>Most of my patients finish with an OJ/OB relationship that won't allow bonded
2x2's unless you impinge on the gingiva. What's your secret?
Who knows? :-)
I like to finish my cases with the upper incisors resting on the lower braces.
I start tx with the lower brackets adjusted to that the AW slot is at 4 mm from
the incisal edge. I think this means that I aim to finish with 2 mm of
overbite (?)
If I place the wire just at the height of the papilla and make sure that the
wire to the laterals goes a little more gingival after it crosses the contact
point, I have very few problems. I used to use gold plated wire (0215 I think)
ala Zachrisson but have switched to Ortho FlexTech by Reliance on the
recommendation of Dave Musich.
I have seen spaces return between central incisors and I have always attributed
this to either wire stretch or failure of the wire composite interface. On the
other hand, if the space opening forces in the area of a closed diatema are
that strong, what would the patient have to do with a removable appliance to
keep the space closed. Obviously, it would not be possible.
In adults, I don't always have as much clearance as I would like because they
all don't finish with only 2 mm of overbite. I am not at all shy about shaving
the enamel of the lower incisors in this case if it means being able to do
fixed retention.
Finally, and I can't emphasize this enough, after six weeks of settling all
patients get a suck down to be worn sleeping. I feel this does a lot to
prevent the kinds of problems you are talking about and to prevent breakage of
the upper retainer. Remember everyone grinds or clenches a little during sleep
and since there is a tendency for our bite opening effects to be undone during
retention, this cleching activities provide more than enough force to stretch
wires.
>I bought a practice 2 1/2 years ago in which the selling doctor used a lot of
>bonded L 3X3's for retention. He did not bond on all six teeth, just the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>to
>realign the teeth. How could we have prevented this?
1. do a fixed to all teeth if (a) there were severe rotations to begin with (b)
a lower incisor was extracted (c) spaces existed at the start of tx. Otherwise
a fixe 3-3 canines only is the cadillac of retainers because it is so hygienic
and so easy to floss under.
2. make sure the lower 3-3 touches all teeth "intimately not just close enough"
a lot of orthos I know tell me they routinely bend the 3-3 "in the mouth" at
the deband appointment. BS if you want a good result
You must obtain a model several days to a week before the deband to really
adapt the wire properly. Zachrisson recommends three pronged pliers that are
really small to do this
3. what I have been doing lately is to take a very large diamond wheel (I'll
look the number of this up and send it to you) and using a slow speed to
lightly reshape the inguals of the lower front teeth so the wire will lie flat
against the lingual surface
4. don't be afraid to do interproximal reduction before debanding or during
retention. Most orthos don't realize that you can use a small diameter thin
diamond wheel to strip the contacts if you see a little crowding happening
without removing the retainer. In a worse case scenario, you could even bond
some clear buttons on the 3-3s and wear a light elastic from 3-3 to
restraighten things. ( I don't find the need to do that even once per year but
I strip a lot both during the final months of tx and during retention and after
removing the 3-3 if a patient can ever get me to do that.)
Stripping with a thin wheel is a skill you must have to manage retnetion. A
step down slow speed (<5000 rpm) is the key to safety. Use air coolant from a
air water syringe.
If I need to relaign I much prefer resetting teeth and using suck downs rather
than Hawleys. Much quicker and there is no doubt whether a patinet has worn it
or not as opposed to a Hawley which you seem to dick around with forever
(excuse my French). See McNamara's book on this or I can send you some
additional info.
>As to the hygenists, who do you charge when they pop off a bonded retainer
>during a prophy, and what about the hygiene problems caused by those fixed
>reatiners in the few :) patients who don't floss regularly?
I am a businessman as much as a professional. No charge is good business.
Does not happen much but your technique must be perfect (see Zachrisson).
Finally, most patients don't floss. The unusual patient is one who does.
Encourage Stimudents as an alternative. Most perios think Stimudents are an
acceptable alternative to flossing. Finally, if someone is not flossing does
that mean they have gum disease? Or are they just not flossing? Not everyone
who fails to floss develops pathology. Without pathology, it is an informed
consent issue on whether to remove the retainer or not.
