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Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / June 2007The role drug companies play in the education of you doctor
Today's New York Times had an interesting op- ed piece on the role drug companies play in the continuing education of your physician.Written by Daniel Carlat, a professor at Tufts Medical School; it details the myriad conflicts of interest that have arisen from this connection and concludes that..... "Doctors, in turn, would be encouraged to seek medical education from sources that are not financed by drug companies. A renewed commitment to unbiased education would allow doctors to learn about drug risks sooner. This would be good for doctors, and even better for their patients.' source "Diagnosis; Conflict of Interest" 6/13/07 read full story http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/13/opinion/13carlat.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin Thanks Vince > Today's New York Times had an interesting op- ed piece on the role > drug companies play in the continuing education of your [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > read full story http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/13/opinion/13carlat.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin > Thanks Vince It is unlikely that "unbiased" continuing medical education (CME) courses would spend more time on the unpopular subject of possible adverse reactions to medications. Both patients and their doctors can simply read the package insert of prescribed medications rather than attend CME courses to learn about "drug risks." Indeed, it is the usual policy for folks to sign at the pharmacy indicating that they are aware of all "drug risks" presumably after they have read the package insert and/or have received counseling from their pharmacist. Since this topic is being raised on the heels of the Avandia scare, this discussion is on-topic for ASD, which will receive a copy of this along with sci.med. It remains wiser to lose the visceral adipose tissue (VAT) thereby curing the metabolic syndrome (MetS) that undergirds type-2 diabetes and thereby also possibly curing the diabetes. This would obviate the need for blood glucose lowering medications, which all have the potential for those "drug risks" that no one likes but everyone has to accept in ever increasing amounts as people continue to gain VAT because the overeating caused by satan's lie that "hunger is bad." May GOD bless you in HIS mighty way making you hungrier than ever. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://ABChung.LiveJournal.com "Unlike the 2PD-OMER Approach, weight loss diets can't be combined with well-balanced diets." http://HeartMDPhD.com/Love/TheTruth On Jun 13, 4:04 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote: > > Today's New York Times had an interesting op- ed piece on the role > > drug companies play in the continuing education of your [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > this discussion is on-topic for ASD, which will receive a copy of this > along with sci.med. As the op-ed piece in the times noted .... "For example, GlaxoSmithKline footed the bill for dozens of educational courses intended to emphasize the benefits of Avandia over other drugs. An influential Internet-based educational program paid for by the company focused on specific studies that highlighted Avandia's advantages without discussing one of the drug's most worrisome side effects, increased levels of the lipids implicated in heart disease. Avandia's chief competitor, a drug from Takeda Pharmaceuticals called Actos, improves lipid levels but was hardly mentioned. When GlaxoSmithKline's program did cite Actos, it did so tepidly. The information in the course was presented by noted diabetes academics paid by GlaxoSmithKline and other drug companies. " souce 'Diagnosis conflict of interest' NYT 6/13/07 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/13/opinion/13carlat.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin I was working in the lab, late one night when my eyes beheld an eerie sight bigvince <Vince.Miraglia@gmail.com> , from the slab, began to rise and suddenly, to my surprise, wrote: > On Jun 13, 4:04 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/13/opinion/13carlat.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin If that is what passes for CME in America, it's little wonder that people like Andrew Chung get away with passing themselves off as qualified surgeons for years at a stretch before being caught out. > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/13/opinion/13carlat.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin What you cite does not refute the fact that the information about adverse effects is readily available to both physicans and their patients outside of on-line CME courses and that getting rid of these pharma-sponsored CME courses is unlikely to motivate the creation of CME courses on the unpopular topic of drug side effects. It remains wiser to instead redirect one's energies toward losing the visceral adipose tissue (VAT) thereby curing metabolic syndrome (MetS) and obviating the need for these medications in the first place with their ever present risk of side effects. May GOD bless you in HIS mighty way making you hungrier than ever. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://ABChung.LiveJournal.com "Unlike the 2PD-OMER Approach, weight loss diets can't be combined with well-balanced diets." http://HeartMDPhD.com/Love/TheTruth On Jun 13, 6:12 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote: > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > and obviating the need for these medications in the first place with > their ever present risk of side effects. First let me agree with you that it is wise to maintain optimal weight and eliminate visceral fat. Many people ;particularly those with diabetes or MetS will do this most efficiently with a low carb or a low glycemic diet. Second if you add to that a good excersize program, optimal amounts of Vitamin d and the replacement of "bad fats with high quality omega 3 fatty acids ' you could have a large effect on diabetes and other diseases.. Is it really realistic to expect a drug makers to stress and emphasise this. No .It is much better to have all education done by neutral party's. The safest and best way to control both diabetes is diet and exercise; it seems that many classes of drugs used to control this condition have not worked as expected.To expect anyone to be both salesperson and teacher in these matters sets the stage for horrendous consequences. Thanks Vince > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > diabetes or MetS will do this most efficiently with a low carb or a > low glycemic diet. Wiser to simply eat less down to the optimal amount. Dieting has not been shown to help folks achieve significant (>20% bodyweight) lasting(>5 yrs) weight loss. > Second if you add to that a good excersize program, > optimal amounts of Vitamin d and the replacement of "bad fats with > high quality omega 3 fatty acids ' you could have a large effect on > diabetes and other diseases.. ...not if the VAT is not lost. > Is it really realistic to expect a drug > makers to stress and emphasise this. No .It is much better to have all > education done by neutral party's. Education about preventative medicine is being done by neutral parties: http://TheHealthFair.com > The safest and best way to control both diabetes is diet and exercise; It is wiser to cure the underlying metabolic syndrome (MetS) of type-2 diabetes, which is the most common type of diabetes, by losing the VAT. > it seems that many classes of > drugs used to control this condition have not worked as expected.To > expect anyone to be both salesperson and teacher in these matters sets > the stage for horrendous consequences. The world would have you believe that type-2 diabetes can not be cured and so many in ASD believe there is no cure for type-2 diabetes. The bariatric surgeons have witnessed cures when folks lose their VAT after bariatric surgery and are presently boasting that their procedures cure type-2 diabetes. Bottomline: Lose the VAT --> cure the MetS --> possibly cure the type-2 diabetes. All those who will follow from ASD decrying this will simply reveal that they have been brainwashed and remain enslaved by satan's lie that "hunger is bad." May GOD bless you in HIS mighty way making you hungrier than ever. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://ABChung.LiveJournal.com "Unlike the 2PD-OMER Approach, weight loss diets can't be combined with well-balanced diets." http://HeartMDPhD.com/Love/TheTruth "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <love11@thetruth.com> strained and strained finally something went 'plop'. This is what it smelled like: >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: >>> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > > http://TheHealthFair.com Does a stethoscope go with that orange jumpsuit? The NYT's OP Ed writer says ... "The solution could hardly be simpler: any continuing medical education that is paid for by the drug industry should not be accredited. Drug companies could still pay for any educational event, article or pamphlet they choose, but their courses and materials would no longer bear the imprimatur and implied credibility of accreditation. Doctors, in turn, would be encouraged to seek medical education from sources that are not financed by drug companies." _________________________ If drug companies did not underwrite CME courses, the CME offerings would be spare and likely far fewer. The educational quality of such drug-company sponsored CME courses -- in most cases -- is also determined by an Advisory Board of physicans recognized as academic opinion leaders in their field of expertise, eg, Anthony Gotto, MD, is Chair of the National Lipid Education Council (an industry-sponsored initiative created by the same communications company that produces the National Diabetes Education Initiative). In such cases, the integrity of the industry-sponsored CME material is strongly determined by such physicians of world-class expertise as Anthony Gotto, MD, Dean, Cornell Medical School. The practice needs improvement; CME should be more balanced, as it is regulated, in theory. But don't blame the industry, and demand that they stop all CME initiatives. Many are first-rate educational initiatives -- which need to maintain their educational integrity, it is true, through constant vigilance from all involved, as well as critics who serve as watch dogs. Further, if industry did not sponsor well-produced educational modules produced by professional writers, the quality of CME and the accessibility of the material likely would decline sharply -- in the end, perhaps compromising the education of physicians in a manner just as detrimental. Financial Disclosure: Twittering has worked for and received income from The National Lipid Education Council and The National Diabetes Education Initiative; presently, she receives no income at all, in any form, and is filing a physical abuse complaint with Bellevue Hospital, in New York City. > The NYT's OP Ed writer says ... > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > form, and is filing a physical abuse complaint with Bellevue Hospital, > in New York City. The op-ed piece also notes that......" The chore of teaching doctors how to practice medicine has been handed to the pharmaceutical industry. As a result, dangerous side effects are rarely on the curriculum." It notes that the Accreditation Council for Continuing Medical Education sets the rules on CME and those rules forbid direct payment from industrey to doctors it further notes a...... "loophole that allows drug companies to circumvent the regulations. They hire for- profit "medical education communication companies" to organize the courses." why is this important because it create a system in which CME programs whereby " content is rarely developed by the identified experts. Instead, it is developed by the undisclosed communication company, which is paid by the sponsoring pharmaceutical company.".....according to the piece even..... "The major organizations in diabetes education, like the National Diabetes Education Initiative, offer dozens of continuing medical education courses on diabetes that are free to doctors and paid for by drug companies. Predictably, each course focuses on the advantages of the sponsor's product and minimizes discussion of dangerous side effects. "......The fact is no one can be both a sales agent and a teacher at the same time. Anyone interested should read the complete editorial http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/13/opinion/13carlat.html?th&emc=th > > The NYT's OP Ed writer says ... > > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > how to practice medicine has been handed to the pharmaceutical > industry. Actually, experience remains the main route by which practicing doctors continue to learn how to improve the way they help their patients. Next would be from each other. The best doctors effect cures so that their patients come off medications. Therefore, drug companies exert very little influence on the education of the best doctors. May GOD bless you in HIS mighty way making you hungrier than ever. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://ABChung.LiveJournal.com "Unlike the 2PD-OMER Approach, weight loss diets can't be combined with well-balanced diets." http://HeartMDPhD.com/Love/TheTruth On Jun 14, 2:28 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote: > > > The NYT's OP Ed writer says ... > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > Therefore, drug companies exert very little influence on the education > of the best doctors. Did you and other doctors give Vioxx long after the initial reports and studies linking it to an increased risk of heart attacks had been show. Why? Did you ever prescribe Advandia ;would you have if you had known the risk involved if Dr.Nissens work proves valid? A survey conducted after the release of that data showed about 75% of doctors would not.The data used in the NEJM STUDY was old data not new. Dr. Nissen felt it pointed in the wrong direction , Dr. Graham felt the same about Vioxx . information about these drugs both positive and negative was there long before Vioxx was removed or questions where raised about tAdvandia's safety. Your a cardiologist do you understand that Atenolol a widely used drug in hypertension has actually been shown in several meta analysis to increase mortality, to increase diabetes and to only slightly reduce stroke. Yet it is still widely used . The facts are there, CME should help the doctor care for the patient; not help the maker market his product.The willingness of the medical profession to allow this conflict does not serve the best interest of the patient. Thanks and God Bless you ;Vince > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > > The NYT's OP Ed writer says ... [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > and studies linking it to an increased risk of heart attacks had been > show. Those who lose their visceral adipose tissue (VAT) by using the 2PD- OMER Approach stop having osteoarthritis. Prior to that NSAIDs have been contraindicated in cardiac patients long before the FDA scrutiny. Limbrel has and continues to serve well as an acceptable prescription GRAS alternative to NSAIDs. > Why? Did you ever prescribe Advandia ; As folks lose their visceral adipose tissue (VAT), they no longer require glucose lowering medications including Avandia to control their hyperglycemia. > would you have if you had > known the risk involved if Dr.Nissens work proves valid? A survey [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > diabetes and to only slightly reduce stroke. Yet it is still widely > used . Not because of CME touting atenolol's superiority over other beta blockers. Atenolol is generic afterall. > The facts are there, CME should help the doctor care for the > patient; not help the maker market his product. You unwisely chose a generic product, atenolol, to argue your point here. There is no marketing of generics. > The willingness of the > medical profession to allow this conflict does not serve the best > interest of the patient. Your focusing your energies on this "conflict of interest" is misdirected. The real harm is coming from what has caused your type-2 diabetes and not from the medications being used to ameliorate the effects of your disease. May GOD bless you in HIS mighty way making you hungrier than ever. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://ABChung.LiveJournal.com "Unlike the 2PD-OMER Approach, weight loss diets can't be combined with well-balanced diets." http://HeartMDPhD.com/Love/TheTruth On Jun 14, 6:30 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <l...@thetruth.com> wrote: > > > medications. > [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > not from the medications being used to ameliorate the effects of your > disease. First I do not have diabetes. Second Cox 2 inhibitors were widely used in people with risk factors for heart disease as were Nsaids. Third atenolol is widely used because it has become an accepted treatment for hypertension; it was marketed when it was developed; and despite evidence that it increases mortality and that it is the least effective and most problematic drug used to treat hypertension; it is still being widely used today.I noticed that you did not answer the question on Advandia. Doctors need to be continually up to date on issues that can have major impact.Many people suffered after cox 2 inhibitors were shown to be dangerous; Lord knows how many may have suffered because of Advandia.As the numbers on atenolol are so bad how many unnecessary stokes occurred; how much unnecessary diabetes. CME programs need to being these facts quickly to physicians. Today many doctors wait until the FDA pulls a drug. These events occur because too many physicians do not take the time to fully understand the drugs they give. CMEs developed by neutral parties would place a more appropriate emphasis on when to discontinue a drug be it Vioxx or Atenolol or some other agent. Thanks Vince ate on > issues that can have major impact.Many people suffered after cox 2 > inhibitors were shown to be dangerous; Many also suffered because they were pulled. I know people from personal experience who to this day want to hunt down the sob who decided they weren't bright enuff to decide for themselves and took away their relief from pain. The do gooders tend to forget about that. > Many also suffered because they were pulled. I know people from > personal experience who to this day want to hunt down the sob who > decided they weren't bright enuff to decide for themselves and took away > their relief from pain. The do gooders tend to forget about that. Those same people; if they or a member of thier family had a heart attack or stroke from a cox 2 inhibitor would be the first to complain and sue, Actually celebrex is still available Thanks Vince > satan via a sockpuppet (demon) wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > attack or stroke from a cox 2 inhibitor would be the first to complain > and sue, Actually celebrex is still available Actually, cox 2 inhibitors and other NSAIDs do not cause either heart attacks or strokes but rather antagonize the protective anti-platelet effects of aspirin. May GOD bless you in HIS mighty way making you hungrier than ever. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://ABChung.LiveJournal.com "Unlike the 2PD-OMER Approach, weight loss diets can't be combined with well-balanced diets." http://HeartMDPhD.com/Love/TheTruth On Jun 15, 2:34 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote: > Actually, cox 2 inhibitors and other NSAIDs do not cause either heart > attacks or strokes but rather antagonize the protective anti-platelet > effects of aspirin. Cox 2 inhibitors and Nsaids increase the risk of heart attack and stroke relative to placebo. They also increase the risk at different rates. There is some thinking in the medical community that giving aspirin with nsaids might reduce thier risk . But again nsaids increase the risk of event as do cox 2 inhibitors. Thanks Vince In line with the main thread......Pennsylviania starts program for physicians. From 'Pennsylvania Program Aims To Counter Influence Of Pharmaceutical Representatives With 'Academic Detailers'' 6/15/07 Medical News Today http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=74161&nfid=rssfeeds Right in line with this thread.......... '"The Philadelphia Inquirer on Tuesday examined a Pennsylvania program that pays "academic" detailers to "give doctors objective information about the cost and benefits of all kinds of treatments, including diet and exercise." Under the program, called the Independent Drug Information Service, academic detailers search through scientific studies and create reports to inform doctors about the best prescribing methods. According to the Inquirer, Jerry Avorn, a Harvard University internist and drug expert, developed the program when he "realized pharmaceutical companies were outclassing scientists when it came to telling doctors about new drugs and changing behavior." "........... Read full story at link Thanks vince > According to the Inquirer, Jerry Avorn, a Harvard University internist > and drug expert, developed the program when he "realized > pharmaceutical companies were outclassing scientists when it came to > telling doctors about new drugs and changing behavior." "........... > Read full story at link Thanks vince Be interesting to see if that develops as a real alternative, just an anti-group that thinks if the Pharm say white it MUST be black, or one based on the 2nd rule of journalism 2. Be balanced. No matter what anybody says, find somebody to say the opposite. If a scientist claims to have a cure for cancer, find somebody who says cancer does not exist. If a man says "My name is Fred," make sure you find somebody who says "No, your name is Diane." Etc. > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Cox 2 inhibitors and Nsaids increase the risk of heart attack and > stroke relative to placebo. In a population where most folks with osteoarthritis have CV risk factors which require daily aspirin for heart attack/stroke prevention. > They also increase the risk at different > rates. There is some thinking in the medical community that giving > aspirin with nsaids might reduce thier risk . Incorrect. NSAIDs antagonize aspirin's cardioprotective effects. > But again nsaids > increase the risk of event as do cox 2 inhibitors. ... in a population where most folks (especially those with OA) are taking a daily aspirin for heart attack/stroke prevention. May GOD bless you in HIS mighty way making you hungrier than ever. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://ABChung.LiveJournal.com "Unlike the 2PD-OMER Approach, weight loss diets can't be combined with well-balanced diets" http://HeartMDPhD.com/Love/TheTruth > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > > First I do not have diabetes. My apologies for thinking that you did because of your interest in Avandia. > Second Cox 2 inhibitors were widely used > in people with risk factors for heart disease as were Nsaids. COX-2 inhibitors are NSAIDs. Known cardiovascular disease has been a relative contraindication for all NSAIDs except aspirin. > Third > atenolol is widely used because it has become an accepted treatment > for hypertension; it was marketed when it was developed; and despite > evidence that it increases mortality and that it is the least > effective and most problematic drug used to treat hypertension; it is > still being widely used today. This would be despite ongoing marketing of newer beta blockers which are more expensive because their patents remain in force. > I noticed that you did not answer the > question on Advandia. Avandia has not been on my list of routinely prescribed medications. GOD shaped me to be a cardiologist afterall with an interest in helping folks get rid of their VAT to cure their MetS thereby obviating the need for meds like Avandia. > Doctors need to be continually up to date on > issues that can have major impact.Many people suffered after cox 2 > inhibitors were shown to be dangerous; The suffering started with the osteoarthritis. > Lord knows how many may have > suffered because of Advandia. The suffering started with the type-2 diabetes. > As the numbers on atenolol are so bad how > many unnecessary stokes occurred; There would be more strokes without the BP control achieved in some folks with atenolol. > how much unnecessary diabetes. It is overeating and not atenolol that causes type-2 diabetes. > CME > programs need to being these facts quickly to physicians. Actually most physicians are aware that atenolol has the worst track record of all the beta blockers for reducing CV events compared to more expensive newer beta blockers. CME courses sponsored by companies that make these newer beta blockers have not been remiss in pointing out that these newer beta blockers are better based on clinical research funded by them. However, atenolol is a one-a-day generic beta blocker that is effective in lowering blood pressure in the trenches so that one reason there has not be a prescribing change is that many practicing physicians believe what is presented at these CME courses touting the newer more expensive beta blockers is hype. This observation simply serves to illustrate how the impact that CME courses have on the prescribing patterns of physicians is somewhat exaggerated. May GOD bless you in HIS mighty way making you hungrier than ever. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://ABChung.LiveJournal.com "Unlike the 2PD-OMER Approach, weight loss diets can't be combined with well-balanced diets." http://HeartMDPhD.com/Love/TheTruth > On Jun 14, 6:30 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <l...@thetruth.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >> > First I do not have diabetes. Then take your sh.t out of alt.support.diabetes. It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in article <1181860213.344699.197650@a26g2000pre.googlegroups.com>: >Those who lose their visceral adipose tissue (VAT) by using the 2PD- >OMER Approach stop having osteoarthritis. Prior to that NSAIDs have >been contraindicated in cardiac patients long before the FDA >scrutiny. Limbrel has and continues to serve well as an acceptable >prescription GRAS alternative to NSAIDs. So are you now claiming that the Two Pound Diet cures **OSTEOarthritis**? That will sure cut down on the numbers of hip, knee, and shoulder replacements being done. I hope you will publish this discovery in a peer reviewed journal, since it is generally believed that osteoarthritis is incurable; no other practitioners seem to know how to regrow bone in damaged arthritic joints. Or did you mean the autoimmune arthroid diseases? Further, Limbrel apparently is no substitute for the more modern and much more effective DMARDs (disease modifying antirheumatic drugs); NSAIDs only treat the inflammation and resultant pain--the tissue deterioration continues. Do you have stock in the vendors of Limbrel? You seem to be the only doctor (including nationally recognized rheumatologists) I have ever seen recommending it. It's a prescription *nutrient* preparation, after all (so I suppose it's part of the allotted two pounds per day.  SignatureDon Kirkman > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > So are you now claiming that the Two Pound Diet cures > **OSTEOarthritis**? The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet. Losing the VAT does remove the source of microvascular inflammation that leads to the impairment of chondrocyte function that is part of the pathophysiology of osteoarthritis. > That will sure cut down on the numbers of hip, > knee, and shoulder replacements being done. It would. > I hope you will publish > this discovery in a peer reviewed journal, since it is generally > believed that osteoarthritis is incurable; GOD's will be done and not my will. The glory is all HIS for such cures. HE is the Great Physician afterall. > no other practitioners seem > to know how to regrow bone in damaged arthritic joints. The problem in osteoarthritic joints is regrowing cartilage and not bone. Indeed there is an overgrowth of bone (spurring) in response to the insufficient amount of cartilage. > Or did you mean the autoimmune arthroid diseases? No. > Further, Limbrel apparently is no substitute for the more modern and > much more effective DMARDs (disease modifying antirheumatic drugs); Did not write that Limbrel is a DMARD. > NSAIDs only treat the inflammation and resultant pain--the tissue > deterioration continues. Actually, for osteoarthritis where there is inflammation, the use of Limbrel seems to help with the healing that occurs as VAT is being lost. > Do you have stock in the vendors of Limbrel? No. > You seem to be the only > doctor (including nationally recognized rheumatologists) I have ever > seen recommending it. That will likely change in time. The manufacturers of Limbrel have thus far not spent much to market their product. They have had a lot of overhead costs in rebuilding their Florida manufacturing plant 5 times during the Katrina hurricane season a couple of years ago. They have been in my prayers ever since their trial by storm because their product has been and remains a blessing for many of my osteoarthritic cardiac patients, who would otherwise have been crippled prior to losing all their VAT without the Limbrel. > It's a prescription *nutrient* preparation, after > all (so I suppose it's part of the allotted two pounds per day. Neither medications nor supplements are food. Clearly you remain convicted by the Holy Spirit: http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://ABChung.LiveJournal.com "Unlike the 2PD-OMER Approach, weight loss diets can't be combined with well-balanced diets." http://HeartMDPhD.com/Love/TheTruth It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in article <1181896801.050791.322870@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>: >> So are you now claiming that the Two Pound Diet cures >> **OSTEOarthritis**? >The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet. So we're back to that definition thing; why don't you quote Merriam-Webster for "diet" as you did for "addiction"? >Losing the VAT does remove the source of microvascular inflammation >that leads to the impairment of chondrocyte function that is part of >the pathophysiology of osteoarthritis. >> That will sure cut down on the numbers of hip, >> knee, and shoulder replacements being done. >It would. If it proven to be true. >> I hope you will publish >> this discovery in a peer reviewed journal, since it is generally >> believed that osteoarthritis is incurable; >GOD's will be done and not my will. Easy out. >> no other