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Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / July 2007

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Effect of the Magnitude of Lipid Lowering on Risk of Elevated Liver Enzymes, Rhabdomyolysis, and Cancer:  Insights From Large Randomized Statin Trials

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MarilynMann - 25 Jul 2007 13:41 GMT
J Am Coll Cardiol, 2007; 50:409-418, doi:10.1016/j.jacc.2007.02.073

CLINICAL RESEARCH: STATINS AND TOXICITY

Effect of the Magnitude of Lipid Lowering on Risk of Elevated Liver
Enzymes, Rhabdomyolysis, and Cancer
Insights From Large Randomized Statin Trials

Alawi A. Alsheikh-Ali, MD, Prasad V. Maddukuri, MD, Hui Han, MD and
Richard H. Karas, MD, PhD1,*
Molecular Cardiology Research Institute and Division of Cardiology,
Department of Medicine, Tufts-New England Medical Center and Tufts
University School of Medicine, Boston, Massachusetts.

* Reprint requests and correspondence: Dr. Richard H. Karas, Molecular
Cardiology Research Institute, Box #80, Tufts-New England Medical
Center, 750 Washington Street, Boston, Massachusetts 02111. (Email:
rkaras@tufts-nemc.org).

Objectives: We sought to assess the relationship between the magnitude
of low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C) lowering and rates of
elevated liver enzymes, rhabdomyolysis, and cancer.

Background: Although it is often assumed that statin-associated
adverse events are proportional to LDL-C reduction, that assumption
has not been validated.

Methods: Adverse events reported in large prospective randomized
statin trials were evaluated. The relationship between LDL-C reduction
and rates of elevated liver enzymes, rhabdomyolysis, and cancer per
100,000 person-years was assessed using weighted univariate
regression.

Results: In 23 statin treatment arms with 309,506 person-years of
follow-up, there was no significant relationship between percent LDL-C
lowering and rates of elevated liver enzymes (R2 <0.001, p = 0.91) or
rhabdomyolysis (R2 = 0.05, p = 0.16). Similar results were obtained
when absolute LDL-C reduction or achieved LDL-C levels were
considered. In contrast, for any 10% LDL-C reduction, rates of
elevated liver enzymes increased significantly with higher statin
doses. Additional analyses demonstrated a significant inverse
association between cancer incidence and achieved LDL-C levels (R2 =
0.43, p = 0.009), whereas no such association was demonstrated with
percent LDL-C reduction (R2 = 0.09, p = 0.92) or absolute LDL-C
reduction (R2 = 0.05, p = 0.23).

Conclusions: Risk of statin-associated elevated liver enzymes or
rhabdomyolysis is not related to the magnitude of LDL-C lowering.
However, the risk of cancer is significantly associated with lower
achieved LDL-C levels. These findings suggest that drug- and dose-
specific effects are more important determinants of liver and muscle
toxicity than magnitude of LDL-C lowering. Furthermore, the
cardiovascular benefits of low achieved levels of LDL-C may in part be
offset by an increased risk of cancer.

Marilyn
MarilynMann - 25 Jul 2007 13:49 GMT
New analysis uncovers relationship between low LDL-cholesterol levels
and cancer

July 23, 2007  Michael O'Riordan

Boston, MA - Results from a new analysis, initially designed to
determine whether there was a correlation between the extent to which
statins lowered LDL-cholesterol levels and liver and muscle toxicity,
suggests that the cardiovascular benefits of achieved levels of LDL
cholesterol might be offset by an increased risk of cancer [1]. In an
analysis of patients enrolled in large, randomized statin trials,
investigators observed a "significant and linear relationship" between
achieved LDL levels and the risk of new cancer cases.

"The statin trials have clearly shown that statin therapy, overall,
reduces cardiovascular risk," said senior investigator Dr Richard
Karas (Tufts-New England Medical Center, Boston, MA). "These findings
don't change that. They're based on the same studies. But a component
of that, perhaps one of the costs of that, is a relationship between
the LDL lowering and cancer risk."

Speaking with heartwire, Karas said there is concern about how the new
findings will be reported and interpreted, especially if the message
causes some patients to stop taking statins. "What we're always doing
in terms of trying to take care of patients is balance benefit and
risk," he said. "This analysis was really focused on trying to enhance
our understanding of the risk side of that equation. It has produced a
provocative and interesting result that raises a lot of new
questions . . . but it's a complicated message, and the conclusion
people will jump to if they are not being careful is that statins
cause cancer. We don't know that, and our data don't show that."

In an editorial accompanying the published study, which appears in the
July 31, 2007 issue of the Journal of the American College of
Cardiology, Dr John LaRosa (State University of New York Downstate
Medical Center, Brooklyn) observes that the benefits of all drugs come
with a price [2]. While these new data do not provide definitive
answers to the question of cancer risk associated with lowering
cholesterol levels, he said the finding highlights an issue that has
been repeatedly raised: does the process of lowering LDL, particularly
to very low levels, introduce hazards of its own in either causing or
accelerating the progress of cancer?

LaRosa, who is the chair of the steering committee of the Pfizer-
sponsored Treating to New Targets (TNT) study, said the findings
should be viewed only as hypothesis generating. While clinicians
should continue to be vigilant in ensuring the benefits of statins
outweigh the risks, this vigilance should not deny the benefits of LDL
lowering to those who need it, he said, a sentiment echoed by the
study authors. "The bottom line is that at the current time clinical
practice should not change," said Karas.

