Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / October 2007
controversy over SHAPE guidelines
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MarilynMann - 04 Oct 2007 02:39 GMT http://www.ccjm.org/PDFFILES/Lauer9_07.pdf
http://www.ccjm.org/PDFFILES/Naghavi10_07.pdf
Cleveland Clinic Journal of Medicine
http://shapesociety.blogspot.com/
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 04 Oct 2007 11:15 GMT > http://www.ccjm.org/PDFFILES/Lauer9_07.pdf > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://shapesociety.blogspot.com/ If we started doing calcium scores and carotid intimal thicknesses on everyone who we believed to be at risk, we would soon learn that everyone with VAT is abnormal and has vascular disease.
This finding, however, would be meaningless because after screening the more than 75% of Americans who are overweight and/or obese, there would be no money left for either medical, interventional, or surgical treatment.
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
MarilynMann - 04 Oct 2007 14:10 GMT On Oct 4, 6:15 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> >http://www.ccjm.org/PDFFILES/Lauer9_07.pdf > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > would be no money left for either medical, interventional, or surgical > treatment. You have a good point.
Marilyn
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 04 Oct 2007 18:12 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Marilyn Appreciate your favorable comment :-)
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for moving you to write favorably thereby mortally wounding satan, who remains the source of all the lies that are destroying America's health care system:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8f54f47c625b35b2?
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 04 Oct 2007 20:16 GMT On Oct 4, 1:12 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > source of all the lies that are destroying America's health care > system Satan is dead?
Then so is "sin."
Do what thou wilt!
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 04 Oct 2007 21:38 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Satan is dead? No.
There remains the lake of fire that awaits him.
> Then so is "sin." Sin will cease to exist when all those who oppose GOD's will cease to exist.
> Do what thou wilt! Wiser to do GOD's will or end up being among those who will be destroyed along with satan.
This simply shows that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict you:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 04 Oct 2007 21:46 GMT On Oct 4, 4:38 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > There remains the lake of fire that awaits him. What possible threat to a noncorporeal being is fire?
> > Then so is "sin." > > Sin will cease to exist when all those who oppose GOD's will cease to > exist. Sin will cease to exist when you realize how ridiculous the concept is.
> > Do what thou wilt! > > Wiser to do GOD's will or end up being among those who will be > destroyed along with satan. Right. Satan's a no-show, what's the problem?
> This simply shows that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict > you: > > http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts Oh NO Brer Chung, PLEASE don't convict me! Please!
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 04 Oct 2007 22:04 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > What possible threat to a noncorporeal being is fire? This would be the all-consuming fires from heaven that will annihilate satan and his demons.
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 05 Oct 2007 00:39 GMT On Oct 4, 5:04 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > This would be the all-consuming fires from heaven that will annihilate > satan and his demons. I see no "fires" in the sky. I see stars, but they're spread out to almost inconceivably vast distances apart. The temperature of interstellar space is within 3 degrees K of absolute zero. If there really were demons (there aren't), they'd be in more danger of freezing their nuts off.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 05 Oct 2007 01:57 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > I see no "fires" in the sky. "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 17:28-30)
Amen.
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 06 Oct 2007 02:05 GMT On Oct 4, 8:57 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed." -- LORD > Jesus Christ (Luke 17:28-30) You actually worship a monster like that?
Zen Cohen - 06 Oct 2007 03:36 GMT > On Oct 4, 8:57 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" > <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote: ...
>> "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, >> buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You actually worship a monster like that? One can only worship that kind of a god out of fear. That's why andy is such a coward.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 06 Oct 2007 03:51 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed." -- LORD > > Jesus Christ (Luke 17:28-30) Amen.
Such were the evil folks in Sodom which reminds us of the sockpuppets (corporeal demons) we are witnessing here on usenet.
> You actually worship a monster like that? No. The folks in Sodom were not monsters but simply evildoers. And, as evildoers they were spawn of satan not worthy of worship but annihilation by fire and sulfur from heaven.
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 06 Oct 2007 05:44 GMT On Oct 5, 10:51 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> Such were the evil folks in Sodom which reminds us of the sockpuppets > (corporeal demons) we are witnessing here on usenet. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > as evildoers they were spawn of satan not worthy of worship but > annihilation by fire and sulfur from heaven. I can't say *what* the people in Sodom were like, but they weren't monsters, at least in the caliber of the sick motherf..ker you worship. I'll bet that in reality, once you remove the lies and libel in that twisted little black book of yours, the place wasn't that much different from Cleveland.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 06 Oct 2007 05:51 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I can't say *what* the people in Sodom were like Simply look in the mirror.
