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Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / March 2006Methionine increases heart disease risk
High dietary methionine increases the risk of heart disease according to a Finnish study. Meat is high in methionine, an amino acid. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nutr Metab Cardiovasc Dis. 2006 Mar;16(2):113-20. Epub 2005 Nov 2. High dietary methionine intake increases the risk of acute coronary events in middle-aged men. Virtanen JK, Voutilainen S, Rissanen TH, Happonen P, Mursu J, Laukkanen JA, Poulsen H, Lakka TA, Salonen JT. Research Institute of Public Health, University of Kuopio, PO Box 1627, 70211 Kuopio, Finland. BACKGROUND AND AIM: Homocysteine, a methionine metabolite, is suggested to be a risk factor for cardiovascular diseases (CVD). To date, the effects of dietary intake of methionine, the key amino acid in homocysteine metabolism, on CVD have not been studied. Our aim was to examine the effects of dietary methionine intake on the risk of acute coronary events. METHODS AND RESULTS: We examined the effects of dietary methionine intake, assessed with 4-d food record, on acute coronary events in a prospective cohort study consisting of 1981 coronary disease free men from eastern Finland, aged 42-60years at baseline in 1984-89, in the Kuopio Ischaemic Heart Disease Risk Factor (KIHD) Study. During an average follow-up time of 14.0years, 292 subjects experienced an acute coronary event. In a Cox proportional hazards model adjusting for age, examination years, BMI, urinary nicotine metabolites and protein intake (excluding methionine) the relative risks of acute coronary event in the three highest quarters of dietary methionine intake were 1.31 (95% CI: 0.92, 1.86), 1.31 (95% CI: 0.88, 1.96) and 2.08 (95% CI: 1.31, 3.29) as compared with the lowest quarter. Further adjustments did not change the results. However, opposite association was observed with total protein intake, which tended to decrease the risk. CONCLUSIONS: The main finding of this study is that long-term, moderately high dietary methionine intake may increase the risk of acute coronary events in middle-aged Finnish men free of prior CHD. More prospective research is needed to confirm the role of dietary methionine in the development of CVD, and whether its effects are independent of homocysteine. PMID: 16487911 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=16487911&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum  SignatureJuhana Impotence can be caused by chronic diseases of the lungs kidneys, liver,heart, nerves and arteries. Endocrine system disorders like diabetes may also lead to ED problems. Adequate blood from to the penis can be hampered due to the accumulation of deposits (plaques) in the arteries causing ED. Low levels of the hormone testosterone (male hypogonadism) in some men may also lead to ED. Impotence can be caused by chronic diseases of the lungs kidneys, liver,heart, nerves and arteries. Endocrine system disorders like diabetes may also lead to ED problems. Adequate blood from to the penis can be hampered due to the accumulation of deposits (plaques) in the arteries causing ED. Low levels of the hormone testosterone (male hypogonadism) in some men may also lead to ED. "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >However, opposite association was observed with total >protein intake, which tended to decrease the risk. So...I wonder which effect is larger when eating meat. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu : Juhana Harju wrote in part: : :: However, opposite association was observed with total :: protein intake, which tended to decrease the risk. : : So...I wonder which effect is larger when eating meat. I got the impression that the methionine effect is stronger in when eating meat, but I have not seen the full study. SignatureJuhana On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 21:54:20 +0200, Juhana Harju wrote in <news:47ragaFgrevnU1@individual.net> on sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition : >: Juhana Harju wrote in part: >: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I got the impression that the methionine effect is stronger in when eating > meat, but I have not seen the full study. horse-mackerel 4.90g methionine /100g farmed trout fillets 4.89g grapes 4.60g ... beefsteak 2.90g X'Posted to: sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition : On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 21:54:20 +0200, Juhana Harju wrote in : <news:47ragaFgrevnU1@individual.net> on [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] : horse-mackerel 4.90g methionine /100g : farmed trout fillets 4.89g Where did you get these figures? These are not correct. According to NutritionData the highest value of methionine is _dried_ Atlantic cod, which contains 1.86 g methionine/ 100g (http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-015084000000000000000-w.html) Some fish is high in methionine, but fish also contains some healthy substances like long chain omega-3 fatty acids, phospholipids and selenium which outweigh the harmful effect of high methionine, IMHO. : grapes 4.60g That is not a