the joints after the degenerative tissues of
the ankylosed joints was excised away from the cranium where the
condylar heads were fused.

4.  The material that was to be used was to be chosen in the operating
room according to the surgeon's opinion as to the better fit.  The
alternative material (second choice) was that of "Proplast" which at the
time was the new kid on the street.

A few years later after more ankylosis of the joints, a decision was
made to use a partial joint replacement for both joints that would "line
the glenoid fossoe" with metal in hopes that the bone would not grow and
fuse to the skull again.  At that point in time, I was aware that the
material Proplast was a source of trouble and I did NOT want to be part
of that population.  My surgeon (someone closer to my home) took over my
case and he knew that I didn't want any Proplast implanted ... so he
told me what he apparently wanted me to know:  He said that even though
Vitek made the glenoid fossa, it was actually lined with Silastic on the
portion that would rest against the skull, and the metal was on the side
that was inside the joint where the condyle (what was left of them)
articulated (not that mine ever really articulated either).

Well ... I asked.  I was told.  I heard.  The glenoid fossae failed
miserably ... leaving me again in horribly unbearable pain.  They were
removed at a later point and the surgeon described them as having been
shredded apart by the bone in the joints.  The only reason the bone was
moving was because of the use of continuous passive motion exercise and
other very, very physically aggresive stretching techniques that never
worked but only aggravated the heterotopic bone formation.

Looking again to the future, the skull was eroded with at least one hole
in it from the Proplast that pressed against it for however long it had
been... so "hole in my head" ... and no mandibular function ...

You know what ... this story is so long and so horrible that I really
can't do it justice.  I went about it as I have only to point out that
if you (or anyone else) has an idea that I didn't ask enough questions
about materials and methods of surgery ... you simply have absolutely no
idea about anything that went on in my life.  

Ask anyone who has read "The TMJ Iatroepidemic" if I asked enough
questions ... believe me, I learned how to ask more questions than
anyone wants to be asked.  Until you know enough to ask high quality
questions, you will not receive high quality answers.  

As for my current joint materials, they had not received FDA approval at
the time of implantation.  My insurance company covered the surgery (at
whatever rate they covered it at and we picked up what they didn't) as a
"humanitarian procedure" because without it, I had a very high risk of
death.  There are people out there who would do anything to see that
total joint replacements for the TMJ are not available (on the market).  
The same company that made mine is now called TMJ Concepts and their
joints are FDA approved.  www.tmjconcepts.com

Webby

> I"m home now, so I will try to explain what I was saying, since it seems as
> though you missed my point.  I was not at all trying to say that you
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Steve was using the hypothetical heart surgery assuming that all materials
> have been proven safe and effective.)

Signature

--
Sabra Broock <sabrabroock@earthlink.net

The Webby - 23 Feb 2004 03:53 GMT
I do not believe it is the duty of a patient to be knowlegeable about
the materials a surgeon plans to use during the surgery.  I do believe
it is the duty of the doctor to explain to the patient, in terms that
the patient can understand, what will be done and how it will be
accomplished.  At that point, it is the patient's repsonsibility to ask
whatever questions he/she has and to have them answered satisfactorily.  

Why should the little old lady down the street need to know all about
the materials used in her artificial hip?  Because there have been
problems with materials over the years should not make it the
responsibility of a patient to find out whether what the "doctor" plans
to use is "okay"....'

This is what I believe Dr. Steve was referring to.  It's an imperfect
world.

TW

Florida Hygienist wrote (in part):

> > So, as I said, it makes no difference what materials are to be used in a
> > hypothetical surgery.  It only makes a difference what we understand will be
> > done to our bodies during that surgery.  (Of course it makes sense in a
> > "real" surgery to know and understand the materials used, however, I think
> > Steve was using the hypothetical heart surgery assuming that all materials
> > have been proven safe and effective.)

Signature

--
Sabra Broock <sabrabroock@earthlink.net

The Webby - 23 Feb 2004 18:37 GMT
This is mostly for "Florida Hygienist" but it's also for all readers, of
course:

My prostheses are made from titanium, cobalt-chrome, and polyethelene.  
There you have it... I have shared the list of ingedients with readers.  
Does that information actually mean ***anything*** to me??????  No.  It
does not.

As Dr. Steve wrote, given a particular problem, there is usually more
than one way to try to reach the goal of "improving the quality of life"
for the patient.  In my case, describing to "Florida Hygienist" how the
surgery was going to be done would likelyl mean nothing.  What mattered
to me was this:

With regards to each option offered, there must also be the option of
doing nothing.  And to that option, the following questions must also be
discussed.