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 06 Oct 2007 05:54 GMT On Oct 6, 12:51 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Simply look in the mirror. Satan owns me. I don't cast reflections in mirrors.
Makes it a bitch to shave.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 06 Oct 2007 11:32 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Satan owns me. Indeed.
> I don't cast reflections in mirrors. Nor do the people of Sodom anymore.
> Makes it a bitch to shave. One can imagine.
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 07 Oct 2007 02:30 GMT On Oct 6, 6:32 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartd...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Nor do the people of Sodom anymore. I'll bet Eichmann made similar jokes about the folks in Poland.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 07 Oct 2007 02:37 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I'll bet Eichmann made similar jokes about the > folks in Poland. Joking is not my style.
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 07 Oct 2007 04:19 GMT On Oct 6, 9:37 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Joking is not my style. Might not hurt you to try for once.
Might not hurt either to get an EEG to check for a seizure disorder from that cop playing the drum solo from In A Gada Da Vida on your skull.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 07 Oct 2007 10:25 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Might not hurt you to try for once. Not the way GOD made me.
> Might not hurt either to get an EEG to check for > a seizure disorder from that cop playing the > drum solo from In A Gada Da Vida on your > skull. Thankfully, there were too many on-lookers and too much daylight for the officers to do that.
Redirecting all thanks and praises to GOD for HIS preventing head injuries and bringing me back from death after healing my mortal internal injuries.
Laus Deo ! ! !
Your lies have been noted and forgiven by me.
This simply shows that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict you:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts
Those who wish to know the truth have simply to read Be Hungry:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/BeHungry
(The preview is free)
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 07 Oct 2007 17:15 GMT On Oct 7, 5:25 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > injuries and bringing me back from death after healing my mortal > internal injuries. The onlookers were probably holding you down. There were probably Japanese tourists filming it.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 08 Oct 2007 10:34 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > The onlookers were probably holding you down. Not according to their testimonies given under oath:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/BeHungry
> There were probably Japanese tourists filming it. Without the LORD, your fantasies are meaningless (Ecclesiastes).
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 08 Oct 2007 19:25 GMT On Oct 8, 5:34 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <and...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Not according to their testimonies given under oath: What, they're going to admit it in a court of law?
> http://HeartMDPhD.com/BeHungry > > > There were probably Japanese tourists filming it. > > Without the LORD, your fantasies are meaningless (Ecclesiastes). Japan's funniest home videos.
Failure to deny noted.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 08 Oct 2007 19:36 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > What, they're going to admit it in a court of law? Does not surprise me that an oath means nothing to you. This does explain why you have to forage in dumpsters for food. Would suggest you become more truthful so that there will be those who will hire you for gainful employment.
This simply shows that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict you:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 08 Oct 2007 19:54 GMT On Oct 8, 2:36 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > Does not surprise me that an oath means nothing to you. This does > explain why you have to forage in dumpsters for food. You're sore about having to get up at 4 AM to beat the winos to the good pickings, i.e. fillet of something dead and aromatic, aren't you?
> Would suggest > you become more truthful so that there will be those who will hire you > for gainful employment. I'm a plumber. I charge doctors $60 to replace a flapper valve. They pay. 15 minutes labor -- 4 x 60 = $240/hour. Sounds pretty "gainful" to me.
> This simply shows that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict > you: > > http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts Jeez, that's what, the sixth time this month?
Global Warming - 08 Oct 2007 20:15 GMT > Does not surprise me that an oath means nothing to you. This does > explain why you have to forage in dumpsters for food. Would suggest > you become more truthful so that there will be those who will hire you > for gainful employment Is that you Andrew?
MarilynMann - 09 Oct 2007 02:27 GMT Small scanners find hidden heart disease Updated Sun. Oct. 7 2007 2:36 PM ET
The Associated Press
MADISON, Wis -- What if your doctor could swipe a wand over your neck and reveal whether you have hidden heart disease?
That is now possible in places other than the sickbay of the starship Enterprise.
Miniature ultrasound machines are starting to make their way into ordinary doctors' offices, where they may someday be as common as stethoscopes and EKGs. A pocket-sized one weighing less than 2 pounds hit the market last week.