correct figure either. Grapes contain about 16-21 mg methionine/ 100 g (http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-B00001-01c20Ux.html) : ... : beefsteak 2.90g SignatureJuhana > : On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 21:54:20 +0200, Juhana Harju wrote in > : <news:47ragaFgrevnU1@individual.net> on [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > : ... > : beefsteak 2.90g I'd hazard a guess that the act of eating is somewhat hazardous. Some foods like celery are innocuous yet we need more. So in the wisdom of our bodies we can eat all sorts of things and somehow take what we need and excrete the rest. Small items that are studied while perhaps true may not look at relationship aspects. Perhaps the ability to excrete wisely is diminished in time. I do not know but I try to eat smarter now than 40 years ago, but this knowledge is tainted by commercial folks trying to sell. Years ago I trusted my cats on what breads were the most desirable. Bill ..now where is that Japanese blow fish ;)) Bill SignatureLocated In S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. Vision Problems? Look at http://www.ocutech.com/ ~us$1500 On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 00:04:52 +0200, Juhana Harju wrote in <news:47rhbtFh985gU1@individual.net> on sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition : >: On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 21:54:20 +0200, Juhana Harju wrote in >: <news:47ragaFgrevnU1@individual.net> on [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >: >: horse-mackerel 4.90g methionine /100g Correction... That should read.... horse-mackerel 4.90g methionine /100g *protein* It is the ratio of methionine on total protein in a given food. I think the methionine / total protein balance is meaningful, as methionine is the bad guy, but total protein is the good guy... :) > Where did you get these figures? From the INRAN (Italian Institute for Food and Nutrition Research) data base > These are not correct. According to > NutritionData the highest value of methionine is _dried_ Atlantic cod, which > contains 1.86 g methionine/ 100g > (http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-015084000000000000000-w.html) 1.86 *mg* :) > Some fish is high in methionine, Some cheese too, and even pine nuts (731 mg /100 g according to Inran). > but fish also contains some healthy > substances like long chain omega-3 fatty acids, phospholipids and selenium [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That is not a correct figure either. Grapes contain about 16-21 mg > methionine/ 100 g (http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-B00001-01c20Ux.html) You are right again, I didn't report that correctly... it's methionine on total protein. >: beefsteak 2.90g X'Posted to: sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition SignatureEnrico C * cut the ending "cut-togli.invalid" string when replying by email * : On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 00:04:52 +0200, Juhana Harju wrote in : <news:47rhbtFh985gU1@individual.net> on [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] : : It is the ratio of methionine on total protein in a given food. OK. *Now* I understand. :-) : I think the methionine / total protein balance is meaningful, as : methionine is the bad guy, but total protein is the good guy... :) That makes sense. On the other hand, one should consider other bad and good guys as well, as in the case of fish which contains EPA and DHA. :: Where did you get these figures? : [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] : : 1.86 *mg* :) No. Look at the link I gave to you. It says 1859 mg which equates 1.86 g. ;-) :: Some fish is high in methionine, : [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] : You are right again, I didn't report that correctly... it's methionine : on total protein. OK. ::: beefsteak 2.90g SignatureJuhana On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:09:50 +0200, Juhana Harju wrote in <news:47sdp7Fgtrr3U1@individual.net> on sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition : >: 1.86 *mg* :) > > No. Look at the link I gave to you. It says 1859 mg which equates 1.86 g. > ;-) Righto! :) X'Posted to: sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: Juhana Harju wrote in part: >: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I got the impression that the methionine effect is stronger in when eating >meat, but I have not seen the full study. I'm trying to get a copy. But I guess from the abstract one would conclude that eating foods with high ratios of protein to methionine is good. I guess that means more fruits and veggies and legumes and less meat, fish, and dairy. Maybe this will turn out to be a killer for the low-carb diet... This would create a challenge for me, since it's easier to keep weight off by watching carbs than by any other route I've tried. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > would create a challenge for me, since it's easier to keep weight off by > watching carbs than by any other route I've tried. It is wiser to watch how much you are eating rather than watching carbs. This is "easier" once you have befriended your healthy appetite (aka hunger) which increases with a nutritious varied diet that includes carbs. Will be available to "glow" and chat about this and other things like cardiology, diabetes, Bird Flu, the 2006 global earthquake advisory, cooking and nutrition that interest those following this thread here during the next on-line chat (03/16/06) from 6 to 7 pm EST: http://tinyurl.com/8w7uq For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how the LORD has reshaped me: http://tinyurl.com/7mcuo Prayerfully in Christ's love, Andrew http://tinyurl.com/rgsp8 : "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: : [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] : : I'm trying to get a copy. Please inform us more if you get one. : But I guess from the abstract one would : conclude that eating foods with high ratios of protein to methionine [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : it's easier to keep weight off by watching carbs than by any other : route I've tried. That is actually in line what I have been suggesting for people with insulin resistance and abdominal fat. I have been saying that for them it would be a good idea to limit carbs within the context of Mediterranean diet. That means consuming less red meat, but more legumes. I also think that EPA and DHA and other beneficial substances in fish outweigh the negative effect of high methionine in fish. So fish and especially fatty fish can be eaten. Actually the recent dietary recommendations of the Joslin diabetes center end up recommending this kind of diet also, although the word Mediterranean is not mentioned. SignatureJuhana On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 03:14:09 GMT, Jim Chinnis wrote in <news:0plh12lgj3vvldk7jhsiuas034a348fpq7@4ax.com> on sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition : > I'm trying to get a copy. But I guess from the abstract one would conclude > that eating foods with high ratios of protein to methionine is good. I guess > that means more fruits Depends. Grapes have a very high methionine/total protein ratio. 4.90g methionine /100g protein > and veggies and legumes and less meat, Depends. Venison meat has only 1.84g methionine /100g protein. > fish, Depends. Fresh anchovies are as low as 2.08. > and dairy. Depends. Ewe's milk ricotta has 2.13. > Maybe this will turn out to be a killer for the low-carb diet... I still trust my grandfather's words more than anything. "Eat a bit of everything". > This > would create a challenge for me, since it's easier to keep weight off by > watching carbs than by any other route I've tried. It's easy to overeat carbs. To avoid that risk, choose your sources of carbohydrate among the more satiating ones, usually those rich in fiber. X'Posted to: sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition Enrico C <use_replyto_address@despammed.com> wrote in part: >I still trust my grandfather's words more than anything. >"Eat a bit of everything". "Everything" depends upon what is available to you that seems to be food. "Everything" is changing all the time. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > I'm trying to get a copy. But I guess from the abstract one would conclude > that eating foods with high ratios of protein to methionine is good. I guess > that means more fruits and veggies and legumes and less meat, fish, and > dairy. Maybe this will turn out to be a killer for the low-carb diet... This > would create a challenge for me, since it's easier to keep weight off by > watching carbs than by any other route I've tried. Since some non-meat foods such as nuts are high in methionine and the meats are close to equal in methionine per amount of protein, it will probably be easier to add vitamin B6, B12, and folic acid to reduce the amount of homocysteine in the blood. And since the proteins high in methionine have a higher quality, less protein is needed which may have other benefits. SignatureRon "Ron Peterson" <ron@shell.core.com> wrote in part: >> I'm trying to get a copy. But I guess from the abstract one would conclude >> that eating foods with high ratios of protein to methionine is good. I guess [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >probably be easier to add vitamin B6, B12, and folic acid to reduce the >amount of homocysteine in the blood. Not according to the latest studies. They find a trend to worsening heart disease from taking vitamin B6, B12, and folic acid. Homocysteine appears to be a marker and not a cause. >And since the proteins high in methionine have a higher quality, less >protein is needed which may have other benefits. But higher protein intake was associated with better outcomes. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA : "Ron Peterson" <ron@shell.core.com> wrote in part: :: Since some non-meat foods such as nuts are high in methionine and the :: meats are close to equal in methionine per amount of protein, it will [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : heart disease from taking vitamin B6, B12, and folic acid. : Homocysteine appears to be a marker and not a cause. I agree with Jim. :: And since the proteins high in methionine have a higher quality, less :: protein is needed which may have other benefits. Ron, I think that that has very little meaning if you look at the diet as whole and not single sources of protein. SignatureJuhana > "Ron Peterson" <ron@shell.core.com> wrote in part: > >> I'm trying to get a copy. But I guess from the abstract one would conclude > >> that eating foods with high ratios of protein to methionine is good. I guess > >> that means more fruits and veggies and legumes and less meat, fish, and > >> dairy. Maybe this will turn out to be a killer for the low-carb diet... This > >> would create a challenge for me, since it's easier to keep weight off by > >> watching carbs than by any other route I've tried. > >Since some non-meat foods such as nuts are high in methionine and the > >meats are close to equal in methionine per amount of protein, it will > >probably be easier to add vitamin B6, B12, and folic acid to reduce the > >amount of homocysteine in the blood. > Not according to the latest studies. They find a trend to worsening heart > disease from taking vitamin B6, B12, and folic acid. Homocysteine appears to > be a marker and not a cause. Which studies are you referring to? > >And since the proteins high in methionine have a higher quality, less > >protein is needed which may have other benefits. > But higher protein intake was associated with better outcomes. Adding beans and peas, which are low in methionine, to the diet would be one way to effectively reduce methionine intake (reducing meat and grains a bit). Since methionine is an essential amino acid, it shouldn't be reduced too much. SignatureRon "Ron Peterson" <ron@shell.core.com> wrote in part: >> "Ron Peterson" <ron@shell.core.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Which studies are you referring to? I recall seeing three controlled studies that failed to find a benefit from folate, with or without B6 and B12. Two were very recent, the HOPE-2 and NORVIT trials: The Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation (HOPE) 2 Investigators. Homocysteine lowering with folic acid and B vitamins in vascular disease. N Engl J Med 2006; DOI:10.1056/NEJMoa060900. Bønaa KH, Njølstad I, Ueland PM, et al, for the NORVIT Trial Investigators. Homocysteine lowering and cardiovascular events after acute myocardial infarction. N Engl J Med 2006; DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa055227. >> >And since the proteins high in methionine have a higher quality, less >> >protein is needed which may have other benefits. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >grains a bit). Since methionine is an essential amino acid, it >shouldn't be reduced too much. I'm just wondering what the full text of the subject methione paper says about the tradeoff of protein (less methionine) and methionine. I still don't have a copy. The journal isn't exactly a major one... -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu >I recall seeing three controlled studies that failed to find a benefit from >folate, with or without B6 and B12. Two were very recent, the HOPE-2 and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Homocysteine lowering and cardiovascular events after acute myocardial >infarction. N Engl J Med 2006; DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa055227. Anyone tried betain in addition. Reports on betaine show that B-vitamins cannot exchange for betaine deficiency, neither can betaine exchange B-vitamins completely. One report I saw mentioned about 60% methyl groups from betaine and the rest through B-vitamins was an optimum. Maybe as betaine fed as choline is the best. A backside of betaine is that dimethylglycin break down to formate in the end. >A backside of betaine is that dimethylglycin break down to formate in >the end. Glycine, together with glutamine and (N-Acetyl-)cysteine, is a glutathione precursor, though. I supplement with the latter two plus trimethylglycine (betaine). >Glycine, together with glutamine and (N-Acetyl-)cysteine, is a >glutathione precursor, though. I supplement with the latter two plus >trimethylglycine (betaine). Dimethyl-glycine is not the same as glycine :-) I was talking about dimethyl-glycine (nreakdownproduct from betaine (trimethylglycine) ) Dimethylglycine split off CH3 as formate and form sarcosine (methylglycine). Sarcosine in turn split off amother formate ion and form glycine. (But this is a minor route to glycine formation :-) ) Alf Christophersen <alf.christophersen@medisin.uio.no> wrote in part: >>I recall seeing three controlled studies that failed to find a benefit from >>folate, with or without B6 and B12. Two were very recent, the HOPE-2 and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Anyone tried betain in addition. I did. I had no strokes or MIs... -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA > Anyone tried betain in addition. Reports on betaine show that > B-vitamins cannot exchange for betaine deficiency, neither can betaine > exchange B-vitamins completely. One report I saw mentioned about 60% > methyl groups from betaine and the rest through B-vitamins was an > optimum. Maybe as betaine fed as choline is the best. http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Supp/Betaine.htm gives some useful information on betaine. One supplement is for