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Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / February 2007Pantethine - an informal poll
Has anyone here, other than Susan, had any luck raising their HDL using Pantethine? The studies Susan has cited sound great but, I've been taking 1350mg per day since early Aug '06 with no results that I can tell. HDL level was 30 in Aug and remains at 30 as of the other day. I'm just wondering what results others may be getting. And btw Susan, your comments are more than welcome here. I'm just wondering who else is trying the stuff besides you and me. Thanks, Port Has anyone here, other than Susan, had any luck raising their HDL using Pantethine? The studies Susan has cited sound great but, I've been taking 1350mg per day since early Aug '06 with no results that I can tell. HDL level was 30 in Aug and remains at 30 as of the other day. I'm just wondering what results others may be getting. And btw Susan, your comments are more than welcome here. I'm just wondering who else is trying the stuff besides you and me. Thanks, Port ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This book discusses the supplements that will help you: WHAT YOU MUST KNOW ABOUT STATIN DRUGS AND THEIR NATURAL ALTERNATIVES by Jay S. Cohen, M.D. > Has anyone here, other than Susan, had any luck raising their HDL > using Pantethine? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks, > Port Hi, I know that OldAl on the diabetic group got a nice uptick in his HDL. What is your diet like? My HDL doubled within two weeks of cutting out starch and sugar years ago. Then pantethine bumped it up a few more points to 70. It had been 34 for at least a decade. Susan Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Susan My HDL also rose quite significantly when I decreased my carbohydrate intake and increased fat. With exercise and moderate weight loss added in, I've raised it from around 32 to 68. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part: My HDL doubled within two weeks of > >cutting out starch and sugar years ago. Then pantethine bumped it up a > >few more points to 70. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA What level of exercise do you do and roughly what are the carb:protein:fat ratios you consume as a percentage of total calories? I ask because I try to burn about 3000 calories a week. If I do not consume a good deal of carbs I am really beat and cannot sustain it. My understanding is that specific genotypes show the response you describe - it is not necessarily translatable to everybody and could be bad for the people who do respond to lower levels of fat in their diet. Lastly, I assume all your other lipids are well controlled? Roland Not sure if you're asking me, or Jim. Be that as it may......... >What level of exercise do you do High. Or at least, as high as possible. >and roughly what are the >carb:protein:fat ratios you consume as a percentage of total calories? I've never counted. But I'd say protein is high, fat is lower, and carbs even lower than fat (no trans fat, not much saturated fat). >I ask because I try to burn about 3000 calories a week. If I do not >consume a good deal of carbs I am really beat and cannot sustain it. I know the feeling. ..... but I sustain it anyway :-( >Lastly, I assume all your other lipids are well controlled? LDL = 45 HDL = 30 TC = 92 TRIG = 85 Port Joe Doe <None@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in part: >> Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part: > My HDL doubled within two weeks of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >What level of exercise do you do and roughly what are the >carb:protein:fat ratios you consume as a percentage of total calories? I do 45 minutes of cardio each day at about 115 watts. (Sorry, physics is my background... I think that's only around 70 cal, but I did the math in my aging head.) I also do a fairly strenuous 45 minute workout in the weight room 3 times a week. Plus I walk a lot, often long distances across town, and am active, doing home remodeling, cycling, etc. I looked up my fat/pro/carb ratios from when I was keeping records on Fitday. Scanning it shows around 62% fat, 20% protein, 18% carb. I also have a couple of glasses of red wine most days. >I ask because I try to burn about 3000 calories a week. If I do not >consume a good deal of carbs I am really beat and cannot sustain it. > >My understanding is that specific genotypes show the response you >describe - it is not necessarily translatable to everybody and could be >bad for the people who do respond to lower levels of fat in their diet. I agree. My internist practically was jumping up and down when he called me with my lipid panel HDL results after I'd started low-carbing/High-fatting. >Lastly, I assume all your other lipids are well controlled? Scanning my records, here are my ranges over the past few years after changing my diet: Total: 121-146 LDL: 47-65 TGL: 69-130 HDL: 53-70 In 2001, I made the diet changes and the HDL began climbing. I was losing weight (ultimately losing about 30 lb), so attributing cause isn't straightforward. Plotting my HDL against my weight gives a very high correlation, lower weight meaning higher HDL. After my HDL rose, my internist put me on atorvastatin 10 mg due to a wretched family history and a bad coronary artery CI scan (calcium score). That made no change in my HDL, but made a big drop in LDL. For most of my life, my lipids ran something like: tot 173, ldl 96, tg 226, hdl 32. I suspect that's what killed all my male relatives early and my female relatives just a bit later. There is *no* history of any diabetes in my family (nor do i have it). >Roland -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu> wrote in part: >I do 45 minutes of cardio each day at about 115 watts. (Sorry, physics is my >background... I think that's only around 70 cal, but I did the math in my >aging head.) I also do a fairly strenuous 45 minute workout in the weight >room 3 times a week. Plus I walk a lot, often long distances across town, >and am active, doing home remodeling, cycling, etc. Oops. I checked the cardio machine after my 45 minutes today and it said I'd burned 370 calories. So 7 x 370 = 2592 cal/week just from cardio in the gym. I'm 62 and no athlete, had heart valve surgery in 1988, so it looks pretty easy to burn an extra 10000 cal / week from moderate exercise. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA Sounds like you are exercising at a fairly vigorous level - 500 calories per hour. I probably consume 30-40% fat(mostly mono, low saturated, 2% or so of omega-3), 40-50% carbs and 20% protein. I find it interesting that if I go down in carbs I am physically drained and you are not with roughly equivalent caloric expenditures. For my formal sessions I work out at a slightly higher intensity (~ 600 calories/hr about 7.5-8 METS as a base and then go up to ~900 calories/hr about 12.5 METS for about 50-70% of the time depending on how I am feeling. Roland > I looked up my fat/pro/carb ratios from when I was keeping records on > Fitday. Scanning it shows around 62% fat, 20% protein, 18% carb. I also > have a couple of glasses of red wine most days. > Scanning my records, here are my ranges over the past few years after > changing my diet: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > TGL: 69-130 > HDL: 53-70 > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA The results certainly look good. What prompted you to raise your fat levels so much? Do you know you have a high triglyceride response to carbs? Some other reason? Secondly, are you concerned that the high fats themselves may be a risk factor with respect