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Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / April 2007Cholesterol levels,statins and bypass surgery.
I am a 75 year old male who has enjoyed resonable health for most of his life. I am not overweight and do not smoke. My blood pressure has been in the 120's/80's for at least the past ten years. In January 06 , on my usual morning walk, I became aware of a dull chest ache on the lower left hand side. Although I was slightly breathless in walking uphill the ache was not related to the degree of effort. I did pretty well on a treadmill stress test, but a CT scan revealed two heavily calcified plaque in two of the coronary arteries. Angioplasty was considered but the location of the plaques made this procedure not advisable. In July 06 I had a double bypass operation. My cardiac rehabilitation went according to plan and by Christmas 06 I was looking forward to playing golf again. In October 06 my doctor persuaded me to take rosuvastatin. I had previously taken simvastatin, but this gave me a severe rash, together with extreme weariness, muscle aches, headaches and unsteady gait. My doctor prescribed 5mg of rosuvastatin at first, then 10mg in December 06 and finally 20mg in February 07. There were few noticeable side effects at first but as the dose increased so did the severity of the side effects. In March I began to feel so unwell the I decided that statins were not for me. My researches into statins prompted my recent posting 'Statins Again'. My cholesterol levels have been as follows: December 06 February 07 mmol mg/dL mmol mg/dL Total 6.1 234.6 5.7 219.2 HDL 2.3 88.4 2.3 88.4 LDL 3.8 146.1 3.4 130.8 Although my LDL reading is above the recommended level, my HDL is way above. I did discuss with my doctor whether readings like this really indicated I had a cholesterol problem. He insisted that the right course was to prescribe statins. So my questions are: (1) with those sort of figures what sort of risk do I run of early death or heart attack. (2) How are the recommended levels of cholesterol established - is it simply from the blood cholesterol of those who suffer or die from heart attacks? Can the levels not properly vary from one individual to another?. (3) There seems to be a great deal of evidence that low LDL levels are associated with increased of heart attacks or stroke. Am I being naive in being persuaded by such evidence? In the months after my operation the only chest pain I had was brought about by the surgical wound. About two months ago, though, I again became aware of a dull in the lower left chest, the same location that led to the initial discovery of the plaques.So other questions spring to mind: (1) I doubt that further plaques could have developed since the operation, but is it likely that the bypassed plaques are causing the ache? My doctor has dismissed the idea that this is an angina ache, because it would be located in the centre of my chest. To which I say that the ache is similar to the one that led to the operation. Sorry about the length of this. Any comments or advice would be very welcome. Tony Sims, Chipping Campden, UK > December 06 February > 07 [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > (1) with those sort of figures what sort of risk do I run of early > death or heart attack. Your HDL is highly protective, especially if the other more important than LDL marker, your fasting triglycerides are healthy normal or low. Triglyceride/HDL ratio is a much better predictor of cardiac mortality than LDL. Further, any doc who would rx a statin for someone who had your symptoms to the first one is dangerous and should be avoided at all costs, IMO. > (2) How are the recommended levels of cholesterol established - is it > simply from the blood cholesterol of those who suffer or die from > heart attacks? Can the levels not properly vary from one individual > to another?. They're basically unrealistic and unnecessary targets recommended by the statin pushers. > (3) There seems to be a great deal of evidence that low LDL levels are > associated with increased of heart attacks or stroke. Am I being > naive in being persuaded by such evidence? No. Low LDL levels will impair your body's adrenal function, especially if you're elderly, this may be why lower LDL levels in elderly folks are associated with more, not less mortality. Tony, your HDL is so high as to be very protective. If you eat a high starch/carb diet and have high triglycerides, just replace the starches with veggies and healthy fats to drop your triglycerides like a rock and to prevent atherosclerosos from reforming. Susan > x-no-archive: yes ..... > Triglyceride/HDL ratio is a much better predictor of cardiac mortality > than LDL. ..... > No. Low LDL levels will impair your body's adrenal function, especially > if you're elderly, this may be why lower LDL levels in elderly folks are > associated with more, not less mortality. ..... Your posting caught my eye. I've never heard before that low LDL levels can have negative consequences. How low is "low" (and how old is "elderly") for a male, late 50s, 5'11" 168 lbs? My numbers are: TC = 140 trig = 52 HDL = 50 LDL = 75. Thank you. Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part: > Low LDL levels will impair your body's adrenal function, especially >if you're elderly, this may be why lower LDL levels in elderly folks are >associated with more, not less mortality. You've posited a causal explanation for an association. A counterexample is the reduced mortality in elderly from statins. There are only sufficient data on mortality in secondary treatment, and you can claim that the increased "adrenal" mortality is offset by decreased cardiovascular mortality, but that's not the way it looks to me. I also think you have to distinguish between a 75-y-o with naturally very low LDL and a 75-y-o with very low LDL due to a statin. