Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / October 2005
15 tricks pharma companies use to get the right results
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eml - 21 Oct 2005 21:07 GMT I wholeheartedly believe in clinical trials to further progress in medical practice--I abhor the manipulation of statistics, data reporting or lack of, etc. the following is a guide in how to cheat in clinical trials with examples from current studies:
There's an excellent article in this month's Internal Medicine journal by Dr Ian Scott, of the Princess Alexandra Hospital in Brisbane. He describes the top 15 tricks used to skew the findings or interpretation of clinical trials. He cites them as examples to watch out for, but his list could also be used as a cheat's manual for any drug company clinical trial designer. the following is the listing: 1. Generalise your findings from an unrepresentative group.
Example: The RALES trial showed spironolactone helped in heart failure - but practice showed that this wasn't the case for anyone with renal failure or mild LV dysfucntion [who were not included in the trial].
2. Find a dodgy comparator.
Example: Compare high dose Lipitor with less potent doses of Pravastatin, as in the recent TNT study.
3. Use a surrogate end point, not a clinically important one.
Example: If you have an expensive anti-Alzheimer's drug, show it makes some differences to cognitive function and then claim this will result in less need for institutionalisation, reduced disability, fewer deaths or adverse events, lower carer burden and decreased health-care costs. A recent trial of donepezil shows it doesn't.
4. Always emphasise the relative rather than absolute benefits.
Example: Treating patients with moderate to severe hypertension will prevent more strokes (ARR = 8%; NNT = 12) than treating mild hypertension (ARR = 0.6%; NNT = 166), even though the relative risk reduction for antihypertensives is identical (40%) for both groups.
5. Emphasise statistical significance and play down effect size.
Example: An Australian trial in 6000 patients found that ACE inhibitors were beter than diuretics in elderly hypertensive patients. The much more powerful ALLHAT trial didn't.
6. Dig deep - there's always good news in subgroup analyses.
Example: Pfizer's Praise trial of amlodipine found a highly significant survival benefit in a non-ischaemic paient subgroup. Not seen in subsequent studies.
7. De-emphasise harmful effects - or even better, don't measure them at all.
Example: Vioxx and cardiovascular risk - why did it take four years to show this? So much for post marketing surveillance.
8. Composite end points can show anything if you try.
Example: The UKPDS trial of intensive glycemic control found a significant benefit on "first diabetes-related events" but this was made up of 21 end points. Most of this effect comprised reduction in retinal photocoagulation, with no changes in diabetes-related deaths and all-cause mortality.
9. Clinician-initiated end points can mean anything.
Example: Endpoints like revascularisation procedures and initiation of dialysis are arbitrary, proxy endpoints that may vary with the environment and may not reflect the natural history of the disease.
10. Secondary endpoints may save the day.
Example: The ELITE I trial of elderly patients with heart failure using either losartan or captopril found no difference in renal function as the primary end-point. An unexpected decrease was seen in the secondary end-point of all-cause mortality favouring losartan, not confirmed by subsequent trials.
11. Conflated trials: aggregate the data, confuse the punters.
Example: the PROGRESS study was in effect two trials, with patients in one arm randomised, according to clinician preference, to perindopril plus indapamide or perindopril alone. The separate results for each trial showed perindopril alone had no outcome effect, a result de-emphasised in several interpretations of PROGRESS results recommending perindopril be initiated post-stroke.
12. It's a class effect!
Example: Class effcts of ACE inhibitors in patients with stable cardiovascular disease and preserved left ventricular function? Not according to mixed results from HOPE, EUROPA, and PEACE studies.
13. Do an equivalence trial with fuzzy margins
Example: The INJECT trial of thrombolytics.
14. Sponsored trials have sunny summaries.
Example: "The inconsistencies in data analysis and reporting suggests to us a biased attempt to present ESSENCE in a positive light. Four of 7 authors and 4 of 7 members of the trial executive committee were, or had previously been, drug company employees; the trial executive chairman and the lead author both received company research grants; and the company's research and development centre undertook data co-ordination."
15. Negative trials never see daylight.
Examples: Glaxosmithkline's latest Serevent data on paradoxical bronchoconstriction. A prospective follow up of 126 trials submitted to the ethics committee of a major Sydney tertiary hospital, those with significantly positive results were more likely to be published (85 vs 65% over 10 years), and be published earlier (median time to publication 4.8 years vs 8.0 years) than trials showing nil effect.
listener - 21 Oct 2005 21:25 GMT "eml" <mmlevy46@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1129925246.449902.291030 @g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
I suggest you create a sci.med.pharma newsgroup and post this kind of stuff there. Then you and Sharon and zee can bash pharma to your heart's delight (no pun intended) It's off-topic here.
L.
Susan - 21 Oct 2005 21:40 GMT > "eml" <mmlevy46@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1129925246.449902.291030 > @g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > L. Fortunately for the rest of us, you aren't our moderator.
It was certainly on topic.
Somebody wake me if listener ever posts anything that's not just a slap at someone else.
