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Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / March 2007

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Should saturated fat be avoided at ALL costs?

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me@privacy.net - 12 Mar 2007 18:31 GMT
I'm a healthy 48 yr old white male.   Somewhat
overweight but not obese. Sedentary lifestyle

I take 40 mgs simvastatin in evenings

And 10 mg lisinopril in morning along with baby aspirin

Will also start taking 1000 mg fish oil capsule daily

Having said all that I'm curious if saturated fat is to
be avoided at any and ALL costs.

By that I mean.....  I watch my diet but still find
many foods that have at least some saturated fats.  I
guess it would be possible to eat NO saturated
fat...but with difficulty.

So..... I'm curious..... is it possible to eat NO
saturated fats.....and is it even desirable to avoid at
any cost?

Or.... is some saturated fat on daily basis OK for
someone like me?

Bottom line....just how strict should I be with
saturated fats?

The stricter the better?
Susan - 12 Mar 2007 18:39 GMT
> I'm a healthy 48 yr old white male.   Somewhat
> overweight but not obese. Sedentary lifestyle
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Having said all that I'm curious if saturated fat is to
> be avoided at any and ALL costs.

Absolutely not, but starch and sugar consumption should be pared down to
very small amounts.

And it's preferable, in terms of health, to eat meat/dairy from grass
fed animals.  The fat and arachidonic acid profiles in them are healthier.

> By that I mean.....  I watch my diet but still find
> many foods that have at least some saturated fats.  I
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> The stricter the better?

I had severe dyslidemia for many years.  Two weeks after I cut out
starch and sugar and reintroduced fat and protein as the base of my
diet, my HDL doubled to 68 (it's now 70, after years of a diet that's
50% fat, 1/3 of that saturated), my LDL dropped to 126, and my
triglycerides, the most CVD predictive fats, with HDL, dropped from
around the high 200s to 100.

You need fat and protein to sustain life and to build healthy cells and
immune and brain function.  You don't need starch and sugar, which raise
TGLs directly.

Susan
me@privacy.net - 12 Mar 2007 19:22 GMT
>You need fat and protein to sustain life and to build healthy cells and
>immune and brain function.  You don't need starch and sugar, which raise
>TGLs directly.

So basically you advocate the atkins or south beach
type diet?  Limiting carbs as much as possible over
fats?
Susan - 12 Mar 2007 19:36 GMT
>>You need fat and protein to sustain life and to build healthy cells and
>>immune and brain function.  You don't need starch and sugar, which raise
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> type diet?  Limiting carbs as much as possible over
> fats?

No, that's not what I said. Of the popular diet books re: low carb,
Protein Power is the only one that's scientifically accurate, but you
don't need a popular diet plan or book.

Just cut out starches and sugar (including fruit juices) and replace
with lots of colorful non starchy veggies, nuts, olives, dairy.  If you
can afford it, try to eat wild, not farmed fatty fish, and grass fed
meat and dairy products.

Watch triglycerides plummet within days, probably.

Susan
me@privacy.net - 13 Mar 2007 16:37 GMT
>Just cut out starches and sugar (including fruit juices) and replace
>with lots of colorful non starchy veggies, nuts, olives, dairy.  If you
>can afford it, try to eat wild, not farmed fatty fish, and grass fed
>meat and dairy products.
>
>Watch triglycerides plummet within days, probably.

<sigh>

Really?  I have to cut out fruit juices such as orange
juice in the AM?

fruit juices are loaded with sugar is that what you are
saying?

What abt CUTTING the fruit juice with half water?

I like my fruit juices in the AM..reason I ask

But am wiling to make changes if necessary
Susan - 13 Mar 2007 17:00 GMT
> <sigh>
>
> Really?  I have to cut out fruit juices such as orange
> juice in the AM?

> fruit juices are loaded with sugar is that what you are
> saying?

Uh, YEAH.  Do you read labels?  Fruit juice is used to rapidly RAISE bg
in hypoglycemic attacks for that reason.  It spikes bg like crazy.  So
does milk, due to lactose content.

> What abt CUTTING the fruit juice with half water?