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > You've posited a causal explanation for an association. A counterexample is > the reduced mortality in elderly from statins. There are only sufficient [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > low LDL and a 75-y-o with very low LDL due to a statin. > -- Okay, points well taken. Elderly with naturally low LDL obviously already are adrenally low, potentially. OTOH, adrenal function slows with age, and is essential for normal functioning. Lowering LDL to proposed targets could/would make it very difficult for the elderly to produce enough steroid hormones. Susan > Susan <neverm...@nomail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > increased "adrenal" mortality is offset by decreased cardiovascular > mortality, but that's not the way it looks to me. I have looked but not found anything to substantiate the benefits to the elderly of taking statins. I suppose, because of my bypass surgery I come within the secondary prevention category. But I have never had real angine pain, neither have I ever felt close to a heart attack. Maybe my HDL was lookinmg after me. Tony. > I also think you have to distinguish between a 75-y-o with naturally very > low LDL and a 75-y-o with very low LDL due to a statin. > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > I have looked but not found anything to substantiate the benefits to > the > elderly of taking statins. Assuming we are talking again about secondary prevention, then you are not looking in the right places. The secondary prevention trials of statins had large number of patients over age 65 and meta-analyses as well as the individual trials showed benefits in that subgroup. These posts really read like someone already knowing the answer they want rather than looking at the evidence objectively.  SignatureDavid Rind drind@caregroup.harvard.edu > These posts really read like someone already knowing the answer they > want rather than looking at the evidence objectively. Returning to the concerns of the OP, are you suggesting he take statins despite his adverse reactions to them? Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Susan I think it's only rarely possible to make useful suggestions to individuals over the Internet. Many people with coronary heart disease who are getting statin side effects on moderate or high doses of a lipophilic statin (such as simvastatin or atorvastatin) would do well to see whether they could tolerate a low dose of a hydrophilic statin (such as pravastatin). SignatureDavid Rind drind@caregroup.harvard.edu > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > They're basically unrealistic and unnecessary targets recommended by the > statin pushers. Unfortunately I can't get hold of my triglyceride levels, but I understand what you are getting at. The more I read the evidence I find that cholesterol levels are not associated with CHD. > > (3) There seems to be a great deal of evidence that low LDL levels are > > associated with increased of heart attacks or stroke. Am I being [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > with veggies and healthy fats to drop your triglycerides like a rock and > to prevent atherosclerosos from reforming. I have been, and still am, very careful about carbohydrate consumption. I was on Atkins for a long time before my operation. Think he made a lot of sense. The diet worked, and smears that it was no-carb diet were misguided. I steered away from him after my cardiac rehabilitation, where I was bombarded with dietary advice. As a result of that I steered towards the South Beach diet, which is very much the same as Atkins, except for strong warnings against saturated fat. I now find that there is much evidence that saturated fat is not strongly associated with CHD, so I am thinking of going back to cream in my coffee, and butter on my toast (seeded bread of course). I don't want to bore you but I stumbled on the South Beach Diet quite by accident. My coronary examination revealed that I had a high Agatston score (something like 577, and in the 75th percentile). On checking out who Agatston was I came across the diet. Many thanks Susan for you encouragement. tony. > Susan- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - :: x-no-archive: yes :: tonyzs...@yahoo.com wrote: [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] : in the 75th percentile). On checking out who Agatston was I came : across the diet. A diet high in vitamin K has been shown to prevent arterial calcification in some studies. That might be helpful in your condition to prevent further plaque formation. Also consider drinking pomegranate juice which has been shown to reduce intima media thickness in carotid arteries. Do you take fish oil supplements? SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: >A diet high in vitamin K has been shown to prevent arterial calcification in >some studies. That might be helpful in your condition to prevent further >plaque formation. I've been following that issue and it is certainly interesting. But it would be hard not to get a high Vit K diet most places, anyway. All depending on how "high" of course. There's also the niggling question of whether reducing the calcification with vit K reduces the risk of infarct or stroke... -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA : "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: : [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : it would be hard not to get a high Vit K diet most places, anyway. : All depending on how "high" of course. The current reference intakes for vitamin K are based solely on the function of vitamin K in blood coagulation and _not_ what is needed to preserve bone and vascular health. From the available dietary data it is known that daily intakes between 200 and 500 mcg/day would be required for optimal gamma-carboxylation of osteocalcin (related to bone health). My _guess_ is that that amount might be needed also to prevent arterial calfication. 