1.  What are my problems?
2.  What could be done about the problems?
3.  What could not be done to address the problems?
3.  What are the risks involved?
4.  What are the reasonable expectations with regards to anticipated        
benefits?
5.  What expectations are unreasonable?

If one of the options included an implantable medical device, then it
would bed up to the surgeon to *tell me* about such device/s and then I
could ask what I knew enough to ask.  As far as asking about materials,
I think the questions on my mind would be this:

1.  What is the track record of the device?
2.  Why is this device a good or bad choice for me?
3.  Is this device FDA approved?
4.  If it is not approved, is there another that is?
5.  If another is approved, but it is not recommended for me, **why**?

The reason I would ask those questions is because I have experience with
defective implant material that was grandfathered-in as "FDA approved"
... so what does all this get a person?  In 1991, it was recommended and
agreed by me to undertake surgery that would involve the use of an
experimental total joint replacement with 2 and 1/2 years use in study
cases.  Yes....... I was willing to be one of those "study cases" and as
it has turned out, I am one of those with the longest standing success
with regards to the implants still being in place and in good condition.  
Success was never meant to be determined by my comfort or great change
in mandibular function.  Success was to be determined by this:  did the
implants stop the untreatable-recurring-chronic bony ankylosis of the
mandible to the cranium.  

So far... so good. Hope that helped.

The Webby

> I do not believe it is the duty of a patient to be knowlegeable about
> the materials a surgeon plans to use during the surgery.  I do believe
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> > > materials
> > > have been proven safe and effective.)

Signature

--
Sabra Broock <sabrabroock@earthlink.net

The Webby - 23 Feb 2004 18:40 GMT
Please forgive the typos.  It's a rushed morning.
TW

> This is mostly for "Florida Hygienist" but it's also for all readers, of
> course:
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
> > > > materials
> > > > have been proven safe and effective.)

Signature

--
Sabra Broock <sabrabroock@earthlink.net

William Berry - 21 Jan 2005 03:06 GMT
when I read your message, I immediately asked my wife if she wrote it.
Her story is nearly identical.  Two botched surgeries done in the same
years and a never ending nightmare of pain and a degeneration of life
quality.
Dr. Steve - 23 Feb 2004 04:00 GMT
No Toni, you mis-understood.  My point was that the OP had pretty much
decided that her Orthodontist's recommendations were not appropriate and
wanted us to support her idea of not following through with the suggested
treatment plan.  It is entirely her right to compromise the treatment plan
and do less than ideal.  However, her tone of speech suggested that she
could make the decision based on finances and convince rather than on
desired final outcome.  If you were having heart surgery, you would discuss
all the possibilities, but you would decide on the final result and take
whatever path you needed to get there.  My comparison was simply to give the
practitioner the freedom to choose a path to get to the final result.  If
you cannot afford it, or do not desire it, then you compromise.

Frankly, I was hoping for a direct response from the OP so as to get more
information from Her/him.  I may have misunderstood the OP.

Signature

`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan   USA
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
.

> I"m home now, so I will try to explain what I was saying, since it seems as
> though you missed my point.  I was not at all trying to say that you
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Steve was using the hypothetical heart surgery assuming that all materials
> have been proven safe and effective.)
Dr. Steve - 23 Feb 2004 03:54 GMT
Hey Toni,

Why the tough stance?  Sabra was being very civil.

Signature

`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan   USA
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
.

> Steve made the comparison between orthodontics and heart surgery first,
> without specifics.  Is ortho as dangerous as heart surgery?  Usually not.
[quoted text clipped - 127 lines]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Susan
Florida Hygienist - 25 Feb 2004 03:50 GMT
You're right, I tend to be on the offensive since past experiences caught me
offguard.  I apologize.

> Hey Toni,
>
[quoted text clipped - 145 lines]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Susan
Dr. Steve - 23 Feb 2004 03:52 GMT
I think it is very fair, since you cannot teach someone enough to be able to
figure out whether or not to have specific techniques and procedures
performed in less than a few years.

Signature

`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan   USA
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
.

> The original question is referring to orthodontics.  So, is comparing a
> heart surgery to orthodontics fair?  Is comparing heart surgery to TMJ
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
> > > > >
> > > > > Susan
Florida Hygienist - 25 Feb 2004 04:14 GMT
This is true, however, one can learn a lot when faced with a
life-threatning, expensive, painful, or medically complicated condition.  In
almost every situation, a patient (or parent/guardian of a patient) has to
make decisions based on the knowledge that doctors give them about their
condition and treatment.  Your earlier example was : "Would you also be
questioning the materials and methods employed by the Heart Surgeon if she
was having a patent ductus arteriosis closed?" .. and I'll tell you that I'm
not sure what that entails (sounds like closing a murmur, but i could be
wrong), but if I needed it, you better believe I would question everything
about it.