Some of these devices can make images of neck arteries, which offer a "window" to heart arteries that cannot easily be seen. If the neck vessels are clogged, doctors know that those around the heart probably are, too, and that treatment or more testing is needed.
The new ultrasound machines offer a relatively cheap, painless way to screen people with no symptoms of heart problems for signs of hidden trouble.
Is that a good thing?
Many doctors say yes, because for one-third of heart disease sufferers, the first symptom is dropping dead of a heart attack. Finding these people early and treating them could save lives. The test may be especially good for women, who often have few traditional signs.
Lisa Rosenstock of Madison, Wis., is an example. At age 41, this trim, athletic mom had normal cholesterol and blood pressure but a troubling family history of heart attacks. Ultrasound revealed a big clog in the main artery from her heart to her head.
Her cardiologist, Dr. James Stein of the University of Wisconsin- Madison, put her on medicines to lower her risk of a heart attack or stroke. He also is leading a study aimed at making ultrasound testing more common.
"There's a great need for a noninvasive and safe way to identify people who don't have signs but have risk" of heart disease, he said.
But there are potential downsides to more people doing this testing without extensive training. Suddenly, small-town family doctors could see scary-looking artery buildups and rush to treat some that might never be life-threatening.
And while patients who see the pictures may be motivated to quit smoking, lose weight or go on cholesterol drugs, some might suffer side effects from unnecessary treatment.
Ultrasounds also are being advertised directly to consumers -- the latest "peace of mind" test like whole-body CT scans and MRIs. Some drugmakers are promoting wider testing because it could boost cholesterol pill sales.
The American Heart Association says testing with traditional ultrasound machines can help certain patients, but does not endorse widespread screening with the small devices because proof of benefit is lacking.
Guidelines from several groups suggesting who should use the small ultrasound devices, and on which patients, are expected next spring, said Stein, who heads a panel writing the advice.
On balance, many doctors see more promise than peril.
"It's equivalent to a mammogram of the heart," said Dr. Christopher Rembold, a cardiologist at the University of Virginia. If doctors see something suspicious, they can refer patients to specialists for more extensive tests before deciding whether or how to treat it, he said.
Screening involves checking for buildups called plaque and measuring the thickness of the wall of the main neck artery. Normal thickness varies by age, race and sex, and charts give doctors detailed guidance. Too-thick arteries are a sign of higher risk for heart attack.
Until recently, only ultrasound specialists did these tests, which were analyzed by a radiologist. That often meant patients needed another appointment at a hospital or ultrasound center, and a return trip to their primary doctor for results.
The portable ultrasound devices are changing that. SonoSite Inc. of Bothell, Wash., came out with one in 1999. It was followed by GE Healthcare, a suburban Milwaukee unit of General Electric. They mostly are used in emergency rooms to check for problems with the heart's valves or pumping capacity, or bulging abdominal arteries threatening to rupture.
But scanning neck arteries became more common after SonoSite's MicroMaxx came out in 2005. The 8-pound device is a small laptop and costs US$25,000, or about $40,000 with related software.
The pocket-sized device that went on sale last week -- the $10,000 Acuson P10 -- might eventually expand artery scanning even more. Siemens Medical Solutions, the Malvern, Pa.-based unit of the German company Siemens AG, initially will sell the device for traditional heart imaging and emergency use, but plans to offer artery imaging in the near future. The quality of the images will have to be proved for the device to gain wide acceptance, several experts said.
At UW-Madison, doctors have done neck scans with portable ultrasounds on about 900 patients. They charge $295, and three local HMOs agreed to pay. Most insurers do not, because of limited proof of the value of such tests.
Others are selling neck scanning directly to consumers.
Dr. Robert Bonow, cardiology chief at Northwestern University and a past heart association president, recently got an ad in the mail for screening at a shopping center near his Glencoe, Ill., home. He worries about the accuracy of such testing.
Suppose the scanning is 90 percent accurate, and the normal rate of heart disease is 10 percent, he said. That would mean 20 out of 200 people would have heart disease and 180 would not. But the scan would tell 18 people they had it when they didn't, and would miss heart disease in 18 who did.
Because of the false alarms, "you may be treating twice as many people as you have to," he said. "If you're dealing with 2 million people, that's a lot of people who don't need treatment."