Initially only looked at muscle and liver toxicity
Speaking with heartwire, Karas said the cancer association was a
surprise and initially wasn't even on his group's radar. The Boston
researchers conducted their analysis examining the relationship of the
degree of LDL-cholesterol lowering to liver toxicity and
rhabdomyolysis in 23 randomized, controlled trials assessing statin
therapy, including, among others, the Scandinavian Simvastatin
Survival Study (4S), West of Scotland Coronary Prevention Study
(WOSCOPS), Long-term Intervention with Pravastatin in Ischemic Disease
(LIPID) study, the Heart Protection Study (HPS), and the more recent
trials of intensive vs moderate lipid-lowering therapy such as PROVE-
IT, TNT, and IDEAL.

Investigators also studied the effect of drug dosage on liver and
muscle toxicity. In the first analysis, no matter how investigators
looked at the extent of LDL reduction, as a relative or absolute
reduction or achieved LDL-cholesterol levels, they observed no
relationship between how much the cholesterol was lowered and the risk
of liver or muscle toxicity. In the second analysis, however, when
they looked at muscle toxicity on the basis of the dose of the drugs,
they found that the higher the dose of statins used in the study, the
higher the risk of toxicity to the liver.

"Overall, statins are very safe, but the safety implication here is
that it does matter how you lower LDL-cholesterol levels," said Karas.
"In other words, the high-dose statins are associated with a higher
risk of side effects. This does then have implications for how we
practice medicine, the question being, and it's just a question, as to
whether or not we might be better off using multiple medications, all
at modest doses, to try to get the cholesterol targets that we want to
get to, to minimize side effects and maximize the benefit."

Cancer findings
Considering these findings worthy of publication, the group submitted
the manuscript to the Journal of the American College of Cardiology,
but, as noted in an editorial comment by journal editors Dr Anthony
DeMaria and Ori Ben-Yehuda [3], the researchers were asked to include
cancer in the analysis because "this was the other major side effect
often feared from statin therapy." Of the 23 statin therapy trials, 13
studies included the number of patients with newly diagnosed cancer.
Overall, there was no significant relationship between percent and
absolute reductions in LDL-cholesterol levels. There was, however, a
highly significant inverse relationship between achieved LDL-
cholesterol levels and rates of newly diagnosed cancer (R2=0.43,
p=0.009). The researchers found one additional incident of cancer per
1000 patients with low LDL levels when compared with patients with
higher LDL levels. The new cancers were not of any specific type or
location.

To heartwire, Karas said the findings are paradoxical in light of
recent meta-analyses concluding there is no significant increase in
the risk of cancer with statin therapy. Karas stressed, however, that
the new findings are observational, hypothesis generating, and in no
way definitive. "This is an association at this point," he said. "It
might have nothing to do with cause and effect. The best analogy is to
say that I have a dog, and every time an airplane goes over my house,
my dog goes out into the backyard and barks at the plane. That
airplane has never landed in my yard. Now we could say there is a very
strong association between my dog barking and planes not landing in my
yard, but there certainly is no cause and effect. "Even if the risk of
cancer is increased with statin use, Karas said clinicians would have
to balance the magnitude of that risk with the benefits of statin
therapy.

Dr Thomas Pearson (University of Rochester School of Medicine, NY),
who was not affiliated with the study, told heartwire that the results
should be interpreted carefully.

"In many ways it is d?j? vu all over again," said Pearson. "In the
1970s, there were several papers describing higher risks from cancer
in those with the lowest cholesterol levels. This is from the
prestatin era. Old-time clinicians will tell you that monitoring
cholesterol levels is useful, such that when they start to fall, you
should look for a cancer. Indeed, the MRFIT study looked at this and
showed the shorter the interval between the cancer diagnosis and the
blood test, the lower the cholesterol."

For this reason, said Pearson, one should assume the very low
cholesterol levels in patients with cancer on statins are due to a
cancer-low cholesterol link rather than a statin-cancer association.

In his editorial, LaRosa points out that no single form of cancer
predominates, "so the effect of low achieved LDL would have to have
been one that stimulates neoplasia in a variety of tissues." In
addition, the effect of low LDL-cholesterol levels would have to be
unusually rapid, given that most statin trials lasted five years or
less, in producing new cancers.

Most important, LaRosa said it is possible to further address the
cancer risk without further trials. Karas and colleagues had access to
just 13 studies reporting the number and type of incident cancers.
Other data sets have not been published, but an analysis of other LDL-
lowering trials, including statin studies, other drug studies, diet,
or even ileal-bypass surgery trials, supported by a neutral source
such as the National Institutes of Health, could determine whether
there is a significant problem with low LDL-cholesterol levels that
needs to be addressed, said LaRosa.

Study generated scrutiny and discussion
In their editorial comment, DeMaria and Ben-Yehuda write that in the
five years they have been editors at Journal of the American College
of Cardiology, no other manuscript stimulated such intense scrutiny
and discussion.

"Given the growing public angst regarding the safety of prescription
medications, all were concerned that the paper contained great
potential for harm and good," they write. "In the end, we agreed to
publish the article with as much caution and perspective as possible."

The editorialists point out the manuscript has limitations, as noted
by Karas and colleagues, including the retrospective use of summary
data, use of data from clinical trials rather than real-world
experience, and the lack of standardization of adverse events in the
individual trials. Given the limitations, and the potential that
physicians, patients, and the media might misinterpret the results,
several associate editors argued that the paper not be published.

