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Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / October 2005

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15 tricks pharma companies use to get the right results

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eml - 21 Oct 2005 21:07 GMT
I wholeheartedly believe in clinical trials to further progress in
medical practice--I abhor the manipulation of statistics, data
reporting or lack of, etc.  the following is a guide in how to cheat in
clinical trials with examples from current studies:

There's an excellent article in this month's Internal Medicine journal
by Dr Ian Scott, of the Princess Alexandra Hospital in Brisbane. He
describes the top 15 tricks used to skew the findings or interpretation
of clinical trials. He cites them as examples to watch out for, but his
list could also be used as a cheat's manual for any drug company
clinical trial designer. the following is the listing:
1. Generalise your findings from an unrepresentative group.

Example: The RALES trial showed spironolactone helped in heart failure
- but practice showed that this wasn't the case for anyone with renal
failure or mild LV dysfucntion [who were not included in the trial].

2. Find a dodgy comparator.

Example: Compare high dose Lipitor with less potent doses of
Pravastatin, as in the recent TNT study.

3. Use a surrogate end point, not a clinically important one.

Example: If you have an expensive anti-Alzheimer's drug, show it makes
some differences to cognitive function and then claim this will result
in less need for institutionalisation, reduced disability, fewer deaths
or adverse events, lower carer burden and decreased health-care costs.
A recent trial of donepezil shows it doesn't.

4. Always emphasise the relative rather than absolute benefits.

Example: Treating patients with moderate to severe hypertension will
prevent more strokes (ARR = 8%; NNT = 12) than treating mild
hypertension (ARR = 0.6%; NNT = 166), even though the relative risk
reduction for antihypertensives is identical (40%) for both groups.

5. Emphasise statistical significance and play down effect size.

Example: An Australian trial in 6000 patients found that ACE inhibitors
were beter than diuretics in elderly hypertensive patients. The much
more powerful ALLHAT trial didn't.

6. Dig deep - there's always good news in subgroup analyses.

Example: Pfizer's Praise trial of amlodipine found a highly significant
survival benefit in a non-ischaemic paient subgroup. Not seen in
subsequent studies.

7. De-emphasise harmful effects - or even better, don't measure them at
all.

Example: Vioxx and cardiovascular risk - why did it take four years to
show this? So much for post marketing surveillance.

8. Composite end points can show anything if you try.

Example: The UKPDS trial of intensive glycemic control found a
significant benefit on "first diabetes-related events" but this was
made up of 21 end points. Most of this effect comprised reduction in
retinal photocoagulation, with no changes in diabetes-related deaths
and all-cause mortality.

9. Clinician-initiated end points can mean anything.

Example: Endpoints like revascularisation procedures and initiation of
dialysis are arbitrary, proxy endpoints that may vary with the
environment and may not reflect the natural history of the disease.

10. Secondary endpoints may save the day.

Example: The ELITE I trial of elderly patients with heart failure using
either losartan or captopril found no difference in renal function as
the primary end-point. An unexpected decrease was seen in the secondary
end-point of all-cause mortality favouring losartan, not confirmed by
subsequent trials.

11. Conflated trials: aggregate the data, confuse the punters.

Example: the PROGRESS study was in effect two trials, with patients in
one arm randomised, according to clinician preference, to perindopril
plus indapamide or perindopril alone. The separate results for each
trial showed perindopril alone had no outcome effect, a result
de-emphasised in several interpretations of PROGRESS results
recommending perindopril be initiated post-stroke.

12. It's a class effect!

Example: Class effcts of ACE inhibitors in patients with stable
cardiovascular disease and preserved left ventricular function? Not
according to mixed results from HOPE, EUROPA, and PEACE studies.

13. Do an equivalence trial with fuzzy margins

Example: The INJECT trial of thrombolytics.

14. Sponsored trials have sunny summaries.

Example: "The inconsistencies in data analysis and reporting suggests
to us a biased attempt to present ESSENCE in a positive light. Four of
7 authors and 4 of 7 members of the trial executive committee were, or
had previously been, drug company employees; the trial executive
chairman and the lead author both received company research grants; and
the company's research and development centre undertook data
co-ordination."

15. Negative trials never see daylight.

Examples: Glaxosmithkline's latest Serevent data on paradoxical
bronchoconstriction. A prospective follow up of 126 trials submitted to
the ethics committee of a major Sydney tertiary hospital, those with
significantly positive results were more likely to be published (85 vs
65% over 10 years), and be published earlier (median time to
publication 4.8 years vs 8.0 years) than trials showing nil effect.
listener - 21 Oct 2005 21:25 GMT
"eml" <mmlevy46@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1129925246.449902.291030
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

I suggest you create a sci.med.pharma newsgroup and post this kind of stuff
there. Then you and Sharon and zee can bash pharma to your heart's delight
(no pun intended) It's off-topic here.

L.
Susan - 21 Oct 2005 21:40 GMT
> "eml" <mmlevy46@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1129925246.449902.291030
> @g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> L.

Fortunately for the rest of us, you aren't our moderator.

It was certainly on topic.

Somebody wake me if listener ever posts anything that's not just a slap
at someone else.

Susan
Robert - 21 Oct 2005 21:52 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Somebody wake me if listener ever posts anything that's not just a slap
> at someone else.

Well let's see here. As I recall you had a good slap at the manufacturers at
lyme disease serology reagents as money making worthless profiteers. The
entire CDC is wrong with it's criteria of WB serology. You and your friend
immunologist is right.
Scared the sh.t out of somebody with diabetes and your views on how to
diagnose it and how the criteria is wrong.

Hmmmm, see a trend there?

> Susan
Susan - 21 Oct 2005 22:12 GMT
> Well let's see here. As I recall you had a good slap at the manufacturers at
> lyme disease serology reagents as money making worthless profiteers. The
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Hmmmm, see a trend there?

Just that when I read your posts, I never know what you're talking
about.  Then I realize you don't, either.

Susan
Robert - 21 Oct 2005 22:16 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Susan

Let me help you out here. Take a slap at healthcare professionals and they
slap back.
Susan - 21 Oct 2005 22:27 GMT
> Let me help you out here. Take a slap at healthcare professionals and they
> slap back.

Let me help you; reasonable folks can have differing opinions about the
science, the marketing, the clinicians.  A top CDC researcher, now at a
major academic research center is reduced to being "[my] friend" because
you don't understand on zillionth of what he dose about immunology.
You're the one taking slaps; I merely discussed the shortcomings that
are well documented in the peer reviewed science.

None of it is about *you* or your alleged professionalism.

Get over yourself.

Susan
Robert - 21 Oct 2005 22:55 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Susan

Let me help you out here. The CDC is comprised of "professionals" and they
have recommendations based on consensus.  These are positional papers that
people can use as standards based on data.
Your friend can use any criteria he wants when he sets up his lab.
Others will follow accepted referenced criteria such as the CDC.
You took a slap at the CDC and the labs that use CDC recommendations.
No surprise there.
Chris Malcolm - 24 Oct 2005 10:06 GMT
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>>
>> Susan

> Let me help you out here. The CDC is comprised of "professionals" and they
> have recommendations based on consensus.  These are positional papers that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> You took a slap at the CDC and the labs that use CDC recommendations.
> No surprise there.