to endothelial function etc. For example people report lots of symptoms of endothelial dysfunction post high fat meals (even "good" fats). I have not followed this too carefully but a search for "postprandial lipaemia" will pull out a lot of the relevant research. Lastly, for people being inspired to move in your direction it is clear that some people are very sensitive to fat & cholesterol levels in diet. Specifically if you are homozygous for the E4 variant of ApoE gene (about 5% of the population) high fat will be very bad for you. ApoE4 attaches to VLDL particles and when these particles return to the liver signals the liver to stop metabolizing lipids and high levels can accumulate in circulation. It also enhances fat absorbtion by the gut. ApoE2 (1% of the population) acts in the opposite way - a person homozygous for this absorbs fat poorly and the fat absorbed is cleared from circulation because this variant does not shut down liver metabolism of fat. The majority of the population have ApoE3 which is intermediate in behaviour. Heterozygotes ApoE3/2(10% of population) or ApoE 3/4 (20% of population) tend towards the behaviour of the homozygote. So at least 25% of the population will benefit from a low fat diet. In general, trial with low fat and monitoring triglyceride response will clue you into how low you can go (If triglycerides do not rise with low fat, high carb then low fat is better for you or if triglycerides do rise with low fat you can raise your fat level (with "good" fats) to a level where the triglyceride response is muted. The triglyceride response is followed because it can influence LDL particle size & subclass & having them low is beneficial. As Jim indicated raising fat levels with good fats has the potential to not influence LDL levels substantially but could raise HDL levels improving your ratios. Raising with saturated fat will increase both LDL and HDL and not improve your ratio. Roland Joe Doe <None@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in part: >> I looked up my fat/pro/carb ratios from when I was keeping records on >> Fitday. Scanning it shows around 62% fat, 20% protein, 18% carb. I also [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >What prompted you to raise your fat levels so much? Do you know you >have a high triglyceride response to carbs? Some other reason? For years I had tried to lose weight by reducing fat (and quantity, of course). Any losses were always shortlived and my lipids were bad in terms of HDL and triglycerides. I simply tried reducing carbs, mostly by eliminating refined carbs and things like potatoes and rice. Since I still had to eat, my fat and protein rose accordingly. I didn't want to pump the meat up a lot, so i tended to eat more salads, hence more olive oil. I lost weight fairly effortlessly, and it has mostly stayed off, even though I have reduced the fat and increased (low-glycemic) carbs over the past year or so. >Secondly, are you concerned that the high fats themselves may be a risk >factor with respect to endothelial function etc. For example people >report lots of symptoms of endothelial dysfunction post high fat meals >(even "good" fats). I have not followed this too carefully but a search >for "postprandial lipaemia" will pull out a lot of the relevant research. I'm aware of the issue, but I suspect you know at lot more about it from the you are writing. I decided that weight loss trumped everything else. Until research shows that I am better off with 35 extra pounds, mostly around the middle, and lower fat intake, I'll keep on doing what I am doing. >Lastly, for people being inspired to move in your direction it is clear >that some people are very sensitive to fat & cholesterol levels in diet. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >homozygote. So at least 25% of the population will benefit from a low >fat diet. Wouldn't the fact that my fasting triglycerides were always high, even on relatively low-fat diets, pretty much rule out my being ApoE4/4 or maybe even ApoE4/3? My family heart disease problem affected most strongly my paternal grandfather and his 10 children, including my father. But it has extended to a good fraction of the grandchildren. My father's heart disease advanced rapidly although he was on an extremely low-fat diet. Neither he nor any of his siblings had any problem with weight. I seem to have gotten that (in very mild form) from my mother's side. Too bad we can't have genetic testing done cheaply. >In general, trial with low fat and monitoring triglyceride response will >clue you into how low you can go (If triglycerides do not rise with low [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >with saturated fat will increase both LDL and HDL and not improve your >ratio. Thanks for the great discussion. >Roland -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > Joe Doe <None@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in part: > Heterozygotes ApoE3/2(10% of population) or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > relatively low-fat diets, pretty much rule out my being ApoE4/4 or maybe > even ApoE4/3? I think too many other markers (sedentary lifestyle, obesity, diabetes etc. + ? genetic factors) will influence all these so it is not easy to come to any conclusions based on one fact in isolation. I was not suggesting you were at risk - just trying to let people get fully informed before they went to any extreme - either very low fat or very high fat. > Too bad we can't have genetic testing done cheaply. Genetic testing raises other ethical, psychological and practical issues: ApoE4 is also a marker for susceptibility to Alzheimer's. Many people will not want this information and be unable to cope with it (even though it is just a marker not a cause or guarantee that you will get it). Second if your insurance company pays for this test it will go on your record and might adversely affect future choices. Lastly, knowing this you may be better able to plan for the future (buy long term care insurance for example). > Thanks for the great discussion. nd > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA I have enjoyed it too - we all have to make real time choices with incomplete and changing data and this is no easy task. I have actually benefited from your posts too. Your general questioning of the sat fat question has forced me to try and pay more attention to it. I am more cautious by nature and stick to the party line on this but am nonetheless open to changing my opinion. Roland > Genetic testing raises other ethical, psychological and practical > issues: ApoE4 is also a marker for susceptibility to Alzheimer's. Many > people will not want this information and be unable to cope with it > (even though it is just a marker not a cause or guarantee that you will > get it). Why not? More of the current literature indicates that it's preventable by avoiding high glucose. Since high insulin levels also promote inflammation which is also implicated in AD, folks might want to know that low carb and exercise can prevent, delay or slow progression of AD. Glucose is the single biggest contributor to dementia, it now appears. Susan Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Susan Citations? ;-) -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > Citations? ;-) > -- You can so readily google up the glucose/AD/dementia connection that I don't feel compelled to dig out my other stuff. I'll explain more about the insulin/inflammation connection, which is very well established (we've discussed the many abstracts I have on this in the past) but I never understood the mechanisms til my recent and continuing adrenal crisis. Insulin inhibits cortisol binding globulin; this means that even if one's cortisol is adequate (in my case, way too high), one can experience sx and signs of adrenal insufficiency (in my case, Addisonian crisis). This will be more pronounced in those with any form of glucocorticoid resistance. My Addisonian crisis evolved during my year on an insulin sensitier, metformin. The longer I took it, and finally, with a higher dose, the more adrenally insufficient I became, until finally, I was in full blown crisis. Obviously, this isn't going to happen to everyone or to most to this degree, but you will find that insulin does inhibit cortisol transport to cells, thus raising inflammation (and cortisol levels and glucose, ast the body tries to compensate. Thus a vicious cycle is born. Susan > > Citations? ;-) > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > to cells, thus raising inflammation (and cortisol levels and glucose, > ast the body tries to compensate. Thus a vicious cycle is born. One can't help but wonder if your Addisonian crisis is a consequence of your unwise decision to low-carb. Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://EmoryCardiology.com > Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Susan My Wife ingrid takes Metformin. What is a Addisonian Crisis. Sort of sounds like some folks can't handle statins ( me) and your post confuses me. (Offers potential understanding.) This in particular..... >The longer I took it, and finally, > with a higher dose, the more adrenally insufficient I became, until > finally, I was in full blown crisis. Sounds like me with incremental statin titration. Susan.. What did you do?  SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. > My Wife ingrid takes Metformin. What is a Addisonian Crisis. Sort of > sounds like some folks can't handle statins ( me) and your post > confuses me. (Offers potential understanding.) You can easily google up what Addisonian crisis is. I'll share with you that the onset for me was gradual and insidious, beginning with fatigue on the drug. progressing to worsening energy, vague aches and pains, loss of appetite that became intense nause, and the end stage involved a LOT of muscle cramps/spasms. > This in particular..... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Susan.. What did you do? I quit the drug and was able to eat a meal and sleep at night for the first time the next day. I don't think what happened to me is common; I think it unmasked familial glucocorticoid resistance syndrome. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > loss of appetite that became intense nause, and the end stage involved a > LOT of muscle cramps/spasms. Sounds like what lipitor did to me minus the Nausea and a issue with aching joints. Took about 3 years to notice a decline the an increase in dosage and I saw the light. Enough! > > This in particular..... > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I quit the drug and was able to eat a meal and sleep at night for the > first time the next day. Such a fast acknowledge of a side effect. Great! My healing is taking years. After CABG I did not know what to think would be normal. Still do not. > I don't think what happened to me is common; I think it unmasked > familial glucocorticoid resistance syndrome. I don't think what happened to me is common either but I am documenting it all for my extended family. > Susan Best ! Bill SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. > Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA A few examples of evidence to the contrary: For the layman: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/830289.stm Or: Dement Geriatr Cogn Disord. 2006;22(1):99-107 Laitinen MH, Ngandu T, Rovio S, Helkala EL, Uusitalo U, Viitanen M, Nissinen A,Tuomilehto J, Soininen H, Kivipelto M. Aging Research Center, Division of Geriatric Epidemiology, Neurotec, Karolinska Institutet, Stockholm, Sweden. BACKGROUND: Lifestyle and vascular factors have been linked to dementia and Alzheimer's disease (AD), but the role of dietary fats in the development of dementia is less clear. METHODS: Participants were derived from random, population-based samples initially studied in midlife (1972, 1977, 1982, or 1987). Fat intake from spreads and milk products was assessed using a structured questionnaire and an interview. After an average follow-up of 21 years, a total of 1,449 (73%) individuals aged 65-80 years participated in the re-examination in 1998. Altogether 117 persons had dementia. RESULTS: Moderate intake of polyunsaturated fats at midlife decreased the risk of dementia even after adjustment for demographic variables, other subtypes of fats, vascular risk factors and disorders, and apolipoprotein E (ApoE) genotype (OR 0.40, CI 0.17-0.94 for the 2nd quartile vs. 1st quartile), whereas saturated fat intake was associated with an increased risk (OR 2.45, CI 1.10-5.47 for the 2nd quartile). The associations were seen only among the ApoE epsilon4 carriers. CONCLUSIONS: Moderate intake of unsaturated fats at midlife is protective, whereas a moderate intake of saturated fats may increase the risk of dementia and AD, especially among ApoE epsilon4 carriers. Thus, dietary interventions may potentially modify the risk of dementia, particularly among genetically susceptible individuals. Joe Doe <None@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in part: >> Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] >potentially modify the risk of dementia, particularly among genetically >susceptible individuals. This suggests that the genetically increased risk of Alzheimers (from ApoE4) is due to ApoE4 gene effects on fat metabolism. (Yeah, getting a little off topic.) -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > This suggests that the genetically increased risk of Alzheimers (from ApoE4) > is due to ApoE4 gene effects on fat metabolism. (Yeah, getting a little off > topic.) > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA A proposed mechanism is outlined in this review: Apolipoprotein E Recycling Implications for Dyslipidemia and Atherosclerosis. Arteriosclerosis, Thrombosis, and Vascular Biology. 2006;26:442. I have full text access but I do not believe it is universal. Too much material to cover succinctly. Roland Joe Doe <None@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in part: >> This suggests that the genetically increased risk of Alzheimers (from ApoE4) >> is due to ApoE4 gene effects on fat metabolism. (Yeah, getting a little off [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Roland I have a copy, but it is outside any areas of expertise I have. I notice the authors refer to the effect of statins on reducing onset of AD: "A direct connection between the development of AD and cholesterol metabolism arises from the observation that treatment with cholesterol lowering drugs remarkably reduced the onset of AD.72" Ref 72 is Jick H, Zornberg GL, Jick SS, Seshadri S, Drachman DA. Statins and the risk of dementia. Lancet. 2000;356:16271631. I think that (2000) result has not panned out. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > I have a copy, but it is outside any areas of expertise I have. I notice the > authors refer to the effect of statins on reducing onset of AD: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA Yes I know there is controversy about the mechanism of statin effects in AD. I do not follow the AD literature closely (I usually forget it anyway ;). Since you have easy full text access you might also want to look at a review by Ordovas that is more closely linked to the topic at hand raising HDL. In this review he discusses a few other loci that depending on the gene have differential effects on HDL levels when you raise PUFA intake. Ordovas JM. Proc Nutr Soc. 2004 Feb;63(1):145-52 The quest for cardiovascular health in the genomic era: nutrigenetics and plasma lipoproteins. Roland Joe Doe <None@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in part: >> I have a copy, but it is outside any areas of expertise I have. I notice the >> authors refer to the effect of statins on reducing onset of AD: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >The quest for cardiovascular health in the genomic era: nutrigenetics >and plasma lipoproteins. This is available free on the web from the link on the PubMed page. Very interesting. And Ordovas is into a lot of fascinating areas. Thank you! -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > Joe Doe <None@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA I guess my genetic makeup is of import. Hmmm I always thought so. Partly.....May ;)) . Bill Notice Feb 2004 and the sort of quiet response only noted here. Thanks Folks! .............. "Now, the characterization of individuals who may respond better to one type of dietary recommendation than another can be begun. Thus, a low-fat low-cholesterol strategy may be particularly efficacious in lowering the plasma cholesterol levels of those subjects carrying the apoE4 allele at the APOE gene. HDL-cholesterol (HDL-C) levels are also modulated by dietary, behavioural and genetic factors." "This knowledge should lead to successful dietary recommendations partly based on genetic factors that may help to reduce cardiovascular risk more efficiently than the current universal recommendations." .......................... 1: Proc Nutr Soc. 2004 Feb;63(1):145-52. Links The quest for cardiovascular health in the genomic era: nutrigenetics and plasma lipoproteins. € Ordovas JM. Nutrition and Genomics Laboratory, JM-USDA-Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University, Boston, MA 02111, USA. jordov01@tufts.edu Nutrigenetics and nutrigenomics are promising multidisciplinary fields that focus on studying the interactions between nutritional factors, genetic factors and health outcomes. Their goal is to achieve more efficient individual dietary intervention strategies aimed at preventing disease, improving quality of life and achieving healthy aging. Our studies, and those of many other investigators, using population-based and intervention studies have found evidence for interactions between dietary factors, genetic variants and biochemical markers of CVD. Now, the characterization of individuals who may respond better to one type of dietary recommendation than another can be begun. Thus, a low-fat low-cholesterol strategy may be particularly efficacious in lowering the plasma cholesterol levels of those subjects carrying the apoE4 allele at the APOE gene. HDL-cholesterol (HDL-C) levels are also modulated by dietary, behavioural and genetic factors. It has been reported that the effect of PUFA intake on HDL-C concentrations is modulated by an APOA1 genetic polymorphism. Thus, subjects carrying the A allele at the -75 G/A polymorphism show an increase in HDL-C with increased intakes of PUFA, whereas those homozygotes for the more common G allele have the expected lowering of HDL-C levels with increased intake of PUFA. Variability at the hepatic lipase gene is also associated with interactions between intake of fat and HDL-C concentrations that could shed some light on the different abilities of certain ethnic groups to adapt to new nutritional environments. This knowledge should lead to successful dietary recommendations partly based on genetic factors that may help to reduce cardiovascular risk more efficiently than the current universal recommendations. PMID: 15070444 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. This is a paper with great insights: "These studies should help to put to rest the heated debate about the suitability of the traditional approach of recommending low-fat low-cholesterol diets for the entire population v. other recommendations based on the fact that some populations with relatively high intakes of non-saturated fats have very low rates of CVD and other chronic disorders (Hu, 2003). Individuals that may respond better to one type of recommendation than another can now begin to be characterized under the controlled conditions of scientific research." It goes on to characterize some of what is known now (2004). This really underscores how important it is to try different regimes and then test and try again until you find what works for you. I was also struck by Fig. 1 (I can't reproduce it here), which shows how dramatically HDL responds to different amounts of polyunsaturated fatty acids. In different genotypes, it tends to vary by 50% as the PUFA is doubled or halved! So why on earth are pharmaceutical firms investing bazillions on finding a drug to boost HDL?! It looks to me like cardiovascular disease could be knocked way down by just testing a few different diets on patients and then having them use the one that produces the best change in lipids! -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA Jim Chinnis <jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu> wrote in part: >I was also struck by Fig. 1 (I can't reproduce it here), which shows how >dramatically HDL responds to different amounts of polyunsaturated fatty >acids. In different genotypes, it tends to vary by 50% as the PUFA is >doubled or halved! Correction: The impact is somewhat less than 50%. (It is smallest in those who have HDL fall with increased PUFA.) -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA The key fat in the diet to avoiding alzheimer's is DHA -- maybe a gram or more per day. Do a search on pubmed.gov with keywords:DHA alzheimer's Speaking of pantethine there is good theory that it can boost BDNF. Fish oils with a high DHA/EPA ratio are beginning to hit the market. DHA but not EPA appears to increase lipoprotein particle size. Both tend to drive down triglycerides. http://www.iherb.com/store/ProductDetails.aspx?c=Herbs&pid=NWY-15682 >> Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] >potentially modify the risk of dementia, particularly among genetically >susceptible individuals. > What prompted you to raise your fat levels so much? Do you know you > have a high triglyceride response to carbs? Some other reason? Triglycerides are a direct measure of dietary carbs. They go down very rapidly once carbs are cut. Susan > What level of exercise do you do and roughly what are the > carb:protein:fat ratios you consume as a percentage of total calories? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Roland I didn't do exercise when I got those results. Susan jchinnis wrote: >My HDL also rose quite significantly when I decreased my carbohydrate intake >and increased fat. "Increased fat" how? Red meat? (I've been looking for an excuse to eat a steak). And which fats? Saturated? Unsaturated? Both? Port Port@nospam.invalid wrote in part: >jchinnis wrote: >>My HDL also rose quite significantly when I decreased my carbohydrate intake [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Port I eat red meat about once a week, but I never buy supermarket meat (sometimes from Whole Foods). I buy locally and get beef from pastured cattle. The fat content is lower and of a healthier type. Beef, lamb, pork is probably the order of predominance. Increased fat is mostly from olive oil, nuts, and cheese (I try to get sheep/goat cheese and avoid the dairy cow-factory stuff). I don't eat bacon and pork sausage or such except very rarely, but that's not so much because of the admonitions to avoid saturated fat, which i find unconvincing. But, aside from cheeses, most saturated fats come from things I don't eat for other reasons. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > jchinnis wrote: > >My HDL also rose quite significantly when I decreased my carbohydrate intake [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Port Monounsaturated would be the safest to increase - olive and canola oil, nuts, walnuts, avocado. Omega-3s to about 2% of your total calories. Roland >>jchinnis wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Roland All unpolluted fats are healthy and safe, including saturated. Unless you eat them with starches and sugar; that causes oxidation an promotes inflammation. Susan >unpolluted fats "Unpolluted" how? i.e. is that the difference between grass fed vs feed lot beef? Port >>unpolluted fats > > "Unpolluted" how? > i.e. is that the difference between grass fed vs feed lot beef? Yes, that and between hydrogenated transfats and non hydrogenated. Susan >What is your diet like? Limited.... lots of rabbit food. But it's a sort of Mediterranean diet without the potatoes, bread, and certain fruits. No sugar, no soft drinks, or that sort of thing. For meat I eat chicken, turkey, and fish. That's off the top of my head but there's more .... or maybe I should say there's more don'ts than do's. Port > >What is your diet like? > > Limited.... **lots** of rabbit food. **emphasis** added. > But it's a sort of Mediterranean diet without the potatoes, bread, and > certain fruits. No sugar, no soft drinks, or that sort of thing. For > meat I eat chicken, turkey, and fish. > That's off the top of my head but there's more .... or maybe I should > say there's more don'ts than do's. It is clear that your problem is the amount. See **emphasis** above. May the following help you lose the visceral adipose tissue (VAT) that is lowering your HDL by way of systemic vascular inflammation: http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/overweight.asp Low HDL is classic for metabolic syndrome (MetS). Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://EmoryCardiology.com Port wrote: >> Limited.... **lots** of rabbit food. >**emphasis** added. >It is clear that your problem is the amount. oh!.... I meant "lots" as a percentage of my total intake. Not necessarily "lots" in the total volume sense. However, you're right in that I may be eating more than 2 pounds/day. I've never actually weighed my food except as a part of me after I've already eaten it. Anyhow.... point well taken. >May the following help you lose the visceral adipose tissue (VAT) that >is lowering your HDL by way of systemic vascular inflammation: >http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/overweight.asp I especially like this part: "When you find yourself unable to put up with your hunger in between smaller meals, it would be wise for you to find things to do instead of things to eat". With minor alteration, that could also be good advice for a smoker's group (find something to do instead of something to smoke). I don't smoke btw, just thought it a good idea. >Low HDL is classic for metabolic syndrome (MetS). yeah, that's what I worry about :-( Port > > neighbor Port wrote: > >> Limited.... **lots** of rabbit food. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > weighed my food except as a part of me after I've already eaten it. > Anyhow.... point well taken. Simply here to help by informing you. > >May the following help you lose the visceral adipose tissue (VAT) that > >is lowering your HDL by way of systemic vascular inflammation: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I don't smoke btw, just thought it a good idea. Weight gain from overeating is an issue with many folks trying to quit smoking. Again, the root problem is the false belief that "Hunger is bad." Becoming healthier from quitting smoking necessarily means that folks will become much hungrier. Super healthy folks are super hungry. > >Low HDL is classic for metabolic syndrome (MetS). > > yeah, that's what I worry about :-( Lose the VAT, cure the MetS. You now know how. Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://EmoryCardiology.com >Weight gain from overeating is an issue with many folks trying to quit >smoking. Absolutely agreed. >Again, the root problem is the false belief that "Hunger is >bad." Even without hunger, they have an uncontrollable psychological urge to occupy their hands and to stuff things in their mouth. In other words, picking up food and stuffing it. Same with drinking. A "smoker" at a party will, out of habit, do the following: Puff - slurp - puff -slurp - puff - slurp- puff - slurp - and so on. But a recent X-smoker, out of habit will, at the exact same rate: Slurp -slurp - slurp - slurp - slurp - slurp - slurp - resulting in twice the alcohol consumption, double the intoxication, both much to the surprise of the new x-smoker. (just a little tip for any soon to be x-smokers out there... so watch it lol!) Port > >Weight gain from overeating is an issue with many folks trying to quit > >smoking. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Port We used to say ( Who ever we was) that we all have vices. The secret was to to chose less harmful ones or at least rotate though them. Aging hippie stuff. French Writer Balzac said the only vice was wanting to know every thing. I smoke on rare occasions when my Moroccan future daughter in-law offers. I drink when I feel like it and cook /garden/ fix house every day. I consider all of this fun. Tagine with chicken and preserved lemon heating up now. Bill SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > (just a little tip for any soon to be x-smokers out there... so watch > it lol!) Without appetite/hunger, the urge to put things into the mouth would be gone. "Hunger is good." "Blessed are you who hunger now for you will be satisfied." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 6:21) Amen. What is harmful is the false belief that "Hunger is bad." It is the latter that causes the irrational and uncontrollable compulsion to overeat. Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://EmoryCardiology.com >>What is your diet like? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Port Could you be more specific? There are a number of meditteranean diets. Susan >>>What is your diet like? Port wrote: >> Limited.... lots of rabbit food. >> But it's a sort of Mediterranean diet without the potatoes, bread, and >> certain fruits. No sugar, no soft drinks, or that sort of thing. For >> meat I eat chicken, turkey, and fish. Susan: >Could you be more specific? Do I have too?? It's making me hungry :-( >There are a number of meditteranean diets. And mine's not exactly like any of them (that's why I said "sort of"). I'm a single guy, hate to cook, so that leaves out anything difficult. So what I've mentioned up there is most of what I live on. Maybe an occasional "heart healthy wrap" from SubWay, and Green Salads, lots of them, with Olive oil & vinegar dressing, almonds or grapes or an apple for snacks, yolkless eggs for breakfast sometimes or maybe Oatmeal, Green Tea to drink and decaf coffee. Vegetables are usually Brussell Sprouts, Broccoli, Green Beans, or similar. And I blend up a smoothie occasionally with bananas, Soy milk, berries of some sort, and Protein Powder. That's about all I can think of offhand. Was there anything in particular you were wondering about? Port > >>>What is your diet like? > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Port Cook this Port! Cuban Sandwich 1 loaf French bread ( I use freshest I can get) Mayonnaise Dijon mustard (Any) 1/4 pound thinly sliced ham ( I like two different types) 4 slices Swiss cheese Kosher dill pickles, sliced ( I like bread and Butter) Butter, for grilling ( Yea I know) Slice the bread in half lengthwise. Spread one half with mayonnaise and the other with mustard. Layer the ham and Swiss cheese on 1 half of the bread. Layer the pickle slices over the cheese. Top with the other bread half. In a large skillet over medium-high heat, heat enough butter to coat the cooking surface. Place the sandwich in the pan and weight with another heavy pan or a brick wrapped in foil and grill until the cheese is melted. Cut the loaf to make 4 sandwiches. ........ I think this is under two LBS :)) Bill SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. >Cook this Port! Sounds scrumptious! But the bread.... isn't that a starch? Susan says I should substitute fat for starch. Could y'all work that out amongst yourselves please? >Mayonnaise Mayonaise?? I should eat mayonaise?? >Place the sandwich in the pan and weight with >another heavy pan or a brick wrapped in foil and grill until the cheese >is melted. Cut the loaf to make 4 sandwiches. >I think this is under two LBS :)) aha! good. So the brick doesn't count against the weight limit then, right? ;-) Seriously, that sounds great. Maybe I can get my girlfriend to whip one up when I go over there this weekend. She's from New Orleans. Those Yats are all born knowing how to cook over there ;-) Port > Mayonnaise A little once in awhile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayonnaise >But the bread.... isn't that a starch? A little once in awhile. My Cuban has a light layer of Mayo and a light layer of Mustard. Get the best quality of Ham possible. Tear out the FRESH roll's soft parts some if you must. But most important enjoy ! My dad and I share one about twice a month. He is 86 and likes to add more mayo to his. I use a Foreman grill. Bill SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. > And mine's not exactly like any of them (that's why I said "sort of"). > I'm a single guy, hate to cook, so that leaves out anything difficult. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Port Well, it's impossible to say how your diet may be influencing your HDL or other parameters, since you don't offer ratios or percentages for macronutrients. If you're eating 30% fat or below, odds are you could raise your HDL by substituting fats for starches. And by eating grass fed meat and dairy instead of feedlot raised. Susan Susan: >you don't offer ratios or percentages for >macronutrients. oh! There's a reason for that. I, unfortunately, have no clue what they are (I operate, more or less, on the seat-o-the-pants method). >If you're eating 30% fat or below, odds are you could raise your HDL by >substituting fats for starches. I think <30% fat would be a good bet. But, what starches?? I don't eat any bread or potatoes. Is the "wrap" around a Subway sandwich a starch? I'd hate to give that up. It holds my sandwich together :-( >And by eating grass fed meat and dairy >instead of feedlot raised. I don't eat feedlot raised beef. In fact I don't eat any beef at all (unless I cheat.... but that's only once in a blue moon). Where does one find beef, other than on the hoof in a pasture, that's known to be grass fed? I'd dearly love a steak once in awhile. Port > >>>What is your diet like? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Do I have too?? It's making me hungry :-( The frown indicates that you still remain brainwashed to falsely believe that "hunger is bad." Until you overcome this and know/believe in your heart that 'hunger is good," you will not be able to eat less down to the optimal amount that will cause you to lose all the visceral adipose tissue. Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://EmoryCardiology.com >> >>>What is your diet like? >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >good," you will not be able to eat less down to the optimal amount >that will cause you to lose all the visceral adipose tissue. Poor Chung, no one pays any attention when he tries his hand at an on-topic post. Signature"To err is human, to cover it up is Weasel" -- Dogbert > Has anyone here, other than Susan, had any luck raising their HDL > using Pantethine? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks, > Port Hi port! Hope all is well! I use about 600MG Pantethine along with about 1000 MG Niacin each day. My HDL is about 70. I'd like to exercise more but that will take me time due to muscle loss. anyway look at http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/browse_frm/thread/be254 060f0d84214/b6590fa321e1f191?lnk=st&q=hdl+cholesterol+wagner&rnum=1#b6590 fa321e1f191 or http://preview.tinyurl.com/39wt43 Bill CABG 4 9/14/01 SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. >anyway look at >http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/browse_frm/thread/be254 >060f0d84214/b6590fa321e1f191?lnk=st&q=hdl+cholesterol+wagner&rnum=1#b6590 >fa321e1f191 >or >http://preview.tinyurl.com/39wt43 Yes, thanks, I've long since had that thread saved and locked. .... and for those who prefer using a Newsreader rather than a Web Browser/Google, the thread begins with Message-ID: <PainInAss__williamwag-5C8373.10541522092005@news.supernews.com> It's worth the read. Port > Has anyone here, other than Susan, had any luck raising their HDL > using Pantethine? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks, > Port I do not use it. Have you tried Niacin? Roland >Have you tried Niacin? Yep. Been on 500mg/day for about a year now. Port wrote: >500mg/day Ooops... make that 1000mg. Each pill is 500mg, and I take two. > Port wrote: > >500mg/day > > Ooops... make that 1000mg. Each pill is 500mg, and I take two. I think one of the unfair realities is that for all the interventions (niacin, exercise etc.) the response is higher for people with already high HDL levels. If you are taking the niacin under medical supervision there is scope to increase the dose as long as your liver enzymes are monitored. It has an effect on lowering Lp(a) and for this application they need quite high doses (more than 2-3 grams). Roland >> Port wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Roland That's just not so. The folks with the worst numbers are the most insulin resistant and will get the most benefit from low carb. My HDL was 34 for at least a decade and went up to 68 within two weeks of cutting starches and sugar out of my diet. Susan > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > That's just not so. The folks with the worst numbers are the most > insulin resistant and will get the most benefit from low carb. Well I posted about a group of people for whom high fat is not a good approach (ApoE4 homozygotes). Secondly, many factors can influence HDL levels including known genetic factors and some will be totally unresponsive to any current intervention diet or otherwise. For example Hypoalphaproteinemia is in this class. Roland > > x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Roland Jim I continue to read Rolands posts. Hypoalphaproteinemia however is very difficult for my little brain. Still I prefer to dumb up vs dumb down. I have to ask what does it mean and why not say in the post up front? Bill Yin Teh Wu Wie. See I can be obscure too. Means trying to do good in the present moment. ........................................... http://content.nhiondemand.com/moh/media/HC1.asp?objID=100227&ctype=hc Hyperbetalipoproteinemia patients have increased hepatic apolipoprotein production with acceptable LDL and triglyceride levels, but still have a positive family history of premature CHD. Hypoalphaproteinemia is a condition involving the so-called "isolated low HDL" patients. Little is known about the cause, but it is associated with increased CHD, obesity, smoking and lack of exercise. Evidence of drug effectiveness is lacking for these patients; therefore, lifestyle changes that increase HDL and lower LDL are most often advocated.