200 to 500 mcg/day can be obtained from a diet but it requires some consciouss effort. In practice one has to eat broccoli, spinach or parsley every day to get that amont. Consuming Japanese fermented food /natto/ would make it easier as that is very high in vitamin K2. : There's also the niggling question of whether reducing the : calcification with vit K reduces the risk of infarct or stroke... SignatureJuhana :: "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: :: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] : Consuming Japanese fermented food /natto/ would make it easier as : that is very high in vitamin K2. In the Maastricht Osteostudy no loss of elasticity of arteries was observed in patients who received an additional 1 mg/day of vitamin K1 for three years. (Vermeer C et al. Beyond deficiency: potential benefits of increased intakes of vitamin K for bone and vascular health. Eur J Nutr 43, 1-11. The full study is freely available here: http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/archive/00000280/ .) :: There's also the niggling question of whether reducing the :: calcification with vit K reduces the risk of infarct or stroke... SignatureJuhana ::: "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: ::: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] : health. Eur J Nutr 43, 1-11. The full study is freely available here: : http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/archive/00000280/ .) An extract from the full study: " *Vitamin K1 intervention studies for vascular health* Accumulating evidence suggests that in many aspects arterial calcification mimics bone formation, which prompts interest in the effects of vitamin K on the vasculature. Previous population-based studies reported a significant reduction in aortic calcification with high vitamin K1 [62] and vitamin K2 intake [63], and a significant inverse correlation was found between vitamin K2 intake, and the incidence of both ischaemic heart disease and cardiovascular mortality [63]. Based on these findings the effect of treatment on arterial characteristics was monitored in the Maastricht osteostudy. These unpublished findings clearly demonstrated that supplementation with vitamin K1 can protect against vascular hardening and loss of arterial elasticity. High dose MK-4 also seems to have cholesterol lowering properties as shown in studies in rabbits [64] and humans [65]." References: 62. Jie K-SG, Bots ML, Vermeer C, Witteman JCM, Grobbee DE (1995) Vitamin K intake and osteocalcin levels in women with and without aortic atherosclerosis: a population-based study. Atherosclerosis 116:117-123 63. Geleijnse JM, Vermeer C, Schurgers LJ,Grobbee DE, Pols HAP,Witteman JCM (2001) Inverse association of dietary vitamin K-2 intake with cardiac events and aortic atherosclerosis: The Rotterdam Study. Thromb Haemostas (Suppl July):P473 64. Kawashima H,Nakajima N,Matubara Y, Nakanowatari J, Fukata T, Mizuno S, Takahashi S, Tajima T, Nakamura T (1997) Effects of vitamin K2 (Menatetrenone) on atherosclerosis and blood coagulation in hypercholesterolemic rabbits. Jpn J Pharmacol 75:135-143 65. Nagasawa Y,Fujii M,Kajimoto Y, Imai E, Hori M (1998) Vitamin K2 and serum cholesterol in patients on continuous ambulatory peritoneal dialysis. Lancet 351:724 SignatureJuhana On 14-Apr-2007, "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in message <58dq6oF2gbrqdU1@mid.individual.net>: [...] > In the Maastricht Osteostudy no loss of elasticity of arteries > was observed in patients who received an additional 1 mg/day of > vitamin K1 for three years. [...] Would that much vitamin K be contra-indicated for someone who's had an angioplasty and is taking aspirin to reduce the risk of heart attack or stroke? SignatureJim Heckman : On 14-Apr-2007, "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> : wrote in message <58dq6oF2gbrqdU1@mid.individual.net>: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] : an angioplasty and is taking aspirin to reduce the risk of heart : attack or stroke? I don't think so. To my knowledge the possible problems with vitamin K supplementation are associated with blood thinning medications (warfarin etc.). Everyone taking those medicines should consult their doctor before increasing their vitamin K intake. This is an extract from the full study by Vermeer C et al (link above): "Any risks associated with relatively high consumption of either K1 or K2 appear minimal, with intakes up to 1mg/d K1 and 45 mg/d MK-4 often having been used without observed adverse events. Two possible exceptions exist. Firstly a potential problem relates to interference with oral anticoagulants. However, a systematic dose-response study among subjects on oral anticoagulant treatment demonstrated that the stability of anticoagulation was not significantly affected by vitamin K supplements at doses below 100 mcg/day [14]. Secondly, preliminary studies have suggested that high vitamin K1 supplementation (i. e. _above_ 1 mg/day) can contribute to periodontal disease via a bacterial mechanism on gingival tissue (S.Hodges, unpublished data)." Emphasis mine. In addition, in Japan 45 mg and even 90 mg doses of vitamin K2 have been used in osteoporosis studies without any notable side effects. If you are taking aspirin to prevent clogging and to reduce low grade arterial inflammation I think that increasing vitamin K intake should just have an additional protective effect. Personally I prefer real food to supplements when possible, and I think that in your case it would be prudent to increase the intake of vitamin K rich foods like broccoli, spinach, parsley, dark green lettuce and /natto/ - to make a commitment to eat these on a daily basis. But if you find it difficult to increase the intake of these foods then supplementation might be a good solution. Please notice that I am not an expert on this issue and I am not a doctor either. SignatureJuhana :: On 14-Apr-2007, "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> :: wrote in message <58dq6oF2gbrqdU1@mid.individual.net>: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] : (warfarin