Robert Rosner, an ultrasound technician in Fort Myers, Fla., sells screening to police, fire and other municipal workers and through doctor offices and health clubs. He charges $180 and offers a personal testimonial. At age 42, he scanned his own arteries and was surprised to see a 30 percent narrowing in one. A doctor put him on medications, and a couple of years later, the plaque was gone.
"Without needles or radiation or pain ... there's disease in the body that can be reversed," he said. "I'm living proof."
UW's Stein is leading a study to see whether family practice doctors can be trained in a weekend to accurately do the tests. SonoSite donated equipment, and a university-administered grant is paying for the study, which will test 350 patients.
"The danger of overtreating is low, especially in an environment where we dangerously undertreat risk factors," Stein said. Screening itself can be good, he pointed out. A previous study found that even those whose arteries were found to be normal were motivated to exercise more.
It should do even more good for people who do have heart disease, said Dr. Sanford Carimi, a Janesville, Wis., physician participating in Stein's study.
"If I tell you your cholesterol is 130, that won't bother you," he said. "If I show you you have a plaque in the blood vessel leading to your brain, you're more likely to make some changes."
* * * Whoa! I didn't know this was going on.
Marilyn
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 09 Oct 2007 07:08 GMT > Small scanners find hidden heart disease > Updated Sun. Oct. 7 2007 2:36 PM ET [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > MADISON, Wis -- What if your doctor could swipe a wand over your neck > and reveal whether you have hidden heart disease? <snip>
> Lisa Rosenstock of Madison, Wis., is an example. At age 41, this trim, > athletic mom had normal cholesterol and blood pressure but a troubling [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "There's a great need for a noninvasive and safe way to identify > people who don't have signs but have risk" of heart disease, he said. <snip>
> At UW-Madison, doctors have done neck scans with portable ultrasounds > on about 900 patients. They charge $295, and three local HMOs agreed [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > Marilyn The lowest price given in this article is US$180.00
Multiply this by the more that 225 million asymptomatic Americans with at least one risk factor for CV disease (family history, hypertension, cigarette smoking, dyslipidemia, and/or obesity) and we are writing about possibly spending more than US$40,500,000,000.00 to screen for abnormal CIMT (carotid intima-media thicknesses). This would be more than 20 times the total amount spent in 2005 for healthcare in the U.S.
Source:
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
It remains much wiser and much more economical to teach folks to eat less, down to the optimal amount to lose the VAT and cure the insulin resistance (IR/MetS) that causes most if not all cases of cardiovascular disease in the U.S.
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
MarilynMann - 09 Oct 2007 17:29 GMT Measurement of coronary calcium scores or exercise testing as initial screening tool in asymptomatic subjects with ST-T changes on the resting ECG: an evaluation study
Christiane A Geluk1 , Riksta Dikkers2 , Jan A Kors3 , Ren? A Tio1 , Riemer HJA Slart4 , Rozemarijn Vliegenthart2 , Hans L Hillege1 , Tineke P Willems2 , Paul E de Jong5 , Wiek H van Gilst1,6 , Matthijs Oudkerk2 and Felix Zijlstra1
1Department of Cardiology, Thoraxcenter, University Medical Center Groningen, University of Groningen, The Netherlands 2Department of Radiology, University Medical Center Groningen, University of Groningen, The Netherlands 3Department of Medical Informatics, Erasmus MC-University Medical Center Rotterdam, Rotterdam, The Netherlands 4Department of Nuclear Medicine and Molecular Imaging, University Medical Center Groningen, University of Groningen, The Netherlands 5Departement of Internal Medicine, Division of Nephrology, University Medical Center Groningen, University of Groningen, The Netherlands 6Department of Clinical Pharmacology, University Medical Center Groningen, University of Groningen, The Netherlands
BMC Cardiovascular Disorders 2007, 7:19doi:10.1186/1471-2261-7-19
Published: 13 July 2007
Abstract Background Asymptomatic subjects at intermediate coronary risk may need diagnostic testing for risk stratification. Both measurement of coronary calcium scores and exercise testing are well established tests for this purpose. However, it is not clear which test should be preferred as initial diagnostic test. We evaluated the prevalence of documented coronary artery disease (CAD) according to calcium scores and exercise test results.
Methods Asymptomatic subjects with ST-T changes on a rest ECG were selected from the population based PREVEND cohort study and underwent measurement of calcium scores by electron beam tomography and exercise testing. With calcium scores 10 or a positive exercise test, myocardial perfusion imaging (MPS) or coronary angiography (CAG) was recommended. The primary endpoint was documented obstructive CAD ( 50% stenosis).