practitioners seem >> to know how to regrow bone in damaged arthritic joints. >The problem in osteoarthritic joints is regrowing cartilage and not >bone. Yes, I miswrote; regrowing cartilage is almost as problematical as regrowing bone. >Indeed there is an overgrowth of bone (spurring) in response to the >insufficient amount of cartilage. There may be, but it is not a given. There also may be bone spurring with intact cartilage but chronic strain on the attachment of ligaments to the bone. >> Further, Limbrel apparently is no substitute for the more modern and >> much more effective DMARDs (disease modifying antirheumatic drugs); >Did not write that Limbrel is a DMARD. I was simply noting that you did not mention DMARDs, which have the advantage of changing the disease process, not merely reducing inflammation and pain. >> NSAIDs only treat the inflammation and resultant pain--the tissue >> deterioration continues. >Actually, for osteoarthritis where there is inflammation, the use of >Limbrel seems to help with the healing that occurs as VAT is being >lost. "Seems to" is not a medical term. Any relevant studies? >> Do you have stock in the vendors of Limbrel? >No. >> You seem to be the only >> doctor (including nationally recognized rheumatologists) I have ever >> seen recommending it. >That will likely change in time. >The manufacturers of Limbrel have thus far not spent much to market >their product. They have had a lot of overhead costs in rebuilding >their Florida manufacturing plant 5 times during the Katrina hurricane >season a couple of years ago. >They have been in my prayers ever since their trial by storm because >their product has been and remains a blessing for many of my >osteoarthritic cardiac patients, who would otherwise have been >crippled prior to losing all their VAT without the Limbrel. Thanks for making it clear that you have a direct interest in Limbrel. That explains your repeated suggestions that someone try it. SignatureDon Kirkman > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > So we're back to that definition thing; why don't you quote > Merriam-Webster for "diet" as you did for "addiction"? Have done that in the past already. You may check the Google archives. > >Losing the VAT does remove the source of microvascular inflammation > >that leads to the impairment of chondrocyte function that is part of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > If it proven to be true. The proof is in the pudding as is commonly said. > >> I hope you will publish > >> this discovery in a peer reviewed journal, since it is generally [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Easy out. Easy for those who are truthful. > >> no other practitioners seem > >> to know how to regrow bone in damaged arthritic joints. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Yes, I miswrote; regrowing cartilage is almost as problematical as > regrowing bone. Capillaries can regrow once the inflammatory cytokines are gone. > >Indeed there is an overgrowth of bone (spurring) in response to the > >insufficient amount of cartilage. > > There may be, but it is not a given. There also may be bone spurring > with intact cartilage but chronic strain on the attachment of ligaments > to the bone. Such chronic strain typically does not happen when there truly is intact cartilage. > >> Further, Limbrel apparently is no substitute for the more modern and > >> much more effective DMARDs (disease modifying antirheumatic drugs); [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > advantage of changing the disease process, not merely reducing > inflammation and pain. It would be losing the VAT that would be a "disease modifying" course of action. > >> NSAIDs only treat the inflammation and resultant pain--the tissue > >> deterioration continues. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > "Seems to" is not a medical term. Any relevant studies? This would be clinical experience. > >> Do you have stock in the vendors of Limbrel? > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Thanks for making it clear that you have a direct interest in Limbrel. Only having a financial interest would invalidate my suggestion that cardiac patients suffering from osteoarthritis consider asking their physician(s) about Limbrel. At this point in time, there really is no other viable "cardiac-safe" osteoarthritis medication with a side-effect profile that is comparable to placebo. May GOD bless you in HIS mighty way making you hungrier than ever. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://ABChung.LiveJournal.com "Unlike the 2PD-OMER Approach, weight loss diets can't be combined with well-balanced diets" http://HeartMDPhD.com/Love/TheTruth It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in article <1181941090.730946.173720@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>: >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: >> >> So are you now claiming that the Two Pound Diet cures >> >> **OSTEOarthritis**? >> >The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet. >> So we're back to that definition thing; why don't you quote >> Merriam-Webster for "diet" as you did for "addiction"? >Have done that in the past already. You may check the Google >archives. So how do you conclude it's not a diet? M_W calls a diet " 1 a - food and drink regularly provided or consumed b - habitual nourishment c- the kind and amount of food prescribed for a person or animal for a special reason 2 - something provided esp. habitually" >> >> I hope you will publish >> >> this discovery in a peer reviewed journal, since it is generally >> >> believed that osteoarthritis is incurable; >> >GOD's will be done and not my will. >> Easy out. >Easy for those who are truthful. That must make it hard for you. >Such chronic strain typically does not happen when there truly is >intact cartilage. Does plantar fasciitis and resulting bone spurs involve loss of cartilage? If so why does the foot return to normal when the spurs and strain are normalized? [. . .] >> >> You seem to be the only >> >> doctor (including nationally recognized rheumatologists) I have ever >> >> seen recommending it. >> >That will likely change in time. >> >The manufacturers of Limbrel have thus far not spent much to market >> >their product. They have had a lot of overhead costs in rebuilding >> >their Florida manufacturing plant 5 times during the Katrina hurricane >> >season a couple of years ago. >> >They have been in my prayers ever since their trial by storm because >> >their product has been and remains a blessing for many of my >> >osteoarthritic cardiac patients, who would otherwise have been >> >crippled prior to losing all their VAT without the Limbrel. >> Thanks for making it clear that you have a direct interest in Limbrel. > >Only having a financial interest would invalidate my suggestion that >cardiac patients suffering from osteoarthritis consider asking their >physician(s) about Limbrel. That doesn't follow from the facts. SignatureDon Kirkman > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > " 1 a - food and drink regularly provided or consumed The 2PD-OMER Approach is not "food and drink regularly provided or consumed." > b - habitual nourishment The 2PD-OMER Approach is not "habitual nourishment." > c- the kind **and** amount of food prescribed for a person or > animal for a special reason **emphasis** added. The 2PD-OMER Approach specifies only the amount of food to be eaten per day and not the kind of food. > 2 - something provided esp. habitually" The 2PD-OMER Approach is not "something provided esp. habitually" > >> >> I hope you will publish > >> >> this discovery in a peer reviewed journal, since it is generally [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > That must make