"However, in the final analysis, the consensus was that these findings
could not be ignored, that they did indeed warrant further
investigation, and that they should be aired in public," write DeMaria
and Ben-Yehuda.

Karas reports that he has received research grants from AstraZeneca
and Kos Pharmaceuticals; has served on the speakers' bureaus and/or
received honoraria from Kos, AstraZeneca, Merck, and Pfizer; and has
served as a consultant to Kos. LaRosa reports honoraria for speaking
or consulting from Pfizer, Bristol-Myers Squibb, and Merck.

Sources

Alsheikh-Ali AA, Maddukuri PV, Han H, Karas RH. Effect of magnitude of
lipid lowering on risk of elevated liver enzymes, rhabdomyolysis, and
cancer. J Am Coll Cardiol 2007; 50:409-418. DOI: 10.1016/j.jacc.
2007.02.073. Available at: http://content.onlinejacc.org.

LaRosa JC. Means and ends of statins and low-density lipoprotein
cholesterol lowering. J Am Coll Cardiol 2007; 50:419-420. DOI: 10.1016/
j.jacc.2007.04.044. Available at: http://content.onlinejacc.org.

DeMaria AN, Ben-Yehuda O. Low-density lipoprotein reduction and
cancer. J Am Coll Cardiol 2007; 50:421-422. DOI: 10.1016/j.jacc.
2007.06.003. Available at: http://content.onlinejacc.org.

Marilyn
Jim Chinnis - 25 Jul 2007 17:51 GMT
MarilynMann <mannm@comcast.net> wrote in part:

>New analysis uncovers relationship between low LDL-cholesterol levels
>and cancer

Note that this is a "new analysis" based on a less than rigorous pooling of
studies. Note that it also conflicts with the biggest randomized clinical
trial data. Note also that the effect size is very, very small.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
MarilynMann - 25 Jul 2007 18:00 GMT
> MarilynMann <ma...@comcast.net> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA

Yes, you're right.  I was just posting it for informational purposes.

I question Dr. Karas' reasoning on using multiple medications.

Marilyn
bigvince - 26 Jul 2007 18:11 GMT
> MarilynMann <ma...@comcast.net> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA

But it should not be surprising this link has been seen before.  from

Statin Drugs - A Critical Review of the Risk/Benefit Clinical Research
Joel M. Kauffman, Ph.D.
Professor of Chemistry Emeritus
USP
Philadelphia, PA, USA   [ excerps]

The supposed benefits of the statins, beyond a large, but meaningless
lowering of TC and LDL, long recognized as a worthless surrogate
endpoint,[3] are usually given as lowered relative risks (RR) of
mostly non-fatal heart attacks without the slightest indication of the
low magnitude of the more meaningful reduction of absolute risk or of
all-cause death rates. This misrepresentation has been noted.[1,4]  So
the usual tout of pravastatin in the WOSCOPS trial, based on a 22%
drop in all-cause mortality, was given without the information that
this was only a 0.9% drop absolute in the 5-year trial period, or
0.18% per year. The higher all-cause death rates in 2 of the big
trials of lovastatin were ignored, as was the higher breast cancer
rate (RR = 1500%) in the CARE trial with pravastatin.[1]  Furthermore,
it is also known that studies of drugs sponsored by their maker are
often biased or selected, so even the 0.9% was probably exaggerated.
[5-7]

Besides cancer, the other side effects of statins listed were
incomplete, and should have included constipation, myalgia, myopathy,
polyneuropathy, liver and kidney damage, congestive heart failure and
amnesia. Side-effects are usually said to affect 2-6% of patients. In
fact, a recent meta-analysis noted side-effects in 20% of patients
above the placebo rate (65% vs. 45%), and no change whatever in the
all-cause death rate for atorvastatin. [8] The PROSPER trial on
pravastatin showed no change in the all-cause death rate, and
increased cancer and stroke rates. 9 Statins are commonly used at a
dose to lower TC to < 160 mg/dL, a level noted in the report of a
NHLBI conference to be associated with higher cancer rates.[10]

Statins decrease the body's production of the essential coenzyme Q-10
and dolichol, among other things. Low Q-10 levels are strongly
associated with congestive heart failure.[10a]
La Leva di Archimede
"Give me a place to stand on and I will move the earth",
We put the principle of the lever to the service of individual
freedom.     http://www.laleva.org/eng/2004/04/statin_drugs_a_critical_review_of_the_riskbene
fit_clinical_research.html

tahnks Vince
Jim Chinnis - 26 Jul 2007 19:36 GMT
bigvince <Vince.Miraglia@gmail.com> wrote in part:

>> MarilynMann <ma...@comcast.net> wrote in part:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>freedom.     http://www.laleva.org/eng/2004/04/statin_drugs_a_critical_review_of_the_riskbene
fit_clinical_research.html

>tahnks Vince

I think it was the huge TRT trial that had supposedly laid those fears
(almost) to rest. What you quote above appears to be old and incomplete.

This is an area where people can and do fashion reasonable-looking analyses
based on noisy data...
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
bigvince - 26 Jul 2007 21:44 GMT
> bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> based on noisy data...
> --

Actually the new study quoted to start this thread seems to raise
anew  the fear that statins cause cancer. It is possible that some
statins have a greater risk of this than others. The fact is that LDL
levels are at best a weak indicator of CVD and that statins may vary
in their risk of causing cancer.

