Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / December 2007
Cleveland Clinic Dispute Intensifies
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Marilyn Mann - 07 Dec 2007 14:45 GMT Cleveland Clinic Dispute Intensifies Fired Doctor Sues, Claiming Conflicts Pervasive at Hospital By DAVID ARMSTRONG December 7, 2007; Page B6
A former department head at the Cleveland Clinic sued the hospital over alleged defamation and discrimination, saying that the institution is plagued by financial conflicts of interest similar to the kind that were cited as grounds for his dismissal.
Jay Yadav, who headed the clinic's vascular intervention unit until he was fired last year, said a number of the hospital's top doctors promote devices and treatments that they have a financial interest in, sometimes without informing patients.
The suit highlights the dangers facing big hospitals and academic medical centers as they respond to pressure over conflicts of interest. Dr. Yadav was dismissed for allegedly not complying with the clinic's conflict of interest policies. His lawsuit, filed yesterday in Ohio state court, says he was being scapegoated.
The clinic, in a statement, denied the allegations in the lawsuit and said it planned to file a response as well as a "counter claim for substantial expenses incurred to review his research."
Getting rid of doctors over issues related to conflicts of interest is rare. Dr. Yadav says others at the clinic weren't sanctioned -- and his legal action could become an embarrassing public battle for the clinic.
The clinic instituted tougher conflict policies in early 2006 after The Wall Street Journal detailed the undisclosed investments of the clinic and certain of its doctors in unproven products used there on patients. Dr. Yadav had financial stakes in two companies whose experimental products were tested on clinic patients. He says the clinic was well aware of his conflicts and that he properly reported them -- but that he was fired so that the clinic could look tough ahead of a Cleveland Plain Dealer article about his outside activities.
His suit alleges the clinic has been "indifferent" to financial conflicts of interest and that such situations are "widespread and pervasive." Those conflicts start at the top with clinic chief executive Delos "Toby" Cosgrove, according to the complaint.
The lawsuit says the clinic heavily promotes and uses an invention of Dr. Cosgrove's in patients undergoing heart-valve surgery. Dr. Cosgrove and the clinic both receive royalties from sales of the product, known as the Cosgrove-Edwards ring and marketed by Edwards Lifesciences Corp. The lawsuit says patients aren't given the choice of using competing rings or told that the hospital and its chief executive profit from sales of the Cosgrove-Edwards ring.
The clinic confirmed Dr. Cosgrove and the hospital share royalties, but declined to answer questions about what patients are told and how much the institution and Dr. Cosgrove earn from sales of the ring. The clinic said the royalty payments were proper.
In another case, the lawsuit says orthopedic surgeon Isador Lieberman, a member of the hospital's conflict-of-interest committee, failed to disclose his significant financial interests in Kyphon Inc. That company manufactures equipment for an orthopedic procedure that Dr. Lieberman advocated and tested at the clinic. The clinic said Dr. Lieberman fully cooperated with a review of his conflict disclosures and that "all appropriate actions were taken."
In all of the cases cited in the lawsuit, Dr. Yadav alleges there was no disciplinary action taken against those doctors. The lawsuit alleges that Dr. Yadav, who was born in India, was a victim of discrimination. The clinic, however, said it "consistently and fairly applied its policies to all of its physicians."
Dr. Yadav says his reputation has been tarnished by the clinic. He says his state medical license notes that he lost his privileges at the clinic, and he hasn't found a new job practicing medicine. He has been serving as chief executive of Cardiomems Inc., an Atlanta company he helped create while still at the clinic.
Dr. Yadav says the clinic accused him of not properly disclosing royalty payments for a device he invented to prevent blockages in patients who receive a neck stent. While he doesn't receive royalty payments, Dr. Yadav says he was compensated with shares by the company that acquired his technology. That company, called Angioguard Inc., was bought by a unit of Johnson & Johnson in 1999.
A copy of that purchase agreement indicates that all shareholders of Angioguard were entitled to deferred payments if certain milestones were met, such as sales targets. Among the other shareholders entitled to the same deferred payments were top officials at the clinic, such as surgeon Kenneth Ouriel, according to the lawsuit.