I think you're confused about consensus reports. They're produced when
research has produced contradictory and confusing results and busy
medical professionals who don't have the time to do their own
literature reviews and come to their own conclusions don't know what
to think. So a consensus report is set up to advise them. It's produced
*because* there are widely differing views in the research community.

This is easily seen if you study the background behind a consensus
report, which is often available in the form of the proceedings of a
conference called by the consensus review committee.

This is a sci.med newsgroup. The diagnostic criteria for diabetes, the
so-called metabolic syndrome, pre-diabetes, etc. are a notoriously
difficult area with confusing and contradictory research and experts
who hold widely different opinions. It is perfectly proper and
respectable for someone to disagree with the views of the consensus
reports. It is perfectly respectable and proper to discuss the
divergent opinions and research behind any consensus report.

If you claim the people who express disagreements with consensus
reports must be misguided you misunderstand the nature of consensus
reports and sci.med newsgroups.

Signature

Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Susan - 24 Oct 2005 15:11 GMT
> If you claim the people who express disagreements with consensus
> reports must be misguided you misunderstand the nature of consensus
> reports and sci.med newsgroups.

  Some folks operate on a "need to believe" basis instead of an
interest in scientific inquiry.  Robert appears to me to be one of those.

Susan
Robert - 24 Oct 2005 19:05 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Susan

What ever. I work on a need for policies and procedures that are referenced.
My work product of negative and positive is definitive based on criteria
that are referenced. You can believe anything you want. You are not subject
to federal and state regulations and nor is this NG. There is accepted
criteria and the problem you have is you are always against that criteria. I
am not surprised as you are not involved in healthcare and in seeing
patients. You can say anyone over a 90 glucose has diabetes or somebody has
lyme disease with minimal testing. You don't believe in false positives at
all. Your positions are extreme.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00038469.htm
Chris Malcolm - 25 Oct 2005 10:00 GMT
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>
>> Susan

> What ever. I work on a need for policies and procedures that are referenced.
> My work product of negative and positive is definitive based on criteria
> that are referenced.

That's fine, but if you think this newsgroup is meant to backup the
standard diagnostic guidelines, treatment procedures, consensus
reports, etc., then you're seriously mistaken about the purpose of a
sci. newsgroup, or indeed about any newsgroup.

> You can believe anything you want. You are not subject
> to federal and state regulations and nor is this NG. There is accepted
> criteria and the problem you have is you are always against that criteria. I
> am not surprised as you are not involved in healthcare and in seeing
> patients.

This newsgroup is *not* a doctor's consulting room. You seem to be
suggesting that people who disagree with the published standards
should keep their voices down in case they alarm or confuse any
medical patients who might be listening.

A sci.med newsgroup is not for the benefit of patients or healthcare
professionals.

> You can say anyone over a 90 glucose has diabetes or somebody has
> lyme disease with minimal testing. You don't believe in false positives at
> all. Your positions are extreme.

Nothing wrong with extreme views. In fact if they can be backed up by
argument and research studies, as seeme to be the case with Susan's
views, then they should be encouraged in a scientific discussion
forum.

Signature

Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Robert - 25 Oct 2005 18:54 GMT
> >> x-no-archive: yes
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> reports, etc., then you're seriously mistaken about the purpose of a
> sci. newsgroup, or indeed about any newsgroup.

This newgroup is to explain diagnostic work-ups used by conventional
medicine and the rationale. It is used in explaining the purpose of why
professionals do what they are doing.
That is the whole intent of this NG.

CHARTER sci.med.cardiology (adopted 1995)

The purpose of this newsgroup is to establish electronic media for
communication between health care providers, scientists and other
individuals with interest in the cardiovascular field.  Such
communications will provide quick and efficacious means to exchange
information and knowledge, and offer solutions to problems.

The sci.med.cardiology newsgroup will welcome participants who are health
care providers, trainees, researchers, students or recipients with interest
in the field of cardiovascular problems.

RATIONALE

According the American College of Cardiology there are 22,000
members of the American College of Cardiology.  A similar
number exists in Europe according to the European Society of
Cardiology.  There are also a significant number of non-clinical
scientists involved in cardiovascular research at molecular and
epidemiological levels and other allied health care professionals
(nurses, physiotherapists, technicians, research assistants etc.)
involved with various aspects of cardiovascular health.  Most of
the scientists and physicians are affiliated with Universities and
Medical Centers with Internet access.  Currently there does not
exist any newsgroup which deals with cardiovascular medicine and science.

ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/sci/sci.med.cardiology

> > You can believe anything you want. You are not subject
> > to federal and state regulations and nor is this NG. There is accepted
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> should keep their voices down in case they alarm or confuse any
> medical patients who might be listening.

If their is citations or references then they should be used and handed to
the doctor. The rest is fluff. People can voice all the opinions they want
to but without citations then it is worthless to the doctor. If you want to
watch House,MD and then post stuff from that here that's fine also.

> A sci.med newsgroup is not for the benefit of patients or healthcare
> professionals.

Read the charter again.

> > You can say anyone over a 90 glucose has diabetes or somebody has
> > lyme disease with minimal testing. You don't believe in false positives at
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> views, then they should be encouraged in a scientific discussion
> forum.

Again citations speak louder than words. Nobody needs to hear me or Sharon.
I would rather read citations and more importantly the doctor needs
citations.
To imply a doctor doesn't know how to treat diabetes or doesn't have a clue
to diabetes then I would see another doctor.
The rest is fluff.
Susan - 25 Oct 2005 19:01 GMT
> This newgroup is to explain diagnostic work-ups used by conventional
> medicine and the rationale. It is used in explaining the purpose of why
> professionals do what they are doing.
> That is the whole intent of this NG.

The charter you posted is in direct contradiction of your extrapolation.

> CHARTER sci.med.cardiology (adopted 1995)
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> communications will provide quick and efficacious means to exchange
> information and knowledge, and offer solutions to problems.

Susan
Robert - 25 Oct 2005 19:32 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> The charter you posted is in direct contradiction of your extrapolation.

"The sci.med.cardiology newsgroups will welcome participants
who are health care providers, researchers, students or recipients
with interest in the field of cardiovascular problems."

The recipients are patients or others seeking information.

"Such communications will provide quick and efficacious means to exchange
information and knowledge, and offer solutions to problems."

Most of the time the problem is the patients not understanding the doctors
actions or inactions. Those are discussed.

Some times the person hasn't seen a doctor in which case it should be
pointed out that he should. Anything else is pure guess work and
meaningless.

The medical NG's have been turned around backwards with the lunatics running
the assilum.
Susan - 25 Oct 2005 19:46 GMT
> "The sci.med.cardiology newsgroups will welcome participants
> who are health care providers, researchers, students or recipients
> with interest in the field of cardiovascular problems."
>
> The recipients are patients or others seeking information.

Those who are recipients of health care services are not limited to
*receiving* information.  You've made that decision, and behave
condescendingly toward other participants as a result, whether or not
said participants are as or more informed than you are.

> "Such communications will provide quick and efficacious means to exchange
> information and knowledge, and offer solutions to problems."

