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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / January 2007

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Cost of Invisalign

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Delux - 26 Jul 2003 20:20 GMT
Hello,

I have slightly crooked front teeth and was quoted abt. $5000 to straighten
them using the Invisalign system. According to my dentist it would take
anywhere between 14-18 months to get the desired result. Is this amount in
the ball park of what it should cost to do this? How much should some thing
like this cost? BTW I live in NYC so I assume that adds to the cost (?)

Thanks in Advance.
Orthodmd - 26 Jul 2003 22:31 GMT
>ello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>---=
>=---

seems well within the ball park.  the important thing to remember is that
anytime you do Invisalign the dentist has to pay Align Technologies around
$2000 for the lab work.  that obviously takes a big chuck out of the $5000.

my question if I was in your shoes, knowing what I know, is
1. how many cases has this dentist done with Invisalign?  there is a learning
curve
2. how will retention be managed.  all teeth move over the long term.  the only
satisfactory method of retneiton for an adult is fixed upper and fixed lower.
anything else would require a second opinion in my mind.
Charlie Ruff, DMD
Specialist in Orthodontics
Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics
Steven Bornfeld - 27 Jul 2003 02:54 GMT
>>ello,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Specialist in Orthodontics
> Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics

    Uh oh.  I'm on aligner #16 (out of 18).  I am concerned about
retention.  Even at this stage, if the aligner is out for a couple of
hours, they don't go back in passively.  My understanding is that their
retainer is a heavy-duty version of the last aligner.
    I currently have some pretty significant prematurities in protrusive,
which is perhaps complicated by an old R. condylar neck fracture
(therefore no translation).
    How do you accomplish retention on your adult invisalign cases?

Steve
Orthodmd - 27 Jul 2003 16:43 GMT
Orthodmd wrote:
>>ello,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> 2. how will retention be managed.  all teeth move over the long term.  the only
> satisfactory method of retneiton for an adult is fixed upper and fixed lower.

> anything else would require a second opinion in my mind.
> Charlie Ruff, DMD
> Specialist in Orthodontics
> Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics

    Uh oh.  I'm on aligner #16 (out of 18).  I am concerned about
retention.  Even at this stage, if the aligner is out for a couple of
hours, they don't go back in passively.  My understanding is that their
retainer is a heavy-duty version of the last aligner.
    I currently have some pretty significant prematurities in protrusive,
which is perhaps complicated by an old R. condylar neck fracture
(therefore no translation).
    How do you accomplish retention on your adult invisalign cases?

Steve

My protocol for retention is the same in Invisalign cases as it is in other
adult nonInvisalign cases.  Interestingly this is one of my favorite subjects
when I teach residents.  

The idea of removable retainers is dated technology all based on what was
available pre-Buonocore.  Hawley type retainers were used to move teeth prior
to Ed Angle and his development of the edgewise appliance.  After fixed braces
came into fashion, we as a profession continued to use Hawleys as retainers
because "salt and pepper" construction of retainers was all that was available.
As you both appreciate, a lot of what we do as dentists is due to what our
mentors did and it is carried over without much critical thought.

Then came Dr. Buonocore and his use of acid etch.  I graduated Tufts ortho in
1980 and even after that date, certain faculty including the chair were
emphasizing the importance of knowing how to fit bands properly and "there was
nothing better" than a fully banded appliance.  All students as recently as
1983 were required to treat two cases fully banded to graduate.  I was in
practice three years at that point and did not own upper or lower anterior
bands.  I was fully committed to acid etch.

When you ask older faculty what kind of retainers they use, they frequently say
either Hawleys or suckdowns.  Why not bonded (fixed)?  Answers are: "They come
off too frequently, patients may swallow them, you are wedded to that patient
for life, they have to be kept in recall forever, etc."

Bull!  It is merely an inability to integrate technology into their practices.
Cosmetic dentistry has fully used acid etch to change the face of restorative
dentistry.  Unfortunately, not all orthodontists have moved comparably in the
same direction at the same speed.

