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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / December 2008OSHA rules
I am in the process of looking for a new dentist. I got a recommendation from a friend. I called the office and asked for about 10 minutes to come in and meet the dentist and talk about his approach to dentistry. I was told that (a) I would have to fill out their standard intake form and (b) there would be a $95 charge. I replied that I did not want an examination at this time. I was going to interview 2-3 dentists and then choose one. I just wanted 10-15 minutes at his convenience to chat. I was told that (a) the office police is to charge for all consultations whether there is an examination or not, (b) that he cannot spare the time to see me because he might need it for another person who might have an emergency, and (c) that OSHA rules require them to get intake information from anyone who walks into the office. "It's the law." I am curious about that last point. Is it true that OSHA will not allow the dentist to talk to me about becoming a patient without filling out the intake form? > I am in the process of looking for a new dentist. I got a > recommendation from a friend. I called the office and asked for about [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > allow the dentist to talk to me about becoming a patient without > filling out the intake form? This may be an interesting legal point. I should note that my cleaning service has been all over my office and they've never made out a health history. Nor did I charge them a fee for being in my treatment room. The real reason is (a)--it's office policy. You may consider this unsatisfactory, and move on. I'm sure many dentists will have the same policy--esp. if their appointment books are full. During the early days of the HIV epidemic, I had some patients ask for a tour of my sterilization area before making an appointment. I think it would be silly of me to have taken that personally. I think it should be perfectly OK for a patient to ask a dentist for an interview. Understand that there is no obligation for the dentist to grant one. I certainly would, as business is slow! Personally, I have only once been granted an interview with a doctor, and that was our pediatrician before our daughter was born. But this was in Park Slope, Brooklyn--a very touchy-feely type of a neighborhood. He felt he had to answer the concerns of new parents--and he did. We are still using the same office 13 years later. Steve  SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >I am in the process of looking for a new dentist. I got a >recommendation from a friend. I called the office and asked for about [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >allow the dentist to talk to me about becoming a patient without >filling out the intake form? A dentist makes a living by selling time. What you are proposing is to take up 15 minutes with 3 dentists without paying for the time and perhaps become patient at one office. That isn't fair. >>I am in the process of looking for a new dentist. I got a >>recommendation from a friend. I called the office and asked for about [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >take up 15 minutes with 3 dentists without paying for the time and >perhaps become patient at one office. That isn't fair. Fair? I also sell my time. I offer 10-15 minutes to any referred client free of charge. I have worked with many attorneys and almost all of them offer some sort of intro meeting at no or low charge. I've hired many types of contractors. They all (except exterminators) come out to my house for free and make bids. What's so special about dentists? And, more importantly, why did they lie to me about OHSA "law"? I'm going to spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars over many years. If they can't invest 10 minutes to meet me, they don't want my business. > What's so special about dentists? Unfortunately, we have a huge overhead with physical facility and staff costs to name a few. The office manager should have been willing to give you a tour of the office, but to get 10 or 15 minutes of a busy dentist/business person's time today is asking a lot. I don't think any physicians would go along with this either. Back in the '80s when we spent a lot of time reading magazines and newspapers we would gladly have given you a "free" interview, but times and expenses have evolved. >> What's so special about dentists? > >Unfortunately, we have a huge overhead with physical facility and >staff costs to name a few. You're breaking my heart. Dentists around here make a fortune. That overhead is covered many times over. >The office manager should have been willing >to give you a tour of the office, but to get 10 or 15 minutes of a >busy dentist/business person's time today is asking a lot. I don't >think any physicians would go along with this either. Then these folks have lost perspective and they will not get my business. If they are too busy making money to treat me with respect, their priorities are screwed up. It's arrogance and greed. Since my original post, I have called 2 other referrals. Both were very helpful and readily agreed to meet me. I will see one tomorrow. >Back in the '80s when we spent a lot of time reading magazines and >newspapers we would gladly have given you a "free" interview, but >times and expenses have evolved. Devolved is more like it. > >> What's so special about dentists? > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Devolved is more like it. I'm not trying to break your heart. I went into dentistry for, believe it or don't. altruistic reasons. Uncompromising, uncaring, un- interested, lay people/patients, changed my mind quite rapidly. After having given away more than a half million dollars of dental care in 20 years, I really don't care what *ONE* patient like you cares about. I care about the majority of my "people" who have confidence in me and my integrity. Sit on it! or Eat me! Whatever you like. Wow! I'm surprised at these answers. I'm going to interview a dentist in January. I would be surprised at being charged very much for this. The last successful interview I did with a dentist cost me $25. He sat and talked to me for about 1/2 an hour. When I told him I was very scared, he looked at me and said "You know, I am too." OK, so he had me at hello. The last time I tried to interview a dentist and encountered a negative attitude, I also had a negative experience with the dentist. Attitude counts. If a dentist doesn't care enough to talk to you and ease your fears, go someplace else. >Wow! I'm surprised at these answers. Me, too. Not every response was dismissive, though. >I'm going to interview a >dentist in January. I would be surprised at being charged very much [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Attitude counts. If a dentist doesn't care enough to talk to you and >ease your fears, go someplace else. That's how I feel. Whether the guy is too busy or too arrogant or too indifferent, it won't be a good fit for me. > That's how I feel. Whether the guy is too busy or too arrogant or too > indifferent, it won't be a good fit for me. Also, the attitude of the receptionists matters alot to me. I have found two dentists in my area who are just wonderful with me, and the women who work in their offices are great. I have never felt rushed, belittled, nothing negative. I get extremely anxious about going to the dentist but mine have been wonderful. Even the kids loved going, when they were little. My 6 year old still loves going, for some reason, and always "can't wait" until it's time to go to the dentist. She takes off like it's Santa Claus when they call her name. Of course she wants to be a dentist when she grows up. Dentists have this power over people like me, you can break us or be a hero in our eyes. Marie >> That's how I feel. Whether the guy is too busy or too arrogant or too >> indifferent, it won't be a good fit for me. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >in our eyes. >Marie That's a good point. It occurred to me that the problem may not be the dentist at all. It may just be a bored or hostile office manager and the dentist doesn't know anything about it. Still, I take responsibility for my front office staff and check periodically that they are putting a good face on the business. I have since called 2 other dentists. One is a office with 2 dentists. When I asked for 10 minutes to meet the dentist, the receptionist took the trouble to find a time when they were *both* available to talk to me. That was a welcome relief from my previous experience. The other dentist was also more than happy to find a time to meet me. In all cases, I have said that I would come in at their convenience including at the end of the day or at lunch. >Dentists have this power over people like me, you can break us or be a hero >in our eyes. >Marie Sorry, no one has 'power' over you unless *you* grant it. > Me, too. Not every response was dismissive, though. I guess I should've said "some" of the answers. Steve is always pleasant and informative. A dentist can't be good unless he understands the fear of some people (like me). > That's how I feel. Whether the guy is too busy or too arrogant or too > indifferent, it won't be a good fit for me. I can see being really busy -- that's the case with the one I'm going to talk to next month. But the arrogance is unacceptable. That's what I ran into with this last guy. I should've been more aware. The office manager was cold and unfriendly. That should've raised a red flag. Good luck! I'm sure you'll find a dentist who will be receptive to the idea of an interview. If they don't want to talk to me first, I'm not interested. >Wow! I'm surprised at these answers. I'm going to interview a >dentist in January. I would be surprised at being charged very much >for this. The last successful interview I did with a dentist cost me >$25. He sat and talked to me for about 1/2 an hour. When I told him >I was very scared, he looked at me and said "You know, I am too." OK, >so he had me at