That door swings *both* ways.  You've made the erroneous assumption that
those of us who are not currently health service providers are
restricted to learning from *you*.

> Most of the time the problem is the patients not understanding the doctors
> actions or inactions. Those are discussed.

That's not my observation, but I'm not surprised it's yours.

> Some times the person hasn't seen a doctor in which case it should be
> pointed out that he should. Anything else is pure guess work and
> meaningless.

To those not conversant with a wide enough sampling of the available
literature.  Though I agree that no one here should be offering
prescriptive advice, just information and sources of such.

> The medical NG's have been turned around backwards with the lunatics running
> the assilum.

My irony meter is flying off the chart here.

The "lunatics" rarely self identify.

Susan
Robert - 25 Oct 2005 20:53 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Those who are recipients of health care services are not limited to
> *receiving* information.
???

 You've made that decision, and behave
> condescendingly toward other participants as a result, whether or not
> said participants are as or more informed than you are.

More informed? I am not worried about who is more informed as much as where
the references are. One who is well informed by obtaining information should
share that information directly with references. The well informed person
can be a conduit to that information. Nobody cares about what I say but
rather the information that I provide that is referenced. Most of the time
one has to say nothing and only provide a link. That is my preference.
What I think is not important as much as what your doctor thinks.
If anything you are condescending towards doctors by implying you know more
than they do. Again, if you have the information provide it to the OP and
let him present it to the doctor. I know very well you are not happy with
that as you feel doctors are not doing what you want them to do. You are
unhappy with a lot of things. I rarely see you provide anything in favor of
the doctors interpretation to OP's. Most OP's are not happy with doctors in
general which is why they post here in the first place.
They should get second opinions or find another doctor.
The bottom line is they have to work their doctors and not with you or me so
I don't know where you get this "who knows more" stuff.

> > "Such communications will provide quick and efficacious means to exchange
> > information and knowledge, and offer solutions to problems."
>
> That door swings *both* ways.  You've made the erroneous assumption that
> those of us who are not currently health service providers are
> restricted to learning from *you*.

I never said that. Are you a researcher? Give me the information from the
researcher, or the originator of the info and thank you for that. I prefer
the original information.
You never did reference the criteria by that researcher that left the CDC. I
would like to see his research paper stating his criteria for revising the
WB on Lyme's disease.

As I stated most of the time there is a slap on the face of the doctor or
other professional and they should be able to respond. It is the service
provider that should be able to respond and that is different from "only"
service provider.
Comment all you want but give medical references for your comments.

If you are talking about support group information in dealing with emotional
issues then that is another group.

> > Most of the time the problem is the patients not understanding the doctors
> > actions or inactions. Those are discussed.
>
> That's not my observation, but I'm not surprised it's yours.

For the OP that is pretty much common but for others with a long posting
history then yes that is a different story.

> > Some times the person hasn't seen a doctor in which case it should be
> > pointed out that he should. Anything else is pure guess work and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> literature.  Though I agree that no one here should be offering
> prescriptive advice, just information and sources of such.

The person should see a doctor and everything else is conjecture.

> > The medical NG's have been turned around backwards with the lunatics running
> > the assilum.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Susan

SMC is borderline on that. Sci.med is a wasteland and scimed.nutrition is
pretty much what can happen to a NG that gets out of control.
I was in Sci.med.pathology a very long ago. It has been trashed to the point
that most professionals there are embarrassed to even post there.
Susan - 25 Oct 2005 21:17 GMT
> More informed? I am not worried about who is more informed as much as where
> the references are. One who is well informed by obtaining information should
> share that information directly with references.

As many of us have.

 The well informed person
> can be a conduit to that information. Nobody cares about what I say but
> rather the information that I provide that is referenced. Most of the time
> one has to say nothing and only provide a link. That is my preference.
> What I think is not important as much as what your doctor thinks.

Not surprisingly, I have a very smart doc who is not only my PCP, but is
board certified in inf. diseases, and spent considerable time in
academic medicine.  He agrees completely with what I've discussed wrt to
tbd testing.

> If anything you are condescending towards doctors by implying you know more
> than they do.

Actually, my doc finds it very refreshing, but does note that most docs
might feel threatened because *he* says I know more about *my particular
health conditions* than most docs ever will.  I don't condescend to docs
who are dumb, I just stay clear of them.  I don't care if there's stuff
my doc doesn't know, I just hate docs who say they do when they don't.
Or lab techs.

Again, if you have the information provide it to the OP and
> let him present it to the doctor.

This is what I always do.  Provide info, experiences, and a
recommendation to find a competent doc to discuss it with.  But
forearmed with information so not to rely on what the doc may or may not
know about the individual's particular problem.  We are each
responsible, ultimately, for our own health care.

I never told the OP, frex, what he had.  I explained how it should be
considered, and how the tests might not be definitive.

 I know very well you are not happy with
> that as you feel doctors are not doing what you want them to do.

You don't know jack about me and my relationships with doctors.
Frankly, they get overwhelmed by complicated cases, and are grateful
that I'm not totally dependent upon them for answers, and that I have
initiative.  The key is mutual respect, and we have it.

 You are
> unhappy with a lot of things.

I'm a happy person, actually.  As usual, you confuse your beliefs with
facts.  You do that a lot.

 I rarely see you provide anything in favor of
> the doctors interpretation to OP's.

Why would I comment about the care a person is getting if it sounds like
the doc is on the ball?  That's better left alone, no?

 Most OP's are not happy with doctors in
> general which is why they post here in the first place.

I don't think so.  I think folks are wise to seek information about
their conditions, and commonality of experience from others who've
experienced the same, or are familiar with it.  No one should substitute
anything they read on usenet for consultation with a competent health
professional.

> They should get second opinions or find another doctor.

Damned right.

> The bottom line is they have to work their doctors and not with you or me so
> I don't know where you get this "who knows more" stuff.

I responded to your post about the charter, and your high handed and
inaccurate interpretation of what it meant.

>>>"Such communications will provide quick and efficacious means to
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I never said that. Are you a researcher?

Yes, you did.  In your introduction to the charter.  That's the
inference.  Only thing missing was a stone tablet reference.

I am a lay researcher.  I used to manage the health care, psych and
medical for hundreds of people.

 Give me the information from the
> researcher, or the originator of the info and thank you for that. I prefer
> the original information.

It's very rare that I post without citation, unless the facts are well
accepted and easily accessed by anyone.

> You never did reference the criteria by that researcher that left the CDC. I
> would like to see his research paper stating his criteria for revising the
> WB on Lyme's disease.

Revising?  He didn't discuss revision.

> As I stated most of the time there is a slap on the face of the doctor or
> other professional and they should be able to respond. It is the service
> provider that should be able to respond and that is different from "only"
> service provider.
> Comment all you want but give medical references for your comments.

I can't figure out what you were attempting to communicate above. Nor
who you're addressing, since I typically do provide a wealth of
citations.  Except, as I noted, where the information is so widely
accepted as a given in the scientific community, as in the lack of
diagnostic standards in Lyme testing.

> If you are talking about support group information in dealing with emotional
> issues then that is another group.

I was addressing the science, and you were addressing your personal
beliefs and cookbook procedures.