Thoughts for you and brother Mark:

1.    tooth movement after braces or Invisalign tends to be a geometric
reduction.  Think of a half life graft.  Most of the movement occurs during the
first thirty days and then less and less over time.  If you take out your
retainers/Aligners there will be substantial rebound in the first 30 days and
then less and less.
2.    any type of retainer worn faithfully for 30 days will substantially
reduce future movement.
3.    the best type of retainer is fixed although good use could be made of a
"suckdown" (see below).
4.    The ideal fixed retainer (assuming no severe initial rotations, no
extraction of an incisor and not initial spacing) would be one in which an 032
" round wire is carefully formed to the inside of the lower incisors and then
bonded to the canines only.  This is very hygienic and a the lower incisors can
be flossed by passing the floss under the wire only once.
5.    this technique is operator sensitive and there is a learning curve.
Obviously, moisture control if paramount.
6.    essentially, you hold the wire in place with floss or some use putty
(polyvinyl) or Mortite.  Etch the canines, dry and use a sealent (I like Ortho
Solo a Kerr product similar to a restorative product by Kerr with a similar
name?).  Use a very small amount of Revolution to hold the wire in place and
light cure.  This stabilizes the wire for the rest of the procedure
7.    Ideally, you can use modified Concise (modified by the addition of
sealent to make it flow a little.)  This is probably the strongest thing to do
but unavailable to most restorative guys without an investment in old
technology.  Alternatively, use a minimally flowable material with good
strength and durability.  Contour with burs to a smooth shape.
8.    If you want to do every tooth, use a more flexible wire like 021
Wildcat and follow the above guidelines.  The best wire to use and one that is
changing ortho for those that use it is from Reliance Orthodontics and is white
gold chain.  You bond it as above but the chain aspect of it gives enough play
that the teeth stay straight but the wire almost adapts itself and there is
less chance of accidental breakage.  (Can't remember the exact name Flextech
something or other
9.    If you want to use the suckdown removable type retainer, ask the
patient to wear that all the time for a week.  Then 16 hours/day for six weeks
then enough to keep the teeth straight.  During the initial six weeks or so I
want to strip the lower incisor contacts with a thin diamond wheel to reduce
the pressure on the teeth to move.  Successful treatment would be light
contacts and straight teeth after six months.
10.    the beauty of removable retention is that it makes the patient
responsible for retention.  If they skip a couple of days and the retainer
stops fitting, you should try to convince them that their teeth will return to
straight if they will just wear the removable retainer until it fits again.
This may hurt a little but it will work as a minipositioner and restraighten
the teeth
11.    Finally, the negative aspect of removable retention is that it makes
the patient responsible for retention.  Your success is in the patient's hands.
If the lower teeth move, the hygienist does not say to herself: "This patient
did not wear their retainer."  She says: "Crappy orthodontics."  I am unwilling
to have my reputation in the patient's control and I think fixed retention is
the max use of technology so I use all fixed retainers.
12.    Finally, finally.  I use fixed retention upper and lower on all adults
but only on some kids.  All kids get a fixed lower but only some get a fixed
upper.  The rest get suckdowns.  My friend has recently gone to fixed upper and
lower on everyone.  I will have to see how that works.  It is a great idea.  My
neice was treated on Long Island 10 years ago and the orthos that treated her
used fixed upper and lower retainers.  They told me that it just was easier in
their demographic area to take control away from the patients.

Charlie Ruff, DMD
Specialist in Orthodontics
Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics
Steven Bornfeld - 27 Jul 2003 20:13 GMT
> My protocol for retention is the same in Invisalign cases as it is in other
> adult nonInvisalign cases.  Interestingly this is one of my favorite subjects
[quoted text clipped - 90 lines]
> Specialist in Orthodontics
> Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics

    Thanks for the detailed answer.  Just 2 questions:
1) Is typical upper fixed retainer also canine to canine, bracketing
only the canines?
2) Do you ever grind to eliminate prematurities in excursions?

    This has been an eye-opening experience for both me and Mark.

Steve
charlie ruff - 30 Jul 2003 02:54 GMT
> > My protocol for retention is the same in Invisalign cases as it is in other
> > adult nonInvisalign cases.  Interestingly this is one of my favorite subjects
[quoted text clipped - 99 lines]
>
> Steve

Steve

the upper retainer would be ideally bonded to the front four.  Once
you go to the canines, there is a significant increase in breakage.
The way to do upper and lower retention is to bond on a lower 3-3 and
an upper 12/12.  Then let the posterior settle for 6 weeks and then do
an upper suckdown to be worn at night only.  The suckdown seems to
make a big difference in how much the upper retainer breaks.  I think
every grinds to some extent and distributing the load over a number of
teeth seems to protect the upper retainer.

Not being a Peter Dawson trained orthodontist, I would grind until the
teeth felt better and fit better and the prematurities are gone.

If you want to talk more about retention feel free to contact me.  It
is one of my particular areas of interest.