Susan
Robert - 21 Oct 2005 21:52 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Somebody wake me if listener ever posts anything that's not just a slap > at someone else. Well let's see here. As I recall you had a good slap at the manufacturers at lyme disease serology reagents as money making worthless profiteers. The entire CDC is wrong with it's criteria of WB serology. You and your friend immunologist is right. Scared the sh.t out of somebody with diabetes and your views on how to diagnose it and how the criteria is wrong.
Hmmmm, see a trend there?
> Susan Susan - 21 Oct 2005 22:12 GMT > Well let's see here. As I recall you had a good slap at the manufacturers at > lyme disease serology reagents as money making worthless profiteers. The [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Hmmmm, see a trend there? Just that when I read your posts, I never know what you're talking about. Then I realize you don't, either.
Susan
Robert - 21 Oct 2005 22:16 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Susan Let me help you out here. Take a slap at healthcare professionals and they slap back.
Susan - 21 Oct 2005 22:27 GMT > Let me help you out here. Take a slap at healthcare professionals and they > slap back. Let me help you; reasonable folks can have differing opinions about the science, the marketing, the clinicians. A top CDC researcher, now at a major academic research center is reduced to being "[my] friend" because you don't understand on zillionth of what he dose about immunology. You're the one taking slaps; I merely discussed the shortcomings that are well documented in the peer reviewed science.
None of it is about *you* or your alleged professionalism.
Get over yourself.
Susan
Robert - 21 Oct 2005 22:55 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Susan Let me help you out here. The CDC is comprised of "professionals" and they have recommendations based on consensus. These are positional papers that people can use as standards based on data. Your friend can use any criteria he wants when he sets up his lab. Others will follow accepted referenced criteria such as the CDC. You took a slap at the CDC and the labs that use CDC recommendations. No surprise there.
Chris Malcolm - 24 Oct 2005 10:06 GMT >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >> Susan
> Let me help you out here. The CDC is comprised of "professionals" and they > have recommendations based on consensus. These are positional papers that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You took a slap at the CDC and the labs that use CDC recommendations. > No surprise there. I think you're confused about consensus reports. They're produced when research has produced contradictory and confusing results and busy medical professionals who don't have the time to do their own literature reviews and come to their own conclusions don't know what to think. So a consensus report is set up to advise them. It's produced *because* there are widely differing views in the research community.
This is easily seen if you study the background behind a consensus report, which is often available in the form of the proceedings of a conference called by the consensus review committee.
This is a sci.med newsgroup. The diagnostic criteria for diabetes, the so-called metabolic syndrome, pre-diabetes, etc. are a notoriously difficult area with confusing and contradictory research and experts who hold widely different opinions. It is perfectly proper and respectable for someone to disagree with the views of the consensus reports. It is perfectly respectable and proper to discuss the divergent opinions and research behind any consensus report.
If you claim the people who express disagreements with consensus reports must be misguided you misunderstand the nature of consensus reports and sci.med newsgroups.
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Susan - 24 Oct 2005 15:11 GMT > If you claim the people who express disagreements with consensus > reports must be misguided you misunderstand the nature of consensus > reports and sci.med newsgroups. Some folks operate on a "need to believe" basis instead of an interest in scientific inquiry. Robert appears to me to be one of those.
Susan
Robert - 24 Oct 2005 19:05 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Susan What ever. I work on a need for policies and procedures that are referenced. My work product of negative and positive is definitive based on criteria that are referenced. You can believe anything you want. You are not subject to federal and state regulations and nor is this NG. There is accepted criteria and the problem you have is you are always against that criteria. I am not surprised as you are not involved in healthcare and in seeing patients. You can say anyone over a 90 glucose has diabetes or somebody has lyme disease with minimal testing. You don't believe in false positives at all. Your positions are extreme.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00038469.htm
Chris Malcolm - 25 Oct 2005 10:00 GMT >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> Susan
> What ever. I work on a need for policies and procedures that are referenced. > My work product of negative and positive is definitive based on criteria > that are referenced. That's fine, but if you think this newsgroup is meant to backup the standard diagnostic guidelines, treatment procedures, consensus reports, etc., then you're seriously mistaken about the purpose of a sci. newsgroup, or indeed about any newsgroup.
> You can believe anything you want. You are not subject > to federal and state regulations and nor is this NG. There is accepted > criteria and the problem you have is you are always against that criteria. I > am not surprised as you are not involved in healthcare and in seeing > patients. This newsgroup is *not* a doctor's consulting room. You seem to be suggesting that people who disagree with the published standards should keep their voices down in case they alarm or confuse any medical patients who might be listening.
A sci.med newsgroup is not for the benefit of patients or healthcare professionals.
> You can say anyone over a 90 glucose has diabetes or somebody has > lyme disease with minimal testing. You don't believe in false positives at > all. Your positions are extreme. Nothing wrong with extreme views. In fact if they can be backed up by argument and research studies, as seeme to be the case with Susan's views, then they should be encouraged in a scientific discussion forum.