> SMC is borderline on that. Sci.med is a wasteland and scimed.nutrition is
> pretty much what can happen to a NG that gets out of control.
> I was in Sci.med.pathology a very long ago. It has been trashed to the point
> that most professionals there are embarrassed to even post there.

I bet Uthman still posts; he's shameless.  :-)

Susan
Robert - 26 Oct 2005 08:40 GMT
> > If anything you are condescending towards doctors by implying you know more
> > than they do.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> health conditions* than most docs ever will.  I don't condescend to docs
> who are dumb, I just stay clear of them.

Doctors are not dumb and condescending posture noted. If you ever tried to
get into med school you would know that. I haven't always agreed with all
doctors concerning a variety of matters but dumb is really not a trait they
have.

 I don't care if there's stuff
> my doc doesn't know, I just hate docs who say they do when they don't.
> Or lab techs.

I am board certified as a Medical Technologist and state licensed as a
Clinical Lab Scientist. BS in Microbiology with general rotation in clinical
chemistry, hematology, immunohematoloy, serology, and microbiology.
Continuing medical education mandatory 12 hours per year.
Those are my qualifications along with working 30 years in laboratory
medicine. I post in several NG's as laboratory medicine is pretty universal
among the subspecialities or disease groups. I am required to answer all
calls from doctors and nurses pertaining to laboratory medicine as the NG's
are no different.

There are several different types of lab techs much as the difference in
calling a nurses aid a nurse and an RN a nurse or LVN a nurse.
Get the name right.

Laboratory professionals are not direct care givers as doctors and nurses
are. We don't have to put up with people. We let doctors deal with people
like you as it should be. We provide services to the health care providers
and patients indirectly as we never come in contact with patients.

> I am a lay researcher.  I used to manage the health care, psych and
> medical for hundreds of people.

And your qualifications in doing that are?
Anything medical at all? Your degree is in what?
If you are in Canada then that would make you a perfect candidate for health
minister.

> > As I stated most of the time there is a slap on the face of the doctor or
> > other professional and they should be able to respond. It is the service
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I can't figure out what you were attempting to communicate above.

I never said that these NG's are limited to professionals only. They do have
a right to defend themselves. the charter mentions specific classes or
groups of people that were being encourged to participate. Those people are
getting more rarer.
You get these people with self appointed experts on one topic running
everybody out.

Nor
> who you're addressing, since I typically do provide a wealth of
> citations.  Except, as I noted, where the information is so widely
> accepted as a given in the scientific community, as in the lack of
> diagnostic standards in Lyme testing.

The diagnostic criteria that may not be sensitive in all cases of lyme
disease. Criteria, yes, sensitivity no. That is not unusual. I haven't
really noticed most of your posts so if you do give citations then good for
you.

> I bet Uthman still posts; he's shameless.  :-)
>
> Susan

Goodluck

The name sounds familiar but believe it or not most names don't stick as get
you and Sharon confused. I respond mainly to issues.
Jim Chinnis - 27 Oct 2005 04:18 GMT
>> I am a lay researcher.  I used to manage the health care, psych and
>> medical for hundreds of people.

>And your qualifications in doing that are?
>Anything medical at all? Your degree is in what?

I have some background in neuroscience. One of my professors used to
say that the reason we had our heads stuffed with all those neurons was
that those of us in the past who had few neurons had faces with the
eyes, nose, and mouth sort of smushed together, there being nothing to
support the skull. Those poor people couldn't find mates and died out.

Susan's qualifications are that she clearly has lots of those neurons.
I hope you, Robert, realize that that makes her very ... attractive.

Jim
Robert - 27 Oct 2005 06:14 GMT
> >> I am a lay researcher.  I used to manage the health care, psych and
> >> medical for hundreds of people.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Jim

It wasn't a personal attack on her qualifications only a simple question
contrasting point.
A lab technician is a 2 year degree program.
My job requires a 4 year degree with course work in organic chemistry,
analytical chemistry, physics, pathogenic bacteriology, virology,
immunohematology and hematology as mandatory. One then has to intern for one
year after graduation with hands on training on stipend as a licensed
trainee. After that year one has to pass licensing exam or board
certification exams or both.
Once that is done that is where the real learning begins in dealing with
surgeons coming in and saying you killed his patient because their was a
delay in a blood transfusion crossmatch.
You also have a three strike rule in making mistakes and you are out fired.
If the mistake is severe enough your license can get pulled all together.
We have to declare any convictions felony or otherwise yearly to the state.
We are also required to take practical exams for competency involving every
test we perform by outside agencies. We are subjected to unannounced
inspections by regulatory agencies anytime they want.
Every test performed and every instrument used in the clinical laboratory
needs to have validation studies in-house after FDA approval studies are
submitted to the FDA for general use.
We can not deviate from the FDA approved methodology.
That was a problem in the Anthrax scare a few years back and is being
addressed by federal agencies in dealing with specimens not approved by the
FDA with environmental sources instead of biological ones.
Most people assume that my job is pretty much approached in the same manner
as any other job and it isn't.

No way in hell am I going to forge or falsify cholesterol results or do x,y
z just for the hell of it on testing. It doesn't work that way.
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 14:37 GMT
> Susan's qualifications are that she clearly has lots of those neurons.
> I hope you, Robert, realize that that makes her very ... attractive.

<*bluuuuush*>  Flatterer!!   Stop <don't stop>.  ;-)

Susan
Robert - 27 Oct 2005 20:07 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Susan

Not my intent to imply otherwise. We have our differences but Susan is
pretty fair fighter. I hope she and others disagree with me openly and often
to the benefit of all reading this stuff.
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 21:17 GMT
> Not my intent to imply otherwise. We have our differences but Susan is
> pretty fair fighter.
> I hope she and others disagree with me openly and often
> to the benefit of all reading this stuff.

You can pretty much count on it.

Susan
Chris Malcolm - 29 Oct 2005 13:24 GMT
>> >> x-no-archive: yes
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>> reports, etc., then you're seriously mistaken about the purpose of a
>> sci. newsgroup, or indeed about any newsgroup.

> This newgroup is to explain diagnostic work-ups used by conventional
> medicine and the rationale. It is used in explaining the purpose of why
> professionals do what they are doing.
> That is the whole intent of this NG.

> CHARTER sci.med.cardiology (adopted 1995)

> The purpose of this newsgroup is to establish electronic media for
> communication between health care providers, scientists and other
> individuals with interest in the cardiovascular field.  Such
> communications will provide quick and efficacious means to exchange
> information and knowledge, and offer solutions to problems.

> The sci.med.cardiology newsgroup will welcome participants who are health
> care providers, trainees, researchers, students or recipients with interest
> in the field of cardiovascular problems.

> RATIONALE

> According the American College of Cardiology there are 22,000
> members of the American College of Cardiology.  A similar
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Medical Centers with Internet access.  Currently there does not
> exist any newsgroup which deals with cardiovascular medicine and science.

> ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/sci/sci.med.cardiology

Which supports what I said and contradicts what you said. There's
clearly no point in pursuing this discussion further.

Signature

Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Robert - 24 Oct 2005 18:50 GMT
> >> x-no-archive: yes
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> reports must be misguided you misunderstand the nature of consensus
> reports and sci.med newsgroups.