(2) SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. > Well I posted about a group of people for whom high fat is not a good > approach (ApoE4 homozygotes). I recall requesting such testing a few years ago and I was in the bad phenotype at the time. > Secondly, many factors can influence HDL levels including known genetic > factors and some will be totally unresponsive to any current > intervention diet or otherwise. For example Hypoalphaproteinemia is in > this class. I don't believe I saw citations, just assertions. Susan > x-no-archive: yes . > > Secondly, many factors can influence HDL levels including known genetic > > factors and some will be totally unresponsive to any current [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Susan For my original point: Does Exercise Increase HDL Cholesterol in Those Who Need It the Most? Paul D. Thompson; Daniel J. Rader Arteriosclerosis, Thrombosis, and Vascular Biology. 2001;21:1097. http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/21/7/1097 which is an editorial on a paper that is linked and also has free access. To illustrate one of many genetic abnormalities that have low HDL see reviews at bottom. Tangier disease for example which is a physical mutation a ABCA1 transporter and will not respond to interventions. There are many other examples showing how nuanced lipid biochemistry is: ApoA1 Milano has very low HDL & high triglycerides and no artheroschlerotic effect and is in fact protective!!! The same is true for LCAT mutants. You can also find ApoA mutants that are artheroschhlerotic. Your unshakable belief that carbohydrate restriction is the answer to all life's problems is not shared by me. I do think it might be wise to not swing to any extreme (extreme low carb or low fat). Smoking, obesity, sedentary lifestyle, steroids, kidney disease, thyroid disease, beta-blockers are some of the many factors that can affect HDL levels. To reduce everything to carbohydrates is too simplistic. I doubt I can change your mind and so will not bother to provide citations as proof for these factors. 1: Curr Opin Cardiol. 2004 Jul;19(4):380-4. Genetic determinants of low high-density lipoprotein cholesterol. Miller M, Zhan M. Department of Medicine, University of Maryland Hospital and Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Baltimore, Maryland, USA. mmiller@heart.umaryland.edu PURPOSE OF REVIEW: High-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C) has been well established as an inverse predictor of coronary heart disease (CHD), and in recent years, investigations have focused on the genetic regulation of high-density lipoprotein. Although numerous candidate genes contribute to the low HDL-C phenotype, their impact on CHD is heterogeneous, reflecting diverse gene-gene interactions and gene-environmental relationships. This review summarizes recent data involving HDL regulatory genes and their role in atherothrombosis. RECENT FINDINGS: The primary genetic determinants associated with relative HDL-C deficiency states are the ATP binding cassette protein, ABCA1; apolipoprotein (APO) A1; and lecithin cholesteryl acyl transferase. Other potentially important candidates invoked in low HDL-C syndromes in humans include APOC3, lipoprotein lipase, sphingomyelin phosphodiesterase 1, and glucocerebrosidase. Molecular variation in ABCAI and APOAI and, in selected cases, lecithin cholesteryl acyl transferase deficiency have been associated with increased CHD, whereas two notable variants, APOAIMilano and APOAIParis, are associated with reduced risk. SUMMARY: Low HDL-C syndromes have generally been correlated with an increased risk of CHD. However, single-gene abnormalities responsible for HDL-C deficiency states may have variable effects on atherothrombotic risk. Roland >> Port wrote: >> >500mg/day [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Roland I found that every increment of 500 mg from 500 mg to 2500 mg had a positive effect on cholesterol as monitored by a stranded CBC/CMP+Cholesterol test as well as the VAP test. Not only is HDL quantity important but quality/subfractions are also important and LDL particle size improved with each 500 mg increase. I also monitored homocysteine and C-Reactive Protein at each step since niacin can increase homocysteine. I stopped at 2500 mg/day when LDL particle type moved solidly into the TYPE A category. Liver enzymes were monitored at each step and Niacin had no addition affect over and above the small dose statin I was already taking. SignaturePramesh Rutajit - p2976221tongue@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply. > >Have you tried Niacin? > > Yep. Been on 500mg/day for about a year now. One other thing if you are not taking Niaspan or the vitamin Niacin the form you are taking me be ineffective (many so called "non flushing" forms sold are not effective). I am not sure if what you are taking is a physician recommended form or not. Secondly the time to kick in may be slow. For exercise it is reported frequently (even though the exercise effect can be quite modest). The Niacin lag is covered in a blog entry (Jan 19) of Dr. William Davis (a cardiologist who wrote track your plaque) here: http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/ He recommends "Slo-Niacin" as a Niaspan alternative that is cheap and readily available. I do not know anything about it, but presume he is right about safety and efficacy. The same blog has a link to a recent NYT piece plugging Niacin in general. Roland http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/551008 By Will Boggs, MD NEW YORK (Reuters Health) Jan 19 - A decline in total cholesterol levels precedes the diagnosis of dementia by at least 15 years, according to an epidemiologic study reported in the January issue of the Archives of Neurology. "Studies like this are extremely valuable because they can provide a 'window' on to processes going on early in dementia, allowing researchers to look back in time at people's health and other characteristics and compare these between people who develop dementia and those who do not," Dr. Robert Stewart from King's College London, UK told Reuters Health. Dr. Stewart and colleagues used data from the Honolulu-Asia Aging Study to compare the natural history of cholesterol level change over a 26-year period between 56 men who were found to have dementia at examination 3 years after the last cholesterol measurement and 971 men who did not have dementia. Total cholesterol levels at the beginning of the study did not differ by later dementia status, the authors report, but the decline in subsequent cholesterol levels was significantly steeper among men who went on to develop dementia. Adjustment for potential confounding factors strengthened the association between cholesterol level decline and the development of dementia, the results indicate. The cholesterol level decline was most marked in men with dementia and the APOE epsilon-4 allele and in those with dementia and worse self- reported general health at the final cholesterol measurement, the researchers note. "The observed associations may not represent direct causal pathways," the investigators say. "Hypocholesterolemia is recognized to be associated with frailty and poor general health. It also has been found to be specifically associated with inflammatory markers and poor nutritional status." Rather, they suggest, "It is possible that the decline in cholesterol levels is a marker for early