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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / July 2009Health Overhaul 'Unlikely' Before Recess
White House officials sought a massive reworking of the nation's health care system before Congress left on August recess, but key lawmakers signaled on Sunday the administration would be disappointed. Work was set to continue Monday on the Senate's version, although officials acknowledge they are far from finished with a plan that could cost taxpayers trillions over the next decade and reshape how Americans receive care. "Well, we don't expect it to be signed into law by the August recess," said Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y. "But we expect the House and Senate to have passed bills, yes." The White House's strategy to leave the legislative back-and-forth to Congress has produced varying and sometimes contradictory versions of health care legislation — along with delays. As the Senate turns its attention to Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor's confirmation hearings, the focus on that side of the Capitol will turn away from Obama's top domestic priority. The administration's Democratic partners in Congress hinted they would not deliver legislation before leaving town for an August recess. Sen. Debbie Stabenow, D-Mich., said Obama should be pleased with lawmakers' progress; Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., said "there really is plenty of time." The delay would be a blow to the White House and to Democrats' electoral prospects. The House and Senate are working toward legislation that would deliver on Obama's popular goals from his presidential campaign, but they are hardly in unison. House Democrats have proposed raising taxes on wealthy Americans to pay for the plan. Democratic leaders, meanwhile, have tried to calm moderate and conservative lawmakers about a proposal that could guarantee tough re-election bids. Republicans, seizing on an issue that affects all Americans and has shown a glimmer of hope for an out-of-power political party, have lambasted the proposals as rash and irresponsible. They also see the issue as a way to win House and Senate seats in the 2010 midterm elections. "There is no chance that it's going to be done by August," said Sen. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz. "President Obama was right about one thing: He said if it's not done quickly, it won't be done at all. Why did he say that? Because the longer it hangs out there, the more the American people are skeptical, anxious and even in opposition to it." Obama's Health and Human Services secretary, Kathleen Sebelius, tried to calm fears Democrats would tax some employer-provided health care benefits as income. She said the details are far from finished. Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't want federal control and regulation of the health care industry.  SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . "President Obama was right about one thing: He said if it's not done quickly, it won't be done at all. Why did he say that? Because the longer it hangs out there, the more the American people are skeptical, anxious and even in opposition to it." > Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't > want federal control and regulation of the health care > industry. So you figure that they would rather die early from lack of access to medical care? IMO, the need for haste mentioned in the article has more to do with outmaneuvering the special interest groups who have been keeping the American health consumer in this ridiculous situation. I don't know about you, but for my wife and I, health care costs us at least 2X our next largest expense. We consider ourselves lucky to still be able to afford it at all. Vaughn >> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >> want federal control and regulation of the health care [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Vaughn I recently shredded my check stubs from about 2002. Someone had told me that I should keep the past 7 years or so. I was shocked to see that our med. insurance had just about tripled since then. Goes up every year. The only reason this is ever off the front page is that so many people are still in employee-sponsored health plans, but at this rate how much longer can THAT last? Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > I recently shredded my check stubs from about 2002. Someone had told me > that I should keep the past 7 years or so. I was shocked to see that our > med. insurance had just about tripled since then. Goes up every year. > The only reason this is ever off the front page is that so many people are > still in employee-sponsored health plans, but at this rate how much longer > can THAT last? Employer-sponsored health plans have been unraveling over the last 10 years or so. Some employers have simply thrown up their hands and eliminated health coverage, while the others are doing the same thing by degrees, gradually offloading the expense to their employees with increased co-pays, reduced benefits, and higher premiums. I stayed in my job 8 years past my normal retirement date mostly to continue employee benefits. Now that I am finally retired, we bear the entire cost of our health benefits until we reach Medicare age; so now we directly "feel the pain". That "pain" comes to $1,800/month plus co-pays! Vaughn >> I recently shredded my check stubs from about 2002. Someone had told me >> that I should keep the past 7 years or so. I was shocked to see that our [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Vaughn We're paying about $1600/mo for the three of us, in Oxford, which is a point-of-service plan. My docs say the fees haven't risen in years (of course the premiums go up every year), and in some specialties (apparently esp. OB-GYN) participating docs are dropping like flies. And we have no outpatient prescription benefits, which is gradually becoming a bigger and bigger issue as we get older. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 Just imagine your health care. with the manners of the DMV, the efficiency of the public works department, the streamlined cost cutting of the public schools, and the accuracy of the post office. SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . We're paying about $1600/mo for the three of us, in Oxford, which is a point-of-service plan. My docs say the fees haven't risen in years (of course the premiums go up every year), and in some specialties (apparently esp. OB-GYN) participating docs are dropping like flies. And we have no outpatient prescription benefits, which is gradually becoming a bigger and bigger issue as we get older. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > Just imagine your health care. with the manners of the DMV, > the efficiency of the public works department, the > streamlined cost cutting of the public schools, and the > accuracy of the post office. Is this some kind of script? BTW, many hospitals in NYC would have to strain to get to that standard. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>> I recently shredded my check stubs from about 2002. Someone had told me >>> that I should keep the past 7 years or so. I was shocked to see that our [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >Steve So do you have $19,200 worth of medical expenses per year ? Getting a catastrophic plan with a high deductible would probably meet your needs better. Maybe with a chronic disease rider ? Also, did you know they want to delete medical savings accounts too ? If you paid *less* taxes, would you have more money for medical expenses ? Or anything else you wished to spend it on ? [rhetorical] C'mon, what does the gov't really run well, and efficiently ? Just one example would suffice. And much of that pays for useless regulation. And for people who don't work. Health care isn't a right mentioned in the Constitution. SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . entire cost of our health benefits until we reach Medicare age; so now we directly "feel the pain". That "pain" comes to $1,800/month plus co-pays! Vaughn > And much of that pays for useless regulation. And for people > who don't work. Health care isn't a right mentioned in the > Constitution. Hmmm, funny you never mentioned the cut taken off the top by the insurance company. I have seen what they pay my doctor and it is pitiful. How did the Constitution get into this discussion? Straw man? Vaughn If you believe the folks on the left, health care is in the constitution. I'm used to hearing it often when the conversation turns to health care. If the free market was working, there would be competition. SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . Hmmm, funny you never mentioned the cut taken off the top by the insurance company. I have seen what they pay my doctor and it is pitiful. How did the Constitution get into this discussion? Straw man? Vaughn >> I recently shredded my check stubs from about 2002. Someone had told me >> that I should keep the past 7 years or so. I was shocked to see that our [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Vaughn Catastrophic or Chronic illness plan, maybe. Once the fed have hold of healthcare they will tell you what to eat, what to drive, and fine you health choices like tobacco use, not exercising, drinking, etc... ad nauseam... It's a slippery slope, I tell ya, and you will see your freedoms vanish before your eyes. I do think that you are a special case, and it was work related. It's all about controll and has nothing to do with healthcare. How many will want to be doctors in a decade or two ? The admission requirements will have to be lowered, and then we will have dumb a.ses as doctors. Why do they leave that out ? (rhetorical) >> I stayed in my job 8 years past my normal retirement date mostly to >>continue employee benefits. Now that I am finally retired, we bear the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Catastrophic or Chronic illness plan, maybe. Yes, we have been weighing that. > Once the fed have hold of healthcare they will tell you what > to eat, what to drive, and fine you health choices like tobacco use, > not exercising, drinking, etc... ad nauseam... The Feds have had hold of over 65 healthcare for decades now and from what I see, it basicly works. What we have is a mixture of private and public options that we get to choose from; much llike Obama has been proposing for the rest of us. > It's a slippery slope, I tell ya, and you will see your freedoms > vanish before your eyes. In health care, we don't really have a free market. I don't see those "freedoms" that you are talking about. They are already gone. In contrast, we do have a pretty free market for food in the USA. I can go to most any store that I wish, it is fairly easy to judge the quality of the products for sale, and everyone in the checkout line pays the same price. Our medical system does not work that way at all! > It's all about controll and has nothing to do with healthcare. I should be about out-of-control costs and a healthcare system that is broken. > How many will want to be doctors in a decade or two ? How many want to be doctors today? I have seen what my doctor makes, and I would not change places with him. > The admission requirements will have to be lowered, and then > we will have dumb a.ses as doctors. Rather than having that guy who doesn't speak English? Vaughn You you can afford a cheeseburger at McD, but not health care. And which one is government over regulated? Making the connection? SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . I recently shredded my check stubs from about 2002. Someone had told me that I should keep the past 7 years or so. I was shocked to see that our med. insurance had just about tripled since then. Goes up every year. The only reason this is ever off the front page is that so many people are still in employee-sponsored health plans, but at this rate how much longer can THAT last? Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > You you can afford a cheeseburger at McD, but not health > care. And which one is government over regulated? Making the > connection? Yeah--cheeseburgers only SEEM cheap! Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >>> want federal control and regulation of the health care [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Steve Can't wait to see how you feel when the feds start limiting your salary. Me ? I'll retire comfortably than work at a gov't mandated rate. No, I don't accept medicare nor medicaid. It ain't worth my time. >>>> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >>>> want federal control and regulation of the health care [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >It ain't worth my time. When I draw the short straw for trauma, just one example, the reimbursement from either medicaid or medicare is alittle better than the self-payers. Ofcourse, trauma self-payers refers to those that wont pay a dime. Cant cover any of my costs so why am I stuck doing it? I will lose my hospital privileges. I love you guys, but bottom posting sucks. Steve > Cant cover any of my costs so why am I stuck doing it? I will lose my > hospital privileges. I love you too and I am very sorry ;) >I love you guys, but bottom posting sucks. > >Steve > >> Cant cover any of my costs so why am I stuck doing it? I will lose my >> hospital privileges. >I love you guys, but bottom posting sucks. > >> Cant cover any of my costs so why am I stuck doing it? I will lose my >> hospital privileges. How sweet. I guess I don't say it enough, but I love you too! That said, bottom (and especially middle) posting makes great sense as long as one takes the effort to trim text. to minimize scrolling. Frankly, I don't care where folks post as long as the result is easy to follow. Vaughn *If* the poster followed your instructions, yes it doesn't matter much. Not many bother, and I have to scroll to find a hidden, one line reply, or just blow it off. If Dave replies, I'm going to find his words. He's usually worth the trouble. It's not a big deal to me, but it's pretty nice when skimming through the ng to have the reply at least show up on the screen without having to grab the mouse and scroll down. Scariest words to here at the door: "Hello, we are from the government, and we are here to *help* you." JMO, D > That said, bottom (and especially middle) posting makes great sense as long > as one takes the effort to trim text. to minimize scrolling. Frankly, I > don't care where folks post as long as the result is easy to follow. > > Vaughn Yes Dartos, but your post below (in this rare case, left in its entirety for clarity) is a perfect example of a bad application of top posting. One reads your statement "*If* the poster followed your ..." without the slightest context to what it "*IF*" refers to. In other words, the reader gets the *answer* but is left to scroll and search for the *question*. To me, (speaking with gentle respect) that is bad style, just as bad as the guy who leaves a one line answer at the bottom as 100 lines of quoted text. I like a post to flow in a logical "question-answer, question-answer" format and try to post in that style most of the time. Like you, I dislike being forced to continuously drag my mouse down to read answers. Like you, my inclination to bother depends somewhat on the poster. Vaughn > instructions, yes it doesn't matter much. > Not many bother, and I have to scroll to find a hidden, one line reply, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> >> Vaughn Everywhere I've been on usenet, top-posting is considered bad form. Yes, I understand the objection to not snipping and editing the previous posts. > Yes Dartos, but your post below (in this rare case, left in its entirety for > clarity) is a perfect example of a bad application of top posting. One [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Vaughn > SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > *If* the poster followed your instructions, yes it doesn't matter much. > Not many bother, and I have to scroll to find a hidden, one line reply, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> >> Vaughn I've only had government agents at my door a couple of times. They didn't say they were there to help me though. Is that less scary? Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > I've only had government agents at my door a couple of times. They > didn't say they were there to help me though. Is that less scary? > > Steve Probably not... The 'state' came to inspect my X-ray machines a couple of weeks ago. Actually turned out to be a 'painless' process and just happening because the head of the department said, "This year we're going to check dental offices". (it was only 20 years since the last time) The fellow knew alot about radiation, and said all the real exposure dangers were in the manufacturing sector. CAT scan machines ramped up enough to see into a running auto engine, radiation sources to inspect pipeline welds that would give you a lethal dose in just 15 minutes of exposure, etc. The rational, thinking Americans I know realize that the free market is the only way to provide good quality health care at reasonable prices. When the free market is working, people don't need to die early. But, the countries which have socialized medicine do end up with early deaths. The biggest rediculous special interest is people like Obama, who want to control your life. SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:h3kji9$6ak$1@news.eternal-september.org... > Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't > want federal control and regulation of the health care > industry. So you figure that they would rather die early from lack of access to medical care? IMO, the need for haste mentioned in the article has more to do with outmaneuvering the special interest groups who have been keeping the American health consumer in this ridiculous situation. I don't know about you, but for my wife and I, health care costs us at least 2X our next largest expense. We consider ourselves lucky to still be able to afford it at all. Vaughn > The rational, thinking Americans I know ... OH! You must be talking about the few who agree with you...right? ;-) Vaughn But, of course! SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:h3lug9$e65$1@news.eternal-september.org... > The rational, thinking Americans I know ... OH! You must be