Statins and the Risk of Cancer
Robin E. Duncan, Ahmed El-Sohemy, and Michael C. Archer
JAMA. 2006;295:2720.

To the Editor: In their meta-analysis, Dr Dale and colleagues1
stratified cancer risk associated with statin use according to the
hydrophilicity or lipophilicity of the individual drugs. This
physicochemical property affects uptake of a particular statin by
extrahepatic cells, including malignant cells, in which it can inhibit
cell growth by down-regulating the synthesis of mevalonate.2 In
interpreting this study, there are 2 points that should be addressed.

First, although atorvastatin and fluvastatin were classified (along
with pravastatin) as hydrophilic statins, they are usually considered
to be lipophilic.3 Unlike hydrophilic pravastatin, atorvastatin and
fluvastatin readily enter extrahepatic cells,3 including cancer cells.
4 No rationale was given for the classification of these statins as
hydrophilic.

Second, site-specific cancer risk should be analyzed separately for
hydrophilic pravastatin and the lipophilic statins, because it is
biologically plausible that pravastatin may increase the risk of some
extrahepatic cancers.Robin E. Duncan, PhD
robin_duncan@berkeley.edu
Departments of Nutritional Sciences and Toxicology
University of California
Berkeley

Ahmed El-Sohemy, PhD; Michael C. Archer, PhD, DSc
Department of Nutritional Sciences
University of Toronto
Toronto, Ontario

As the effect of statin benefit is largely derived from non LDL
lowering methods the emphasis on LDL reduction may have unexpected
negative effects. Myopathy some note that congestive heart failure may
increase as a result of statin use. Personally I think it far better
to find out what amount of statin benefit is related to non- lipid
lowering as there are safer methods to achieve comparable or suprerior
results.

From Statin Drugs - A Critical Review of the Risk/Benefit Clinical
Research
Joel M. Kauffman, Ph.D.
Professor of Chemistry Emeritus
USP
Philadelphia, PA, USA

'Statins decrease the body's production of the essential coenzyme Q-10
and dolichol, among other things. Low Q-10 levels are strongly
associated with congestive heart failure.[10a]

There is some recognition that statins operate to lower non-fatal
heart attack rates by mechanisms other than cholesterol lowering, but
none that their desirable effect on thromboxane A2 is less than men
can obtain with buffered aspirin,[11] or that the desirable effect of
raising nitric oxide (NO) levels is less than one can obtain with the
supplement L-arginine with no side-effects. These effects of statins
are independent of initial or final TC or LDL levels,[12] and thus
there is no way to determine who "should be treated" with statins, or
what the dose should be.

Since the use of statins for primary prevention of CVD has been shown
to increase all-cause mortality by 1% over a 10-year period,13 and has
very little to no effect in secondary prevention of death,[9,11,14,15]
it would seem that there is no cost-benefit in primary prevention, and
very little for secondary prevention.

The most favorable trial with seemingly impeccable reporting and
minimal financial conflict of interest was the Heart Protection Study
(HPS), on simvastatin for 5 years, in which secondary prevention in
men (86% of patients) of any unwanted vascular event gave a RR = 0.76
(5.5% absolute, 1.1% per year), and an all-cause death rate drop of
0.38% per year.16 Since this performance is inferior to that of either
Bufferin? in men [11] or omega-3 fatty acid supplements,[17] both of
which have lesser side-effects, and are far less expensive, the logic
of prescribing simvastatin seems faulty.

In another example, total cardiovascular events and procedures were 2%
absolute lower with atorvastatin than with placebo after 3.5 years,
giving RR = 0.79. This is a poorer performance than that of Bufferin?
for which RR = 0.31 for non-fatal MI in men during 7 years.[11]  With
omega-3 fatty acid supplements during 3.5 years, total cardiovascular
events had RR = 0.80, and for all fatal events in this period RR =
0.7917 vs. about 1.0 for atorvastatin.[8]

Atorvastatin and simvastatin are the statin drugs most likely to cause
memory loss.[18]

In the ASCOT-LLA trial19 on hypertensive subjects with average or
lower TC, there was no change in the all-cause death rate vs. placebo
after 3.5 years; however there was a higher incidence of the
arbitrarily defined primary endpoint of non-fatal MI plus fatal CVD
among the 19% women in the trial, similar to the effect of aspirin in
women.[20]

Careful examination of the literature on statin drugs reveals false
premises, minimal to no benefits, serious side-effects leading to very
low adherence rates,[8,21] and safer, low-cost alternatives for
prevention of CVD deaths.
http://www.laleva.org/eng/2004/04/statin_drugs_a_critical_review_of_the_riskbene
fit_clinical_research.html


   As the targets are set lower and lower I expect that the side
effect profile will be more and more severe.
      Thanks Vince
William Wagner - 26 Jul 2007 22:02 GMT
> > bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 140 lines]
> effect profile will be more and more severe.
>        Thanks Vince

Vince are you really Zee or Fresh Horses of Sharon?

This is a compliment.

