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Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / May 2006

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Elevated potassium levels - Help

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sethna - 03 May 2006 13:41 GMT
My father is having elevated potassium levels . The doctor says it is
beacuse of ace-inhibitor he is on . He doesnot take bananas , oranges
which has high K content . He is a diabetic .

Are there any good suppliments available for normalising K levels ?
What dietary care he need to take . Please help .

s
Susan - 03 May 2006 14:22 GMT
> My father is having elevated potassium levels . The doctor says it is
> beacuse of ace-inhibitor he is on . He doesnot take bananas , oranges
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> s

Your father should have his kidney function checked.

Susan
sethna - 03 May 2006 15:42 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Susan

  His kidney function , liver and  thyroid are all OK .
Doctor had prescribed Lasix - 20 mg on alternate days .

s
Susan - 03 May 2006 15:44 GMT
>    His kidney function , liver and  thyroid are all OK .
> Doctor had prescribed Lasix - 20 mg on alternate days .

Is he staying well hydrated?  What are his post meal blood glucose
numbers like?  Is his calcium intake adequate?

Susan
sethna - 03 May 2006 15:51 GMT
He takes 1500 mg of calcium + 400 units of vitamin D , plenty of water
.
Glucose fasting 98 - 104 -, post meal 138 - 145 .

s
Susan - 03 May 2006 17:43 GMT
> He takes 1500 mg of calcium + 400 units of vitamin D , plenty of water
> .
>  Glucose fasting 98 - 104 -, post meal 138 - 145 .
>
> s

How long post meal is that, and what diabetes meds, if any, is he on?

Susan
Alf Christophersen - 03 May 2006 21:21 GMT
>He takes 1500 mg of calcium + 400 units of vitamin D , plenty of water

Checked it is potassium free? Are he using any sodium reduced table
salt (mostly using 40% potassium as substitute)
Mr. Natural-Health - 03 May 2006 15:38 GMT
> My father is having elevated potassium levels . The doctor says it is
> beacuse of ace-inhibitor he is on . He doesnot take bananas , oranges
> which has high K content . He is a diabetic .

Nothing wrong with eating food, even for a diabetic.  Here, is a search
engine that will answer your questions.

http://yarrow.best.vwh.net/Usda_data/foods.cgi?state_num=5

Here are a few examples.

Per 100 grams (about 3 ounces) of each food.
1491.000 mg    Bananas
1400.000 mg    Nuts, almond meal
2288.500 mg    Whey [which is protein powder]
6300.000 mg    Parsley
2570.000 mg    Soy flour [how about soy protein powder?]
513.000 mg    Beef,
500.000 mg    Pork,

The best choices appear to come from spices. Surely, you can add some
spices to his food?

> Are there any good suppliments available for normalising K levels ?

Potassium supplements should be avialable from any seller of vitamins.
Javi - 03 May 2006 22:46 GMT
>>My father is having elevated potassium levels . The doctor says it is
>>beacuse of ace-inhibitor he is on . He doesnot take bananas , oranges
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> The best choices appear to come from spices. Surely, you can add some
> spices to his food?

Spices? Which spices? Do you call "banana", "almond" or "whey" spices?
And anyway, spices are usually used in small amounts. Do you propose an
all-spice meal? Something like "parsley stew"?

>>Are there any good suppliments available for normalising K levels ?
>
> Potassium supplements should be avialable from any seller of vitamins.

Great idea (or lousy reading comprehension): her father is having
elevated potassium levels, so let's him have more potassium in the form
of supplements.

--
   Javi
Jason - 03 May 2006 16:10 GMT
> My father is having elevated potassium levels . The doctor says it is
> beacuse of ace-inhibitor he is on . He doesnot take bananas , oranges
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> s

S.,
Your doctor is correct. Ace Inhibitors can cause potassium retention problems.
The only way to make the problem go away is for the doctor to provide a
different medication. Your father should drink lots of water.

PMID: 1553691
PMID: 7646822

You may want to do a google search for
Pub Med
NCBI
National Library of Medicine
hyperkaliemia

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sethna - 03 May 2006 16:21 GMT
> > My father is having elevated potassium levels . The doctor says it is
> > beacuse of ace-inhibitor he is on . He doesnot take bananas , oranges
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
> We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

  Sometime back he was prescribed Aldectone but the cardialogist
asked him to stop and take Lasix . Can he get rid of Ace-inhibitor and
start using Aldectone . Does it have adverse efffect on Diabetes ?

s
Jason - 03 May 2006 16:44 GMT
> > > My father is having elevated potassium levels . The doctor says it is
> > > beacuse of ace-inhibitor he is on . He doesnot take bananas , oranges
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> s

S.,
Trust the judgement of the doctor but please let the doctor know about
potassium retention problem that was caused by the Ace Inhibitor. You may
want to do a google search related to the medications that you mentioned.
I believe that you may have been referring to Aldactone instead of Aldectone.
I am not familiar with a drug called Aldectone. I am not a doctor. Perhaps
someone else may answer the questions about the medications.  
Jason

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We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

Susan - 03 May 2006 17:45 GMT
>    Sometime back he was prescribed Aldectone but the cardialogist
> asked him to stop and take Lasix . Can he get rid of Ace-inhibitor and
> start using Aldectone . Does it have adverse efffect on Diabetes ?
>
> s

Any prescriptive advice you find here will be worth exactly what you pay
for it.  You're going to have to do some research and discuss your
findings with the doctor.

Susan
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 03 May 2006 22:05 GMT
> My father is having elevated potassium levels . The doctor says it is
> beacuse of ace-inhibitor he is on . He doesnot take bananas , oranges
> which has high K content . He is a diabetic .
>
> Are there any good suppliments available for normalising K levels ?
> What dietary care he need to take . Please help .

It should be a simple matter for your dad's doctor to change the
ace-inhibitor to a different anti-hypertensive medication that is not
associated with elevated potassium levels.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal
(Rev. 6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this
thread here during the next on-line chat (05/04/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST,
LORD willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for
how the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
Hugh Jarse - 03 May 2006 23:48 GMT
Earthquack, MD/PhD wrote:
> > My father is having elevated potassium levels . The doctor says it is
> > beacuse of ace-inhibitor he is on . He doesnot take bananas , oranges
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> ace-inhibitor to a different anti-hypertensive medication that is not
> associated with elevated potassium levels.

Wow! that's some bedside, or should I say graveside manner. In any case
a 'tell' for a psychological profile that is convergent with that of
the late Dr Harold Shipman.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 04 May 2006 00:25 GMT
> Andrew wrote:
> > > My father is having elevated potassium levels . The doctor says it is
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Wow! that's some bedside, or should I say graveside manner.

If Sethna's dad's doctor continues the ace-inhibitor despite the
hyperkalemia it soon might be graveside.

Truth is simple.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal
(Rev. 6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this
thread here during the next on-line chat (05/04/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST,
LORD willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for
how the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
Jason - 04 May 2006 01:44 GMT
> > Andrew wrote:
> > > > My father is having elevated potassium levels . The doctor says it is
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> Andrew
> http://tinyurl.com/zlaml

Andrew,
I agree with you. Thanks for the excellent advice for Sethna and for all
of the other people that you have provided advice to during your life.
Keep up the great work. I hope that Sethna throws the ace-inhibitor pills
into the trash can before the end of this day as a result of your advice.
Jason


Jason

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We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

David Rind - 04 May 2006 02:57 GMT
>>>Andrew wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> into the trash can before the end of this day as a result of your advice.
> Jason

As usual, I don't understand what makes Jason feel that he has the
knowledge to judge an issue such as the suggestion to stop ACE
inhibitors. It's nice that Dr. Chung is so sure that the ACE inhibitors
should be switched, but apparently the doctor who is actually treating
this patient has some reason to want to maintain the ACE inhibitor.