Great, if you're a young, active, non diabetic.  Otherwise, 86 the juice.

> I like my fruit juices in the AM..reason I ask
>
> But am wiling to make changes if necessary

The morning is when blood glucose is higest and spikes the most after a
meal.  Most type 2s who test after breakfast learn to avoid all carbs
until the evening, due to bad effects on bg.

Have you tried learning to manage your DM using this invaluable piece of
advice?:

http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

If not, get started, but only if you want to avoid amputations,
blindness and kidney failure.

Susan
me@privacy.net - 13 Mar 2007 18:14 GMT
>Uh, YEAH.  Do you read labels?  Fruit juice is used to rapidly RAISE bg
>in hypoglycemic attacks for that reason.  It spikes bg like crazy.  So
>does milk, due to lactose content.

OK

What abt soy milk? It OK?

>Have you tried learning to manage your DM using this invaluable piece of
>advice?:

I don't have diabetes..... but will take your advice
Susan - 13 Mar 2007 21:27 GMT
> OK
>
> What abt soy milk? It OK?

READ THE LABEL.  COUNT THE CARBS.  THEN TEST.

> I don't have diabetes..... but will take your advice

If you have heart disease or severe dyslipidemia, you have insulin
resistance most likel, which should be treated the same as diabetes,
with carb restriction.

And exercise.

Susan
Joe Doe - 14 Mar 2007 00:00 GMT
> Really?  I have to cut out fruit juices such as orange
> juice in the AM?

> I like my fruit juices in the AM..reason I ask
>
> But am wiling to make changes if necessary

Eat the fruit and avoid juice.  You will get the benefit of all the
soluble fiber in fruit and it also will help fill you.  You can consume
a lot of calories on juice with not as much of a nutritional benefit.

On the saturated fat front.  I personally restrict my intake of
saturated fat to probably less than 10% of the calories I consume a day
- my total fat consumption is probably 30-40%.  I follow principles in
the Lyon Heart study for my own diet.  My saturated fat intake comes
from whatever comes naturally in generally healthy food - say olive oil
etc. + a limited amount of food high in sat fat).  For me that meant
restricting my cheese intake (I used to eat a lot of it).  Matti Narkia
has posted extensive links to articles showing risk of cheese is not
high for CVD.  I have not really had an opportunity to read these in
depth.  For myself, I am going with conventional wisdom over contrary
opinions.

Societies that eat very little fat (say Okinawans) & societies that eat
very large amount (say traditional Cretian biased towards olive oil)
have low incidence of cardiovascular disease.  Both these societies are
physically active and do not overeat.  My gut feeling is you are
probably OK if you eat a VERY varied diet biased towards fruits and
vegetables and do not over consume anything in excess or overeat.  

How much you eat is probably as important as what you eat.  For example
if you get say 25% of your calories from sat fat but are really
restricting your calorie intake severely (eating say 20% calories less
than you theoretically require) you may be better off than getting 10%
of your calories from sat fat but overeating.  I would definitely follow
the Chung general advice of being as lean as you can be.  Practically I
think I would buy a body fat monitoring scale if you can afford it and
shoot for a body fat percentage of 12-14% and make that a goal.  If you
do not want to spend money on toys, loose weight to a point that you
truly cannot pinch loose flab ANYWHERE  around your gut and you can see
your abdominal muscles defined as a six-pack (probably around 8% body
fat if you reach that goal).

Roland
me@privacy.net - 14 Mar 2007 19:59 GMT
> I would definitely follow
>the Chung general advice of being as lean as you can be.  Practically I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>your abdominal muscles defined as a six-pack (probably around 8% body
>fat if you reach that goal).

good advice!

I will give it a go!
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 15 Mar 2007 05:53 GMT
> > Really?  I have to cut out fruit juices such as orange
> > juice in the AM?
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> Roland

Would add that the goal here would be to lose all the visceral adipose
tissue (VAT) which is the source of pro-inflammatory cytokines that
cause disease.  The main barrier that keeps people from achieving this
by eating less is the false belief that "hunger is bad" as evident in
the following "case example:"

http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/overweight.asp

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit

As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).
http://HeartMDPhD.com/Love
Jim Chinnis - 12 Mar 2007 19:21 GMT
me@privacy.net wrote in part:

>I'm a healthy 48 yr old white male.   Somewhat
>overweight but not obese. Sedentary lifestyle

I don't think it's possible to be healthy and sedentary.