Bill

Signature

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade  
http://www.ocutech.com/  High tech Vison aid
This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

bigvince - 26 Jul 2007 23:15 GMT
> In article <1185482699.743713.51...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 150 lines]
>
> --
Thanks.  Vince
bigvince - 26 Jul 2007 23:09 GMT
> bigvince <Vince.Mirag...@gmail.com> wrote in part:

> >Statins decrease the body's production of the essential coenzyme Q-10
> >and dolichol, among other things. Low Q-10 levels are strongly
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I think it was the huge TRT trial that had supposedly laid those fears
> (almost) to rest. What you quote above appears to be old and incomplete.

This is newer

Effect of the Magnitude of Lipid Lowering on Risk of Elevated Liver
Enzymes, Rhabdomyolysis, and Cancer
Insights From Large Randomized Statin Trials

Alawi A. Alsheikh-Ali, MD, Prasad V. Maddukuri, MD, Hui Han, MD and
Richard H. Karas, MD, PhD1,*
Molecular Cardiology Research Institute and Division of Cardiology,
Department of Medicine, Tufts-New England Medical Center and Tufts
University School of Medicine, Boston, Massachusetts.

Manuscript received February 14, 2007; accepted February 21, 2007.

Results: In 23 statin treatment arms with 309,506 person-years of
follow-up, there was no significant relationship between percent LDL-C
lowering and rates of elevated liver enzymes (R2 <0.001, p = 0.91) or
rhabdomyolysis (R2 = 0.05, p = 0.16). Similar results were obtained
when absolute LDL-C reduction or achieved LDL-C levels were
considered. In contrast, for any 10% LDL-C reduction, rates of
elevated liver enzymes increased significantly with higher statin
doses. Additional analyses demonstrated a significant inverse
association between cancer incidence and achieved LDL-C levels (R2 =
0.43, p = 0.009), whereas no such association was demonstrated with
percent LDL-C reduction (R2 = 0.09, p = 0.92) or absolute LDL-C
reduction (R2 = 0.05, p = 0.23).

Conclusions: Risk of statin-associated elevated liver enzymes or
rhabdomyolysis is not related to the magnitude of LDL-C lowering.
However, the risk of cancer is significantly associated with lower
achieved LDL-C levels. These findings suggest that drug- and dose-
specific effects are more important determinants of liver and muscle
toxicity than magnitude of LDL-C lowering. Furthermore, the
cardiovascular benefits of low achieved levels of LDL-C may in part be
offset by an increased risk of cancer.   http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/content/short/50/5/409

Seems similar. Liver and muscle damage track up with statin dose as
does cancer. Perhaps thats why statin use has not been proven to
reduce all cause  mortality in primary prevention . A few less CVD,s a
few more cancers , a liver problem or two perhaps a cardio- myopathy
and a lot of people who have sore muscles.

Thanks Vince
James216440@yahoo.com - 27 Jul 2007 01:34 GMT
> MarilynMann <ma...@comcast.net> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA

The real problem with such a study as this is the exposure time.  Even
if statin treatment resulted in statistically significant excess
cancers the treatment times of only a few years are simply way too
short to show that statins are the cause of the cancer.  We already
know that statins are not rampant carcinogens from all the animal and
human testing.  They are simply sort of garden variety slow acting
carcinogens like lots of things.

So any excess cancers seen in these studies are simply some side
effect of, for instance, a very mild immune defect that releases the
already existing cancer into an agressive state a bit faster then
would otherwise be expected. These studies were all only a few years
as I recall.  What you would expect to see is a mild increase in
cancer rates in the early period of treatment.  Then after a few years
the cancer rate should drop back to background rates or even lower,
particularly if you do not correct the data for the early onset
cancers.  Then out at some 20 or 30 years of treatment you could
expect to start to see cancers resulting from statin treatment.

A very big hint in the pretty weak data package is cancers seen were
not specific.  Virtually all chemical carcinogens strongly target
particular organs rather then cause a non specific distribution of
cancers.

In plain English these people were going to get cancer regardless of
treatment.
Jim Chinnis - 27 Jul 2007 03:46 GMT
James216440@yahoo.com wrote in part:

>> MarilynMann <ma...@comcast.net> wrote in part:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>In plain English these people were going to get cancer regardless of
>treatment.

Actually, pretty much the same arguments apply to stroke and myocardial
infarct. The conditions for those things were laid down over a lifetime. The
fact that statins can change the rate of their occurence in just a few years
is astonishing.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
bigvince - 27 Jul 2007 04:38 GMT
On Jul 26, 8:34 pm, James216...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > MarilynMann <ma...@comcast.net> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> In plain English these people were going to get cancer regardless of
> treatment.

Unfortunately the latest study finds a significant link
 "
Conclusions: Risk of statin-associated elevated liver enzymes or
rhabdomyolysis is not related to the magnitude of LDL-C lowering.
However, the risk of cancer is significantly associated with lower
achieved LDL-C levels. These findings suggest that drug- and dose-
specific effects are more important determinants of liver and muscle
toxicity than magnitude of LDL-C lowering. Furthermore, the
cardiovascular benefits of low achieved levels of LDL-C may in part
be
offset by an increased risk of cancer.   http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/content/short/50/5/409

Sometimes the science seems to get in the way.
   Thanks Vince
David Rind - 27 Jul 2007 11:53 GMT
> On Jul 26, 8:34 pm, James216...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>  Sometimes the science seems to get in the way.
>     Thanks Vince

Okay, I'm busy and don't have a lot of time to spend on this, but those
of you posting are all missing why this was not a major article.

This study did not find an association between statins and cancer. There
have been enormous meta-analyses of randomized trials finding no
association between statins and cancer.