hello. There's a big difference between someone coming in who says they have fears and someone who is adversarial and trying to play one dentist off of another. >>Wow! I'm surprised at these answers. I'm going to interview a >>dentist in January. I would be surprised at being charged very much [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >fears and someone who is adversarial and trying to play one dentist >off of another. Playing one dentist off [against] another? It's called capitalism. Why do you think you should be exempt from competition (besides laziness and arrogance)? This is the attitude that brought about managed care. >>> Wow! I'm surprised at these answers. I'm going to interview a >>> dentist in January. I would be surprised at being charged very much [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > laziness and arrogance)? This is the attitude that brought about > managed care. Capitolism? Or arrogance? Please explain. Steve >>>> Wow! I'm surprised at these answers. I'm going to interview a >>>> dentist in January. I would be surprised at being charged very much [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Capitolism? Or arrogance? Please explain. Capitalism was in one paragraph, arrogance in another. It's not a choice. They were referring to different things. >>>>> Wow! I'm surprised at these answers. I'm going to interview a >>>>> dentist in January. I would be surprised at being charged very much [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Capitalism was in one paragraph, arrogance in another. It's not a > choice. They were referring to different things. Maybe you can explain how arrogance brought about managed care. Steve >>>>>> Wow! I'm surprised at these answers. I'm going to interview a >>>>>> dentist in January. I would be surprised at being charged very much [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Maybe you can explain how arrogance brought about managed care. Sure thing. It wasn't the sole cause, but it was a major cause. Doctors (more than dentists) have long believed they were godlike, were above everyone else (witness your buddy, Brian's horror at actually having to compete with other dentists for my business), treated patients and staff like lower forms of life, and felt they could charge whatever they liked. When corporations started paying for health care, they also started looking at costs. Doctors (along with dentists) were horrified at being asked to justify their work. So, the insurance companies, no angels themselves, started imposing bureaucracy. Now we have HIPAA and no one is happy. Doctors are still arrogant a.sholes (as a group) and, even though I also suffer with managed care, enjoy seeing doctors get jerked around a bit. There was a time when the AMA forbade advertising. They were above crass capitalism, except they loved to bill. Bastards. >>>>>>> Wow! I'm surprised at these answers. I'm going to interview a >>>>>>> dentist in January. I would be surprised at being charged very much [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > There was a time when the AMA forbade advertising. They were above > crass capitalism, except they loved to bill. Bastards. This is a common conception of medical insurance, but it's incomplete. Medical insurance is best looked at tax-advantaged compensation, because that is what it is. In effect, dollars went from the employer to the insurance company directly, instead of via the employee. In the early days of traditional medical insurance benefits were based on UCR (usual, customary and reasonable) fees which were supposed to have been obtained from actual market data. Doctors would charge what the market would bear, and of course if the insurance companies were paying, the doctors would take. Managed care was of course a method to manage expenses, not care. Those doctors who could opt out did not participate in these plans. In areas with a relative oversupply of doctors insurance companies could pretty much dictate fees--especially if there was one or two big employers in town. It was not as easy in large urban areas with diversified economies. Some doctors tried to organize to shun these plans. The Federal Trade Commission aggressively prosecuted any attempts by doctors to organize (while allowing their friends in the insurance industry to effectively set fees where they controlled a large market share. So the government was more than a little selective about where it found anti-competitive practices. Where the insurance companies controlled large parts of the market and squeezed the doctors, the doctors moved out of these areas, leaving them with poor access to medical care. Meanwhile, managed care companies tried to move to an HMO concept, which when conducted in self-contained clinics hired doctors as employees, severely limiting medical care. These were often the youngest, least-experienced doctors who could not establish a working situation elsewhere. They were usually foreign trained. When operated in participating private practices, this actually transferred the insurance function from the insurance company to the doctor. Doctors had an incentive to deny care, and the less care they provided the more of the HMO dollars they retained. Now employers are finding it difficult to maintain even managed-care benefits, and anyone with a managed care plan has seen deductibles rise, copays increase, yearly maximum benefits static or decline. Doctors have been ending their participation in droves. It's easy to see where this is headed--the end of managed care as we know it. It is hard to see the doctors as the culprits in all this, no matter how comfortable it may be to see them that way. It's also difficult to see how managed care contributed to an open and free market, unless it's how doctors and patients are continually opting or being forced out. I've known arrogant doctors. I've also known doctors who are wonderful people. There is no reason overall to think they should be any better or worse than (for example) librarians, teachers, salespeople, or artists. When I see someone demonize doctors (or anyone else) "as a group", I know I am dealing either with frustration, anger or bigotry, and someone has to take a reality check. A couple of notes: HIPAA relates to electronic transmission of medical information. It does not relate to fees, managed care etc. except in so far as information related to medical care is transmitted. Second, most professions restricted advertising. This was found to be a first amendment violation in a 1977 Supreme Court decision involving a claim by attorneys against a State Bar: http://www.oyez.org/cases/1970-1979/1976/1976_76_316/ Steve A well stated and thoughtful analysis. Thank you very much SB. If the liberals/utopians/communists succeed in their mandatory health care agenda, we will see the death of medical education in the US and will eventually see a dearth of practitioners except for the alties. Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive that it takes to get an advanced degree to be a practitioner settle for a McSalary ? I'd rather build cars. Whoops ! Even that ain't looking so great these days. > This is a common conception of medical insurance, but it's incomplete. > Medical insurance is best looked at tax-advantaged compensation, [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > >Steve >A well stated and thoughtful analysis. >Thank you very much SB. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive that it takes >to get an advanced degree to be a practitioner settle for a McSalary ? More arrogance and nacrissistic entitlement, plus some laughable ignorance about political philosophies. You don't deserve any particular salary just because you went to graduate school. This is a capitalistic society = supply and demand. You need to decide whether you want to be a capitalist, in which case you deserve nothing, or a socialist, in which case you only deserve what you need, or some such crap. You can't have it both ways. Anyway, a dental degree is not that hard to get. 99% of dentist could not pass most upper division physics courses, let alone get a PhD in physics. I guess physicists should earn twice what dentists earn. Get real. >>A well stated and thoughtful analysis. >>Thank you very much SB. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Get real. Are you a nuclear physicist? What do you do for a living? It would be interesting to see something verifiable. Somehow I now suspect you are some envious malcontent living in a basement somewhere. Have you actually gone through dental school? If not, how do you know? I suspect you may well fade into the sunset rather than answering. >>>A well stated and thoughtful analysis. >>>Thank you very much SB. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Are you a nuclear physicist? What do you do for a living? It would be >interesting to see something verifiable. No, but I've had at least 10 times as many physics courses as you have. >Somehow I now suspect you are some envious malcontent living in a >basement somewhere. I know that would make you feel better, but, no. >Have you actually gone through dental school? If not, how do you know? Well, I don't, of course. But then not having facts isn't stopping you either. >I suspect you may well fade into the sunset rather than answering. Wrong again. Is that strike 3? >No, but I've had at least 10 times as many physics courses as you >have. That would be a very large number then. Probably difficult to do without an advanced degree. Like to name them? >Well, I don't, of course. But then not having facts isn't stopping you >either. It's your version of "facts" that is incorrect. >Wrong again. Is that strike 3? The only one I fully believe is that you are still here. > Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive that it takes > to get an advanced degree to be a practitioner settle for a McSalary ? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Even that ain't looking so great these days. Shared a drink with a pal and an aquantaince of his last night. The aquantance brought a couple of buddies. One of which was UAW. He is firmly convinced that the UAW did not need to make any concessions and started getting beligerant and loud when someone else brought up the topic of everyone taking a hit in the auto world. Obvioulsy well trained by the union. Saw a blurb on the tube stating that Toyotas in the US were built for hundreds of dollars less than GM cars on labor cost alone. Then they mentioned the burden of retirement plans that had been promised over the years and it is easy to see how the 'foreign' makes have a huge advantage. I'm not saying the union workers don't deserve their pay, but there is no way the playing field is even. Steve > Shared a drink with a pal and an aquantaince of his last night. The > aquantance brought a couple of buddies. One of which was UAW. He is > firmly convinced that the UAW did not need to make any concessions and > started getting beligerant and loud when someone else brought up the > topic of everyone taking a hit in the auto world. Obvioulsy well > trained by the union. >Saw a blurb on the tube stating that Toyotas in the US were built >for hundreds of dollars less than GM cars on labor cost alone. Just bought a Tundra with the 5.7L V-8, it's great and US built. >Then they mentioned the burden of retirement plans that had been >promised over the years and it is easy to see how the 'foreign' >makes have a huge advantage. I more see it as the 'US' makers have been put to a huge disadvantage by the UAW. You forgot to mention the health 'insurance' thingy that The 3 are also commited to by contract. >I'm not saying the union workers don't deserve their pay, but there >is no way the playing field is even. Even for whom ? These guys are gonna put themselves out of a job. >Steve > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> topic of everyone taking a hit in the auto world. Obvioulsy well >> trained by the union. One has to question the sustainability of a society where non-skilled labor can ear more than highly trained skilled workers who risk their lives at work every day. Signature/ Amatus / > > Saw a blurb on the tube stating that Toyotas in the US were built [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> topic of everyone taking a hit in the auto world. Obvioulsy well trained >> by the union. >Shared a drink with a pal and an aquantaince of his last night. The >aquantance brought a couple of buddies. One of which was UAW. He is firmly >convinced that the UAW did not need to make any concessions and started >getting beligerant and loud when someone else brought up the topic of >everyone taking a hit in the auto world. Obvioulsy well trained by the >union. And when he is laid off, he gets 95% of his salary which is one problem. Another is that auto workers keep private insurance but when I get to 65, I have Medicare. Why should I be subsidizing a higher level for others who won't make enough concessions? >>Shared a drink with a pal and an aquantaince of his last night. The >>aquantance brought a couple of buddies. One of which was UAW. He is firmly [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Why should I be subsidizing a higher level for others who won't make >enough concessions? Agreed. And why would I pay anyone 95% of their wage/salary when they are not working ? This is true corporate welfare, and hurts the company. The UAW just doesn't seem to get that if you sink the ship *all* hands drown. This is worth repeating. > And why would I pay anyone 95% of their wage/salary when they > are not working ? This is true corporate welfare, and hurts the > company. The UAW just doesn't seem to get that if you sink the > ship *all* hands drown. Current UAW attitude is that they have made more than enough concessions at the last contract negotiation and there is no way they will give up anything else. Sad. Signature/ Amatus / > >>Shared a drink with a pal and an aquantaince of his last night. The [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Why should I be subsidizing a higher level for others who won't make > enough concessions? >Current UAW attitude is that they have made more than enough concessions at >the last contract negotiation and there is no way they will give up anything >else. > >Sad. The UAW has negotiated their membership right out of a job. Or very close to it. Chapter 11, re-organization, seems to me to be only option to stay in business. Otherwise, MI may be kaput. Already is. Sadly, they don't get it. Remember that management had as much to do with the problem as labor. Signature/ Amatus / > >>Current UAW attitude is that they have made more than enough concessions [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Otherwise, MI may be kaput. > Already is. Sadly, they don't get it. > > Remember that management had as much to do with the problem as labor. Absolutely. Ship might have survived being hit by one torpedo.... Steve >Already is. Sadly, they don't get it. > >Remember that management had as much to do with the problem as labor. And much of the failures of administration was caving in to labor. >>Already is. Sadly, they don't get it. >> >>Remember that management had as much to do with the problem as labor. > >And much of the failures of administration was caving in to labor. Doesn't caving usually lead to failure ? >Current UAW attitude is that they have made more than enough concessions at >the last contract negotiation and there is no way they will give up anything >else. > >Sad. Yes. They are hoping the new administration can reverse logic and history. I don't think it will happen. >>Current UAW attitude is that they have made more than enough concessions at >>the last contract negotiation and there is no way they will give up anything [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >I don't think it will happen. But damn, they are gonna try ! >But damn, they are gonna try ! Reinventing the wheel is always popular. It can be difficult to tell whether that is happening or whether they are just questioning what is perpetuated because nobody thinks to ask why it goes on. >>But damn, they are gonna try ! > >Reinventing the wheel is always popular. It can be difficult to tell >whether that is happening or whether they are just questioning what is >perpetuated because nobody thinks to ask why it goes on. So true. Glad to have another voice of reason in SMD. Welcome. BTW did you notice that dumb_fishie and Nucular NutCase vanished shortly after a very mild flame ? >BTW did you notice that >dumb_fishie and Nucular NutCase vanished shortly after >a very mild flame ? Could just be busy. Time will tell. >>BTW did you notice that >>dumb_fishie and Nucular NutCase vanished shortly after >>a very mild flame ? > >Could just be busy. Time will tell. Aye ! Merry Christmas, or Happy Hanukah ! Don't believe in 'kwaaanzaaaa' Invented by some wacky, freak, dude ~1964. Nevermind. >Aye ! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Nevermind. For me it's Merry Christmas. I don't know that Kwanzaa and Christmas are mutually exclusive. I'd like to see the auto manufacturers cancell all their union contracts, and hire temps for a couple weeks. SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . Shared a drink with a pal and an aquantaince of his last night. The aquantance brought a couple of buddies. One of which was UAW. He is firmly convinced that the UAW did not need to make any concessions and started getting beligerant and loud when someone else brought up the topic of everyone taking a hit in the auto world. Obvioulsy well trained by the union. >> Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive that it takes >> to get an advanced degree to be a practitioner settle for a McSalary ? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >everyone taking a hit in the auto world. Obvioulsy well trained by the >union. No surprise there. Even the head of the UAW says something similar. They are going to bankrupt the companies then there will be no jobs or pensions for them. Not to mention that when your product is inferior *and* more expensive the customer shops elsewhere. Government workers need to anticipate concessions as well. Signature/ Amatus / > >>> Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive that it takes [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Not to mention that when your product is inferior *and* more expensive > the customer shops elsewhere. >Sure thing. It wasn't the sole cause, but it was a major cause. >Doctors (more than dentists) have long believed they were godlike, >were above everyone else (witness your buddy, Brian's horror at >actually having to compete with other dentists for my business), >treated patients and staff like lower forms of life, and felt they >could charge whatever they liked. It is hardly horror and you are, deliberately I suspect, misrepresenting what I said. Obviously I am in competition with the myriad od other dentists in my area. It was your attitude and arrogance I have a problem with. >>> Capitalism was in one paragraph, arrogance in another. It's not a >>> choice. They were referring to different things. >> >>Maybe you can explain how arrogance brought about managed care. > >Sure thing. It wasn't the sole cause, but it was a major cause. Assumes facts not in evidence. >Doctors (more than dentists) have long believed they were godlike, >were above everyone else You haven't met that many to make such a conclusion. > (witness your buddy, Brian's horror at >actually having to compete with other dentists for my business), Actually, no one really needs or wants *your* business. The Olympics are competitions, dentistry is not. >treated patients and staff like lower forms of life, and felt they >could charge whatever they liked. Never have done the former, and have always done the latter. >When corporations started paying for >health care, they also started looking at costs. Really ? Did you know that the average dental insurance benefit of ~$1,000/ year has not significantly increased since its inception in approximately 1959 ? >Doctors (along with >dentists) were horrified at being asked to justify their work. Hahahaha, now that's funny, I don't care who you are. -Larry The Cable Guy >So, the >insurance companies, no angels themselves, started imposing >bureaucracy. Man you are cracking me up ! >Now we have HIPAA and no one is happy. Hey genious, it's HIPPA, and it doesn't affect practitioners except for an extra piece of paper or two. > Doctors are still >arrogant a.sholes (as a group) Class warfare again. Such a simpleton, you are. >and, even though I also suffer with >managed care, That is a personal choice on your part. >enjoy seeing doctors get jerked around a bit. Thank you Captain Obvious. >There was a time when the AMA forbade advertising. Nope, it was the state legislature that outlawed advertisment, and then changed their mind, again. > They were above >crass capitalism, except they loved to bill. Bastards. I love capitalism, but hate to bill. Pay me now, Biatch ! For the record it's HIPPA or is it HIPAA ? Health Insurance Portability and Privacy Act. Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act OK, my bad. And genius is misspelled. Still it's for the patient and only affects the practitioner as a couple of extra pieces of paper. Makes it a bit of a pain to transfer records, even at the patients request. Practitioners must have a jippo release. Was designed to protect HIV positive status of patients. As all, and everything, congress/government does, a miserable failure, and severly mucked up the works of unrelated things. The Congressional Law of Un-Intended Consequences is always operational. The only time US Citizens are safe is when Congress is Out of session. Mark these words. Mark them well. >>Now we have HIPAA and no one is happy. > >Hey genious, it's HIPPA, and it doesn't affect >practitioners except for an extra piece of paper or two. >> Capitalism was in one paragraph, arrogance in another. It's not a >> choice. They were referring to different things. > >Maybe you can explain how arrogance brought about managed care. > >Steve The arrogance of the care managers ? ;-]] >>>> Wow! I'm surprised at these answers. I'm going to interview a >>>> dentist in January. I would be surprised at being charged very much [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Steve Capitolism is the faith of the libs in DC right ? Hear that they are arrogant too ! Capitalism is a different kettle of fish entirely. >>>>> Wow! I'm surprised at these answers. I'm going to interview a >>>>> dentist in January. I would be surprised at being charged very much [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Capitalism is a different kettle of fish entirely. My bad. SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 Managed care is simply the insurance industry trying to get a bigger slice of the health care dollar while pretending to be a patient advocate. When people think dental treatment is like changing spark plugs or putting on a new water pump, it demonstrates how little the general population understands dentistry. D > Why do you think you should be exempt from competition (besides > laziness and arrogance)? This is the attitude that brought about > managed care. > Managed care is simply the insurance industry trying to get a bigger > slice of the health care dollar while pretending to be a patient [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > D I think Keith Walsh may disagree with you there, Bunky! Steve >> Why do you think you should be exempt from competition (besides >> laziness and arrogance)? This is the attitude that brought about >> managed care. SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >> Managed care is simply the insurance industry trying to get a bigger >> slice of the health care dollar while pretending to be a patient [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Steve What was that millivolt thingy again ? >>> Managed care is simply the insurance industry trying to get a bigger >>> slice of the health care dollar while pretending to be a patient [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > What was that millivolt thingy again ? 350 FREAKIN' MILLIVOLTS!!! SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >Managed care is simply the insurance industry trying to get a bigger >slice of the health care dollar while pretending to be a patient >advocate. That's part of it, but managed care would never have come into being if arrogant clinicians (all fields) hadn't been out of control and in many cases criminal. Medical excesses brought on managed care. Managed care is a horrible solution to a problem that could have been avoided. >When people think dental treatment is like changing spark plugs >or putting on a new water pump, it demonstrates how little >the general population understands dentistry. And arrogant, pompous medical professionals who talk down about other "lesser" professions and believe that they deserve special exemptions from market forces are why the US health care system is the disaster that it is. You and your attitude are a big part of the problem. >D > >> Why do you think you should be exempt from competition (besides >> laziness and arrogance)? This is the attitude that brought about >> managed care. >> Managed care is simply the insurance industry trying to get a bigger >> slice of the health care dollar while pretending to be a patient [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > from market forces are why the US health care system is the disaster > that it is. You and your attitude are a big part of the problem. Boy, are you barking up the wrong tree! Please explain how clinicians were exempt from market forces? And how exactly did managed care subject them to free market forces they otherwise wouldn't have been? Steve >> D >> >>> Why do you think you should be exempt from competition (besides >>> laziness and arrogance)? This is the attitude that brought about >>> managed care. >>> Managed care is simply the insurance industry trying to get a bigger >>> slice of the health care dollar while pretending to be a patient [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >were exempt from market forces? And how exactly did managed care >subject them to free market forces they otherwise wouldn't have been? You really need to read more carefully. I didn't say they were exempt from market forces, I said they thought they should be. I didn't say managed care subjects you to market forces. It's something of the opposite of market forces. I said it was the result of the arrogance of believing you were exempt from market forces and being normal human beings, rather than godlets. I can't decide if you are too stupid or too defended to follow a simple point. Whatever the reason, most of it has gone over your head. Lost cause. Lot's of insulting folks finding smd as of late. ;-( Your take on history is warped. Dentists have been trying to practice 'managed care' for decades. Take better care of your mouth. Get regular check ups. Watch your dietary habits. Fix problems when they are small and fix them the best way known. Follow those rules and dental insurance (which is really a pre-paid dental benefit...not insurance) would not be needed. The general population takes exception to such simple solutions. Managed care *may* have begun with noble intentions using this same basic system. Get patients to get regular check ups, educate themselves on how to take better care of their body, treat disease early, exercise, and end up with fewer bypass surgeries, joint replacements, strokes, heart attacks, etc. The public did not follow the rules and continued on their merry way to illness and early death. Blaming health care professionals is ridiculous. Steve Fawks > You really need to read more carefully. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > simple point. Whatever the reason, most of it has gone over your head. > Lost cause. Just a reminder to the "friends in/of smd" ... Happy December ... Yours truly, (The) Webby :-) > Lot's of insulting folks finding smd as of late. ;-( > Just a reminder to the "friends in/of smd" ... Happy December ... > > Yours truly, > (The) Webby :-) A little ray of sunshine sure helps. Thanks (and back at 'ya) Steve >> Just a reminder to the "friends in/of smd" ... Happy December ... >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Steve Ditto! Steve (2) SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 PLEASE, Please, PuhLeeZ... Forget the politically correct crapola ! Happy Hanukkah ! also spelled: Chanuka ! -and- Merry Christmas ! Blessings to all, Jewish and Christian alike. We are all His children. >Just a reminder to the "friends in/of smd" ... Happy December ... > >Yours truly, >(The) Webby :-) > >> Lot's of insulting folks finding smd as of late. ;-( I really meant *December* .... it isn't Hanukah yet; nor is it Christmas yet ... but it is Rodeo season in Las Vegas!! We just got back from a visit to The Convention Center where 400 or so vendors set up shop as part of the National Finals Rodeo (NFR) "experience". Lots of fun stuff but didn't bring anything home. So..... all you cowboys and cowgirls hang onto your hats if you're in Vegas cause the wind is howling!!!! Webby :-) > PLEASE, Please, PuhLeeZ... > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > > >> Lot's of insulting folks finding smd as of late. ;-( So sorry beautiful webby. My bad. After the PBR finals, I kinda forget about the PRCA. You did hear that it snowed in NOLA, right ? >I really meant *December* .... it isn't Hanukah yet; nor is it Christmas >yet ... but it is Rodeo season in Las Vegas!! [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> > >> >> Lot's of insulting folks finding smd as of late. ;-( Ahh..... no problem, Newbie. And it looks like the Rodeo events are over and the winners have been decorated! I think we'll be getting a little of the winter-wonderland right here on my street this week! My garden fountain is frozen this morning ... but the wind died down last night and the clouds moved on (to bother someone else). Up on Mt. Charleston, it is quite frigid and the snow is about ready for ski season (much to Mr. Webby's delight) ... the resort is only 30-45 minutes from here. And thank