I think you need to read my statements over again. I did not say that one
can not disagree with the CDC recommendations. I did say that their
integrity and intentions should not be impugned.
They always follow the next step by slaping pharm influence. Unless you have
read previous posts then you might be lost and I don't plan on going back.
My reference is to Lyme disease serology Elisa and WB procedures.
t
Chris Malcolm - 25 Oct 2005 10:04 GMT
>> >> x-no-archive: yes
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
>> reports must be misguided you misunderstand the nature of consensus
>> reports and sci.med newsgroups.

> I think you need to read my statements over again. I did not say that one
> can not disagree with the CDC recommendations. I did say that their
> integrity and intentions should not be impugned.

Why ever not? Isn't questioning the integrity and intentions of public
servants a good thing and one of the safeguards a democracy ought to
offer its citizens?

Signature

Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Robert - 25 Oct 2005 19:12 GMT
"Chris Malcolm" <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message

> > I think you need to read my statements over again. I did not say that one
> > can not disagree with the CDC recommendations. I did say that their
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> servants a good thing and one of the safeguards a democracy ought to
> offer its citizens?

There is no end and no answer to that. What is there to prevent a policman
from robbing a bank with his gun?

Let me make this point about the consensus panel. These are consensus panels
OF REGULATORY agencies.

The Association of State and Territorial Public Health Laboratory Directors,
CDC, the Food and Drug Administration, the National Institutes of Health,
the Council of State and Territorial Epidemiologists, and the National
Committee for Clinical Laboratory Standards.

They look at all the research and reach a consensus on standards they are
recommendations but here is the catch 22. You do not have to follow the
recommendations based on your own studies validating your procedures but if
they were good clear cut studies then why weren't they accepted as the
standard?
The researcher left the CDC in disagreement with the policy is  implication
by Sharon. His views were presented and not accepted.

Again the purpose of this NG is to present the hows and whys things are
done. Those are often distorted by posters here.
There is a distinction between doctors diagnostic criteria which are not
monitored by outside agencies and policies and procedures concerning the
laboratory diagnsosis  in which there is many oversight agencies of federal
and state along with blind testing of laboratories.
listener - 21 Oct 2005 22:03 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Susan

Oh, yes, sorry. I forgot to include you in the cabal. It was a suggestion
not a slap (and certainly not like the slaps that have come from those on
your side of the fence in the last few months).

What do the machinations of pharmaceutical companies have to do with this
newsgroup devoted to cardiology?

See my most recent post after this. It's on topic and not a slap.

BTW, I have no interest in moderating this or any other NG, but I can tell
you if it *were* a moderated NG you and zee and sharon would have been
kicked out a long time ago.

L.
Susan - 21 Oct 2005 22:17 GMT
> Oh, yes, sorry. I forgot to include you in the cabal.

I'm hardly in bed with Zee; I think she's nuts.

 It was a suggestion
> not a slap (and certainly not like the slaps that have come from those on
> your side of the fence in the last few months).

Really?  At whom, personally, as opposed to drug info, which appears to
be personal to you.  Or professional, more like it.

> What do the machinations of pharmaceutical companies have to do with this
> newsgroup devoted to cardiology?

Simple. Cardiology patients are a goldmine of worried and potentially
chronically ill long term drug users.  Some companies are marketing
products to the Worried Well, too, risky drugs they don't need.
Behavior of pharmaceutical companies is on topic in any such group.
Certainly, it's on topic in a group that frequently debates statins.

> See my most recent post after this. It's on topic and not a slap.

That would be really refreshing.

> BTW, I have no interest in moderating this or any other NG, but I can tell
> you if it *were* a moderated NG you and zee and sharon would have been
> kicked out a long time ago.

I participate in numerous moderated health groups; I've never had a post
rejected, nor have I ever been chastised by the moderators.  My
participation is not of the same character as Zee's or even Sharon's
(much of which I admire).  You and Robert waste most of your posts
commenting on the behavior of others; you'd be the ones tossed if this
group were moderated, for just that behavior.

Grow UP.

Susan
listener - 21 Oct 2005 22:33 GMT
> Simple. Cardiology patients are a goldmine of worried and potentially
> chronically ill long term drug users.  Some companies are marketing
> products to the Worried Well, too, risky drugs they don't need.
> Behavior of pharmaceutical companies is on topic in any such group.
> Certainly, it's on topic in a group that frequently debates statins.

I disagree completely. The marketing behavior of pharmaceutical companies
is not appropriate in a ng devoted to cardiology. It *is* appropriate in a
ng devoted to pharmaceutical companies.

> Grow UP.

Was that a slap?

L.
Susan - 21 Oct 2005 22:36 GMT
> I disagree completely. The marketing behavior of pharmaceutical companies
> is not appropriate in a ng devoted to cardiology. It *is* appropriate in a
> ng devoted to pharmaceutical companies.

We disagree.  I can live with that.  I certainly am not going to tell
people to leave and start another group to discuss it, that would be
very inappropriate.

>  
>
>>Grow UP.
>
> Was that a slap?

I guess it was, so I apologize to those who read it.

But it's not a bad suggestion.

Susan
listener - 21 Oct 2005 22:39 GMT
> I participate in numerous moderated health groups; I've never had a
> post rejected, nor have I ever been chastised by the moderators.  My
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Susan

I too belong to a number of moderated groups and have seen people
immediately booted when they come to bash big pharma (not that they don't
deserve it) or doctors.

But at least we both agree about zee.

L.
Robert - 21 Oct 2005 22:59 GMT
> > I participate in numerous moderated health groups; I've never had a
> > post rejected, nor have I ever been chastised by the moderators.  My
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> L.

We three
Susan - 22 Oct 2005 01:01 GMT
> I too belong to a number of moderated groups and have seen people
> immediately booted when they come to bash big pharma (not that they don't
> deserve it) or doctors.

I don't come for that express purpose, but I'm not going to leave their
misdeeds or misguidedness out of the equation.

> But at least we both agree about zee.

But only one of us posts mostly about her and little else.

Susan
William Wagner - 21 Oct 2005 22:46 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> > Oh, yes, sorry. I forgot to include you in the cabal.
>
> I'm hardly in bed with Zee; I think she's nuts.

Zee may be nut's .  She has her own way of understanding this here
world.  But she is not insane.  Big difference.

Big Difference.  Now If I want to analyze some one from afar I first
must claim the high ground.  Where is that?

Nuts by the way are High in Omega 3's.

Always on topic a bit.

Crazy Bill

Signature

Garden Shade Zone 5 S Jersey USA in a Japanese Jungle Manner.39.6376 -75.0208
This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.
Sam Adams-- "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds"

fresh~horses - 27 Oct 2005 18:52 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> > Oh, yes, sorry. I forgot to include you in the cabal.
>
> I'm hardly in bed with Zee; I think she's nuts.

That's very unkind and hardly fair Susan. I have freely stated here
from my first post three years ago that I have had statin brain injury.
I have worked hard to overcome the disability and continue to work in
spite of it, although not in my profession.

I do try to over come this loss caused by a toxic reaction to a drug
given me to prevent disease. For example, I work hard at being
supportive of my long-time friends and would not so someting to hurt
them, for example, betray their confidence.