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Robert - 25 Oct 2005 18:54 GMT > >> x-no-archive: yes > >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > reports, etc., then you're seriously mistaken about the purpose of a > sci. newsgroup, or indeed about any newsgroup. This newgroup is to explain diagnostic work-ups used by conventional medicine and the rationale. It is used in explaining the purpose of why professionals do what they are doing. That is the whole intent of this NG.
CHARTER sci.med.cardiology (adopted 1995)
The purpose of this newsgroup is to establish electronic media for communication between health care providers, scientists and other individuals with interest in the cardiovascular field. Such communications will provide quick and efficacious means to exchange information and knowledge, and offer solutions to problems.
The sci.med.cardiology newsgroup will welcome participants who are health care providers, trainees, researchers, students or recipients with interest in the field of cardiovascular problems.
RATIONALE
According the American College of Cardiology there are 22,000 members of the American College of Cardiology. A similar number exists in Europe according to the European Society of Cardiology. There are also a significant number of non-clinical scientists involved in cardiovascular research at molecular and epidemiological levels and other allied health care professionals (nurses, physiotherapists, technicians, research assistants etc.) involved with various aspects of cardiovascular health. Most of the scientists and physicians are affiliated with Universities and Medical Centers with Internet access. Currently there does not exist any newsgroup which deals with cardiovascular medicine and science.
ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/sci/sci.med.cardiology
> > You can believe anything you want. You are not subject > > to federal and state regulations and nor is this NG. There is accepted [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > should keep their voices down in case they alarm or confuse any > medical patients who might be listening. If their is citations or references then they should be used and handed to the doctor. The rest is fluff. People can voice all the opinions they want to but without citations then it is worthless to the doctor. If you want to watch House,MD and then post stuff from that here that's fine also.
> A sci.med newsgroup is not for the benefit of patients or healthcare > professionals. Read the charter again.
> > You can say anyone over a 90 glucose has diabetes or somebody has > > lyme disease with minimal testing. You don't believe in false positives at [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > views, then they should be encouraged in a scientific discussion > forum. Again citations speak louder than words. Nobody needs to hear me or Sharon. I would rather read citations and more importantly the doctor needs citations. To imply a doctor doesn't know how to treat diabetes or doesn't have a clue to diabetes then I would see another doctor. The rest is fluff.
Susan - 25 Oct 2005 19:01 GMT > This newgroup is to explain diagnostic work-ups used by conventional > medicine and the rationale. It is used in explaining the purpose of why > professionals do what they are doing. > That is the whole intent of this NG. The charter you posted is in direct contradiction of your extrapolation.
> CHARTER sci.med.cardiology (adopted 1995) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > communications will provide quick and efficacious means to exchange > information and knowledge, and offer solutions to problems. Susan
Robert - 25 Oct 2005 19:32 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > The charter you posted is in direct contradiction of your extrapolation. "The sci.med.cardiology newsgroups will welcome participants who are health care providers, researchers, students or recipients with interest in the field of cardiovascular problems."
The recipients are patients or others seeking information.
"Such communications will provide quick and efficacious means to exchange information and knowledge, and offer solutions to problems."
Most of the time the problem is the patients not understanding the doctors actions or inactions. Those are discussed.
Some times the person hasn't seen a doctor in which case it should be pointed out that he should. Anything else is pure guess work and meaningless.
The medical NG's have been turned around backwards with the lunatics running the assilum.
Susan - 25 Oct 2005 19:46 GMT > "The sci.med.cardiology newsgroups will welcome participants > who are health care providers, researchers, students or recipients > with interest in the field of cardiovascular problems." > > The recipients are patients or others seeking information. Those who are recipients of health care services are not limited to *receiving* information. You've made that decision, and behave condescendingly toward other participants as a result, whether or not said participants are as or more informed than you are.
> "Such communications will provide quick and efficacious means to exchange > information and knowledge, and offer solutions to problems." That door swings *both* ways. You've made the erroneous assumption that those of us who are not currently health service providers are restricted to learning from *you*.
> Most of the time the problem is the patients not understanding the doctors > actions or inactions. Those are discussed. That's not my observation, but I'm not surprised it's yours.
> Some times the person hasn't seen a doctor in which case it should be > pointed out that he should. Anything else is pure guess work and > meaningless. To those not conversant with a wide enough sampling of the available literature. Though I agree that no one here should be offering prescriptive advice, just information and sources of such.
> The medical NG's have been turned around backwards with the lunatics running > the assilum. My irony meter is flying off the chart here.
The "lunatics" rarely self identify.
Susan
Robert - 25 Oct 2005 20:53 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Those who are recipients of health care services are not limited to > *receiving* information. ???
You've made that decision, and behave
> condescendingly toward other participants as a result, whether or not > said participants are as or more informed than you are. More informed? I am not worried about who is more informed as much as where the references are. One who is well informed by obtaining information should share that information directly with references. The well informed person can be a conduit to that information. Nobody cares about what I say but rather the information that I provide that is referenced. Most of the time one has to say nothing and only provide a link. That is my preference. What I think is not important as much as what your doctor thinks. If anything you are condescending towards doctors by implying you know more than they do. Again, if you have the information provide it to the OP and let him present it to the doctor. I know very well you are not happy with that as you feel doctors are not doing what you want them to do. You are unhappy with a lot of things. I rarely see you provide anything in favor of the doctors interpretation to OP's. Most OP's are not happy with doctors in general which is why they post here in the first place. They should get second opinions or find another doctor. The bottom line is they have to work their doctors and not with you or me so I don't know where you get this "who knows more" stuff.