This study reports an association between achieved LDL and rates of
cancer. First, that is not randomized trial evidence, it is
observational evidence, even if gathered in the context of randomized
trials (yes, I know this is confusing; it's also correct). Second, this
study looked for associations between lots of different things and
achieved LDL and claims to have found a link to cancer. This might be an
interesting exploratory analysis if we didn't *already* have the
analyses of the randomized trials showing no link to cancer.

For those of you concerned about these results, how do you reconcile
worrying about statins and cancer with the fact that patients taking
statins have the same rates of cancer as those taking placebo?

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

bigvince - 27 Jul 2007 13:46 GMT
> > On Jul 26, 8:34 pm, James216...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> interesting exploratory analysis if we didn't *already* have the
> analyses of the randomized trials showing no link to cancer.

Did not the analyses that you view as view as 'correct' labor under
the same limitations.The fact that something already exist does not
preclude new information from changing our view
ie Vioxx

> For those of you concerned about these results, how do you reconcile
> worrying about statins and cancer with the fact that patients taking
> statins have the same rates of cancer as those taking placebo?

Can you really lump all statins in the same group . several studies
showed a much higher rate of cancer for specific statins than
placebo :and the authors of the study appear concerned

Conclusions: Risk of statin-associated elevated liver enzymes or
rhabdomyolysis is not related to the magnitude of LDL-C lowering.
However, the risk of cancer is significantly associated with lower
achieved LDL-C levels. These findings suggest that drug- and dose-
specific effects are more important determinants of liver and muscle
toxicity than magnitude of LDL-C lowering. Furthermore, the
cardiovascular benefits of low achieved levels of LDL-C may in part
be
offset by an increased risk of cancer.

Thanks Vince
MarilynMann - 27 Jul 2007 14:18 GMT
> Okay, I'm busy and don't have a lot of time to spend on this, but those
> of you posting are all missing why this was not a major article.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> worrying about statins and cancer with the fact that patients taking
> statins have the same rates of cancer as those taking placebo?

David,

Your points are well taken.  However, I am not sure that it has been
established that there are no unfavorable effects from low LDL levels
or no beneficial effects from high LDL levels.  For example, a study
was done tracing families with FH back into the 19th century.  They
found that the mortality rate of the people with FH in the 19th
century and early 20th century was not higher than the general
population.  They don't actually know the reason, but it is possible
that high LDL levels provide some protection against infectious
disease, which would have been more prevalent in the 19th century.
Other things that cause heart disease, such as smoking and
hypertension, were probably less prevalent.

I am not too worried about any of this, as long as these very low LDL
targets are applied to people who are at high risk.  The devil is in
the details, of course . . .

Marilyn

BMJ. 2001 Apr 28;322(7293):1019-23.  Links
Mortality over two centuries in large pedigree with familial
hypercholesterolaemia: family tree mortality study.Sijbrands EJ,
Westendorp RG, Defesche JC, de Meier PH, Smelt AH, Kastelein JJ.
Department of Vascular Medicine and General Internal Medicine,
Academic Medical Centre, Meibergdreef 9, 1105 AZ Amsterdam,
Netherlands. mrexpert@euronet.nl

OBJECTIVE: To estimate all cause mortality from untreated familial
hypercholesterolaemia free from selection for coronary artery disease.
DESIGN: Family tree mortality study. SETTING: Large pedigree in
Netherlands traced back to a single pair of ancestors in the 19th
century. Subjects: All members of pedigree aged over 20 years with 0.5
probability of carrying a mutation for familial hypercholesterolaemia.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE: All cause mortality. RESULTS: A total of 70
deaths took place among 250 people analysed for 6950 person years.
Mortality was not increased in carriers of the mutation during the
19th and early 20th century; it rose after 1915, reached its maximum
between 1935 and 1964 (standardised mortality ratio 1.78, 95%
confidence interval 1.13 to 2.76; P=0.003), and fell thereafter.
Mortality differed significantly between two branches of the pedigree
(relative risk 3.26, 95% confidence interval 1.74 to 6.11; P=0.001).
CONCLUSIONS: Risk of death varies significantly among patients with
familial hypercholesterolaemia. This large variability over time and
between branches of the pedigree points to a strong interaction with
environmental factors. Future research is required to identify
patients with familial hypercholesterolaemia who are at extreme risk
and need early and vigorous preventive measures.

PMID: 11325764 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
MarilynMann - 27 Jul 2007 16:13 GMT
> This study did not find an association between statins and cancer. There
> have been enormous meta-analyses of randomized trials finding no
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> worrying about statins and cancer with the fact that patients taking
> statins have the same rates of cancer as those taking placebo?

Thinking about this more, I am unclear as to how randomized trials of
statins can ever decide whether low LDL levels have any effect on
cancer.  How can you separate the effect of the low LDL from whatever
other effects the statin has?  That would go for other LDL-lowering
drugs also.

Statins are thought to benefit patients with heart failure, in spite
of observational evidence of higher mortality in heart failure
patients with lower LDL.

I think this just goes to show that with any LDL-lowering medication,
we need to look at the effect on total mortality.  I don't see how
else to handle this issue.