Of course it's always possible that that doctor is a fool, but it's also
possible that he knows something about the clinical situation that we
don't. There are lots of diabetic patients with moderate renal
insufficiency and type IV RTA who get hyperkalemic on ACE inhibitors but
where people try hard to maintain them on ACE inhibitors anyway to try
to prevent progression of renal failure. It's not a trivial situation
and doctors here might want to exercise some caution in the advice they
give. That nonclinicians might want to be cautious in the advice they
give would seem to go without saying, but apparently it doesn't.

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 04 May 2006 04:38 GMT
> >>>Andrew wrote:
> >>>>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> should be switched, but apparently the doctor who is actually treating
> this patient has some reason to want to maintain the ACE inhibitor.

The suggestion is for the patient to ask his doctor for a simple change
to a anti-hypertensive medication without the potential for the adverse
effect of hyperkalemia rather than for the patient to take it upon
himself to either demand or make the change himself because of any
certainty that the ace-inhibitor must be changed.  

It is a concern that you, Dr. David Rind, are having difficulties
understanding what is plainly and simply written.  Your misconstruing
this discussion brings me to question your integrity and truthfulness.

For this reason, you will be in my prayers, dear David whom I love in
Jesus' most supremely holy name.

"My LORD **and** my GOD!" -- Archetypal Atheist "Doubting" Thomas upon
seeing the risen Jesus Christ.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life... " -- LORD Jesus Christ

In truth, I most assuredly know the LORD to be kind, just and right.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat(05/04/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST, LORD
willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
Jason - 04 May 2006 05:28 GMT
> > >>>Andrew wrote:
> > >>>>
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
> Andrew
> http://tinyurl.com/zlaml

This message is for Dr. David Rind:
I suggest that you read these two reports:
PMID: 7646822
PMID: 1553691
I will quote from one of the above PMID reports:
"A number of drugs affect potassium levels by a variety of different
mechanisms....  ACE inhibitors may produce hyperkalaemia...."

Of course, Sethna's dad's doctor should prescribe another medication to take
the place of the ACE inhibitor. Andrew made that point in his post and I saw
no reason to repeat his advice.
Jason

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We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

David Rind - 04 May 2006 12:08 GMT
> This message is for Dr. David Rind:
> I suggest that you read these two reports:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> no reason to repeat his advice.
> Jason

It's nice again that you are providing me with the useful information
that ACE inhibitors cause hyperkalemia, particularly without quoting the
portion of my post where I wrote:

> There are lots of diabetic patients with moderate renal insufficiency
> and type IV RTA who get hyperkalemic on ACE inhibitors but where people
> try hard to maintain them on ACE inhibitors anyway to try to prevent
> progression of renal failure.

Rather than telling me about a well-known side effect of ACE inhibitors,
why don't you discuss the appropriate management of the situation I
described above?

And, if you don't know a lot about ACE-inhibitor-induced hyperkalemia in
patients like this, perhaps you should not be quite so sure that: "Of
course, Sethna's dad's doctor should prescribe another medication to
take the place of the ACE inhibitor."

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 04 May 2006 12:27 GMT
> > This message is for Dr. David Rind:
> > I suggest that you read these two reports:
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> course, Sethna's dad's doctor should prescribe another medication to
> take the place of the ACE inhibitor."

It seems you would attempt to stifle Jason with your MD training.

If you had more integrity, you would publicly acknowledge that
hyperkalemia is an immediately lifethreatening condition whereas neither
moderate renal insufficiency nor type 4 renal tubular acidosis (RTA) can
kill someone outright.

Still praying for you, dear David whom I love in Jesus' invincible,
infintely powerful, and most holy name.

"My LORD **and** my GOD!" -- Archetypal Atheist "Doubting" Thomas upon
seeing the risen Jesus Christ.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life... " -- LORD Jesus Christ

In truth, I most assuredly know the LORD to be kind, just and right.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat(05/04/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST, LORD
willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
David Rind - 05 May 2006 00:31 GMT
> It seems you would attempt to stifle Jason with your MD training.

I would certainly like to stifle Jason from giving out potentially
dangerous medical advice. The same goes for others in this group who
post such advice.

> If you had more integrity, you would publicly acknowledge that
> hyperkalemia is an immediately lifethreatening condition whereas neither
> moderate renal insufficiency nor type 4 renal tubular acidosis (RTA) can
> kill someone outright.

Doctors and patients frequently tolerate mild degrees of hyperkalemia to
allow for the continued renal protection of being on an ACE inhibitor.
Ending up on dialysis is not all that pleasant and many people would
accept some slight increased risk of death for a significant decrease in
the risk of dialysis.

What I'll publicly acknowledge is that I do not have adequate
information based on the original posting to be providing medical
advice. There are certainly situations in which I would consider keeping
someone on an ACE inhibitor in the face of hyperkalemia to be extremely
dangerous and extremely foolish. But I don't know enough to know whether
this was one of those situations. Why are you so sure it was?

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

Susan - 05 May 2006 01:47 GMT
> I would certainly like to stifle Jason from giving out potentially
> dangerous medical advice. The same goes for others in this group who
> post such advice.

I'd like to stifle all the Chun*g cross posts, while we're at it.  Care
to trim some of those headers?

You can't stifle anyone on usenet, generally, so you may as well give up
trying.  All you can do, really, is to provide more accurate, reliable
information and assume the readers are discerning enough to make the
right call.  :-/

Just sayinzall.

Susan
Jim Chinnis - 05 May 2006 01:57 GMT
Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in part:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Susan

As a Usenet veteran of many, many years, I can say Susan is absolutely
right. The one thing everyone is absolutely powerless to do is to change
whether anyone else posts or what they say. And trying to do so creates more
disruption than the original posters do.

Kill filters are your friend.
--
Jim Chinnis  Warrenton, Virginia, USA  jchinnis@alum.mit.edu
Susan - 05 May 2006 02:00 GMT
> As a Usenet veteran of many, many years, I can say Susan is absolutely
> right. The one thing everyone is absolutely powerless to do is to change
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Kill filters are your friend.
> --

For instance, I couldn't even remind myself not to effing cross post!!

(Or you, for that matter!).

Susan
David Rind - 05 May 2006 02:19 GMT
> You can't stifle anyone on usenet, generally, so you may as well give up
> trying.  All you can do, really, is to provide more accurate, reliable
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Susan

I'm well aware, and have no interest in censoring Jason, Andrew Chung,
or anyone else who wants to post to a public newsgroup.

But as Dr. Chung said, my posts aimed at Jason are an attempt to
"stifle" him in the sense that I would like to get him to voluntarily
stop posting potentially dangerous medical advice.

You are also likely correct that my attempts will fail....

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

Susan - 05 May 2006 03:53 GMT
> I'm well aware, and have no interest in censoring Jason, Andrew Chung,
> or anyone else who wants to post to a public newsgroup.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You are also likely correct that my attempts will fail....

But at least you trimmed your headers, thanks!  :-)

I can't believe you actually read and reply to Chu*g.

Susan
David Wright - 05 May 2006 05:37 GMT
>> You can't stifle anyone on usenet, generally, so you may as well give up
>> trying.  All you can do, really, is to provide more accurate, reliable
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>You are also likely correct that my attempts will fail....

Everyone else's have failed.  Mine sure did.  Jason just has an
irresistable urge to give bad advice, and ain't nobody going to
stop him.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 05 May 2006 01:53 GMT
> > It seems you would attempt to stifle Jason with your MD training.
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> dangerous and extremely foolish. But I don't know enough to know whether
> this was one of those situations. Why are you so sure it was?