>   It was a suggestion
> > not a slap (and certainly not like the slaps that have come from those on
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Susan
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 21:16 GMT
> That's very unkind and hardly fair Susan.

You are *very* frequently unkind, unfair and make horrible insinuations
about others based only upon your disagreement with what they say. The
rest of the time you're just irritating as heck, everywhere you pop up.

 I have freely stated here
> from my first post three years ago that I have had statin brain injury.
> I have worked hard to overcome the disability and continue to work in
> spite of it, although not in my profession.

Too freely, if you ask me.

I have longstanding brain injury and cognitive deficits from chronic
neuroborreliosis.  I've been disabled by physical and  brain stuff since
before you ever heard of statins.  I just don't wear it like a "Pity Me"
badge.

Susan
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 27 Oct 2005 21:26 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Susan

you cannot blame it on EVIL pharma Susan....

Zeester is a PITA
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 21:31 GMT
> you cannot blame it on EVIL pharma Susan....
>
> Zeester is a PITA

To some degree, I *could* blame my decades long missed dx on corruption
and ineptitude at NIH and CDC and unsavory linkages between health
insurers and academic medical consultants.  There're way more politics
than good science in the world of tick borne diseases in the U.S.

Folks like me, and at one time my child, get screwed by it all the time
by researchers and officials who say in public what none of them believe
in private.  Had to see/hear it to believe it.

I'm just not so enthusiastic about wearing a V on my sweater for Victim.

Susan <*at least *knows* she's fuc*ed in the head*>
William Wagner - 27 Oct 2005 22:43 GMT
> Susan <*at least *knows* she's fuc*ed in the head*>

Outside and inside not one not two.

Was feeling good the sun was bright
Stubbed my toe and I could not see  the previous  brightness

Thankfully after a nights rest
We can make these mistakes again

Maybe not

Bill

Signature

Garden Shade Zone 5 S Jersey USA in a Japanese Jungle Manner.39.6376 -75.0208
This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.
Sam Adams-- "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds"

Robert - 27 Oct 2005 22:49 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> and ineptitude at NIH and CDC and unsavory linkages between health
> insurers and academic medical consultants.
You can say that about the entire medical establishment and to have them
move in any one direction is like herding cats.
Sorry to say that is the norm and there are reasons for that with some not
so good and others a bit more altruistic.
I saw a conference on C-SPAN sponsored by NIH on Parkinson's disease.
The frustration of NIH was very evident. Let me just go over some points
that are universal with diseases being researched.
The first is that NIH is a funding center for research and usually primary
basic research and not applied or translational research into something that
can be used as most of the pharm companies are more than happy to do that
type of research.
Primary researchers like to do research only and ground-breaking stuff in
particular and don't want to do translational research into more applied
medical issues. NIH can't force them to do so although they want them dearly
to do so. They just don't get applications for funding for that type of
research. They would give it in a heartbeat.
The other issues is biomarkers. Some diseases don't have adequate biomarkers
to readily look at quick success or failure over a short time period in
order to see if it is successful or not.
It becomes very costly to do studies that take years to follow and chronic
disease is a real problem in terms of expense in studies.
Pharm companies don't want to invest in long expensive studies that would
require medication for long periods of time only to see another Vioxx. They
seek short profit making studies.
The orphan disease tax wright-off for drug companies is an insentive for
them to venture out in that direction and one suggestion was for a simliar
expantion to cover diseases of long duration and no biomarkers.
Pharm companies are staying out of PD drug development for the above
reasons. You have primary research that goes no where because the companies
don't want to take the next step.
Who can you blame?

 There're way more politics
> than good science in the world of tick borne diseases in the U.S.

Not as much as in Canada where it is pretty much all political.
More government insentives are better than government take over.
The CDC was the regulatory agency of all laboratories prior to CLIA 88
Clinical Laboratory Improvement Act.
That fell on the FDA after that date with the labs paying for their own
compliance in PT agencies like the CAP.
The biomarkers for Lyme disease are poor early on and anything after that is
also poor for chronic infections.

> Folks like me, and at one time my child, get screwed by it all the time
> by researchers and officials who say in public what none of them believe
> in private.  Had to see/hear it to believe it.

Guarded general public statements are the rule without knowing the
specifics. Not everybody is the same and most of the time and it happens to
all of us in which we make a statement and it terms out to be wrong.
I am always asked the question if it's possible to have a such and such of a
result for a laboratory test and I usually think of all the diseases and
scenarios and usually come up with yes.
The next thing I know the same person is saying that it was instrument error
and that I told her it was possible and it was my fault. The question is
then probable vs possible.
I have always been conservative about my answers to doctors, nurses and
everybody outside the lab but within the lab my answers are different.
Then you have personal choices not necessarily based on evidence but on best
guess.
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 23:08 GMT
> You can say that about the entire medical establishment and to have them
> move in any one direction is like herding cats.
> Sorry to say that is the norm and there are reasons for that with some not
> so good and others a bit more altruistic.

I'm talking about dishonesty and corruption, not ethical disagreement.
Are you now stating that dishonesty and corruption are the norm?

> I saw a conference on C-SPAN sponsored by NIH on Parkinson's disease.
> The frustration of NIH was very evident. Let me just go over some points
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> to do so. They just don't get applications for funding for that type of
> research. They would give it in a heartbeat.

NIH controls the money; they can make them do what they want via RFP.
Further, there is a lot of groundbreaking research involved in TBDs and
no shortage of apps, just a shortage of a process of reviewing, awarding
and conducting some studies with integrity.  And under the table deals
and limitations on what researchers are permitted to conclude in the
case of TBDs.

You don't appear to have any familiarity with the actual process, this
makes clear.

> The other issues is biomarkers. Some diseases don't have adequate biomarkers
> to readily look at quick success or failure over a short time period in
> order to see if it is successful or not.
> It becomes very costly to do studies that take years to follow and chronic
> disease is a real problem in terms of expense in studies.

I wasn't referring to chronic disease in my posts.

> Pharm companies don't want to invest in long expensive studies that would
> require medication for long periods of time only to see another Vioxx. They
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> don't want to take the next step.
> Who can you blame?

YOU.  I'm bored to death at this point.  Don't you ever edit yourself???
 :-)

>   There're way more politics
>
>>than good science in the world of tick borne diseases in the U.S.
>
> Not as much as in Canada where it is pretty much all political.

WTF does Canada have to do with this discussion?  I wasn't comparing
Canadian research to the U.S.

> More government insentives are better than government take over.

Wake me when this tangent is over...

> The CDC was the regulatory agency of all laboratories prior to CLIA 88
> Clinical Laboratory Improvement Act.
> That fell on the FDA after that date with the labs paying for their own
> compliance in PT agencies like the CAP.
> The biomarkers for Lyme disease are poor early on and anything after that is
> also poor for chronic infections.

Robert, let me just say that when it comes to the politics and history
of Lyme disease in the U.S. you are completely out of the loop.  I envy
you that, BTW.  I'd like to've never been in.

> Guarded general public statements are the rule without knowing the
> specifics. Not everybody is the same and most of the time and it happens to
> all of us in which we make a statement and it terms out to be wrong.