> > "Such communications will provide quick and efficacious means to exchange > > information and knowledge, and offer solutions to problems." > > That door swings *both* ways. You've made the erroneous assumption that > those of us who are not currently health service providers are > restricted to learning from *you*. I never said that. Are you a researcher? Give me the information from the researcher, or the originator of the info and thank you for that. I prefer the original information. You never did reference the criteria by that researcher that left the CDC. I would like to see his research paper stating his criteria for revising the WB on Lyme's disease.
As I stated most of the time there is a slap on the face of the doctor or other professional and they should be able to respond. It is the service provider that should be able to respond and that is different from "only" service provider. Comment all you want but give medical references for your comments.
If you are talking about support group information in dealing with emotional issues then that is another group.
> > Most of the time the problem is the patients not understanding the doctors > > actions or inactions. Those are discussed. > > That's not my observation, but I'm not surprised it's yours. For the OP that is pretty much common but for others with a long posting history then yes that is a different story.
> > Some times the person hasn't seen a doctor in which case it should be > > pointed out that he should. Anything else is pure guess work and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > literature. Though I agree that no one here should be offering > prescriptive advice, just information and sources of such. The person should see a doctor and everything else is conjecture.
> > The medical NG's have been turned around backwards with the lunatics running > > the assilum. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Susan SMC is borderline on that. Sci.med is a wasteland and scimed.nutrition is pretty much what can happen to a NG that gets out of control. I was in Sci.med.pathology a very long ago. It has been trashed to the point that most professionals there are embarrassed to even post there.
Susan - 25 Oct 2005 21:17 GMT > More informed? I am not worried about who is more informed as much as where > the references are. One who is well informed by obtaining information should > share that information directly with references. As many of us have.
The well informed person
> can be a conduit to that information. Nobody cares about what I say but > rather the information that I provide that is referenced. Most of the time > one has to say nothing and only provide a link. That is my preference. > What I think is not important as much as what your doctor thinks. Not surprisingly, I have a very smart doc who is not only my PCP, but is board certified in inf. diseases, and spent considerable time in academic medicine. He agrees completely with what I've discussed wrt to tbd testing.
> If anything you are condescending towards doctors by implying you know more > than they do. Actually, my doc finds it very refreshing, but does note that most docs might feel threatened because *he* says I know more about *my particular health conditions* than most docs ever will. I don't condescend to docs who are dumb, I just stay clear of them. I don't care if there's stuff my doc doesn't know, I just hate docs who say they do when they don't. Or lab techs.
Again, if you have the information provide it to the OP and
> let him present it to the doctor. This is what I always do. Provide info, experiences, and a recommendation to find a competent doc to discuss it with. But forearmed with information so not to rely on what the doc may or may not know about the individual's particular problem. We are each responsible, ultimately, for our own health care.
I never told the OP, frex, what he had. I explained how it should be considered, and how the tests might not be definitive.
I know very well you are not happy with
> that as you feel doctors are not doing what you want them to do. You don't know jack about me and my relationships with doctors. Frankly, they get overwhelmed by complicated cases, and are grateful that I'm not totally dependent upon them for answers, and that I have initiative. The key is mutual respect, and we have it.
You are
> unhappy with a lot of things. I'm a happy person, actually. As usual, you confuse your beliefs with facts. You do that a lot.
I rarely see you provide anything in favor of
> the doctors interpretation to OP's. Why would I comment about the care a person is getting if it sounds like the doc is on the ball? That's better left alone, no?
Most OP's are not happy with doctors in
> general which is why they post here in the first place. I don't think so. I think folks are wise to seek information about their conditions, and commonality of experience from others who've experienced the same, or are familiar with it. No one should substitute anything they read on usenet for consultation with a competent health professional.
> They should get second opinions or find another doctor. Damned right.
> The bottom line is they have to work their doctors and not with you or me so > I don't know where you get this "who knows more" stuff. I responded to your post about the charter, and your high handed and inaccurate interpretation of what it meant.
>>>"Such communications will provide quick and efficacious means to > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I never said that. Are you a researcher? Yes, you did. In your introduction to the charter. That's the inference. Only thing missing was a stone tablet reference.
I am a lay researcher. I used to manage the health care, psych and medical for hundreds of people.
Give me the information from the
> researcher, or the originator of the info and thank you for that. I prefer > the original information. It's very rare that I post without citation, unless the facts are well accepted and easily accessed by anyone.
> You never did reference the criteria by that researcher that left the CDC. I > would like to see his research paper stating his criteria for revising the > WB on Lyme's disease. Revising? He didn't discuss revision.