use as a digestive aid and other forms are more suitable for homocysteine reduction. SignatureRon >http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Supp/Betaine.htm gives some useful >information on betaine. One supplement is for use as a digestive aid >and other forms are more suitable for homocysteine reduction. Wheat bran is the cheapest way. Data sheets tell 1g / 100 g bran :-) So, bran is good for your health. Also barley and oat is excellent sources. And beet root grown under salty condition (the reason why the stuff is named betaine, from the plant first found in, beta vulgaris grown in salty area. In normal soil almost devoid of it. It is used for keeping water turgor at highest level plus as wettening agent of different molecules inside cells. "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: >: Juhana Harju wrote in part: >: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I got the impression that the methionine effect is stronger in when eating >meat, but I have not seen the full study. Finally got a copy. From the full text: "The age and examination year adjusted RRs of acute coronary event in quarters of energy adjusted protein intake were 1.0, 0.89 (95% CI, 0.66 to 1.22), 0.86 (95% CI, 0.63 to 1.18) and 0.78 (95% CI, 0.56 to 1.09). If energy adjusted methionine intake was added in the models, the RRs for quarters of energy adjusted protein intake (excluding methionine) were 1.0, 0.76 (95% CI, 0.55 to 1.05), 0.63 (95% CI, 0.44 to 0.91) and 0.43 (95% CI, 0.27 to 0.70). Further adjustments did not change the result." And, "After adjustment for age, examination years, BMI, urine nicotine metabolites and protein intake (excluding methionine) the RRs of acute coronary events in the three highest quarters of energy adjusted methionine intake were 1.31 (95% CI, 0.92 to 1.86), 1.31 (95% CI, 0.88 to 1.96) and 2.08 (95% CI, 1.31 to 3.29) as compared with the lowest quarter. Further adjustments for cardiovascular risk factors did not change the result." Yikes. Are we confused yet? I guess if we believe that the research actually found a significant effect anywhere, we might do a back-of-the-envelope look at the comparative swings of top to bottom quartile RRs for protein (less methionine) and methionine. For the former, we have RR = 0.43 and for the latter we have RR = 2.08. (1/0.43 = 2.33.) So the protein effect is the stronger one by that crude analysis, anyway. Confirming that, the corresponding RR for protein NOT adjusted for methionine is 0.78 (non-significant). So...consuming more protein along with its TYPICAL varied methionine load DECREASES coronary events. Not exactly what one might take home from the abstract... -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA : "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in part: ::: Juhana Harju wrote in part: [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] : load DECREASES coronary events. Not exactly what one might take home : from the abstract... Jim, thanks for posting the data and your comment. They could have been more explicit but I guess your interpretation is correct. Still the results suggest that it is healthier to choose sources of protein which are low in methionine. But to make it even more complicated, the healthiness of protein intake depends on the quality of carbs and fats, too. ;-) SignatureJuhana On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 07:10:21 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in <news:48rr98FllilsU1@individual.net> on sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition : > Jim, thanks for posting the data and your comment. They could have been more > explicit but I guess your interpretation is correct. Still the results > suggest that it is healthier to choose sources of protein which are low in > methionine. Not too low, though, as methionin is an essential amino acid. > But to make it even more complicated, the healthiness of protein > intake depends on the quality of carbs and fats, too. ;-) A varied diet is the best choice, imho, to be pretty sure that you don't get too much or too little of any nutrient. X'Posted to: sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 07:10:21 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in <news:48rr98FllilsU1@individual.net> on sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition : > Jim, thanks for posting the data and your comment. They could have been more > explicit but I guess your interpretation is correct. Still the results > suggest that it is healthier to choose sources of protein which are low in > methionine. Not too low, though, as methionine is an essential amino acid. > But to make it even more complicated, the healthiness of protein > intake depends on the quality of carbs and fats, too. ;-) A varied diet is the best choice, imho, to be pretty sure that you don't get too much or too little of any nutrient. X'Posted to: sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition X'Posted to: sci.med.cardiology,sci.med.nutrition : On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 07:10:21 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in : <news:48rr98FllilsU1@individual.net> on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : : Not too low, though, as methionine is an essential amino acid. In practise you can not become deficient of any amino acid if you just eat enough calories. You can get all essential amino acids automatically from any reasonable diet. The most limiting amino acid in a vegetarian diet is lysine, as far as I know. But even that is provided sufficiently by a balanced vegetarian diet. (I am not a vegetarian.) SignatureJuhana > : On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 07:10:21 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in > : <news:48rr98FllilsU1@individual.net> on [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > lysine, as far as I know. But even that is provided sufficiently by a > balanced vegetarian diet. (I am not a vegetarian.) It's not difficult at all to get this right. Lysine is lower in grains, but either legumes (beans, lentils, etc) or dairy, or both (add yogurt) fixes this completely. B12 can be a vegan issue, but the store are worth five years... The real problem with vegetarian diets is non-vegetarians. Something to do with denial or guilt or stupidity. Either that or they just can't cook creatively! Chypho... >> : On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 07:10:21 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in >> : <news:48rr98FllilsU1@individual.net> on [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > to do with denial or guilt or stupidity. Either that or they just can't cook > creatively! I did make a mistake once of living with a protein intake (well balanced) of about 30 gm/day. This is not enough (well, not for me). You will get colds and slow recovery if you try this. But 50 gm/day (0.8 gm/Kg in my case at the time) was fine. Chypho... ::: On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 07:10:21 +0300, Juhana Harju wrote in ::: <news:48rr98FllilsU1@individual.net> on [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] : grains, but either legumes (beans, lentils, etc) or dairy, or both : (add yogurt) fixes this completely. I know. : B12 can be a vegan issue, but the store are worth five years... It can be an issue for lactovegetarians also as they have more frequently suboptimal B12 values than meat eaters. Not to mention vitamin D... SignatureJuhana >lysine, as far as I know. But even that is provided sufficiently by a >balanced vegetarian diet. (I am not a vegetarian.) Only if you eat the vegetables raw. Lysine is damaged during heating. :: lysine, as far as I know. But even that is provided sufficiently by a :: balanced vegetarian diet. (I am not a vegetarian.) : : Only if you eat the vegetables raw. Lysine is damaged during heating. Meat is heated also in cooking. SignatureJuhana > Only if you eat the vegetables raw. Lysine is damaged during heating. At what temperature is the lysine damaged? SignatureRon >At what temperature is the lysine damaged? At about 70-80 deg C if I remember correctly. Most problem are with baby food. :: At what temperature is the lysine damaged? : : At about 70-80 deg C if I remember correctly. Most problem are with : baby food. Studies say that lysine is somewhat degraded by heat, not destroyed completely. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 729465&dopt=Abstract SignatureJuhana >Studies say that lysine is somewhat degraded by heat, not destroyed >completely. Depends on how much sugar (primary free glucose or free fructose) there are around to react with the NH3 group on the side chain forming adducts. (glycation products) It is only the keto-form of reducing sugars that may damage the lysine and other amino acids with a NH3 group in the side chain. (The reaction also occure at body temperature and is responsible for lot of damages in body when glucose concentration goes up. Fructose is estimated to be about 10 times more effective :-( There might also be other degradation processes around with lysine, but the aboce mentioned mechanism is the one I know best. (PS. Free taurine prevent the side group from reacting) >Jim, thanks for posting the data and your comment. They could have been more >explicit but I guess your interpretation is correct. Still the results >suggest that it is healthier to choose sources of protein which are low in >methionine. But to make it even more complicated, the healthiness of protein >intake depends on the quality of carbs and fats, too. ;-) But, if so, cysteine should exchange the methionine. To cut down both sulphur amino acids are not a good idea because it will affect GSH status dramatically. And in turn both anti-oxidative defense and different systems in the immunological system may fail. (Eg. the feedback mechanism of taurine chloramine reacting with IKappaB and then hinder breakdown of IKappaB which otherwise will release active NFKappaB and thus generate more myeloperoxidase ,and GSH based detoxifying of hypochlorite from myeloperoxidase) > High dietary methionine increases the risk of heart disease according to a > Finnish study. Meat is high in methionine, an amino acid. Well, there it is! The next break through made by Mad Max and TC 'The Complainer' will be that free range beef, or perhaps Buffalo, is low in methionine. :( Just thought that you guys might not want to