Charlie Ruff
Steven Bornfeld - 30 Jul 2003 03:01 GMT
> the upper retainer would be ideally bonded to the front four.  Once
> you go to the canines, there is a significant increase in breakage.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Charlie Ruff

    Thanks, Charlie.
    Incidentally, today put the penultimate set of aligners (#17 out of 18)
in.  I had worn the previous set longer than usual (about a month)
because Mark hadn't finished the interproximal reductions on the upper
arch when I started with them, and I thought perhaps the contacts were
influencing the relapse.
    They feel pretty lousy.  I think I'm a pretty compliant patient, but I
want to rip these suckers out.
    Oh well--just 4 or so more weeks and I'll be ready for retention.  I'll
be in touch.

Thanks,
Steve
Orthodmd - 30 Jul 2003 21:25 GMT
>They feel pretty lousy.  I think I'm a pretty compliant patient, but I
>want to rip these suckers out.
>    Oh well--just 4 or so more weeks and I'll be ready for retention.  I'll

>be in touch.
>
>Thanks,
>Steve

I think you re beginning to understand why most orthodontists are going more
and more to fixed appliances even for retention.  After 2-3 years in braces,
how many patients are willing to undertake full time retainer wear with two
pieces of plastic that don't really fit perfectly well.  I remember talking to
a colleague some years ago.  I asked him what kind of retainers he did for
adults.  He said he did upper and lower Hawley types.  Unbelievable!
Orthodontists seem to have this need to make things as difficult as they can
just to make a patient prove "they really want it."

The white gold chain if you are interested is called Ortho Flextech and is
available from Reliance Orthodontics (800 323 4348).  Paul Gange runs Reliance
and he is great if you have tech questions  His brother is an ortho I think

Charlie Ruff, DMD
Specialist in Orthodontics
Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics
Jeff Genecov - 02 Aug 2003 21:16 GMT
Charlie-

I've got a few ?'s for you as well....

Most of my patients finish with an OJ/OB relationship that won't allow bonded u
2x2's unless you impinge on the gingiva. What's your secret?

When I do have a bite relationship that allows it, I often get a midline
diastema space opening up after a while. If all 4 teeth are bonded, how does
that happen? Does the wire stretch? This has happened with stainless round &
square wire, braided wire, and wire that has has helices on the laterals for
retention and/or sandblasting the wire on the area of the terminal teeth. What
am I doing wrong?

I bought a practice 2 1/2 years ago in which the selling doctor used a lot of
bonded L 3X3's for retention. He did not bond on all six teeth, just the
cuspids. I had to debond many, many of these because the incisors shifted, and
we had to go to removable Hawleys because we could build in some adjustment to
realign the teeth. How could we have prevented this?

As to the hygenists, who do you charge when they pop off a bonded retainer
during a prophy, and what about the hygiene problems caused by those fixed
reatiners in the few :) patients who don't floss regularly?

Thanks for chewing this around a little...>Subject: Re: Cost of Invisalign
>Path: lobby!ngtf-m01.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
>Lines: 30
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>Specialist in Orthodontics
>Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics

Regards,

Jeff Genecov, DDS, MSD, FICD
Diplomate, American Board of Orthodontics
Orthodmd - 04 Aug 2003 03:05 GMT
>Most of my patients finish with an OJ/OB relationship that won't allow bonded
2x2's unless you impinge on the gingiva. What's your secret?

Who knows? :-)

I like to finish my cases with the upper incisors resting on the lower braces.
I start tx with the lower brackets adjusted to that the AW slot is at 4 mm from
the incisal edge.  I think this means that I aim to finish with 2 mm of
overbite (?)

If I place the wire just at the height of the papilla and make sure that the
wire to the laterals goes a little more gingival after it crosses the contact
point, I have very few problems.  I used to use gold plated wire (0215 I think)
ala Zachrisson but have switched to Ortho FlexTech by Reliance on the
recommendation of Dave Musich.

I have seen spaces return between central incisors and I have always attributed
this to either wire stretch or failure of the wire composite interface.  On the
other hand, if the space opening forces in the area of a closed diatema are
that strong, what would the patient have to do with a removable appliance to
keep the space closed.  Obviously, it would not be possible.

In adults, I don't always have as much clearance as I would like because they
all don't finish with only 2 mm of overbite.  I am not at all shy about shaving
the enamel of the lower incisors in this case if it means being able to do
fixed retention.

Finally, and I can't emphasize this enough,  after six weeks of settling all
patients get a suck down to be worn sleeping.  I feel this does a lot to
prevent the kinds of problems you are talking about and to prevent breakage of
the upper retainer.  Remember everyone grinds or clenches a little during sleep
and since there is a tendency for our bite opening effects to be undone during
retention, this cleching activities provide more than enough force to stretch
wires.

