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Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / October 2007

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controversy over SHAPE guidelines

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MarilynMann - 04 Oct 2007 02:39 GMT
http://www.ccjm.org/PDFFILES/Lauer9_07.pdf

http://www.ccjm.org/PDFFILES/Naghavi10_07.pdf

Cleveland Clinic Journal of Medicine

http://shapesociety.blogspot.com/
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 04 Oct 2007 11:15 GMT
> http://www.ccjm.org/PDFFILES/Lauer9_07.pdf
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> http://shapesociety.blogspot.com/

If we started doing calcium scores and carotid intimal thicknesses on
everyone who we believed to be at risk, we would soon learn that
everyone with VAT is abnormal and has vascular disease.

This finding, however, would be meaningless because after screening
the more than 75% of Americans who are overweight and/or obese, there
would be no money left for either medical, interventional, or surgical
treatment.

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
MarilynMann - 04 Oct 2007 14:10 GMT
On Oct 4, 6:15 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> >http://www.ccjm.org/PDFFILES/Lauer9_07.pdf
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> would be no money left for either medical, interventional, or surgical
> treatment.

You have a good point.

Marilyn
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 04 Oct 2007 18:12 GMT
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Marilyn

Appreciate your favorable comment :-)

Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for moving you to
write favorably thereby mortally wounding satan, who remains the
source of all the lies that are destroying America's health care
system:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8f54f47c625b35b2?

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 04 Oct 2007 20:16 GMT
On Oct 4, 1:12 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> source of all the lies that are destroying America's health care
> system

Satan is dead?

Then so is "sin."

Do what thou wilt!
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 04 Oct 2007 21:38 GMT
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Satan is dead?

No.

There remains the lake of fire that awaits him.

> Then so is "sin."

Sin will cease to exist when all those who oppose GOD's will cease to
exist.

> Do what thou wilt!

Wiser to do GOD's will or end up being among those who will be
destroyed along with satan.

This simply shows that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict
you:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 04 Oct 2007 21:46 GMT
On Oct 4, 4:38 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:

> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> There remains the lake of fire that awaits him.

What possible threat to a noncorporeal being is fire?

> > Then so is "sin."
>
> Sin will cease to exist when all those who oppose GOD's will cease to
> exist.

Sin will cease to exist when you realize how ridiculous the concept
is.

> > Do what thou wilt!
>
> Wiser to do GOD's will or end up being among those who will be
> destroyed along with satan.

Right.  Satan's a no-show, what's the problem?

> This simply shows that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict
> you:
>
> http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts

Oh NO Brer Chung, PLEASE don't convict me!  Please!
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 04 Oct 2007 22:04 GMT
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> What possible threat to a noncorporeal being is fire?

This would be the all-consuming fires from heaven that will annihilate
satan and his demons.

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 05 Oct 2007 00:39 GMT
On Oct 4, 5:04 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:

> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> This would be the all-consuming fires from heaven that will annihilate
> satan and his demons.

I see no "fires" in the sky.  I see stars, but they're spread out
to almost inconceivably vast distances apart.  The temperature
of interstellar space is within 3 degrees K of absolute zero.
If there really were demons (there aren't), they'd be in more
danger of freezing their nuts off.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 05 Oct 2007 01:57 GMT
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> I see no "fires" in the sky.

"It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking,
buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom,
fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It
will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed." -- LORD
Jesus Christ (Luke 17:28-30)

Amen.

Marana tha

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 06 Oct 2007 02:05 GMT
On Oct 4, 8:57 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:

> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed." -- LORD
> Jesus Christ (Luke 17:28-30)

You actually worship a monster like that?
Zen Cohen - 06 Oct 2007 03:36 GMT
> On Oct 4, 8:57 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
> <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:

...

>> "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking,
>> buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> You actually worship a monster like that?

One can only worship that kind of a god out of fear. That's why andy is such
a coward.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 06 Oct 2007 03:51 GMT
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> > will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed." -- LORD
> > Jesus Christ (Luke 17:28-30)

Amen.