wait, to hear it from Mad Max. > High dietary methionine increases the risk of heart disease according to a > Finnish study. Meat is high in methionine, an amino acid. Just wanted to remind everybody that Homocysteine levels should be collected under fasting conditions to minimize dietary methionine levels. Homocysteine levels after a standard methionine loading dose can also be undertaken. > High dietary methionine increases the risk of heart disease according to a > Finnish study. Meat is high in methionine, an amino acid. [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=16487911&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum Don't worry about serum homocysteine levels. Earlier in the week there was another report about 2 homocysteine research studies to be published in NEJM on March 16. http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20060312/hl_hsn/folicacidsupplementswontlowerheartat tackrisk An important conclusion that is *not* reported about these NEJM studies is that the latest scientific evidence shows homocysteine not to be a cause of cardiovascular disease; it can simply be a marker of it during a diet that does not include heavy vitamin B supplementation. Also, moderate coffee consumption (due to both caffeine and chlorogenic acid) can increase homocysteine level without causing cardiovascular disease. IOW, high homocysteine level can be an effect of either moderately high consumption of coffee, and/or red meat. Or it could be an effect of cardiovascular disease, but not the cause of that. Moreover, when supplementing with heavy doses of B vitamins, that effect disappears. Until the studies that I've cited above, it had been presumed that high homocysteine translated to increased cardiovascular risk, but now that idea has been dispelled. "Knack" <zymatik@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message > Don't worry about serum homocysteine levels. Homocysteine is an independent risk factor along with CRP. Just because one can reduce these markers does not mean they can not be used in risk assessment. > An important conclusion that is *not* reported about these NEJM studies is > that the latest scientific evidence shows homocysteine not to be a cause of > cardiovascular disease; Cause and risk factor are two different things. Risk factors are cumulative. The more you have the greater the chance. >it can simply be a marker of it during a diet that > does not include heavy vitamin B supplementation. That appears to be the case. Heavy B vitamins are not really recommended Also, moderate coffee > consumption (due to both caffeine and chlorogenic acid) can increase > homocysteine level without causing cardiovascular disease. No reference for that? > IOW, high homocysteine level can be an effect of either moderately high > consumption of coffee, and/or red meat. There are genetic variants of inborn errors of metabolism that can elevate Homocysteine including homocysteinuria and homocysteinemia. There is folate and B12 deficiency that can elevate homocysteine. Only methylmalonate is increased in B12 and not in folate deficiency. There's a few of other conditions including oral contraceptives, smoking and hypothyroidism and renal failure. Samples collected in serum can elevate values and it should be repeated using whole blood plasma samples if high. Or it could be an effect of > cardiovascular disease, but not the cause of that. Moreover, when > supplementing with heavy doses of B vitamins, that effect disappears. Until > the studies that I've cited above, it had been presumed that high > homocysteine translated to increased cardiovascular risk, but now that idea > has been dispelled. I don't see that interpretation. High homocysteine is a marker and not a cause of increased cardiovascular disease. If an association is established by previous studies these new studies do not dispell them. The reference range for homocysteine is established like any other reference or normal range for a test. You get normal people, and that would include coffee drinkers and those taking vitamins and get an average. Calculate 2 and 3 standard deviations and set the reference interval. You then get sick people and look at their values. Clinical cut-off values are values which differentiate between disease and non-disease or minimal risk, moderate risk and high risk. > High dietary methionine increases the risk of heart disease according to a > Finnish study. Meat is high in methionine, an amino acid. [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=16487911&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum Very, very weak. I'll continue to consume meat to my heart's content. >> High dietary methionine increases the risk of heart disease according to >> a [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > Very, very weak. I'll continue to consume meat to my heart's content. Good. I'm nominating you for a Darwin Award. >>> High dietary methionine increases the risk of heart disease according to >>> a [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > Good. I'm nominating you for a Darwin Award. Fine. I'll put my health up against your malnourished self any day. |
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