talking about the few who agree with you...right? ;-) Vaughn > The rational, thinking Americans I know realize that the > free market is the only way to provide good quality health > care at reasonable prices. Count me irrational. > When the free market is working, people don't need to die > early. But, the countries which have socialized medicine do > end up with early deaths. Read it and weep. From those lefties at ths CIA: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html Steve > The biggest rediculous special interest is people like > Obama, who want to control your life. SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >> The rational, thinking Americans I know realize that the free market >> is the only way to provide good quality health care at reasonable [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Steve More top grades for the U.S.A.: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html Steve >> The biggest rediculous special interest is people like Obama, who want >> to control your life. SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 What would you like to see? SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . Stormin Mormon wrote: > The rational, thinking Americans I know realize that the > free market is the only way to provide good quality > health > care at reasonable prices. Count me irrational. > What would you like to see? I'd like to see results, considering we spend more per capita on health care than anyone else (including countries with socialized medicine, like Canada, the UK and Sweden). We should not have health statistics of a third-world country. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_spe_per_per-health-spending-per-person http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php If you have time for it,: http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/23/3/10 Steve On Jul 15, 8:59 pm, "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote: > The rational, thinking Americans I know realize that the > free market is the only way to provide good quality health [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The biggest rediculous special interest is people like > Obama, who want to control your life. But is the healthcare system now, truly a free market? In a freemarket health care costs would go down with everything else, not up. > On Jul 15, 8:59 pm, "Stormin Mormon" > <cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > But is the healthcare system now, truly a free market? In a freemarket > health care costs would go down with everything else, not up. Of course it's not a free market. Most of the libertarian crowd thinks we shouldn't have state licensing at all, so we can all play doctor. Even in a free market, prices would go down only if demand went up or supply went down. Yes, there are plenty of governmental (and corporate) forces influencing fees and prices. The pharmaceutical industry is just the easiest area to demonstrate this in, but certainly not the only one. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > Of course it's not a free market. Most of the libertarian crowd thinks we > shouldn't have state licensing at all, Just like in anything else, there are different degrees of libertarianism. I called myself a Libertarian for many years, but stopped because I didn't want to be associated with the crazies. (Same reason I dropped the NRA decades ago) Some Libertarians look a whole lot like anarchists to me. > Even in a free market, prices would go down only if demand went up or > supply went down. Oops! Either you got something backwards there or I had the wrong professor for Economics 101. ;-) Vaughn >> Of course it's not a free market. Most of the libertarian crowd thinks we >> shouldn't have state licensing at all, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Tales from the Bizzaro world. Thanks for the catch. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 Prices go down if demand goes up? Huh? That's backwards. Prices go down if supply goes down? Backwards, again. Do you work for government? SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . Of course it's not a free market. Most of the libertarian crowd thinks we shouldn't have state licensing at all, so we can all play doctor. Even in a free market, prices would go down only if demand went up or supply went down. Yes, there are plenty of governmental (and corporate) forces influencing fees and prices. The pharmaceutical industry is just the easiest area to demonstrate this in, but certainly not the only one. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >> On Jul 15, 8:59 pm, "Stormin Mormon" >> <cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Of course it's not a free market. Most of the libertarian crowd thinks >we shouldn't have state licensing at all, so we can all play doctor. Milton Friedman advocated this for years. One of the very few things I don't agree with him on. > Even in a free market, prices would go down only if demand went up or >supply went down. Yes, there are plenty of governmental (and corporate) >forces influencing fees and prices. The pharmaceutical industry is just >the easiest area to demonstrate this in, but certainly not the only one. > >Steve >>> On Jul 15, 8:59 pm, "Stormin Mormon" >>> <cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Milton Friedman advocated this for years. One of the very few things I > don't agree with him on. Why is it that libertarians are against regulation except when it protects their own livelihood (rhetorical question ;-)) Steve >> Even in a free market, prices would go down only if demand went up or >> supply went down. Yes, there are plenty of governmental (and corporate) >> forces influencing fees and prices. The pharmaceutical industry is just >> the easiest area to demonstrate this in, but certainly not the only one. >> >> Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>>> On Jul 15, 8:59 pm, "Stormin Mormon" >>>> <cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Steve First, I dont believe that licensure automatically jacks up the cost of health care as much as some proclaim. Way too many other things going