Dr. Ouriel didn't disclose these payments, according to the lawsuit. The clinic yesterday said: "Dr. Ouriel received a few hundreds of dollars versus tens of thousands of dollars that Dr. Yadav received. Dr. Ouriel's situation was thoroughly reviewed and he fully cooperated by taking appropriate actions to rectify the situation immediately. After the review, the Clinic officials determined that Dr. Ouriel had not knowingly violated Cleveland Clinic policies."
Dr. Yadav says he properly disclosed the deferred payments as early as 2002 in a document filed with a clinic review board. The document, which was reviewed by the Journal., states Dr. Yadav was entitled to deferred payments tied to sales. In 2003, he made a similar disclosure to the Food and Drug Administration, according to a copy of that filing.
Write to David Armstrong at david.armstrong@wsj.com
* * * How a Famed Hospital Invests In Device It Uses and Promotes
Cleveland Clinic Set Up Fund That Has Stock in Maker Of Heart-Surgery System
Dr. Cosgrove's Multiple Roles By DAVID ARMSTRONG Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL December 12, 2005
CLEVELAND -- Since 2001, more than 1,200 patients at the prestigious Cleveland Clinic have had an operation aimed at correcting atrial fibrillation, a form of heart fluttering.
Doctors commonly call it the "AtriCure procedure," after the maker of the equipment used in the surgery, a company called AtriCure Inc. In medical journals and at conferences, the Cleveland Clinic and its doctors have been leading advocates of the AtriCure procedure.
The Clinic's relationship with AtriCure, however, goes deeper. A venture-capital partnership that the Clinic helped found and invested in owns about 4.1% of AtriCure's stock, valued at about $7 million. The Clinic's chief executive, heart surgeon Delos "Toby" Cosgrove, sat on AtriCure's board of directors until March. He also invested personally in the fund and was one of the general partners managing it until, according to a Clinic spokeswoman, he cut his ties to the fund at the end of October.
In addition, Dr. Cosgrove will be entitled to royalties for a medical device he developed that AtriCure plans to begin selling next year. Marc Gillinov, another Clinic surgeon who performs the AtriCure procedure, is a paid consultant to the company, as is another doctor who recently left the Clinic.
The Clinic didn't disclose these ties to AtriCure to the patients on whom it performed the AtriCure procedure. The venture fund the Clinic helped found has also invested in two other medical companies conducting clinical trials at the Clinic.
All this last spring came to the attention of the hospital's conflict- of-interests committee, where famed cardiologist Eric Topol and blood specialist Alan Lichtin were among those who questioned the ties to AtriCure, according to people familiar with the situation. Dr. Cosgrove last week told Dr. Topol he was losing his top post at the Clinic's medical school, a change that will take Dr. Topol off the conflict-of-interests committee and the Clinic board of governors. Dr. Topol also is an outspoken critic of Vioxx, the withdrawn Merck & Co. drug, and testified at a trial against Merck.
The Clinic ascribed Dr. Topol's loss of his medical-school position -- as provost and chief academic officer -- to an administrative reorganization. Asked whether it was related to his criticism of Vioxx or of the Clinic's ties to AtriCure, the Clinic spokeswoman said no. Dr. Topol had a conflicts issue of his own last year when an investment fund to which he was a paid adviser bet against Merck's stock. He resigned that post.
The Cleveland Clinic's board of trustees, meeting Monday, is expected to discuss the change in Dr. Topol's status, which needs its approval. Meanwhile, at the behest of the conflicts committee, the Clinic this spring redid a consent form for atrial-fibrillation patients taking part in clinical trials, and it imposed a limit on the consulting fees doctors could earn.
The Cleveland Clinic is a huge and prominent establishment with 30,000 employees and $3.8 billion in revenue last year. Besides its main 155- acre complex, it owns eight other hospitals in the area, two more in Florida and three hotels. Its cardiac center, routinely ranked No. 1 by U.S. News and World Report magazine, is building a new $400 million complex in the city.
