Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / July 2007
TNT study -- patients 65 and over
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MarilynMann - 28 Jul 2007 15:04 GMT Outcomes of Using High- or Low-Dose Atorvastatin in Patients 65 Years of Age or Older with Stable Coronary Heart Disease
Nanette K. Wenger, MD; Sandra J. Lewis, MD; David M. Herrington, MD; Vera Bittner, MD; Francine K. Welty, MD, PhD, for the Treating to New Targets Study Steering Committee and Investigators
Annals of Internal Medicine, 3 July 2007 | Volume 147 Issue 1 | Pages 1-9
Background: Increased life expectancy is associated with an increase in the burden of chronic cardiovascular disease.
Objective: To assess the efficacy and safety of high-dose atorvastatin in patients 65 years of age or older.
Design: A prespecified secondary analysis of the Treating to New Targets study, a randomized, double-blind clinical trial.
Setting: 256 sites in 14 countries participating in the Treating to New Targets study.
Participants: 10 001 patients (3809 patients 65 years of age) with coronary heart disease (CHD) and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels less than 3.4 mmol/L (<130 mg/dL).
Intervention: Patients were randomly assigned to receive atorvastatin, 10 or 80 mg/d.
Measurements: The primary end point was the occurrence of a first major cardiovascular event (death from CHD, nonfatal non-procedure- related myocardial infarction, resuscitated cardiac arrest, or fatal or nonfatal stroke).
Results: In patients 65 years of age or older, absolute risk was reduced by 2.3% and relative risk by 19% for major cardiovascular events in favor of the high-dose atorvastatin group (hazard ratio, 0.81 [95% CI, 0.67 to 0.98]; P = 0.032). Among the components of the composite outcome, the mortality rates from CHD, nonfatal non- procedure-related myocardial infarction, and fatal or nonfatal stroke (ischemic, embolic, hemorrhagic, or unknown origin) were all lower in older patients who received high-dose atorvastatin, although the difference was not statistically significant for each individual component. The improved clinical outcome in patients 65 years of age or older was not associated with persistent elevations in creatine kinase levels.
Limitation: Because the study was a secondary analysis, the findings should be interpreted within the context of the main study results.
Conclusions: The analysis suggests that additional clinical benefit can be achieved by treating older patients with CHD more aggressively to reduce low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels to less than 2.6 mmol/L (<100 mg/dL). The findings support the use of intensive low- density lipoprotein cholesterol-lowering therapy in high-risk older persons with established cardiovascular disease.
* * * It's possible somebody has already posted this, but I didn't find it.
It's hard to get too excited about the absolute risk reduction demonstrated here, especially with apparently no demonstrated reduction in all-cause mortality.
There's something I don't understand. I read a description of the TNT study and it said some of the people had already had an MI. In that case, how can the primary endpoint be occurrence of first cardiovascular event?
Marilyn
Jim Chinnis - 28 Jul 2007 20:30 GMT MarilynMann <mannm@comcast.net> wrote in part:
>It's hard to get too excited about the absolute risk reduction >demonstrated here, A cure would give only an 11% absolute risk reduction.
>especially with apparently no demonstrated >reduction in all-cause mortality. I believe there was an all-cause mortality benefit in the full cohort. Maybe I'm misremembering. It's pretty tough to show an all-cause mortality benefit in this kind of subgroup analysis. It's an elderly subgroup, too, which raises the noise from non-CV mortality.
>There's something I don't understand. I read a description of the TNT >study and it said some of the people had already had an MI. In that >case, how can the primary endpoint be occurrence of first >cardiovascular event? I assume they refer to the first CV event after study enrollment. Having two or more events doesn't change anything--only the first is recorded. Something like that... -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
MarilynMann - 28 Jul 2007 20:45 GMT > MarilynMann <ma...@comcast.net> wrote in part: > > >It's hard to get too excited about the absolute risk reduction > >demonstrated here, > > A cure would give only an 11% absolute risk reduction. I think it should be up to the patient whether they think it is worth it or not.