on to hand pick that one. Alot of L's, just like Vaughn (I think it was him) mentioned, do not want anything under regulation and are basically anarchists. Looneytarianism is the only way to describe it. Hypocritical of them to suggest the practice of regulating only what is in their best interest. Not very libertarian afterall. >>> Even in a free market, prices would go down only if demand went up or >>> supply went down. Yes, there are plenty of governmental (and corporate) >>> forces influencing fees and prices. The pharmaceutical industry is just >>> the easiest area to demonstrate this in, but certainly not the only one. >>> >>> Steve > First, I dont believe that licensure automatically jacks up the cost > of health care as much as some proclaim. Way too many other things [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Hypocritical of them to suggest the practice of regulating only what > is in their best interest. Not very libertarian afterall. Vaughn an anarchist? A regular...um, Sacco and Vanzetti? Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >> ...Alot of L's, just like Vaughn (I think >> it was him) mentioned, do not want anything under regulation and are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Vaughn an anarchist? A regular...um, Sacco and Vanzetti? Just to be clear, my Master's is in Public Administration and I was employed in government service for over 40 years (military + civilian career). I think that hardly makes me anarchist material! I do think that there are government licensing and certification programs that make little sense, but medical/dental are not among them. For example: I hold an FCC commercial radio license. At one time, you needed one of those licenses to work on most any radio transmitter in the USA. The truth was, there were many licensed folks who memorized their way through the test and were not competent to do what they were licensed to do. Likewise, there were legions of very competent electronics technicians who could not seem to pass the same test. Employers ultimately figured out that a piece of paper did not = an electronics technician. That license requirement was quietly dropped a few years back, and the world has continued its orbit as if nothing happened. Vaughn No, it's not. The health care business is already over regulated. Which is why so many people are unhappy. The government won't let business do what it wants, and won't let the customers buy what they want. So, now that we have a problem with over regulation, Uncle Obammy wants to solve the over regulation problem by increasing regulations. You know. If it's not helping, do it harder, faster, more. SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . But is the healthcare system now, truly a free market? In a freemarket health care costs would go down with everything else, not up. On Jul 18, 7:59 pm, "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote: > No, it's not. The health care business is already over > regulated. Which is why so many people are unhappy. The [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the over regulation problem by increasing regulations. You > know. If it's not helping, do it harder, faster, more. I think the problem is underregulation for lobbyists-too many lobbyists letting insurance and drug companies write legislation, that's why medicare is so messed up, higher profits for the drug companies, less coverage for citizens. Now, you could look at that and say medicare is "overregulated", but that's because all those rules are what the drug companies want, it boosts their profits. ....that's why medicare is so messed up... If Medicare is so "messed up," then why am I wishing that I didn't have to wait 2 more years to qualify for it? Watching how it works for my father, his wife, and a few older friends of mine, it looks like it is working pretty damn good! Without it, my father would clearly be under water (financially speaking). Vaughn > ....that's why medicare is so messed up... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Vaughn I don't have personal experience with medicare, but if you saw Obama's press conference you saw that he felt medicare had a lot of waste. Additionally it was mentioned often that medicare ( but not social security) will bankrupt the budget soon at the present rate. > I don't have personal experience with medicare, but if you saw Obama's > press conference you saw that he felt > medicare had a lot of waste. Additionally it was mentioned often that > medicare ( but not social security) will bankrupt > the budget soon at the present rate. The problems come when millions of people now want their "FREE" health care. It is in no way "FREE". For the people who don't earn any money, it may seem free, but someone has to pay for it. Guess who always gets saddled with that burden.... All of the drug company advertising and the power chair commercials ("AT NO COST TO ME")....that's sick! I don't say neigh, I say nay, D Ah, we do live in the generation of greed. I'm sad that the government has managed to figure out how to suck money out of the pockets of those who work. And give it to lazy butts who don't work. And, that's the foretelling of what national health care will be like. Got a job? Expect to be taxed to death. SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . All of the drug company advertising and the power chair commercials ("AT NO COST TO ME")....that's sick! I don't say neigh, I say nay, D > And, that's the foretelling of what national health care > will be like. Got a job? Expect to be taxed to death. First; anyone who is lucky enough to have health benefits is being CHARGED to death right now. I have heard lots of "Nays" coming from the conservative side of the room, but I am still listening in vain for a workable alternative plan. What we are doing today is not working and is unsustainable. What do you suggest? Second; *OF COURSE* we are going to be taxed to death. The last administration left us with an unprecedented budget deficit and so far, our present administration has done little but pile more on. Sooner or later, the note+interest will come due. The hit will come