Results Of 153 subjects included, 149 subjects completed the study protocol. Calcium scores 400, 100-399, 10-99 and <10 were found in 16, 29, 18 and 86 subjects and the primary endpoint was present in 11 (69%), 12 (41%), 0 (0%) and 1 (1%) subjects, respectively. A positive, nondiagnostic and negative exercise test was present in 33, 27 and 89 subjects and the primary endpoint was present in 13 (39%), 5 (19%) and 6 (7%) subjects, respectively. Receiver operator characteristics analysis showed that the area under the curve, as measure of diagnostic yield, of 0.91 (95% CI 0.84-0.97) for calcium scores was superior to 0.74 (95% CI 0.64-0.83) for exercise testing (p = 0.004).
Conclusion Measurement of coronary calcium scores is an appropriate initial non- invasive test in asymptomatic subjects at increased coronary risk.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2261/7/19/abstract
* * * I'm adding this to the discussion, for whatever it's worth. It's an open access journal, so anyone can read the study if they're interested. I just had a CAC scan and my score was 0.
I'm now on tamoxifen to lower my risk of having a recurrence of breast cancer. It increases the risk of strokes and blood clots (they made me sign a form stating that I understood the risks). Supposedly it lowers LDL somewhat but can also raise TG. I've seen it described as "cardioprotective" in oncology journals, but I don't know what the evidence is for that.
Marilyn
Jim Chinnis - 09 Oct 2007 18:00 GMT MarilynMann <mannm@comcast.net> wrote in part:
>I just had a CAC scan and my score was 0. Can't do much better than that! -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 09 Oct 2007 21:31 GMT > friend MarilynMann <mannm@comcast.net> wrote in part: > > >I just had a CAC scan and my score was 0. > > Can't do much better than that! You can by having a WHR less than 0.75 (for women... 0.85 for men).
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Cary Kittrell - 09 Oct 2007 19:03 GMT > > Small scanners find hidden heart disease > > Updated Sun. Oct. 7 2007 2:36 PM ET [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > about possibly spending more than US$40,500,000,000.00 to screen for > abnormal CIMT (carotid intima-media thicknesses). Assuming one unit used one time only on just one patient.
Did you uncrate a fresh treadmill for every stress test, back in the day?
-- cary
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 09 Oct 2007 20:19 GMT > > > Small scanners find hidden heart disease > > > Updated Sun. Oct. 7 2007 2:36 PM ET [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > > Assuming one unit used one time only on just one patient. No.
The US$180.00 is not for the testing equipment but for the fee charged by the technician to perform the testing.
Your getting this wrong simply indicates you are being led around by the spirit of error (self) so that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict you:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Cary Kittrell - 09 Oct 2007 20:47 GMT > > > > Small scanners find hidden heart disease > > > > Updated Sun. Oct. 7 2007 2:36 PM ET [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > The US$180.00 is not for the testing equipment but for the fee charged > by the technician to perform the testing. You are correct.
-- cary
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 09 Oct 2007 21:34 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] > > You are correct. Would redirect all the glory and praise to GOD so that we will both be that much more blessed (hungrier).
HE is truly the Source of all righteousness.
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 09 Oct 2007 20:21 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > Small scanners find hidden heart disease [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > > Assuming one unit used one time only on just one patient. No.
The US$180.00 is not for the testing equipment but for the fee charged by the technician to perform the testing.
Your getting this wrong simply indicates you are being led around by the spirit of error (self) so that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict you:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Cary Kittrell - 05 Oct 2007 20:12 GMT > On Oct 4, 5:04 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" > <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > If there really were demons (there aren't), they'd be in more > danger of freezing their nuts off. You simply lack discernment, thus rendering you unable to perceive the global combustion of the atmosphere which was triggered by Trident missle warheads raining down on Tehran like falling stars.
(or are you too new to the Andy zoo to know what I'm babbling about?)
-- cary
Ferd Farkel - 06 Oct 2007 02:11 GMT > In article <1191541182.831976.323...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> Ferd Farkel <frdf...@yahoo.com> writes: > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > Trident missle warheads raining down on Tehran like falling > stars. If the atmosphere could be ignited, you could do so with a Bic lighter. But since fuel is lacking (the second point of the triangle), it can't happen for all the praying in China.