> >especially with apparently no demonstrated > >reduction in all-cause mortality. > I believe there was an all-cause mortality benefit in the full cohort. Maybe > I'm misremembering. It's pretty tough to show an all-cause mortality benefit > in this kind of subgroup analysis. It's an elderly subgroup, too, which > raises the noise from non-CV mortality. The article I read said TNT was insufficiently powered to demonstrate reduction in all-cause mortality, or something along those lines.
> >There's something I don't understand. I read a description of the TNT > >study and it said some of the people had already had an MI. In that > >case, how can the primary endpoint be occurrence of first > >cardiovascular event? > I assume they refer to the first CV event after study enrollment. You're probably right.
My mother-in-law is 80 and her doctor suddenly decided he wants to increase her dose of whatever statin she's on (I asked but she didn't know). Well, whatever. I'm not sure there's all that much benefit to doing that, but it's not up to me. She had a heart attack 22 years ago, she has heart failure, AF, hypertension. It's a wonder she's still alive.
Marilyn
Jim Chinnis - 28 Jul 2007 21:40 GMT MarilynMann <mannm@comcast.net> wrote in part:
>> MarilynMann <ma...@comcast.net> wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I think it should be up to the patient whether they think it is worth >it or not. Isn't it? I've certainly made my own decisions and thought hard about the probabilities of outcomes and adverse events and what they entailed. A 2.3% absolute risk reduction over the study period for things like heart attacks and strokes isn't minor to me. Take 40 people represented by the study group and then realize that the dose change would save one of them from a stroke or heart attack over the short period. (I take the low dose, BTW. I do so because my absolute risk is fairly low already and because my lipids are all excellent on 10 mg. But it's a roll of the dice.)
>> >especially with apparently no demonstrated >> >reduction in all-cause mortality. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The article I read said TNT was insufficiently powered to demonstrate >reduction in all-cause mortality, or something along those lines. Then there's certainly no way to try to see an all-cause mortality effect on an elderly subgroup!
>> >There's something I don't understand. I read a description of the TNT >> >study and it said some of the people had already had an MI. In that [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >ago, she has heart failure, AF, hypertension. It's a wonder she's >still alive. It's a tough, complicated decision. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
William Wagner - 28 Jul 2007 21:53 GMT > MarilynMann <mannm@comcast.net> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA If it is a tough, complicated decision does anyone know of a tool to help decide. Must we stumble on through making decisions on personal interaction aka side effects. My docs working to help me gave me 22% muscle loss. Once hurt I am leery. Very!!!!
Anyway an 80 year old that tough offers great genes.
Bill
 Signature S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.
Jim Chinnis - 28 Jul 2007 22:26 GMT William Wagner <-----williamwag@gmail.com> wrote in part:
> If it is a tough, complicated decision does anyone know of a tool to >help decide. Must we stumble on through making decisions on personal >interaction aka side effects. > My docs working to help me gave me 22% muscle loss. Once hurt I am >leery. Very!!!! Your decision of whether to take 80 mg Lipitor should be a snap, Bill.
Before you reacted badly to statins, your decision should depend on the available studies and how your risk and situation compares with the people in those studies. Like I said, these decisions can be tough.
> Anyway an 80 year old that tough offers great genes. Yes. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
MarilynMann - 28 Jul 2007 22:26 GMT > >I think it should be up to the patient whether they think it is worth > >it or not. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and then realize that the dose change would save one of them from a stroke > or heart attack over the short period. It is, but most people aren't well-informed like you are, and a lot of doctors don't discuss the details of risk reduction with their patients.
Also, a short period to you isn't that short to someone age 80 who has heart failure.