I have seen enough SCDs from iatrogenic hyperkalemia to know the wisdom
of erring on the side of caution.

Still praying for you, dear David whom I love in Jesus' most precious
and holy name.

"My LORD **and** my GOD!" -- Archetypal Atheist "Doubting" Thomas upon
seeing the risen Jesus Christ.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life... " -- LORD Jesus Christ

In truth, I most assuredly know the LORD to be kind, just and right.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat(05/11/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST, LORD
willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
REP - 04 May 2006 13:10 GMT
> > There are lots of diabetic patients with moderate renal insufficiency
> > and type IV RTA who get hyperkalemic on ACE inhibitors but where people
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> why don't you discuss the appropriate management of the situation I
> described above?

I'm not Jason, but can I play?  Furosemide therapy?

Signature

"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather

David Rind - 05 May 2006 00:22 GMT
>>>There are lots of diabetic patients with moderate renal insufficiency
>>>and type IV RTA who get hyperkalemic on ACE inhibitors but where people
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I'm not Jason, but can I play?  Furosemide therapy?

That's certainly a reasonable thought, though I wasn't suggesting there
was a single answer. Just that it's an inherently tricky situation since:

1) Hyperkalemia can be dangerous
2) Progressive renal failure is bad
3) ACE inhibitors worsen hyperkalemia but are protective for the kidneys.

It seemed to me from the original posting that the patient's doctor was
likely aware of all this and trying to balance various risks. Lowering
the dose of the ACE inhibitor or adding furosemide might be enough to
keep the potassium in a reasonably safe range.

Giving simple answers like "throw the ACE inhibitor in the trash" in the
face of limited information and limited knowledge is just silly.

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

Neryl Chyphes - 05 May 2006 00:30 GMT
> ...
> Giving simple answers like "throw the ACE inhibitor in the trash" in the
> face of limited information and limited knowledge is just silly.

You suggest advice from ABC PhD/MD is silly?

Goes without saying.

I note you omitted comments on his theology.

N.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 05 May 2006 01:53 GMT
> > ...
> > Giving simple answers like "throw the ACE inhibitor in the trash" in the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I note you omitted comments on his theology.

It should be noted that David has difficulties with the truth.

You will be in my prayers, dear Neryl whom I love in Jesus' most awesome
and most holy name.

"My LORD **and** my GOD!" -- Archetypal Atheist "Doubting" Thomas upon
seeing the risen Jesus Christ.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life... " -- LORD Jesus Christ

In truth, I most assuredly know the LORD to be kind, just and right.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat(05/11/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST, LORD
willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
David Rind - 04 May 2006 12:14 GMT
> The suggestion is for the patient to ask his doctor for a simple change
> to a anti-hypertensive medication without the potential for the adverse
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> understanding what is plainly and simply written.  Your misconstruing
> this discussion brings me to question your integrity and truthfulness.

How exactly should I have construed your plainly written comment:

"If Sethna's dad's doctor continues the ace-inhibitor despite the
hyperkalemia it soon might be graveside."

This seems a bit stronger to me then "you should discuss with your
doctor whether there might be better options for blood pressure control
than an ACE inhibitor, but he might decide it's still the best drug for
you and need to find something else to do about your hyperkalemia", no?

Signature

David Rind
drind@caregroup.harvard.edu

marcia - 04 May 2006 14:43 GMT
> > The suggestion is for the patient to ask his doctor for a simple change
> > to a anti-hypertensive medication without the potential for the adverse
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> than an ACE inhibitor, but he might decide it's still the best drug for
> you and need to find something else to do about your hyperkalemia", no?

Question: The OP doesn't say how elevated her dad's potassium levels
are. Is there a range above what would be considered "normal" that is
still safe, where the doctor would be justified to continue the current
treatment, while monitoring the situation?

Speaking from a patient advocacy standpoint (since I am not an MD), it
seems any statements potentially leading the OP to conclude her
father's doctor is guilty of malpractice (or following a course that
could kill him) is counter-productive to the doctor-patient
relationship and unjustified.

Hypothetical:

Suppose, for example, the doctor who prescribed the ACE inhibitor is
also the one who ordered the lab tests that revealed the hyperkalemia.
Suppose the doctor is well aware of the potential risks of this
medication but, using competent clinical judgment, determined the
current course of treatment is still viable for reasons you/we are not
aware (it's not like you have much of a history to work from here).

Suppose the doctor reveals the lab results to the daughter, who then
goes home and starts researching hyperkalemia on the net. After reading
a few articles (which may or may not be of questionable authority), she
becomes concerned by what she learns and posts a question in this
newsgroup, hoping to learn she can make dietary or lifestyle changes to
help manage her father's condition. At this point, she is not alarmed
and still appears to have confidence in the doctor.

Then, some person or people with MD tacked onto the end of their names
start talking about her father's imminent death due to hyperkalemia,
which also suggests the doctor her father is seeing is less than
competent. The situation is made worse by the fact that certain
laypeople with their own agendas chime in about malpractice. The OP,
having no context for determining the veracity of either the doctors'
or laypeople's advice, becomes alarmed.

In a panic, she then either confronts or fires the doctor, or demands
treatment that may not be the most appropriate for her father's
condition. When you consider this scenario, also consider that any
suggestions made here were done without benefit of the man's medical
history or knowledge of what other medication he may be on, and
additionally, were heresay since you don't know whether the daughter
was present during the appointment or is repeating what her father was
told.

I agree that it seems most reasonable for the daughter to approach the
doctor, tell him what she learned and what her concerns are, and get an
answer from the him (or her). The treating doctor would be in a better
position to educate her regarding her concerns and/or would be open to
making an appropriate medication change. In that situation the doctor,
patient, and daughter/advocate are working as a team for the benefit of
the patient. That system breaks down, and is perhaps irretrievably
damaged, if the daughter, acting on usenet advice, takes one of the
potential panic actions mentioned above.

If, after consulting with the treating doctor, the daughter is still
concerned about whether the ACE inhibitor is appropriate, she and her
father have the option of seeking a second opinion. The second doctor,
like the first doctor, would render his opinion based on actual
knowledge of the patient's history and other medications.

Again, speaking from the patient perspective, I think it is unwise to
create a state of fear in someone on the basis of sketchy medical
information because we, not being medical professionals, have no
context in which to weigh any speculation that might arise from our
questions.

Imo, the most reasonable course would be to suggest she contact her
father's doctor for more information.
sethna - 04 May 2006 17:17 GMT
> > > The suggestion is for the patient to ask his doctor for a simple change
> > > to a anti-hypertensive medication without the potential for the adverse
[quoted text clipped - 85 lines]
> Imo, the most reasonable course would be to suggest she contact her
> father's doctor for more information.

      What a lovely answer you had given . Yes , I need to see the
doctor
next week and will discuss in detail and seek his advise . Many thanks
again .

s
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 04 May 2006 17:53 GMT
> > > > The suggestion is for the patient to ask his doctor for a simple change
> > > > to a anti-hypertensive medication without the potential for the adverse
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
>
> s

If it be GOD's will, may HE keep your dad from suffering a lethal
ventricular tachyarrhythmia from the hyperkalemia in the interim, in
Jesus' most precious and holy name.

Amen.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat today (05/04/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST,
LORD willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
marcia - 04 May 2006 18:20 GMT
> If it be GOD's will, may HE keep your dad from suffering a lethal
> ventricular tachyarrhythmia from the hyperkalemia in the interim, in
> Jesus' most precious and holy name.

You might pray for humility.

Fortunately, the OP exhibits the intelligence and common sense to deal
with her concerns in a responsible and reasonable way.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 04 May 2006 19:15 GMT
> > If it be GOD's will, may HE keep your dad from suffering a lethal
> > ventricular tachyarrhythmia from the hyperkalemia in the interim, in
> > Jesus' most precious and holy name.
>
> You might pray for humility.