Such were the evil folks in Sodom which reminds us of the sockpuppets
(corporeal demons) we are witnessing here on usenet.

> You actually worship a monster like that?

No.  The folks in Sodom were not monsters but simply evildoers.  And,
as evildoers they were spawn of satan not worthy of worship but
annihilation by fire and sulfur from heaven.

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 06 Oct 2007 05:44 GMT
On Oct 5, 10:51 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:

> Such were the evil folks in Sodom which reminds us of the sockpuppets
> (corporeal demons) we are witnessing here on usenet.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> as evildoers they were spawn of satan not worthy of worship but
> annihilation by fire and sulfur from heaven.

I can't say *what* the people in Sodom were like, but
they weren't monsters, at least in the caliber of the sick
motherf..ker you worship.  I'll bet that in reality, once you
remove the lies and libel in that twisted little black book
of yours, the place wasn't that much different from
Cleveland.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 06 Oct 2007 05:51 GMT
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> I can't say *what* the people in Sodom were like

Simply look in the mirror.

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 06 Oct 2007 05:54 GMT
On Oct 6, 12:51 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:

> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Simply look in the mirror.

Satan owns me.  I don't cast reflections in mirrors.

Makes it a bitch to shave.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 06 Oct 2007 11:32 GMT
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Satan owns me.

Indeed.

> I don't cast reflections in mirrors.

Nor do the people of Sodom anymore.

> Makes it a bitch to shave.

One can imagine.

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 07 Oct 2007 02:30 GMT
On Oct 6, 6:32 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<heartd...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:

> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Nor do the people of Sodom anymore.

I'll bet Eichmann made similar jokes about the
folks in Poland.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 07 Oct 2007 02:37 GMT
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> I'll bet Eichmann made similar jokes about the
> folks in Poland.

Joking is not my style.

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 07 Oct 2007 04:19 GMT
On Oct 6, 9:37 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:

> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Joking is not my style.

Might not hurt you to try for once.

Might not hurt either to get an EEG to check for
a seizure disorder from that cop playing the
drum solo from In A Gada Da Vida on your
skull.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 07 Oct 2007 10:25 GMT
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Might not hurt you to try for once.

Not the way GOD made me.

> Might not hurt either to get an EEG to check for
> a seizure disorder from that cop playing the
> drum solo from In A Gada Da Vida on your
> skull.

Thankfully, there were too many on-lookers and too much daylight for
the officers to do that.

Redirecting all thanks and praises to GOD for HIS preventing head
injuries and bringing me back from death after healing my mortal
internal injuries.

Laus Deo ! ! !

Your lies have been noted and forgiven by me.

This simply shows that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict
you:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts

Those who wish to know the truth have simply to read Be Hungry:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/BeHungry

(The preview is free)

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 07 Oct 2007 17:15 GMT
On Oct 7, 5:25 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<and...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:

> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> injuries and bringing me back from death after healing my mortal
> internal injuries.

The onlookers were probably holding you down.  There
were probably Japanese tourists filming it.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 08 Oct 2007 10:34 GMT
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> The onlookers were probably holding you down.

Not according to their testimonies given under oath:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/BeHungry

> There were probably Japanese tourists filming it.

Without the LORD, your fantasies are meaningless (Ecclesiastes).

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 08 Oct 2007 19:25 GMT
On Oct 8, 5:34 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<and...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:

> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> Not according to their testimonies given under oath:

What, they're going to admit it in a court of law?

> http://HeartMDPhD.com/BeHungry
>
> > There were probably Japanese tourists filming it.
>
> Without the LORD, your fantasies are meaningless (Ecclesiastes).

Japan's funniest home videos.

Failure to deny noted.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 08 Oct 2007 19:36 GMT
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
> What, they're going to admit it in a court of law?

Does not surprise me that an oath means nothing to you.  This does
explain why you have to forage in dumpsters for food. Would suggest
you become more truthful so that there will be those who will hire you
for gainful employment.

This simply shows that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict
you:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Ferd Farkel - 08 Oct 2007 19:54 GMT
On Oct 8, 2:36 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:

> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> Does not surprise me that an oath means nothing to you.  This does
> explain why you have to forage in dumpsters for food.