> (or are you too new to the Andy zoo to know what I'm babbling about?) You mean how he makes predictions of horrific doom, and you can tell he's wringing his hands with glee just before hitting [Enter]? I'm quite familiar with his mental health records.
Archie Leach - 06 Oct 2007 02:39 GMT >> In article <1191541182.831976.323...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> Ferd Farkel <frdf...@yahoo.com> writes: >> [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] >hitting [Enter]? I'm quite familiar with his mental health >records. I'm pretty sure Chung gets a massive hard-on every time he replaces a name in the attributions line with "satan (via a sockpuppet) angrily hissed:".
Cary Kittrell - 06 Oct 2007 03:46 GMT Archie Leach <archie@antispam.ham>
> >> In article <1191541182.831976.323...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> Ferd Farkel <frdf...@yahoo.com> writes: > >> [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > name in the attributions line with "satan (via a sockpuppet) angrily > hissed:". And if the "Convicts" list gets any longer, we're going to have to think about putting in a couple of stoplights, maybe some sidewalks, and setting up a tavern. And a church -- quite a few on that list are Christians (and some quite admirable)
-- cary
Ferd Farkel - 06 Oct 2007 05:46 GMT > Archie Leach <arc...@antispam.ham> > [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > and setting up a tavern. And a church -- quite a few on that list are > Christians (and some quite admirable) Any longer, it'll probably need a zipcode and apply for statehood.
percy - 06 Oct 2007 22:56 GMT >>> In article <1191541182.831976.323...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> Ferd Farkel <frdf...@yahoo.com> writes: >>> [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > name in the attributions line with "satan (via a sockpuppet) angrily > hissed:". "Massive"? chung?
Unlikely.
Jim Chinnis - 04 Oct 2007 16:01 GMT "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdoc12@emorycardiology.com> wrote in part:
>If we started doing calcium scores and carotid intimal thicknesses on >everyone who we believed to be at risk, we would soon learn that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >would be no money left for either medical, interventional, or surgical >treatment. Agree. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
bigvince - 05 Oct 2007 13:58 GMT On Oct 4, 6:15 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> If we started doing calcium scores and carotid intimal thicknesses on > everyone who we believed to be at risk, we would soon learn that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > would be no money left for either medical, interventional, or surgical > treatment. Not when you consider that many would not show disease and that the expense of needless drugs such as the latest statin may not be prescibed. The amount saved on needless and sometimes dangerous medications may well result in less cost.The diagnostic cost goes up but the needless and long term cost of medications goes down. Bad for drug maker profits but good for patients .
Thanks Vince
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 05 Oct 2007 14:09 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Not when you consider that many would not show disease Actually, all would either have abnormal calcium scores, abnormal carotid intimal thicknesses, or both.
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Jim Chinnis - 05 Oct 2007 16:23 GMT "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdoc20@emorycardiology.com> wrote in part:
>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Actually, all would either have abnormal calcium scores, abnormal >carotid intimal thicknesses, or both. Agree. And the tendencies to prescribe drugs and to take supplements is due to the increasing prevalence of excess weight in the population. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 05 Oct 2007 19:23 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Agree. And the tendencies to prescribe drugs and to take supplements is due > to the increasing prevalence of excess weight in the population. What saddens me is the fact that when we are given the right medications and supplements, it makes us healthier (hungrier)...
... then the lie in our hearts about hunger, compells us to overeat even more thereby cancelling out the benefits of the medications and supplements.
This is why satan's lie about hunger is murdering us.
It is written that satan is the source of all lies, that lying is his native language, that he has been a liar and murderer from the very beginning.
Now we know firsthand that this is true.
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Jim Chinnis - 05 Oct 2007 16:20 GMT bigvince <Vince.Miraglia@gmail.com> wrote in part:
>On Oct 4, 6:15 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" ><heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Thanks Vince Statins and ACE-inhibitors are both available at $4/month in the US. Not exactly national health-care budget-busters. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
bigvince - 05 Oct 2007 17:37 GMT > bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part:
> Statins and ACE-inhibitors are both available at $4/month in the US. Not > exactly national health-care budget-busters. > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA Your numbers are in accurate from
Going to church may help you live longer Added years similar to gains from exercise Tuesday, April 04, 2006 By Joe Fahy, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
People who attend church regularly often focus on a life to come.