That automatically happens with the act of praying for the arrogant are
unable to pray.

> Fortunately, the OP exhibits the intelligence and common sense to deal
> with her concerns in a responsible and reasonable way.

Without the LORD, there can be neither knowledge nor wisdom.

You will be in my prayers, Marcia whom I love in the holy name of GOD's
one and only beloved Son, Jesus.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat today (05/04/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST,
LORD willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 04 May 2006 20:41 GMT
> > The suggestion is for the patient to ask his doctor for a simple change
> > to a anti-hypertensive medication without the potential for the adverse
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> "If Sethna's dad's doctor continues the ace-inhibitor despite the
> hyperkalemia it soon might be graveside."

In the context of what was written earlier:

"It should be a simple matter for your dad's doctor to change the
ace-inhibitor to a different anti-hypertensive medication that is not
associated with elevated potassium levels."

Still praying for you, dear David whom I love in the holy name of GOD's
one and only beloved Son, Jesus.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat today (05/04/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST,
LORD willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
Mr. Natural-Health - 05 May 2006 00:07 GMT
> For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
> the LORD has reshaped me:

Well, just as long as neither you nor conventional medicine had
anything to do with it. :(
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 05 May 2006 01:53 GMT
> > For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
> > the LORD has reshaped me:
>
> Well, just as long as neither you nor conventional medicine had
> anything to do with it. :(

Thankfully :-)

"My LORD **and** my GOD!" -- Archetypal Atheist "Doubting" Thomas upon
seeing the risen Jesus Christ.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life... " -- LORD Jesus Christ

In truth, I most assuredly know the LORD to be kind, just and right.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat(05/11/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST, LORD
willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
Mr. Natural-Health - 05 May 2006 02:55 GMT
> > > For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
> > > the LORD has reshaped me:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Thankfully :-)

My blood pressure has gone up, somewhat.

It is now around 100/64.

I tend to believe that I have something to do with it, namely diet and
exercise. Actually, it is not very hard to achieve at all.  And, I
certainly am not a runner or a jogger.

No way would I take prescription medication.

Just thought that you might want to get real.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 05 May 2006 08:06 GMT
> > > > For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
> > > > the LORD has reshaped me:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> No way would I take prescription medication.

That would be your choice.  Certainly, there is no indication for
anti-hypertensive medications in your case.

> Just thought that you might want to get real.

The truth is real.

Still praying for you, dear John whom I love in Jesus' most awesome and
most holy name.

"My LORD **and** my GOD!" -- Archetypal Atheist "Doubting" Thomas upon
seeing the risen Jesus Christ.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life... " -- LORD Jesus Christ

In truth, I most assuredly know the LORD to be kind, just and right.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat(05/11/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST, LORD
willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
Mr. Natural-Health - 05 May 2006 14:14 GMT
> > My blood pressure has gone up, somewhat.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> That would be your choice.  Certainly, there is no indication for
> anti-hypertensive medications in your case.

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

All prescription medication, at best, should be taken on a temporary
basis.

The Natural Hygiene Movement nailed the primary problem of conventional
medicine back during the middle of the 19th century.  It is truer
today, than it was back then.

ADR deaths are real.

Just thought that the fools might want to wake up before their
physician kills them.  Eating a healthy diet really isn't all that bad.

Beware of people addicted to butter!!!
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 05 May 2006 14:29 GMT
> > > My blood pressure has gone up, somewhat.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> All prescription medication, at best, should be taken on a temporary
> basis.

That would be ideal and is possible through the healing power of the
Holy Spirit.

"My LORD **and** my GOD!" -- Archetypal Atheist "Doubting" Thomas upon
seeing the risen Jesus Christ.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life... " -- LORD Jesus Christ

In truth, I most assuredly know the LORD to be kind, just and right.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat(05/11/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST, LORD
willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
David Wright - 06 May 2006 05:07 GMT
>> > My blood pressure has gone up, somewhat.
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>All prescription medication, at best, should be taken on a temporary
>basis.

Hear that, all you type 1 diabetics?  John doesn't want you taking
your insulin more than temporarily.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
Mr. Natural-Health - 06 May 2006 07:30 GMT
> Hear that, all you type 1 diabetics?  John doesn't want you taking
> your insulin more than temporarily.

If that is the best that you can do, don't quite your day job.

Do you comprehend ADR as being a cause of death, let alone a major
cause of death in the USA, for the elderly?

Now perhaps you might comprehend, that all High Blood Pressure
medication should be taken on a temporary basis, until you get it under
control by eating a proper diet, exercising, deep breath or whatever?

Yeah, ... right, sure:  Make sure I got all my 'T's crossed; but let
1,000's of patients die each year from ADRs.

ADR stands for Adverse Drug Reactions.

The Natural Hygiene Movement observed in the 19th Century that
conventional medicine prescribes toxic drugs that develop side effects.
Then they prescribe more toxic medication to treat the side effects of
the first medications.  And, in the end, the patient ends up dying from
the medication that supposedly was taken to save them in the first
place.

Can you comprehend that simple concept, Stupid?

Boy are you a Slime Bucket!!!

Boy are YOU a moron!!!

Just thought that you might want to know.
Mr. Natural-Health - 06 May 2006 07:35 GMT
David Wright wrote:

> Hear that, all you type 1 diabetics?  John doesn't want you taking
> your insulin more than temporarily.

If that is the best that you can do, don't quit your day job.

Do you comprehend ADR as being a cause of death, let alone a major
cause of death in the USA, for the elderly?

Now perhaps you might comprehend, that all High Blood Pressure
medication should be taken on a temporary basis, until you get it under
control by eating a proper diet, exercising, deep breath or whatever?

Yeah, ... right, sure:  Make sure I got all my 'T's crossed; but let
1,000's of patients die each year from ADRs.

ADR stands for Adverse Drug Reactions.

The Natural Hygiene Movement observed in the 19th Century that
conventional medicine prescribes toxic drugs that develop side effects.
Then they prescribe more toxic medication to treat the side effects of
the first medications.  And, in the end, the patient ends up dying from
the medication that supposedly was taken to save them in the first
place.

Can you comprehend that simple concept, Stupid?

Boy are you a Slime Bucket!!!

Boy are YOU a moron!!!

Just thought that you might want to know.
David Wright - 07 May 2006 19:21 GMT
>>Mr Unnatural-Acts wrote:
>>>All prescription medication, at best, should be taken on a
>>>temporary basis.

>> Hear that, all you type 1 diabetics?  John doesn't want you taking
>> your insulin more than temporarily.
>
>If that is the best that you can do, don't quite your day job.

If your clumsy editing job is the best that you can do, and I know
that it is, don't quit yours, assuming you have one (denture adhesive
tester or some such, I suppose).  I've restored the text you snipped
out, since you're clearly trying to run away from it.  

>Do you comprehend ADR as being a cause of death, let alone a major
>cause of death in the USA, for the elderly?

Sure.  Which has nothing to do with the fact that some prescription
medications do need to be taken continually.

>Now perhaps you might comprehend, that all High Blood Pressure
>medication should be taken on a temporary basis, until you get it under
>control by eating a proper diet, exercising, deep breath or whatever?

Oh, *high blood pressure* medication.  Too bad you were too doltish to
put in this qualification the first time around.

>Yeah, ... right, sure:  Make sure I got all my 'T's crossed; but let
>1,000's of patients die each year from ADRs.
>
>ADR stands for Adverse Drug Reactions.

So it does.  

>The Natural Hygiene Movement observed in the 19th Century that
>conventional medicine prescribes toxic drugs that develop side effects.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Can you comprehend that simple concept, Stupid?