Marilyn
Jim Chinnis - 28 Jul 2007 23:10 GMT MarilynMann <mannm@comcast.net> wrote in part:
>Also, a short period to you isn't that short to someone age 80 who has >heart failure. Yes, and that should be part of the analysis. If health is good and the patient enjoys life, and if the higher dose statin would materially improve the heart failure prospects/symptoms, then it might be a good choice. Otherwise, I would doubt it. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
MarilynMann - 28 Jul 2007 23:42 GMT > MarilynMann <ma...@comcast.net> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Otherwise, I would doubt it. > -- Actually, her health is not that good and she doesn't seem to be enjoying life that much. But she hasn't asked my opinion on the statin dose, and my experience with giving her unsolicited opinions has not been good.
As for her genes, I don't know if you've been reading my posts on my husband and daughter, but the early heart disease/high cholesterol is from her and her father.
Marilyn
David Rind - 29 Jul 2007 01:33 GMT >>I believe there was an all-cause mortality benefit in the full cohort. Maybe >>I'm misremembering. It's pretty tough to show an all-cause mortality benefit [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The article I read said TNT was insufficiently powered to demonstrate > reduction in all-cause mortality, or something along those lines. Jim is misremembering. There was no effect on all-cause mortality in the full cohort. The effects in the elderly subset looked a lot like the group as a whole.
There was a claim that TNT was underpowered to show a mortality benefit, but at some level this is just silly. It was an enormous trial, and if it was "underpowered" for mortality, that would mean that any real mortality benefit must be tiny. In fact, there was no trend toward mortality benefit in TNT. There was also no trend toward mortality benefit in the similar IDEAL trial.
So we have two very large trials showing that intensive statin therapy does not reduce all-cause mortality compared with less-intensive statin therapy in people with stable CHD.
 Signature David Rind drind@caregroup.harvard.edu
Jim Chinnis - 29 Jul 2007 04:09 GMT David Rind <drind@caregroup.harvard.edu> wrote in part:
>>>I believe there was an all-cause mortality benefit in the full cohort. Maybe >>>I'm misremembering. It's pretty tough to show an all-cause mortality benefit [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >does not reduce all-cause mortality compared with less-intensive statin >therapy in people with stable CHD. Sorry I misremembered. Not much time lately to check my facts. Thank you for setting things right. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
bigvince - 30 Jul 2007 00:25 GMT > >>I believe there was an all-cause mortality benefit in the full cohort. Maybe > >>I'm misremembering. It's pretty tough to show an all-cause mortality benefit [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > David Rind > dr...@caregroup.harvard.edu There was an interesting look at this on medpage today
"When the investigators evaluated components of the composite outcome, they found trends, albeit not statistically significant, for lower mortality from coronary, and non-significant trends toward lower rates of non-procedure-related myocardial infarction, and fatal or nonfatal stroke (ischemic, embolic, hemorrhagic, or unknown origin) in high- dose versus low-dose arms. '
To me such evidence does not seem all that compelling for the higher dose.However the authors state
"Our findings support the recommendations of the recent National Cholesterol Education Program guidelines for use of intensive LDL cholesterol-lowering therapy in high-risk older persons with established cardiovascular disease,""
A curious comment when there was more all cause mortality in the higher dose group. Actually the add your knowledge post noted.
" John R. Su, MD, PhD, MPH - Jul 05, 2007
"The 80 mg group incurred elevated LFTs (over three times the upper limit of normal) 13 TIMES as often as the 10 mg group ( 1.3% vs 0.1%). That's a steep price to pay for about a 20% reduction in relative risk of a major CV event. The liver takes quite a hit to spare the cardiovascular system. Practitioners planning to use the 80 mg regimen for their patients should carefully help their patients weigh the costs (in terms of liver damage) and benefits (in terms of cardiac benefit) prior to using th 80 mg dose."
A view I totally agree with.
" High-Dose Statins Give Older Patients Added Protection " link http://www.medpagetoday.com/Cardiology/CoronaryArteryDisease/tb1/6081
thanks Vince
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