You're sore about having to get up at 4 AM to beat
the winos to the good pickings, i.e. fillet of something
dead and aromatic, aren't you?

> Would suggest
> you become more truthful so that there will be those who will hire you
> for gainful employment.

I'm a plumber.  I charge doctors $60 to replace a flapper valve.
They pay.  15 minutes labor -- 4 x 60 = $240/hour.  Sounds
pretty "gainful" to me.

> This simply shows that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict
> you:
>
> http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts

Jeez, that's what, the sixth time this month?
Global Warming - 08 Oct 2007 20:15 GMT
> Does not surprise me that an oath means nothing to you.  This does
> explain why you have to forage in dumpsters for food. Would suggest
> you become more truthful so that there will be those who will hire you
> for gainful employment

Is that you Andrew?
MarilynMann - 09 Oct 2007 02:27 GMT
Small scanners find hidden heart disease
Updated Sun. Oct. 7 2007 2:36 PM ET

The Associated Press

MADISON, Wis -- What if your doctor could swipe a wand over your neck
and reveal whether you have hidden heart disease?

That is now possible in places other than the sickbay of the starship
Enterprise.

Miniature ultrasound machines are starting to make their way into
ordinary doctors' offices, where they may someday be as common as
stethoscopes and EKGs. A pocket-sized one weighing less than 2 pounds
hit the market last week.

Some of these devices can make images of neck arteries, which offer a
"window" to heart arteries that cannot easily be seen. If the neck
vessels are clogged, doctors know that those around the heart probably
are, too, and that treatment or more testing is needed.

The new ultrasound machines offer a relatively cheap, painless way to
screen people with no symptoms of heart problems for signs of hidden
trouble.

Is that a good thing?

Many doctors say yes, because for one-third of heart disease
sufferers, the first symptom is dropping dead of a heart attack.
Finding these people early and treating them could save lives. The
test may be especially good for women, who often have few traditional
signs.

Lisa Rosenstock of Madison, Wis., is an example. At age 41, this trim,
athletic mom had normal cholesterol and blood pressure but a troubling
family history of heart attacks. Ultrasound revealed a big clog in the
main artery from her heart to her head.

Her cardiologist, Dr. James Stein of the University of Wisconsin-
Madison, put her on medicines to lower her risk of a heart attack or
stroke. He also is leading a study aimed at making ultrasound testing
more common.

"There's a great need for a noninvasive and safe way to identify
people who don't have signs but have risk" of heart disease, he said.

But there are potential downsides to more people doing this testing
without extensive training. Suddenly, small-town family doctors could
see scary-looking artery buildups and rush to treat some that might
never be life-threatening.

And while patients who see the pictures may be motivated to quit
smoking, lose weight or go on cholesterol drugs, some might suffer
side effects from unnecessary treatment.

Ultrasounds also are being advertised directly to consumers -- the
latest "peace of mind" test like whole-body CT scans and MRIs. Some
drugmakers are promoting wider testing because it could boost
cholesterol pill sales.

The American Heart Association says testing with traditional
ultrasound machines can help certain patients, but does not endorse
widespread screening with the small devices because proof of benefit
is lacking.

Guidelines from several groups suggesting who should use the small
ultrasound devices, and on which patients, are expected next spring,
said Stein, who heads a panel writing the advice.

On balance, many doctors see more promise than peril.

"It's equivalent to a mammogram of the heart," said Dr. Christopher
Rembold, a cardiologist at the University of Virginia. If doctors see
something suspicious, they can refer patients to specialists for more
extensive tests before deciding whether or how to treat it, he said.

Screening involves checking for buildups called plaque and measuring
the thickness of the wall of the main neck artery. Normal thickness
varies by age, race and sex, and charts give doctors detailed
guidance. Too-thick arteries are a sign of higher risk for heart
attack.

Until recently, only ultrasound specialists did these tests, which
were analyzed by a radiologist. That often meant patients needed
another appointment at a hospital or ultrasound center, and a return
trip to their primary doctor for results.