Sure.  It's so simple that it's wrong.

Just thought you might want to know.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
marcia - 07 May 2006 21:48 GMT
> >The Natural Hygiene Movement observed in the 19th Century that
> >conventional medicine prescribes toxic drugs that develop side effects.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Just thought you might want to know.

Of course it's wrong! Any good student the 19th-century knows that
*electricity* cures everything.  ;)

In the 19th-century, doctors did sometimes prescribe toxic
substances--like arsenic and strychnine--to their patients. And
unlicensed quacks promoted tonics containing turpentine and alcohol.
However, that was over 100 years ago. Medical science has advanced
since then, as has our understanding of chemistry, physiology and
microbiology. Today, all prescription pharmaceuticals (in the US, and
many other developed countries) are subject to lengthy pre-clinical and
clinical trials to *try* to ensure both safety and efficacy before
they're made available to the public.

If you want to argue that the process isn't perfect, you'd be correct.
Yes, many medications have unpleasant side-effects, and yes, sometimes
the side-effects are unexpectedly toxic or deadly. OTOH, advances in
pharmacology have saved many lives, and made many others significantly
more bearable.

If someone who is really sick followed the "natural hygiene" movement
in search of cure, the most likely outcome would be a quicker, more
painful death. What a wonderful recommendation for your side.
Jacob Johnson - 07 May 2006 21:58 GMT
David Wright wrote:
> In article <1146897036.652118.76950@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> Mr. Natural-Health <johngohde@naturalhealthperspective.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Just thought you might want to know.


Of course it's wrong! Any good student the 19th-century knows that
*electricity* cures everything.  ;)

In the 19th-century, doctors did sometimes prescribe toxic
substances--like arsenic and strychnine--to their patients. And
unlicensed quacks promoted tonics containing turpentine and alcohol.
However, that was over 100 years ago. Medical science has advanced
since then, as has our understanding of chemistry, physiology and
microbiology. Today, all prescription pharmaceuticals (in the US, and
many other developed countries) are subject to lengthy pre-clinical and
clinical trials to *try* to ensure both safety and efficacy before
they're made available to the public.

If you want to argue that the process isn't perfect, you'd be correct.
Yes, many medications have unpleasant side-effects, and yes, sometimes
the side-effects are unexpectedly toxic or deadly. OTOH, advances in
pharmacology have saved many lives, and made many others significantly
more bearable.

If someone who is really sick followed the "natural hygiene" movement
in search of cure, the most likely outcome would be a quicker, more
painful death. What a wonderful recommendation for your side.

I have a question for you:
Do you believe that someone that has high blood pressure should try to
reduce the blood pressure by changing their diet and exercising on
a regular schedule before taking medication?
Jason
marcia - 07 May 2006 22:19 GMT
> I have a question for you:
> Do you believe that someone that has high blood pressure should try to
> reduce the blood pressure by changing their diet and exercising on
> a regular schedule before taking medication?
> Jason

I believe a person should consult his or her doctor for the answer that
question. Since I am NOT a doctor (and you're not either), I can't give
a definitive answer to that question. But I suspect a wise course of
action would be to change the diet and start an exercise program WHILE
taking antihypertensives. When--or if--the person successfully changes
his/her lifestyle *and the doctor thinks he/she may be able to maintain
normal blood pressure without medication,* then they would likely be
justified in discontinuing the medication while monitoring the
situation.

I do know this: not everyone who has high blood pressure is overweight,
out of shape, or eats an unhealthy diet. Some people have high blood
pressure for other reasons (which I can't elaborate). Under those
conditions, changing diet and exercising more would probably not be an
effective treatment.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 07 May 2006 23:54 GMT
> > I have a question for you:
> > Do you believe that someone that has high blood pressure should try to
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> conditions, changing diet and exercising more would probably not be an
> effective treatment.

Actually, current estimates are that 95% of folks with hypertension have
a predisposition to develop essential hypertension, which is
hypertension for which there is no identifiable cause.

Obesity does not cause hypertension but does raise blood pressure in
folks who have an underlying susceptibility.

"My LORD **and** my GOD!" -- Archetypal Atheist "Doubting" Thomas upon
seeing the risen Jesus Christ.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life... " -- LORD Jesus Christ

In truth, I most assuredly know the LORD to be kind, just and right.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat(05/11/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST, LORD
willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
marcia - 07 May 2006 23:57 GMT
> Actually, current estimates are that 95% of folks with hypertension have
> a predisposition to develop essential hypertension, which is
> hypertension for which there is no identifiable cause.
>
> Obesity does not cause hypertension but does raise blood pressure in
> folks who have an underlying susceptibility.

Thank you. :)
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 08 May 2006 00:47 GMT
> > Actually, current estimates are that 95% of folks with hypertension have
> > a predisposition to develop essential hypertension, which is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Thank you. :)

You are welcome, Marcia :-)

Redirecting all thanks and praises to the LORD, Whom I love with all my
heart, soul, mind and strength.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat(05/11/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST, LORD
willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
Mr. Natural-Health - 08 May 2006 04:51 GMT
> Actually, current estimates are that 95% of folks with hypertension have
> a predisposition to develop essential hypertension, which is
> hypertension for which there is no identifiable cause.

Actually, your signature tells me that you are a total fruit loop.

Sorry, to inform YOU but when I go to a physician I want to talk to a
real doctor.  You are just a mental case.  Keep your Jesus crap to
yourself, in the future Quack!

You probably think that the Moon is made out of green cheese, too.

Oh!  That is right.  You are the idiot who dreamed up the 2 pound diet.
Need I say more?  No I don't think so.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 08 May 2006 05:22 GMT
> > Actually, current estimates are that 95% of folks with hypertension have
> > a predisposition to develop essential hypertension, which is
> > hypertension for which there is no identifiable cause.
>
> Actually, your signature tells me that you are a total fruit loop.

Without the LORD, your opinion is meaningless (Ecclesiastes).

You will be in my prayers, dear John whom I love in the holy name of
GOD's one and only precious Son, Jesus.

"My LORD **and** my GOD!" -- Archetypal Atheist "Doubting" Thomas upon
seeing the risen Jesus Christ.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life... " -- LORD Jesus Christ

In truth, I most assuredly know the LORD to be kind, just and right.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat(05/11/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST, LORD
willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
Mr. Natural-Health - 08 May 2006 14:32 GMT
> Without the LORD, your opinion is meaningless (Ecclesiastes).

If that were true empirically, people would go visit their minister
every time they became sick.

They don't.

You have my condolences.

The 2 Pound diet documents your lack of scientific ability quite
nicely. :)
Mr. Natural-Health - 07 May 2006 23:00 GMT
> Do you believe that someone that has high blood pressure should try to
> reduce the blood pressure by changing their diet and exercising on
> a regular schedule before taking medication?

Perhaps, if you were to concentrate?

Can you say temporary?

Don't know the definition of temporary?  It is in the dictionary.

My original statements on the above are perfectly valid.  Why don't you
try reading for once?
marcia - 07 May 2006 23:10 GMT
> > Do you believe that someone that has high blood pressure should try to
> > reduce the blood pressure by changing their diet and exercising on
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> My original statements on the above are perfectly valid.  Why don't you
> try reading for once?

I think he was responding to my post (since that's what was quoted). I
think we agree the best case scenario would be for antihypertensives to
be a *temporary* solution, assuming the person was able to lose weight
and become more fit, *and* that had a positive impact on his blood
pressure.

But again, I think that decision should be made in consultation with a
doctor. Most people aren't successful at making such dramatic lifestyle
changes or at sticking with them once initiated, and meanwhile, the
unmedicated are more likely to stroke out or suffer other negative
consequences of their hypertension.