mostly in the form of inflation, which is just another type of tax. Vaughn > > I don't have personal experience with medicare, but if you saw Obama's > > press conference you saw that he felt [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > care. It is in no way "FREE". For the people who don't earn any money, > it may seem free, but someone has to pay for it. So you agree or disagree that medicare needs to be changed? I'm interpreting that as, "unchecked the free coverage from medicare will bankrupt the budget", therefore I agree with President Obama's health plan. >>The problems come when millions of people now want their "FREE" health >>care. It is in no way "FREE". For the people who don't earn any money, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > bankrupt the budget", therefore I agree with President Obama's health > plan. OK...what plan? I haven't seen any real plan. Just a lot of political rhetoric. Right now, tobacco use and obesity are the two main factors breaking the healthcare bank. What legislation is going to be the cure for those issues? The President is addicted to nicotine himself! IMO, the health system is 'broken' by too many greedy fingers in the mix. The giant insurance companies and the major drug companies top the list. Then the companies that are pushing services over the TV for diabetes, power chairs, and the like are there too. The medical tech industry is not there just to help you feel better either. They are out to make new advances that are 'must haves' in the hospital or medical clinic and then make huge profits from their sale. Toss in the malpractice lawyers, along government meddling and things are not too 'healthy'. With the money and power exerted by these interests, I doubt there will be any significant improvement. They will each just be working to keep their slice of the pie as large as possible. The government will make a big deal out of 'reform' and we will all pay more for the same or less value. D > >>The problems come when millions of people now want their "FREE" health > >>care. It is in no way "FREE". For the people who don't earn any money, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > OK...what plan? I haven't seen any real plan. Just a lot of political > rhetoric. > IMO, the health system is 'broken' by too many greedy fingers in the > mix. The giant insurance companies and the major drug companies top > the list. I agree that special interests are the main problem. I don't see changing medicare as the main solution to this problem, I just thought that maybe Obama was going to restructure/replace medicare and at the same time make the new system partially address the problem of special interests using the bargaining power of the government run health plans. Off another list. Here are some thoughts about dying early. Below your text. SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . So you figure that they would rather die early from lack of access to medical care? =============================== On Jul 9, 10:36 pm, Soldier in a Combat Zone <Omega....@gmail.com> wrote: > x-no-archive:yes > > This is frightening ! What, precisely, do you find so frightening? > Especially for all of those folks who had such great > expectations that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > this is from the LA times................ http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-health25-2009jun > "President Obama suggested at a town hall event Wednesday > night that [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > administration and > it allies have begun. Lets do it! >Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >want federal control and regulation of the health care >industry. They didn't want bailouts either. Didnt stop W nor the Alinsky deciple. >> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >> want federal control and regulation of the health care >> industry. > > They didn't want bailouts either. Didnt stop W nor the Alinsky > deciple. Love to see you posting even tho we don't see eye-to-eye politically. Best, Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 Well, I guess I could mention the tooth I chipped, Sunday. Eating crackers and cheese, of all things. I'm going to pay, using fee for service, which might not be legal for long. SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . Love to see you posting even tho we don't see eye-to-eye politically. Best, Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > Well, I guess I could mention the tooth I chipped, Sunday. > Eating crackers and cheese, of all things. I'm going to pay, > using fee for service, which might not be legal for long. I doubt either of us have to worry very much about that. I may have to worry about patients losing their employer-sponsored health plans though. They can't all afford to go cash-and-carry like you and me. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >> Well, I guess I could mention the tooth I chipped, Sunday. >> Eating crackers and cheese, of all things. I'm going to pay, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Steve In my locale it is not as rare as you may think. >>> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >>> want federal control and regulation of the health care [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Best, >Steve Hey Mark. I lurk mostly since not much going on in here. I would certainly argue the lack of consumer input and regulation with regards to healthcare insurance is a significant factor in costs. Government is fond of eliminating choices either directly or by slight of hand. Not to mention there isn't much they are efficient at except creating a boogey-man. I place my faith firmly on the side of the individual. >>>> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >>>> want federal control and regulation of the health care [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > except creating a boogey-man. I place my faith firmly on the side of > the individual. What to do with those pesky insurance companies? Steve (not Mark) SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>>>> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >>>>> want