processes that reflect neurodegenerative changes and also lead to a decline in general health status." The drop in cholesterol was not a result of medication. "Very few of the participants in this study were receiving cholesterol lowering treatment at the time the decline in cholesterol levels was observed (there were few cholesterol lowering medications around at that time in the 1970s), so medication was not responsible for this," Dr. Stewart explained. "The drop in cholesterol was instead probably caused by some other event and was a 'marker' of risk rather than actually increasing the risk itself," he concluded. Arch Neurol 2007;64:103-107. > http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/551008 > By Will Boggs, MD [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > risk itself," he concluded. > Arch Neurol 2007;64:103-107. Decreases in serum cholesterol occurs invariably whenever folks eat less. In the United States, where most folks have been brainwashed to falsely believe that being hungry is bad, this generally occurs primarily when people lose their appetites (ie are no longer hungry). Clinically, this is called anorexia. Anorexia is what is truly bad. Folks with anorexia are dying. "Hunger is good." -- Holy Spirit Amen. "Blessed are you who hunger now for you will be satisfied." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 6:21) Amen. Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://EmoryCardiology.com "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <love10@thetruth.com> wrote in part: >Decreases in serum cholesterol occurs invariably whenever folks eat >less. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Anorexia is what is truly bad. Folks with anorexia are dying. Weight loss years before diagnosis of Alzheimer has also been documented. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Weight loss years before diagnosis of Alzheimer has also been documented. Correct. This is consistent with years of eating less as a consequence of anorexia. Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://EmoryCardiology.com "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <love10@thetruth.com> wrote in part: >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Correct. This is consistent with years of eating less as a >consequence of anorexia. That was my point. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > That was my point. Perhaps it would be were this is a debate. Takes two to debate. In the interim, GOD's purpose for me here remains to inform and not to either debate or convince. Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD http://EmoryCardiology.com > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA False prophet Andrew B. Chung spammed: >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: >> >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >In the interim, GOD's purpose for me here remains to inform and not to >either debate or convince. Translation: "I'm right, everyone else is wrong; no debate is necessary; if you question my words I'll label you a 'convict' and put your name in my kooky webshite list, and if you laugh at me I'll label you a 'demon'". Signature"To err is human, to cover it up is Weasel" -- Dogbert >> >Have you tried Niacin? >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Roland I buy my Niacin in bottles of 200 grams for $6.00 and take 2.5 grams/day in divided doses. SignaturePramesh Rutajit - p2976221tongue@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply. >I buy my Niacin in bottles of 200 grams for $6.00 and take 2.5 grams/day in >divided doses. 200 grams?? Is that the whole bottle? How much is in each pill? And where do you find them for $6? Locally? Internet? I think I've been buying the "ineffective" kind. I'm about to run out though so I'm shopping around. Rick >>I buy my Niacin in bottles of 200 grams for $6.00 and take 2.5 grams/day in >>divided doses. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I think I've been buying the "ineffective" kind. I'm about to run out >though so I'm shopping around. This is 125 grams for $6.71 -- 250 tablets 500mg each. http://www.iherb.com/store/ProductDetails.aspx?c=Herbs&pid=NOW-00482 This type of niacin will cause a painful itchy flush if you are not use to it. Aspirin if taken about 15 minutes before the niacin can mitigate the flush. >This is 125 grams for $6.71 -- 250 tablets 500mg each. I don't even remember what I've been paying but seems like it's more than $6-$7 per 125grams. Been gettin' 'em at Walmart. >This type of niacin will cause a painful itchy flush if you are not use >to it. I've been taking the non-flush kind and haven't really investigated the pros/cons. I can deal with a little pain and itchy though, if it can get my HDL up. Aspirin if taken about 15 minutes before the niacin can mitigate >the flush. Think I might give your kind a go for awhile. Thanks, Port >>This is 125 grams for $6.71 -- 250 tablets 500mg each. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Thanks, >Port You might be interested what the heart scan blog has to say on niacin: http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search?q=niacin This is what Dr. Davis has to say about no-flush niacin: http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search/label/No%20flush%20%3D%20No%20effect >You might be interested what the heart scan blog has to say on niacin: >http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search?q=niacin >what Dr. Davis has to say about no-flush niacin: >http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search/label/No%20flush%20%3D%20No%20effect Yep, thanks. I bought his preferred form. SloNiacin (Upsher Smith). 100 tablets of 500 mg for $12.44 at Walmart. I'll post my results in a few months :-) Port >>You might be interested what the heart scan blog has to say on niacin: >>http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search?q=niacin [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >500 mg for $12.44 at Walmart. >I'll post my results in a few months :-) Dr. Davis suggests that vitamin D3 deficiency is also a risk factor for heart disease -- http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search?q=%22vitamin+d%22+ >>This is 125 grams for $6.71 -- 250 tablets 500mg each. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the pros/cons. I can deal with a little pain and itchy though, if it > can get my HDL up. I don't think either kind of the non-flush variant does anything for HDL or LDL particle size. > Aspirin if taken about 15 minutes before the niacin can mitigate >>the flush. > > Think I might give your kind a go for awhile. > Thanks, > Port SignaturePramesh Rutajit - p2976221tongue@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply. >>I buy my Niacin in bottles of 200 grams for $6.00 and take 2.5 grams/day >>in divided doses. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Rick http://www.beyond-a-century.com It's 200 grams of B3 powder. I weigh out 1.25 grams in the morning and evening for a total of 2.5 grams/day. I prefer to swish my B3 around in my mouth with tomato juice and follow that with about 12 oz of water. It usually eliminates any flush. SignaturePramesh Rutajit - p2976221tongue@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply. > Has anyone here, other than Susan, had any luck raising their HDL > using Pantethine? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks, > Port It did nothing for me but I had already raised my HDL 31 to mid 60s before giving it a try. SignaturePramesh Rutajit - p2976221tongue@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply. |
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