> As I stated most of the time there is a slap on the face of the doctor or > other professional and they should be able to respond. It is the service > provider that should be able to respond and that is different from "only" > service provider. > Comment all you want but give medical references for your comments. I can't figure out what you were attempting to communicate above. Nor who you're addressing, since I typically do provide a wealth of citations. Except, as I noted, where the information is so widely accepted as a given in the scientific community, as in the lack of diagnostic standards in Lyme testing.
> If you are talking about support group information in dealing with emotional > issues then that is another group. I was addressing the science, and you were addressing your personal beliefs and cookbook procedures.
> SMC is borderline on that. Sci.med is a wasteland and scimed.nutrition is > pretty much what can happen to a NG that gets out of control. > I was in Sci.med.pathology a very long ago. It has been trashed to the point > that most professionals there are embarrassed to even post there. I bet Uthman still posts; he's shameless. :-)
Susan
Robert - 26 Oct 2005 08:40 GMT > > If anything you are condescending towards doctors by implying you know more > > than they do. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > health conditions* than most docs ever will. I don't condescend to docs > who are dumb, I just stay clear of them. Doctors are not dumb and condescending posture noted. If you ever tried to get into med school you would know that. I haven't always agreed with all doctors concerning a variety of matters but dumb is really not a trait they have.
I don't care if there's stuff
> my doc doesn't know, I just hate docs who say they do when they don't. > Or lab techs. I am board certified as a Medical Technologist and state licensed as a Clinical Lab Scientist. BS in Microbiology with general rotation in clinical chemistry, hematology, immunohematoloy, serology, and microbiology. Continuing medical education mandatory 12 hours per year. Those are my qualifications along with working 30 years in laboratory medicine. I post in several NG's as laboratory medicine is pretty universal among the subspecialities or disease groups. I am required to answer all calls from doctors and nurses pertaining to laboratory medicine as the NG's are no different.
There are several different types of lab techs much as the difference in calling a nurses aid a nurse and an RN a nurse or LVN a nurse. Get the name right.
Laboratory professionals are not direct care givers as doctors and nurses are. We don't have to put up with people. We let doctors deal with people like you as it should be. We provide services to the health care providers and patients indirectly as we never come in contact with patients.
> I am a lay researcher. I used to manage the health care, psych and > medical for hundreds of people. And your qualifications in doing that are? Anything medical at all? Your degree is in what? If you are in Canada then that would make you a perfect candidate for health minister.
> > As I stated most of the time there is a slap on the face of the doctor or > > other professional and they should be able to respond. It is the service [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I can't figure out what you were attempting to communicate above. I never said that these NG's are limited to professionals only. They do have a right to defend themselves. the charter mentions specific classes or groups of people that were being encourged to participate. Those people are getting more rarer. You get these people with self appointed experts on one topic running everybody out.
Nor
> who you're addressing, since I typically do provide a wealth of > citations. Except, as I noted, where the information is so widely > accepted as a given in the scientific community, as in the lack of > diagnostic standards in Lyme testing. The diagnostic criteria that may not be sensitive in all cases of lyme disease. Criteria, yes, sensitivity no. That is not unusual. I haven't really noticed most of your posts so if you do give citations then good for you.
> I bet Uthman still posts; he's shameless. :-) > > Susan Goodluck
The name sounds familiar but believe it or not most names don't stick as get you and Sharon confused. I respond mainly to issues.
Jim Chinnis - 27 Oct 2005 04:18 GMT >> I am a lay researcher. I used to manage the health care, psych and >> medical for hundreds of people.
>And your qualifications in doing that are? >Anything medical at all? Your degree is in what? I have some background in neuroscience. One of my professors used to say that the reason we had our heads stuffed with all those neurons was that those of us in the past who had few neurons had faces with the eyes, nose, and mouth sort of smushed together, there being nothing to support the skull. Those poor people couldn't find mates and died out.
Susan's qualifications are that she clearly has lots of those neurons. I hope you, Robert, realize that that makes her very ... attractive.
Jim
Robert - 27 Oct 2005 06:14 GMT > >> I am a lay researcher. I used to manage the health care, psych and > >> medical for hundreds of people. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Jim It wasn't a personal attack on her qualifications only a simple question contrasting point. A lab technician is a 2 year degree program. My job requires a 4 year degree with course work in organic chemistry, analytical chemistry, physics, pathogenic bacteriology, virology, immunohematology and hematology as mandatory. One then has to intern for one year after graduation with hands on training on stipend as a licensed trainee. After that year one has to pass licensing exam or board certification exams or both. Once that is done that is where the real learning begins in dealing with surgeons coming in and saying you killed his patient because their was a delay in a blood transfusion crossmatch. You also have a three strike rule in making mistakes and you are out fired. If the mistake is severe enough your license can get pulled all together. We have to declare any convictions felony or otherwise yearly to the state. We are also required to take practical exams for competency involving every test we perform by outside agencies. We are subjected to unannounced inspections by regulatory agencies anytime they want. Every test performed and every instrument used in the clinical laboratory needs to have validation studies in-house after FDA approval studies are submitted to the FDA for general use. We can not deviate from the FDA approved methodology. That was a problem in the Anthrax scare a few years back and is being addressed by federal agencies in dealing with specimens not approved by the FDA with environmental sources instead of biological ones. Most people assume that my job is pretty much approached in the same manner as any other job and it isn't.