etc.). Everyone taking those medicines should consult their : doctor before increasing their vitamin K intake. Here is an interesting article in Life-Extension Magazine on vitamin K: http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2000/feb00-report.html A quote: "Those taking ginkgo, aspirin, garlic or ginger to prevent blood clots and increase blood flow needn't worry that vitamin K will undo the effects. Vitamin K also prevents blood clots! It works by preventing 'platelet aggregation,' a process that is different from coagulation. Aggregation has to do with oxidative stress and free radicals, whereas coagulation is about the calcium level in cells." : This is an extract from the full study by Vermeer C et al (link : above): [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] : Please notice that I am not an expert on this issue and I am not a : doctor either. SignatureJuhana Another interesting article on vitamin K: http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2006/ss2006_report_vitamink_01.htm An extract: "In a huge European human clinical trial (The Rotterdam Study), doctors evaluated vitamin K intake of 4807 subjects over a 7-10 year period. After adjusting for other risk factors, coronary heart disease risk was reduced with increased intake of vitamin K2. Those who consumed the most vitamin K2 had a 57% reduction in cardiac disease compared to those who consumed the least K2." (Geleijnse JM, Vermeer C, Grobbee DE, et al. Dietary intake of menaquinone is associated with a reduced risk of coronary heart disease: the Rotterdam Study. J Nutr. 2004 Nov;134(11):3100-5. Full study: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/11/3100 ) Comment: MK-7, the vitamin K2 present in the Japanese fermented soybean food /natto/, has been found to be the ideal form of vitamin K. After oral administration, it has been found to be better absorbed and to last longer in the body compared to MK-4 and vitamin K1. SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: >Another interesting article on vitamin K: >http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2006/ss2006_report_vitamink_01.htm [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >administration, it has been found to be better absorbed and to last longer >in the body compared to MK-4 and vitamin K1. Of course, foods that are high in K are already suspected to reduce cardiovascular disease (compared to other things in the diet). -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA : "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: : [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] : Of course, foods that are high in K are already suspected to reduce : cardiovascular disease (compared to other things in the diet). I have been doing some study on this subject and this is not a question of suspicion anymore. Vitamin K and particularly vitamin K2 prevent arterial calcification by taking care of carboxylation of matrix Gla-protein. Matrix Gla-protein is a potent inhibitor of soft tissue calcification. Supplementation with vitamin K has been shown to preserve the elastic properties of arterial vessels walls ( http://tinyurl.com/2drxyy ). Regular /natto/ consumption has been shown to increase the levels of vitamin K and carboxylated matrix Gla-protein. SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: >: "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: >: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >Regular /natto/ consumption has been shown to increase the levels of vitamin >K and carboxylated matrix Gla-protein. Thanks for the cite. Very interesting. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: >I have been doing some study on this subject and this is not a question of >suspicion anymore. Vitamin K and particularly vitamin K2 prevent arterial >calcification by taking care of carboxylation of matrix Gla-protein. Matrix >Gla-protein is a potent inhibitor of soft tissue calcification. >Supplementation with vitamin K has been shown to preserve the elastic >properties of arterial vessels walls ( http://tinyurl.com/2drxyy ). Do you (or anyone) know what the dose of K was itn the cited study? I can only get the abstract at the moment. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA : "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: : [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] : Do you (or anyone) know what the dose of K was itn the cited study? I : can only get the abstract at the moment. No, I don't know the dose. While searching for the dose a found an interesting site on vitamin K. It seems that the site is maintained by the Maastricht University where the above mentioned vitamin K research is done. http://www.vitak.com/index.php?id=70 This is a nice review on vitamin K that might interest you. http://tinyurl.com/259j9x SignatureJuhana : "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: : [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] : Do you (or anyone) know what the dose of K was itn the cited study? I : can only get the abstract at the moment. Now I have the full study in print form. The dose was 1 mg of vitamin K1. SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: >: "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: >: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Now I have the full study in print form. The dose was 1 mg of vitamin K1. Thanks again. I have been looking to see if I can buy a K2 supplement, but only poorly-absorbed synthetic versions seem to be available. A company from Norway produces "Natto K2" but seems to have shut down operations here in the US... Maybe I can find natto... Miso is available everywhere, but has less (but unspecified) K2. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA : "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: : [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] : available. A company from Norway produces "Natto K2" but seems to : have shut down operations here in the US... I found few by doing some google search but the prevalent dose is 90 or 100 mcg of vitamin K2, which is too little, I think. LEF has a more potent supplement but it contains unnecessary high amounts of vitamin K: 1 mg vitamin K2 and 9 mg vitamin K1. If you add MK-7, menaquinone-7 or natto to your search it might be easier to find a more natural supplement. : Maybe I can find natto... Miso is available everywhere, but has less : (but unspecified) K2. Miso is made with a different bacteria which does not produce much vitamin K. Miso is no option as a vitamin K source, IMHO. I buy my natto from a Japanese store here in Finland. Perhaps you can find such a store, too? SignatureJuhana > : "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: > : [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > K. Miso is no option as a vitamin K source, IMHO. I buy my natto from a > Japanese store here in Finland. Perhaps you can find such a store, too? Frozen Natto in the US. http://www.asianfoodgrocer.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=146 7 or http://preview.tinyurl.com/yqj6yn Just below the Red writing in the middle of the page. I've dealt with these folks. Bill SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. ::: "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: ::::: "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] : : I've dealt with these folks. Freezing is fine. It does not affect the vitamin K content. SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: >: "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: >: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >K. Miso is no option as a vitamin K source, IMHO. I buy my natto from a >Japanese store here in Finland. Perhaps you can find such a store, too? Thanks. I did find some MK-7 sources but they all were combinations with things I don't want or with things in very high amounts (LEF is scary!). I will find one... -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA : "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: ::: "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] : with things I don't want or with things in very high amounts (LEF is : scary!). I will find one... The average vitamin K content of natto is 875 mcg/100 g, and one natto package weighs 40 or 50 grams. This might give you some kind of hint of the dose of vitamin K2. SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: >The average vitamin K content of natto is 875 mcg/100 g, and one natto >package weighs 40 or 50 grams. This might give you some kind of hint of the >dose of vitamin K2. I bought some Source Naturals from Vitamin Shoppe. These have 100 mmg of K2. (menaquinone-7) I'm taking 2 per day. Thanks for the info. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA Ways to use / make Natto. http://www.ynest.com/nattoeng.htm Bill who has made Tempeh. Natto seems to be harder to find. SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. >"Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >things I don't want or with things in very high amounts (LEF is scary!). I >will find one... Jim, Did you find Jarrow Formulas, 90 mcg MK-7 (Vitamin K2 as Menaquinone-7) (from 60 mg Natto Extract)? Other Ingredients Evening primrose oil, medium chain triglycerides, beeswax and lecithin. Softgel consists of gelatin, water, glycerine and carob (as a light barrier). Found it on iHerb.com but other places also sell it. Jay jay1000 <jfschonSpamguarD@cox.net> wrote in part: >Jim, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Found it on iHerb.com but other places also sell it. I found a similar product locally. Thanks. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > : "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: > : [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > K. Miso is no option as a vitamin K source, IMHO. I buy my natto from a > Japanese store here in Finland. Perhaps you can find such a store, too? LEF's K product has 10 mg of K where 9 mg are K1 and 1 mg is K2. I sent them an email and asked for the breakdown between the MK-4 and Mk-7 variants of K2 and their reply was 980 mcg of MK-4 and 20 mcg of MK-7. I've been taking the LEF K product for several years but am considering adding several hundred mcg of the MK-7 variant and perhaps adding some additional MK-4. Jarrow sells MK-7 containing 90 mcg of MK-7 per softgel. SignaturePramesh Rutajit - p297tongue6221@newsguy.com - Remove tongue to reply. > "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA Jim look at https://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=UX-1014 Vitamin K1 9 Mg VITAMIN K21 Mg Bill SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. William Wagner <not-to-here-williamwag@gmail.com> wrote in part: >Jim look at > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >VITAMIN K21 Mg Thanks, Bill, but the amount of K1 is completely unnecessary. I eat mostly leafy green veggies as it is... (PS: What is it with these vitamin pushers who write Mg when they mean mg? There's a difference of one billion between the two.) -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Maybe I can find natto... Miso is available everywhere, but has less (but > unspecified) K2. Just checking: you aren't taking Coumadin, are you? -- cary > Maybe I can find natto... Miso is available everywhere, but has less (but > unspecified) K2. > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA Natto is a bit like Limburger - you will love it or hate it. It is offensively smelly to some. Roland :: Maybe I can find natto... Miso is available everywhere, but has less :: (but unspecified) K2. : Natto is a bit like Limburger - you will love it or hate it. It is : offensively smelly to some. My advice is to combine natto with some other foods you like. I prepare my natto with some chopped red onion and nori flakes (this resembles the traditional way to eat natto with chopped leek and nori flakes). I often