you for keeping me informed about the mountains around LA ... they do make for messy travel in the winter. If there are storms brewing you just have to take your chains and hope for the best or *book a flight*. Have to go to San Francisco in January and the mountains between here and there are why we are flying rather than driving (9-10 hr drive). Geography and meteorology and rodeos! Where's the dentistry in that??? Oh, I forgot one: the fights. Between rodeo and boxing ... we can hear them calling ... "is there a dentist in the house?" ;-) Where's my cup of coffee??? ... I think my nose can find it ... mmmmm. I'll pour you a virtual cup!! Enjoy! Webby :-) > So sorry beautiful webby. > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > >> > > >> >> Lot's of insulting folks finding smd as of late. ;-( [cut] > Geography and meteorology and rodeos! Where's the dentistry in that??? > Oh, I forgot one: the fights. Between rodeo and boxing ... we can hear [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Webby :-) [cut] Hey Newbie, do you still take yours with cream? (yes, I read...) ;-) Webby >[cut] >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Webby Yes, heavy cream, and 1/2 tsp sugar. > >[cut] > >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Yes, heavy cream, and 1/2 tsp sugar. Very well then... grab your virtual cup; it's just as you like it!! :-)) >PLEASE, Please, PuhLeeZ... > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >We are all His children. I thought I detected some christian illogic in some of your previous effluence. What is it about you people that makes you think you have the right to speak for everyone? Morons. >I thought I detected some christian illogic in some of your previous >effluence. What is it about you people that makes you think you have >the right to speak for everyone? Morons. What is it about "you people" who think others shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions? >> I thought I detected some christian illogic in some of your previous >> effluence. What is it about you people that makes you think you have >> the right to speak for everyone? Morons. > > What is it about "you people" who think others shouldn't be allowed to > express their opinions? Didn't Perot get into hot water for referring to "you people"? Steve > >> I thought I detected some christian illogic in some of your previous > >> effluence. What is it about you people that makes you think you have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Steve Why of why didn't I see this coming before I posted my greeting? Sheesh.... At least *I know* that I meant no harm; and I am certain there are others who also *know* this. Webby On Dec 13, 11:29 am, New...@bix.nex wrote: > On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:27:08 -0800, Nucular Reaction > The Olympics are competitions, dentistry is not. You have no clue then. This stuff is taken from various separate posts because their are so many: new - whatever @bix.net wrote: > Methinks your own ballooning head is due to sigmoid retention. > Bet yer eyes are brown. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Endeavour to be less niggardly, Izzy. Your own ballooning head is showing. Nuclear reaction said: >> I said it was the result >>of the arrogance of believing you were >>exempt from >>market forces and >>being normal human beings, rather than godlets. >'godlets' that's cute. >Did you find that in the "Elven To Dwarven Dictionary" ? You know, I would say that you really are an arse, but that would be too inelegant for you. Instead I will say that the vast number of your posts may indicate that your head may be somewhere dark and dank and not very pleasant, instead of examining dental charts which would be far more useful. Seriously, the level of usefulness of dialog is a two-way street. >Seriously, the level of usefulness of dialog is >a two-way street. When I see some coming from you or Nucular Nutcase, I'll let you know. >>>> I thought I detected some christian illogic in some of your previous >>>> effluence. What is it about you people that makes you think you have [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Webby ****I know that too, Webby!**** Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >> >> I thought I detected some christian illogic in some of your previous >> >> effluence. What is it about you people that makes you think you have [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Webby I was referring to the first one who used the term. >>I thought I detected some christian illogic in some of your previous >>effluence. What is it about you people that makes you think you have >>the right to speak for everyone? Morons. > >What is it about "you people" who think others shouldn't be allowed to >express their opinions? You chose to miss the point again. Opine away. Just don't speak for everyone. My Hindu friends are children of different Gods. > PLEASE, Please, PuhLeeZ... > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >>> Lot's of insulting folks finding smd as of late. ;-( From ours to yours. > Just a reminder to the "friends in/of smd" ... Happy December ... > > Yours truly, > (The) Webby :-) > >> Lot's of insulting folks finding smd as of late. ;-( Missing you all .... best wishes for the holidays and the new year!! W > From ours to yours. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > >> Lot's of insulting folks finding smd as of late. ;-( >Lot's of insulting folks finding smd as of late. ;-( There are unfortunately. I used to belong here because there are some people who have legitimate questions and problems. However I left because the jerks overwhelmed the reasonable people. >>Lot's of insulting folks finding smd as of late. ;-( > >There are unfortunately. I used to belong here because there are some >people who have legitimate questions and problems. However I left >because the jerks overwhelmed the reasonable people. But we require the voice of reason such as yours in SMD. The group has been slow as of late, but there is no reason that we cannot discuss dental treatment modalities amongst the regular practitioners. >But we require the voice of reason such as yours in SMD. Thank you. >The group has been slow as of late, but there is no reason >that we cannot discuss dental treatment modalities amongst >the regular practitioners. There are better places to do that. I spend most of my time on these topics on one of them. If you have any interest e-mail me privately. >>>> Managed care is simply the insurance industry trying to get a bigger >>>> slice of the health care dollar while pretending to be a patient [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > simple point. Whatever the reason, most of it has gone over your head. > Lost cause. Be consistent--always go with stupid. Steve >> I can't decide if you are too stupid or too defended to follow a >> simple point. Whatever the reason, most of it has gone over your head. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Steve But that only applies to 47% right ? Am unsure, can't find a statistic yet. > >>>> Managed care is simply the insurance industry trying to get a bigger > >>>> slice of the health care dollar while pretending to be a patient > >>>> advocate. > >>> That's part of it, but managed care would never have come into being > >>> if arrogant clinicians (all fields) hadn't been out of control and in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >>>> or putting on a new water pump, it demonstrates how little > >>>> the general population understands dentistry. Excuse me - somebody really missed the point. Comparing dentistry to spark plugs has nothing to do with either, it's about honesty. It's about being honest with the patient about what they really need, not about racking up money. When it comes to honesty, I don't think the medical field should be given total free reign, they should be held just as accountable as a car mechanic. You are not above it. >> >>>> Managed care is simply the insurance industry trying to get a bigger >> >>>> slice of the health care dollar while pretending to be a patient [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Excuse me - somebody really missed the point. They are missing the point intentionally because the real point, that they don't want to be accountable, is inconvenient. >Comparing dentistry >to spark plugs has nothing to do with either, it's about honesty. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >think the medical field should be given total free reign, they should >be held just as accountable as a car mechanic. You are not above it. Ah, but they believe they are. Well, many of them do. >> On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:07:12 -0600, Dartos <tuthjockey@myturbonet.com> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >You really need to read more carefully. Actually reading for comprehension is one of my fortés. >I didn't say they were exempt from market forces, I said they thought >they should be. And who exactly is "they" ? Which clinicians ? All of them ? Really ? Every Single One ? Do you even know a majority (>50%) of clinicians, of any stripe, in your own city ? >I didn't say managed care subjects you to market forces. It's >something of the opposite of market forces. Smarten up BillyBlob, 'managed care' only benefits the sellers of the "plan". Employers bought into it because it was cheaper than indemnity ins. The patients and practitioners are the ones who get the shaft. > I said it was the result >of the arrogance of believing you were exempt from market forces and >being normal human beings, rather than godlets. 'godlets' that's cute. Did you find that in the "Elven To Dwarven Dictionary" ? >I can't decide if you are too stupid or too defended to follow a >simple point. Whatever the reason, most of it has gone over your head. >Lost cause. ITYM 'defensive'. Not to mention that a double 'too' is redundant. Two Toos, perhaps you meant the plural ofTutu. A dance garment for girls, you know. Methinks your own ballooning head is due to sigmoid retention. Bet yer eyes are brown. Your egalitarian English is destitute of elegance; and your punctuation is pitifullly poor. Endeavour to be less niggardly, Izzy. You and your attitude are a big part of the problem. >>D You do not know me or my attitude, so that statement is entirely false. Steve Fawks > You and your attitude are a big part of the problem. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Steve Fawks At least NR has started an interesting thread. We haven't had a good debate in SMD for a while. Yet, agree with the first part of your statement, and believe the second half. But, is anything truly *entirely* true or false ? Sorry, my existentialism escaped for a moment. ;-]] >>Managed care is simply the insurance industry trying to get a bigger >>slice of the health care dollar while pretending to be a patient [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >if arrogant clinicians (all fields) hadn't been out of control and in >many cases criminal. OH really ? >Medical excesses brought on managed care. Disagree, more about frivolous malpractice lawsuits. Tort reform was the answer, but the attorneys wouldn't have it. Most legislators are lawyers, doanchaknow. This brought on 'defensive' medicine. >Managed >care is a horrible solution to a problem that could have been avoided. Agreed. What do you propose as a solution ? >>When people think dental treatment is like changing spark plugs >>or putting on a new water pump, it demonstrates how little [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >from market forces are why the US health care system is the disaster >that it is. Sounds like you are a frustrated semi-professional. Did you not get accepted to med school ? Everyone is under pressure from market forces, even the Sanitation Engineers. No one is exempt. It's the politicians who have convinced the unwashed smelly <thanks Harry Reid> masses that health care is a "right". Not in the constitution. Come to think of it *education* is not mentioned either. Read it sometime. US healthcare is the best in the world. Your characterization as a 'disaster' is not only wrong, but simplistic and asinine. >You and your attitude are a big part of the problem. Disagree, Dartos is a well respected SMD reg. It's the myriad of deluded fools like yourself that is the *problem*. >>D >> >>> Why do you think you should be exempt from competition (besides >>> laziness and arrogance)? Dentists are not *exempt* from competition, neither are you, or anyone you know. >>>This is the attitude that brought about >>> managed care. Assumes facts not in evidence. Just for your edification: that is a very large wagon of manure that you are hauling around. Bet you don't see many buzzards. > US healthcare is the best in the world. Curious as to how you define "best"? Just wondering. John >> US healthcare is the best in the world. > > Curious as to how you define "best"? Just wondering. > > John Now, let's not bait the "newb". We know where we stand, politically. Steve >>> US healthcare is the best in the world. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Steve Wise advice. I will bring you around eventually SB. ;-]] >> US healthcare is the best in the world. > >Curious as to how you define "best"? Just wondering. > >John From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 : Best \Best\ (b[e^]st), a.; superl. of Good. [AS. besta, best, contr. from betest, betst, betsta; akin to Goth. batists, OHG. pezzisto, G. best, beste, D. best, Icel. beztr, Dan. best, Sw. b[aum]st. This word has no connection in origin with good. See Better.] 1. Having good qualities in the highest degree; most good, kind, desirable, suitable, etc.; most excellent; as, the best man; the best road; the best cloth; the best abilities. [1913 Webster] When he is best, he is a little worse than a man. --Shak. [1913 Webster] Heaven's last, best gift, my ever new delight. --Milton. [1913 Webster] 2. Most advanced; most correct or complete; as, the best scholar; the best view of a subject. [1913 Webster] 3. Most; largest; as, the best part of a week. [1913 Webster] >>> US healthcare is the best in the world. >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > 3. Most; largest; as, the best part of a week. > [1913 Webster] Do you still stand by your statement? >>>> US healthcare is the best in the world. >>> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >Do you still stand by your statement? Are you kidding? Mere data will have no effect on him. He's a true believer. He probably speaks to god, so he has "truth". And, if that doesn't work, he'll edit your comments to change the meaning and then argue against that. Stay tuned... On Dec 13, 11:11 am, New...@bix.nex wrote: > US healthcare is the best in the world. No. It's really good, but it's also really spotty. >On Dec 13, 11:11 am, New...@bix.nex wrote: > >> US healthcare is the best in the world. > >No. It's really good, but it's also really spotty. And as a price-performer, it's nowhere near the top. Neither are cars, refrigerators, TV's, jewelry, etc. >>On Dec 13, 11:11 am, New...@bix.nex wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > And as a price-performer, it's nowhere near the top. >Managed care is simply the insurance industry trying to get a bigger >slice of the health care dollar while pretending to be a patient >advocate. Methinks that 'managed care' is when only the *managers* don't get screwed. >When people think dental treatment is like changing spark plugs >or putting on a new water pump, it demonstrates how little [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> laziness and arrogance)? This is the attitude that brought about >> managed care. >Playing one dentist off [against] another? It's called capitalism. > >Why do you think you should be exempt from competition (besides >laziness and arrogance)? This is the attitude that brought about >managed care. You're missing the point. And if you think managed care and insurance companies are looking out for the patient, you have an erroneous view. > On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 06:48:06 -0800, Nucular Reaction > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > And if you think managed care and insurance companies are looking out > for the patient, you have an erroneous view. GENAU! >> On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 06:48:06 -0800, Nucular Reaction >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > GENAU! Gezundtheit! >>Playing one dentist off [against] another? It's called capitalism. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >You're missing the point. And what point is that? >And if you think managed care and insurance companies are looking out >for the patient, you have an erroneous view. I never said anything remotely like that. The insurance companies care even less than the arrogant medical profession does. What I said is that you brought this on yourselves and you deserve what you are getting. > There's a big difference between someone coming in who says they have > fears and someone who is adversarial and trying to play one dentist > off of another. This is true. I try to just talk about how I feel and gauge how the dentist reacts to my feelings. Does he listen? Does he really focus on what I'm saying? > $25. He sat and talked to me for about 1/2 an hour. When I told him > I was very scared, he looked at me and said "You know, I am too." OK, > so he had me at hello. What was he scared of? Marie >> $25. He sat and talked to me for about 1/2 an hour. When I told him >> I was very scared, he looked at me and said "You know, I am too." OK, >> so he had me at hello. > > What was he scared of? > Marie Sometimes it's reassuring to patients, scared as many of them are of dental treatment, to know that certain patients scare the crap out of us. Steve On Dec 11, 7:36 am, Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinm...@earthlink.net> wrote: > Sometimes it's reassuring to patients, scared as many of them are of > dental treatment, to know that certain patients scare the crap out of us. > > Steve LOL! I can always count on you to lighten up the moment here. I'm sure that certain patients can be scary. > On Dec 11, 7:36 am, Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinm...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > LOL! I can always count on you to lighten up the moment here. I'm > sure that certain patients can be scary. That's not even counting the couple of times I was assaulted. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > That's not even counting the couple of times I was assaulted. I can't imagine assaulting a dentist! Or anyone, actually, but then I am a civilized person. I guess you'd have weird patients/customers no matter what line of work you are in. Marie >> That's not even counting the couple of times I was assaulted. > > I can't imagine assaulting a dentist! Or anyone, actually, but then I am > a civilized person. I guess you'd have weird patients/customers no > matter what line of work you are in. > Marie Only happened a couple of times (not counting the kid who bit me so hard he drew blood through the glove). Once was an elderly patient who claimed after smacking me in the face that it had been an accident. The other was a team of two hooligans who got bent out of shape when I wouldn't write one a prescription for pain meds. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 It sounds like the elderly guy lost his composure for a moment. The hooligans, I hope they had a couple years of time to detox, at the Greybar. SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . Only happened a couple of times (not counting the kid who bit me so hard he drew blood through the glove). Once was an elderly patient who claimed after smacking me in the face that it had been an accident. The other was a team of two hooligans who got bent out of shape when I wouldn't write one a prescription for pain meds. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 On Dec 11, 1:08 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld <bornfeldm...