No way in hell am I going to forge or falsify cholesterol results or do x,y z just for the hell of it on testing. It doesn't work that way.
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 14:37 GMT > Susan's qualifications are that she clearly has lots of those neurons. > I hope you, Robert, realize that that makes her very ... attractive. <*bluuuuush*> Flatterer!! Stop <don't stop>. ;-)
Susan
Robert - 27 Oct 2005 20:07 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Susan Not my intent to imply otherwise. We have our differences but Susan is pretty fair fighter. I hope she and others disagree with me openly and often to the benefit of all reading this stuff.
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 21:17 GMT > Not my intent to imply otherwise. We have our differences but Susan is > pretty fair fighter. > I hope she and others disagree with me openly and often > to the benefit of all reading this stuff. You can pretty much count on it.
Susan
Chris Malcolm - 29 Oct 2005 13:24 GMT >> >> x-no-archive: yes >> >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> reports, etc., then you're seriously mistaken about the purpose of a >> sci. newsgroup, or indeed about any newsgroup.
> This newgroup is to explain diagnostic work-ups used by conventional > medicine and the rationale. It is used in explaining the purpose of why > professionals do what they are doing. > That is the whole intent of this NG.
> CHARTER sci.med.cardiology (adopted 1995)
> The purpose of this newsgroup is to establish electronic media for > communication between health care providers, scientists and other > individuals with interest in the cardiovascular field. Such > communications will provide quick and efficacious means to exchange > information and knowledge, and offer solutions to problems.
> The sci.med.cardiology newsgroup will welcome participants who are health > care providers, trainees, researchers, students or recipients with interest > in the field of cardiovascular problems.
> RATIONALE
> According the American College of Cardiology there are 22,000 > members of the American College of Cardiology. A similar [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Medical Centers with Internet access. Currently there does not > exist any newsgroup which deals with cardiovascular medicine and science.
> ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/sci/sci.med.cardiology Which supports what I said and contradicts what you said. There's clearly no point in pursuing this discussion further.
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Robert - 24 Oct 2005 18:50 GMT > >> x-no-archive: yes > >> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > reports must be misguided you misunderstand the nature of consensus > reports and sci.med newsgroups. I think you need to read my statements over again. I did not say that one can not disagree with the CDC recommendations. I did say that their integrity and intentions should not be impugned. They always follow the next step by slaping pharm influence. Unless you have read previous posts then you might be lost and I don't plan on going back. My reference is to Lyme disease serology Elisa and WB procedures. t
Chris Malcolm - 25 Oct 2005 10:04 GMT >> >> x-no-archive: yes >> >> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >> reports must be misguided you misunderstand the nature of consensus >> reports and sci.med newsgroups.
> I think you need to read my statements over again. I did not say that one > can not disagree with the CDC recommendations. I did say that their > integrity and intentions should not be impugned. Why ever not? Isn't questioning the integrity and intentions of public servants a good thing and one of the safeguards a democracy ought to offer its citizens?
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Robert - 25 Oct 2005 19:12 GMT "Chris Malcolm" <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
> > I think you need to read my statements over again. I did not say that one > > can not disagree with the CDC recommendations. I did say that their [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > servants a good thing and one of the safeguards a democracy ought to > offer its citizens? There is no end and no answer to that. What is there to prevent a policman from robbing a bank with his gun?
Let me make this point about the consensus panel. These are consensus panels OF REGULATORY agencies.
The Association of State and Territorial Public Health Laboratory Directors, CDC, the Food and Drug Administration, the National Institutes of Health, the Council of State and Territorial Epidemiologists, and the National Committee for Clinical Laboratory Standards.
They look at all the research and reach a consensus on standards they are recommendations but here is the catch 22. You do not have to follow the recommendations based on your own studies validating your procedures but if they were good clear cut studies then why weren't they accepted as the standard? The researcher left the CDC in disagreement with the policy is implication by Sharon. His views were presented and not accepted.
Again the purpose of this NG is to present the hows and whys things are done. Those are often distorted by posters here. There is a distinction between doctors diagnostic criteria which are not monitored by outside agencies and policies and procedures concerning the laboratory diagnsosis in which there is many oversight agencies of federal and state along with blind testing of laboratories.
listener - 21 Oct 2005 22:03 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Susan Oh, yes, sorry. I forgot to include you in the cabal. It was a suggestion not a slap (and certainly not like the slaps that have come from those on your side of the fence in the last few months).
What do the machinations of pharmaceutical companies have to do with this newsgroup devoted to cardiology?
See my most recent post after this. It's on topic and not a slap.
BTW, I have no interest in moderating this or any other NG, but I can tell you if it *were* a moderated NG you and zee and sharon would have been kicked out a long time ago.
L.
Susan - 21 Oct 2005 22:17 GMT > Oh, yes, sorry. I forgot to include you in the cabal. I'm hardly in bed with Zee; I think she's nuts.