I have a friend whose gyn told her she needed a hysterectomy when she was
36.  She was upset about it, and didn't want to have it done, but did quite
a bit of research and found some sort of alternative of using one of her
abdominal muscles to support her prolapsed uterus.  Her gyn hadn't told her
of this option, and she had never heard of it before running across it
online.  She went to her surgeon with this info, and asked if she were a
good candidate for it.  He agreed, and the rest is history (or hystery.. oh
bad pun).  My point is, she could never gain enough info about the procedure
to actually perform it without going to medical school, but today's patients
are increasingly aware, informed, and able to make decisions about the right
treatment for them.

> I think it is very fair, since you cannot teach someone enough to be able to
> figure out whether or not to have specific techniques and procedures
[quoted text clipped - 103 lines]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Susan
WB - 25 Feb 2004 04:32 GMT
>He agreed, and the rest is history (or hystery.. oh
>bad pun).

I kinda liked *herstory*

;-]]
--

"I can dance on the head of a pin as well"
-Yoshimo
Florida Hygienist - 22 Feb 2004 19:55 GMT
If she is concerned, I would say get a 2nd opinion, then ask about the
concerns she has.  I have recently wondered why a fairly high-end
orthodontist in my area thought it necessary to put braces on an 8 y/o
patient of mine, keep them on for a year or so (cost to parents: $1,800
which they had to borrow from Grandma), then remove them and do "Phase II"
at about 12 or 13 (of course, another fee).  From what I could tell, there
seemed to only be mild mandibular crowding, and no cross-bites.  Of course,
I don't know if anything else is involved, but I wouldn't take my kid to
him.

> Would you also be questioning the materials and methods employed by the
> Heart Surgeon if she was having a patent ductus arteriosis closed?
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> >
> > Susan
Florida Hygienist - 22 Feb 2004 20:01 GMT
> patient of mine

... Ahem, excuse me, "Patient at my office."
Orthodmd - 23 Feb 2004 03:48 GMT
>Hi. I am posting this in the hope that someone can help me determine
>if I am on the right track with regard to my daughter's
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>'might as well fix those problems while we're in there' -- which I
>take to mean the overcrowding?)

there is generally no need to do braces now.  the important thing is to expand
when a child is young because it is "jaw movement."  I hardly ever worry about
teeth in this age group unless the patient or parent request it.  

>2) As a follow-up to the above question, would I be doing my daughter
>any harm by insisting that she just have the expander at this time,
>and braces when all her permanent teeth are in? (I'm assuming that the
>expander will relieve some of her overcrowding on the top teeth?)

without seeing the case it is hard to be sure but in general it would do her
not harm whatsoever.  it will also lesson the retention complexity.

>3) If she just has the expander, does she still need retainers when
>the expander comes off? (I thought the retainers were to hold the
>teeth's position, not the jawbone's position?)

The amount of retention appropriate after expansion is impossible to determine.
The research seems to say that you should leave an expander on for 4 to 6
months.  This is the time for new bone to grow after the bones are moved.  I
tell my parents that I want to retain it for one year and if asked I explain
that this is an arbitrary number...just something that I feel comfortable with.
On one extreme is little retention beyond 6 months.  I don't think that is
quite enough.  On the other is retain until ready for braces and that runs the
risk of making treatment seem like "forever."  So I take a middle ground and
opt for 12 months but I also explain that some patients (about 10 %) may need
additional expansion later.

>My goal with her treatment is to do the minimum amount in terms of how
>long she has to have stuff in her mouth, and yet still have
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>few more years, I think she will want to take better care of herself
>and will be able to do so.

You sound right on the money.  Do it your way and if the orthodontist can't
really justify his or her way then look for another office.  Also, ask about
what I call "fixed" retention.  I use what I call a "quad with no arms" but if
you said to the orthodontist that you wanted to use an "lingual arch for the
upper jaw" they would probably get the picture.

Good luck.
Charlie Ruff, DMD
Specialist in Orthodontics
Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics
Orthodmd - 25 Feb 2004 02:28 GMT
>>Hi. I am posting this in the hope that someone can help me determine
>>if I am on the right track with regard to my daughter's
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
>Specialist in Orthodontics
>Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics

gee I thought this was a pretty nice response.  I wonder why so few say thanks?

Charlie Ruff, DMD
Specialist in Orthodontics
Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics
WB - 25 Feb 2004 03:20 GMT
>gee I thought this was a pretty nice response.  I wonder why so few say thanks?
>
>Charlie Ruff, DMD

Just like in real life, eh ? <hehe>
--

"I can dance on the head of a pin as well"
-Yoshimo
carabelli - 25 Feb 2004 03:25 GMT
> >>Hi. I am posting this in the hope that someone can help me determine
> >>if I am on the right track with regard to my daughter's
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
>
> gee I thought this was a pretty nice response.  I wonder why so few say thanks?