federal control and regulation of the health care [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >What to do with those pesky insurance companies? Reduce the state/fed gov't footprint and permit consumers to itemize what is best for them. I had the big V done and I still have to contribute to fertility, as just one example, and I have no say in the matter. >Steve (not Mark) LOL. Sorry, I am an idiot ;) >>>>>> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >>>>>> want federal control and regulation of the health care [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > LOL. Sorry, I am an idiot ;) You mean cut out insurance altogether, I assume. That's what insurance is--it spreads risk. I pay for obstetrical services, women pay for TURs. ;-) Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>>>>>> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >>>>>>> want federal control and regulation of the health care [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >Steve I am not saying eliminate insurance. I am saying place the consumer in control of their healthcare dollars. It is estimated that close to 1/3 of the costs are simply waste. Spending other peoples money is too easy. > On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:23:20 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > - Show quoted text - And that is after they saved so much money excluding all those people with pre-existing conditions. >>>>>> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >>>>>> want federal control and regulation of the health care [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >contribute to fertility, as just one example, and I have no say in the >matter. Lovely. Those who wish to take our freedoms, always take them in little bites, and never quit. Except for yoBama, who like large big chunks of your steak. >>Steve (not Mark) > >LOL. Sorry, I am an idiot ;) No. >>>>> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >>>>> want federal control and regulation of the health care [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Steve (not Mark) Apparently the same thing the feds did with those pesky automobile companies. Asked SM how the economy in his area is lately ? When did 'profit' become a dirty word to you ? Capitalism, while not perfect, is the only system that truly works. If an individual cannot reap the benefits of working harder, longer, and smarter, then incentive to do such is removed. Sorry it's just human nature. Motivation to eat, have shelter, and protect the tribe is as old as humankind. Do you like giving 58% of your hard earned cash to the gov't ? (What the avg rate in NYC is, IIRC) Oh yeah, did you hear that CA is bankrupt ? The fall of the Roman empire is much more interesting than the rise. See any parallels ? >>What to do with those pesky insurance companies? > Apparently the same thing the feds did with those pesky automobile > companies. Capitalism depends on a healthy dose of Darwinism, inefficient companies die and are replaced my efficient ones. It is a painful but necessary process. Just ask anyone in Michigan how painful it is. I think the government rescue of the auto industry was an error. (I am talking world politics/economics here, It was not just USA that engaged in this.) > When did 'profit' become a dirty word to you ? I don't know anyone who considers profit to be a dirty word. > Oh yeah, did you hear that CA is bankrupt ? I thought they fixed that a few years back by kicking out a Democratic Governor in favor of one from the other side of the isle? You mean that didn't work out for them? > The fall of the Roman empire is much more interesting than the rise. > See any parallels ? You mean the lead poisoning? Vaughn >>>> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >>>> want federal control and regulation of the health care [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >except creating a boogey-man. I place my faith firmly on the side of >the individual. Same here and glad to see that you still lurk Dr. King !!! >>> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >>> want federal control and regulation of the health care [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Best, >Steve Does that go for me too ? Jes wunnerin' . >>>> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >>>> want federal control and regulation of the health care [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Jes wunnerin' . Bien sûr! Steve >>>>> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >>>>> want federal control and regulation of the health care [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Steve Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Stephan Bornfeld. Wubba No hable español ? >Wubba Ahoi! >No hable español ? Nö. ;O) Cheers! SignatureWARNING: The web-hoster Globat.com steals money from your credit card account. ===================================================================== In the past years Globat.com had their support staff in India. The India employees were clueless and did not have actual access to the servers. They only served as a cushion to quieten down the customers. >>>>>> Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >>>>>> want federal control and regulation of the health care [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > No hable español ? After this tour de France, I may need to learn. S SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 Yes, that's what scares me. All the dead people from Chicago want health care. SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 08:46:53 -0400, "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote: >Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't >want federal control and regulation of the health care >industry. They didn't want bailouts either. Didnt stop W nor the Alinsky deciple. > Well, doesn't that say it all? The American public doesn't > want federal control and regulation of the health care > industry. No, it doesn't say even nearly mostly largely all. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 |
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