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Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / May 2006Carbs and Cholesterol.
Can a high carbohydrate diet translate into high cholesterol in your arteries? Thanks Edgardo Barbosa "edgardo j barbosa" <ebarbosa2@adelphia.net> wrote in part: >Can a high carbohydrate diet translate into high cholesterol in your >arteries? > >Thanks >Edgardo Barbosa In the artery walls? Or in the blood? What is your concern? A high-glycemic index, high carbohydrate diet can cause the body to manufacture palmitic acid (a "bad" saturated fat), which in turn increases LDL synthesis. That will raise cholesterol levels in the blood. It can also promote atherosclerosis via the increased LDL, decreased HDL, increased triglycerides, and effects from increased blood glucose, particularly in susceptible individuals. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > "edgardo j barbosa" <ebarbosa2@adelphia.net> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > manufacture palmitic acid (a "bad" saturated fat), which in turn increases > LDL synthesis. Not when there is no overeating. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew http://tinyurl.com/jjl29 : "edgardo j barbosa" <ebarbosa2@adelphia.net> wrote in part: : [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] : decreased HDL, increased triglycerides, and effects from increased : blood glucose, particularly in susceptible individuals. To my knowledge the body makes palmitic acid also from excess of protein, not only from excess of carbohydrates. So, excess is the key word here.  SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: "edgardo j barbosa" <ebarbosa2@adelphia.net> wrote in part: >: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >To my knowledge the body makes palmitic acid also from excess of protein, >not only from excess of carbohydrates. So, excess is the key word here. "Excess" oleic acid is safe, as are most of the fats. It's curious that so many people think that the oils they consume deposit on the linings of their arteries, but that they can consume 3000 kcal of table sugar each day and not worry about "cholesterol." -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA I was wondering if 3000 Kcal of any carb has the same effect ? Glycemic index aside for the moment. My grandfather used to say grease is good for the gears. I still remember traveling with him as he had a suitcase that he had to sit on every 75 yards due to being out of breath as we walked. Died of heart disease just like his daughter my mom . CABG Bill Aside he used to take his coffee in a saucer usually with white bread. Sweet was good and so was scapple. SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. : "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: ::: "edgardo j barbosa" <ebarbosa2@adelphia.net> wrote in part: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] : linings of their arteries, but that they can consume 3000 kcal of : table sugar each day and not worry about "cholesterol." Well, I have a friend who consumes excess of oleic acid every day as he pours 2-3 ounces olive oil on all meals he eats. He is overweight and has high cholesterol. I don't think that he is doing very fine. And yes, I am aware that Cretans consume a huge amount of olive oil. I agree that consuming high amounts of olive oil is relatively safe but I don't think that it is ideal. Just consider the postprandial effect of high olive oil meals on arteries. http://www.webmd.com/content/article/13/1728_55672.htm SignatureJuhana > Well, I have a friend who consumes excess of oleic acid every day as he > pours 2-3 ounces olive oil on all meals he eats. He is overweight and has [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://www.webmd.com/content/article/13/1728_55672.htm your citation does not support your assertion at all. The word "may" in the first line was the first tip off. The fact that they ignored the fact that olive oil is anti-inflammatory is another. Susan : x-no-archive: yes : [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] : : your citation does not support your assertion at all. "What we found is that two were good and one was not -- olive oil. Olive oil impaired vascular function just like a Big Mac or fries or Sara Lee cheesecake," says Robert Vogel, MD, head of cardiology at the University of Maryland in Baltimore. - That is very clearly said. : The fact that they ignored the fact that olive oil is : anti-inflammatory is another. Just as you said - it is another thing. SignatureJuhana > "What we found is that two were good and one was not -- olive oil. Olive oil > impaired vascular function just like a Big Mac or fries or Sara Lee > cheesecake," says Robert Vogel, MD, head of cardiology at the University of > Maryland in Baltimore. - That is very clearly said. As usual, you're confusing opinions with established fact. No such thing was demonstrated by the data cited. > : The fact that they ignored the fact that olive oil is > : anti-inflammatory is another. > > Just as you said - it is another thing. No, it's a CVD thing; they leapt to an unfounded conclusion. You failed to distinguish an opinion from actual data. Susan : x-no-archive: yes : [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] : No, it's a CVD thing; they leapt to an unfounded conclusion. You : failed to distinguish an opinion from actual data. You are dense. SignatureJuhana > You are dense. You're rude and stupid, but at least I managed not to say so til now. Susan "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >"What we found is that two were good and one was not -- olive oil. Olive oil >impaired vascular function just like a Big Mac or fries or Sara Lee >cheesecake," says Robert Vogel, MD, head of cardiology at the University of >Maryland in Baltimore. - That is very clearly said. Well, we were talking about cholesterol. Even if you want to switch to endothelial function (alone), would you accept Vogel's remarks you quoted and bet that a large randomized trial would find that olive oil was indistinguishable from "a Big Mac or fries or Sara Lee cheesecake?" -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA : "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: : [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] : oil was indistinguishable from "a Big Mac or fries or Sara Lee : cheesecake?" To be honest - no. I think that he exaggerates. SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >::: "edgardo j barbosa" <ebarbosa2@adelphia.net> wrote in part: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >pours 2-3 ounces olive oil on all meals he eats. He is overweight and has >high cholesterol. I don't think that he is doing very fine. Let's not dance. Excess calories will raise cholesterol. If we talk in terms of isocaloric substitutions, the point I keep trying to make against your opposition is that one who is concerned about high cholesterol and who is apparently eliminating eggs to reduce his cholesterol, and who has asked now whether a high carbohydrate diet can increase cholesterol, should be told that, yes, a high-carb diet can increase cholesterol. Even an isocaloric one can do so. >And yes, I am aware that Cretans consume a huge amount of olive oil. I agree >that consuming high amounts of olive oil is relatively safe but I don't >think that it is ideal. Just consider the postprandial effect of high olive >oil meals on arteries. > >http://www.webmd.com/content/article/13/1728_55672.htm Interesting, but a really tiny preliminary study. I've always been fascinated by the Lyon study and what the explanation might be, and it is depressing that the necessary studies have not been done to sort it out. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA :: And yes, I am aware that Cretans consume a huge amount of olive oil. :: I agree that consuming high amounts of olive oil is relatively safe [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] : it is depressing that the necessary studies have not been done to : sort it out. I agree. SignatureJuhana : Let's not dance. Excess calories will raise cholesterol. If we talk : in terms of isocaloric substitutions, the point I keep trying to make [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : can increase cholesterol, should be told that, yes, a high-carb diet : can increase cholesterol. Even an isocaloric one can do so. If carbs in itself were the issue then vegetarians and vegans would have high cholesterol as their average diet is high in carbs. However, their cholesterol values are clearly lower than those of meat eaters (http://tinyurl.com/mwcvl). So I think that both excess calories and excess refined carbohydrates are the real culprits, not carbohydrates themselves. Still I admit that cholesterol can be reduced by replacing some carbohydrates with unsaturated oils. SignatureJuhana > If carbs in itself were the issue then vegetarians and vegans would have > high cholesterol as their average diet is high in carbs. Too bad for all that deprivation and B12 starvation their mortality rates aren't any better, though. Susan "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: Let's not dance. Excess calories will raise cholesterol. If we talk >: in terms of isocaloric substitutions, the point I keep trying to make [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >(http://tinyurl.com/mwcvl). So I think that both excess calories and excess >refined carbohydrates are the real culprits, not carbohydrates themselves. It's not possible to say that vegetarians differ from meat eaters (lower cholesterol) and attribute it to their supposed higher carbohydrate intake. Their diets differ in innumerable ways. A randomized trial is needed. >Still I admit that cholesterol can be reduced by replacing some >carbohydrates with unsaturated oils. I have seen a randomized trial (small) years ago and can't find it now, where isocaloric changes were made among carbs and varous fats and protein, and lipids measured. As I recall, trans fats were the biggest booster of cholesterol, but carbs beat both (non trans) fats and protein. The results of course only apply to the particular mixes of foods making up the diets, so any results are only suggestive of any general pattern. From all my reading, I've come to think that the carbohydrates--as typically consumed in a Western diet--may be more to blame for high cholesterol readings than are fats (exclusive of trans-fat, but maybe even including sat fat) or protein. Carbohydrates in Western diets do tend to be highly starchy and refined. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA : "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: :: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] : carbohydrate intake. Their diets differ in innumerable ways. A : randomized trial is needed. It is a well known fact that the avarage total cholesterol of vegetarians and especially vegans is lower than the cholesterol of meat eaters. It is also a fact that on average vegetarians eat a relatively high carb diet. Hence vegatarian and vegan diets are testimonies that it is possible to eat a high carb diet and have a low cholesterol - even if the diet differ in many ways as you correctly mentioned. :: Still I admit that cholesterol can be reduced by replacing some :: carbohydrates with unsaturated oils. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : of foods making up the diets, so any results are only suggestive of : any general pattern. We had a discussion about this before. I think that you are misinformed if you think that carbs have the worst effect on cholesterol. Not only do trans-fats beat carbs as the boosters of cholesterol but also saturated fats. (Also, I would like to point out that isocaloric trials are artificial and far from real life situations. Ad libitum -trials are closer to real life and they give different results.) : From all my reading, I've come to think that the carbohydrates--as : typically consumed in a Western diet--may be more to blame for high : cholesterol readings than are fats (exclusive of trans-fat, but maybe : even including sat fat) or protein. Carbohydrates in Western diets do : tend to be highly starchy and refined. Well, I guess we all agree that refined carbs and trans-fats are bad guys, but I think that it is probably highly individual which are more harmful in the diet, refined carbs or bad fats. SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >:: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >a high carb diet and have a low cholesterol - even if the diet differ in >many ways as you correctly mentioned. Of course it's possible. >:: Still I admit that cholesterol can be reduced by replacing some >:: carbohydrates with unsaturated oils. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >We had a discussion about this before. I think that you are misinformed if >you think that carbs have the worst effect on cholesterol. The question posed by the OP was whether a high carb diet *could* raise cholesterol. He said, "Can a high carbohydrate diet translate into high cholesterol in your arteries?" I believe the answer is yes, and I have tried to explain why. You are tending to make assertions backed by data that are impossible to interpret with any certainty. Nutrition study designs are terrible. >Not only do >trans-fats beat carbs as the boosters of cholesterol but also saturated >fats. (Also, I would like to point out that isocaloric trials are artificial >and far from real life situations. Ad libitum -trials are closer to real >life and they give different results.) Yes, ad libitum trials show that lower carb diets produce weight loss which assists in the reduction of cholesterol. An isocaloric study is needed to eliminate such effects that are important in real life but which muddy the mechanisms you are trying to understand. >: From all my reading, I've come to think that the carbohydrates--as >: typically consumed in a Western diet--may be more to blame for high [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >but I think that it is probably highly individual which are more harmful in >the diet, refined carbs or bad fats. I don't think we know! -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > The question posed by the OP was whether a high carb diet *could* raise > cholesterol. He said, "Can a high carbohydrate diet translate into high [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > tending to make assertions backed by data that are impossible to interpret > with any certainty. Nutrition study designs are terrible. I believe the OP needs to better define what he means by "high carbohydrate". We all know eating a hi-carb diet centering on Twizzlers, Ho-Hos and Ringdings vs. broccoli, legumes and whole-grain is quite different and will affect lipid levels. The Twizzlers diet will certainly raise tryglycerides - will elevated triglycerides pull up LDL as well? Are triG levels independent of LDL? Signature__________ "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956) Owen Lowe <noemails@myemail.com> wrote in part: >> The question posed by the OP was whether a high carb diet *could* raise >> cholesterol. He said, "Can a high carbohydrate diet translate into high [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Twizzlers, Ho-Hos and Ringdings vs. broccoli, legumes and whole-grain is >quite different and will affect lipid levels. Well, you don't have to go that far. I think you can get some bad effects by eating a high carb diet based on potatoes, rice, bread, pasta, and fruit juice. >The Twizzlers diet will certainly raise tryglycerides - will elevated >triglycerides pull up LDL as well? Are triG levels independent of LDL? I don't think anyone (except maybe Juhana) will argue that a high carb, high glycemic load diet won't boost VLDL a bunch. I think it can also boost LDL. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA : I don't think anyone (except maybe Juhana) will argue that a high : carb, high glycemic load diet won't boost VLDL a bunch. I think it : can also boost LDL. I am not favoring a high glycemic load diet - quite the opposite. I agree with Owen who says that it is important to differentiate between different carbs. Lumping all together does not make any sense. Just as there are good and bad fats, there are also good and bad carbs and well-packed proteins and poorly packed proteins. SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: I don't think anyone (except maybe Juhana) will argue that a high >: carb, high glycemic load diet won't boost VLDL a bunch. I think it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >and bad fats, there are also good and bad carbs and well-packed proteins and >poorly packed proteins. So when someone asks, "Can a high carbohydrate diet translate into high cholesterol in your arteries?" I'd say YES. While it may be true that health-conscious vegetarians/vegans choose low-glycemic foods, I'd bet that the typical high-carb person in the West is eating off the high end of the glycemic scale. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA I wonder if it boils down to energy. Energy in low good, energy in too much not good. Where does extra energy go? Longevity has been reported to relate to less energy. Bill Musing SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. > So when someone asks, "Can a high carbohydrate diet translate into high > cholesterol in your arteries?" I'd say YES. > > While it may be true that health-conscious vegetarians/vegans choose > low-glycemic foods, I'd bet that the typical high-carb person in the West is > eating off the high end of the glycemic scale. Exactly. The first mental image when I hear someone say hi-carb is pasta, potatoes, rice, bread, cereals, and sugary foods. Signature__________ "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956) :: While it may be true that health-conscious vegetarians/vegans choose :: low-glycemic foods, I'd bet that the typical high-carb person in the :: West is eating off the high end of the glycemic scale. : : Exactly. The first mental image when I hear someone say hi-carb is : pasta, potatoes, rice, bread, cereals, and sugary foods. It might be somewhat different in different countries. In Finland, were I live, it is quite common to eat porridge oats and rye bread made from mostly whole grain rye. Although the Finnish diet in general is not one of the healthiest ones, these are good features. Berries are also easily available. SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >:: While it may be true that health-conscious vegetarians/vegans choose >:: low-glycemic foods, I'd bet that the typical high-carb person in the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >whole grain rye. Although the Finnish diet in general is not one of the >healthiest ones, these are good features. Berries are also easily available. Almost no one around here (Virginia, in the USA) would touch "porridge oats and rye bread made from mostly whole grain rye." I eat rye crispbread and the like, and most of what I buy is imported from Sweden and Norway. The "whole-grain" rye bread baked here is largely not whole grain anything. Here's an ingredients list for rye bread from a nearby chain (Panera) that bakes its rye bread fresh locally: "Unbleached flour (wheat flour, malted barley flour), water, bread base (bleached wheat flour, dextrose, palm oil, dry whey [a milk protein], salt, mono & diglycerides with BHT and citric acid as preservatives, corn flour, soy flour, DATEM, vital wheat gluten, calcium salts, leavening [monocalcium phosphate], wheat starch, calcium carbonate, ascorbic acid as dough conditioner, calcium iodate, enzymes, soy lecithin, l-cysteine, silicon dioxide, tricalcium phosphate), rye chops (may contain wheat), whole wheat flour, margarine (palm oil, water, soybean oil, mono- and diglycerides, artificial flavor, colored with annatto, calcium disodium EDTA as a preservative, vitamin A palmitate), yeast, sugar, caraway seed, salt." :-( -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > Almost no one around here (Virginia, in the USA) would touch "porridge oats > and rye bread made from mostly whole grain rye." I eat rye crispbread and [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > artificial flavor, colored with annatto, calcium disodium EDTA as a > preservative, vitamin A palmitate), yeast, sugar, caraway seed, salt." It's not "whole grain" rye that's so low GI, it's whole "kernel" rye. Once it's ground into flour, the starch is released more readily and GI goes up. Susan Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Once it's ground into flour, the starch is released more readily and GI >goes up. Seems like "whole" should mean whole, not broken into fragments. But you are right, of course. The Wasa Hearty Rye Crispbread that I like is: Whole grain rye flour, rye bran, yeast, salt. Anyone know what the glycemic index should be? Is there a better choice? -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > Seems like "whole" should mean whole, not broken into fragments. > > But you are right, of course. The Wasa Hearty Rye Crispbread that I like is: > Whole grain rye flour, rye bran, yeast, salt. Anyone know what the glycemic > index should be? Is there a better choice? If you really want a personally, customized answer, ask your doc, or Lifexan, for a free glucose meter, or buy a Walmart Relion because it's cheap and the strips to use it are the cheapest available (companies give meters away for bupkis because they make beaucoup $$ on thievery for the test strips). See how high your bg goes, say, 45 minutes to 1 hour after eating a food you're testing. Folks with intact pancreatic function rarely venture outside a tight range of 85 fasting to 105 post meal due to excellent insulin response. There's a whole range of less than desirable glycemic responses before one reaches the ranges currently required for a dx of DM 2. Since peripheral neuropathies, nephropathy and retinopathy occur in the non-diabetic IGT range, testing ain't a bad idea for a non diabetic who wants to stay that way. Susan > If you really want a personally, customized answer, ask your doc, or > Lifexan, for a free glucose meter Uh, "personally customized" and "Lifescan." Susan Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >non-diabetic IGT range, testing ain't a bad idea for a non diabetic who >wants to stay that way. That's a truly great idea, except that I don't like to lance myself. ;-) -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > That's a truly great idea, except that I don't like to lance myself. ;-) > -- It's not a bayonet type thingy, more like a little prick. ;-) Susan Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part: >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Susan Let's not get personal. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA : "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: : [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] : disodium EDTA as a preservative, vitamin A palmitate), yeast, sugar, : caraway seed, salt." :-( I knew that the situation is worse in the USA but I did not know that it is that bad. My condolences. I think that something should be done to reverse the situation. SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >that bad. My condolences. I think that something should be done to reverse >the situation. According to a paper I saw recently, It is "that bad" except in parts of Scandinavia. See http://www.wholegrainscouncil.org/pdf/SlavinArticle0504.pdf -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA : "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: : [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] : of Scandinavia. See : http://www.wholegrainscouncil.org/pdf/SlavinArticle0504.pdf The situation was even worse in India which I visited recently. I did not see any whole grain there except Swedish rye cripsbread once in a grocery store. Even that was for tourists. I had couple of discussions with Indians about the subject and I found out that they did not even know what whole grains are although their knowledge of English in general is pretty good. Only after my long explanation one Indian waiter in one restaurant was able to grasp what I mean and he replied that only poor people in some villages eat whole grain rice at the time of harvest. SignatureJuhana > : "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: > : [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > to grasp what I mean and he replied that only poor people in some villages > eat whole grain rice at the time of harvest. Us aging hippies use to study macrobiotic philosophy which valued whole grains. Eden foods still caries