It was a wonderful response, and also why it was the only one.  I have had
the same experience here.  Another hit and run I guess.  Advice is sometimes
only worth what you pay for it?

OTOH, I found time to quickly scan the JADA article on "evidence based
ortho" today.  Not bad, I had a little trouble with one part - forget
exactly what it was - the afternoon schedule turned into a Chinese firedrill
when everyone showed up that should have been there while I was reading it.
Any thoughts on it?

Dan

carabelli
Orthodmd - 25 Feb 2004 10:27 GMT
>> >>Hi. I am posting this in the hope that someone can help me determine
>> >>if I am on the right track with regard to my daughter's
[quoted text clipped - 107 lines]
>
>carabelli

I saw the artcile but haven't really looked at it.

The subject is talked about often at school as part of our teaching philosophy
so I may be somewhat familier with it.

Marc Ackerman is Jim's kid and Jim has always be a very cerebal contributor to
the ortho literature.

Charlie Ruff, DMD
Specialist in Orthodontics
Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics
Susan - 25 Feb 2004 18:18 GMT
Dr. Ruff, this WAS a very nice response! I just posted a response to
your original message, and in the time it took me to compose it and
post it, this message plus the rest of the messages after that
appeared on the thread. (It went from 19 messages in the thread before
I composed to 26 after I posted!) I am mortified -- I do appreciate
your advice so much, and wanted to wait until I had the second opinion
(which was yesterday) to respond. In trying to respond last night,
Google wouldn't let me post (said too many posts were coming from this
address, which doesn't make sense), so I tried again this morning.

Since I am new to groups, I guess the lesson learned is to respond
right away to thoughtful posts such as yours, and then follow up in
another post with any other questions or comments (such as after the
second opinion). I will know better for next time, but please do know
that your advice and time was not only appreciated but very helpful.

Best regards,
Susan

> >>Hi. I am posting this in the hope that someone can help me determine
> >>if I am on the right track with regard to my daughter's
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
> Specialist in Orthodontics
> Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics
WB - 25 Feb 2004 18:52 GMT
>Dr. Ruff, this WAS a very nice response!

Yep, Charlie is a prince among men.

:-]]
--
WB

"I can dance on the head of a pin as well"
-Yoshimo
Susan - 02 Mar 2004 06:32 GMT
> Dr. Ruff, this WAS a very nice response! I just posted a response to
> your original message, and in the time it took me to compose it and
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Best regards,
> Susan

Gee, I thought this was a pretty nice response. I wonder why so few
bother to respond. . .

> > >>Hi. I am posting this in the hope that someone can help me determine
> > >>if I am on the right track with regard to my daughter's
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
> > Specialist in Orthodontics
> > Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics
Susan - 25 Feb 2004 17:59 GMT
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my message. I very
much appreciate your insightful comments, and it has been a great help
in our situation.

A couple of things have happened since I posted my message. First, the
original orthodontist called to say he would be happy to do the palate
expander only (no braces) for 9-12 months, followed by a night-time
only retainer until her permanent teeth come in. (I had called to
cancel my next appointment with them, and when they asked why, I said
I was interested in correcting her crossbite only at this time, and
that didn't seem to be an option at their office. I guess it turned
out to be an option after all!)

We also have had a second opinion. This orthodontist also recommended
a palatal expander only, but said he would leave it in for about 3-4
months only. (He said kids don't like them, and the sooner they can
get out of it the better.) After that, nothing but watching, and if
the jaw looks like it is starting to grow together again, then he
would put in a fixed lingual arch for the upper jaw, as you had
mentioned. That would probably have to stay in until her permanent
teeth come in.

So I am happy for my daughter's sake that a lesser amount of treatment
seems possible at this stage. However, I'm still confused by the
differing opinions on the time needed for the expander, plus the
retention. I like the "middle ground" approach you had mentioned of
retaining for one year, and not having it be too short so that the
growth is not maintained, yet also not having it be so long that the
treatment feels like it is going on forever. Neither of the
orthodontists I have seen are taking this middle ground approach,
however, and I was wondering if you had opinion on either of the
suggested treatments (short time in expander with possible fixed
retention device vs. longer time in expander and removable retention
device) as far as meeting the goal of expanding and maintaining her
upper jaw.

Thank you again for all of your help with this.

Best regards,
Susan  

> >Hi. I am posting this in the hope that someone can help me determine
> >if I am on the right track with regard to my daughter's
[quoted text clipped - 72 lines]
> Specialist in Orthodontics
> Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics
 
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