What are you TALKING ABOUT?  Are you a frustrated lecturer with no audience?

> I am always asked the question if it's possible to have a such and such of a
> result for a laboratory test and I usually think of all the diseases and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Then you have personal choices not necessarily based on evidence but on best
> guess.

Robert, all of this has been non-sequitir.  I find it exhausting to wade
through so much extraneous, OT stuff.

Susan
Robert - 27 Oct 2005 23:40 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I'm talking about dishonesty and corruption, not ethical disagreement.
> Are you now stating that dishonesty and corruption are the norm?

I am talking about legal ins and outs.
I don't agree with a lot of things I am told to do but as an employee I do
it within the context of the job. Is this dishonest in doing things in a way
you would not have done otherwise?
No, but somebody else might see it that way.
Corruption is the same thing as it has a legal meaning if it occurs within a
job context. Corrupt officials should be removed. The problem is those
accusing corruption are really accuring the entire institution of corruption
and on and on. Then the problem is they should do away with all the
institutions and what is left?
One hell of a lot more corruption of individuals rather than the
institutions.

> > I saw a conference on C-SPAN sponsored by NIH on Parkinson's disease.
> > The frustration of NIH was very evident. Let me just go over some points
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> and limitations on what researchers are permitted to conclude in the
> case of TBDs.

NIH grants research money for the research and you say that groundbreaking
research has been done already? I presume that was already based on NIH
grants.
The NIH does not do the research so conducting studies, limitations on what
researchers are permitted to conclude, doesn't really register within that
context.

> You don't appear to have any familiarity with the actual process, this
> makes clear.

Not with your interpretation of NIH grants in which there is corruption,
lack of integrity and NIH altering results. You are the expert on that.

> > The other issues is biomarkers. Some diseases don't have adequate biomarkers
> > to readily look at quick success or failure over a short time period in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I wasn't referring to chronic disease in my posts.

There's no biomarker that is always present in lyme disease and thus no way
to judge efficacy.

> > Pharm companies don't want to invest in long expensive studies that would
> > require medication for long periods of time only to see another Vioxx. They
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> YOU.  I'm bored to death at this point.  Don't you ever edit yourself???
>   :-)

No, you and Zee can edit my English aswell.

The bottom line is that you and Zee with her statin toxicity have a lot in
common. Many people having diseases in which there can be no biomarkers and
so many people have it and the NIH is corrupt etc.
The difference is that Zee wants to stop all pharmaceuticals and you want to
be on antibiotics for 10 years because of the purported infection.
People are not always so sure about everything as you guys are.
Memory loss, it's statins oh no what a minute i'ts lyme's disease.
It may be all of the above or none of the above. The researchers are having
trouble deciding and for you guys it's 100%.
If they can't decide it must be because of corruption.
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 23:53 GMT
> I am talking about legal ins and outs.
> I don't agree with a lot of things I am told to do but as an employee I do
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> One hell of a lot more corruption of individuals rather than the
> institutions.

I know the names of the individuals, and the corrupt acts.  I'm just not
stating them publicly on usenet.  I have facts at my disposal, not just
a temperament inclined to distrust institutions.

> NIH grants research money for the research and you say that groundbreaking
> research has been done already? I presume that was already based on NIH
> grants.
> The NIH does not do the research so conducting studies, limitations on what
> researchers are permitted to conclude, doesn't really register within that
> context.

Boy, do you have that wrong.  Right down to instructions to rewrite a
Lyme proposal and delete all references to the word "chronic" and
replace it with "post Lyme disease syndrome."  This is deciding what the
researcher is allowed to propose, study, and conclude, all at the RFP
stage.  There is also manipulation of the review process to skew it to
inferior proposals that toe a party line.

> Not with your interpretation of NIH grants in which there is corruption,
> lack of integrity and NIH altering results. You are the expert on that.

Only in the context of the study review and award process and study
conduct I've been witness to, or had firsthand accounts of from parties
to the process.  And from firsthand accounts of the researchers involved.

> There's no biomarker that is always present in lyme disease and thus no way
> to judge efficacy.

RIGHT.  So there's no such thing as a clinically meaningful diagnostic
test!!

> No, you and Zee can edit my English aswell.

It's not the English, Robert, it's the, well, the MASS.  :-)

> The bottom line is that you and Zee with her statin toxicity have a lot in
> common. Many people having diseases in which there can be no biomarkers and
> so many people have it and the NIH is corrupt etc.

Difference is that I'm not crazy, I'm not stupid, and I have firsthand
knowledge of what I've stated.  I make a distinction between what I
think and what I know for a fact or have witnessed.

> The difference is that Zee wants to stop all pharmaceuticals and you want to
> be on antibiotics for 10 years because of the purported infection.

This was a really stupid thing to say, and insulting.

> People are not always so sure about everything as you guys are.
> Memory loss, it's statins oh no what a minute i'ts lyme's disease.
> It may be all of the above or none of the above. The researchers are having
> trouble deciding and for you guys it's 100%.
> If they can't decide it must be because of corruption.

You don't seem to be addressing anything I've actually said.  You are
consistent here in operating on what you believe to be true without
having any actual, um, information or grasp of facts.

You seem to deal only in certainties, and in what you need to believe.
  I want folks to behave with integrity and to deal with the truth,
even if it challenges closely held beliefs.

Susan
Robert - 28 Oct 2005 03:55 GMT
> > There's no biomarker that is always present in lyme disease and thus no way
> > to judge efficacy.
>
> RIGHT.  So there's no such thing as a clinically meaningful diagnostic
> test!!

I didn't say that. I said there is no biomarker that is "always" present. I
did not say that there are no biomarkers present.
I did not say that tests are not meaningful.
That is solely your interpretation and no one else's.
Please show me a diagnostic workup that does not call for lyme serology
testing. We are off topic here so I will end this with the assumption that
you agree with everything I have said.
I don't believe in the Lyme Serology Mafia
Susan - 28 Oct 2005 13:13 GMT
>>>There's no biomarker that is always present in lyme disease and thus no
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> you agree with everything I have said.
> I don't believe in the Lyme Serology Mafia

You seem to operate on assumptions most of the time.

And you know what they say about assumption.

Susan
fresh~horses - 27 Oct 2005 22:52 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Susan <*at least *knows* she's fuc*ed in the head*>

I would holding official disability status when one obviously has
ability is a roaring flaming V.

I work for my living.
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 23:23 GMT
> I would holding official disability status when one obviously has
> ability is a roaring flaming V.

Ooh! Was this an attempt at landing blow to my self esteem?  That's not
very nice.  :-)  Sort of a junkyard dog vibe, hasn't it?

Fact is, you don't know anything about my current or prior health
status, what abilities or disabilities exist, nor whether they are
stable or progressive.  You don't know what the basis of my disability
claim is, how frequently it's reviewed medically and whether it's
considered total and/or permanent, etc.

In sum, as usual, you've spouted off, this time in an especially ugly,
virulent manner, without knowing jackshit.

Pathetic thing is that you are clueless as to what you reveal about
yourself with such behavior. Nothing is beneath you.  As if anyone
needed reminding.

> I work for my living.

I suppose there's a market for all sorts of garbage out there.