The portable ultrasound devices are changing that. SonoSite Inc. of
Bothell, Wash., came out with one in 1999. It was followed by GE
Healthcare, a suburban Milwaukee unit of General Electric. They mostly
are used in emergency rooms to check for problems with the heart's
valves or pumping capacity, or bulging abdominal arteries threatening
to rupture.

But scanning neck arteries became more common after SonoSite's
MicroMaxx came out in 2005. The 8-pound device is a small laptop and
costs US$25,000, or about $40,000 with related software.

The pocket-sized device that went on sale last week -- the $10,000
Acuson P10 -- might eventually expand artery scanning even more.
Siemens Medical Solutions, the Malvern, Pa.-based unit of the German
company Siemens AG, initially will sell the device for traditional
heart imaging and emergency use, but plans to offer artery imaging in
the near future. The quality of the images will have to be proved for
the device to gain wide acceptance, several experts said.

At UW-Madison, doctors have done neck scans with portable ultrasounds
on about 900 patients. They charge $295, and three local HMOs agreed
to pay. Most insurers do not, because of limited proof of the value of
such tests.

Others are selling neck scanning directly to consumers.

Dr. Robert Bonow, cardiology chief at Northwestern University and a
past heart association president, recently got an ad in the mail for
screening at a shopping center near his Glencoe, Ill., home. He
worries about the accuracy of such testing.

Suppose the scanning is 90 percent accurate, and the normal rate of
heart disease is 10 percent, he said. That would mean 20 out of 200
people would have heart disease and 180 would not. But the scan would
tell 18 people they had it when they didn't, and would miss heart
disease in 18 who did.

Because of the false alarms, "you may be treating twice as many people
as you have to," he said. "If you're dealing with 2 million people,
that's a lot of people who don't need treatment."

Robert Rosner, an ultrasound technician in Fort Myers, Fla., sells
screening to police, fire and other municipal workers and through
doctor offices and health clubs. He charges $180 and offers a personal
testimonial. At age 42, he scanned his own arteries and was surprised
to see a 30 percent narrowing in one. A doctor put him on medications,
and a couple of years later, the plaque was gone.

"Without needles or radiation or pain ... there's disease in the body
that can be reversed," he said. "I'm living proof."

UW's Stein is leading a study to see whether family practice doctors
can be trained in a weekend to accurately do the tests. SonoSite
donated equipment, and a university-administered grant is paying for
the study, which will test 350 patients.

"The danger of overtreating is low, especially in an environment where
we dangerously undertreat risk factors," Stein said. Screening itself
can be good, he pointed out. A previous study found that even those
whose arteries were found to be normal were motivated to exercise
more.

It should do even more good for people who do have heart disease, said
Dr. Sanford Carimi, a Janesville, Wis., physician participating in
Stein's study.

"If I tell you your cholesterol is 130, that won't bother you," he
said. "If I show you you have a plaque in the blood vessel leading to
your brain, you're more likely to make some changes."

*  *  *
Whoa!  I didn't know this was going on.

Marilyn
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 09 Oct 2007 07:08 GMT
> Small scanners find hidden heart disease
> Updated Sun. Oct. 7 2007 2:36 PM ET
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> MADISON, Wis -- What if your doctor could swipe a wand over your neck
> and reveal whether you have hidden heart disease?

<snip>

> Lisa Rosenstock of Madison, Wis., is an example. At age 41, this trim,
> athletic mom had normal cholesterol and blood pressure but a troubling
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> "There's a great need for a noninvasive and safe way to identify
> people who don't have signs but have risk" of heart disease, he said.

<snip>

> At UW-Madison, doctors have done neck scans with portable ultrasounds
> on about 900 patients. They charge $295, and three local HMOs agreed
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> Marilyn

The lowest price given in this article is US$180.00

Multiply this by the more that 225 million asymptomatic Americans with
at least one risk factor for CV disease (family history, hypertension,
cigarette smoking, dyslipidemia, and/or obesity) and we are writing
about possibly spending more than US$40,500,000,000.00 to screen for
abnormal CIMT (carotid intima-media thicknesses). This would be more
than 20 times the total amount spent in 2005 for healthcare in the
U.S.