@dentaltwins.com> wrote: > Only happened a couple of times (not counting the kid who bit me so > hard he drew blood through the glove). [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Steve Well, that's just awful. We can swap horror stories. When I was 11, a new dentist took over for our sweet, kind dentist who was retiring. (Why do they always retire as soon as you come to trust them?) Anyway, this guy was not sweet or kind. He didn't baby me the way the old dentist did by rubbing some numbing stuff in my mouth before giving me a shot. So I wouldn't let this guy give me a shot, and he started to drill. Well, of course, I was in awful pain and crying. His reaction was to slap my face to subdue me. Another dentist recently told me that they actually taught this in dental school. Egad. Now you know why I'm always so scared. > On Dec 11, 1:08 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > recently told me that they actually taught this in dental school. > Egad. Now you know why I'm always so scared. Yes. In the "old days'. 1970's. Restraint (aka "papoose") boards, hand over mouth, and yes the "towel in the mouth" trick. Very unpleasant. That's why periodontology was so appealing to me vis-a-vis pedodontics, which to me as a young man, was equivalent to sanctioned child abuse. Hmm, lets present a "possible" scenario. It is autumn 1981. You are a dentist stationed in B...merhaven, BRD, as a general dentist. You have had a 1 year AEGD internship/residency from 1979 - 1980, so you have treated a good subset of patients. An older gentleman, brought on board from Georgia in 1981 by the US Army as a 'pedodontist", works in a very large room with a chair right next to you. You are young and impressionable. At PENN Dental, you were taught that "specialists" savaient toute, and could make NO mistakes. So here is this 42 y.o. Georgia white boy, a BOARD CERTIFIED ( today I would say, SO?) stuffing a towel down the throat of a 5 year old S-C-R-E-A-M-I-N-G kid. What do you do? It was, after all, taught at the vaunted U of PA, and this guy has EXTRA training in this specific field, and, unfortunately most importantly, the Army has taught you that you WILL NOT succeed in civilian dental practice, but if you "stand-up in the canoe" you won't get your twenty years and be able to retire at age 47 with a nice pension. I still remember this like yesterday. I still REMEMBER. That kid is almost certainly a dental phobic at age 35. <<Yes. In the "old days'. 1970's. Restraint (aka "papoose") boards, hand over mouth, and yes the "towel in the mouth" trick. Very unpleasant. That's why periodontology was so appealing to me vis-a-vis pedodontics, which to me as a young man, was equivalent to sanctioned child abuse. Hmm, lets present a "possible" scenario. It is autumn 1981. You are a dentist stationed in B...merhaven, BRD, as a general dentist. You have had a 1 year AEGD internship/residency from 1979 - 1980, so you have treated a good subset of patients. An older gentleman, brought on board from Georgia in 1981 by the US Army as a 'pedodontist", works in a very large room with a chair right next to you. You are young and impressionable. At PENN Dental, you were taught that "specialists" savaient toute, and could make NO mistakes. So here is this 42 y.o. Georgia white boy, a BOARD CERTIFIED ( today I would say, SO?) stuffing a towel down the throat of a 5 year old S-C-R-E-A-M-I-N-G kid. What do you do? It was, after all, taught at the vaunted U of PA, and this guy has EXTRA training in this specific field, and, unfortunately most importantly, the Army has taught you that you WILL NOT succeed in civilian dental practice, but if you "stand-up in the canoe" you won't get your twenty years and be able to retire at age 47 with a nice pension. I still remember this like yesterday. I still REMEMBER. That kid is almost certainly a dental phobic at age 35.>> How horrible!!! I know that my mother has a horrible phobia. She was knocked around as a child by her dentist. I was treated badly only one time when the dentist hurt me, and I cried(and I was maybe 6 years old!?). He made fun of me for being a baby and I had to sit in some special chair. Dentistry and obstetrics have come a loooong way! Did people back then not realize that treating young patients badly would cause them to be scared of going as adults? And, as I've said, my children LOVED going to the dentist for the first few years, and my 6 year old still gets really excited when it's almost dentist day. I never forced them to go back alone like I see some moms pushing their screaming kids back there. My youngest didn't even want me to go back with her ever, even her first visit. But then, she does want to be a dentist when she grows up, probably so she can torture me. Marie >Dentistry and >obstetrics have come a loooong way! Yeah, now there are different chairs. >> On Dec 11, 1:08 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld >> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > I still remember this like yesterday. I still REMEMBER. That kid is > almost certainly a dental phobic at age 35. And when I entered the elevator at NYUCD to go up to the dean's office for my admission interview (fall '72) they looked at me in my little black interview suit and snidely said "Go to Penn! Steve >> On Dec 11, 1:08 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld >> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >I still remember this like yesterday. I still REMEMBER. That kid is >almost certainly a dental phobic at age 35. Can you say nightmare ? G's ! Have always believed in "Better Living Through Chemistry" myself. Noctec, Diazepam, N2O, or even GA. Treated a couple of very young sisters yesterday that were dental phobics from previous maltreatment. By being gentle and kind, and with profound anesthesia, a bit of simple explaination of what you are doing; you can 'convert' these types of children to very good patients. Would like to slug the previous dentist that treated these girls. Yeah, remember HOM and HOMAR. Wasn't taught the towel in the mouth abuse however. Have only seen the papoose boards in one office, they weren't used when I was working there. > On Dec 11, 1:08 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld > <bornfeldm...@dentaltwins.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > recently told me that they actually taught this in dental school. > Egad. Now you know why I'm always so scared. They have a word for that--assault. I used to teach at NYU--I once had to call a student out for getting rough with a patient. Some people shouldn't be dentists. Steve >>> That's not even counting the couple of times I was assaulted. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Steve Meet some friends of mine: Samuel Colt, and Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson. And as Clint E. once stated: "Nothing quite like a nice piece of Hickory." If someone even jokingly says they may hit me, I calmly state, in a serious mannner, "Then I must warn you that I hit back." And I mean it. Sorry to hear that. How did those couple times work out? SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . > LOL! I can always count on you to lighten up the moment here. I'm > sure that certain patients can be scary. That's not even counting the couple of times I was assaulted. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > Sorry to hear that. How did those couple times work out? I wasn't hurt. In the case with the drug seeker, I threw him out of the office. I was going to ignore it, but was convinced to call the police. I'd had this guy fill out a medical form, and the idiot filled out his real name. The police knew him, he'd just been released from prison the week before. Steve Pleased that you didn't get hurt. I heard a similar thing with guy filling out work application, and then robbing the store. Same concept. SignatureChristopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . Stormin Mormon wrote: > Sorry to hear that. How did those couple times work out? I wasn't hurt. In the case with the drug seeker, I threw him out of the office. I was going to ignore it, but was convinced to call the police. I'd had this guy fill out a medical form, and the idiot filled out his real name. The police knew him, he'd just been released from prison the week before. Steve > That's not even counting the couple of times I was assaulted. > >Steve Truly hope that's a joke. >> That's not even counting the couple of times I was assaulted. >> >> Steve > > Truly hope that's a joke. I wasn't really hurt. Not really a joke, but I can laugh about it now. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>> That's not even counting the couple of times I was assaulted. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Steve Glad for the first. Somewhat glad for the laugh. Not happy about "not a joke" though. Worked for a Doc when I was green that kept a .357 handy for 'difficult' patients. Story was he was gone when someone pulled a gun on the staff. Very likely a good thing he was absent. Good Ole Tough Navy Man from WWII. Hunt, fish, sail, outdoorsman extrodiare. Still miss him. Don't admire many, but he rated. >>> $25. He sat and talked to me for about 1/2 an hour. When I told him >>> I was very scared, he looked at me and said "You know, I am too." OK, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Sometimes it's reassuring to patients, scared as many of them are of >dental treatment, to know that certain patients scare the crap out of us. Unless it's just condescending blather. If a patient (not holding a gun) truly scares the crap out of you, you probably better out the drill down and take up something safer. What a croc. >>>> $25. He sat and talked to me for about 1/2 an hour. When I told him >>>> I was very scared, he looked at me and said "You know, I am too." OK, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > gun) truly scares the crap out of you, you probably better out the > drill down and take up something safer. What a croc. It's a bit late, but I'm open to suggestions. Steve >> Unless it's just condescending blather. If a patient (not holding a >> gun) truly scares the crap out of you, you probably better out the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Steve How about a managed care manager ? ;-]] > > $25. He sat and talked to me for about 1/2 an hour. When I told him > > I was very scared, he looked at me and said "You know, I am too." OK, > > so he had me at hello. > > What was he scared of? > Marie He was scared of dentists, too. That told me he understood. Some dentists really don't understand that. <<He was scared of dentists, too. That told me he understood. Some dentists really don't understand that.