I feel very fortunate to have had insurance for the meager disability
income that I pay taxes on even if it just covers unreimbursed medical
expenses some years.  I'm even more grateful for a spouse who loves and
supports me in every way, including financially, no matter how ill I get.

Susan
fresh~horses - 27 Oct 2005 23:32 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Susan

I know all that you have posted about your disability.

I have no more time for you Susan.
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 23:42 GMT
> I know all that you have posted about your disability.

That may be so.  But I have never posted about most, certainly not the
worst, of my health problems and their effects on my life and
functioning.  That would be whiny and undignified. That would be like
you, ad nauseum.

As usual, you've attacked without the facts.  And, as usual, in an
unethical, backstabbing, gossipy manner.  No integrity to you at all.

> I have no more time for you Susan.

Ouch, bummer.

Susan
Robert - 27 Oct 2005 23:43 GMT
> > x-no-archive: yes
> >
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> I have no more time for you Susan.

Ok ladies as the moderator of this group let's knock all this sh.t off.

Let's talk about topics rather than cat fight stuff.
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 28 Oct 2005 00:56 GMT
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> I have no more time for you Susan.

course not Zee...off to skuttle back under your bush...as you always do when
someone "bests" you...

lol...pathetic
listener - 28 Oct 2005 03:58 GMT
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> I have no more time for you Susan.

The great Zee has Spoken! Susan, BEGONE!!

L.
fresh~horses - 27 Oct 2005 22:43 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> about others based only upon your disagreement with what they say. The
> rest of the time you're just irritating as heck, everywhere you pop up.

You can't count on one hand the posts I've made that are anything like
the unethical, gossipy and backstabbing behaviour you wallow in.

>   I have freely stated here
> > from my first post three years ago that I have had statin brain injury.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I have longstanding brain injury and cognitive deficits from chronic
> neuroborreliosis.

I'm very sorry for this; but also, very aware of it. One of the first
long threads I saw when I came here was you doing just what you accuse
me of.

I've been disabled by physical and  brain stuff since
> before you ever heard of statins.

I just don't wear it like a "Pity Me"
> badge.

I disagree.

> Susan
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 22:55 GMT
> You can't count on one hand the posts I've made that are anything like
> the unethical, gossipy and backstabbing behaviour you wallow in.

Yeah, that's projection, right there.  Narcissists always think everyone
else operates the way they do.  You just outed yourself; those are the
exact terms that perfectly describe your continual posting behavior.

> I'm very sorry for this; but also, very aware of it. One of the first
> long threads I saw when I came here was you doing just what you accuse
> me of.

Not a chance; never happened.  I never discuss my illness by using it as
a Pity Plea the way you do almost daily as a poor excuse for bad
behavior. My illness only comes up in context, and not very often.

> I disagree.

Yabbut, nobody gives a sh.t what you think, least of all me.

Susan
Robert - 27 Oct 2005 23:04 GMT
> > x-no-archive: yes
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> You can't count on one hand the posts I've made that are anything like
> the unethical, gossipy and backstabbing behaviour you wallow in.

I did find your post accusing me of murdering my mother with statins as
strange to say the least.
Any misdemeanor or felony convictions need to be reported to the state. The
state professional ethics code and regulations make it mandatory to do so.
Murder charges should be brought to the district attorneys office.

The UCSD study does mention psychiatric illness as something they are
studying on whether it is unmasked or primary disorders?
Any chronic illness will have at the very least a secondary psychological
impact and many neurological illnesses have primary mental disorders
attached.

I think people here are trying to tell you something. GET HELP.
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 23:25 GMT
>>>x-no-archive: yes
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> I think people here are trying to tell you something. GET HELP.

Nah, I'm not trying to tell her that.

Susan
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 28 Oct 2005 01:00 GMT
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> You can't count on one hand the posts I've made that are anything like
> the unethical, gossipy and backstabbing behaviour you wallow in.

actually we cannot count at ALL your posts Zeezter

as you so clevely erase them all...

Susan...like me...leaves posts out there...yep...someone like you can dig
out the ones where we may have LOST it to someone like you...

you on the other hand...wipe out your obnoxious posts...

that is..til I quote them in my reply...ha ha ha

>>   I have freely stated here
>> > from my first post three years ago that I have had statin brain injury.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>> Susan
Susan - 28 Oct 2005 01:44 GMT
> Susan...like me...leaves posts out there...yep...someone like you can dig
> out the ones where we may have LOST it to someone like you...

I non-archive.

Susan
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 28 Oct 2005 03:00 GMT
whoops...so you do...

still...Zee said we could "count on one hand"...when her posts are in the
ether...

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Susan
Chris Malcolm - 29 Oct 2005 13:46 GMT
> You can't count on one hand the posts I've made that are anything like
> the unethical, gossipy and backstabbing behaviour you wallow in.

A refreshingly accurate self-appraisal :-)

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Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Jason - 21 Oct 2005 22:17 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Susan

Susan,
Great post. I agree with you. Medical studies are important in relation
to sci.med.cardiology
Jason

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Sharon Hope - 24 Oct 2005 05:25 GMT
Planning on a long hibernation, are we?

> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Susan
Boron Elgar - 27 Oct 2005 13:08 GMT
>x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Fortunately for the rest of us, you aren't our moderator.

Wow...I see you like to use that phrase in all sorts of usenet groups.
Sounds like *you* like to act as moderator.

Boron
Robert - 27 Oct 2005 20:11 GMT
> >x-no-archive: yes
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Boron

Boron, I appreciate your input to this NG but to start off with a post like
this?
As moderator to this NG I will have to delete it and you will have to start
over.
William Wagner - 27 Oct 2005 20:41 GMT
> > >x-no-archive: yes
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> As moderator to this NG I will have to delete it and you will have to start
> over.

Makes sense to me.  I just thought Boron miss typed  by two keys to the
left.   Thanks Robert  moderator on high.   Whew  the asylum  may be
controlled by the inmates.  I assume a bad day for both of you.

Alas Robert here may not be the Robert  that is  about often and Boron
may be Robert.

Bill

Write a poem  fast and  think about it.

Off Topic wonders below

http://ourmedia.org/
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Robert - 21 Oct 2005 21:41 GMT
> "eml" <mmlevy46@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1129925246.449902.291030
> @g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> L.

It's not just pharm bashing but you also have to have collusion with all of
healthcare which means impugning the integrity of every healthcare
professional out there. It also means endless posts about the FDA and so
there is government collusion also. The list is endless as are their posts.
It is tragic that the vaccine industry has already taken a hit.
Maybe eml should write a letter to the pharm reps appealing for new drugs to
treat PD and she should include this post making sure that the company takes
20 years to develop a PD drug making sure it is 100% safe and 100% effective
in any and all diseases. Once this is done then independent trials can be
undertaken and in about 30 years you can see it on the counter.

The only NG for them is misc.alternate.healthcare.
William Wagner - 21 Oct 2005 22:15 GMT
> > "eml" <mmlevy46@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1129925246.449902.291030
> > @g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> The only NG for them is misc.alternate.healthcare.

 Interesting quote from I guess almost 30 years ago.

  I think the human interactions in Medicine has  been  co-opted  by
the costs or monies implied.  People are beds sort of speaks of the
loss.  Of course i