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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / October 2008Idiotic regulations of greedy, inept and incompetent state dental boards in USA
This is a nice web site : http://overseasdentist.com/ I am a licensed dentist in California , graduated in Europe , got my CA license 10 years ago , when additional education (2 years) was not required in this state( I had to pass the horrible bench test exam for foreign DDS though , passing rate was only 5% and the requirements insane, most foreign or American school grads would fail that test) I have also passed the most feared clinical exam at that time - the California State Board clinical examination, where I met USC , UCLA grads taking the test 2nd, 3rd or even 4th time. NERB is a joke compared to the one I had to go through in order to get the CA DDS license. Imagine that after practicing for 10 years in California, if I want to move to any other state , I have to do 2 more years of school, regardless of my US work experience /all the dental examinations I have passed already. The 2 years advanced standing programs for foreign DDS are EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO GET IN , 600 dentists apply, only 15 get in for each program. Even if I want to work as a dental hygienist in other state, I have to do 2 years of school learning how to clean teeth even though I am a licensed dentist in CALIFORNIA.How idiotic does that sound?? A California licensed DDS cannot practice at least hygiene in another state, except Florida Further more , let's say I become a periodontist ( 3 years of training in America). Guess what? If I want to move to NJ, NY and most other states, I have to go to school again , even though I have American specialty training!! So I am an American trained periodontist in California, but New York dental board sends me back to school, even though periodontology is the same in NY and CA. This is like having an American trained cardiologist practicing in CA being sent back to medical school in order to practice in NY . I am asking the dentists from NY Dental Board: Does that sound right to you? Furthermore: Let's say I am a foreign dental school graduate, licensed in CA , specialist in periodontology (3 years of American school education) and I would like to practice dental hygiene in NY. GUESS WHAT ? I have to do two years of dental hygiene school in order to be licensed as a hygienist in NY ,even though I am an American trained periodontist in CA I have a question for NY and other state dental boards. Are you people in your right mind? Shame on you,members of NY board of dental examiners ,you are a disgrace to the profession of dentist in America.You treat your CA colleagues like animals, not like fellow dentists. You would allow some dentists to practice in NY after 1 year of residency without passing a state clinical exam, but you would not allow an American trained endodontist to do root canals in NY . You know very well this is bullshit and against common sense, but you do not give a sh.t , you are just against any competition and could care less about consumers. Dare to explain to me , members of NY Board of Dental Examiners, why an endodontist , who went for 2-3 years to an AMERICAN endo residency , should not do RCT's in NY , because he went to dental school in the UK. He only does RCT's , and he learned how to do them in the US , after he completed his UK education. You tell me, greedy , disgraceful members of NY Board of Dental Examiners, why an US educated periodontist, licensed in CA, cannot be a AT LEAST a dental hygienist in NY! I'll make sure that this gets to all NEW YORK legislators, I will show them how you "protect" NY consumers! A licensed periodontist in CA cannot be at least a hygienist in your state? ARE YOU NUTS?Are you out of your mind? Do you really care about consumers, or all you care about is your own greed ( you do not want anyone to have a slice of the pie , so you crush any competition) WAKE UP , American dental boards! We live in a global economy, you should allow dentists from Europe, UK , Australia and New Zealand to practice in USA without going through all the BS you ask them to go through! Those countries do not put the American dentists through all that supplemental 2 year crap you ask UK /European dentists to go through! Do not worry , greedy members of state dental boards, US will not be flooded with UK dentists, they make good money in UK . http://www.pr.com/press-release/32822 Four Out of Five Dentists Favor Universal Dental Licensure: The Wealthy Dentist Survey This is also a message for American legislators: end this disgusting greedy dental board regulations once and for all!! Pass Universal Dental Licensure legislation!! http://www.fff.org/freedom/1096d.asp "Dentists have perennially used licensing laws to drill consumers. Economist Lawrence Shepard of the University of California at Davis estimates that unjustified state government restrictions on dental licensing add between 12 and 15 percent to the cost of dental care. The Federal Trade Commission estimated that unjustified restrictions on dental service cost consumers $700 million a year. " "Many state dental associations seem more devoted to wiring the law than to fixing teeth. " "Foreign dentists are especially discriminated against by dental licensing regulations. In most states, it is far easier for a foreign doctor to get a license to perform bypasses on Americans' hearts than for a foreign dentist to get a license to fill cavities in Americans' teeth. The FTC concluded that the restrictive state laws - and the resulting higher prices of dental care - were a major reason why 20 million Americans have never visited a dentist" http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/adanews/adanewsarticle.asp?articleid=2524 State dental boards continue to receive pressure from their legislatures to approve international dental schools that are not CODA-accredited, many times to address access to care issues. Last month, the Maine Dental Association and the state's Board of Dental Examiners temporarily defeated a bill that would have expanded the requirements for receiving a license to practice dentistry to allow graduation from a foreign university considered satisfactory to the dental board. "An Act to Increase Access to Oral Health Care" would also have removed the requirement that applicants for licensure by endorsement that are licensed to practice in another state meet Maine's professional education requirements. The bill was referred to a joint committee on business, research and economic development for further study to be completed in early 2008. Dental boards in California, Minnesota and Florida have received similar directives. DOES DENTAL BOARD OF MAINE CARE ABOUT CONSUMERS? NO , OF COURSE NOT, they atre just afraid of competition , just like NY, greedy , imoral and disgusting > This is a nice web site : > [quoted text clipped - 127 lines] > prices of dental care - were a major reason why 20 million Americans have > never visited a dentist" >DOES DENTAL BOARD OF MAINE CARE ABOUT CONSUMERS? >NO , OF COURSE NOT, they are just afraid of competition , just like NY, greedy >, imoral and disgusting Yep, protectionism, but it doesn't just happen in dentistry. When I was growing up in Michigan, my father was in the building trades and a long-term union member. When things got tough in Michigan, my family was forced to sell our home and follow the job market to Florida. When we got there, that same union that my father had supported for decades did everything in its power to keep my father out of work and punish us for not staying in Michigan "where we belong". Guess how much I love unions today? Vaughn >>DOES DENTAL BOARD OF MAINE CARE ABOUT CONSUMERS? >>NO , OF COURSE NOT, they are just afraid of competition , just like NY, greedy [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Guess how much I love unions today? My father was a coalmine foreman. Lots of great stories especially since they tried to go on strike about every other weekend. He was actually shot at once since he had to go in regardless of a strike or not. He went with his .357 and his .308 everyday. Just think, if the rumors about a secret ballot initiative are true under a BO administration, how chapped your rear will be. Probably as chapped as mine. >Vaughn As every dentist in the USA knows, the licensing procedures in each state have never been favorable for dentists who want to have the flexibility to move from state A to state B. There are at least 53 licensing boards in the USA (VI, PR, DC), all with their own peculiar rules and regulations. These boards are not really solely in place to help/protect the consumer, but to also protect the already licensed dentists in their jurisdictions, who the boards mistakenly think fear competition by an influx of practitioners, especially in climate friendly states like Florida and Hawaii. I don't get NY though. Actually, NY had taken an enlightened approach when it scrapped the NERB in favor of a 1 year AEGD, but apparently has kept its restrictions on foreign trained (other than Canada) dentists. California, as you point out, also allows reciprocity or licensing by credentials now, after many years of restrictive state specific licensing exams. If you were a 55 year old physician though, you would only have to pass one exam at time of internship completion, and then, like the Southwest Airlines slogan, feel free to move about the country. However, a 55 year old dentist with 30 years of clinical experience is SOL. I guess that dentistry, unlike medicine, is practiced differently in each state. Thank you for your reply. Do you think is anything I could do , besides the boring/expensive 2 year program? I wanted to do a specialty , but in some states that doesn't help either. Not in NY. It is outrageous that this can happen in the 21st century, Europeans can move and practice dentistry from one country to another and look at us, 4000 application fee for some states for licensure by credentials. Isn't that a rip-off ?3000-4000 to get something which should be yours? > As every dentist in the USA knows, the licensing procedures in each state > have never been favorable for dentists who want to have the flexibility to [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I guess that dentistry, unlike medicine, is practiced differently in each > state. >It is outrageous that this can happen in the 21st century, Europeans can >move and practice dentistry from one country Then why not move to Europe ? Euros worth more than Dollars, at least for now. >4000 application fee for some states for licensure by credentials. Whassamata ? Ain't got the money ? Be forewarned, I am an unabashed capitalist. Funny how the thesaurus only has derogatory synonyms. Guess it's a socialist thingy. Sorry, my 'give a damn' is broken. You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. > Be forewarned, I am an unabashed capitalist. > Funny how the thesaurus only has derogatory synonyms. > Guess it's a socialist thingy. I have no knowledge of dental education outside of the US, but I do know that the current practical board exams and licensing process from state to state is pretty stupid. I doubt AC could easily move to Iowa or Minn. instead of somewhere within his own state, and certainly not Fla. or Texas. Physicians and RNs do not have to prove they can perform one single medical procedure (to the board) before getting a license, yet dentists and hygienists have to pass clinical as well as written exams. Pretty ridiculous. Steve PS: We went to the Alamo and the river walk yesterday and ate at Casa del Rio (founded in 1946). Thought about driving to the gulf coast today, but it's supposed to rain. Aargh. >PS: We went to the Alamo and the river walk yesterday and ate at Casa >del Rio (founded in 1946). Thought about driving to the gulf coast >today, but it's supposed to rain. Aargh. Try Mi Tierra, for an excellent meal 24/7 >> It is outrageous that this can happen in the 21st century, Europeans can >> move and practice dentistry from one country [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Be forewarned, I am an unabashed capitalist. $4K application fee isn't capitalism. It's state-sponsored extortion. Sounds pretty socialist to me. Steve > Funny how the thesaurus only has derogatory synonyms. > Guess it's a socialist thingy. > > Sorry, my 'give a damn' is broken. > You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. >$4K application fee isn't capitalism. It's state-sponsored extortion. >Sounds pretty socialist to me. > >Steve Spreading the wealth around is socialist. 4K for a 40 y.o. who can retire is chump change. Then again NY has the highest tax rates in the country and is much more than just "left leaning". >> $4K application fee isn't capitalism. It's state-sponsored extortion. >> Sounds pretty socialist to me. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Then again NY has the highest tax rates in the country > and is much more than just "left leaning". Actually, we've slipped to number 2 (behind NJ) http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/471.html Steve  SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > Actually, we've slipped to number 2 (behind NJ) > >http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/471.html > >Steve I stand corrected. Bet you didn't slip to number 2 by cutting taxes ! ;-) >>It is outrageous that this can happen in the 21st century, Europeans can >>move and practice dentistry from one country [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Sorry, my 'give a damn' is broken. > You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. Whassamata ? Ain't got the money ? Where did you pick this up from? It sounds like ghetto slang , not proper English I do not need your sympathy either. About moving back to Europe, yes ,I will do so , since I have enough money to retire at 40 >>> It is outrageous that this can happen in the 21st century, Europeans can >>> move and practice dentistry from one country [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > About moving back to Europe, yes ,I will do so , since I have enough > money to retire at 40 Cool. As licensure rules have been an issue here a long, long time, I don't see how this is an issue for you now--did you want to come to NY? Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 I did not check NY rules when I got my CA license and I was so naive to believe that after some years of working in LA, I could get back to NY. After passing the horrible bench test exam CA had for foreign graduates( most , if not all of NY Dental Board members would have failed that exam , by the way), I do not feel like going to school after what I've been through. To my knowledge, USA and Canada are the only countries doing this to foreign dentists .. In Canada , dentists have the freedom of movement though, even foreign dentists in my situation who got their license before a certain date can move to another states, because their state took care of them and negotiated with other states. But it seems that California dental board and Sacramento do not give a damn about their dentists who graduated in foreign countries , but are licensed in CA. CA dental board could have said to NY and other states: "We do not accept licensure by reciprocity as long as it discriminates against some of our CA dentists, if you want us to accept ALL your dentists , you should accept ALL our dentists" Discrimination against foreign dentists is rampant in USA, some dental boards are just a scams whose sole purpose is protectionism. I hope someone from senate will find this (it will show on search engines) and our legislators will do something. I am ready to offer A HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY to any attorney who would take my issue to the court and defeat New York Board of Dentistry. I want to thank to all of you who posted a reply. I was thinking about voting for republicans , I am wondering if democrats would understand my situation better. Any ideas? >>>> It is outrageous that this can happen in the 21st century, Europeans >>>> can [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Steve > In Canada , dentists have the freedom of movement though, even foreign > dentists in my situation who got their license before a certain date can > move to another states, because their state took care of them and > negotiated with other states. We call them "provinces". Why don't you come to Canada? Lots of work here for an honest dentist. NY is a great place (so is Cali for that matter) but why fight Goliath....its not worth it. Your California papers might entitle you to enter Canada without doing the extra 2 years of dental school foreign-trained dentists have to go through, but you'd have to check that out. > But it seems that California dental board and Sacramento do not give a > damn about their dentists who graduated in foreign countries , but are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Discrimination against foreign dentists is rampant in USA, some dental > boards are just a scams whose sole purpose is protectionism. I respect the fact that you, like my parents, immigrated from another country, and the obstacles for you must have been great. I'll also assume you did it to better your life and not to run from the law. You seem like an articulate guy, but your whining is getting to me. If its too overwhelming for you in the dental profession, pick up a shovel and lunch box like many of our parents did 40-50 years ago when they immigrated from Europe....with no investments or inheritence, I might add...just a few bucks, no English language skills, and a suitcase. Their concern was having enough money for food and if their job would be there next week. Wherever you're from must be worse than where you are now, or else you'd go back. The USA (California specifically) gave you an opportunity and you're taking it for granted. > I hope someone from senate will find this (it will show on search engines) > and our legislators will do something. That's funny. Good luck with that one. Can't believe it would be high on some senator's list, what with the economy in the toilet and the war on terror. John > I am ready to offer A HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY to any attorney who would take > my issue to the court and defeat New York Board of Dentistry. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >> >> Steve Thank you for your reply, Canadians are nice ,warm, polite people, way nicer than New Yorkers, but is too cold for me in Canada. And even with my CA license , I would still have to 2 years of school, I am pretty sure. I should ask , I am very curious. Regarding the "whining ", is not whining , is a big issue for me and for a few other people and I am trying to raise awareness , that is all. I am unhappy everyday about this issue, I am just miserable.If you were in my shoes, you'd understand I am doing slightly better financially than back home,but I think I'll move back in a few years, since I cannot take CA any longer. Is not going be high on any senator's list , but if you type" new York dental board scam "on goggle , will be all over the Internet soon > > In Canada , dentists have the freedom of movement though, even foreign >> dentists in my situation who got their license before a certain date can [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] >>> >>> Steve See what happens when a State mistakenly thinks that they will get dentists in "underserved areas" by relaxing licensure laws? Signature/ Amatus / >I did not check NY rules when I got my CA license and I was so naive to >believe that after some years of working in LA, I could get back to NY. [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] >> >> Steve > I did not check NY rules when I got my CA license and I was so naive to > believe that after some years of working in LA, I could get back to NY. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Any ideas? I'm doubtful. The situation has liberalized since my graduation (1976) in terms of licensure by credentials, but it's still not too kind (obviously) to graduates of foreign dental schools. I graduated NYUCD. There was a preparatory course for years to prepare for the bench test required for NYS license. My understanding at that time was that it did NOT qualify a foreign graduate to sit for the NERBS, so you were stuck in NY--although presumably if the licensure by credentials are in fact liberalized it would be possible to move after a few years of practice. In my day the states you couldn't get licenses in were the sun belt states--Florida and California were notorious for this. Steve >>>>> It is outrageous that this can happen in the 21st century, >>>>> Europeans can [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> >> Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 since I have enough > money to retire at 40 If that is true, you either have a large inheritance or have been a very dishonest dentist. JMO, Steve > since I have enough >> money to retire at 40 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > JMO, > Steve Actually, I do have an inheritance and investments which went extremely well in Europe. I am not a dishonest dentist I am a very compassionate , kind person, not one of those dentists who would diagnose imaginary conditions just to charge the patient and do bad work on top of that.( I think that what goes around comes around) I do have very strong ethics. I would like to live in NY , I may do so in a few years, and I feel bad giving up dentistry. Think about it: I studied so many years in my country , took all the exams here all over again, and soon I'll give up everything because I hate living in California. I would even swallow the 2 years of dental school , but is impossible to get in. the advanced standing program All I wanted was to live in NY and work 2 days/week- I cannot do it. Is not right. > Actually, I do have an inheritance and investments which went extremely > well in Europe. I am not a dishonest dentist Good to hear! > All I wanted was to live in NY and work 2 days/week- I cannot do it. > > Is not right. Many years ago I was told by my parents, "life is not fair". Nothing has changed in that department. Those same rules could be a problem for me as well at some point in my life. We should have the same rights regarding practice that physicians enjoy. JMO, Steve What I do not understand is why US dentist are not doing anything about it , since 80% of them are for universal dental licensure. Why do we let the state dental boards step on us and get our money for state licensure. What if I lived in DC and worked in DC, Fairfax (VA) and Baltimore ( MD). I would have to renew my license in 3 states and pay 3 times the amount. What a scam , what a shameful rip-off I am going to make NY dental board a super-star of http://ripoffreport.com/, just got the idea! I will post my sad story on that web-site >> Actually, I do have an inheritance and investments which went extremely >> well in Europe. I am not a dishonest dentist [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > JMO, > Steve > What I do not understand is why US dentist are not doing anything about > it , since 80% of them are for universal dental licensure. What makes you think rank and file dentists control the dental boards? There is backroom dealing and politics everywhere. Historically the line has been that the Florida and California and Arizona and Nevada dental boards don't want New York dentists semi-retire in the sun belt. The sun belt states say we fail the boards disproportionately because we aren't as well-trained, and they are protecting their populations. The ADA pays lip service to state reciprocity, but their actions over the years speak far louder than their words. The NY County Dental Society recently was replaced by the state society because they wouldn't toe the line (something involving the executive director). We have about as much influence on the dental boards as we do on the state legislatures, which is to say--not much. Steve > Why do we let the state dental boards step on us and get our money for > state licensure. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> JMO, >> Steve On Oct 17, 7:35 am, Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinm...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > What I do not understand is why US dentist are not doing anything about > > it , since 80% of them are for universal dental licensure. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Steve Steve, you and I are from a generation when that used to be true. But no more. At the present time, any dentist licensed in any state can obtain a California license "by credentials," which just means showing a current clean license in another state. That's because California finally recognized that New York dentists all have an accredited dental education, which can't be said for about 20% of the dentists already licensed here in California. That means dentists from other states can obtain a California license, but California dentists can't practice in other states unless they can show an accredited dental diploma first. - dentaldoc > On Oct 17, 7:35 am, Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinm...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > - dentaldoc Mebbe I should start looking at some cheap real estate in the Bay area... Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > Mebbe I should start looking at some cheap real estate in the Bay area... Get ready for some serious sticker shock! Vaughn >> Mebbe I should start looking at some cheap real estate in the Bay area... > > Get ready for some serious sticker shock! > > Vaughn Prices haven't declined much at all in the better Brooklyn neighborhoods. But things are starting to not move. My wife had an accepted offer on a $1M plus house a few weeks back. Qualified buyer, putting 30% cash down, bank approval. Bank comes back, pulls the approval, says they need 40% down. I think it's finally hitting us. I know that Fl is one of the biggest foreclosure states, but I'm sure we're not immune. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 Wait until GM buys Chrysler, and closes down the Chrysler Engineering Center and closes more plants. You will be able to buy homes in Michigan for ten cents on the dollar. Signature/ Amatus / >>> Mebbe I should start looking at some cheap real estate in the Bay >>> area... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Steve > Wait until GM buys Chrysler, and closes down the Chrysler Engineering Center > and closes more plants. You will be able to buy homes in Michigan for ten > cents on the dollar. If Michigan had warmer winters, I might be tempted. Vaughn >> Wait until GM buys Chrysler, and closes down the Chrysler Engineering Center >> and closes more plants. You will be able to buy homes in Michigan for ten [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Vaughn I've heard that the Upper Peninsula is like Vermont, except flat. That's a little bit like saying I look like Brad Pitt, except I'm ugly. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>> Wait until GM buys Chrysler, and closes down the Chrysler Engineering Center >>> and closes more plants. You will be able to buy homes in Michigan for ten [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Steve Amatus is in "upper lower Michigan". Hear the Mackinac Bridge is an engineering marvel. Vermont, mmmm, maple syrup, and a lovely place, in summer !!! > Amatus is in "upper lower Michigan". > Hear the Mackinac Bridge is an engineering marvel. > Vermont, mmmm, maple syrup, and a lovely place, in summer !!! Michigan is lovely in the fall and tolerable in the summer, not so tolerable at other times. Vaughn > Wait until GM buys Chrysler, and closes down the Chrysler Engineering Center > and closes more plants. You will be able to buy homes in Michigan for ten > cents on the dollar. You're really the only person I know in MI (though I have friends who lived in Detroit for several years) but my wife went to Michigan State, and knows quite a few people there. It sounds truly tragic for those caught by an imploding economy. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >> Wait until GM buys Chrysler, and closes down the Chrysler Engineering Center >> and closes more plants. You will be able to buy homes in Michigan for ten [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Steve Amatus knows first hand, the results of rampant liberalism. AKA, utopianism, socialism, and communism. You cannot tax your way to prosperity. If you remove the incentive to work harder for better economic gain, then productivity will drop like a stone. "à chacun selon ses besoins, de chacun selon ses facultés," -Louis Jean Joseph Charles Blanc 1839 L'Organisation du travail Commonly translated: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Bet you thought I was going to reference Karl Marx. OK, here 'tis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_according_to_his_ability_to_each_accordin g_to_his_need > On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 00:05:34 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld > You cannot tax your way to prosperity. You also can't borrow (or print) your way to prosperity, a concept that seems totally lost on our present administration, and one that seems to be little-understood by either of our prospective future administritations (sigh) At least, the Michigan state government is not allowed to print money. > If you remove the incentive to work harder for better > economic gain, then productivity will drop like a stone. We call that situation "communism", lack of personal incentive is communism's great fatal flaw. (Old soviet worker saying: "We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us".) > "à chacun selon ses besoins, de chacun selon ses facultés," > -Louis Jean Joseph Charles Blanc [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Bet you thought I was going to reference Karl Marx. Who you you think Karl stole his material from? Vaughn >> On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 00:05:34 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld >> You cannot tax your way to prosperity. > > You also can't borrow (or print) your way to prosperity, a concept that seems >totally lost on our present administration, and one that seems to be >little-understood by either of our prospective future administritations (sigh) Boy howdy ! The buying power of the dollar constantly decreases on average. That's why banks charge that little thing called interest. > At least, the Michigan state government is not allowed to print money. Thank goodness. >> If you remove the incentive to work harder for better >> economic gain, then productivity will drop like a stone. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Vaughn Louis Jean Joseph Charles Blanc ? > Boy howdy ! > The buying power of the dollar constantly decreases on average. > That's why banks charge that little thing called interest. Actually, my Economics professors were pretty unanimous in teaching me that banks charge interest because of the "time value" of money http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_value_of_money (as well as other factors such as allowance for the certainty of a certain percentage of default by borrowers). That said, interest rates do increase in times of inflation because otherwise there is little incentive for savers, they would be much better off to run out and immediately exchange their paper currency for real goods and services while they have the chance! Regards Vaughn >> Boy howdy ! >> The buying power of the dollar constantly decreases on average. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Regards >Vaughn Agree with the time value, CPA calls it "future value" and has some specialty calculator that does other accounting functions. Of course there is the default rate, but it went way out of control when banks were forced to make loans to unqualified borrowers. That and the 'derivative' thingy, plus FMAC, FNMA, bogus rules, then add Barney Frank <the cocksucker>, Chris Dodd, and the rest of the corrupt Dems failure to implement rules and guidelines... Nevermind don't get me started, There is a bunch of them to blame. Glad I got out of the market on 08/08/08, no kidding. Just seemed like good timing. Kinda like the Ides of March. At least the dollar is somewhat stronger, and deflation is not a current threat. > ... and the > rest of the corrupt Dems failure to implement rules and guidelines... I see that you politics haven't changed. It seems to me like we have had a Republican as Captain of our ship of state for the last 7 years, and most of that time he has enjoyed a Rebublican majority. Just show the group that our "Captain" recognized the danger from all of these derivitives and tried to use his majority in Congress to change things to avoid disaster, yet was somehow blocked by the "corrupt Dems", and then I will be happy to blame the "corrupt Dems". Myself, I think that there is plenty of blame to go around, and not all of it is inside the beltway. > Nevermind don't get me started, There is a bunch of them to blame. Yes, that I what I think. > Glad I got out of the market on 08/08/08, no kidding. > Just seemed like good timing. Kinda like the Ides of March. Well, I stayed in... Fortunately, it is a fairly conservative portfolio and we were only about 50% invested. We can wait. 5 years is no problem. > At least the dollar is somewhat stronger, and deflation is not > a current threat. In my situation, I actually wouldn't mind a bit of deflation. Regards Vaughn >> ... and the >> rest of the corrupt Dems failure to implement rules and guidelines... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >blocked by the "corrupt Dems", and then I will be happy to blame the "corrupt >Dems". Was referring to Barney Frank and Chris Dodd as only two of the villains. Can't say the the Commander in Chief had his eye on the ball on this one either. The derivative mess started with that Breton, here while back. How about the corrupt "Politicians" in general ? Blame them all ! > Myself, I think that there is plenty of blame to go around, and not all of it >is inside the beltway. And not all of it within the USA. >> Nevermind don't get me started, There is a bunch of them to blame. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Well, I stayed in... Fortunately, it is a fairly conservative portfolio and >we were only about 50% invested. We can wait. 5 years is no problem. Good for you. You have much fortitude. Wait for the start of a new (confirmed) Bull and add to your portfolio with funds that you can quickly remove. >> At least the dollar is somewhat stronger, and deflation is not >> a current threat. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Regards >Vaughn Sorry mate, deflation is a leading indicator of impending doom, whoops, meant depression, and is generally, a very bad thing. You could trade currency, but "the trend ain't yer friend" in the case of deflation. Quick trading, and the margins are a bit slim. Can be catastrophic, if timing is wrong. Odds are better in Vegas. ITYKWIM Will need to research more on 'deflation' to expound. > On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 11:55:01 GMT, "Vaughn Simon" > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > And not all of it within the USA. Exactly. I don't see any "white hats" in this situation, so my view of the situation is not as political as you might think. Much of the party politics of economics is just th eluck of the draw. Whe business cycle is inevitable and unpredictible and not fully in the control of any government. We had some wonderful economic times under Clinton, and I give him little of no credit for that, it was just beginer's luck. As much as I dislike our current administration, they are mostly just down on their luck right now and did little to cause the problem. (the national deficit is another issue, the bloating of that is 100% a policy failure of the present administration) >> In my situation, I actually wouldn't mind a bit of deflation. > > Sorry mate, deflation is a leading indicator of impending doom, > whoops, > meant depression, and is generally, a very bad thing. Yes, generally. But remember I wrote "in my situation". In any economic situation, there are winners and losers. Take my daughter and her family as an example: They live in the Bay area and have a typically huge mortgage. Inflation is their friend! As the value of the dollar goes down in future decades, their pay will tend to increase while their mortgage and any other debt payments stay constant. They win! I, on the other hand, am a new retiree with some cash assets, no debt, and a fixed pension income. A true recession (not stagflation), is my friend because cash becomes king. On the other hand, inflation is my worst enemy. Just do the math, suppose that you lose just 3% of your buying power annually over the last 30 years of your life. Vaughn Well, Michigan legislators decided the way to boost our economy was to raise taxes. Within 6 months we had the highest unemployment rate in the country. Right now, we slipped to #2, but that is because so many people have left the State, have run out of unemployment, or are working in an "under-employed" status. Rush hour is getting lighter in the metropolitan areas. Signature/ Amatus / > >>> Wait until GM buys Chrysler, and closes down the Chrysler Engineering [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_according_to_his_ability_to_each_accordin g_to_his_need It is funny and sad. Bars are full. Restaurants that focus on booze are full. Shopping Malls are busy, but no one is carrying any packages of purchased items. Service industries are "dead". Barber shops are down 60%. Automotive service is down 50%. Construction is completely stopped. Homes take 3 years to sell and then at about 70% of their recent value. Fortunately, in the rural areas, farmers still have jobs. Signature/ Amatus / >> Wait until GM buys Chrysler, and closes down the Chrysler Engineering >> Center and closes more plants. You will be able to buy homes in Michigan [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Steve > Fortunately, in the rural areas, farmers still have jobs. In really hard times, a farm is the best place to work. That is where the food is... (A lesson from my father who grew up during some hard times in Michigan) Vaughn >> Fortunately, in the rural areas, farmers still have jobs. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Vaughn Be sure to make friends with the cattle rancher and pig farmer too !! > Be sure to make friends with the cattle rancher and pig farmer too !! there is a pig on this board, his name is newbie@bix.net >>> Fortunately, in the rural areas, farmers still have jobs. >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Be sure to make friends with the cattle rancher and pig farmer too !! > there is a pig on this board, his name is newbie@bix.net OK, you've finally earned a killfile. <plonk> D >> Be sure to make friends with the cattle rancher and pig farmer too !! > >there is a pig on this board, his name is newbie@bix.net Name caller. I rest my case, you got me started by calling me flatulent >>> Be sure to make friends with the cattle rancher and pig farmer too !! >> >>there is a pig on this board, his name is newbie@bix.net > > Name caller. >> That means dentists from other states can obtain a California license, >> but California dentists can't practice in other states unless they can [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Steve It's prolly alot cheaper now ! ;-) On Oct 17, 7:35 am, Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinm...@earthlink.net> wrote: > CA-DDS tired of BS wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Steve Steve, you and I are from a generation when that used to be true. But no more. At the present time, any dentist licensed in any state can obtain a California license "by credentials," which just means showing a current clean license in another state. That's because California finally recognized that New York dentists all have an accredited dental education, which can't be said for about 20% of the dentists already licensed here in California. That means dentists from other states can obtain a California license, but California dentists can't practice in other states unless they can show an accredited dental diploma first. - dentaldoc THANK YOU DENTALDOC, THAT IS MY POINT : all NY dentists can get CA DDS license, but NOT all CA dentists can get NY license. And this is shameless /outrageous discrimination. I am not giving up , I'll make a huge deal out of this and write to every dental board in Europe/other advanced country , let them know what is going one in a country pretending to be a champion of democracy and justice-USA Europe doesn't treat US dentists like this .I am ready to take the NERB tomorrow , is a lot easier than CA board, but is not enough, NY wants me to go to school again , knowing that is almost impossible to get into the 2 year program >That means dentists from other states can obtain a California license, >but California dentists can't practice in other states unless they can [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >THANK YOU DENTALDOC, THAT IS MY POINT : all NY dentists can get CA DDS >license, but NOT all CA dentists can get NY license. ITYM NY licensed dentists from an accredited dental school. Dental Doc clearly stated: At the present time, any dentist licensed in any state can obtain a California license "by credentials," which just means showing a current clean license in another state. That's because California finally recognized that New York dentists all have an accredited dental education, which can't be said for about 20% of the dentists already licensed here in California. >And this is shameless >/outrageous discrimination. Ahh, playing the race card, are ya ? Face facts, in the US you are foreign trained from a non-accredited dental school. I also note that you have not specified *your* country of origin, and Europe is not a country. I also see that you are prejudiced against those that you termed, and I use your words, "Mexicans". >I am not giving up , I'll make a huge deal out of this and write to every >dental board in Europe/other advanced country , let them know what is going >one in a country pretending to be a champion of democracy and justice-USA Persistence can be a good trait but, if you hate the USA, you are welcomed to leave at any time. We don't force people to stay, which can't be said for many countries. >Europe doesn't treat US dentists like this .I am ready to take the NERB >tomorrow , is a lot easier than CA board, but is not enough, NY wants me to >go to school again , knowing that is almost impossible to get into the 2 >year program Don't know what the NERB is but, don't see any US born and trained dentists clamoring to get "out" of the US. They are free to leave. Seems to me there is an abundance of those less than adequately trained trying to get "in". I do NOT hate USA, I hate some of the US dental boards. NERB is http://www.nerb.org/ You are just scared of competiton, US dental school system is NOT the only good one, but the dental boards just deny any foreign dental school >>That means dentists from other states can obtain a California license, >>but California dentists can't practice in other states unless they can [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > Seems to me there is an abundance of those less than adequately > trained trying to get "in". FOR ALL OF YOU CLAIMING THE SUPERIORITY of US/CANADIAN schools to any other dental schools , did you know that in this country students score lower than other countries http://www.nysun.com/foreign/us-students-lag-behind-other-nations-in-science/67500/ SO DO ME A FAVOR AND CUT THE CRAP , US dental school system is not the center of the Universe with everything revolving around it. They are good dentists and crappy dentists everywhere in the world, I'd rather have my teeth worked on in a private practice in Europe than in an US Medical/HMO practice U.S. Students Lag Behind Other Nations in Science, Math By NANCY ZUCKERBROD, Associated Press | December 5, 2007 a.. SHARE b.. | c.. PRINT d.. | e.. EMAIL a.. Add to del.icio.us b.. Add to Digg c.. Add to Facebook d.. Add to Newsvine WASHINGTON - American students are lagging behind their peers in other countries in science and math, test results out yesterday show. The test, the Program for International Student Assessment, was given to 15-year-olds in 30 industrialized countries last year. It focused on science but also included a math portion. The 30 countries, including America, make up the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which runs the international test. The average scores for American students were lower than the average scores for the group as a whole. American students also had an average science score that was lower than the average score in 16 other OECD countries. In math, American students did even worse - posting an average score that was lower than the average in 23 of the other leading industrialized countries. The test also was administered to students in about two dozen countries or jurisdictions that are not part of the industrialized group. When compared with the broader group, the American students fell in the middle of the pack in science and did somewhat worse in math. There was no change in American math scores since 2003, the last time the test was given. The science scores aren't comparable between 2003 to 2006, because the tests aren't the same. American girls and boys did about the same on the science and math portions of the test. Finland's 15-year-olds did the best on the science test, followed by students in Hong Kong and Canada. Students in Finland, Taiwan, South Korea, and Hong Kong were the top performers in math. On Oct 17, 7:35 am, Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinm...@earthlink.net> wrote: > CA-DDS tired of BS wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Steve Steve, you and I are from a generation when that used to be true. But no more. At the present time, any dentist licensed in any state can obtain a California license "by credentials," which just means showing a current clean license in another state. That's because California finally recognized that New York dentists all have an accredited dental education, which can't be said for about 20% of the dentists already licensed here in California. That means dentists from other states can obtain a California license, but California dentists can't practice in other states unless they can show an accredited dental diploma first. - dentaldoc Since there is no national jurisdiction, each state has the right of making its own regulations and set fees for whatever it wants to impose a fee on. Some states (Massachusetts) charge a fee for a separate license in order for a dentist to use nitrous oxide. Even an MD or an RN has to pay each and every state the required periodic licensing fees if he/she wants to maintain the license in that jurisdiction. By statute in almost every jurisdiction, the money collected for licensing fees has to make the individual licensing agency self-sufficient. Whatever is left over goes to the state's coffers. While dentists have always wanted freedom of movement, the ADA has forever only paid very weak lip-service on this issue. Without a bold effort by the national organization, such freedom will never happen. >>It is outrageous that this can happen in the 21st century, Europeans can >>move and practice dentistry from one country [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Sorry, my 'give a damn' is broken. > You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. Thanks for the ridicule , very nice what a dentist had to say to another dentist trapped in an unfortunate situation. >> You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. > > Thanks for the ridicule , very nice what a dentist had to say to another > dentist trapped in an unfortunate situation. More likely a dentist who took advantage of California trying to get health care to underserved regions, and is trying to use that as a jumping board to other States, and,,,,,,,,,,,, never intended to help out the underserved areas. >>> You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > board to other States, and,,,,,,,,,,,, never intended to help out the > underserved areas. And why exactly should I be the one helping undeserved areas?I do not want to be a hero .. I am NOT helping those areas for a low pay because I am very SKILLED and I can make a lot more money in better areas, if you really need to know why. There are sneaky states who would want to treat foreign dentists( but with American specialty training) as second class dentists and have them work under a LIMITED permit in welfare government clinics. IS NOT WORKING for those states.They have a lot of nerve though, thinking that an American trained specialist would want to see their welfare patients on a limited permit and low pay http://www.ada.org/prof/prac/licensure/us_a.pdf Tennessee law gives the dental board discretion to issue a limited license for the practice of dentistry in American Dental Association accredited institutions or dental education programs or in federally-designated health professional shortage areas, to a graduate of an non-accredited general dentistry program who successfully completed an accredited advanced education (ADA-recognized specialty) program accredited by the ADA CDA. WAKE UP TENNESSEE dental board, what specialist would do welfare dentistry for you with a limited license?!!!! You are disconnected from reality. I know a foreign trained dentist with US perio degree who makes 3000/day in LA working for a large practice. Would he go to TENNESSEE TO BE A WELFARE HERO? Do not think so... I congratulate CA for giving foreign dentists equal rights, so I can work in Beverly Hills or other good area, not in a welfare clinic. I passed all the boards American graduates passed + an extra one-the bench test, so I should have the same rights. Are you aware how difficult CA clinical was compared to NERB? 1/4 of US medical doctors are foreign medical school graduates. Good dentists should not fear competition from others. I did not take advantage of CA, just got my DDS license here and they made it hard for people like me, trust me. Get used to the idea that I went to dental school just like you did , in another country , and I shouldn't go to school all over again because you or some boards say so. Do you think US is the international leader in dentistry and no European schools are as good? Have you heard of Sweden?... >Get used to the idea that I went to dental school just like you did , in >another country , and I shouldn't go to school all over again because you or >some boards say so. Is your dental school (which you didn't name) considered "accredited" by the ADA ? Are you a US citizen ? >>Get used to the idea that I went to dental school just like you did , in >>another country , and I shouldn't go to school all over again because you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Are you a US citizen ? I am US citizen, I moved to the US with a green card in my pocket, so I was never illegal here. My school is NOT ADA accredited , since is in Europe. Some American dentists assume that people like me should be " the Mexicans" of American dentistry , accepting low pay jobs in welfare clinics , just like those desperate people from Mexico ( I feel sorry for them) who have no education and work for little pay in the US Maybe Mr Amatus Cremona wants to tell me something I don't know, because CA dental board never told me that my DDS license was meant to be used in undeserved areas. No offense to Mexicans! The whole situation makes me feel that US dentists putting people like me through all this undeserved hardship are not compassionate human beings, but greedy , hungry for money hyenas, who would just kill any competition standing in their way. Maybe 50,000-100,000 people emigrate to US each year. 1 dentist/1000 people 50-100 dentists for the whole US. 2-3 foreign dentists/state the dental boards are scared of. What difference a few extra dentists in each state would make? NONE. Congratulation, protectionist US dental boards! Dentist licensure in USA is a SCAM I have a suggestion for the scam called NEW YORK BOARD OF DENTISTRY: Ask foreign graduates to go AGAIN to high school- 4 years, college- 4 years, dental school -4 years, total 12,so you make sure that you "protect" the NY consumer and no foreign dentist will ever get licensed in your state again. (you'd love that , wouldn't' you). Or ask US government to stop giving permanent residency or citizenship to any foreign dentist , so we can protect the whole country from this serious danger of foreign dentists flooding America!! Ask US government to revoke the DDS license of any foreign graduate and send him back home, so the consumers would be fully protected! Or make the international DDS program 10 years! Make sure greedy NY dental board that nobody gets a slice of your pie! >>>Get used to the idea that I went to dental school just like you did , in >>>another country , and I shouldn't go to school all over again because you [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I am US citizen, I moved to the US with a green card in my pocket, so I was >never illegal here. You are a naturalized US citizen ? >My school is NOT ADA accredited , since is in Europe. Europe is a continent, not a country. >>I am US citizen, I moved to the US with a green card in my pocket, so I >>was >>never illegal here. > > You are a naturalized US citizen ? me too >>>I am US citizen, I moved to the US with a green card in my pocket, so I >>>was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > me too So did you go to school abroad and did 2 years here, or the whole dental program in the US? As I have already said: Some American school dentists assume that people like me should be " the Mexicans" of American dentistry , accepting low pay jobs in welfare clinics , just like those desperate people from Mexico ( I feel sorry for them) who have no education and work for little pay in the US CA dental board never told me that my DDS license was meant to be used in undeserved areas.In fact all I knew was that I was getting a DDS license I could work anywhere I please with , I did just that! No offense to Mexicans! I did all my schooling in the USA. Signature/ Amatus / > >>>>I am US citizen, I moved to the US with a green card in my pocket, so I [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > No offense to Mexicans! Lucky you , you do not have to suffer like me. I should have moved here before dental school , not after. >I did all my schooling in the USA. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> >> No offense to Mexicans! > Lucky you , you do not have to suffer like me. "Suffer" is a pretty strong word for your situation, what with some people in our society having to work for minimum wage and use food banks while others are sick with cancer. > I should have moved here before dental school , not after. But you did not. I had a high school history teacher who had a sign up in his room that said: "You can do anything in life if you are willing to pay the price." You chose to move to the United States and not, say, Iceland, or Romania, or South Africa, or Portugal, or etc, each with different rules with respect to the licensure of foreign trained dentists. You find it difficult to now live with that choice and the subsequent rules you must work under, despite how unfair you feel those rules are to you. John >> Lucky you , you do not have to suffer like me. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > John CANADA and US are the only countries discriminating against foreign dental school graduates. ANYWHERE YOU GO , you take the exams and get a license, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GO TO SCHOOL AGAIN. Medical doctors have HIGHER responsibility than dentists, but all they do is a residency , NOT 2 years of med school. So is just common sense that the 2 years are required due to protectionist reasons, not out of concern for the patients. I do not mind a residency, at least I learn something, but you know as well as I do that 2 years of dental school will NOT make me a better dentist, would be just a waste of time and money. And , yes , I do suffer , because all my life I was used to having whatever I wanted, but NY dental board scam defeated me. I will keep fighting them and nagging them with internet postings , though , I am sure they are not very pleased with what they read on the internet about them. I do not make minimum wage, but I worked to get where I am (twice-dental school back home and all the boards all over again in the US) >CANADA and US are the only countries discriminating against foreign dental >school graduates. Could that be because they all want to come to the US ? >ANYWHERE YOU GO , you take the exams and get a license, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO >GO TO SCHOOL AGAIN. Bet it's because they would love to have a US trained dentist. >Medical doctors have HIGHER responsibility than dentists, I very strongly disagree on this point. It takes very little "responsibilty" to write an Rx. It takes some training and talent to perform excellent endodontics. Oh really , have you heard of brain surgery or open heart surgery? Compare that with a composite filling So your strong disagreement is totally flawed.That "simple RX" you mentioned could kill or heal someone. You are more narrow minded and rude than what I thought, and think too high of yourself ( maybe you are delusional) if you imagine that you are above medical doctors If md's do not have higher responsibility than dentists, why our malpractice insurance is so low compared to their insurance? Some complicated surgery is performed by foreign medical grads , here in the US, because medical boards are not protectionist/inept and they recognize foreign medical schools ANYWHERE YOU GO , you take the exams and get a license, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO >>GO TO SCHOOL AGAIN. > > Bet it's because they would love to have a US trained dentist. Is not because of that, is because they ARE NOT PIGS WITH THICK SKIN, LIKE SOME MEBERS OF DENTAL BOARDS HERE >>CANADA and US are the only countries discriminating against foreign dental >>school graduates. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > It takes some training and talent to perform excellent endodontics. >Oh really , have you heard of brain surgery or open heart surgery? Yep, and even have heard of neurologists. BTW they only diagnose, and Rx. Physicians and Surgeons, though commonly linked together, are two completely different kettles of fish. >Compare that with a composite filling Compare that with building a Formula One engine. >So your strong disagreement is totally flawed.That "simple RX" you mentioned >could kill or heal someone. Have you ever written an Rx that 'killed' someone ? Doubt that there are many who have. Who Rx's Arsenic anymore ? >You are more narrow minded and rude than what I thought, and think too high >of yourself ( maybe you are delusional) if you imagine that you are above >medical doctors Have met some very gregarious surgeons, and some good physicians. If you consider me rude, that is your prerogative. Your assessment of my psyche is only based on Usenet. But must re-iterate, once again, that you are "projecting". >If md's do not have higher responsibility than dentists, why our malpractice >insurance is so low compared to their insurance? Percentage of dental patients expiring during treatment is extremely low. Insurance companies play the odds, ever been to Vegas ? They don't build those fancy hotels with winners money. >Some complicated surgery is performed by foreign medical grads , here in the >US, because medical boards are not protectionist/inept and they recognize >foreign medical schools Medical Surgeons don't operate alone to my knowledge. >ANYWHERE YOU GO , YOU DO NOT HAVE TO >>>GO TO SCHOOL AGAIN. Your hate and vitriol only serves to fuel your anger and tantrums at your own deficiencies as an un-enlightened non-tolerant, self-aggandizing, homunculus. It is quite evident, that for *you* further schooling is required by NY and NJ States. And likely the rest of the 48. The US may be a 'free' country, but we still have rules, regulations, and laws. States may dictate their own laws, and may not be uniform from State to State. This is what angers you and drives your unreasonable rants, hysterics, assumptions, and rage that all State laws are not the same. It has been this way since the United States of America was founded. It is one of our greatest strengths. >ARE NOT PIGS WITH THICK SKIN, LIKE >SOME MEBERS OF DENTAL BOARDS HERE Chicharrónes anyone ? Sorry, SB, none for you. What are "mebers" ? Just wondering. You still haven't revealed what country that you emigrated from. This is a 'tell' that you are ashamed of you origins. I said I went to school in W Europe and I have Italian MD friends. Any clues? Another one - I am white-100 % a little mistery is more fun and I am very proud of my nationality , not ashamed , as you said >>Oh really , have you heard of brain surgery or open heart surgery? > [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > You still haven't revealed what country that you emigrated from. > This is a 'tell' that you are ashamed of you origins. >I said I went to school in W Europe and I have Italian MD friends. Also have Italian friends, and like lasagne. How's that for a non sequitur ? I have 3 dogs, guess which breeds ? >Any clues? France, Spain, Portugal... >Another one - I am white-100 % I am dentist-100% >a little mistery is more fun Seems to me that you love misery more than mystery. >and I am very proud of my nationality , not ashamed , as you said Then why not reveal your origins ? you give me an example of European country that should be ashamed of what? It is Europe, not the unfortunate 3rd world... Italian banks are less screwed right now that the American ones. I am NOT prejudiced against Mexicans , as you claim, I did say I feel sorry for some of them trying to escape abject poverty, if I were in their shoes I would do the same thing >>Oh really , have you heard of brain surgery or open heart surgery? > [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > You still haven't revealed what country that you emigrated from. > This is a 'tell' that you are ashamed of you origins. >you give me an example of European country that should be ashamed of what? Not sure what you mean here. >It is Europe, not the unfortunate 3rd world... Europe is not a country. >Italian banks are less screwed right now that the American ones. Just wait and see. Thinking the DJIA bottom is around 8.1K ± 3 % Watch for 'bottom testing". Whipsaws of ±10+% are likely, Stay out of the market until you see at least +1% follow-through on very high volume, from the 3rd to 10th day after a significant rally. This may signal the start of a new bull. Be careful to not jump in too soon ! >I am NOT prejudiced against Mexicans , as you claim, I did say I feel sorry >for some of them trying to escape abject poverty, if I were in their shoes I >would do the same thing You were the one who made disparaging remarks about Mexicans. Just because Mexico keeps the populous in poverty doesn't mean that the US has to accept them. And who said that they had shoes ? Funny how Mexican only seem to migrate North and not South, and high falutin' Europeans migrate West and not East. > On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 23:14:14 -0700, "CA-DDS tired of BS" > Funny how Mexican only seem to migrate North and not South, > and high falutin' Europeans migrate West and not East. To be honest, here in the US of A we wouldn't be situated to see very many Europeans who migrate East, but I am pretty sure that it happens. Further, their are several countries south of the USA that have their own issues with illegal Mexican immigrants. Vaughn DJIA bottom will be around 6000, bot 8000 wait and see >>you give me an example of European country that should be ashamed of what? > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Funny how Mexican only seem to migrate North and not South, > and high falutin' Europeans migrate West and not East. > Lucky you , you do not have to suffer like me. > > I should have moved here before dental school , not after. your choice >Dentist licensure in USA is a SCAM Nope it's just more difficult for foriegn trained dentist. Sorry, in every country I know of, their natural born citizens are given preferential treatment. That's just the way of the world. Here's something for you to check out. How long does it take for an immigrant to Saudi Arabia to earn citizenship and the right to vote ? >I have a suggestion for the scam called NEW YORK BOARD OF DENTISTRY: That would be 'The New York *State* Board of Dentistry'. The Constitution ensures something called 'State's Rights". Perhaps you are unfamiliar with this concept. IIRC NY is covered in the North East Regional Boards. SB may enlighten us further. > <New...@bix.nex> wrote in message > > Ask foreign graduates to go AGAIN to high school- 4 years, college- 4 years, > dental school -4 years, total 12,so you make sure that you "protect" the NY > consumer and no foreign dentist will ever get licensed in your state again. > (you'd love that , wouldn't' you). 12 years? That's not accurate. The requirement is 2 years, not 12! You already knew this because you posted it youself earlier when you complained about needing the 2 years of school to fulfill American dental education standards. - dentaldoc On Oct 16, 8:24 pm, "CA-DDS tired of BS" <ca_...@yahoo.com> wrote: > <New...@bix.nex> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > again. > (you'd love that , wouldn't' you). 12 years? That's not accurate. The requirement is 2 years, not 12! You already knew this because you posted it youself earlier when you complained about needing the 2 years of school to fulfill American dental education standards. - dentaldoc No, dentaldoc, is just a suggestion , a joke , maybe if they make it 12 instead of 2 , they "protect " the NY consumers better. I know is 2. >> More likely a dentist who took advantage of California trying to get >> health care to underserved regions, and is trying to use that as a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I can make a lot more money in better areas, if you really need to know > why. I rest my case Some American dentists assume that people like me should be " the Mexicans" of American dentistry , accepting low pay jobs in welfare clinics , just like those desperate people from Mexico ( I feel sorry for them) who have no education and work for little pay in the US Maybe Mr Amatus Cremona wants to tell me something I don't know, because CA dental board never told me that my DDS license was meant to be used in undeserved areas. No offense to Mexicans! The whole situation makes me feel that US dentists putting people like me through all this undeserved hardship are not compassionate human beings, but greedy , hungry for money hyenas, who would just kill any competition standing in their way. Maybe 50,000-100,000 people emigrate to US each year. 1 dentist/1000 people 50-100 dentists for the whole US. 2-3 foreign dentists/state the dental boards are scared of. What difference a few extra dentists in each state would make? NONE. Congratulation, protectionist US dental boards! Dentist licensure in USA is a SCAM I have a suggestion for the scam called NEW YORK BOARD OF DENTISTRY: Ask foreign graduates to go AGAIN to high school- 4 years, college- 4 years, dental school -4 years, total 12,so you make sure that you "protect" the NY consumer and no foreign dentist will ever get licensed in your state again. (you'd love that , wouldn't' you). Or ask US government to stop giving permanent residency or citizenship to any foreign dentist , so we can protect the whole country from this serious danger of foreign dentists flooding America!! Ask US government to revoke the DDS license of any foreign graduate and send him back home, so the consumers would be fully protected! Or make the international DDS program 10 years! Make sure greedy NY dental board that nobody gets a slice of your pie! >>> You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > board to other States, and,,,,,,,,,,,, never intended to help out the > underserved areas. > Some American dentists assume that people like me should be " the > Mexicans" [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Or make the international DDS program 10 years! Make sure greedy NY dental > board that nobody gets a slice of your pie! When do I get my pie? Steve >>>> You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> jumping board to other States, and,,,,,,,,,,,, never intended to help >> out the underserved areas. >> Or make the international DDS program 10 years! Make sure greedy NY dental >> board that nobody gets a slice of your pie! > > When do I get my pie? > >Steve Didn't Amatus send you one of those fabulous 4 berry pies ? >>> Or make the international DDS program 10 years! Make sure greedy NY dental >>> board that nobody gets a slice of your pie! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Didn't Amatus send you one of those fabulous 4 berry pies ? Yeah--sure did! But I never got a slice of my NYS pie! >>>> Or make the international DDS program 10 years! Make sure greedy NY dental >>>> board that nobody gets a slice of your pie! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Yeah--sure did! But I never got a slice of my NYS pie! Err, ummm, well, uh, gee, ... didn't you say that you have a wife... ... and children ? Nevermind, different type of pie... <hehe> > >> You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > other States, and,,,,,,,,,,,, never intended to help out the underserved > areas. Amatus, you got that right. As a California dentist for many, many years, I am familiar with the quirks in California law that allowed applicants to obtain a dental license in California WITHOUT first obtaining an accredited education. Back when the legislature first passed that loophole in 1971, it was due to political pressure from a couple of local foreign-born citizen groups, who said they preferred dentists of their own ethnicity. Political contributions greased the way (as always), and California became the ONLY state to license dentists without an accredited education. The other 49 states had the sense to require an accredited dental degree before a dental license could be obtained -- but not here in California. The legislature sold this loophole to the public and the profession as a means to supply dentists to the poor. What a joke. As "CA-DDS" has mentioned above, he has no intention of repaying the leniency of California by helping the poor when he can slap veneers on the people of Beverly Hills for megabucks and retire at age 40. So the state now has about 5000 dentists who are inelgible to practice anywhere else in the country because all the OTHER jurisdictions expect a dentist to have a dental degree from an accredited dental school. What a novel idea -- requiring a dentist to have an accredited dental degree! It's a good standard for 49 states, and the entire nation of Canada. But California doesn't bother to require the education. The problem is not with the high standards of the other 49 states; the problem is with California, and its deceptive practice of luring foreign dentists here, telling the public that the purpose is to serve "underserved communities." Then the foreign dentists quickly learn that they can sell overpriced porcelain to anyone, as the public had learned in earlier generations to trust dentists as professionals, not as salesmen. Now we have in California a situation where huge numbers of dentists crowd into the richer areas so they can "retire at 40" and the "underserved population" is still perpetually underserved. In my city of 63 dentists, only 3 of us even accept Medicaid patients any more. (The reason is obvious: there is no pay for the work.) Before those 5000 dentists moved here, taking the easy path of obtaining a license without the required education, they really should have done some "due diligence" to discover that 49 states still require an accredited education. Instead they listened to the siren song of California's misleading political establishment. By the way, here's a good one that seems to flabbergast dentists from other states when they hear it for the first time: California has LEGALIZED the use of the "D.D.S." degree even when that degree has NEVER been earned! That means some 3000 or 4000 dentists in this state legally hang out shingles with their name and "D.D.S." when in reality they have never obtained that degree. I'll bet you won't find THAT deceptive practice legalized by any other state! There is much more, but I won't bore everyone with all the details that took me 30 years to learn. Politics is a dirty art. - dentaldoc All I can say is WOW! I didn't know CA was *that* screwed up. D >>More likely a dentist who took advantage of California trying to get health >>care to underserved regions, and is trying to use that as a jumping board to >>other States, and,,,,,,,,,,,, never intended to help out the underserved >>areas. > Amatus, you got that right. As a California dentist for many, many > years, I am familiar with the quirks in California law that allowed > applicants to obtain a dental license in California WITHOUT first > obtaining an accredited education. > What a novel idea -- requiring a dentist to have an accredited dental > degree! > By the way, here's a good one that seems to flabbergast dentists from > other states when they hear it for the first time: California has [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I'll bet you won't find THAT deceptive practice legalized by any other > state! > Politics is a dirty art. Me neither ! No wonder CA-DDS hasn't mention the country of origin in regard to his dental "degree"... >All I can say is WOW! > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >> Politics is a dirty art. Well, newbie, you like it or not , my"degree" is worth as much as your "degree"-in CA only , of course. And the translation of my foreign degree would be in fact DDS, I completed a 6 year program , which is more than the 4 years in the US Do you think that if you went to school here you must be a big shot and no other dental schools in the world are good? No , you are NOT a big shot ,you are just a dentist like any other Keep on dreaming USA and Canada are not the only advanced countries , they are many countries out there teaching dentistry at high standards, but US dental boards are just ignoring the reality, and some dentist are just having nasty attitudes towards another dentist who did nothing else but to express an opinion. > Me neither ! > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> >>> Politics is a dirty art. Since you addressed me directly... >Well, newbie, you like it or not , my"degree" is worth as much as your >"degree"-in CA only , of course. Sorry mate, went to the #1 dental school in America. >And the translation of my foreign degree would be in fact DDS, I completed >a 6 year program , which is more than the 4 years in the US In America, you must first earn a college degree, usually a BS. Then you must apply, take entrance exams, and compete to earn a spot in dental school. Most take 8 years, but a few have done it without a college degree. >Do you think that if you went to school here you must be a big shot and no >other dental schools in the world are good? From what I've seen, which I admit is minimal, most is complete junk, >No , you are NOT a big shot ,you are just a dentist like any other Some may agree with your statment, many do not. Never said I was a 'big shot', that is your perception. Since you cannot debate the facts; you personally attack me. That just shows your weakness and insecurity. >Keep on dreaming You betcha ! Living the American Dream and Loving Every Minute Of It ! >USA and Canada are not the only advanced countries , they are many countries >out there teaching dentistry at high standards, Name some, be specific. Japan comes to mind. And oh yeah, name your country of origin ? You haven't and that makes you a coward. >but US dental boards are >just ignoring the reality, I fear that it is *you* that is ignoring reality. You ARE NOT qualifed to practice in NY, and likely no other state in our union. If you spent all the energy and vitriol that you display on SMD toward getting the credentials that you need to practice in NY, you wouldn't rant here. You'd be doing it. >and some dentist are just having nasty attitudes >towards another dentist who did nothing else but to express an opinion. One of the greatest things about America is that you have the freedom to express your opinion. However, you *do not* have the right to be heard nor agreed with. That is the other side of that coin. Many brave men have fought and died to preserve the rights guaranteed in the US Constitution. You should read it sometime. My fellow Americans are also urged to (re)read it. http://www.house.gov/house/Constitution/Constitution.html Freedom is never free. BTW your American English is pretty good for someone supposedly not born in the US. >> Me neither ! >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>> >>>D So now you are saying that I might be US born because of my good English , or what? My English is good because I got a better education than what most people get here, in the US, everybody knows that US students score lower than many other countries. I am NOT US born, just naturalized citizen, so I do have the right to be heard. I am living the American dream also, BTW, you are not the only one with a high income on this board So don't be so full of yourself > Since you addressed me directly... > [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] >>>> >>>>D Hate to break it to you, and no offense(offence if you speak the Queen's) , but your written English isn't particularly pristine. Unfortunately, while (whilst) most of us probably agree with what you say about the various dental regulatory boards, you are now coming across as an elitist. If you are from Eastern Europe, got a dental degree in Western Europe, then a dentist license in the USA i.e California, you, like Arnold Schwartzenegger, are actually living what is left of the American dream. Most of your countrymen (whichever country it is you choose to not identify) would be happy to be here. Also, in my dental school class 35 years ago, about 15% of the students were from foreign countries, other than Canada. Today, I think that the figure could be almost 50%. Could not these students have gone to a dental school in their own country? Why come here and why stay hereafter graduation? Hmm, if education is so stellar elsewhere, why come to the USA? It just happened that I came to the US, it was sort of an accident under past circumstances, sometimes I regret I came here. I am not saying that education is stellar elsewhere, but to say that every other country has poor education compared to US , is wrong. My English is pretty good for someone who's not US born, at least I speak 3 languages fluently, not many people can say that. . You say I live" what is left from the American dream", actually the fact that I am foreign born worked well for me business wise About the American dream, you know , every country has it's own accomplished people, and it seems to me , looking at CNBC or CNN, that the American dream was a huge Ponzi scheme who is falling apart . And, honestly ,I think people are having more fun in Europe, besides that, US is not the country with the highest standard of living. I understand you are a proud American , I am one, too( naturalized), but this is not the only place on earth to live. I am not an elitist, that guy newbie claiming that all foreign schools are crap, is. Those students are staying here after graduation because they make more money here than back home, that is why. They come to study here because they want to live in the US and not be in my foreing school grad situation We , dentists, are people making tons of money, but American dream for the average guy in this country, hmmm.....remains just a dream I hear about this American dream , but I am looking at the stock market and the dream seems to be fading away BTW , in my class theere were also a lot of foreign students, USA is not the Mecca of dental schools. > Hate to break it to you, and no offense(offence if you speak the Queen's) > , but your written English isn't particularly pristine. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > graduation? Hmm, if education is so stellar elsewhere, why come to the > USA? >Hate to break it to you, and no offense(offence if you speak the >Queen's) , but your written English isn't particularly pristine. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >California, you, like Arnold Schwartzenegger, are actually living what >is left of the American dream. >Most of your countrymen (whichever >country it is you choose to not identify) would be happy to be here. I find that most curious, the identification part. >Also, in my dental school class 35 years ago, about 15% of the students >were from foreign countries, other than Canada. Today, I think that the >figure could be almost 50%. Could not these students have gone to a >dental school in their own country? Why come here and why stay hereafter >graduation? Hmm, if education is so stellar elsewhere, why come to the USA? Well stated. Probably, could not get into a USA dental school, so he went out of the country to attend dental school, not realizing that the degree would not transfer. Signature/ Amatus / > >>Hate to break it to you, and no offense(offence if you speak the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Well stated. NOPE, when I went to dental school at 18 did not have a clue I'd move to the States. Had I known. I would have moved to US earlier and do the dental school here. Never applied here in the US > Probably, could not get into a USA dental school, so he went out of the > country to attend dental school, not realizing that the degree would not [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> >> Well stated. In that case, sorry for the remark. Signature/ Amatus / > NOPE, when I went to dental school at 18 did not have a clue I'd move to > the States. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >>> >>> Well stated. >I am NOT US born, just naturalized citizen, so I do have the right to be >heard. Nope, you have the right of freedom of speech. There is no right to be heard. So who has the right to be heard then , you? >>I am NOT US born, just naturalized citizen, so I do have the right to be >>heard. > > Nope, you have the right of freedom of speech. > > There is no right to be heard. No one has the right to be "Heard". You can speak all you want, you cannot make anyone listen. You just don't grok the concept do you ? >So who has the right to be heard then , you? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> There is no right to be heard. Maybe apples and oranges, the People's Republic of Massachusetts allows physicians who earned the D.O degree to declare themselves as an M.D. if they have passed the M.D. license as there is no separate Board for osteopaths. However, a BDS with a 5 or 6 year degree from India or FRG or UK (same amount of education as a pharmacist in US/Canada)should not be able to declare he is a DDS/DMD who had to have an 8 year educational path. The 2 year requirement to earn a DDS/DMD is only fair and insures an equal grounding in the standards of care in most of North America. BTW, Hans-Peter Weber, a noted periodontist/implantologist at Harvard, had to complete the accelerated 2 year DMD program despite having a dental degree from Switzerland. Lastly, living in the northeast, I am flabbergasted as to why someone who has it made in sunny California would want to relocate to the Empire State. I don't think that there is a tax advantage. Am I missing something? > Maybe apples and oranges, the People's Republic of Massachusetts allows > physicians who earned the D.O degree to declare themselves as an M.D. if [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > who has it made in sunny California would want to relocate to the Empire > State. I don't think that there is a tax advantage. Am I missing something? Well, I don't know where you are. There are certainly good things to say about New York, but the tax load is certainly not one of them. Chairman Romney? ;-) Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 I've never been to the "City", but I did live in Watertown, NY from '83 - '88. They had the nicest, most honest, most hard-working people people I have ever met. Except for the Army and my now ex-wife, I'd still be there, not making a lot of money, but enjoying a more relaxed, low stress, isolated, back in time by 20 years, and SNOWY life. If I weren't 55 yrs old, I'd move back - as I can get a license by credentials. >> Lastly, living in the northeast, I am flabbergasted as to why someone >> who has it made in sunny California would want to relocate to the Empire [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Steve Do you know what Bill Clinton said when he heard that Michael Bloomberg was going to get the term limits law changed ? "You can do that ?!" >>> Lastly, living in the northeast, I am flabbergasted as to why someone >>> who has it made in sunny California would want to relocate to the Empire [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > "You can do that ?!" Actually, first he was going to have the city council suspend it; now the city council is looking into changing the limits from 2 to 3 terms for the whole bunch. Steve I disagree with you, since 4 of those 8 years are college ( biology chemistry physics classes, but many other things NOT connected to dentistry) The 6 year program in some foreign countries is DENTAL MEDICINE ONLY, so is as good as 8 years ( 4 college/4 dental) from which 2 are wasted on things not connected to dentistry. I find going to college before grad prograsm a waste of time and a non sense , in Europe they go from high school straight to medical schools. I thought they are some combined programs in US where you do pre-med college and dental school only 6 years together, am I wrong? . "However, a BDS with a 5 or 6 year degree from India or FRG or UK (same amount of education as a pharmacist in US/Canada)should not be able to declare he is a DDS/DMD who had to have an 8 year educational path." > Maybe apples and oranges, the People's Republic of Massachusetts allows > physicians who earned the D.O degree to declare themselves as an M.D. if [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > State. I don't think that there is a tax advantage. Am I missing > something? I knew of one school in the US doing this, but after several years, they evidently don't like the results and they are discontinuing the program. IME, not very many high school grads are ready to move into such a demanding career choice. It takes more than just brains to be a practicing dentist. D > I disagree with you, since 4 of those 8 years are college ( biology > chemistry physics classes, but many other things NOT connected to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I thought they are some combined programs in US where you do pre-med > college and dental school only 6 years together, am I wrong? > I knew of one school in the US doing this, but after several years, > they evidently don't like the results and they are discontinuing the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a demanding career choice. It takes more than just brains to be > a practicing dentist. Dammit, Spock--what's the secret? Steve > D SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >> I knew of one school in the US doing this, but after several years, >> they evidently don't like the results and they are discontinuing the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> D Scotty, we need the warp engines online now ! Capt'n I canna get ya no more power... >> I knew of one school in the US doing this, but after several years, >> they evidently don't like the results and they are discontinuing the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Steve Jim, if you didn't always think like a human, the answer would be obvious. ;-) Steve >Lastly, living in the northeast, I am flabbergasted as to why someone >who has it made in sunny California would want to relocate to the Empire >State. I don't think that there is a tax advantage. Am I missing something? Cheaper airfare back home to Europe ? Country unknown, as CA-DDS refuses to reveal his origins. On Oct 15, 7:15 pm, "Amatus Cremona" <Nic...@sottovocce.com> wrote: > >> You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > other States, and,,,,,,,,,,,, never intended to help out the underserved > areas. Amatus, you got that right. As a California dentist for many, many years, I am familiar with the quirks in California law that allowed applicants to obtain a dental license in California WITHOUT first obtaining an accredited education. Back when the legislature first passed that loophole in 1971, it was due to political pressure from a couple of local foreign-born citizen groups, who said they preferred dentists of their own ethnicity. Political contributions greased the way (as always), and California became the ONLY state to license dentists without an accredited education. The other 49 states had the sense to require an accredited dental degree before a dental license could be obtained -- but not here in California. The legislature sold this loophole to the public and the profession as a means to supply dentists to the poor. What a joke. As "CA-DDS" has mentioned above, he has no intention of repaying the leniency of California by helping the poor when he can slap veneers on the people of Beverly Hills for megabucks and retire at age 40. So the state now has about 5000 dentists who are inelgible to practice anywhere else in the country because all the OTHER jurisdictions expect a dentist to have a dental degree from an accredited dental school. What a novel idea -- requiring a dentist to have an accredited dental degree! It's a good standard for 49 states, and the entire nation of Canada. But California doesn't bother to require the education. The problem is not with the high standards of the other 49 states; the problem is with California, and its deceptive practice of luring foreign dentists here, telling the public that the purpose is to serve "underserved communities." Then the foreign dentists quickly learn that they can sell overpriced porcelain to anyone, as the public had learned in earlier generations to trust dentists as professionals, not as salesmen. Now we have in California a situation where huge numbers of dentists crowd into the richer areas so they can "retire at 40" and the "underserved population" is still perpetually underserved. In my city of 63 dentists, only 3 of us even accept Medicaid patients any more. (The reason is obvious: there is no pay for the work.) Before those 5000 dentists moved here, taking the easy path of obtaining a license without the required education, they really should have done some "due diligence" to discover that 49 states still require an accredited education. Instead they listened to the siren song of California's misleading political establishment. By the way, here's a good one that seems to flabbergast dentists from other states when they hear it for the first time: California has LEGALIZED the use of the "D.D.S." degree even when that degree has NEVER been earned! That means some 3000 or 4000 dentists in this state legally hang out shingles with their name and "D.D.S." when in reality they have never obtained that degree. I'll bet you won't find THAT deceptive practice legalized by any other state! There is much more, but I won't bore everyone with all the details that took me 30 years to learn. Politics is a dirty art. - dentaldoc So if they never obtained the DDS degree as you claim, why did they go to dental school in their countries for?! To become dancers? I thought you'd realize that since they went to dental school abroad , they got a degree SIMILAR to DDS degree, is just that it seems that some US dentists think that because they graduated from US schools they are big shots and nobody else should display the DDS degree. What degree do you think I earned in Europe if not DDS? US is NOT the middle of the universe with everything revolving around it, do you think you are smart and European dentist are nothing compared to you , right? You are wrong, if you are so good, why would you fear competition from 5000 CA dentists. 100-150 per state is nothing, even if all move from CA to other states. This is just so sad, getting this kind of attitude from another dentist.... Basically , you are telling me that displaying the DDS degree is wrong. I am just as educated as you are, dentaldoc, only in a different country By the way , I've seen so many American graduated "talented" , 'skilled" "dentists" referring all molar endo , I could teach them a lesson or two about it, but well, I am just a "foreign grad without a degree", as you claim They have been in practice for 20 years and can barely do an anterior RCT , but call themselves "dentists". If you are going to continue this thread, please use usenet etiquette and quote correctly. >That means some 3000 or 4000 dentists in this state legally hang out >shingles with their name and "D.D.S." when in reality they have never [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >- dentaldoc @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ >So if they never obtained the DDS degree as you claim, why did they go to >dental school in their countries for?! To become dancers? Maybe. Suspect you mean titty-dancers, you must be familiar with that term, eh ? >I thought you'd realize that since they went to dental school abroad , they >got a degree SIMILAR to DDS degree, Maybe a similar degree, no guarantee of equivalency of training. Trust but verify. > is just that it seems that some US >dentists think that because they graduated from US schools they are big >shots and nobody else should display the DDS degree. Do I detect resentment ? Did you forget D.M.D. ? > What degree do you >think I earned in Europe if not DDS? Don't know, why don't you tell us ? And again I ask: "What is your country of origin and training ?" >US is NOT the middle of the universe with everything revolving around it, do >you think you are smart and European dentist are nothing compared to you , >right? Mostly yes. >You are wrong, if you are so good, why would you fear competition >from 5000 CA dentists. Yet you offer no proof. It's not fear, you fool, it's about demonstrating your ability. >100-150 per state is nothing, even if all move from CA to other states. Don't you wish. Bet you wouldn't consider Montana or Wyoming. >This is just so sad, getting this kind of attitude from another dentist.... Yep, you are a sad, pathetic excuse for a wannabe real US dentist. You are "projecting" your insecurity onto others. You need professional psychiatric help. > I am just as educated as you are, dentaldoc, only in a different country Assumes facts not in evidence. Which Country ?!?! >By the way , I've seen so many American graduated "talented" , 'skilled" >"dentists" referring all molar endo , I don't, and can prove it. > I could teach them a lesson or two >about it, That would be a very nice place to start. >but well, I am just a "foreign grad without a degree", Again, once more, hey dude... What country ? >They have been in practice for 20 years and can barely do an anterior RCT , >but call themselves "dentists". Guess there are no inept people from your Utopia, huh ? US is NOT the middle of the universe with everything revolving around it, do >you think you are smart and European dentist are nothing compared to you , >right? Mostly yes. As I said, you are too full of yourself, and believe it or not , CALIFORNIA sees no difference between your DDS degree and mine So , at least in CA, I can practice wherever I want to without restrictions, and you cannot take that away from me > If you are going to continue this thread, please use usenet etiquette > and quote correctly. [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] >> > Guess there are no inept people from your Utopia, huh ? > CALIFORNIA >sees no difference between your DDS degree and mine Thought the point was that NY sees a difference. >So , at least in CA, I can practice wherever I want to without restrictions, >and you cannot take that away from me Never said I wanted to take what you have earned. Ok , let's assume you are right, that some additional education is required for all foreign dental grads . But how do you justify the fact that a French dentist with US perio training , who published a book and is MORE EDUCATED than you, dentaldoc, cannot practice in any state he wants-(see my other posting), he could not get a NJ license, but you can move wherever you want. OK , you say I shouldn't be allowed to moveI am just a general dentist, but why not even a specialist with American training cannot move to any state he wants? An US trained endodontist would have to go back 2 dental school to practice in NY. That is not maintaining high standards, is plain bullshit and is outrageous How do you justify that, prove me is not protectionism! Another dental board scam, click here: http://www.state.nj.us/oag/ca/dentistry/minutes/den317.htm US trained periodontist cannot practice in NEW JERSEY, but is licensed in another US state!!!! I bet they wouldn't even let him work as a hygienist!! Greedy new jersey dental board protectionist hyenas!!! Another example of foreign dentist discrimination! Shame to NEW JERSEY dental board!! 4. Dr. David Sarment - Application for a dental license. Dr. Sarment obtained a D.D.S. degree in 1994 from University of Paris, France. He indicates that he is board certified in Periodontics and holds a dental license and specialty license in the State of Michigan. The committee recommends that this application be denied because he is a foreign graduate and does not meet the requirements for licensure. The Board referred this issue ( NJSA 45:6-6) to the regulation committee for review. The Board suggests that the wording referring to foreign dentists should be removed Anyone give me a single reason why a French DDS with US perio training, licensed in Michigan, shouldn't be allowed to practice periodontics ANYWHERE IN AMERICA. Or maybe Tennessee wants him for the welfare clinincs! Tennessee law gives the dental board discretion to issue a limited license for the practice of dentistry in American Dental Association accredited institutions or dental education programs or in federally-designated health professional shortage areas, to a graduate of an non-accredited general dentistry program who successfully completed an accredited advanced education (ADA-recognized specialty) program accredited by the ADA CDA. Sue them Dr. David Sarment!!! http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/dentistry/minutes/den317.htm Do not let them get away with it! On Oct 15, 7:15 pm, "Amatus Cremona" <Nic...