combine natto with some vegetable curry and quinoa. SignatureJuhana On 25-Apr-2007, "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in message <598e70F2it087U1@mid.individual.net>: > I have been doing some study on this subject and this is not a question of > suspicion anymore. Vitamin K and particularly vitamin K2 prevent arterial [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Supplementation with vitamin K has been shown to preserve the elastic > properties of arterial vessels walls ( http://tinyurl.com/2drxyy ). Is there any evidence that high vitamin K blood levels can *reverse* arterial calcification? IIRC, high HDL levels have been shown to actually remove athersclerotic plaque. [...] SignatureJim Heckman : On 25-Apr-2007, "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> : wrote in message <598e70F2it087U1@mid.individual.net>: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] : *reverse* arterial calcification? IIRC, high HDL levels have been : shown to actually remove athersclerotic plaque. In rats yes, but not yet in humans to my knowledge. This is a fresh rat study (published in print in this month) where vitamin K was shown to reduce warfarin-induced aortic calfication. http://tinyurl.com/26wluh A related news article: http://tinyurl.com/24fmo9 SignatureJuhana Read today's post in the Heart Scan Blog. He discusses natto and Vitamin K2. Marilyn : Read today's post in the Heart Scan Blog. He discusses natto and : Vitamin K2. The guy does not know what he is talking about. Utter nonsense. SignatureJuhana Juhana wrote: > The guy does not know what he is talking about. Utter nonsense. OK. I don't know enough to form an opinion. Marilyn >: Read today's post in the Heart Scan Blog. He discusses natto and >: Vitamin K2. > >The guy does not know what he is talking about. Utter nonsense. He states: Any oral fibrinolytic agent is promptly degraded in the highly acid environment of the stomach. That's why all medically used fibrinolytics are given intravenously. ... You and I have to sift through the nonsense to uncover the real gems in this rockpile, real gems like vitamin D3, omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil, and, perhaps, vitamin K2. But not nattokinase. Where is the problem? It appears reasonable to me. ::: Read today's post in the Heart Scan Blog. He discusses natto and ::: Vitamin K2. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] : : Where is the problem? It appears reasonable to me. Nattokinase has been administered _orally_ in a placebo controlled study and it has been shown to work dissolve blood clots. Eating /natto/, containing nattokinase, has been shown to increase fibrinolythic activity in blood plasma tests. Nattokinase has been a subject of at least 17 studies. Nattokinase is probably less nonsense than warfarin which has been shown to induce arterial calcification. I am not a physician. SignatureJuhana :::: Read today's post in the Heart Scan Blog. He discusses natto and :::: Vitamin K2. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] : subject of at least 17 studies. Nattokinase is probably less nonsense : than warfarin which has been shown to induce arterial calcification. Acta Haematol. 1990;84(3):139-43. Enhancement of the fibrinolytic activity in plasma by oral administration of nattokinase. Sumi H, Hamada H, Nakanishi K, Hiratani H. Department of Physiology, Miyazaki Medical College, Japan. The existence of a potent fibrinolytic enzyme (nattokinase, NK) in the traditional fermented food called 'natto', was reported by us previously. It was confirmed that _oral_ administration of NK (or natto) produced a mild and frequent enhancement of the fibrinolytic activity in the plasma, as indicated by the fibrinolytic parameters, and the production of tissue plasminogen activator. NK capsules were also administered orally to dogs with experimentally induced thrombosis, and lysis of the thrombi was observed by angiography. The results obtained suggest that NK represents a possible drug for use not only in the treatment of embolism but also in the prevention of the disease, since NK has a proven safety and can be massproduced. PMID: 2123064 http://tinyurl.com/26rxmj Here is another fibrinolythic agent which has been administered _orally_: Angiology. 2003 Sep-Oct;54(5):531-9. Prevention of venous thrombosis in long-haul flights with Flite Tabs: the LONFLIT-FLITE randomized, controlled trial. Cesarone MR, Belcaro G, Nicolaides AN, Ricci A, Geroulakos G, Ippolito E, Brandolini R, Vinciguerra G, Dugall M, Griffin M, Ruffini I, Acerbi G, Corsi M, Riordan NH, Stuard S, Bavera P, Di Renzo A, Kenyon J, Errichi BM. Department of Biomedical Sciences, Irvine2 Vascular Lab, G D'Annunzio University, San Valentino Vascular Screening Project (Pe), Pescara, Italy. The aim of this study was to evaluate the development of edema, and superficial and deep vein thrombosis (DVT) prophylaxis with an _oral_ profibrinolytic agent (Flite Tabs, 150 mg pinokinase, Aidan, Tempe, AZ, USA) in long-haul flights (7-8 hours), in high-risk subjects. A group of 300 subjects was included; 76 were excluded for several problems including concomitant treatments; 204 were randomized into 2 groups (active treatment or placebo) to evaluate the effects of prophylaxis with Flite Tabs. An exercise program was used in both groups. The femoral, popliteal, tibial, and superficial veins were scanned with ultrasound before and within 90 minutes after flights. Of the included subjects, 92 of 103 controls and 94 of 101 treated subjects completed the study. Dropouts were due to connection problems. Age, gender, and risk distribution were comparable in the groups. In the treatment group, no DVT was observed. In the control group, 5 subjects (5.4%) had a DVT and there were 2 superficial thromboses (7 events in 92 subjects; 7.6%). At inclusion, edema was comparable in the 2 groups. After flights there was an increase in score in controls (+12%) in comparison with a decrease (-15%) in the Flite Tabs group (the difference in variation was statistically significant). Intention-to-treat analysis for thrombotic events shows 18 failures in controls (11 lost to follow-up + 7 thrombotic events) of 92 subjects (19.6%) in comparison with 7 failures (of 94 subjects, equivalent to 7.4%) in the treatment group (p < 0.05). Events were asymptomatic. In conclusion, Flite Tabs were effective in reducing thrombotic events and in controlling edema in high-risk subjects in long flights. PMID: 14565628 http://tinyurl.com/ysr3sl Emphasis mine. SignatureJuhana > ::: Read today's post in the Heart Scan Blog. He discusses natto and > ::: Vitamin K2. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > I am not a physician. Not a physician eh? What are you labeled ? I'm a retired Lab tech who had a scifinder (CAS) chair. (Which means unless you pay for info it is shoddy but I hope NIH is above that with fingers crossed). My last three years at employment before I got out of industrial mine design. Are you one of those sauna loving Finish folks? My wife Ingrid awoke me to such pleasure. Never broke ice but at just 45 degree F may be crazy I guess. Must be in the genes as my kids carry on. :)) Bill SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. ::::: Read today's post in the Heart Scan Blog. He discusses natto and ::::: Vitamin K2. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] : but at just 45 degree F may be crazy I guess. Must be in the genes : as my kids carry on. :)) Hi Bill, Please post to my address shantigiriorama at gmail dot com and I'll tell you more. :-) SignatureJuhana On 16-Apr-2007, "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in message <58grtkF2gtpp8U1@mid.individual.net>: > :: On 14-Apr-2007, "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> > :: wrote in message <58dq6oF2gbrqdU1@mid.individual.net>: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Here is an interesting article in Life-Extension Magazine on vitamin K: > http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2000/feb00-report.html Thanks for all the interesting info. It turns out LifeExtension's SUPER K (9 mg K1 + 1 mg K2) says "Take one (1) softgel a day with a meal, or as directed by a healthcare practitioner. Do not take with fiber supplements." Any idea what that last is all about? And do they mean not to take it at all if you're also taking a fiber supplement regularly, or just not to take it at the same time as a fiber supplement (as opposed to with a meal, I assume)? [...] SignatureJim Heckman : On 16-Apr-2007, "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> : wrote in message <58grtkF2gtpp8U1@mid.individual.net>: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] : supplement regularly, or just not to take it at the same time as a : fiber supplement (as opposed to with a meal, I assume)? My guess is that taking fiber supplement at the same time would hinder the absorption of vitamin K. SignatureJuhana : There's also the niggling question of whether reducing the : calcification with vit K reduces the risk of infarct or stroke... (Phylloquinone is vitamin K1 derived from vegetable foods.) Eur J Clin Nutr. 2005 Feb;59(2):196-204. Phylloquinone intake as a marker for coronary heart disease risk but not stroke in women. Erkkila AT, Booth SL, Hu FB, Jacques PF, Manson JE, Rexrode KM, Stampfer MJ, Lichtenstein AH. Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University, Boston, MA, USA. OBJECTIVE: To examine the feasibility of using phylloquinone intake as a marker for coronary heart disease (CHD) and stroke risk in women. DESIGN AND SETTING: Nurses' Health Study, a prospective cohort study during 1984-2000. Dietary data were collected in 1984, 1986, 1990, and 1994 using a validated semiquantitative food frequency questionnaire. SUBJECTS: A total of 72 874 female nurses, aged 38-65 y, without previously diagnosed angina, myocardial infarction (MI), stroke, or cancer at baseline. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Incidence of nonfatal MI, CHD deaths, total CHD events, ischemic, and total strokes. RESULTS: There were 1679 CHD events (1201 nonfatal) and 1009 strokes (567 ischemic). After adjustment for age and lifestyle factors associated with cardiovascular disease risk, the multivariate relative risks (RR) (95% CI) of total CHD from the lowest to the highest quintile category of phylloquinone intake were 1 (reference), 0.80 (0.69-0.94), 0.86 (0.74-1.00), 0.77 (0.66-0.99), and 0.79 (0.68-0.92), P for trend=0.01. Further adjustment for dietary intakes of saturated fat, polyunsaturated fat, trans fatty acids, eicosapentaenoic, and docosahexaenoic acids, cereal fiber, and folate attenuated the association (RR comparing extreme quintiles 0.84 [0.71-1.00], P for trend=0.12). Incidence rates of total or ischemic strokes were not associated with phylloquinone intake. CONCLUSION: The data suggest that high phylloquinone intake may be a marker for low CHD risk. Dietary and lifestyle patterns associated with phylloquinone intakes, rather than intake of the nutrient itself, might account for all or part of the weak association. PMID: 15454972 http://tinyurl.com/2xnhdl SignatureJuhana : I have been, and still am, very careful about carbohydrate : consumption. I was [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] : of going back to cream in my coffee, and butter on my toast (seeded : bread of course). Not a good idea, IMHO. Although saturated fats are not very strongly associated with CHD, unsatured fats are associated with clearly reduced risk (although some exceptions of this rule can be found, of course). So, I would suggest replacing saturated fats with unsaturated and not forgetting fish oils. High dose (~ 3 g/day)fish oils should reduce your high triglyceride values. For how long have you been on a low carb diet? SignatureJuhana > I am a 75 year old male who has enjoyed resonable health for most of > his life. I am not overweight and do not smoke. My blood pressure [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > Tony Sims, Chipping Campden, UK Yeah I know 1995 but look at HDL vs CHD. Bill ................ 