In an interview, Dr. Cosgrove said the Clinic favors the AtriCure procedure because it works and is safe, not because of any financial considerations. Clinic doctors and others have reported that nearly 90% of patients have normal heart rhythms six months after the procedure. Long-term data are sketchy.
The Food and Drug Administration has three times rejected AtriCure's application to have its system approved for cardiac use, most recently earlier this year. Doctors may legally do the procedure anyway because the equipment is approved for "soft tissue" surgery. Though that category doesn't include the heart, they may use it on the heart in what's known as "off-label" usage. AtriCure says that all current use of its equipment is off-label.
Four patients are known to have died shortly after having the AtriCure procedure, at hospitals other than Cleveland Clinic. AtriCure didn't notify the FDA -- which requires companies to tell it of any "adverse consequences" related to their products -- because it says it didn't believe its equipment was to blame. Dr. Cosgrove said he wasn't aware of the patient deaths.
As for the three FDA rejections of AtriCure applications for heart use, Dr. Cosgrove said much of the medicine practiced in the U.S. is off-label. "It's the nature of what we do and how we learn," he said. "The important thing is the candor by which you discuss results and failures."
A research ethicist, Adil Shamoo of the University of Maryland, says the Clinic shouldn't perform any research related to companies in which it invests. "The whole process of institutions having large- scale holdings in equities is corrupting the process," said Dr. Shamoo, a biochemist who edits a journal called Accountability in Research. "It sends the wrong message and could lead to serious harm to human subjects because it clouds your judgment." The U.S. Health and Human Services Department requires hospitals to consider the impact of financial ties on human research work and develop plans to manage, reduce or eliminate the conflicts. How they do so is left largely to them.
The Cleveland Clinic began looking for new ways to make money several years ago amid financial stress caused by managed-care programs, by cuts in Medicare reimbursements and later by stock-market losses in its endowment. Around the country, many doctors have reacted to pressures such as these by looking for business opportunities. Some have started specialty hospitals that target profitable patients. Others get extra compensation from labs and scanning centers for sending them patients, despite laws against fees for referral. It is so common for leading doctors to be compensated by industry that medical-journal editors say it can be hard to find disinterested parties to do peer reviews.
The Clinic first explored the idea of a venture-capital fund in 1998, "seeking to leverage its intellectual capital to generate returns for the institution," according to a recent memorandum seeking investors for a second venture fund. Dr. Cosgrove, then chairman of thoracic and cardiovascular surgery, was tapped to lead the effort.
He turned to Harry Rein, a friend who managed Canaan Partners, a Connecticut venture-capital fund in which Dr. Cosgrove was, and remains, an investor. The Clinic's full name is the Cleveland Clinic Foundation, and the fund took a name based on that: Foundation Medical Partners, or FMP. Dr. Cosgrove said in an interview that trustees approved his role at FMP, which is confirmed by the board chairman, Malachi Mixon. Dr. Cosgrove didn't become the Cleveland Clinic's CEO until last year.
At the fund's launch in 2001, the Clinic was its largest investor, supplying $25 million of the $61 million raised from investors, known as limited partners. The Clinic is entitled to 38% of its profits. Dr. Cosgrove also invested in the fund personally. He became one of a handful of general partners managing the fund.
FMP uses its clinic tie to suggest to prospective investors that it has an edge in spotting promising young companies. A document for a second FMP fund now being organized notes that the Clinic's "prominence, prestige, and sheer scale...prompt" many health-care entrepreneurs to seek to develop a relationship with the institution.
In 2002, FMP invested $3 million in AtriCure, then a private Cincinnati start-up that was one of several companies, including Guidant Corp. and Medtronic Inc., making surgical devices to treat atrial fibrillation.
An estimated 2.2 million Americans have this condition, which was once thought relatively benign but which the American Heart Association now blames for about 15% of strokes. Atrial fibrillation causes no symptoms in many people, but others get dizzy spells, nausea, chest pains and shortness of breath. Doctors usually start patients on drugs to control heart rhythm and on blood thinners to reduce the risk of stroke, though these drugs don't work for many patients.