Marilyn
Jim Chinnis - 27 Jul 2007 16:58 GMT
MarilynMann <mannm@comcast.net> wrote in part:

>> This study did not find an association between statins and cancer. There
>> have been enormous meta-analyses of randomized trials finding no
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
>Marilyn

Statins have been the only way to induce very low LDLs. So, you are correct
that randomized trials of statins are unlikely to be able to separate out
the effect of LDL from other effects of the statin. As far as I know, the
other agents that lower LDL do not lower it to the levels statins do. Note
also that new approaches like Zetia haven't been tested in the kinds of
hard-endpoint trials that statins have.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
MarilynMann - 27 Jul 2007 17:51 GMT
> Statins have been the only way to induce very low LDLs. So, you are correct
> that randomized trials of statins are unlikely to be able to separate out
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> hard-endpoint trials that statins have.
> --

There is an ongoing trial comparing ezetimibe/simvastatin v.
simvastatin in people with acute coronary syndrome.

"This is a randomized, active-control, double-blind study of subjects
with stabilized high-risk acute coronary syndrome (ACS). The primary
objective is to evaluate the clinical benefit of Ezetimibe/Simvastatin
Combination 10/40 (single tablet, under the brand VYTORIN in the
United States) compared with Simvastatin 40 mg. Clinical benefit will
be defined as the reduction in the risk of the occurrence of the
composite endpoint of CV death, major coronary events, and stroke."

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00202878?order=14

Marilyn
Jim Chinnis - 27 Jul 2007 18:23 GMT
MarilynMann <mannm@comcast.net> wrote in part:

>> Statins have been the only way to induce very low LDLs. So, you are correct
>> that randomized trials of statins are unlikely to be able to separate out
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>Marilyn

Yes. This is a great example of marketing a new drug before there are data
showing it works. And even so, returning to the context of this thread, the
ongoing trial isn't looking for reductions in mortality from any cause, only
CV mortality.

So those who believe that cancer rates soar when LDL is reduced are going to
be disappointed to see that further LDL lowering by Zetia may (or may not!)
have an effect on CV endpoints but there will be insufficient power to say
whether the additional drug (and possibly the additional LDL depression)
increases (or decreases) cancer rates. Or maybe they'll be happy, since it
will still be possible to speculate or drag up selected studies that seem to
support their views.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
MarilynMann - 27 Jul 2007 18:50 GMT
> Yes. This is a great example of marketing a new drug before there are data
> showing it works. And even so, returning to the context of this thread, the
> ongoing trial isn't looking for reductions in mortality from any cause, only
> CV mortality.

We discussed this before back in April.  David had this to say:

Notice that they do not seem to have included all-cause mortality in
the primary
endpoint. I would view that as concerning, but the study will
certainly
report the effect on all-cause mortality allowing some judgment to be
made about benefits and harms.

Marilyn
MarilynMann - 27 Jul 2007 19:09 GMT
Here's a summary of some other ongoing trials involving ezetimibe:

http://www.nature.com/ncpcardio/journal/v3/n12/fig_tab/ncpcardio0711_T3.html

Marilyn
MarilynMann - 27 Jul 2007 19:53 GMT
> We discussed this before back in April.  David had this to say:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> report the effect on all-cause mortality allowing some judgment to be
> made about benefits and harms.

When I read something like this, I have to wonder if doctors are more
genteel than lawyers.  If I were discussing something questionable at
work and said I viewed it as "concerning," people I work with would
think I had lost my mind.  I'll leave to your imagination what wording
I *would* use.

Marilyn
Susan - 27 Jul 2007 20:13 GMT
>>We discussed this before back in April.  David had this to say:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Marilyn

ACK, you hit on one of my pet language peeves!  "Concerning" isn't a
real word, "architect" is not a verb, nor is there a verb "to ongo."

Don't even get me started on "impact" as a verb and "low and behold" or
"for all intensive purposes" and plurals with an apostrophe before the 'S'.

Susan
MarilynMann - 27 Jul 2007 20:40 GMT
>  "Concerning" isn't a real word, "architect" is not a verb, nor is there a verb "to ongo."

"Concerning" as a form of the verb "concern" is in my dictionary.  One
of the meanings of "concern" is "to cause anxiety or uneasiness in; to
trouble."

I think you're right about "architect" and "ongo" used as verbs.

Marilyn
James216440@yahoo.com - 28 Jul 2007 03:48 GMT
> On Jul 26, 8:34 pm, James216...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>  Sometimes the science seems to get in the way.
>     Thanks Vince

Science is not in the way at all.  Significantly associated does not
in any way either suggest causation nor even say that the increase in
cancer rate is statistically significant, which it is not.

For example there is a strong correlation between fatal heart attack
rates and total tax rates in the country of occupancy.  Are you going
to try to tell me politicians cause heart attacks?

Only someone who knows very little about cancer and latency would even
consider looking at such short term studies as any indication at all
of causation.  Even hot carcinogens do not act this fast unless the
dose is out of sight.  We all know that statins are not hot
carcinogens by any means.

Now change the exposure time to 30 years and you probably would see
statin induced cancers.  After all, we do know they all cause cancer
in mice at approximately the same plasma levels we use in human
treatments.

But if it takes 30 years is it really important?  Maybe if you are 30
but not if you are 60 when you start the statin.
bigvince - 30 Jul 2007 14:47 GMT
On Jul 27, 10:48 pm, James216...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Science is not in the way at all.  Significantly associated does not
> in any way either suggest causation nor even say that the increase in
> cancer rate is statistically significant, which it is not.