>I bought a practice 2 1/2 years ago in which the selling doctor used a lot of
>bonded L 3X3's for retention. He did not bond on all six teeth, just the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>to
>realign the teeth. How could we have prevented this?

1. do a fixed to all teeth if (a) there were severe rotations to begin with (b)
a lower incisor was extracted (c) spaces existed at the start of tx.  Otherwise
a fixe 3-3 canines only is the cadillac of retainers because it is so hygienic
and so easy to floss under.
2. make sure the lower 3-3 touches all teeth "intimately not just close enough"
a lot of orthos I know tell me they routinely bend the 3-3 "in the mouth" at
the deband appointment.  BS if you want a good result
You must obtain a model several days to a week before the deband to really
adapt the wire properly.  Zachrisson recommends three pronged pliers that are
really small to do this
3. what I have been doing lately is to take a very large diamond wheel (I'll
look the number of this up and send it to you) and using a slow speed to
lightly reshape the inguals of the lower front teeth so the wire will lie flat
against the lingual surface
4. don't be afraid to do interproximal reduction before debanding or during
retention.  Most orthos don't realize that you can use a small diameter thin
diamond wheel to strip the contacts if you see a little crowding happening
without removing the retainer.  In a worse case scenario, you could even bond
some clear buttons on the 3-3s and wear a light elastic from 3-3 to
restraighten things.  ( I don't find the need to do that even once per year but
I strip a lot both during the final months of tx and during retention and after
removing the 3-3 if a patient can ever get me to do that.)
Stripping with a thin wheel is a skill you must have to manage retnetion.  A
step down slow speed (<5000 rpm) is the key to safety.  Use air coolant from a
air water syringe.

If I need to relaign I much prefer resetting teeth and using suck downs rather
than Hawleys.  Much quicker and there is no doubt whether a patinet has worn it
or not as opposed to a Hawley which you seem to dick around with forever
(excuse my French).  See McNamara's book on this or I can send you some
additional info.

>As to the hygenists, who do you charge when they pop off a bonded retainer
>during a prophy, and what about the hygiene problems caused by those fixed
>reatiners in the few :) patients who don't floss regularly?

I am a businessman as much as a professional.  No charge is good business.  
Does not happen much but your technique must be perfect (see Zachrisson).

Finally, most patients don't floss.  The unusual patient is one who does.
Encourage Stimudents as an alternative.  Most perios think Stimudents are an
acceptable alternative to flossing.  Finally, if someone is not flossing does
that mean they have gum disease?  Or are they just not flossing?  Not everyone
who fails to floss develops pathology.  Without pathology, it is an informed
consent issue on whether to remove the retainer or not.

I remember a recent patient who came in and said the "my dentist says the lower
retainer has to come off."  I love that kind of comment from a dentist.  It is
usually someone who I don't have a great relationship with.  I ask the patient
why and he says "I can't floss my lower front teeth"  I say "Do you floss the
rest of your teeth?"  He says "NO"  I then call the dentist and explain the
situation.  It is up to the patient to remove the retainer of to have his teeth
cleaned more often.  I will never take a lower retainer off unless the hygiene
is brutal and then I strip the lower incisors.

Do you have a study club?  If so get Zachrisson in for two days one on one.
You will never regret it.  We did it several years ago and brought him back in
for two more days a couple of years later.  He is a fabulous person in a small
group.  He has all the answers on this subject.

Hug and kisses :-)

Will you be in Palm Springs in February (see AAO web site)?

Charlie Ruff
Charlie Ruff, DMD
Specialist in Orthodontics
Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics
Jeff Genecov - 04 Aug 2003 03:59 GMT
>Subject: Re: Cost of Invisalign
>Path: lobby!ngtf-m01.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
>Message-ID: <20030803220552.08385.00001248@mb-m20.aol.com>

>I like to finish my cases with the upper incisors resting on the lower
>braces.
>I start tx with the lower brackets adjusted to that the AW slot is at 4 mm
>from
>the incisal edge.  I think this means that I aim to finish with 2 mm of
>overbite (?)

We do that too.

>If I place the wire just at the height of the papilla and make sure that the
>wire to the laterals goes a little more gingival after it crosses the contact
>point, I have very few problems.  I used to use gold plated wire (0215 I
>think)
>ala Zachrisson but have switched to Ortho FlexTech by Reliance on the
>recommendation of Dave Musich.

I'll try the Orthoflex, maybe it won't interfere as much.