Source:

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

It remains much wiser and much more economical to teach folks to eat
less, down to the optimal amount to lose the VAT and cure the insulin
resistance (IR/MetS) that causes most if not all cases of
cardiovascular disease in the U.S.

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
MarilynMann - 09 Oct 2007 17:29 GMT
Measurement of coronary calcium scores or exercise testing as initial
screening tool in asymptomatic subjects with ST-T changes on the
resting ECG: an evaluation study

Christiane A Geluk1 , Riksta Dikkers2 , Jan A Kors3 , Ren? A Tio1 ,
Riemer HJA Slart4 , Rozemarijn Vliegenthart2 , Hans L Hillege1 ,
Tineke P Willems2 , Paul E de Jong5 , Wiek H van Gilst1,6 , Matthijs
Oudkerk2  and Felix Zijlstra1

1Department of Cardiology, Thoraxcenter, University Medical Center
Groningen, University of Groningen, The Netherlands
2Department of Radiology, University Medical Center Groningen,
University of Groningen, The Netherlands
3Department of Medical Informatics, Erasmus MC-University Medical
Center Rotterdam, Rotterdam, The Netherlands
4Department of Nuclear Medicine and Molecular Imaging, University
Medical Center Groningen, University of Groningen, The Netherlands
5Departement of Internal Medicine, Division of Nephrology, University
Medical Center Groningen, University of Groningen, The Netherlands
6Department of Clinical Pharmacology, University Medical Center
Groningen, University of Groningen, The Netherlands

BMC Cardiovascular Disorders 2007, 7:19doi:10.1186/1471-2261-7-19

Published: 13 July 2007

Abstract
Background
Asymptomatic subjects at intermediate coronary risk may need
diagnostic testing for risk stratification. Both measurement of
coronary calcium scores and exercise testing are well established
tests for this purpose. However, it is not clear which test should be
preferred as initial diagnostic test. We evaluated the prevalence of
documented coronary artery disease (CAD) according to calcium scores
and exercise test results.

Methods
Asymptomatic subjects with ST-T changes on a rest ECG were selected
from the population based PREVEND cohort study and underwent
measurement of calcium scores by electron beam tomography and exercise
testing. With calcium scores  10 or a positive exercise test,
myocardial perfusion imaging (MPS) or coronary angiography (CAG) was
recommended. The primary endpoint was documented obstructive CAD ( 50%
stenosis).

Results
Of 153 subjects included, 149 subjects completed the study protocol.
Calcium scores  400, 100-399, 10-99 and <10 were found in 16, 29, 18
and 86 subjects and the primary endpoint was present in 11 (69%), 12
(41%), 0 (0%) and 1 (1%) subjects, respectively. A positive,
nondiagnostic and negative exercise test was present in 33, 27 and 89
subjects and the primary endpoint was present in 13 (39%), 5 (19%) and
6 (7%) subjects, respectively. Receiver operator characteristics
analysis showed that the area under the curve, as measure of
diagnostic yield, of 0.91 (95% CI 0.84-0.97) for calcium scores was
superior to 0.74 (95% CI 0.64-0.83) for exercise testing (p = 0.004).

Conclusion
Measurement of coronary calcium scores is an appropriate initial non-
invasive test in asymptomatic subjects at increased coronary risk.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2261/7/19/abstract

*  *  *
I'm adding this to the discussion, for whatever it's worth.  It's an
open access journal, so anyone can read the study if they're
interested.  I just had a CAC scan and my score was 0.

I'm now on tamoxifen to lower my risk of having a recurrence of breast
cancer.  It increases the risk of strokes and blood clots (they made
me sign a form stating that I understood the risks).  Supposedly it
lowers LDL somewhat but can also raise TG.  I've seen it described as
"cardioprotective" in oncology journals, but I don't know what the
evidence is for that.

Marilyn
Jim Chinnis - 09 Oct 2007 18:00 GMT
MarilynMann <mannm@comcast.net> wrote in part:

>I just had a CAC scan and my score was 0.