on. Walnut acres was the best in my opinion till they were bought out and closed down...real Bummer!!!! Still real food is becoming more expensive and we compensate with higher health cost. Meat by the way is cheap here produce is expensive. With fuel or energy going up I forecast victory gardens coming back into vogue. AKA small gardens . Search on a rainy day for Quinoa or Amaranth. http://www.healthy-eating.com/ for Quinoa http://www.nuworldfoods.com/ for Amaranth Bill SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. ::: "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: ::: [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] : in my opinion till they were bought out and closed down...real : Bummer!!!! My interest to healthy food started also from macrobiotics in the late seventies and early eighties but I never really liked their approach because they disapproved eating most fruits which I have always liked. Often the macrobiotic meals included too much grains and they tasted too dry to my taste. : Still real food is becoming more expensive and we compensate with : higher health cost. Meat by the way is cheap here produce is : expensive. With fuel or energy going up I forecast victory gardens : coming back into vogue. AKA small gardens . Isn't it strange that people are able to afford large houses and couple of cars to their families but healthy food is too expensive? For me it is a sign that there is something wrong with priorities. : Search on a rainy day for Quinoa or Amaranth. I have both in my kitchen. I cook quinoa often and it is one of my favorite grains. In amaranth there are often some grains of sand that I am not able to rinse off. In addition to quinoa I also like whole grain spelt. There might be some unfounded nutrition hype around spelt but I like the taste anyway. There is nothing better that spelt porridge cooked very slowly from crushed spelt grains. SignatureJuhana > ::: "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: > ::: [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > nothing better that spelt porridge cooked very slowly from crushed spelt > grains. In a few words I'd suggest that close to the earth,local, fresh and prepared with love is the way to go. Get the family about for dinner then sauna. Eating low on the chain comes to mind as after thought. Whole grain rice = 5 Sugar = 2 Meat = 8 Balancing extremes was difficult but I still keep the premise in mind when I cook. Balance... Now these tomatoes and this fresh cheese along with fresh basil,,,,:)) Fruit and meat seems easier. Yin yang ... I went from cooking ideals to martial fun same principles. Hard to figure. Best as always!! Have great weekend! Bill Bill I'm ignorant of spelt soon to be remedied. SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. ::::: "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: ::::::: "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] : In a few words I'd suggest that close to the earth, local, fresh and : prepared with love is the way to go. Fresh and prepared with love sounds great. But I would like to question the age old macrobiotic assumption that local food is good. If I would eat local food only I would have to give up many healthy crops as they don't grow at latitude 60 N where I live. I would have to give up eating almonds, nuts, pomegranates, oranges, red wine, olive oil, quinoa, sesame seeds, green tea, sea weed, kudzu, and mackerel to name just few imported foods. The local soil is also deficient of selenium and if I would eat organic local food only I would end up as selenium deficient. Just after the Second World War the local diet here was very limited. I am happy that along with the increased affluence and widening trade it became possible to purchase foods which were not available after the war. Along with the widening variety of vegetables and fruits available the avarage life-expectancy has been increasing steadily. Setting voluntary limits to the variety of vegatables and fruits eaten - as done in macrobiotics - would be like going backwards. : Get the family about for dinner : then sauna. Eating low on the chain comes to mind as after thought. Low on the chain is one of my principles also. : Whole grain rice = 5 : Sugar = 2 [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] : : Have great weekend! Same to you also! :-) : Bill : : Bill : : I'm ignorant of spelt soon to be remedied. (1) Here is a non-commercial site about spelt: http://food.oregonstate.edu/g/spelt.html (2) A study about the nutritional differences of spelt and common wheat: J Agric Food Chem. 2005 Apr 6;53(7):2751-9. Spelt (Triticum aestivum ssp. spelta) as a source of breadmaking flours and bran naturally enriched in oleic acid and minerals but not phytic acid. Ruibal-Mendieta NL, Delacroix DL, Mignolet E, Pycke JM, Marques C, Rozenberg R, Petitjean G, Habib-Jiwan JL, Meurens M, Quetin-Leclercq J, Delzenne NM, Larondelle Y. Unite de biochimie de la nutrition, Universite catholique de Louvain, Croix du Sud 2/8, 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium. The nutritional value of breadmaking cereal spelt (Triticum aestivum ssp. spelta) is said to be higher than that of common wheat (Triticum aestivum ssp. vulgare), but this traditional view is not substantiated by scientific evidence. In an attempt to clarify this issue, wholemeal and milling fractions (sieved flour, fine bran, and coarse bran) from nine dehulled spelt and five soft winter wheat samples were compared with regard to their lipid, fatty acid, and mineral contents. In addition, tocopherol (a biochemical marker of germ) was measured in all wholemeals, whereas phytic acid and phosphorus levels were determined in fine bran and coarse bran samples after 1 month of storage. Results showed that, on average, spelt wholemeals and milling fractions were higher in lipids and unsaturated fatty acids as compared to wheat, whereas tocopherol content was lower in spelt, suggesting that the higher lipid content of spelt may not be related to a higher germ proportion. Although milling fractionation produced similar proportions of flour and brans in spelt and wheat, it was found that ash, copper, iron, zinc, magnesium, and phosphorus contents were higher in spelt samples, especially in aleurone-rich fine bran and in coarse bran. Even though phosphorus content was higher in spelt than in wheat brans, phytic acid content showed the opposite trend and was 40% lower in spelt versus wheat fine bran, which may suggest that spelt has either a higher endogenous phytase activity or a lower phytic acid content than wheat. The results of this study give important indications on the real nutritional value of spelt compared to wheat. Moreover, they show that the Ca/Fe ratio, combined with that of oleate/palmitate, provides a highly discriminating tool to authenticate spelt from wheat flours and to face the growing issue of spelt flour adulteration. Finally, they suggest that aleurone differences, the nature of which still needs to be investigated, may account for the differential nutrient composition of spelt and wheat. PMID: 15796621 SignatureJuhana > "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA Jim below places I visit often. Yet not as much as our local shopping center ;(( too. Be sure to peruse the weird food site. Bill who grows lingonberry in his garden but still imports felix and loves cloudberry. We have a small wild blueberry all over our woods. http://www.weird-food.com/weird-food-fish.html http://www.sunorganic.com/ http://www.edenfoods.com/ http://www.pacificrim-gourmet.com/ http://www.catchofthesea.com/ http://www.breadalone.com/ SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. > I believe the OP needs to better define what he means by "high > carbohydrate". We all know eating a hi-carb diet centering on > Twizzlers, Ho-Hos and Ringdings vs. broccoli, legumes and whole-grain is > quite different and will affect lipid levels. Except for whole kernel rye not ground into flour, there's not that much difference in the impact on lipids. > The Twizzlers diet will certainly raise tryglycerides - will elevated > triglycerides pull up LDL as well? Are triG levels independent of LDL? Elevated triglycerides pull up TC and are a marker for a