>> I never thought a dentist could be scared of going to the dentist. Why would one go into dentistry if he were scared of it himself? Marie > I never thought a dentist could be scared of going to the dentist. Why would > one go into dentistry if he were scared of it himself? > Marie I have no idea. I just know that he's afraid to have another dentist work on him. He always had his dental hygienist give him the shot before his dentist started to work. I can see why -- she's very good. No pain at all and a sweet, gentle nature. ><<He was scared of dentists, too. That told me he understood. Some >dentists really don't understand that.>> > >I never thought a dentist could be scared of going to the dentist. Why would >one go into dentistry if he were scared of it himself? >Marie One must face their fears, not run from them. >>> $25. He sat and talked to me for about 1/2 an hour. When I told him >>> I was very scared, he looked at me and said "You know, I am too." OK, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > He was scared of dentists, too. That told me he understood. Some > dentists really don't understand that. My observation is that doctors in general are pretty apprehensive as patients. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 On Dec 11, 12:53 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld <bornfeldm...@dentaltwins.com> wrote: > My observation is that doctors in general are pretty apprehensive as > patients. > > Steve I imagine that's because they know more about what can go wrong. > On Dec 11, 12:53 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld > <bornfeldm...@dentaltwins.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I imagine that's because they know more about what can go wrong. Maybe I'm just inferring from how I feel when my brother is working on me. Steve >> $25. He sat and talked to me for about 1/2 an hour. When I told him >> I was very scared, he looked at me and said "You know, I am too." OK, >> so he had me at hello. > >What was he scared of? >Marie The bill. >> >> What's so special about dentists? >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >about. I care about the majority of my "people" who have confidence in >me and my integrity. Sit on it! or Eat me! Whatever you like. Wow. Very professional. I suggest you post your reply in your office, if you even are a dentist. >>> I am in the process of looking for a new dentist. I got a >>> recommendation from a friend. I called the office and asked for about [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > types of contractors. They all (except exterminators) come out to my > house for free and make bids. This is convention and marketing. It is not right or wrong. > What's so special about dentists? > > And, more importantly, why did they lie to me about OHSA "law"? My guess is they lied to get you off their backs. > I'm going to spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars over many > years. If they can't invest 10 minutes to meet me, they don't want my > business. The structure of medical and dental fees is set up differently from contractors or attorneys. To a large extent they are influenced (if not directly set) by insurance companies. And you're wrong that your local dentists make their overhead "many times over". Most offices have an overhead over 70% of gross production. It does make sense at least on the face of it to meet your dentist before treatment starts. It is questionable how much you can really find out in 15 minutes though--you can see if the office looks clean, if the staff looks efficient. You may get an idea if the dentist's personality might clash with yours. I don't discount the possible benefits. But the other dentists are right--time is money. If the idea of interviewing doctors takes off, it will be figured into the fee schedule--as the contractors surely do. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 On Dec 9, 12:31 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld <bornfeldm...@dentaltwins.com> wrote: > > What's so special about dentists? > > > And, more importantly, why did they lie to me about OHSA "law"? > > My guess is they lied to get you off their backs. They will probably deny, that they said this too. > > I'm going to spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars over many > > years. If they can't invest 10 minutes to meet me, they don't want my > > business. > > The structure of medical and dental fees is set up differently from > contractors or attorneys. I agree that although attorneys give "free" consults they are looking for a big score. A dentist isn't going to get paid a million dollars for one patients dental work. In the case of a contractor they are negotiating for a large chunk of work, perhaps months and they may take unauthorized breaks, even watch your cable TV when you are gone I am told! >Fair? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >types of contractors. They all (except exterminators) come out to my >house for free and make bids. It's different. I don't know what you do but someone in sales works on a different basis. At one time I sold real estate. Much of the time was wasted but if a property I was involved with sold, I'd make a good bit. As a dentist, if there is time lost, there is no way to make it back. Attorneys also work on a different basis especially if they are contingency based. >What's so special about dentists? > >And, more importantly, why did they lie to me about OHSA "law"? I haven't the faintest ides. Could you have misunderstood or phrased the question to them in a different way than you presented it here? >I'm going to spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars over many >years. If they can't invest 10 minutes to meet me, they don't want my >business. I've met many patients with your attitude over the years. They usually are the ones who just waste my time and make comments like they are the ones paying my mortgage when I'm making expenses if I'm lucky. Incidentally, unless you are a particular dentist's accountant you have absolutely no idea of their income or expenses. >What's so special about dentists? If you have to ask... >And, more importantly, why did they lie to me about OHSA "law"? Ask them. >I'm going to spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars over many >years. If they can't invest 10 minutes to meet me, they don't want my >business. I offer a free 'consultation'. Five minutes max. If the patient then agrees to examination and radiographs, then there is a fee for those services. It ain't about money to me, it's about if our personalities mesh. >I am in the process of looking for a new dentist. I got a >recommendation from a friend. I called the office and asked for about [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >allow the dentist to talk to me about becoming a patient without >filling out the intake form? I have now called 3 other dentists. All of them were happy to talk to me for 10 minutes. None mentioned OSHA. I have completed 2 interviews. One was a 2-dentist practice. They insisted on both talking to me. That interview lasted almost half an hour. I was satisfied after about 10-15 minutes, but one of them kept talking about various aspects of the business. I am persuaded that that first dentist, and the jerks here who defended his arrogant style, are actually not the norm. Good news. I am even more convinced that an interview is required to weed out the jerks. >> I am in the process of looking for a new dentist. I got a >> recommendation from a friend. I called the office and asked for about [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > am even more convinced that an interview is required to weed out the > jerks. Thanks for the update. Not really surprised you had dentists willing to talk to you. Steve >>> I am in the process of looking for a new dentist. I got a >>> recommendation from a friend. I called the office and asked for about [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Thanks for the update. Not really surprised you had dentists willing >to talk to you. I wouldn't have been either. In fact, I was surprised by the reaction of the first one. Then I got the hostile response here, so I began to wonder if there might be something wrong with the profession. It only takes a few bad apples, as they say... > I am persuaded that that first dentist, and the jerks here who > defended his arrogant style, are actually not the norm. Good news. I > am even more convinced that an interview is required to weed out the > jerks. Hope everything works out. Caveat emptor....just because they talk the talk doesn't mean they can/will walk the walk. ;-) D >> I am persuaded that that first dentist, and the jerks here who >> defended his arrogant style, are actually not the norm. Good news. I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > ;-) > D Sometimes they can talk and walk--just not at the same time. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > Sometimes they can talk and walk--just not at the same time. > > Steve LOL Just referring to the silver tongued slick Willies who can baffle everyone with bull sh** yet really have nothing special to offer, not the ones who have trouble chewing bubblegum and walking at the same time. D >>> I am persuaded that that first dentist, and the jerks here who >>> defended his arrogant style, are actually not the norm. Good news. I [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Steve Just don't mention chewing gum ! ;-]] |
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