Can't do much better than that!
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 09 Oct 2007 21:31 GMT
> friend MarilynMann <mannm@comcast.net> wrote in part:
>
> >I just had a CAC scan and my score was 0.
>
> Can't do much better than that!

You can by having a WHR less than 0.75 (for women... 0.85 for men).

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Cary Kittrell - 09 Oct 2007 19:03 GMT
> > Small scanners find hidden heart disease
> > Updated Sun. Oct. 7 2007 2:36 PM ET
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
> about possibly spending more than US$40,500,000,000.00 to screen for
> abnormal CIMT (carotid intima-media thicknesses).

Assuming one unit used one time only on just one patient.

Did you uncrate a fresh treadmill for every stress test, back
in the day?

-- cary
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 09 Oct 2007 20:19 GMT
> > > Small scanners find hidden heart disease
> > > Updated Sun. Oct. 7 2007 2:36 PM ET
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
>
> Assuming one unit used one time only on just one patient.

No.

The US$180.00 is not for the testing equipment but for the fee charged
by the technician to perform the testing.

Your getting this wrong simply indicates you are being led around by
the spirit of error (self) so that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right
to convict you:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Cary Kittrell - 09 Oct 2007 20:47 GMT
> > > > Small scanners find hidden heart disease
> > > > Updated Sun. Oct. 7 2007 2:36 PM ET
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
> The US$180.00 is not for the testing equipment but for the fee charged
> by the technician to perform the testing.

You are correct.

-- cary
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 09 Oct 2007 21:34 GMT
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 96 lines]
>
> You are correct.

Would redirect all the glory and praise to GOD so that we will both be
that much more blessed (hungrier).

HE is truly the Source of all righteousness.

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 09 Oct 2007 20:21 GMT
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > Small scanners find hidden heart disease
[quoted text clipped - 88 lines]
>
> Assuming one unit used one time only on just one patient.

No.

The US$180.00 is not for the testing equipment but for the fee charged
by the technician to perform the testing.

Your getting this wrong simply indicates you are being led around by
the spirit of error (self) so that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right
to convict you:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Cary Kittrell - 05 Oct 2007 20:12 GMT
> On Oct 4, 5:04 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
> <heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> If there really were demons (there aren't), they'd be in more
> danger of freezing their nuts off.

You simply lack discernment, thus rendering you unable to perceive
the global combustion of the atmosphere which was triggered by
Trident missle warheads raining down on Tehran like falling
stars.

(or are you too new to the Andy zoo to know what I'm babbling about?)

-- cary
Ferd Farkel - 06 Oct 2007 02:11 GMT
> In article <1191541182.831976.323...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> Ferd Farkel <frdf...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> Trident missle warheads raining down on Tehran like falling
> stars.

If the atmosphere could be ignited, you could do so
with a Bic lighter.  But since fuel is lacking (the second
point of the triangle), it can't happen for all the praying
in China.

> (or are you too new to the Andy zoo to know what I'm babbling about?)

You mean how he makes predictions of horrific doom, and
you can tell he's wringing his hands with glee just before
hitting [Enter]?  I'm quite familiar with his mental health
records.
Archie Leach - 06 Oct 2007 02:39 GMT
>> In article <1191541182.831976.323...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> Ferd Farkel <frdf...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
>hitting [Enter]?  I'm quite familiar with his mental health
>records.

I'm pretty sure Chung gets a massive hard-on every time he replaces a
name in the attributions line with "satan (via a sockpuppet) angrily
hissed:".
Cary Kittrell - 06 Oct 2007 03:46 GMT
Archie Leach <archie@antispam.ham>

> >> In article <1191541182.831976.323...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> Ferd Farkel <frdf...@yahoo.com> writes:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
> name in the attributions line with "satan (via a sockpuppet) angrily
> hissed:".