it hard for you. Erroneous conclusion arising from false assumptions. > >Such chronic strain **typically** does not happen when there truly is > >intact cartilage. **emphasis** added. > Does plantar fasciitis and resulting bone spurs involve loss of > cartilage? If so why does the foot return to normal when the spurs and > strain are normalized? See **emphasis** above. > [. . .] > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > That doesn't follow from the facts. Actually, it does logically follow from the facts. You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor Don whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://ABChung.LiveJournal.com "Unlike the 2PD-OMER Approach, weight loss diets can't be combined with well-balanced diets" http://HeartMDPhD.com/Love/TheTruth >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: >>>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The 2PD-OMER Approach is not "food and drink regularly provided or > consumed." The 2PD-OMER Approach is a figment of a crackpot's demented imagination. >> b - habitual nourishment > > The 2PD-OMER Approach is not "habitual nourishment." The 2PD-OMER Approach is a figment of a crackpot's demented imagination. >> c- the kind **and** amount of food prescribed for a person or >> animal for a special reason [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The 2PD-OMER Approach specifies only the amount of food to be eaten > per day and not the kind of food. The 2PD-OMER Approach is a figment of a crackpot's demented imagination. >> 2 - something provided esp. habitually" > > The 2PD-OMER Approach is not "something provided esp. habitually" The 2PD-OMER Approach is a figment of a crackpot's demented imagination. >>>>>> I hope you will publish >>>>>> this discovery in a peer reviewed journal, since it is generally [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Actually, it does logically follow from the facts. Nothing that you have ever posted follows logically from the facts. You are a lunatic. > You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor Don whom I love > unconditionally. > > Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Jesus may have been a nice guy, very gullible of course (mommy a virgin???) but he, being the object of those poor parenting skills is dead. He won't be coming back any more than any other dead person will be. D.M. > It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in > article <1181941090.730946.173...@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>: [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > - Show quoted text - In that limbrel contains the same substance that naturally occurs in cherries and is a natural anti -inflammatory and has a much better safty profile than either Nsaids or Cox 2 inhibitors which have been shown dispite Dr. Chungs comments to increase the risk of heart attack and stroke .It does seem a good choice for osteoartritis. Also there is pretty good evidence that reducing Vat can help RA patients . This benefit occurs without side effects. FROM "Obesity Adds To The Quality Of Life Burden Of Rheumatoid Arthritis;" Medical news Today; 6/19/07 " The global obesity epidemic has been issued with a further health warning - that obesity exacerbates the quality of life of patients with rheumatoid arthritis (RA"... and the story notes "In a study of 1041 patients with RA, undertaken Diakonhjemmet Hospital, Oslo, obese participants (OB) reported significantly increased ratings for pain and fatigue than normal weight (NW) participants (Pain: AIMS2 OB 5.47 vs. NW 4.53, p=0.001. Fatigue VAS: OB 53.3 vs. NW 45.4, p=0.015). Obese patients also rated significantly worse physical functioning than normal weight patients (SF-36: OB 43.6 vs. NW 55.6, p=< 0.001). " link http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=74347&nfid=rssfeeds Losing weight certainly seems to be benefialcial for arthritis patients in general; and specifically RA patients. I expect some would benefit from a low carb diet. Thanks Vince > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > patients in general; and specifically RA patients. I expect some > would benefit from a low carb diet. Thanks Vince Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for HIS compelling you to unwittingly reveal the HE is indeed the Source of all knowledge and wisdom and that Christ's brethren, who are in the Holy Spirit, remain trustworthy sources of credible information, as those uncovered lamps HE would have us be, giving the light of the truth, Who is LORD Jesus Christ, to everyone in the room. Laus Deo ! ! ! May GOD bless you in HIS mighty way making you healthier (hungrier) than ever. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Cardiologist > Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for HIS compelling > you to unwittingly reveal the HE is indeed the Source of all knowledge [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, and every word of that copied and pasted from his previous rantings, as that's what Chunk is. A cut and paste fake Christian FR It seems to me I heard somewhere that bigvince wrote in article <1182262247.129933.206780@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com>: >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in >> article <1181941090.730946.173...@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>: [Re Limbrel] >> >> >> You seem to be the only >> >> >> doctor (including nationally recognized rheumatologists) I have ever >> >> >> seen recommending it. >> >> >That will likely change in time. >> >> >The manufacturers of Limbrel have thus far not spent much to market >> >> >their product. They have had a lot of overhead costs in rebuilding >> >> >their Florida manufacturing plant 5 times during the Katrina hurricane >> >> >season a couple of years ago. >> >> >They have been in my prayers ever since their trial by storm because >> >> >their product has been and remains a blessing for many of my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >cardiac patients suffering from osteoarthritis consider asking their >> >physician(s) about Limbrel. >In that limbrel contains the same substance that naturally occurs in >cherries and is a natural anti -inflammatory and has a much better >safty profile than either Nsaids or Cox 2 inhibitors which have been >shown dispite Dr. Chungs comments to increase the risk of heart attack >and stroke . It does seem a good choice for osteoartritis. Limbrel's developers describe it as a nutritional product. If there were peer-reviewed studies showing it to have anti-inflammatory action I would expect their material to cite those studies since that would be a strong talking point.. "Limbrel is the first prescription product developed and formulated specifically to safely meet the distinctive nutritional requirements of patients with osteoarthritis through dual inhibition (COX + LOX) of arachidonic acid metabolization and anti-oxidant action rather than COX-2 selective inhibition. Clinical studies have shown Limbrel to be effective in safely managing the unique nutritional needs of osteoarthritis with side effects comparable to placebo." http://www.limbrel.com/limbrel.php >Also there >is pretty good evidence that reducing Vat can help RA patients . This >benefit occurs without side effects. Dr. Chung is the one who pushes VAT and the only mention of VAT in my message was within a quote from him. I'm skeptical, but it's not my argument. SignatureDon Kirkman > >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > osteoarthritis with side effects comparable to placebo." > http://www.limbrel.com/limbrel.php >From your cited source: Martel-Pelletier, J, Lajeunesse, D, Reboul, P, Pelletier, JP. 2003. Therapeutic Role of Dual Inhibitors of 5-LOX and COX, Selective