@sottovocce.com> wrote: > >> You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > other States, and,,,,,,,,,,,, never intended to help out the underserved > areas. Amatus, you got that right. As a California dentist for many, many years, I am familiar with the quirks in California law that allowed applicants to obtain a dental license in California WITHOUT first obtaining an accredited education. Back when the legislature first passed that loophole in 1971, it was due to political pressure from a couple of local foreign-born citizen groups, who said they preferred dentists of their own ethnicity. Political contributions greased the way (as always), and California became the ONLY state to license dentists without an accredited education. The other 49 states had the sense to require an accredited dental degree before a dental license could be obtained -- but not here in California. The legislature sold this loophole to the public and the profession as a means to supply dentists to the poor. What a joke. As "CA-DDS" has mentioned above, he has no intention of repaying the leniency of California by helping the poor when he can slap veneers on the people of Beverly Hills for megabucks and retire at age 40. So the state now has about 5000 dentists who are inelgible to practice anywhere else in the country because all the OTHER jurisdictions expect a dentist to have a dental degree from an accredited dental school. What a novel idea -- requiring a dentist to have an accredited dental degree! It's a good standard for 49 states, and the entire nation of Canada. But California doesn't bother to require the education. The problem is not with the high standards of the other 49 states; the problem is with California, and its deceptive practice of luring foreign dentists here, telling the public that the purpose is to serve "underserved communities." Then the foreign dentists quickly learn that they can sell overpriced porcelain to anyone, as the public had learned in earlier generations to trust dentists as professionals, not as salesmen. Now we have in California a situation where huge numbers of dentists crowd into the richer areas so they can "retire at 40" and the "underserved population" is still perpetually underserved. In my city of 63 dentists, only 3 of us even accept Medicaid patients any more. (The reason is obvious: there is no pay for the work.) Before those 5000 dentists moved here, taking the easy path of obtaining a license without the required education, they really should have done some "due diligence" to discover that 49 states still require an accredited education. Instead they listened to the siren song of California's misleading political establishment. By the way, here's a good one that seems to flabbergast dentists from other states when they hear it for the first time: California has LEGALIZED the use of the "D.D.S." degree even when that degree has NEVER been earned! That means some 3000 or 4000 dentists in this state legally hang out shingles with their name and "D.D.S." when in reality they have never obtained that degree. I'll bet you won't find THAT deceptive practice legalized by any other state! There is much more, but I won't bore everyone with all the details that took me 30 years to learn. Politics is a dirty art. - dentaldoc > That is not maintaining high standards, is plain bullshit and is outrageous > > How do you justify that, prove me is not protectionism! You show me a government without stupid rules, and I'll eat my hat. You should not be bitching at 'us' on smd about this. I don't know you and I have no idea if you are a decent dentist (or person). I don't know what your dental education has been. I do know it is very difficult to get politicians to change rules. Did you have to pay for your education or was it government sponsored? D > Did you have to pay for your education or was it government sponsored? > > D Don't see an answer yet..... Steve On Oct 15, 7:15 pm, "Amatus Cremona" <Nic...@sottovocce.com> wrote: > >> You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > other States, and,,,,,,,,,,,, never intended to help out the underserved > areas. Amatus, you got that right. As a California dentist for many, many years, I am familiar with the quirks in California law that allowed applicants to obtain a dental license in California WITHOUT first obtaining an accredited education. Back when the legislature first passed that loophole in 1971, it was due to political pressure from a couple of local foreign-born citizen groups, who said they preferred dentists of their own ethnicity. Political contributions greased the way (as always), and California became the ONLY state to license dentists without an accredited education. The other 49 states had the sense to require an accredited dental degree before a dental license could be obtained -- but not here in California. The legislature sold this loophole to the public and the profession as a means to supply dentists to the poor. What a joke. As "CA-DDS" has mentioned above, he has no intention of repaying the leniency of California by helping the poor when he can slap veneers on the people of Beverly Hills for megabucks and retire at age 40. So the state now has about 5000 dentists who are inelgible to practice anywhere else in the country because all the OTHER jurisdictions expect a dentist to have a dental degree from an accredited dental school. What a novel idea -- requiring a dentist to have an accredited dental degree! It's a good standard for 49 states, and the entire nation of Canada. But California doesn't bother to require the education. The problem is not with the high standards of the other 49 states; the problem is with California, and its deceptive practice of luring foreign dentists here, telling the public that the purpose is to serve "underserved communities." Then the foreign dentists quickly learn that they can sell overpriced porcelain to anyone, as the public had learned in earlier generations to trust dentists as professionals, not as salesmen. Now we have in California a situation where huge numbers of dentists crowd into the richer areas so they can "retire at 40" and the "underserved population" is still perpetually underserved. In my city of 63 dentists, only 3 of us even accept Medicaid patients any more. (The reason is obvious: there is no pay for the work.) Before those 5000 dentists moved here, taking the easy path of obtaining a license without the required education, they really should have done some "due diligence" to discover that 49 states still require an accredited education. Instead they listened to the siren song of California's misleading political establishment. By the way, here's a good one that seems to flabbergast dentists from other states when they hear it for the first time: California has LEGALIZED the use of the "D.D.S." degree even when that degree has NEVER been earned! That means some 3000 or 4000 dentists in this state legally hang out shingles with their name and "D.D.S." when in reality they have never obtained that degree. I'll bet you won't find THAT deceptive practice legalized by any other state! There is much more, but I won't bore everyone with all the details that took me 30 years to learn. Politics is a dirty art. - dentaldoc How do you justify the fact that a French dentist with US perio training , who published a book and is MORE EDUCATED than you, dentaldoc, cannot practice in any state he wants-(see my other posting), he could not get a NJ license, but you can move wherever you want. Or maybe you want to tell me that that French dentist should not even display DDS , because he went to school in France , not like you , big shot , in the US. Please give me a straight answer if you dare, should an US trained specialist (but foreign dental school grad) be allowed to practice his specialty in ANY state? Tell me : YES or NO? If your answer is NO , tell me what 2 years of dental school would do for an endodontist, periodontist, oral surgeon, etc, who would ONLY practice his own specialty. You tell me and all the protectionist scam dental boards across the country( they are a few TX, VA, MN who would allow such a specialist to practice without the 2 year dental school bullshit) Yes. Your point is valid. A foreign trained dentist with a valid/approved 2 - 5 year US specialty training should be allowed to practice as a US trained specialist in any US state. He should, however, identify himself as e.g BDS, MS, Ph.D. but not DDS/DMD unless that degree had been granted in the foreign country. What should happen and what does happen are totally different. Also, if a foreign dental school's undergraduate dental curriculum meets the accreditation standards of the American Association of Dental Schools accreditation committee, then graduates from that school should be allowed to sit for the licensing exam in any state. If they pass, they get a license. If the state says that they can use DDS or DMD, then that's OK too, as long as that is the law. However, you would have to show them that a BDS with 5/6 yrs dental school immediately after high school is equivalent to a traditional BS/DMD 8 total year's program, or an "accelerated" 6 year program like they used to have at B.U. that gave a BS and DMD at time of course completion. However, IIRC I think that they abandoned that program. I did 6 years dental school, for the simple reason that I was already studying in HIGH SCHOOL what they are studying here in college( the organic chemistry , physics , calculus and biology ) Is 8 years here, but in the 4 years of college NOT EVERYTHING YOU STUDY is related to dentistry. What I studied in 6 years is ALL related to dentistry, is pure medicine/dentistry , not some unrelated college stuff And yes, it DOES SAY DMD ON MY FOREIGN DIPLOMA , when I will reveal my identity I will post in for newbie and dentaldoc to see it. If you add 6 years dental school to the 2 years of high school advanced organic chemistry, biology and physics, you get 8 years. That is may European 6 year dental degrees are equivalent to the US DDS > Yes. Your point is valid. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > and DMD at time of course completion. However, IIRC I think that they > abandoned that program. > That is may European 6 year dental degrees are equivalent to the US DDS How much did it cost you? Steve Not the same Signature/ Amatus / >I did 6 years dental school, for the simple reason that I was already >studying in HIGH SCHOOL what they are studying here in college( the organic [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >> a BS and DMD at time of course completion. However, IIRC I think that >> they abandoned that program. What a novel idea -- requiring a dentist to have an accredited dental degree! It's a good standard for 49 states, and the entire nation of Canada. But California doesn't bother to require the education - dentaldoc YEAH , RIGHT , 2 countries in the whole world, anywhere else people just take exams and get a DDS license if they come from a foreign country. The "good standard " of shameless protectionism in a global economy. Why are dental boards so fixated on the 2 years of extra dental school? Because they know is an easy way to crush the competition, the 2 year international DDS programs have extremely limited seats. So most foreign dentists have no choice but the whole 4 years again, they start from scratch If you were not so ignorant , you'd know that the extremely difficult restorative technique exam ( which you would have failed with flying colors) was specially designed to make sure that the foreign grads meet the American standards. If was really the concern for the consumer, states would design difficult " bench tests", just like CA did. Is not the concern for the consumer, is protectionism. I have Italian friends, medical doctors, licensed in the US after a residency program. Why dentistry is different than general medicine? They have more responsibility than us, dentists. 1/4 of US medical doctors are foreign grads! Why can't I practice in NY if I do a residency program in USA? I took NDBE 1, 2 , restorative technique examination ( 6 % passing rate) , CA board, so prove me that I am not as good as the dentists who graduated in US. I am pretty good, because I wouldn't be that desperate to see welfare patients to make a living( doing substandard, repulsive dentistry). You tell me exactly where the Italian dental schools are deficient compared to the US schools, give me a single example. I have bad news for you , since you seem so scared of foreign competition, CODA is about to issue accreditation to 12 foreign dental schools . I am NOT some small town dentist scared of foreign competition , like some other people. You and some other dentists who posted nasty replies against me , just make me feel bad that I am dentist , in the same branch with people like you. You even have the fu##ing nerve to tell me that I should not display a DDS degree. My Alma Mater takes in a few foreign trained dentists each year for just the last two years of dental school. Signature/ Amatus / > What a novel idea -- requiring a dentist to have an accredited dental > degree! [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > You even have the fu##ing nerve to tell me that I should not display a DDS > degree. where is it? Do they want NDBE 1 taken within last 5 years??( I took it a long time ago) Thank you > My Alma Mater takes in a few foreign trained dentists each year for just > the last two years of dental school. [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] >> You even have the fu##ing nerve to tell me that I should not display a >> DDS degree. Why would I recommend someone as bitter and angry as you to a school where I do so much volunteer work at? Signature/ Amatus / > where is it? > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] >>> You even have the fu##ing nerve to tell me that I should not display a >>> DDS degree. I DID NOT ASK FOR a recommendation, jsut where is it > Why would I recommend someone as bitter and angry as you to a school where > I do so much volunteer work at? [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] >>>> You even have the fu##ing nerve to tell me that I should not display a >>>> DDS degree. I am very good with the porcelain veneers you mentioned, by the way . They look great and the technique is very conservative ,maybe you should take the lumineers classes. If you want I can teach you some rotary endo , by the way, I can show you how you make sure you NEVER separate the Ni-Ti files MEDICAL doesn't pay for veneers, now you know why I do not do welfare dentistry. What you call CA leniency is just justice , CA realized that some foreign grads are as well qualified as the US ones. Do you know that I met US grads taking the CA clinical board the 4th time, so good their US education was. I only took it once. And I passed . Anyway, great news for you, CA requires the 2 extra years now, just like the other states. The bad news is that about 12 foreign dental schools are in the process of accreditation. Those foreign dentists will come and take your job HA HA HA And by saying I should not display a DDS degree, you have a lot of nerve, besides being disconnected from reality On Oct 15, 7:15 pm, "Amatus Cremona" <Nic...@sottovocce.com> wrote: > >> You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > other States, and,,,,,,,,,,,, never intended to help out the underserved > areas. Amatus, you got that right. As a California dentist for many, many years, I am familiar with the quirks in California law that allowed applicants to obtain a dental license in California WITHOUT first obtaining an accredited education. Back when the legislature first passed that loophole in 1971, it was due to political pressure from a couple of local foreign-born citizen groups, who said they preferred dentists of their own ethnicity. Political contributions greased the way (as always), and California became the ONLY state to license dentists without an accredited education. The other 49 states had the sense to require an accredited dental degree before a dental license could be obtained -- but not here in California. The legislature sold this loophole to the public and the profession as a means to supply dentists to the poor. What a joke. As "CA-DDS" has mentioned above, he has no intention of repaying the leniency of California by helping the poor when he can slap veneers on the people of Beverly Hills for megabucks and retire at age 40. So the state now has about 5000 dentists who are inelgible to practice anywhere else in the country because all the OTHER jurisdictions expect a dentist to have a dental degree from an accredited dental school. What a novel idea -- requiring a dentist to have an accredited dental degree! It's a good standard for 49 states, and the entire nation of Canada. But California doesn't bother to require the education. The problem is not with the high standards of the other 49 states; the problem is with California, and its deceptive practice of luring foreign dentists here, telling the public that the purpose is to serve "underserved communities." Then the foreign dentists quickly learn that they can sell overpriced porcelain to anyone, as the public had learned in earlier generations to trust dentists as professionals, not as salesmen. Now we have in California a situation where huge numbers of dentists crowd into the richer areas so they can "retire at 40" and the "underserved population" is still perpetually underserved. In my city of 63 dentists, only 3 of us even accept Medicaid patients any more. (The reason is obvious: there is no pay for the work.) Before those 5000 dentists moved here, taking the easy path of obtaining a license without the required education, they really should have done some "due diligence" to discover that 49 states still require an accredited education. Instead they listened to the siren song of California's misleading political establishment. By the way, here's a good one that seems to flabbergast dentists from other states when they hear it for the first time: California has LEGALIZED the use of the "D.D.S." degree even when that degree has NEVER been earned! That means some 3000 or 4000 dentists in this state legally hang out shingles with their name and "D.D.S." when in reality they have never obtained that degree. I'll bet you won't find THAT deceptive practice legalized by any other state! There is much more, but I won't bore everyone with all the details that took me 30 years to learn. Politics is a dirty art. - dentaldoc Good dentists are not fearful of competition. >Good dentists are not fearful of competition. And 'excellent' dentists are in very high demand, are not 'fearful, and may set fees as they see fit. Yes ? Mine are moderate, quality and honesty is my rep. CA-DDS has never stated what country in EU s/he was graduated. If truly independently wealthy, one could move anywhere. An involvement in dentistry in NY could <?> start with a teaching position ? Maybe ? Methinks CA-DDS dost protest too much. Fair command of American English. Has not revealed Country of origin nor credentials <CV> Argues with those that 'agree'. Gentlemen, we have encounted a troll of rare talent. "Methinks CA-DDS dost protest too much" I guess grammar is not your strength I think my English is better than yours... But I am a real UE dentist , not an US born troll who wants to stir controversy... And I guess I can take 2-5 more years in CA before retirement, is not the end of the world if I cannot practice in NY, because I REFUSE to go to dental school, that would make the NY dental scam-board win >>Good dentists are not fearful of competition. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Gentlemen, we have encounted a troll of rare talent. By saying I should not display the DDS degree, you offended me and a few other thousands people like me, who worked hard to get licensed in CA, and it just proves how ignorant and prejudiced you are. Those foreign dental schools award a DDS degree equivalent to the US one, FYI On Oct 15, 7:15 pm, "Amatus Cremona" <Nic...