It was a suggestion
> not a slap (and certainly not like the slaps that have come from those on > your side of the fence in the last few months). Really? At whom, personally, as opposed to drug info, which appears to be personal to you. Or professional, more like it.
> What do the machinations of pharmaceutical companies have to do with this > newsgroup devoted to cardiology? Simple. Cardiology patients are a goldmine of worried and potentially chronically ill long term drug users. Some companies are marketing products to the Worried Well, too, risky drugs they don't need. Behavior of pharmaceutical companies is on topic in any such group. Certainly, it's on topic in a group that frequently debates statins.
> See my most recent post after this. It's on topic and not a slap. That would be really refreshing.
> BTW, I have no interest in moderating this or any other NG, but I can tell > you if it *were* a moderated NG you and zee and sharon would have been > kicked out a long time ago. I participate in numerous moderated health groups; I've never had a post rejected, nor have I ever been chastised by the moderators. My participation is not of the same character as Zee's or even Sharon's (much of which I admire). You and Robert waste most of your posts commenting on the behavior of others; you'd be the ones tossed if this group were moderated, for just that behavior.
Grow UP.
Susan
listener - 21 Oct 2005 22:33 GMT > Simple. Cardiology patients are a goldmine of worried and potentially > chronically ill long term drug users. Some companies are marketing > products to the Worried Well, too, risky drugs they don't need. > Behavior of pharmaceutical companies is on topic in any such group. > Certainly, it's on topic in a group that frequently debates statins. I disagree completely. The marketing behavior of pharmaceutical companies is not appropriate in a ng devoted to cardiology. It *is* appropriate in a ng devoted to pharmaceutical companies.
> Grow UP. Was that a slap?
L.
Susan - 21 Oct 2005 22:36 GMT > I disagree completely. The marketing behavior of pharmaceutical companies > is not appropriate in a ng devoted to cardiology. It *is* appropriate in a > ng devoted to pharmaceutical companies. We disagree. I can live with that. I certainly am not going to tell people to leave and start another group to discuss it, that would be very inappropriate.
> > >>Grow UP. > > Was that a slap? I guess it was, so I apologize to those who read it.
But it's not a bad suggestion.
Susan
listener - 21 Oct 2005 22:39 GMT > I participate in numerous moderated health groups; I've never had a > post rejected, nor have I ever been chastised by the moderators. My [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Susan I too belong to a number of moderated groups and have seen people immediately booted when they come to bash big pharma (not that they don't deserve it) or doctors.
But at least we both agree about zee.
L.
Robert - 21 Oct 2005 22:59 GMT > > I participate in numerous moderated health groups; I've never had a > > post rejected, nor have I ever been chastised by the moderators. My [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > L. We three
Susan - 22 Oct 2005 01:01 GMT > I too belong to a number of moderated groups and have seen people > immediately booted when they come to bash big pharma (not that they don't > deserve it) or doctors. I don't come for that express purpose, but I'm not going to leave their misdeeds or misguidedness out of the equation.
> But at least we both agree about zee. But only one of us posts mostly about her and little else.
Susan
William Wagner - 21 Oct 2005 22:46 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > > > Oh, yes, sorry. I forgot to include you in the cabal. > > I'm hardly in bed with Zee; I think she's nuts. Zee may be nut's . She has her own way of understanding this here world. But she is not insane. Big difference.
Big Difference. Now If I want to analyze some one from afar I first must claim the high ground. Where is that?
Nuts by the way are High in Omega 3's.
Always on topic a bit.
Crazy Bill
 Signature Garden Shade Zone 5 S Jersey USA in a Japanese Jungle Manner.39.6376 -75.0208 This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. Sam Adams-- "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds"
fresh~horses - 27 Oct 2005 18:52 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > > > Oh, yes, sorry. I forgot to include you in the cabal. > > I'm hardly in bed with Zee; I think she's nuts. That's very unkind and hardly fair Susan. I have freely stated here from my first post three years ago that I have had statin brain injury. I have worked hard to overcome the disability and continue to work in spite of it, although not in my profession.
I do try to over come this loss caused by a toxic reaction to a drug given me to prevent disease. For example, I work hard at being supportive of my long-time friends and would not so someting to hurt them, for example, betray their confidence.
> It was a suggestion > > not a slap (and certainly not like the slaps that have come from those on [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Susan Susan - 27 Oct 2005 21:16 GMT > That's very unkind and hardly fair Susan. You are *very* frequently unkind, unfair and make horrible insinuations about others based only upon your disagreement with what they say. The rest of the time you're just irritating as heck, everywhere you pop up.
I have freely stated here
> from my first post three years ago that I have had statin brain injury. > I have worked hard to overcome the disability and continue to work in > spite of it, although not in my profession. Too freely, if you ask me.
I have longstanding brain injury and cognitive deficits from chronic neuroborreliosis. I've been disabled by physical and brain stuff since before you ever heard of statins. I just don't wear it like a "Pity Me" badge.