>I take 40 mgs simvastatin in evenings
>
>And 10 mg lisinopril in morning along with baby aspirin

Two powerful drugs for a young and healthy person to be taking!

>Will also start taking 1000 mg fish oil capsule daily
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>The stricter the better?

I don't know any good evidence that saturated fats in general should be
avoided or reduced as a proportion of your diet.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
me@privacy.net - 13 Mar 2007 16:39 GMT
>me@privacy.net wrote in part:
>
>>I'm a healthy 48 yr old white male.   Somewhat
>>overweight but not obese. Sedentary lifestyle
>
>I don't think it's possible to be healthy and sedentary.

Agree.  Will start exercising very soon as well.

>>I take 40 mgs simvastatin in evenings
>>
>>And 10 mg lisinopril in morning along with baby aspirin
>
>Two powerful drugs for a young and healthy person to be taking!

Lot of heart disease in my family

>I don't know any good evidence that saturated fats in general should be
>avoided or reduced as a proportion of your diet.

I'm worried abt saturated fats that are in chocolates,
even low fat ice cream has it
Jim Chinnis - 13 Mar 2007 17:44 GMT
me@privacy.net wrote in part:

>>me@privacy.net wrote in part:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Agree.  Will start exercising very soon as well.

Good.

>>>I take 40 mgs simvastatin in evenings
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Lot of heart disease in my family

You must also have high blood pressure (controlled with lisinopril).

>>I don't know any good evidence that saturated fats in general should be
>>avoided or reduced as a proportion of your diet.
>
>I'm worried abt saturated fats that are in chocolates,
>even low fat ice cream has it

Again, I don't know of any reason to avoid saturated fats. Many
nutritionists adise keeping them low, but I've been unable to find good
evidence for doing so. You said your lipids were good, so I assume your
triglycerides are low. Otherwise I'd advise avoiding the sugar in ice cream
more than the fat. You said you are overweight, and that's a big risk
factor, but it usually increases triglycerides and decreases HDL.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
me@privacy.net - 13 Mar 2007 18:15 GMT
>Again, I don't know of any reason to avoid saturated fats. Many
>nutritionists adise keeping them low, but I've been unable to find good
>evidence for doing so. You said your lipids were good, so I assume your
>triglycerides are low. Otherwise I'd advise avoiding the sugar in ice cream
>more than the fat. You said you are overweight, and that's a big risk
>factor, but it usually increases triglycerides and decreases HDL.

Yes my lipids and ratio are good.... BUT with
simvastatin as a control

I'm abt 20 lbs overweight probably
Jim Chinnis - 13 Mar 2007 19:21 GMT
me@privacy.net wrote in part:

>>Again, I don't know of any reason to avoid saturated fats. Many
>>nutritionists adise keeping them low, but I've been unable to find good
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>I'm abt 20 lbs overweight probably

If you are male, that means you are about 40 lb overweight--very dangerous.
If you are female, it means you are only 10 lb overweight.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
me@privacy.net - 14 Mar 2007 20:00 GMT
>If you are male, that means you are about 40 lb overweight--very dangerous.
>If you are female, it means you are only 10 lb overweight.
>--

I'm am 48 yr old male standing 5 foot 11 inches

I weigh in at 200lbs

Have medium build
Jim Chinnis - 15 Mar 2007 01:04 GMT
me@privacy.net wrote in part:

>>If you are male, that means you are about 40 lb overweight--very dangerous.
>>If you are female, it means you are only 10 lb overweight.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Have medium build

What is your waist measurement?
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
me@privacy.net - 15 Mar 2007 16:38 GMT
>What is your waist measurement?