You would have more credibility if you didn't communicate in insults.
Mr. Natural-Health - 07 May 2006 23:28 GMT
> >The Natural Hygiene Movement observed in the 19th Century that
> >conventional medicine prescribes toxic drugs that develop side effects.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Sure.  It's so simple that it's wrong.

Wrong!

R. T. Trall, /The True Healing Art: Or, Hygienic vs. Drug Medication/,
(speech given in 1862). New York, Fowler & Wells, Publishers, Reprinted
1880.
http://www.whale.to/v/trall.htm

"There are several branches or sects of the Drug Medical System--the
Allopathic, Homeopathic, Eclectic, Physio-Medical, etc. But they are
essentially one and the same. They all differ in certain secondary and
unimportant problems and theories; but they all agree in primary
premises. They are all reducible to the fundamental proposition of
"curing one disease by producing another[i.e., side-effects]." They are
all based on the principle of inducing a drug disease[i.e.,
side-effects] to cure a primary disease. It is true that Eclecticism
and Physio-Medicalism do not recognize this principle; but it is true
nevertheless.

Drug Medication, no matter in what disguise nor under what name it is
practiced, consists in employing, as remedies for diseases, those
things which produce disease[i.e., side-effects] in well persons. Its
materia medica is simply a list of drugs, chemicals, and dyestuffs--in
a word, poisons. They may be vegetable, animal, or mineral, and may be
called "apothecary stuff" or medicines; but they are, nevertheless,
poisons. They may come to us in the shape of acids, alkalis, salts,
oxides, earths, roots, barks, seeds, leaves, flowers, gums, resins,
secretions, excretions, etc., but all are subversive of organic
structures; all are incompatible with vital functions; all are
antagonistic to living matter; all produce disease[i.e., side-effects]
when brought in contact in any manner with the living domain; truly all
are poisons.
...
I would reject drugs if there were no other remedial agents in the
universe, because, if I could not do good, I would "cease to do evil" I
would not poison a person because he is sick. No physician has ever yet
given the world a reason that would bear the ordeal of one moment's
scientific examination, why a sick person should be poisoned more than
should a well person; and I do not believe the world will endure until
he finds such a reason. The medical profession may prosecute this
inquiry another three thousand years, and destroy other hundreds of
millions of the human race in experiments with drugs and doses, but
they will never arrive any nearer to a solution of the problem. They
will never be able to give a satisfactory answer to the question, for
none exists.
...
Who has not heard of Dr. Jennings, now of Oberlin, Ohio? Some years ago
he practiced medicine in Derby, Conn. Being a close observer and a very
conscientious man, and, withal, something of a philanthropist, he
became a "reformer," and what all true reformers must be in the world's
estimation, a "radical," an "ultraist," a "one-idealist," a "fanatic,"
etc. He became fully convinced that the system of drug medication was
all wrong; that drugs, instead of curing persons, or aiding Nature to
cure them, really hindered the cure, or changed the primary malady to a
drug disease[i.e., side-effect] as bad or worse; and to put the matter
to the proof, he practiced for several years without giving a particle
of medicine of any kind. But his patients did not know it. The people
did not mistrust that they were humbugged out of their diseases;
cheated into health; deceived into saving the greater part of their
doctor's bills, all of their apothecary's bills, and the better part of
their constitutions. Under Dr. Jennings' administration, diseases
seemed to have lost all of their malignancy and danger, and to have
assumed a singularly mild and manageable form, type, and diathesis. He
gave harmless placebos--colored water, sugar pellets, and starch
powders, to keep up confidence and furnish the mind with some charm of
mysteriousness to rest its faith upon and then he directed such
attention to Hygienic conditions as would enable Nature to work the
cure in the best possible manner and in the shortest possible time.
...
To give drugs is adding to the causes of disease; for drugs always
produce disease[i.e., side-effects]. Indeed, they cure one disease,
when they cure at all, by producing others[i.e., side-effects]. Can
causes cure causes? Can poisons expel poisons? Can impurities deterge
away impurities? Can Nature throw off two or more burdens more easily
than one? No, never."
marcia - 07 May 2006 23:37 GMT
> > >The Natural Hygiene Movement observed in the 19th Century that
> > >conventional medicine prescribes toxic drugs that develop side effects.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> 1880.
> http://www.whale.to/v/trall.htm

Note the date of the speech was 1862, a mere 144 years ago. How is this
"information" applicable TODAY????
Mr. Natural-Health - 07 May 2006 23:44 GMT
> > > >The Natural Hygiene Movement observed in the 19th Century that
> > > >conventional medicine prescribes toxic drugs that develop side effects.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Note the date of the speech was 1862, a mere 144 years ago. How is this
> "information" applicable TODAY????

Perhaps, if you were to concentrate?

Count backwards 144 years till you reach the 19th Century as noted
below.

Boy, are you a dim wit.  Hey marcia I think your light bulb burnt out
long ago.

> >The Natural Hygiene Movement observed in the 19th Century that
> >conventional medicine prescribes toxic drugs that develop side effects.
> > Then they prescribe more toxic medication to treat the side effects of
> >the first medications.  And, in the end, the patient ends up dying from
> >the medication that supposedly was taken to save them in the first place.

> >Can you comprehend that simple concept, Stupid?
marcia - 07 May 2006 23:56 GMT
> > > > >The Natural Hygiene Movement observed in the 19th Century that
> > > > >conventional medicine prescribes toxic drugs that develop side effects.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Boy, are you a dim wit.  Hey marcia I think your light bulb burnt out
> long ago.

You are trying to draw conclusions about 21st-century medicine from
19th-century beliefs. That doesn't even *border* on logical or rational
thinking.

But that's okay, because I've already learned that you whale.to blubber
disciples are apparently incapable of critical thought or of examining
the falacies inherent in your beliefs. When you can't back up your
claims with scientific data, you turn to irrelevent rhetoric; when you
can't back up your claims with rhetoric, you turn to childish insults.
You are nothing if not consistent.

And I don't think *I'm* the one a little short on wattage. ;)
Mr. Natural-Health - 08 May 2006 04:43 GMT
> > > > > >The Natural Hygiene Movement observed in the 19th Century that
> > > > > >conventional medicine prescribes toxic drugs that develop side effects.
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> And I don't think *I'm* the one a little short on wattage. ;)

Okay, have it your way.

Either, you are trying to be obnoxious or you are just naturally
stupid.

Frankly, I think the latter is more probable since you appear to be a
total ass-hole.

While natural hygiene has turned into nothing more than a stupid way to
lose weight for even dumber people in the new millennium, back during
the 19th century it actually stood for something.

I repeated their position in plain English sever time now.  If you are
too stupid to comprehend it, YOU are too stupid to comprehend it.

You have my condolences for being a tard. :)
marcia - 08 May 2006 14:12 GMT
> > You are trying to draw conclusions about 21st-century medicine from
> > 19th-century beliefs. That doesn't even *border* on logical or rational
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> You have my condolences for being a tard. :)

You can insult me all you want, but I think it's plain to nearly
everyone but you that the real idiot is YOU. You can't back up a single
claim with data, and you can't give a reasoned response to anyone's
questions. No *won't*, but *can't*. That's become ridiculously obvious.

Better watch out, John. I think your last brain cell is circling the
drain. :)
Mr. Natural-Health - 08 May 2006 14:39 GMT
> You can insult me all you want, but I think it's plain to nearly
> everyone but you that the real idiot is YOU. You can't back up a single
> claim with data, and you can't give a reasoned response to anyone's
> questions. No *won't*, but *can't*. That's become ridiculously obvious.

If you find reality insulting, that is your problem.