And if the "Convicts" list gets any longer, we're going to have to
think about putting in a couple of stoplights, maybe some sidewalks,
and setting up a tavern.  And a church -- quite a few on that list are
Christians (and some quite admirable)

-- cary
Ferd Farkel - 06 Oct 2007 05:46 GMT
> Archie Leach <arc...@antispam.ham>
>
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
> and setting up a tavern.  And a church -- quite a few on that list are
> Christians (and some quite admirable)

Any longer, it'll probably need a zipcode and apply for
statehood.
percy - 06 Oct 2007 22:56 GMT
>>> In article <1191541182.831976.323...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> Ferd Farkel <frdf...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> name in the attributions line with "satan (via a sockpuppet) angrily
> hissed:".

"Massive"? chung?

Unlikely.
Jim Chinnis - 04 Oct 2007 16:01 GMT
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdoc12@emorycardiology.com> wrote in part:

>If we started doing calcium scores and carotid intimal thicknesses on
>everyone who we believed to be at risk, we would soon learn that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>would be no money left for either medical, interventional, or surgical
>treatment.

Agree.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
bigvince - 05 Oct 2007 13:58 GMT
On Oct 4, 6:15 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:

> If we started doing calcium scores and carotid intimal thicknesses on
> everyone who we believed to be at risk, we would soon learn that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> would be no money left for either medical, interventional, or surgical
> treatment.

Not when you consider that many would not show disease and that the
expense of needless drugs such as the latest statin may not be
prescibed. The amount saved on needless and sometimes dangerous
medications may well result in less cost.The diagnostic cost goes up
but the needless and long term cost of medications goes down. Bad for
drug maker profits but good for patients .

Thanks Vince
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 05 Oct 2007 14:09 GMT
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Not when you consider that many would not show disease

Actually, all would either have abnormal calcium scores, abnormal
carotid intimal thicknesses, or both.

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Jim Chinnis - 05 Oct 2007 16:23 GMT
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <heartdoc20@emorycardiology.com> wrote in part:

>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Actually, all would either have abnormal calcium scores, abnormal
>carotid intimal thicknesses, or both.

Agree. And the tendencies to prescribe drugs and to take supplements is due
to the increasing prevalence of excess weight in the population.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 05 Oct 2007 19:23 GMT
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Agree. And the tendencies to prescribe drugs and to take supplements is due
> to the increasing prevalence of excess weight in the population.

What saddens me is the fact that when we are given the right
medications and supplements, it makes us healthier (hungrier)...

... then the lie in our hearts about hunger, compells us to overeat
even more thereby cancelling out the benefits of the medications and
supplements.

This is why satan's lie about hunger is murdering us.

It is written that satan is the source of all lies, that lying is his
native language, that he has been a liar and murderer from the very
beginning.

Now we know firsthand that this is true.

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Jim Chinnis - 05 Oct 2007 16:20 GMT
bigvince <Vince.Miraglia@gmail.com> wrote in part:

>On Oct 4, 6:15 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
><heartdo...@emorycardiology.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Thanks Vince

Statins and ACE-inhibitors are both available at $4/month in the US. Not
exactly national health-care budget-busters.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
bigvince - 05 Oct 2007 17:37 GMT
> bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part:

> Statins and ACE-inhibitors are both available at $4/month in the US. Not
> exactly national health-care budget-busters.
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA

Your numbers are in accurate from

Going to church may help you live longer
Added years similar to gains from exercise
Tuesday, April 04, 2006
By Joe Fahy, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

People who attend church regularly often focus on a life to come.

But they also may live longer on Earth, according to a new study.

The study by a University of Pittsburgh researcher found that people
who attend weekly religious services have a longer life expectancy.
Added years of life were similar to those associated with regular
exercise or taking statin-type drugs that lower cholesterol."

Later the story notes  ......."The average yearly cost of statin
therapy-- $836 -- was derived from a published review of usage
patterns of six drugs in more than 1,000 managed care plans. The cost
of regular exercise was estimated at $500, based on the annual cost of
membership at a local gym."

Not the 48 dollars you suggested but the real amount.......