I remember a recent patient who came in and said the "my dentist says the lower
retainer has to come off." I love that kind of comment from a dentist. It is
usually someone who I don't have a great relationship with. I ask the patient
why and he says "I can't floss my lower front teeth" I say "Do you floss the
rest of your teeth?" He says "NO" I then call the dentist and explain the
situation. It is up to the patient to remove the retainer of to have his teeth
cleaned more often. I will never take a lower retainer off unless the hygiene
is brutal and then I strip the lower incisors.
Do you have a study club? If so get Zachrisson in for two days one on one.
You will never regret it. We did it several years ago and brought him back in
for two more days a couple of years later. He is a fabulous person in a small
group. He has all the answers on this subject.
Hug and kisses :-)
Will you be in Palm Springs in February (see AAO web site)?
Charlie Ruff
Charlie Ruff, DMD
Specialist in Orthodontics
Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics
Jeff Genecov - 04 Aug 2003 03:59 GMT
>Subject: Re: Cost of Invisalign
>Path: lobby!ngtf-m01.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
>Message-ID: <20030803220552.08385.00001248@mb-m20.aol.com>
>I like to finish my cases with the upper incisors resting on the lower
>braces.
>I start tx with the lower brackets adjusted to that the AW slot is at 4 mm
>from
>the incisal edge. I think this means that I aim to finish with 2 mm of
>overbite (?)
We do that too.
>If I place the wire just at the height of the papilla and make sure that the
>wire to the laterals goes a little more gingival after it crosses the contact
>point, I have very few problems. I used to use gold plated wire (0215 I
>think)
>ala Zachrisson but have switched to Ortho FlexTech by Reliance on the
>recommendation of Dave Musich.
I'll try the Orthoflex, maybe it won't interfere as much.
>I have seen spaces return between central incisors and I have always
>attributed
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>that strong, what would the patient have to do with a removable appliance to
>keep the space closed. Obviously, it would not be possible.
Believe it or not, finger springs on a Hawley work very well under these
circumstances.
>In adults, I don't always have as much clearance as I would like because they
>all don't finish with only 2 mm of overbite. I am not at all shy about
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>retention, this cleching activities provide more than enough force to stretch
>wires.
>1. do a fixed to all teeth if (a) there were severe rotations to begin with
>(b)
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>adapt the wire properly. Zachrisson recommends three pronged pliers that are
>really small to do this
We do that for all bonded 3x3's that we do
>3. what I have been doing lately is to take a very large diamond wheel (I'll
>look the number of this up and send it to you) and using a slow speed to
>lightly reshape the inguals of the lower front teeth so the wire will lie
>flat
>against the lingual surface
Thanks for forwarding that to me.
>4. don't be afraid to do interproximal reduction before debanding or during
>retention. Most orthos don't realize that you can use a small diameter thin
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>a
>air water syringe.
Stripping and buttons are techniques we use when indicated. Maybe I need to do
more of the stripping (of the teeth that is).
>If I need to relaign I much prefer resetting teeth and using suck downs
>rather
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>(excuse my French). See McNamara's book on this or I can send you some
>additional info.
Which of McNamara's books?
>>As to the hygenists, who do you charge when they pop off a bonded retainer
>>during a prophy, and what about the hygiene problems caused by those fixed
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>Specialist in Orthodontics
>Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics
Thanks Charlie. I always get good thought provoking insights from MSD's
practical Maine man!
Regards,
Jeff Genecov, DDS, MSD, FICD
Diplomate, American Board of Orthodontics
FMN - 04 Aug 2003 07:27 GMT
Have you seen or tried the Par Orthodontics Lab technique (probably not
original) where they bend a braided SS wire for you and make a soft suckdown
with little holes on the lingual to squeeze in some flowable composite for
both holding down the custom wire at placement and control excess flow of
the resin?
regards
fmn
> >Most of my patients finish with an OJ/OB relationship that won't allow bonded
> 2x2's unless you impinge on the gingiva. What's your secret?
[quoted text clipped - 107 lines]
> Specialist in Orthodontics
> Diplomate American Board of Orthodontics