AtriCure's system uses radiofrequency energy to destroy heart tissue near pulmonary veins that are believed to carry electrical impulses causing the irregular heart beat. The aim is to create scar tissue at the site that will block the impulses.
AtriCure makes a special clamp that doctors apply to heart tissue in the operation. It is wired to an AtriCure generator, which delivers the radio energy to create scar tissue. Then the clamp is removed. AtriCure says it has some 50% of the market for surgery to treat atrial fibrillation.
AtriCure has won frequent endorsements from the Cleveland Clinic and its surgeons. For instance, at an American Association for Thoracic Surgery meeting last year, Dr. Cosgrove took the pro side in a debate about whether atrial-fibrillation surgery should be done on patients having a heart-valve replacement. He mentioned only one company by name, AtriCure.
Not mentioned during the debate or in the disclosure section of the program guide was his seat on AtriCure's board or his investment ties to the company. A Clinic spokeswoman said his secretary mistakenly checked a box on a disclosure form indicating he had no conflict.
The Clinic's Drs. Cosgrove and Gillinov were among authors of a study published in the Journal of Thoracic and Cardiovascular Surgery of 513 AtriCure surgery patients at the Clinic in June. It found that 87% were free of atrial fibrillation after six months, declining to 72% after one year. The journal disclosed Dr. Gillinov's tie to AtriCure -- he's a paid consultant to it -- but not Dr. Cosgrove's. Dr. Cosgrove said it was "an oversight on my part."
Dr. Gillinov and another surgeon then at the clinic, Patrick McCarthy, co-wrote a favorable review of AtriCure's technology in the Annals of Thoracic Surgery in 2002. The journal mentioned they'd been asked to become AtriCure consultants, which they later did. AtriCure granted each doctor options to buy 25,000 shares of its stock, it said in a June filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Dr. Gillinov, through a clinic spokeswoman, said he declined the options offer. An attorney for AtriCure said Dr. Gillinov doesn't own AtriCure options now, but "if it was in the prospectus, it was true then." Dr. Gillinov is paid $10,000 a year as an AtriCure consultant, said Eileen Sheil, the spokeswoman for the Clinic. She said he had been paid more, but the Clinic forced him this spring to reduce it to conform to its guidelines.
Dr. McCarthy, who confirmed his options grant, said he was a paid AtriCure consultant while at the Clinic and currently gets $2,000 a month from the company. He said he continues to perform the atrial- fibrillation surgery with the AtriCure procedure, as well as with other companies' systems, in his current position as chief of cardiothoracic surgery at Northwestern Memorial Hospital in Chicago. He said he didn't need any convincing because he believes in the procedure.
Conflicts Committee
Last winter the Cleveland Clinic's conflict-of-interest committee learned that the FMP venture fund was an investor in companies doing research at the Clinic, said committee chairman Guy Chisholm. He said the committee was informed by the hospital's Institutional Review Board, headed by Dr. Lichtin. It had been told of the investment by a doctor who ran across the ties to AtriCure while researching the AtriCure procedure.
The conflicts committee and review board also learned that the FMP fund had invested in two other companies conducting trials at the Clinic: Immunicon Corp. and CardioMems Inc. FMP has invested $5 million in Immunicon, a Pennsylvania developer of cancer-screening products, and $3 million in CardioMems, an Atlanta maker of heart devices. The Clinic also has a direct investment of $2.75 million in Immunicon.
Some committee members worried that the Clinic's ties to AtriCure could color what patients were told when weighing treatment options. They also worried that their CEO's roles at AtriCure and the venture fund that invested in the company created a conflict, said someone familiar with the panel's discussions. At a minimum, the committee concluded, patients should be told of the Clinic's and doctors' financial ties, according to Dr. Chisholm, a Ph.D. researcher at the Clinic. He said many Clinic doctors and nurses conducting the research were unaware of the links.
Mr. Rein, Dr. Cosgrove's investing partner said there is a natural tension at the Clinic between those who believe "all of this is a bunch of people trying to take advantage of patients" and those who believe the entrepreneurial efforts are part of a "virtuous cycle" where the clinic and patients both benefit from medical advances.