>I have seen spaces return between central incisors and I have always
>attributed
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>that strong, what would the patient have to do with a removable appliance to
>keep the space closed.  Obviously, it would not be possible.

Believe it or not, finger springs on a Hawley work very well under these
circumstances.

>In adults, I don't always have as much clearance as I would like because they
>all don't finish with only 2 mm of overbite.  I am not at all shy about
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>retention, this cleching activities provide more than enough force to stretch
>wires.

>1. do a fixed to all teeth if (a) there were severe rotations to begin with
>(b)
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>adapt the wire properly.  Zachrisson recommends three pronged pliers that are
>really small to do this

We do that for all bonded 3x3's that we do

>3. what I have been doing lately is to take a very large diamond wheel (I'll
>look the number of this up and send it to you) and using a slow speed to
>lightly reshape the inguals of the lower front teeth so the wire will lie
>flat
>against the lingual surface

Thanks for forwarding that to me.

>4. don't be afraid to do interproximal reduction before debanding or during
>retention.  Most orthos don't realize that you can use a small diameter thin
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>a
>air water syringe.

Stripping and buttons are techniques we use when indicated. Maybe I need to do
more of the stripping (of the teeth that is).

>If I need to relaign I much prefer resetting teeth and using suck downs
>rather
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>(excuse my French).  See McNamara's book on this or I can send you some
>additional info.

Which of McNamara's books?

>>As to the hygenists, who do you charge when they pop off a bonded retainer
>>during a prophy, and what about the hygiene problems caused by those fixed
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>Specialist in Orthodontics
>Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics

Thanks Charlie. I always get good thought provoking insights from MSD's
practical Maine man!

Regards,

Jeff Genecov, DDS, MSD, FICD
Diplomate, American Board of Orthodontics
FMN - 04 Aug 2003 07:27 GMT
Have you seen or tried the Par Orthodontics Lab technique (probably not
original) where they bend a braided SS wire for you and make a soft suckdown
with little holes on the lingual to squeeze in some flowable composite for
both holding down the custom wire at placement and control excess flow of
the resin?
regards
fmn

> >Most of my patients finish with an OJ/OB relationship that won't allow bonded
> 2x2's unless you impinge on the gingiva. What's your secret?
[quoted text clipped - 107 lines]
> Specialist in Orthodontics
> Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics
Joel M. Eichen D.D.S. - 30 Jul 2003 13:02 GMT
>> > My protocol for retention is the same in Invisalign cases as it is in other
>> > adult nonInvisalign cases.  Interestingly this is one of my favorite subjects
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> >
>> > Then came Dr. Buonocore and his use of acid etch.

** 1955 Eastman Dental Center ~ Rochester, New York**

> I graduated Tufts ortho in
>> > 1980 and even after that date, certain faculty including the chair were
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> > practice three years at that point and did not own upper or lower anterior
>> > bands.  I was fully committed to acid etch.

Signature

Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S.
Philadelphia PA

www.phillyducks.com
We’re Just A Duck Call Away!

STANDARD DISCLAIMER applies ~
meaning no one IN PENNSYLVANIA
has seen the tooth or teeth in
question so take this advice in
proper context ~ its the internet!

We is guessin'!

Delux - 29 Jul 2003 18:33 GMT
Thanks! that's very informative. I have a few of additional questions for
you:

This is my dentist (not an orthodontist) that's going to do this for me. One
of my front teeth is very crooked about 50 degrees - the dentist wants to
send a cast in to align technologies to first see if invisalign will work,
if they accept the case he will start treatment. Given these complications
do you suggest that I have an evaluation/treatment done by an Ortho?

In one of your other responses you suggested going to a Dental College to
get this treatment done - any particular reason for that ? Are there any
good dental colleges in NYC?

WRT the retainers - he suggested a tray for about a year OR a wire (I assume
this is fixed) behind my teeth. How long will I need to wear this and is it
at all visible? Is the cost of these generally included in the treatment
plan?

Thanks Very Much !

> Orthodmd wrote:
> >>ello,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> >>Newsgroups
> >>---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via
Encryption
> >>=---
> >
[quoted text clipped - 119 lines]
> Specialist in Orthodontics
> Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics
naniinvegas - 16 Jan 2007 00:24 GMT
Do dentist have to pay the same 2k for the express packages, and that is the
ball park for the express?

>>ello,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>anytime you do Invisalign the dentist has to pay Align Technologies around
>$2000 for the lab work.  that obviously takes a big chuck out of the $5000.

Charlie Ruff, DMD
>Specialist in Orthodontics
>Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics
 
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