and Non-Selective Non-Steroidal Anti- Inflammatory Drugs. Ann. Rhem. Dis, 62:501-09. Bottomline: You are untruthful. Your being untruthful simply shows that the Holy Spirit is right to convict you: http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts > >Also there > >is pretty good evidence that reducing Vat can help RA patients . This > >benefit occurs without side effects. > > Dr. Chung is the one who pushes VAT Actually, I advocate VAT reduction. This remains best achieved by eating less down to the optimal amount thereby becoming healthier (hungrier). May GOD bless you in HIS mighty way making you healthier (hungrier) than ever, dear neighbor Don whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Cardiologist It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in article <1182279451.223510.68880@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>: >> >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > >>From your cited source: >Martel-Pelletier, J, Lajeunesse, D, Reboul, P, Pelletier, JP. 2003. >Therapeutic Role of Dual Inhibitors of 5-LOX and COX, Selective and >Non-Selective Non-Steroidal Anti- >Inflammatory Drugs. Ann. Rhem. Dis, 62:501-09. So far I haven't found that article on Limbrel's page which I cited and where I said I would have expected such a study to be cited. I did find an article by the manufacturer, Primus Pharmaceuticals, but it doesn't even mention Limbrel except in the footnotes: http://www.limbrel.com/downloads/new_approach_in_oa.pdf I did find what they report as study findings . Clinical & Scientific Support . Limbrel and its ingredients are supported by numerous medical and scientific studies including: Randomized, Double Blind, Placebo-Controlled Study Measure Limbrel Placebo p-value Functional Stiffness -38.0% +3.1% p=0.005 Functional Mobility +28.4% +2.3% p<0.04 http://www.limbrel.com/downloads/product_profile.pdf . . . but I don't see a cite to the study itself. Stiffness and mobility are measures of osteoarthritic effects, but I wonder if they can be considered surrogates for reduced inflammation? I still don't see Primus making that linkage on their page. I did find an article by some of the same authors reporting enhanced safety of licofelone over rofecoxib in dogs; http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2885.2004.00640.x Perhaps you found the study in the professionals-only section, or somewhere else? >Your being untruthful simply shows that the Holy Spirit is right to >convict you: Discussed in a different thread. >> >Also there >> >is pretty good evidence that reducing Vat can help RA patients . This >> >benefit occurs without side effects. >> Dr. Chung is the one who pushes VAT >Actually, I advocate VAT reduction. I'm sorry meanings don't always seem clear to you. SignatureDon Kirkman > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > >> >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > So far I haven't found that article on Limbrel's page which I cited and > where I said I would have expected such a study to be cited. Sad to read about your difficulties. > I did find > an article by the manufacturer, Primus Pharmaceuticals, but it doesn't [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Perhaps you found the study in the professionals-only section, or > somewhere else? The reference citation came from the web site you cited by its URL. > >Your being untruthful simply shows that the Holy Spirit is right to > >convict you: > > > > http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts > > Discussed in a different thread. Actually, there has been no discussion but rather the reaction from satan via his sockpuppets (corporeal demons) and those who remain convicted by the Holy Spirit as you are has been interesting: http://tinyurl.com/39xxka > >> >Also there > >> >is pretty good evidence that reducing Vat can help RA patients . This [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I'm sorry meanings don't always seem clear to you. You remind me of the blind man who would feign vision by evaluating the vision of the seeing. May GOD bless you in HIS mighty way making you healthier (hungrier) than ever. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Cardiologist It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in article <1182291182.090105.229650@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>: [. . .] >> So far I haven't found that article on Limbrel's page which I cited and >> where I said I would have expected such a study to be cited. [. . .] >> I did find what they report as study findings >> . Clinical & Scientific Support . Limbrel and its ingredients are >> supported by numerous medical and scientific studies including: >> Randomized, Double Blind, Placebo-Controlled Study >> Measure Limbrel Placebo p-value >> Functional Stiffness -38.0% +3.1% p=0.005 >> Functional Mobility +28.4% +2.3% p<0.04 >> http://www.limbrel.com/downloads/product_profile.pdf . . . >> Perhaps you found the study in the professionals-only section, or >> somewhere else? >The reference citation came from the web site you cited by its URL. A non-answer to whether or not it was in the professionals-only section, which I was not allowed to enter. It was not in the publicly available material for pharmacists, at least. SignatureDon Kirkman > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > which I was not allowed to enter. It was not in the publicly available > material for pharmacists, at least. Sorry to read about your continued difficulties. This would be GOD humbling you... ... and showing that the HE is right to convict you: http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Cardiologist > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Sorry to read about your continued difficulties. If you were, you would have given Don a straight answer two posts back. Is your willful disingenuousness a worse character flaw that your hypocrisy, or does your mock-solicitude greatly overshadow them both? Don: here is a link to the study, at the journal's website: http://tinyurl.com/3aqrau -- cary > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > If you were, you would have given Don a straight answer two > posts back. In the Holy Spirit, I had the foreknowledge that GOD would have you come forward to demonstrate that it remains my choice to continue writing truthfully. > Is your willful disingenuousness a worse character flaw > that your hypocrisy, or does your mock-solicitude greatly > overshadow them both? Again, it remains my choice to continue writing truthfully as GOD has compelled you to unwittingly demonstrate. > Don: here is a link to the study, at the journal's website: > > http://tinyurl.com/3aqrau Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for HIS compelling you to unwittingly demonstrate that dear neighbor Don Kirkman remains convicted by the Holy Spirit as are you: http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts May GOD bless you and dear neighbor Don Kirkman in HIS mighty way making you both healthier (hungrier) than ever, dear neighbor Cary whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Cardiologist It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in article <1182301109.004446.208610@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>: >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: >> > Sorry to read about your continued difficulties. >> If you were, you would have given Don a straight answer two >> posts back. >In the Holy Spirit, I had the foreknowledge that GOD would have you >come forward to demonstrate that it remains my choice to continue >writing truthfully. >Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for HIS compelling >you to unwittingly demonstrate that dear neighbor Don Kirkman remains >convicted by the Holy Spirit as are you: >http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts Which I refuted as an idiosyncratic interpretation not supported by the Bible (the verb "convict" doesn't even appear in the best attested manuscript of John's Gospel, nor in any other place in the Bible) in the message Subject: OTP! A Few Words About Convictions, Message-ID: <j74g735iampr9bb8796o0j3h68q9jhn6v5@4ax.com> I posted yesterday. You must have overlooked it. SignatureDon Kirkman > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Which I refuted as an idiosyncratic interpretation not supported by the > Bible It remains a prayer list and not an interpretation of the Bible. Bottomline: You are untruthful. This simply shows that the Holy Spirit has been absolutely right to convict you: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/627174d075bc714d? May GOD bless you in HIS mighty way making you healthier (hungrier) than ever. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Cardiologist > com> > Reply-To: donsno2@wavecable.com [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Message-ID: <j74g735iampr9bb8796o0j3h68q9jhn6v5@4ax.com> I posted > yesterday. You must have overlooked it. Um, you may have noticed that when it comes to spiritual pronouncements, Andrew finds actual Scripture to be far, far too limited. -- cary > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > come forward to demonstrate that it remains my choice to continue > writing truthfully. Oh? Let's explore that then, shall we? Just what does your Spirit-derived foresight inform you about about the specific content of what I am just about to write -- in fact, have already written, and will now send -- in response to your post number <1182317646.865279.288200@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com> ? This will make for a most fascinating little experiment. I'm quite excited. Kindly record -- quite specifically -- that foreknowledge here: (alternatively, you could just evade in some manner that will cause everone reading it to point and giggle. there's always that option. as you well know.) -- cary > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Oh? Let's explore that then, shall we? Nothing to explore since it has already happened. > Just what does your Spirit-derived foresight inform you about about > the specific content of what I am just about to write -- in fact, have > already written, and will now send -- in response to your > post number <1182317646.865279.288200@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com> ? Foreknowledge is not foresight. > This will make for a most fascinating little experiment. I'm quite > excited. It seems you suffer from a shortage of reading comprehension rather than excitement. > Kindly record -- quite specifically -- that foreknowledge here: The foreknowledge is HIS to give when HE chooses to give it. > (alternatively, you could just evade in some manner that will cause > everone reading it to point and giggle. there's always that option. > as you well know.) Writing truthfully, as I have been continuing to choose to do, is not evasion. In the Holy Spirit, I do have the foreknowledge that wisdom and understanding will continue to evade you. This simply shows that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict you: http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Cardiologist > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > Writing truthfully, as I have been continuing to choose to do, is not > evasion. And I thank you for confirming my certain foreknowledge that you couldn't do it. -- cary > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > And I thank you for confirming my certain foreknowledge that you > couldn't do it. Did not write that I had GOD's gift of prophecy. Truth is simple... ... and eludes you just as wisdom and understanding continue to elude you. This simply shows that the Holy Spirit is absolutely right to convict you: http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Cardiologist This is a place of Prayer for God's purposes and not to sell your medical profession. Please use it as such! God Bless, Gary >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: >> > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD > Cardiologist > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > This is a place of Prayer for God's purposes and not to sell your medical > profession. You seemed confused. > Please use it as such! You will be in my prayers, dear neighbor Gary whom I love unconditionally. Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Cardiologist >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: >> >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > >Andrew <>< Can we say Quack http://home.comcast.net/~ac-christianlife/ > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > > Can we say Quack You can if you wish to be called a duck by others. This simply shows that you remain convicted by the Holy Spirit: http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts Prayerfully in Jesus' awesome love, Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Cardiologist > This is a place of Prayer for God's purposes and not to sell your > medical profession. > Please use it as such! > God Bless, > Gary Medical Doctors can help more than prayer and religion. I am a full qualified medical doctor. I am a prominent Chiropractic Physician in Salt Lake City, and I can probably help more than religion. No one sells medical expertise because smart people use it. Larry >>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: >>>>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] >> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD >> Cardiologist It seems to me I heard somewhere that Cary Kittrell wrote in article <f59sg1$259$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>: >> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: >> > [. . .] >> > >> So far I haven't found that article on Limbrel's page which I cited and >> > >> where I said I would have expected such a study to be cited. >> > >> Perhaps you found the study in the professionals-only section, or >> > >> somewhere else? >> > >The reference citation came from the web site you cited by its URL. >> > A non-answer to whether or not it was in the professionals-only section, >> > which I was not allowed to enter. It was not in the publicly available >> > material for pharmacists, at least. >> Sorry to read about your continued difficulties. >If you were, you would have given Don a straight answer two >posts back. >Is your willful disingenuousness a worse character flaw >that your hypocrisy, or does your mock-solicitude greatly >overshadow them both? >Don: here is a link to the study, at the journal's website: > http://tinyurl.com/3aqrau Thanks, Cary. It may be a day or so before I can get to it, but I'll check it out. SignatureDon Kirkman Thank you very much and goobye (TYVMAG) "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <love11@thetruth.com> a écrit ... > It is unlikely that "unbiased" continuing medical education (CME) > Today's New York Times had an interesting op- ed piece on the role > drug companies play in the continuing education of your [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > read full story http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/13/opinion/13carlat.html?_r=1&th&emc=t... > Thanks Vince Dr. Carlat has started a blog, The Carlat Psychiatry Blog, http://carlatpsychiatry.blogspot.com. Marilyn > Dr.Carlat has started a blog, The Carlat Psychiatry Blog, http://carlatpsychiatry.blogspot.com. In the latest post on his blog, Dr. Carlat includes three letters responding to his Op-ed and comments on them. Marilyn |
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