more atherogenic form of LDL, which is of far greater concern than the raw count. In metabolic syndrome, typically TGL and LDL are high and HDL is depressed. Cutting glycemic load improves ratios immensely. If you get your carbs from colorful, leafy stuff mostly, instead of beans or grains, you get high carb by volume with incredible nutrient density but low % of calories from carbs, and a vastly improved lipid profile. Susan Jim Chinnis says... >> And yes, I am aware that Cretans consume a huge amount >> of olive oil. I agree that consuming high amounts of >> olive oil is relatively safe but I don't think that it >> is ideal. Just consider the postprandial effect of high >> olive oil meals on arteries. >> http://www.webmd.com/content/article/13/1728_55672.htm > Interesting, but a really tiny preliminary study. I've > always been fascinated by the Lyon study and what the > explanation might be, and it is depressing that the > necessary studies have not been done to sort it out. I have some vague memory that canola is bad for you. Maybe one of the early low-carb-diet gurus thought it produced the wrong eicosanoids (sp?) or something like that. Or maybe it was the rapeseed connection - I assume that would NOT be a real problem. So what's the story here? I make a point of maximizing the percentage of my fat consumption that's olive oil. Have I been screwing up all these years? Should it be canola oil instead? Is there anything that we think we know about food and diet that we're sure is really true? From the screenplay of Woody Allen's "Sleeper": WELL, HE'S FULLY RECOVERED, EXCEPT FOR A FEW MINOR KINKS. HAS HE ASKED FOR ANYTHING SPECIAL ? YES, THIS MORNING FOR BREAKFAST. HE REQUESTED SOMETHING CALLED WHEAT GERM, ORGANIC HONEY AND TIGER'S MILK. [ Laughs ] OH, YES. THOSE WERE THE CHARMED SUBSTANCES... THAT SOME YEARS AGO WERE FELT TO CONTAIN LIFE-PRESERVING PROPERTIES. YOU MEAN THERE WAS NO DEEP FAT ? NO STEAK OR CREAM PIES OR HOT FUDGE ? THOSE WERE THOUGHT TO BE UNHEALTHY, PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE NOW KNOW TO BE TRUE. INCREDIBLE. >And yes, I am aware that Cretans consume a huge amount of olive oil. I agree >that consuming high amounts of olive oil is relatively safe but I don't >think that it is ideal. Just consider the postprandial effect of high olive >oil meals on arteries. > >http://www.webmd.com/content/article/13/1728_55672.htm This is a small preliminary study, which was not published, but presented at a meeting. But assuming that the results are real and repeatable, it seems that the bad thing is the absence of omega-3 fatty acids from the meal. Both canola oil and olive oil have high amount of monounsaturated fatty acids, mostly oleic acid, canola oil about 59-72% depending of the type of canola oil, and olive oil about 68-73%. The main difference is that canola oil has some omega-3 fatty acids, alpha-linolenic acid, and olive oil has practically none. Also, it seems that the authors either knew or assumed, that bread could not be the reason for blood vessel constriction. Is that a fact or just their assumption? The Cretan traditional diet contained large amount of alpha-linoleic acid from various sources, therefore the Cretans probably got also alpha-linolenic acid from almost every, which contained olive oil. Because they almost always got omega-3s with their omega-9s, the latter probably did not harm them, if we assume that omega-9s could be harmful. Perhaps the phenolic compounds in olive oil gave to the Cretans instead some additional benefit? Would be interesting to know whether the researchers in this study used extra virgin olive oil or not and cold pressed canola oil or not. SignatureMatti Narkia OOn Wed, 24 May 2006 19:13:26 +0300, "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote: >And yes, I am aware that Cretans consume a huge amount of olive oil. I agree >that consuming high amounts of olive oil is relatively safe but I don't >think that it is ideal. Just consider the postprandial effect of high olive >oil meals on arteries. > >http://www.webmd.com/content/article/13/1728_55672.htm This is a small preliminary study, which was not published, but presented at a meeting. But assuming that the results are real and repeatable, it seems that the bad thing is the absence of omega-3 fatty acids from the meal. Both canola oil and olive oil have high amount of monounsaturated fatty acids, mostly oleic acid, canola oil about 59-72% depending of the type of canola oil, and olive oil about 68-73%. The main difference is that canola oil has some omega-3 fatty acids, alpha-linolenic acid, and olive oil has practically none. Also, it seems that the authors either knew or assumed, that bread could not be the reason for blood vessel constriction. Is that a fact or just their assumption? Whrther it was or not, the omega-3s, still seemed to prevent the constriction, and olive oil does not have omega-3s. The Cretan traditional diet contained large amount of alpha-linoleic acid from various sources, therefore the Cretans probably got also alpha-linolenic acid from almost every meal, which contained olive oil. Because they almost always got omega-3s with their omega-9s, the latter (or absence of omega-3s) probably did not harm them. Perhaps the phenolic compounds in olive oil gave to the Cretans instead some additional benefit? Would be interesting to know whether the researchers in this study used extra virgin olive oil or not and cold pressed canola oil or not. SignatureMatti Narkia >OOn Wed, 24 May 2006 19:13:26 +0300, "Juhana Harju" ><shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >Would be interesting to know whether the researchers in this study >used extra virgin olive oil or not and cold pressed canola oil or not. I heve always thought that especially old pressed canola oil is a good alternative to extra virgin olive oil in many cases, but even if the results of this new study are real, I have some doubts about canola oil in cooking (mainly frying), because alpha-linolenic acid does not tolerate high temperatures very well and could generate some toxic substances when heated. SignatureMatti Narkia >OOn Wed, 24 May 2006 19:13:26 +0300, "Juhana Harju" ><shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >Would be interesting to know whether the researchers in this study >used extra virgin olive oil or not and cold pressed canola oil or not. I heve always thought that especially cold pressed canola oil is a good alternative to extra virgin olive oil in many cases, but even if the results of this new study are real, I have some doubts about canola oil in cooking (mainly frying), because alpha-linolenic acid does not tolerate high temperatures very well and could generate some toxic substances when heated. SignatureMatti Narkia >>OOn Wed, 24 May 2006 19:13:26 +0300, "Juhana Harju" >><shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >does not tolerate high temperatures very well and could generate some >toxic substances when heated. Also, as we know, alpha-linolenic acid has been associated with increased risk of prostate cancer: Brouwer IA, Katan MB, Zock PL. Dietary alpha-linolenic acid is associated with reduced risk of fatal coronary heart disease, but increased prostate cancer risk: a meta-analysis. J Nutr. 2004 Apr;134(4):919-22. PMID: 15051847 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/4/919> If both effects are real, the men have to decide, whether to try to decrease the risk of sudden cardiac death or prostate cancer. The latter would cause more suffering, so my bet is to try to reduce the risk of prostate cancer, especially because fatty fish and fish oil can be used instead of alpha-linolenic acid to help to prevent the former. Taking some fish oil at every meal, which does not contain fatty fish, could perhaps also prevent the blood vessel constriction after meal. Has anyone tested this? SignatureMatti Narkia >Also, as we know, alpha-linolenic acid has been associated with >increased risk of prostate cancer: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >fatty fish, could perhaps also prevent the blood vessel constriction >after meal. Has anyone tested this? I didn't find exactly that kind of study, but these two studies found tha fish oil inhibited vasconstriction in healthy subjects and improved vasorelaxation in hypercholesterolemic patients. Chin JP, Gust AP, Nestel PJ, Dart AM. Marine oils dose-dependently inhibit vasoconstriction of forearm resistance vessels in humans. Hypertension. 