36" waist in pants size
Port@nospam.invalid - 15 Mar 2007 02:06 GMT
>I'm am 48 yr old male standing 5 foot 11 inches
>I weigh in at 200lbs
>Have medium build

Just an FYI... I'm also 5' 11" medium build and between 168 - 170 lbs.
Dr Chung estimated that I may possibly be carrying between 13 - 15 lbs
of VAT
(Message-ID: <1154264150.105096.241430@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
.... and VAT is not a good thing (which is why jchinnis just inquired
re your waist size). Time to hit the ol' running track  ;-)

Port
Jim Chinnis - 15 Mar 2007 04:17 GMT
Port@nospam.invalid wrote in part:

>>I'm am 48 yr old male standing 5 foot 11 inches
>>I weigh in at 200lbs
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Port

There's actually some good evidence that men grossly underestimate their
adiposity...
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
me@privacy.net - 15 Mar 2007 16:40 GMT
>Time to hit the ol' running track  ;-)

Agree

But its gonna be tough to get as skinny as you guys
suggest

I mean..... I will try it..... but it sounds like its
REALLY gonna be that tough to get BMI index down THAT
low

Any suggestions on how to achieve such low body fat
levels?

I will need every trick and tip I can get
William Wagner - 15 Mar 2007 16:55 GMT
> >Time to hit the ol' running track  ;-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> I will need every trick and tip I can get

Stand upright and still.  Do not move except to align your spine so
that your skeleton and not muscle enables your position.  Pain will
guide you to the best posture.  Sometimes in the beginning it is useful
to lean up against a wall to ascertain what upright may be.  The less
movement the better in this work out.

Start with 2 minutes and work up.  This is easy on your joints but
difficult to do.

Not for everyone and is sometimes called standing meditation.

Bill

Signature

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http://www.ocutech.com/  High tech Vison aid
This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
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Joe Doe - 15 Mar 2007 19:06 GMT
> >Time to hit the ol' running track  ;-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> REALLY gonna be that tough to get BMI index down THAT
> low

I was referring to % body fat and not BMI. My assumption also was you
were a male (healthy target would be higher for a female).

The reason I used percent body fat is that if you are very muscular your
body fat can be low but your BMI could be quite high.  So a body builder
could have a BMI of say 30 and a body fat percentage of 8%.  Lance
Armstrong was 4% body fat while racing (4% is considered the "essential"
body fat level for a male).  Your body fat can either be measured by a
professional (using skinfold calipers, impedance or dexa or weighing
under water etc). Each method has its flaws, DEXA is probably the most
accurate.  At my University the sports center will measure you for $60
or so by DEXA.  The body fat scales by Tanita are OK for a normal Joe
and use impedance to calculate % body fat - not the most accurate but
better than nothing.  You could also buy inexpensive skinfold calipers
but it is difficult to self measure and measuring accurately is tricky.  
Alternatively just using common sense and the pinch test is a reasonable
approach.  Just shed pounds till you cant pinch fat around your belly.  

The benefit of knowing your body fat percent (even if the number is not
absolutely accurate) is that you can set a reasonable goal by plugging
the number into calculators at exrx.net.

http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/WeightBodyComp.html

Lets assume you are at 28% body fat now and 200 pounds.  Your target
weight would be 170 pounds to get to 15% body fat.  

You can keep recalibrating as you loose weight because unless you add
some weight training you are likely to loose some lean body mass as you
shed pounds.  

Secondly if you know your lean body mass you can get more accurate
estimates of how many calories you should eat.

Lastly, just do your best and realise this is a lifetime choice not a
short term choice.  Just make good choices by choosing healthy food,
exercising and eating moderately and let the weight come off naturally.

Roland
Susan - 15 Mar 2007 20:08 GMT
>>Time to hit the ol' running track  ;-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> REALLY gonna be that tough to get BMI index down THAT
> low

BMI isn't very useful, compared to waist hip ratio.

If you restrict carbs, you'll lose more fat from your middle,
proporitonally.

> Any suggestions on how to achieve such low body fat
> levels?
>
> I will need every trick and tip I can get

Just eat healthy whole foods that aren't starches, sugars or juices and
find a way to move your body.  If you're real ambitious, learn to lift
weights.

Susan
 
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