@sottovocce.com> wrote: > >> You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > other States, and,,,,,,,,,,,, never intended to help out the underserved > areas. Amatus, you got that right. As a California dentist for many, many years, I am familiar with the quirks in California law that allowed applicants to obtain a dental license in California WITHOUT first obtaining an accredited education. Back when the legislature first passed that loophole in 1971, it was due to political pressure from a couple of local foreign-born citizen groups, who said they preferred dentists of their own ethnicity. Political contributions greased the way (as always), and California became the ONLY state to license dentists without an accredited education. The other 49 states had the sense to require an accredited dental degree before a dental license could be obtained -- but not here in California. The legislature sold this loophole to the public and the profession as a means to supply dentists to the poor. What a joke. As "CA-DDS" has mentioned above, he has no intention of repaying the leniency of California by helping the poor when he can slap veneers on the people of Beverly Hills for megabucks and retire at age 40. So the state now has about 5000 dentists who are inelgible to practice anywhere else in the country because all the OTHER jurisdictions expect a dentist to have a dental degree from an accredited dental school. What a novel idea -- requiring a dentist to have an accredited dental degree! It's a good standard for 49 states, and the entire nation of Canada. But California doesn't bother to require the education. The problem is not with the high standards of the other 49 states; the problem is with California, and its deceptive practice of luring foreign dentists here, telling the public that the purpose is to serve "underserved communities." Then the foreign dentists quickly learn that they can sell overpriced porcelain to anyone, as the public had learned in earlier generations to trust dentists as professionals, not as salesmen. Now we have in California a situation where huge numbers of dentists crowd into the richer areas so they can "retire at 40" and the "underserved population" is still perpetually underserved. In my city of 63 dentists, only 3 of us even accept Medicaid patients any more. (The reason is obvious: there is no pay for the work.) Before those 5000 dentists moved here, taking the easy path of obtaining a license without the required education, they really should have done some "due diligence" to discover that 49 states still require an accredited education. Instead they listened to the siren song of California's misleading political establishment. By the way, here's a good one that seems to flabbergast dentists from other states when they hear it for the first time: California has LEGALIZED the use of the "D.D.S." degree even when that degree has NEVER been earned! That means some 3000 or 4000 dentists in this state legally hang out shingles with their name and "D.D.S." when in reality they have never obtained that degree. I'll bet you won't find THAT deceptive practice legalized by any other state! There is much more, but I won't bore everyone with all the details that took me 30 years to learn. Politics is a dirty art. - dentaldoc If you've got the vaunted DDS, then you should use it. I know foreign grads way more skilled than you are , making 5 times as much as you make , whether you like it or not , they are CA-DDS , JUST LIKE ME. They all have DDS degrees in CA and they display it, because they earned it! Live with it! Get the yellow pages and look under Beverly Hills dentists, see A TON OF FOREIGN NAMES. They did not take the welfare dentistry path you thing they should have! Live with it! On Oct 15, 7:15 pm, "Amatus Cremona" <Nic...@sottovocce.com> wrote: > >> You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > other States, and,,,,,,,,,,,, never intended to help out the underserved > areas. Amatus, you got that right. As a California dentist for many, many years, I am familiar with the quirks in California law that allowed applicants to obtain a dental license in California WITHOUT first obtaining an accredited education. Back when the legislature first passed that loophole in 1971, it was due to political pressure from a couple of local foreign-born citizen groups, who said they preferred dentists of their own ethnicity. Political contributions greased the way (as always), and California became the ONLY state to license dentists without an accredited education. The other 49 states had the sense to require an accredited dental degree before a dental license could be obtained -- but not here in California. The legislature sold this loophole to the public and the profession as a means to supply dentists to the poor. What a joke. As "CA-DDS" has mentioned above, he has no intention of repaying the leniency of California by helping the poor when he can slap veneers on the people of Beverly Hills for megabucks and retire at age 40. So the state now has about 5000 dentists who are inelgible to practice anywhere else in the country because all the OTHER jurisdictions expect a dentist to have a dental degree from an accredited dental school. What a novel idea -- requiring a dentist to have an accredited dental degree! It's a good standard for 49 states, and the entire nation of Canada. But California doesn't bother to require the education. The problem is not with the high standards of the other 49 states; the problem is with California, and its deceptive practice of luring foreign dentists here, telling the public that the purpose is to serve "underserved communities." Then the foreign dentists quickly learn that they can sell overpriced porcelain to anyone, as the public had learned in earlier generations to trust dentists as professionals, not as salesmen. Now we have in California a situation where huge numbers of dentists crowd into the richer areas so they can "retire at 40" and the "underserved population" is still perpetually underserved. In my city of 63 dentists, only 3 of us even accept Medicaid patients any more. (The reason is obvious: there is no pay for the work.) Before those 5000 dentists moved here, taking the easy path of obtaining a license without the required education, they really should have done some "due diligence" to discover that 49 states still require an accredited education. Instead they listened to the siren song of California's misleading political establishment. By the way, here's a good one that seems to flabbergast dentists from other states when they hear it for the first time: California has LEGALIZED the use of the "D.D.S." degree even when that degree has NEVER been earned! That means some 3000 or 4000 dentists in this state legally hang out shingles with their name and "D.D.S." when in reality they have never obtained that degree. I'll bet you won't find THAT deceptive practice legalized by any other state! There is much more, but I won't bore everyone with all the details that took me 30 years to learn. Politics is a dirty art. - dentaldoc > I know foreign grads way more skilled than you are , making 5 times as > much as you make , whether you like it or not , they are CA-DDS , JUST > LIKE ME. They all have DDS degrees in CA and they display it, because > they earned it! Please stop this before your head explodes. Thank you. Steve > Live with it! > [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > > - dentaldoc >> I know foreign grads way more skilled than you are , making 5 times >> as much as you make , whether you like it or not , they are CA-DDS , [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Steve This fellow might need to write a book.... Especially if he can judge skill over the internet and believes making money has much to do with quality dentistry. ;-) D >>> I know foreign grads way more skilled than you are , making 5 times >>> as much as you make , whether you like it or not , they are CA-DDS , [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > This fellow might need to write a book.... I think Oprah is on the other line... > Especially if he can judge skill over the internet and believes making > money has much to do with quality dentistry. > > ;-) > D SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 I was mad at that guy dentaldoc saying I should not display DDS, I was fuming Yes , making money is not necessarily a good dentist >>> I know foreign grads way more skilled than you are , making 5 times as >>> much as you make , whether you like it or not , they are CA-DDS , JUST [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > ;-) > D What do you want to bet, he already wrote a book? Notice someone else is missing when this one is posting? Signature/ Amatus / > >>> I know foreign grads way more skilled than you are , making 5 times as [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > ;-) > D >> I know foreign grads way more skilled than you are , making 5 times as >> much as you make , whether you like it or not , they are CA-DDS , JUST [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Steve But Dude, I'm pumping all the gas that can be mustered into this SUV. The resulting air show should be spectacular. Is not my intention to offend any US dental school graduate , but these 2 guys dentaldoc@hotmail.com and newbie@bix.net have been rude to me, my problem is with them and nobody else. On Oct 15, 7:15 pm, "Amatus Cremona" <Nic...@sottovocce.com> wrote: > >> You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > other States, and,,,,,,,,,,,, never intended to help out the underserved > areas. Amatus, you got that right. As a California dentist for many, many years, I am familiar with the quirks in California law that allowed applicants to obtain a dental license in California WITHOUT first obtaining an accredited education. Back when the legislature first passed that loophole in 1971, it was due to political pressure from a couple of local foreign-born citizen groups, who said they preferred dentists of their own ethnicity. Political contributions greased the way (as always), and California became the ONLY state to license dentists without an accredited education. The other 49 states had the sense to require an accredited dental degree before a dental license could be obtained -- but not here in California. The legislature sold this loophole to the public and the profession as a means to supply dentists to the poor. What a joke. As "CA-DDS" has mentioned above, he has no intention of repaying the leniency of California by helping the poor when he can slap veneers on the people of Beverly Hills for megabucks and retire at age 40. So the state now has about 5000 dentists who are inelgible to practice anywhere else in the country because all the OTHER jurisdictions expect a dentist to have a dental degree from an accredited dental school. What a novel idea -- requiring a dentist to have an accredited dental degree! It's a good standard for 49 states, and the entire nation of Canada. But California doesn't bother to require the education. The problem is not with the high standards of the other 49 states; the problem is with California, and its deceptive practice of luring foreign dentists here, telling the public that the purpose is to serve "underserved communities." Then the foreign dentists quickly learn that they can sell overpriced porcelain to anyone, as the public had learned in earlier generations to trust dentists as professionals, not as salesmen. Now we have in California a situation where huge numbers of dentists crowd into the richer areas so they can "retire at 40" and the "underserved population" is still perpetually underserved. In my city of 63 dentists, only 3 of us even accept Medicaid patients any more. (The reason is obvious: there is no pay for the work.) Before those 5000 dentists moved here, taking the easy path of obtaining a license without the required education, they really should have done some "due diligence" to discover that 49 states still require an accredited education. Instead they listened to the siren song of California's misleading political establishment. By the way, here's a good one that seems to flabbergast dentists from other states when they hear it for the first time: California has LEGALIZED the use of the "D.D.S." degree even when that degree has NEVER been earned! That means some 3000 or 4000 dentists in this state legally hang out shingles with their name and "D.D.S." when in reality they have never obtained that degree. I'll bet you won't find THAT deceptive practice legalized by any other state! There is much more, but I won't bore everyone with all the details that took me 30 years to learn. Politics is a dirty art. - dentaldoc > Is not my intention to offend any US dental school graduate , but these > 2 guys dentaldoc@hotmail.com > > and newbie@bix.net have been rude to me, my problem is with them and > nobody else. Cool you jets for a while and think about how you have introduced your self to this group. You show up one day with a major rant about all of the injustice in dental licensing through the US. You are so mad at the system that you through most of us into the group you are upset with acting like we are to blame for either agreeing with the policies or at least for allowing them to continue. You don't stop to think for a minute that each of us has had to overcome many roadblocks and trials to get to where we are. We weren't all born with silver spoons in our mouths, and I don't think a single one of us could have retired at 40! That's not how to win friends and influence people. I can see me now, entering a local pub while visiting Ireland, and insulting the Irish government while blaming the patrons for letting it remain that way. Don't think it's likely I'd get to quietly finish my pint....... ;-O Steve No, people posting here or US dentists are NOT to blame, dental boards/local governments are to blame. People posting here are very nice and reasonable, except newbie@bix.net , who's a jerk full of himself, but does NOT represent the American dentists I am totally aware that my posts will not change anything, besides annoying the NY-NJ DENTAL BOARDS - that was my goal , a lot of people will see this on search engines. > You don't stop to think for a minute that each of us has had to overcome > many roadblocks and trials to get to where we are. We weren't all born > with silver spoons in our mouths, and I don't think a single one of us > could have retired at 40! You are right, but it was the same for me back home, now I'd have to go through the whole thing again in order to get a NY license. I am saying it again, if I retire tomorrow, it will be from some investments (made money as a DDS , but invested WELL abroad)+ my family is well off, that is all. I did OK as a dentist , but not enough to retire at 40 without other resources. >> Is not my intention to offend any US dental school graduate , but these 2 >> guys dentaldoc@hotmail.com [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Steve >People posting here are very nice and reasonable, except newbie@bix.net , >who's a jerk full of himself, but does NOT represent the American dentists I see that you are projecting again. In will not keep arguing with you, is not worth it, is just a waste of time, you are the one who atacked me 1st >>People posting here are very nice and reasonable, except newbie@bix.net , >>who's a jerk full of himself, but does NOT represent the American dentists > > I see that you are projecting again. no, No, NO ! You attacked the entire US dental licensing system from the get-go, and have had nothing postitive to say about America. You have only bitched, whined, and made egregious unfounded accusations about the State Boards of Dental Examiners. Your current 'professional' situation, is of your own making. There's a saying: "you made your bed, now lie in it !" You repeatedly refuse to reveal your country of origin, and original dental school, and have insulted Mexicans. Sir, you are a weak, pathetic, waste of protoplasm. Didn't attack you, but challenged your statments. You sir, were the one who used a personal attack. -WB >In will not keep arguing with you, is not worth it, is just a waste of time, >you are the one who atacked me 1st [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> I see that you are projecting again. My accusations are quite founded (example US trained specialists, more educated than you, a general dentist, not being able to get licensed in most states), but a jerk like you,newbie , will always be a jerk,you can scream all you want > no, No, NO ! > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >>> >>> I see that you are projecting again. > I am totally aware that my posts will not change anything, besides > annoying the NY-NJ DENTAL BOARDS > > - that was my goal , a lot of people will see this on search engines. I think you are in for a big disappointment. Usenet is not the place to post stuff that you think very many other folks will find and read. > You are right, but it was the same for me back home, now I'd have to go > through the whole thing again in order to get a NY license. > I am saying it again, if I retire tomorrow, it will be from some > investments (made money as a DDS , but invested WELL abroad)+ my family > is well off, that is all. I did OK as a dentist , but not enough to > retire at 40 without other resources. I really don't think you have a good grasp of what this country can offer, and does offer its citizens every day. Unfortunately, many of our current natural born citizens don't get it either <ouch!>. Everyone here has the *opportunity* and *freedom* to guide their own life. That doesn't give them the *right* to a certain level of income. They have to *work* for it. However, toil and sweat will not make you wealthy, even in the US. It will put food on the table and a roof over your head. No matter what, life is not *fair*. I would have almost as much trouble as you trying to get a NY license. In some ways that offends me, but I really don't want to go there anyway. At any rate, I understand that rules and regulations do limit those freedoms that we are granted. However, I (and you) could work within those rules and regulations to do just that. I still haven't heard you mention how much you had to pay for your dental education. Steve Fawks >> I am totally aware that my posts will not change anything, besides >> annoying the NY-NJ DENTAL BOARDS [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >Steve Fawks Agreed, and a good final question. Well stated SF. Even if it is ever answered, it doesn't mean it will be answered truthfully. "Protectionism" can be justified if a dentist comes by his education by personal loans instead of 'state funding'. I borrowed money to fund my dental education. My son will borrow money to fund his should he get an acceptance letter. For a dentist to get a 'free' education in another country, and set up next to a dentist with thousands of dollars of debt before he ever has a license would not be fair in any sense of the word. Maybe all the cards are not on the table. Steve >>I still haven't heard you mention how much you had to pay for your >>dental education. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Well stated SF. I thought the right to practice is determined by education, not by the school loans, but US boards some of you think the other way. The clear goal of US dental boards is screwing foreign grads big time, is just obvious protectionism. To me , is just disgusting. > Even if it is ever answered, it doesn't mean it will be > answered truthfully. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> >> Well stated SF. Oh, move on already. Signature/ Amatus / >I thought the right to practice is determined by education, not by the >school loans, but US boards some of you think the other way. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >>> >>> Well stated SF. I do admire your honesty, at least you said it out loud: Make them pay! Is all about $$$$ > Oh, move on already. > >>I thought the right to practice is determined by education, not by the -\>>school loans, but US boards some of you think the other way. >> The clear goal of US dental boards is screwing foreign grads big time, is >> just obvious protectionism. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >>>> >>>> Well stated SF. > I thought the right to practice is determined by education, not by the > school loans, but US boards some of you think the other way. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > To me , is just disgusting. Like I stated earlier, life isn't fair. However getting a free dental degree and then getting a license where everyone else has to spend thousands of dollars to pay for their education isn't playing fair either. One reason dental fees may be higher in the US is because the dentists (at least the ones who went to school here) have to make enough money to repay those loans. If you come without having to repay loans, *you* are the one with an unfair advantage. Imagine having to start payments on $200,000 of debt as you picked up a mirror and explorer for the first time in private practice. And that doesn't count the overhead of running an office (rent, equipment, labor, supplies, lab, etc.)