The Institutional Review Board in February directed Clinic researchers conducting clinical trials of the three companies' products to put a "voluntary" hold on their work, said Ms. Sheil, the Clinic spokeswoman. The hold was lifted in May after the Clinic reworded consent forms. The new forms say the Clinic and some of its doctors have financial ties to AtriCure and the other companies and "the Clinic would probably benefit financially if the research results are favorable." The forms don't name the doctors or give any dollar amounts.
None of the patients undergoing the AtriCure surgery outside of clinical trials will see these disclosures, Ms. Sheil said. So far, 1,247 patients have had the AtriCure procedure at the Clinic, including 16 who are enrolled in current clinical trials, and Ms. Sheil said Clinic staff members have performed the procedure on 100 more patients in other hospitals. None of these patients saw the new consent form with added disclosure.
Fund's Profits
The conflicts committee began to look into the role of Dr. Cosgrove at FMP and AtriCure, and some members wrote a detailed list of questions to submit to him, say people familiar with the matter. Not long afterward, Dr. Cosgrove stepped down from AtriCure's board and said he would give up his position as a general partner at FMP. Dr. Cosgrove said he wasn't prompted to vacate the posts by conflicts-committee pressure but by his wish to avoid the perception of a conflict. He said he had already been thinking about the issue and what he should do about it before the committee raised it.
Among the questions the panel posed was how much he earned as a general partner at FMP and how much he got of fund profits. According to internal Clinic documents, the fund's general partners were entitled to share an annual management fee of 2.75% of the money raised from investors, fees that total about $1.7 million a year. There were three general partners.
The fund distributes 80% of its profits to limited partners. Of the other 20%, a 6-percentage-point slice goes to the Clinic and a 14- point chunk is divided among the general partners.
The fund's profits are known as "the carry." Mr. Rein said in an interview that Dr. Cosgrove was "compensated with carry," but didn't receive any of the management fees. Mr. Rein said the fund has made one distribution of profits and Dr. Cosgrove would have received a payment from that distribution. Later, however, Mr. Rein said that general partners hadn't received any of the profits distributed by the fund so far, that only limited partners had.
Dr. Cosgrove said he was required to invest in the fund by virtue of his role as a general partner. Mr. Rein said the three general partners at the time the fund was created, including Dr. Cosgrove, put in a total of 1% of the total raised, or about $600,000. He said the fund lent them the money to invest.
Clinic spokeswoman Ms. Sheil initially said that Dr. Cosgrove told her, "I have not received one penny from FMP." Later, when told of Mr. Rein's description of the distribution, she said, "He hasn't received anything yet..., but when and if it gets to him, he will donate it to the Clinic." Ms. Sheil said that Dr. Cosgrove ceased having any role at FMP at the end of October.
Dr. Cosgrove said he never received any fund distributions and any future payments "will go the Clinic." He said he has no more financial interest in FMP -- "I gave it all up." He declined to say what had become of the money he personally invested.
Canaan Partners
The second FMP venture fund that's now raising money says in a "private-placement" document that "with Dr. Cosgrove's decision to change his role" at FMP, the Clinic's chief of staff, Joseph Hahn, "was selected to join the firm as a partner." The document says he will spend one day a week on fund business. Mr. Rein said Dr. Hahn said won't be paid by the fund. The Clinic has committed to put $20 million in this second fund, which is just beginning to invest.
Dr. Cosgrove confirmed he also has a financial interest in companies doing research at the Clinic through his personal investment in Canaan Partners, the venture fund Mr. Rein founded and ran for many years. Mr. Rein left Canaan in 2002 to work for FMP, later investing in it and becoming one of its general partners. Mr. Rein is also Cleveland Clinic trustee.
Canaan and FMP share a street address in Rowayton, Conn., and have invested in many of the same companies. Canaan owns 9% of Immunicon, according to that company's latest SEC filing, and also has invested in other companies with which the Clinic has done or is doing clinical trials. These investments aren't a concern, said Dr. Chisholm, the conflicts-committee chairman, because Dr. Cosgrove doesn't influence Canaan's investments.