.....The study found that regular exercise had the biggest effect on
longevity, accounting for about three to five additional years of
life. It also was the least expensive, costing $2,000 to $6,000 per
year of life gained.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06094/679237-51.stm
Jim Chinnis - 05 Oct 2007 18:54 GMT
bigvince <Vince.Miraglia@gmail.com> wrote in part:

>> bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
>http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06094/679237-51.stm

Maybe Joe Fahey knows what he's talking about, but the fact is that most
Americans can get simvastatin and lisonipril from Walmart for $4 each for 30
days supply.

People who would take statins are not necessary going to work out at the gym
to save money. The comparison Fahey makes is idiotic.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
William Wagner - 05 Oct 2007 20:02 GMT
> bigvince <Vince.Miraglia@gmail.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA

I do not know about being idiotic put the premise of a cheaper fix says
warning Will Roberson.

Bill who believes health must be earned and maintained with minor
transgressions forgiven. As to what is minor or major  I leave it to the
gods.

Bill

 Walked down my street
Saw a neighbor waved
No words

Isolation

Why?

Wonder what is on?

Signature

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade

This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

http://www.ocutech.com/  High tech Vison aid

bigvince - 06 Oct 2007 14:29 GMT
> bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part:

> >http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06094/679237-51.stm
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA- Hide quoted text -

The facts are accurate last year Lipitor alone sold 17 billion.The
average cost is close to 1000 a year not the 40 a year you suggest. To
guote the artcle
"The study found that regular exercise had the biggest effect on
longevity, accounting for about three to five additional years of
life. It also was the least expensive, costing $2,000 to $6,000 per
year of life gained.

The key fact is that exercise had the greatest health benefit and
without the side effects of statins . A reveiw of todays Walmart drug
list does not even list simvastin. Yoyr facts seem confused
Jim Chinnis - 06 Oct 2007 19:37 GMT
bigvince <Vince.Miraglia@gmail.com> wrote in part:

>> bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>without the side effects of statins . A reveiw of todays Walmart drug
>list does not even list simvastin. Yoyr facts seem confused

Are you unaware of the negative side effects of exercise? My gym has several
prominent advertisements on the walls for physical therapists. I've had a
torn rotator cuff that cost me thousands, including an MRI and physical
therapy. And the fact is--for planning purposes--a powerful generic statin
is now available at $4 per month. Costs are always high during the patent
period for a new drug. That period is pretty much over now for both statins
and ACE inhibitors.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 07 Oct 2007 00:22 GMT
> bigvince <Vince.Miraglia@gmail.com> wrote in part:
> >> bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> torn rotator cuff that cost me thousands, including an MRI and physical
> therapy.

Indeed, the only exercise that has been shown in RCTs to not increase
risk of injury is Taiji, which is what we locally encourage people to
become involved with:

http://TheWellnessFoundation.com/Taiji

> And the fact is--for planning purposes--a powerful generic statin
> is now available at $4 per month.

Yes, locally simvastatin is available at Walmart for $4 per month

(disclosure: none to report)

> Costs are always high during the patent
> period for a new drug. That period is pretty much over now for both statins
> and ACE inhibitors.

Except for the tissue-specific ACE inhibitors.

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be blessed:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/PressRelease

Prayerfully in the infinite power and might of the Holy Spirit,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Lawful steward of http://EmoryCardiology.com
Bondservant to the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Jim Chinnis - 05 Oct 2007 21:44 GMT
bigvince <Vince.Miraglia@gmail.com> wrote in part:

>> bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
>http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06094/679237-51.stm

That was then; this is now. There are now effective statins and ACE
inhibitors avaailable at very low prices. Since we are discussing future
testing policies, we should use estimates of future costs and not those of
the past.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
bigvince - 06 Oct 2007 14:45 GMT
> bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA- Hide quoted text -

That was the latest cost of statins ; the ones actually prescibed 1000
a year not the 40 dollars you suggest. The cost of testing to see if
you actually need a statin would also come down greatly as it became
routine; to actually look at the condition and see if drugs are even
needed . Most people would prefer to not use a drug that has no
benefit for them.Those given a clean bill of health by a simple test
avoid the common and sometimes devastating side effects of statins.It
is also in line with the" first do no harm " view of medicine.
 
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