It certainly does not show that statins do not increase the risk of
cancer. From the study

Conclusions: Risk of statin-associated elevated liver enzymes or
rhabdomyolysis is not related to the magnitude of LDL-C lowering.
However, the risk of cancer is significantly associated with lower
achieved LDL-C levels. These findings suggest that drug- and dose-
specific effects are more important determinants of liver and muscle
toxicity than magnitude of LDL-C lowering. Furthermore, the
cardiovascular benefits of low achieved levels of LDL-C may in part
be
offset by an increased risk of cancer. '

These authors suggest that statin use may indeed increase the risk of
cancer.

> For example there is a strong correlation between fatal heart attack
> rates and total tax rates in the country of occupancy.  Are you going
> to try to tell me politicians cause heart attacks?

This does not seem particularly relevant

> Only someone who knows very little about cancer and latency would even
> consider looking at such short term studies as any indication at all
> of causation.  Even hot carcinogens do not act this fast unless the
> dose is out of sight.  We all know that statins are not hot
> carcinogens by any means.

Actually this reasoning argues against the original studies that
cleared statins as a group of causing cancer.Some individually studies
however showed higher cancer rates for some statins.by your on logic
the earlier studies would have had  to short a time to show increase
rates of cancer.In fact any such  correlation based on low dose statin
use would argue against higher doses because dose is indeed a key in
this regard..

This study does not" prove "statins cause cancer it also certainly
raises serious question about previous studies showing  they do not,

Thanks Vince
Jim Chinnis - 30 Jul 2007 16:25 GMT
bigvince <Vince.Miraglia@gmail.com> wrote in part:

>On Jul 27, 10:48 pm, James216...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
>This does not seem particularly relevant

It's relevant as an analogy. The study doesn't show that low achieved LDL
causes cancer, only that it is associated with it in the study.

>> Only someone who knows very little about cancer and latency would even
>> consider looking at such short term studies as any indication at all
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>use would argue against higher doses because dose is indeed a key in
>this regard..

Statins have never been "cleared" as causes of cancer.

>This study does not" prove "statins cause cancer it also certainly
>raises serious question about previous studies showing  they do not,
>
>Thanks Vince
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
James216440@yahoo.com - 30 Jul 2007 16:34 GMT
> On Jul 27, 10:48 pm, James216...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> Thanks Vince

Sorry Vince but there simply have been no human studies that show
anything at all about statins causing cancer.  All human studies to
date are simply too short duration to have any meaning at all.  This
meta analysis simply does not provide any meaningful information about
cancer causation at all.

The studies that show statins cause cancer are all done in rodents.
They show that to cause statistically meaningful excess cancers you
need to feed the test substance for almost the normal life span of the
rodent.  These tests were done at doses that gave blood plasma levels
of roughly the same level as we shoot for in treating humans
theraputically.

A normal translation of what these rodent data would mean to humans is
zero excess cancers in treatment times of up to 20 years.

Cancer is mainly a disease of the very young and the very old.  There
are excellent immunilogical reasons for it to work this way.  But it
partly is also due to the needed exposure time to accumulate the
genetic damage required to generate a cancer.  Anything that causes so
much genetic damage that it might cause cancers fast kills the
organism before cancer can develop.  So carcinogens are often either
fairly mild in overall toxicology or fed at very, very low doses to
avoid acute tox effects.  These are the only ways you can keep the
organism alive long enough to allow a very complex chain of events to
happen that result in cancer.

Another way to look at cancer is at a given dose the incidence is not
linear with time.  You have a long induction period, often called
latency, followed by a rapidly increasing incidence.  On a plot you
have a curve that follows zero incidence for a long time then the plot
fairly sharply breaks up after the induction period.  This is not at
all uncommon for a lot of chronic toxicology effects in fact.

Short term studies test for accute effects and simply say nothing
about chronic effects.  So when you see something that is well
understood to be a chronic effect, such as cancer, show up in excess
in short term studies you can be sure that the chronic effect was not
caused by the short term treatment.  All that happened was the short
term treatment released a long term effect that was going to happen
without treatment but a little latter in time.

In the statin studies in question it would be interesting to take all
smokers and recent ex smokers out of the data.  It is entirely
possible that the cancers seen are significantly just smoking related
cancers when you consider the age of the test group even though the
report says there was no organ specificity.  If such a relationship
does exist the small increase in cancer seen in these short term
studies may in large part simply be smoking related cancers that
showed up a few years before you would expect them to show up.  As
small as the numbers were it would be hard to see such cancers as
organ related in the test group in the raw data.  The incidence
numbers are simply too small for statistics to be able to spot
meaningful relationships in organ specificity.

Rest assured there is nothing at all in these short studies that even
hints that statins are causing excess cancers.  Not a bit more then my
example of politicians causing heart attacks which you seem unable to
understand.  It is simply a very relevant and strong statistical
association that demonstrates the difference between association and
causation.  Life and medicine is full of examples where association is
not at all related to causation.

If your hang up happens to be that short term studies of statin
treated humans show an increase in cancer rate the answer is yes they
do in some cases.  The study in question say so.  All I am saying is
this does not in any way show the excess cancers are caused by statin
treatment.  And there is every reason to believe they are not caused
by statin treatment.  The animal test data and everything we know
about cancer causes would say the short term excess of cancer is not
caused by statin treatment.

The animal data also says we should expect to see statins cause cancer
on long term treatment of humans.
 
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