! And it doesn't count also trying to make enough *profit* to earn a living! If your dental education was basically free for you, it wasn't free for your countrymen, and you are cheating them out of tax money by leaving. Talk about working a system. JMO, Steve Fawks what about all US jobs sent to India? people have to adapt >> I thought the right to practice is determined by education, not by the >> school loans, but US boards some of you think the other way. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > JMO, > Steve Fawks Average dental graduate debt is over $300K now. Signature/ Amatus / >> I thought the right to practice is determined by education, not by the >> school loans, but US boards some of you think the other way. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > JMO, > Steve Fawks > Average dental graduate debt is over $300K now. Don't doubt it a bit. I just didn't want to exaggerate. :-) D what's 300 k for a dentist?<<< >> Average dental graduate debt is over $300K now. > > Don't doubt it a bit. I just didn't want to exaggerate. > > :-) > D > what's 300 k for a dentist?<<< You live in a different world. 300K to any average person , dentist or not, is a lot of money. The little sympathy on this site that anyone had for you is rapidly deteriorating. John The little sympathy on this site that anyone had for you > is rapidly deteriorating. I am very saddened to hear that from a nice person on this board, but consider a successful dentist with 600 k collection a year and 50 % overhead. I know dentists having millions in their bank accounts , more than one. Unfortunately, I do not have that much. For a new graduate, is indeed a lot of money. I should have said : what is 300 k for a dentist who has been practicing for a very long time, my mistake, sorry! I still believe that is worth paying 300 k to become a dentist , you can repay the loans Being a dentist is a tough job , but I think is financially rewarding. As somebody said on this board, it seems that MD's are getting screwed by the system and making less money than dentists. >> what's 300 k for a dentist?<<< > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > John Who were you responding to John? Signature/ Amatus / > >> what's 300 k for a dentist?<<< [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > John > Who were you responding to John? To me, CA_DDS, the dentist licensed in the biggest state in the USA, 33,871,648 in 2000, -, but unqualified for most other states. > Who were you responding to John? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> John now I get the point, so a some US dentists think that if someone went to school for free or a lot less, he should go to school again here, regardless of how good the foreign school is, just that he would be in debt at graduation. I disagree, I think is morally wrong, but I get your point > Even if it is ever answered, it doesn't mean it will be > answered truthfully. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> >> Well stated SF. IMO, you owe the country (where you got your free education) services to repay them for their investment. I told the admissions committee that I would return to a small town after graduation and serve an area that really needed a dentist. There were no contracts to sign and I could have headed off to the big city to try and hit it big. I stood by my word. I doubt that the people who provided your education expected you to run off to the US where you could make more money. They paid for your education to also help the citizens of your country have access to quality dental care. Did you ever think of that? Steve > now I get the point, so a some US dentists think that if someone went > to school for free or a lot less, he should go to school again here, > regardless of how good the foreign school is, just that he would be in > debt at graduation. > > I disagree, I think is morally wrong, but I get your point >> For a dentist to get a 'free' education in another country, and >> set up next to a dentist with thousands of dollars of debt before [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>>> >>>> Steve Fawks >>> Agreed, and a good final question. >>> >>> Well stated SF. I doubt that the people who provided your education expected you to run off to the US where you could make more money. They paid for your education to also help the citizens of your country have access to quality dental care. Did you ever think of that? Did you ever think how much educated people like me ( educated in all kind of fields) running away from their countries and coming to the states helped this country advance and be where it is now? > IMO, you owe the country (where you got your free education) > services to repay them for their investment. I told the [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >>>> >>>> Well stated SF. > Did you ever think how much educated people like me ( educated in all > kind of fields) running away from their countries and coming to the > states helped this country advance and be where it is now? OMG! You're right! Thank goodness you're here. Or not, Steve I paid hundreds of thousands in taxes here, so I brought my own contribution. It adds up. Thank goodness not everyone agrees with you. You forget this is a country of immigrants, with a majority of white people who killed most Indians (their ancestors I mean) >> Did you ever think how much educated people like me ( educated in all >> kind of fields) running away from their countries and coming to the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Or not, > Steve My country is W EUROPEAN , so , do not worry, is just fine, in fact maybe better than America is right now. If I came from Africa, yes , that would be a different story, it would matter having one dentist less. > IMO, you owe the country (where you got your free education) > services to repay them for their investment. I told the [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >>>> >>>> Well stated SF. >My country is W EUROPEAN , so , do not worry, is just fine, in fact maybe >better than America is right now. Then why not go back ? Greed and selfishness ? >If I came from Africa, yes , that would be a different story, it would >matter having one dentist less. You could go there too. > Then why not go back ? > Greed and selfishness ? I am staying here, jerk Go there on vacation only >>My country is W EUROPEAN , so , do not worry, is just fine, in fact maybe >>better than America is right now. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> > You could go there too. >> Then why not go back ? >> Greed and selfishness ? > >I am staying here, jerk Californication, right ? So many replies to my post , I think is a record on SMD >>> Then why not go back ? >>> Greed and selfishness ? >> >>I am staying here, jerk > > Californication, right ? > So many replies to my post , I think is a record on SMD LOL! You never met Joel. D Who is Joel?? >> So many replies to my post , I think is a record on SMD > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > D > Who is Joel?? Oh, the JOEL--search the google archives--if you dare! >>> So many replies to my post , I think is a record on SMD >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> D SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>> Then why not go back ? >>> Greed and selfishness ? >> >>I am staying here, jerk > > Californication, right ? Nah , making some more $$$$$$ for a few more years before the sweet early retirement (porcelain sells good in Cali, perfect fake B0 or even whiter smiles are all the rage) I think protectionism is unacceptable, but at least you agree that protectionism does exist in US dental licensing. That is why I have more respect for MD"s , they do not do this kind of sh.t to their foreign colleagues, even those who went to school for free. American MD's have study loans , too, but do not crush the foreign competition by requiring 2 extra years of medical school > Even if it is ever answered, it doesn't mean it will be > answered truthfully. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> >> Well stated SF. There is a crisis looming with American health care. As physicians have to work harder for less money (which is happening as we type), fewer US citizens are going to apply to med school, and at some point the government is going to have to step in. I have spoken to several physicians who are looking to get out of practice as the cuts are just ridiculous. The problem is not all from foreign physicians coming to the US, but that absolutely is having an effect. Steve > That is why I have more respect for MD"s , they do not do this kind of > sh.t to their foreign colleagues, even those who went to school for free. > > American MD's have study loans , too, but do not crush the foreign > competition by requiring 2 extra years of medical school what cuts are ridiculous, how much are they making that they want to get out? > There is a crisis looming with American health care. As physicians > have to work harder for less money (which is happening as we type), [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> American MD's have study loans , too, but do not crush the foreign >> competition by requiring 2 extra years of medical school > what cuts are ridiculous, how much are they making that they want to get > out? I was visiting with *the* local surgeon at a gas station, so I didn't exactly write them all down. I do remember he stated that his reimbursement rate for a particular surgery had been *CUT* three times in the last year or two. I can't quote the exact numbers, but they were significant. He lacks the ability to charge whatever fee he thinks he is worth with the current system. He also mentioned how many appendectomies he had performed in the last year for patients within a 30 mile radius of the local hospital. He claims the 'bean counters aren't taking into consideration what would happen to the total health care picture if he packed it in and left. These patients would have to travel another hour to a larger hospital (that is already operating at near capacity) and actually pay more for the same treatment. He certainly mentioned other examples, but that was a brief conversation in July. The bottom line is that his income is getting cut, and he is seriously considering other options. It's not good for anyone. D So do you think that foreign MD's lowered the doctor's income? > There is a crisis looming with American health care. As physicians > have to work harder for less money (which is happening as we type), [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> American MD's have study loans , too, but do not crush the foreign >> competition by requiring 2 extra years of medical school > I think protectionism is unacceptable, but at least you agree that > protectionism does exist in US dental licensing. > > That is why I have more respect for MD"s , they do not do this kind of > sh.t to their foreign colleagues, even those who went to school for free. Take this for what it's worth--we do not have enough domestic medical school grads to fill specialty training programs. We have enough dental school grads to fulfill dental needs that can be economically supported. You think the difference has to do with the morality of the licensing boards, that's your prerogative. Your problem is not with us. You feel free to vent, or examine your options and pick the best one for you. Good luck, Steve > You think the difference has to do with the morality of the licensing > boards, that's your prerogative. Yes, this is what I think, I may be wrong, but not allowing a US trained specialist to practice in any state (if he went to a foreign dental school) is unjustifiable and immoral. They would send an oral surgeon ,US trained,back to dental school in order to practice in NY, NJ and most of states. How immoral and f##ed up is that? This is all I am asking the dental boards: If you want 2 more years of education, at least allow me to do a residency instead of dental school. Only 5 of them would allow that.THE REST: shameless and discriminatory policies And one more thing: There are other countries saturated with dentists , but ONLY US and CANADA are doing this, that is why I think the dental boards are immoral. UK, AUSTRALIA, NEW ZEALAND , etc DO NOT require 2 extra years of dental school for a foreign dentist. >> I think protectionism is unacceptable, but at least you agree that >> protectionism does exist in US dental licensing. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Good luck, > Steve Thank you for wishing me good luck, you are one of the very few who had something nice to say to me. I also appreciate the replies from Steven Fawks, he does not agree with me , but at least he made it clear the policies are motivated by $$$$$, not by the foreign dentists being incompetent and needing extra education, He said : make them pay, because we paid for school in the US and we have debt. >> I think protectionism is unacceptable, but at least you agree that >> protectionism does exist in US dental licensing. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Good luck, > Steve Interesting point , though, and unfortunately true: the right to practice dentistry should be awarded only to those with debt from study loans... This is how it goes in America... > Even if it is ever answered, it doesn't mean it will be > answered truthfully. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> >> Well stated SF. > Interesting point , though, and unfortunately true: > > the right to practice dentistry should be awarded only to those with > debt from study loans... > > This is how it goes in America... How about the guy who takes his 'free' education (paid for by taxes on his fellow countrymen) and takes off to another country so he can make more money? That sounds like embezzlement, or even larceny based on greed and selfishness. Steve my family paid so much in taxes in my country, that made more than enough for my education, I am currently paying taxes in my country from income I am getting there from some investments, I respect your opinion, but I do not agree with you >> Interesting point , though, and unfortunately true: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Steve > my family paid so much in taxes in my country Borderline socialism does require a high tax. Steve I really do not believe in socialism and helping the poor in a country where I am getting cheated on by the dental boards, sorry , but nobody is helping me either. Actually the protectionist licensing system is screwing me big time! From what I hear welfare patients have the highest cancellation rate! I would see welfare patients for a while if I could get a NY license, but is not an option On Oct 15, 7:15 pm, "Amatus Cremona" <Nic...@sottovocce.com> wrote: > >> You'll get no sympathy from me, only ridicule. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > other States, and,,,,,,,,,,,, never intended to help out the underserved > areas. Amatus, you got that right. As a California dentist for many, many years, I am familiar with the quirks in California law that allowed applicants to obtain a dental license in California WITHOUT first obtaining an accredited education. Back when the legislature first passed that loophole in 1971, it was due to political pressure from a couple of local foreign-born citizen groups, who said they preferred dentists of their own ethnicity. Political contributions greased the way (as always), and California became the ONLY state to license dentists without an accredited education. The other 49 states had the sense to require an accredited dental degree before a dental license could be obtained -- but not here in California. The legislature sold this loophole to the public and the profession as a means to supply dentists to the poor. What a joke. As "CA-DDS" has mentioned above, he has no intention of repaying the leniency of California by helping the poor when he can slap veneers on the people of Beverly Hills for megabucks and retire at age 40. So the state now has about 5000 dentists who are inelgible to practice anywhere else in the country because all the OTHER jurisdictions expect a dentist to have a dental degree from an accredited dental school. What a novel idea -- requiring a dentist to have an accredited dental degree! It's a good standard for 49 states, and the entire nation of Canada. But California doesn't bother to require the education. The problem is not with the high standards of the other 49 states; the problem is with California, and its deceptive practice of luring foreign dentists here, telling the public that the purpose is to serve "underserved communities." Then the foreign dentists quickly learn that they can sell overpriced porcelain to anyone, as the public had learned in earlier generations to trust dentists as professionals, not as salesmen. Now we have in California a situation where huge numbers of dentists crowd into the richer areas so they can "retire at 40" and the "underserved population" is still perpetually underserved. In my city of 63 dentists, only 3 of us even accept Medicaid patients any more. (The reason is obvious: there is no pay for the work.) Before those 5000 dentists moved here, taking the easy path of obtaining a license without the required education, they really should have done some "due diligence" to discover that 49 states still require an accredited education. Instead they listened to the siren song of California's misleading political establishment. By the way, here's a good one that seems to flabbergast dentists from other states when they hear it for the first time: California has LEGALIZED the use of the "D.D.S." degree even when that degree has NEVER been earned! That means some 3000 or 4000 dentists in this state legally hang out shingles with their name and "D.D.S." when in reality they have never obtained that degree. I'll bet you won't find THAT deceptive practice legalized by any other state! There is much more, but I won't bore everyone with all the details that took me 30 years to learn. Politics is a dirty art. - dentaldoc >Thank you for your reply. > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> I guess that dentistry, unlike medicine, is practiced differently in each >> state. In my last year of my OMFS residency I was offered an associate position in Delaware. Regardless of the NERB exam I had to take the DE boards. So here I was doing the chief surgical resident routine- panfacial reconstructions, tumors, cosmetic surgery etc. with glee I had to retrain myself to do a Class2 amalgam, Class4 composite and a gold. All of this was so relevent to my career in OMFS. I was the only one dying for the pathology slides which all 100 took me about 30 secs of thought. Another dental board scam, click here: http://www.state.nj.us/oag/ca/dentistry/minutes/den317.htm US trained periodontist cannot practice in NEW JERSEY, but is licensed in another US state!!!! I bet they wouldn't even let him work as a hygienist!! Greedy new jersey dental board protectionist hyenas!!! 4. Dr. David Sarment - Application for a dental license. Dr. Sarment obtained a D.D.S. degree in 1994 from University of Paris, France. He indicates that he is board certified in Periodontics and holds a dental license and specialty license in the State of Michigan. The committee recommends that this application be denied because he is a foreign graduate and does not meet the requirements for licensure. The Board referred this issue ( NJSA 45:6-6) to the regulation committee for review. The Board suggests that the wording referring to foreign dentists should be removed >>Thank you for your reply. >> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > one dying for the pathology slides which all 100 took me about 30 secs > of thought. |
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