Dr. Cosgrove also has developed a device for AtriCure, related to its procedure, which the company says it plans to begin marketing in the second half of next year. Dr. Cosgrove would receive royalties for this device, known as the Cosgrove Clip. Dr. Chisholm said he'd be surprised if the conflicts committee would want to intervene in that matter if it was in place before Dr. Cosgrove became the Clinic's CEO.
Prominent doctors and hospitals can be helpful to start-up medical companies in a number of ways. At AtriCure, these have included assistance in advancing a minimally invasive version of the atrial- fibrillation surgery, involving just two small chest incisions.
This procedure brings AtriCure more money than the more common method of using its device, open-heart surgery. Average Medicare reimbursement for the less-invasive procedure is around $25,700, and AtriCure says it gets about $7,000 of that from sales of disposable equipment. With open-heart surgery, it gets about $2,500 in sales.
At a conference at the Cleveland Clinic last year, AtriCure Chief Executive David Drachman thanked the hospital and its doctors for helping persuade Medicare to approve the reimbursement rate for the minimally invasive version. In an interview later, he said the Clinic didn't directly lobby Medicare overseers, but helped boost the reimbursement argument by being "instrumental in advancing the whole field of surgical atrial-fibrillation treatment." He said surgical societies that include Clinic doctors among their leadership are directly involved with fighting for reimbursement.
Four Deaths
In June, when AtriCure filed with the SEC to go public, its prospectus listed among risk factors that "serious complications, including death...have been encountered in connection" with its minimally invasive procedure. Mr. Drachman said there have been four deaths. One occurred at Sarasota Memorial Hospital last year and prompted a "temporary moratorium" on the procedure that's still in place on the procedure, said an official of the Florida hospital.
Another death was in Dallas. The doctor who did that operation was Michael Mack. He said the patient died three days afterward when a clot developed in his leg. Dr. Mack said the death wasn't due to any defect in the AtriCure equipment, but "I have to say it is related to the procedure. The point of fact is the guy had the procedure and three days later he had a complication from it."
While the death was "very disconcerting," Dr. Mack said, he believes the minimally invasive surgery is safe and has done it 40 times. He said he is taking part in a AtriCure-sponsored clinical trial and has no financial tie to the company. The Cleveland Clinic's relationship with AtriCure, Dr. Mack said, "is a funny position for the Clinic to be in: As much as you would like to stay unbiased or conflicted, if you do have a financial stake, you want the procedure to do well."
AtriCure's Mr. Drachman said the company heard about Sarasota and Dallas deaths months after they occurred, contacted the surgeons and determined the deaths were unrelated to any problem with its equipment. While not disclosing any deaths to the FDA, he noted that AtriCure did disclose two to the SEC. They were cases where the company had conversations with the surgeons "during the time the patients were dying." AtriCure didn't tell the SEC of the Sarasota or Dallas deaths because they were never "officially reported to the company," he said.
Write to David Armstrong at david.armstrong@wsj.com
* * *
Interesting. I would like to see the complaint. Perhaps the WSJ will post a link.
Marilyn
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 08 Dec 2007 00:14 GMT This story simply shows that money is at the root of all evil.
Primum non nocere.
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/BeBlessed:
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
> Cleveland Clinic Dispute Intensifies > Fired Doctor Sues, [quoted text clipped - 523 lines] > > Marilyn J666 - 08 Dec 2007 00:56 GMT Convicted Andrew B. Chung did scribe
> This story simply shows that money is at the root of all evil. Then by offering money, supposedly 2 million dollars, as a challenge, you are evil. Shame on you Chung.
So now besides lying and shunning God's gift to you, you are evil - it is right that you have been convicted.
Michael, row the boat ashore - 08 Dec 2007 12:39 GMT > Convicted Andrew B. Chung did scribe >> This story simply shows that money is at the root of all evil. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So now besides lying and shunning God's gift to you, you are evil - > it is right that you have been convicted. Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!