1: JAMA. 1995 Aug 16;274(7):539-44. Links Comment in: JAMA. 1995 Aug 16;274(7):575-7. HDL cholesterol predicts coronary heart disease mortality in older persons. € Corti MC, Guralnik JM, Salive ME, Harris T, Field TS, Wallace RB, Berkman LF, Seeman TE, Glynn RJ, Hennekens CH, et al. Epidemiology, Demography and Biometry Program, National Institute on Aging/NIH, Bethesda, MD 20892, USA. OBJECTIVES--To examine the relationship of total cholesterol and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C) with coronary heart disease (CHD) mortality and with occurrence of new CHD events in persons aged 71 years and older. DESIGN--Prospective cohort study with a median of 4.4 years of follow-up. SETTING--East Boston, Mass; New Haven, Conn; and Iowa and Washington counties, Iowa. PARTICIPANTS--A total of 2527 women and 1377 men who completed an interview, had serum lipid determinations, and survived at least 1 year. New CHD events were evaluated in persons with no CHD history or hospitalization. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES--Death due to CHD (ICD-9 codes 410 through 414 as underlying cause of death); new occurrence of CHD events (fatal CHD or hospitalization with CHD [ICD-9 codes 410 through 414]). RESULTS--After adjustment for established CHD risk factors, the relative risk (RR) of death due to CHD for those with low HDL-C (< 0.90 mmol/L [< 35 mg/dL]) compared with the reference group (HDL-C > or = 1.55 mmol/L [> or = 60 mg/dL]) was 2.5 (95% confidence interval [CI], 1.6 to 4.0). Elevated risk was present in subgroups aged 71 through 80 years (RR, 4.1; 95% CI, 1.9 to 8.8) and over 80 years (RR, 1.8; 95% CI, 0.99 to 3.4), and in men and women. Low HDL-C predicted an increased risk of occurrence of new CHD events (RR, 1.4; 95% CI, 1.1 to 2.0), with similar but nonsignificant results in subgroups of men and women. Total cholesterol was less consistently associated with CHD mortality than HDL-C. When we compared individuals with total cholesterol of at least 6.20 mmol/L (240 mg/dL) with the reference group with total cholesterol of 4.16 to 5.19 mmol/L (161 to 199 mg/dL), a significant risk of CHD mortality was seen for women (RR 1.8; 95% CI, 1.03 to 3.0) but not for men (RR, 1.0; 95% CI, 0.5 to 2.0). In the total population, for each 1-unit increase in the total cholesterol/HDL-C ratio there was a 17% increase in the risk of CHD death that was statistically significant. CONCLUSIONS--Low HDL-C predicts CHD mortality and occurrence of new CHD events in persons older than 70 years. Elevated total cholesterol was not found to be associated with CHD mortality in older men, but may be a risk factor for CHD in older women. PMID: 7629981 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. On Apr 11, 1:36 pm, William Wagner <not-to-here-william...@gmail.com> wrote: > In article <1176308858.290878.8...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 131 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Please do not allow your side effects go unnoticed. A physician needs to be aware of all the potential side effects of meds he gives and to take measures to minimise them all to often that does not happen. An interesting resource in this regard is SPACE DOC just google it > On Apr 11, 1:36 pm, William Wagner <not-to-here-william...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 139 lines] > take measures to minimise them all to often that does not happen. An > interesting resource in this regard is SPACE DOC just google it- Hide quoted text - Thank you. I'm treating all medical advice with extreme caution. I went to Space Doc and found a name I'm familiar with. I'd get the book but it's a bit pricey. > - Show quoted text - On 11 Apr, 18:36, William Wagner <not-to-here-william...@gmail.com> wrote: > In article <1176308858.290878.8...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 120 lines] > mortality in older men, but may be a risk factor for CHD in older women. > PMID: 7629981 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Thank you. These findings confirm what I have come across elsewhere. And when I pointed out my own high levels of HDL to doctors and surgeons they looked blank. All they wanted to do was to put me on statins. I hope I have seen the light in time. Tony. > -- > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > Thank you. These findings confirm what I have come across elsewhere. > And when I pointed out my own high levels of HDL to doctors and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I have seen the light in time. > Tony. It doesn't make any sense to talk about HDL being protective once in someone who has already developed CHD severe enough to require bypass surgery. Obviously it was not protective in that individual. SignatureDavid Rind drind@caregroup.harvard.edu > It doesn't make any sense to talk about HDL being protective once in > someone who has already developed CHD severe enough to require bypass > surgery. Obviously it was not protective in that individual. You've ignored the other half of that equation: triglycerides. HDL won't overcome a bad diet leading to hypertriglyceridemia, hyperinsulinemia or elevated glucose excursions. You do make a very good point about not focusing on a single lipid parameter, but on the interactions among them. The metabolism and endocrine system as a whole should be considered, not just one piece of data as a target. Susan : x-no-archive: yes : [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : won't overcome a bad diet leading to hypertriglyceridemia, : hyperinsulinemia or elevated glucose excursions. Susan, you are ignoring that he has not been very succesful in controlling his high triglycerides with a kind of low carb diet you are promoting. Obviously there is a need for adjustments as the results are not good. SignatureJuhana |
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