Want data?  Then try reading this thread about a patient being
adversely affected by prescribed medication, the doctor being totally
aware of the side-effect, and being totally indifferent about it.
marcia - 08 May 2006 14:56 GMT
> > You can insult me all you want, but I think it's plain to nearly
> > everyone but you that the real idiot is YOU. You can't back up a single
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> adversely affected by prescribed medication, the doctor being totally
> aware of the side-effect, and being totally indifferent about it.

First of all, **WHAT THREAD**? You didn't provide a link.

Second, even without seeing the thread, who knows the veracity of your
source?

Third, even if your source is valid, and even if that happened, it's
not at all unusual for medications to have side-effects. You don't
mention what the side-effect was, whether it was temporary (or even
fatal), or whether the benefits of the medication outweighed the
discomfort of the side-effects.

Fourth, if the patient was concerned, why didn't he/she seek a second
opinion?

Fifth, it is TOTALLY ILLOGICAL to make broad generalizations about
doctors or medication on the basis of isolated, anecdotal, heresay
reports.

Sixth, for a more detailed response, reread my earlier response to you,
which I repost here with apologies to anyone else who might still be
following this thread:

REPOST:

> >The Natural Hygiene Movement observed in the 19th Century that
> >conventional medicine prescribes toxic drugs that develop side effects.
> > Then they prescribe more toxic medication to treat the side effects of
> >the first medications.  And, in the end, the patient ends up dying from
> >the medication that supposedly was taken to save them in the first place.

> >Can you comprehend that simple concept, Stupid?

> Sure.  It's so simple that it's wrong.

> Just thought you might want to know.

Of course it's wrong! Any good student the 19th-century knows that
*electricity* cures everything.  ;)
In the 19th-century, doctors did sometimes prescribe toxic
substances--like arsenic and strychnine--to their patients. And
unlicensed quacks promoted tonics containing turpentine and alcohol.
However, that was over 100 years ago. Medical science has advanced
since then, as has our understanding of chemistry, physiology and
microbiology. Today, all prescription pharmaceuticals (in the US, and
many other developed countries) are subject to lengthy pre-clinical and

clinical trials to *try* to ensure both safety and efficacy before
they're made available to the public.

If you want to argue that the process isn't perfect, you'd be correct.
Yes, many medications have unpleasant side-effects, and yes, sometimes
the side-effects are unexpectedly toxic or deadly. OTOH, advances in
pharmacology have saved many lives, and made many others significantly
more bearable.

If someone who is really sick followed the "natural hygiene" movement
in search of cure, the most likely outcome would be a quicker, more
painful death. What a wonderful recommendation for your side.
Mr. Natural-Health - 08 May 2006 15:01 GMT
> > > You can insult me all you want, but I think it's plain to nearly
> > > everyone but you that the real idiot is YOU. You can't back up a single
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> First of all, **WHAT THREAD**? You didn't provide a link.

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

What THREAD?

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

Ah!  The scientific mind in action. :(

You have my condolences.
marcia - 08 May 2006 15:08 GMT
> > > > You can insult me all you want, but I think it's plain to nearly
> > > > everyone but you that the real idiot is YOU. You can't back up a single
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> You have my condolences.

Okay... I thought you were referring to a different thread, since
everything else you've posted has been OT to the OP's question. Did you
read ANY of the responses? From doctors?

You seem to have very selective memory and attention. I stand by my
cadaver brain transplant theory. Bye. :)
Sin ganas - 08 May 2006 05:32 GMT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It means that he graduated from medical school
approximately 140 years ago.  He still refers to
his original sources.

David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
marcia - 08 May 2006 14:15 GMT
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> It means that he graduated from medical school
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> David H
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He's not smart enough to have graduated medical school *anytime* in the
last millenium.
marcia - 08 May 2006 15:03 GMT
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> It means that he graduated from medical school
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> David H
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

New theory: experimental brain transplant from a hundred-year-old
cadaver.

Sigh. Fun for a day or two, but really, trying to communicate with him
seems to be a total waste of time.
David Wright - 11 May 2006 03:58 GMT
>> >The Natural Hygiene Movement observed in the 19th Century that
>> >conventional medicine prescribes toxic drugs that develop side effects.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>1880.
>http://www.whale.to/v/trall.htm

My, my, my.  1862.  What's the problem -- couldn't find any
appropriate quotations from Galen or Hippocrates?  The medications
available then have no relation to today.

I thought only Scudamore was dim enough to try to cite sources this
old, but now I see he has a soul brother.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
Mr. Natural-Health - 08 May 2006 05:02 GMT
> >Now perhaps you might comprehend, that all High Blood Pressure
> >medication should be taken on a temporary basis, until you get it under
> >control by eating a proper diet, exercising, deep breathing or whatever?

I stand by this statement of mime. :)

And, by the way 'or whatever' does NOT refer to taking prescription
medication indefinitely even if you pay a physician to hold your hand.
Not even, if the fruit tells you that you are NOT at fault.

You are.  People are responsible for their actions.  And, that includes
their health choices.

Who says so?  I do. Hell, even Jesus told me so. :)
Sin ganas - 09 May 2006 04:58 GMT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Marcia,

Why did you stop posting for 12 months ?
I peeked at your chart.  Were you in a rehab
program for the bipolarly  challenged ?
Just curious.

David H  (not an MD like ABC)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
marcia - 09 May 2006 13:50 GMT
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Marcia,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> David H  (not an MD like ABC)
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Not that it's any of your business, but I stopped posting because I
realized what a huge waste of time Usenet can be and chose to do other
things. I'm beginning to remember *why* I made that decision. No, I was
not "in a rehab for the bipolarly challenged." <roll eyes>
Mr. Natural-Health - 09 May 2006 18:01 GMT
> Were you in a rehab
> program for the bipolarly challenged ?

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

I think she was looking for her mind.  Unfortunately, she did not find
it. :(
Sin ganas - 11 May 2006 03:37 GMT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since you are not medically challenged, I will
ask you about my Potassium level.  I take 3
blood pressure lowering drugs daily.  Also I
take at least one 90mg tablet of potassium per
day.  My serum potassium stays at 3.6 and I
cannot make it go higher by eating apples,
canned  fruit,  and prunes regularly !!
One of
my B.P. drugs is a potassium sparing
VALSARTAN.  As you probably know, 3.5
is the minimum normal potassium value, and I
think the maximum is 4.5  The other meds are
HCTZ and Metoprolol. Also Valium titrated to
1 mg  about 3 times per week.

My occasional low potassium symptoms are
resting rapid pulse and leg cramps.

David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr. Natural-Health - 11 May 2006 15:34 GMT
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Since you are not medically challenged, I will
> ask you about my Potassium level.

Who are you replying to?

I presume that your primary problem is high blood pressure.  And, that
you are diabetic.

> I take 3
> blood pressure lowering drugs daily.

Everything on my web site, will help.
http://naturalhealthperspective.com

Dietary interventions
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/food/
Exercise interventions
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/exercise/
and Deep Breathing would be the primary therapies.
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/resilience/deep-breathing.html

Obviously, eating a low-salt diet would probably help.

> Also I
> take at least one 90mg tablet of potassium per
> day.  My serum potassium stays at 3.6 and I
> cannot make it go higher by eating apples,
> canned  fruit,  and prunes regularly !!

You get potassium from your diet.  You can search on the best food
sources, here.
http://yarrow.best.vwh.net/Usda_data/foods.cgi?state_num=5
Simply change 'calories' to 'potassium' and go through each food group.
>From previously searching on 'potassium' I noticed that cooking your
food with fresh spices would be an easy and painless way to increase
potassium in your diet.

Whole grains are in fact good for diabetics.
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/food/whole-grains.html

A high-carb Mediterranean-style diet works for everybody and can in
fact cure Syndrome-X.
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/home/lifestyle-interventions.html
http://food.naturalhealthperspective.com/sevencountriesstudy.html

> My occasional low potassium symptoms are
> resting rapid pulse and leg cramps.