We have a winner!
-M-
Don Kirkman - 08 Dec 2007 07:15 GMT It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in article <f8f81709-0f20-4349-9440-fe64886afd9a@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
>This story simply shows that money is at the root of all evil. Well, you've really improved on and modernized St. Paul's version; he was dumb enough to write "For the *love of money* is the root of all evils," but what did he know, anyway? :-)
 Signature Don Kirkman
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 08 Dec 2007 08:15 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > >This story simply shows that money is at the root of all evil. > > Well, you've really improved on and modernized St. Paul's version; No. This is simply a different perspective.
> he > was dumb enough to write "For the *love of money* is the root of all > evils," but what did he know, anyway? :-) In the Holy Spirit, we know much more in an instant than you ever will in your entire lifespan.
All glory to GOD.
Laus Deo ! ! !
May we, who are Jesus' brethren continue to pray for your endangered soul:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts/PrayForDon
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
J666 - 08 Dec 2007 12:38 GMT Convicted Andrew B. Chung did scribe
> > >This story simply shows that money is at the root of all evil. > > > Well, you've really improved on and modernized St. Paul's version; > > No. This is simply a different perspective. Chung - then you are evil to offer 2 million dollars.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 08 Dec 2007 12:58 GMT satan via a sermite sockpuppet (corporeal demon) hissed:
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Chung - then you are evil to offer 2 million dollars. Water is at the root of all living plants.
This does not make water a living plant...
...nor does this make the gardener who waters the plants a living plant.
Bottom line:
You remain the source of all lies, satan.
It is the source of all lies, who is evil.
As it is written, lying is your native language.
You, satan, have been a liar from the beginning...
... a murderer from the outset.
You are evil, satan.
In the awesome holy name of LORD Jesus Christ, I rebuke you once more before an ever growing cloud of witnesses:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convict/Rebukesatan
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
J666 - 08 Dec 2007 14:09 GMT On Dec 8, 6:58 am, Convicted and Evil Andrew B. Chung did scribe:
> > > > >This story simply shows that money is at the root of all evil. > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > You are evil, satan. BUT, Chung you are the one who said money, not water, is the root of all evil and you are using money so you are EVIL and the Holy Spirit was correct in convicting you for this along with your lying and shunning God's gift to you - the pathetic thing is that you do not even realize that.
Mark K. Bilbo - 08 Dec 2007 20:25 GMT > satan via a sermite sockpuppet (corporeal demon) hissed: >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > ...nor does this make the gardener who waters the plants a living plant. Oh great, the Chung bot's gone into a Koan loop...
 Signature Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion ------------------------------------------------------------ “The cynics are right nine times out of ten.”
- H. L. Mencken
Mark K. Bilbo - 08 Dec 2007 20:25 GMT >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > No. This is simply a different perspective. And remember folks, the bible is inerrant except where it contradicts Chung, the very son of god hisownself...
 Signature Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion ------------------------------------------------------------ “Honor is simply the morality of superior men.”
- H. L. Mencken
Mark K. Bilbo - 08 Dec 2007 20:24 GMT > This story simply shows that money is at the root of all evil. So give me all of yours.
(I'm only trying to help)
 Signature Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion ------------------------------------------------------------ “It is one of the Christian delusions that Christianity brought charity into the world. It did no such thing. There were plenty of agencies for taking care of the poor and helpless long before Christianity was heard of, and even before Judaism. Both Christianity and Judaism have converted charity into a sort of pious racket.”
- H. L. Mencken
yamantaka@aol.com - 08 Dec 2007 16:33 GMT > Cleveland Clinic Dispute Intensifies > Fired Doctor Sues, [quoted text clipped - 199 lines] > > read more >> Marilyn, thank you for these interesting links. it is too bad that any intelligent discussion is quashed by Chung's idiocy.
Marilyn Mann - 08 Dec 2007 16:38 GMT On Dec 8, 11:33 am, yamant...@aol.com wrote:
> Marilyn, thank you for these interesting links. You're welcome.
Marilyn
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