But they also may live longer on Earth, according to a new study.
The study by a University of Pittsburgh researcher found that people who attend weekly religious services have a longer life expectancy. Added years of life were similar to those associated with regular exercise or taking statin-type drugs that lower cholesterol."
Later the story notes ......."The average yearly cost of statin therapy-- $836 -- was derived from a published review of usage patterns of six drugs in more than 1,000 managed care plans. The cost of regular exercise was estimated at $500, based on the annual cost of membership at a local gym."
Not the 48 dollars you suggested but the real amount.......
.....The study found that regular exercise had the biggest effect on longevity, accounting for about three to five additional years of life. It also was the least expensive, costing $2,000 to $6,000 per year of life gained.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06094/679237-51.stm
Jim Chinnis - 05 Oct 2007 18:54 GMT bigvince <Vince.Miraglia@gmail.com> wrote in part:
>> bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06094/679237-51.stm Maybe Joe Fahey knows what he's talking about, but the fact is that most Americans can get simvastatin and lisonipril from Walmart for $4 each for 30 days supply.
People who would take statins are not necessary going to work out at the gym to save money. The comparison Fahey makes is idiotic. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
William Wagner - 05 Oct 2007 20:02 GMT > bigvince <Vince.Miraglia@gmail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA I do not know about being idiotic put the premise of a cheaper fix says warning Will Roberson.
Bill who believes health must be earned and maintained with minor transgressions forgiven. As to what is minor or major I leave it to the gods.
Bill
Walked down my street Saw a neighbor waved No words
Isolation
Why?
Wonder what is on?
 Signature S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.
http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid
bigvince - 06 Oct 2007 14:29 GMT > bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part:
> >http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06094/679237-51.stm > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA- Hide quoted text - The facts are accurate last year Lipitor alone sold 17 billion.The average cost is close to 1000 a year not the 40 a year you suggest. To guote the artcle "The study found that regular exercise had the biggest effect on longevity, accounting for about three to five additional years of life. It also was the least expensive, costing $2,000 to $6,000 per year of life gained.
The key fact is that exercise had the greatest health benefit and without the side effects of statins . A reveiw of todays Walmart drug list does not even list simvastin. Yoyr facts seem confused
Jim Chinnis - 06 Oct 2007 19:37 GMT bigvince <Vince.Miraglia@gmail.com> wrote in part:
>> bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >without the side effects of statins . A reveiw of todays Walmart drug >list does not even list simvastin. Yoyr facts seem confused Are you unaware of the negative side effects of exercise? My gym has several prominent advertisements on the walls for physical therapists. I've had a torn rotator cuff that cost me thousands, including an MRI and physical therapy. And the fact is--for planning purposes--a powerful generic statin is now available at $4 per month. Costs are always high during the patent period for a new drug. That period is pretty much over now for both statins and ACE inhibitors. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 07 Oct 2007 00:22 GMT > bigvince <Vince.Miraglia@gmail.com> wrote in part: > >> bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > torn rotator cuff that cost me thousands, including an MRI and physical > therapy. Indeed, the only exercise that has been shown in RCTs to not increase risk of injury is Taiji, which is what we locally encourage people to become involved with:
http://TheWellnessFoundation.com/Taiji
> And the fact is--for planning purposes--a powerful generic statin > is now available at $4 per month. Yes, locally simvastatin is available at Walmart for $4 per month
(disclosure: none to report)
> Costs are always high during the patent > period for a new drug. That period is pretty much over now for both statins > and ACE inhibitors. Except for the tissue-specific ACE inhibitors.
Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease
Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Jim Chinnis - 05 Oct 2007 21:44 GMT bigvince <Vince.Miraglia@gmail.com> wrote in part:
>> bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06094/679237-51.stm That was then; this is now. There are now effective statins and ACE inhibitors avaailable at very low prices. Since we are discussing future testing policies, we should use estimates of future costs and not those of the past. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
bigvince - 06 Oct 2007 14:45 GMT > bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA- Hide quoted text - That was the latest cost of statins ; the ones actually prescibed 1000 a year not the 40 dollars you suggest. The cost of testing to see if you actually need a statin would also come down greatly as it became routine; to actually look at the condition and see if drugs are even needed . Most people would prefer to not use a drug that has no benefit for them.Those given a clean bill of health by a simple test avoid the common and sometimes devastating side effects of statins.It is also in line with the" first do no harm " view of medicine.
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