For pulse rate, I believe following an aerobic exercise program for
several months should do it.  You do in fact need to progress gradually
from low-intensity to high-intensity aerobics.  Walking is a good place
to start.  Eventually, using a full-body elliptical trainer at a health
club would be the most painless way to rapidly progress to high
intensity.

I would suggest that you take Magnesium supplements for the leg cramps.
About 1,000 to 1,200 of mg a day should do it.  Actually, a magnesium
deficiency could also be causing high-blood pressure.  Magnesium should
relax your blood vessels.

I would give this program at least 3 months.  Assuming you implement my
suggestions correctly, it should in fact cure your high blood pressure.
Of course, you should be monitoring your blood-pressure.  You should
be able to gradually wean yourself off of your high-blood pressure
medication with the help of your physician.
--
John Gohde,
    Achieving good Nutrition is an Art, NOT a Science!

The nutrition of eating a healthy diet is a biological factor of the
mind-body connection. Now, weighing in at 18 web pages, the
Nutrition of a Healthy Diet is with more documentation and
sharper terminology than ever before.
http://naturalhealthperspective.com/food/
Jason Johnson - 11 May 2006 19:06 GMT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since you are not medically challenged, I will
ask you about my Potassium level.  I take 3
blood pressure lowering drugs daily.  Also I
take at least one 90mg tablet of potassium per
day.  My serum potassium stays at 3.6 and I
cannot make it go higher by eating apples,
canned  fruit,  and prunes regularly !!
One of
my B.P. drugs is a potassium sparing
VALSARTAN.  As you probably know, 3.5
is the minimum normal potassium value, and I
think the maximum is 4.5  The other meds are
HCTZ and Metoprolol. Also Valium titrated to
1 mg  about 3 times per week.

My occasional low potassium symptoms are
resting rapid pulse and leg cramps.

David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

David,
I suggest that you request from your doctor kidney function
and liver function blood tests. Discuss with your doctor the
results of those blood tests. Please post any items that are
outside the normal limits. I also suggest that you read this
book since it has a chapter entitled:
"Treat Potassium Problems" and another one entitled:
"Treat Gout and and Uric Acic Problems"

Here's the name of the book:
"Coping With Kidney Disease" by Mackenzie Walser, M.D. (kidney specialist)
Jason Johnson - 11 May 2006 21:34 GMT
In article <1147315069.015157.87290@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "Sin
ganas" <dcholiman@ev1.net> wrote:

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Since you are not medically challenged, I will
 ask you about my Potassium level.  I take 3
 blood pressure lowering drugs daily.  Also I
 take at least one 90mg tablet of potassium per
 day.  My serum potassium stays at 3.6 and I
 cannot make it go higher by eating apples,
 canned  fruit,  and prunes regularly !!
 One of
 my B.P. drugs is a potassium sparing
 VALSARTAN.  As you probably know, 3.5
 is the minimum normal potassium value, and I
 think the maximum is 4.5  The other meds are
 HCTZ and Metoprolol. Also Valium titrated to
 1 mg  about 3 times per week.
 
 My occasional low potassium symptoms are
 resting rapid pulse and leg cramps.
 
 David H
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

David,
I suggest that you request from your doctor kidney function
and liver function blood tests. Discuss with your doctor the
results of those blood tests. Please post any items that are
outside the normal limits. I also suggest that you read this
book since it has a chapter entitled:
"Treat Potassium Problems" and another one entitled:
"Treat Gout and and Uric Acic Problems"

Here's the name of the book:
"Coping With Kidney Disease" by Mackenzie Walser, M.D. (kidney specialist)

Update:
I done some more research for you and found out that
a product that you can purchase at a health food store
named "Dandelion" might help you. It contains lots of
potassium but in some cases can cause potassium retention
which would be one of the reasons you might not want to
take it since having high levels of potassium can cause
medical problems.
This is an excellent book that should help you:
"The Acid-Alkaline Diet" by Christopher Vasey, N.D.
If your book store does not have it, visit this site:

www.innertraditions.com
If that does not work, do a google search for
Healing Arts Press
and
Inner Traditions
David Wright - 12 May 2006 02:57 GMT
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Since you are not medically challenged, I will
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>Here's the name of the book:
>"Coping With Kidney Disease" by Mackenzie Walser, M.D. (kidney specialist)

David, the best advice anyone here will give you is to ignore jason
completely.  He is not a doctor, has no medical training, and usually
has no idea what he's talking about, but none of those things ever
stop him from giving advice.

 -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 04 May 2006 04:38 GMT
> > > Andrew wrote:
> > > > > My father is having elevated potassium levels . The doctor says it is
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> I agree with you. Thanks for the excellent advice for Sethna and for all
> of the other people that you have provided advice to during your life.

You are welcome.

Would redirect all thanks, praise, and glory to the LORD whom I love
with all my being.

> Keep up the great work. I hope that Sethna throws the ace-inhibitor pills
> into the trash can before the end of this day as a result of your advice.

This would be wise only upon the approval of Sethna's dad's doctor(s)
who would also provide an alternative anti-hypertensive(s) to replace
the ace-inhibitor.

Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like
cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the Lamb's opening of the 6th seal (Rev.
6:12), cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread
here during the next on-line chat(05/04/06) from 5 to 6 pm EST, LORD
willing:

http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq

For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:

http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo

Prayerfully in Christ's love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/zlaml
Mr. Natural-Health - 04 May 2006 13:06 GMT
> My father is having elevated potassium levels . The doctor says it is
> beacuse of ace-inhibitor he is on . He doesnot take bananas , oranges
> which has high K content . He is a diabetic .

> > The suggestion is for the patient to ask his doctor for a simple change
> > to a anti-hypertensive medication without the potential for the adverse
> > effect of hyperkalemia rather than for the patient to take it upon
> > himself to either demand or make the change himself because of any
> > certainty that the ace-inhibitor must be changed.

My question is this.

The physician knows that his patient has elevated potassium levels
which is being caused by the particular ace-inhibitor that he has
prescribed.

So, why shouldn't this physician be sued for male practice and have his
license to practice medicine taken away from him?

Or, are physicians simply in the business of killing their patients
with ADRs?
Mr. Natural-Health - 04 May 2006 13:15 GMT
> My father is having elevated potassium levels . The doctor says it is
> beacuse of ace-inhibitor he is on . He doesnot take bananas , oranges
> which has high K content . He is a diabetic .

> > The suggestion is for the patient to ask his doctor for a simple change
> > to a anti-hypertensive medication without the potential for the adverse
> > effect of hyperkalemia rather than for the patient to take it upon
> > himself to either demand or make the change himself because of any
> > certainty that the ace-inhibitor must be changed.

My question is this.

The physician knows that his patient has elevated potassium levels
which is being caused by the particular ace-inhibitor that he has
prescribed.

So, why shouldn't this physician be sued for male practice and have his
license to practice medicine taken away from him?

Or, are physicians simply in the business of killing their patients
with ADRs?
listener - 04 May 2006 21:09 GMT
>> My father is having elevated potassium levels . The doctor says it is
>> beacuse of ace-inhibitor he is on . He doesnot take bananas , oranges
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Or, are physicians simply in the business of killing their patients
> with ADRs?

If it were me, I'd sue him for female practice.

L.
Mr. Natural-Health - 05 May 2006 14:20 GMT
> > The physician knows that his patient has elevated potassium levels
> > which is being caused by the particular ace-inhibitor that he has
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> If it were me, I'd sue him for female practice.

That would work only if the Doc was a female. :(

Just thought that you might want to know.
 
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