1993 Jan;21(1):22-8. PMID: 8418020 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://hyper.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/21/1/22?> <http://hyper.ahajournals.org/cgi/reprint/21/1/22> (full text PDF) Goode GK, Garcia S, Heagerty AM. Dietary supplementation with marine fish oil improves in vitro small artery endothelial function in hypercholesterolemic patients: a double-blind placebo-controlled study. Circulation. 1997 Nov 4;96(9):2802-7. PMID: 9386141 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/96/9/2802> SignatureMatti Narkia > but these two studies found >tha fish oil inhibited vasconstriction in healthy subjects and >improved vasorelaxation in hypercholesterolemic patients. Yes, but fish oil is 20-carbon omega-3 and Canola is 18-carbon omega-3. If they were measuring vasoconstriction immediately after the meal and finding a benefit from linolenic acid, then it was likely having some direct effect, not mediated through EPA and the eicoanoids. Yes? DRT >> but these two studies found >>tha fish oil inhibited vasconstriction in healthy subjects and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >having some direct effect, not mediated through EPA and the >eicoanoids. I'm not contesting that, and I think that you may be right in suggesting that time interval from the beginning of the meal to the measuremant of prostparandial effect is too short to assume that the effect was due to EPA and DHA converted from alpha-linolenic acid, because that conversion is slow and inefficient. I was just trying to demonstrate that the combination of olive oil + (EITHER alpha-linolenic acid from other food sources than canola oil OR EPA+DHA from fish oil) will work just as well as canola oil in inhibiting postprandial vasoconstriction . Vogel et al. (2000) measured vasoconstriction also after salmon meal. The effect was similar to the effect with canola oil (which has alpha-linolenic acid, but no longer chain omega-3s). Salmon has hardly any alpha-linolenic acid, but plenty of long chain omega-3s EPA and DHA. So Vogel et al. seems to suggest that omega-3s regardless of their chain length inhibit vasoconstriction after the meal. Chin et al. says that longer chain omega-3s (EPA+DHA) generally inhibit vasoconstriction, although their study did not measure the effects immediately after the meal. So the point I was trying to make is that both shorter chain (alpha-linolenic acid) and longer chain omega-3s (EPA+DHA) inhibit postprandial vasoconstriction. This was shown already by Vogel et al. (canola oil meal and salmon meal). Chin et al. demonstrated inhibition of vasoconstriction by EPA+DHA more generally, not only after the meals. Goode et al. showed that EPA+DHA improved vasorelaxation in hypercholesterolemic patients. This brings to my second point: although canola oil (or more generally rapeseed soil) due to its omega-3 content has a benefit of inhibiting postparandial vasoconstriction, it may also have some risks (increased prostate cancer risk, toxic subtances produced from alpha-linolenic acid in cooking) attached to it. It seems that a similar benefit, but without risks, can be obtained with olive oil + (fatty fish OR fish oil supplement at meal time). SignatureMatti Narkia : This brings to my second point: although canola oil (or more generally : rapeseed soil) due to its omega-3 content has a benefit of inhibiting [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : without risks, can be obtained with olive oil + (fatty fish OR fish : oil supplement at meal time). Consider the effects of the Lyon Diet Heart Trial where heart disease incidense decreased by 70%. An important element in the trial was the use of rape seed oil based margarine containing alpha-linolenic acid. It has been estimated that perhaps 40% of the drop in heart disease insidence in the trial can be accounted to the higher intake of alpha-linolenic acid. To my knowledge no such drop has been observed in studies using fish oils only. So I don't think that as good results can be achived by using long chain omega-3 fatty acids only. I am also concerned of the increased prostate cancer risk associted with the higher intake of alpha-linolenic acid but I don't have any clear answers to resolve the issue. For males getting alpha-linolenic acid mainly from whole food sources like walnuts and pumpkin seeds might be a partial solution but that does not seems like a solution for the large public. SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: This brings to my second point: although canola oil (or more generally >: rapeseed soil) due to its omega-3 content has a benefit of inhibiting [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >incidense decreased by 70%. An important element in the trial was the use of >rape seed oil based margarine containing alpha-linolenic acid. Other important differences include lower carbs, higher fat, less red meat, more fish, more fruit, and more vegetables. The comparison was between a modified (AHA "prudent") American diet and a modified Cretan diet. It may well be the case that the ALA is responsible for 40% of the improvement, but no one really knows. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA : "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: : [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] : between a modified (AHA "prudent") American diet and a modified : Cretan diet. I am aware of those differences; I have read the study. : It may well be the case that the ALA is responsible for 40% of the : improvement, but no one really knows. There are some expert opinions which estimated that reduced risk can be accounted mostly to higher ALA. SignatureJuhana "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >I am aware of those differences; I have read the study. I'm sure you have. I was commenting on the weakness of the study as to singling out any particular nutrient. >: It may well be the case that the ALA is responsible for 40% of the >: improvement, but no one really knows. > >There are some expert opinions which estimated that reduced risk can be >accounted mostly to higher ALA. But the statistical methods are inadequate to overcome the inadequate study design. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA >: It may well be the case that the ALA is responsible for 40% of the >: improvement [in the Lyons study], but no one really knows. >There are some expert opinions which estimated that reduced risk can be >accounted mostly to higher ALA. > Juhana Intriguing. But sort of suprising - I mean, I thought the philosophy of both the Lyons study and the Portfolio study were that these factors are synergystic, not linearly additive. So you can't separate them and say, e.g., "ALA gets 40% of the credit, fiber gets 18%." If you recall the ref for those expert opinions, do post it. I'd be particularly interested in seeing the rationale for separating the effects of ALA vs the fatty fish. DRT ::: It may well be the case that the ALA is responsible for 40% of the ::: improvement [in the Lyon's study], but no one really knows. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] : factors are synergystic, not linearly additive. So you can't separate : them and say, e.g., "ALA gets 40% of the credit, fiber gets 18%." Synergistic effect is of course possible also, but as far as I know, it has not been proved either. : If you recall the ref for those expert opinions, do post it. I'd be : particularly interested in seeing the rationale for separating the : effects of ALA vs the fatty fish. I tried to find some but I did not succeed at this time but I'll post them if I can find any. At the moment I think that in order to get the best protection it is good to have both ALA and long chain omega-3 fatty acids in the diet. SignatureJuhana > "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > It may well be the case that the ALA is responsible for 40% of the > improvement, but no one really knows. Actually, the LORD knows. For this reason, it is wise to seek HIS blessing prior to eating any meal. Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love, Andrew http://tinyurl.com/jjl29 : "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: : [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] : It may well be the case that the ALA is responsible for 40% of the : improvement, but no one really knows. Here is an interesting meta-ananalysis - although the average reduced risk is only 21%. J Nutr. 2004 Apr;134(4):919-22. Dietary alpha-linolenic acid is associated with reduced risk of fatal coronary heart disease, but increased prostate cancer risk: a meta-analysis. Brouwer IA, Katan MB, Zock PL. Wageningen Centre for Food Sciences, Wageningen, the Netherlands. The objective of this meta-analysis was to estimate quantitatively the associations between intake of alpha-linolenic acid [ALA, the (n-3) fatty acid in vegetable oils], mortality from heart disease, and the occurrence of prostate cancer in observational studies. We identified 5 prospective cohort studies that reported intake of ALA and mortality from heart disease. We also reviewed data from 3 clinical trials on ALA intake and heart disease. In addition, we identified 9 cohort and case-control studies that reported on the association between ALA intake or blood levels and incidence or prevalence of prostate cancer. We combined risk estimates across studies using a random-effects model. High ALA intake was associated with reduced risk of fatal heart disease in prospective cohort studies (combined relative risk 0.79, 95% CI 0.60-1.04). Three open-label trials also indicated that ALA may protect against heart disease. However, epidemiologic studies also showed an increased risk of prostate cancer in men with a high intake or blood level of ALA (combined relative risk 1.70; 95% CI 1.12-2.58). This meta-analysis shows that consumption of ALA might reduce heart disease mortality. However, the association between high intake of ALA and prostate cancer is of concern and warrants further study. PMID: 15051847 http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/4/919 SignatureJuhana >: "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >Brouwer IA, Katan MB, Zock PL. >Wageningen Centre for Food Sciences, Wageningen, the Netherlands. 21% is probaly not far from truth, IMHO. The study Singh RB, Niaz MA, Sharma JP, Kumar R, Rastogi V, Moshiri M. Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of fish oil and mustard oil in patients with suspected acute myocardial infarction: the Indian experiment of infarct survival--4. Cardiovasc Drugs Ther. 1997 Jul;11(3):485-91. PMID: 9310278 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=9310278> <http://www.springerlink.com/(uowdpwawmodeqi45yod5onz5)/app/home/contribution.asp ?referrer=parent&backto=issue,9,13;journal,59,140;linkingpublicationresults,1:10 2863,1> is to my knowledge the only controlled clinical trial, which has compared ALA and fish oil in CHD. Mustard oil provided 2.9 g ALA/d and fish oil provided 1.08 g of EPA (+ unspecified amount of DHA)/d. After 1 year total cardiac events were significantly less in the fish oil and mustard oil groups compared with the placebo group (24.5% and 28% vs. 34.7%, p < 0.01). If you calculate the ratios, it seems that fish oil reduced cardiac events by 29.4% and ALA by 19.3%. Moreover, total cardiac deaths showed no significant reduction in the mustard oil group; however, the fish oil group had significantly less cardiac deaths compared with the placebo group (11.4% vs. 22.0%, p < 0.05). Again calulating the ratio you get 48.2 reduction in cardiac deaths by fish oil! I'm not sure whether calcuting ratios this way is the correct way to estimate reductions, but at least it gives a rough idea. Perhaps Jim Chinnis could comment on this? So on today's evidence it seems fair to say that 2-3 g of ALA/d may reduce cardiac events and mortality by about 20%, which is probably slightly less than what can be achieved with fish oil, IMHO. See also Oomen CM, Ocke MC, Feskens EJ, Kok FJ, Kromhout D. alpha-Linolenic acid intake is not beneficially associated with 10-y risk of coronary artery disease incidence: the Zutphen Elderly Study. Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Oct;74(4):457-63. PMID: 11566643 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/74/4/457> In the landmark GISSI trial 1 g of long chain PUFAs (APE+DHA) decreased the risk of death 20%, risk of cardiovascular death 30% and risk of sudden death 45%, all of which were stastically significant. The Lyon Diet Heart Study's principal author de Lorgeril now seems to recognize that fish oil is probably at least as important as ALA in the prevention of CHD: de Lorgeril M, Salen P. The Mediterranean-style diet for the prevention of cardiovascular diseases. Public Health Nutr. 2006 Feb;9(1A):118-23. Review. PMID: 16512958 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=16512958> "... According to our current knowledge, dietary ALA should represent about 0.6 to 1% of total daily energy or about 2 g per day in patients following a Mediterranean diet, whereas the average intake in linoleic acid should not exceed 7 g per day. Supplementation with very-long-chain omega-3 fatty acids (about 1 g per day) in patients following a Mediterranean type of diet was shown to decrease the risk of cardiac death by 30% and of sudden cardiac death by 45% in the GISSI trial. CONCLUSIONS: In the context of a diet rich in oleic acid, poor in saturated fats and low in omega-6 fatty acids (a dietary pattern characterising the traditional Mediterranean diet), even small doses of omega-3 fatty acids (about 1 g EPA+DHA the form of fish oil capsules or 2 g alpha-linolenic acid in canola oil and margarine) might be very protective. These data underline the importance of the accompanying diet in any dietary strategy using fatty acid complements." SignatureMatti Narkia ::: "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: :::: [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] : reduce cardiac events and mortality by about 20%, which is probably : slightly less than what can be achieved with fish oil, IMHO. I am not very happy with this comparison. I think we would get a more accurate picture by comparing the previous ALA meta-analysis to the available fish oil meta-analysis. That comparison reveals that there is no advantage in fish oils over ALA. (Still I would like to add that this is not an either/or question as ALA and fish oils are both beneficial and complementary in their effetcs.) : See also : [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] : decreased the risk of death 20%, risk of cardiovascular death 30% and : risk of sudden death 45%, all of which were stastically significant. You are now comparing one of the worst ALA studies to one of the best fish oil trials. :-) Not very fair I would say. :-D You should also take into consideration the fact that the fish oil used in the GISSI trial was not just any fish oil but ethyl-estherised fish oil which is more efficient than ordinary fish oil. So 1 gram ethyl-estherised fish oil equites much higher amount of fish oil in its natural form. SignatureJuhana >::: "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >:::: [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > >I am not very happy with this comparison. The best way to compare two treatments is to compare them in the same controlled clinical study as was done in the above study. But of course we cannot rely on this study alone. >I think we would get a more >accurate picture by comparing the previous ALA meta-analysis to the >available fish oil meta-analysis. It could give some prespective, but it's not the best way to compare two different treatments. For the most accurate picture of efficacy differences of two treatments, they have to be compared in the same trial. That's how it's done for drugs, too. >That comparison reveals that there is no >advantage in fish oils over ALA. (Still I would like to add that this is not >an either/or question as ALA and fish oils are both beneficial and >complementary in their effetcs.) Which fish oil meta-analysis did you have in mind? >: See also >: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >You are now comparing one of the worst ALA studies to one of the best fish >oil trials. :-) Not very fair I would say. :-D It was not a comparison. The comparison was made in the controlled clinical trial by Singh et al. The dutch study was just an example showing that alpha-linolenic acid may not work in every population. If you read the study, you'll notice that the subjects were elderly men, ages 64 to 84 years, and that the explanation for the result may be that the participants may have got trans-fats in connection with alpa-linolenic acid intake. Similarly, a Norvegian CHD secondary prevention trial failed to show benefit for 880 mg of ethylester concentrate of EPA+DHA over corn oil, The reason was thought to be the relatively hy intake of fish by Norwegians, fish oil did not bring any additional benefits: Nilsen DW, Albrektsen G, Landmark K, et al. Effects of a high-dose concentrate of n-3 fatty acids or corn oil introduced early after an acute myocardial infarction on serum triacylglycerol and HDL cholesterol. Am J Clin Nutr. 2001; 74: 5056 <http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/74/1/50> Participants resided in a coastal area and all patients received a diet rich in fish products, so they probably already had relatively high EPA and DHA level before the study, and additional EPA+DHA did not bring any benefits. So it seems that both ALA and EPA+DHA may not bring benefit in all populations. There is a discussion of possible mechanisms, by which omega-3 fatty acids may prevent CVD in Kris-Etherton PM, Harris WS, Appel LJ; American Heart Association. Nutrition Committee. Fish consumption, fish oil, omega-3 fatty acids, and cardiovascular disease. Circulation. 2002 Nov 19;106(21):2747-57. Erratum in: Circulation. 2003 Jan 28;107(3):512. PMID: 12438303 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/106/21/2747> SignatureMatti Narkia There is not much research on krill oil, but study Bunea R, El Farrah K, Deutsch L. Evaluation of the effects of Neptune Krill Oil on the clinical course of hyperlipidemia. Altern Med Rev. 2004 Dec;9(4):420-8. PMID: 15656713 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15656713&> <http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/9/4/420.pdf> <http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_4_9/ai_n9485702> reports impressive results in lipid profile: with the highest dose tested (3 g/d) LDL was reduced 39% and HDL was increased 60%. Krill oil contains EPA and DHA, but also some antixidants including vitamins A and E, astaxanthin, and a novel flavonoid similar to 6,8-di-c-glucosylluteolin, but with two or more glucose molecules and one aglycone. Unfortunately krill oil is still fairly expenesive here in Finland. In USA prices seem to be much more tolerable. SignatureMatti Narkia > There is not much research on krill oil, but study > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Unfortunately krill oil is still fairly expenesive here in Finland. In > USA prices seem to be much more tolerable. As I child Cod liver oil a daily event for our family/ Found this. ......................... 1: Ann Nutr Metab. 2006 Feb 23;50(3):270-276 [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids in the Diet and Breast Milk of Lactating Icelandic Women with Traditional Fish and Cod Liver Oil Consumption. Olafsdottir AS, Thorsdottir I, Wagner KH, Elmadfa I. Unit for Nutrition Research, Landspitali - University Hospital & Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition, University of Iceland, Reykjavik, Iceland. Background/Aims: The proportion of polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) in the diet and breast milk of lactating women with traditional fish and cod liver oil consumption was investigated under free-living conditions. Methods: Dietary intake of 77 lactating women was investigated by 24-hour recalls and breast milk samples were taken at the same occasions. Maternal intake data was calculated and fatty acid pattern from breast milk samples analyzed with gas chromatography. Results: Women using cod liver oil (n = 18) had a significantly higher total PUFA intake (14 +/- 10 vs. 9 +/- 7 g/day; 5.0 +/- 3.4 vs. 3.9 +/- 3.0 Energy%; p < 0.05) than women who did not use it (n = 59). In particular, mothers consuming cod liver oil had higher breast milk proportion of docosahexaenoic acid (DHA, 0.54 vs. 0.30%, p < 0.05). They also had higher breast milk proportions of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA; 0.16 vs.0.07%; p < 0.05) and docosapentaenoic acid (DPA; 0.22 vs. 0.17%; p < 0.05). Conclusion: The proportion of PUFA in the diet is significantly higher among women consuming cod liver oil. Its use also gives higher proportion of EPA,DPA and DHA in breast milk without decreasing other important fatty acids. As this may have an impact on the health and development of breast-fed infants in later life, regular maternal cod liver oil intake could be relevant for the infant as well as for the nutritional adequacy of the maternal diet. Copyright (c) 2006 S. Karger AG, Basel. PMID: 16508255 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher] SignatureS Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. : As I child Cod liver oil a daily event for our family/ : [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] : : PMID: 16508255 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher] The maternal intake of vitamin A should be considered also as cod live oil is very high in vitamin A. Large amounts of vitamin A during pregnancy are harmful and not more than 5.000 IU shoud be taken daily. I would not recommend cod liver oil for pregnant women! Purified fish oils + vitamin D would be a better choice. SignatureJuhana >It was not a comparison. The comparison was made in the controlled >clinical trial by Singh et al. The dutch study was just an example [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Am J Clin Nutr. 2001; 74: 5056 ><http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/74/1/50> Actually, each capsule contained 850882 mg of EPA+DHA as ethylesters. The daily dose was 2 x 2 capsules, which makes 3400 - 3528 mg of EPA+DHA daily. Sorry about the mistake. SignatureMatti Narkia ::::: "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: :::::: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] : The best way to compare two treatments is to compare them in the same : controlled clinical study as was done in the above study. One of the problems is that the source is obscure from a Western point of view. Mustard oil is not commonly used in the Western countries and also the quality of mustard oil is not known. Results that apply to it may not apply to common sources of ALA in Western countries. : But of course we cannot rely on this study alone. Certainly not. :: I think we would get a more :: accurate picture by comparing the previous ALA meta-analysis to the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : differences of two treatments, they have to be compared in the same : trial. That's how it's done for drugs, too. If cold-pressed canola or rape seed oil would be compared fish oils that would be a more relevant study for Westerners as it would simulate the possibilities available in real life. :: That comparison reveals that there is no :: advantage in fish oils over ALA. (Still I would like to add that :: this is not an either/or question as ALA and fish oils are both :: beneficial and complementary in their effetcs.) :: : Which fish oil meta-analysis did you have in mind? I am aware that there are several and that they give different results. Perhaps all of them should be taken in to account although I am suspicious of the last one where no benefit was found. ::: See also ::: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] :: : It was not a comparison. Any way, I ment that you cherry-picked examples to prove your point. That was my point. : The comparison was made in the controlled : clinical trial by Singh et al. The dutch study was just an example [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] : PMID: 12438303 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] : <http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/106/21/2747> Yep, I have seen the statement. |
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