Susan
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 27 Oct 2005 21:26 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Susan you cannot blame it on EVIL pharma Susan....
Zeester is a PITA
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 21:31 GMT > you cannot blame it on EVIL pharma Susan.... > > Zeester is a PITA To some degree, I *could* blame my decades long missed dx on corruption and ineptitude at NIH and CDC and unsavory linkages between health insurers and academic medical consultants. There're way more politics than good science in the world of tick borne diseases in the U.S.
Folks like me, and at one time my child, get screwed by it all the time by researchers and officials who say in public what none of them believe in private. Had to see/hear it to believe it.
I'm just not so enthusiastic about wearing a V on my sweater for Victim.
Susan <*at least *knows* she's fuc*ed in the head*>
William Wagner - 27 Oct 2005 22:43 GMT > Susan <*at least *knows* she's fuc*ed in the head*> Outside and inside not one not two.
Was feeling good the sun was bright Stubbed my toe and I could not see the previous brightness
Thankfully after a nights rest We can make these mistakes again
Maybe not
Bill
 Signature Garden Shade Zone 5 S Jersey USA in a Japanese Jungle Manner.39.6376 -75.0208 This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit. Sam Adams-- "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds"
Robert - 27 Oct 2005 22:49 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and ineptitude at NIH and CDC and unsavory linkages between health > insurers and academic medical consultants. You can say that about the entire medical establishment and to have them move in any one direction is like herding cats. Sorry to say that is the norm and there are reasons for that with some not so good and others a bit more altruistic. I saw a conference on C-SPAN sponsored by NIH on Parkinson's disease. The frustration of NIH was very evident. Let me just go over some points that are universal with diseases being researched. The first is that NIH is a funding center for research and usually primary basic research and not applied or translational research into something that can be used as most of the pharm companies are more than happy to do that type of research. Primary researchers like to do research only and ground-breaking stuff in particular and don't want to do translational research into more applied medical issues. NIH can't force them to do so although they want them dearly to do so. They just don't get applications for funding for that type of research. They would give it in a heartbeat. The other issues is biomarkers. Some diseases don't have adequate biomarkers to readily look at quick success or failure over a short time period in order to see if it is successful or not. It becomes very costly to do studies that take years to follow and chronic disease is a real problem in terms of expense in studies. Pharm companies don't want to invest in long expensive studies that would require medication for long periods of time only to see another Vioxx. They seek short profit making studies. The orphan disease tax wright-off for drug companies is an insentive for them to venture out in that direction and one suggestion was for a simliar expantion to cover diseases of long duration and no biomarkers. Pharm companies are staying out of PD drug development for the above reasons. You have primary research that goes no where because the companies don't want to take the next step. Who can you blame?
There're way more politics
> than good science in the world of tick borne diseases in the U.S. Not as much as in Canada where it is pretty much all political. More government insentives are better than government take over. The CDC was the regulatory agency of all laboratories prior to CLIA 88 Clinical Laboratory Improvement Act. That fell on the FDA after that date with the labs paying for their own compliance in PT agencies like the CAP. The biomarkers for Lyme disease are poor early on and anything after that is also poor for chronic infections.
> Folks like me, and at one time my child, get screwed by it all the time > by researchers and officials who say in public what none of them believe > in private. Had to see/hear it to believe it. Guarded general public statements are the rule without knowing the specifics. Not everybody is the same and most of the time and it happens to all of us in which we make a statement and it terms out to be wrong. I am always asked the question if it's possible to have a such and such of a result for a laboratory test and I usually think of all the diseases and scenarios and usually come up with yes. The next thing I know the same person is saying that it was instrument error and that I told her it was possible and it was my fault. The question is then probable vs possible. I have always been conservative about my answers to doctors, nurses and everybody outside the lab but within the lab my answers are different. Then you have personal choices not necessarily based on evidence but on best guess.
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 23:08 GMT > You can say that about the entire medical establishment and to have them > move in any one direction is like herding cats. > Sorry to say that is the norm and there are reasons for that with some not > so good and others a bit more altruistic. I'm talking about dishonesty and corruption, not ethical disagreement. Are you now stating that dishonesty and corruption are the norm?
> I saw a conference on C-SPAN sponsored by NIH on Parkinson's disease. > The frustration of NIH was very evident. Let me just go over some points [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > to do so. They just don't get applications for funding for that type of > research. They would give it in a heartbeat. NIH controls the money; they can make them do what they want via RFP. Further, there is a lot of groundbreaking research involved in TBDs and no shortage of apps, just a shortage of a process of reviewing, awarding and conducting some studies with integrity. And under the table deals and limitations on what researchers are permitted to conclude in the case of TBDs.
You don't appear to have any familiarity with the actual process, this makes clear.
> The other issues is biomarkers. Some diseases don't have adequate biomarkers > to readily look at quick success or failure over a short time period in > order to see if it is successful or not. > It becomes very costly to do studies that take years to follow and chronic > disease is a real problem in terms of expense in studies. I wasn't referring to chronic disease in my posts.
> Pharm companies don't want to invest in long expensive studies that would > require medication for long periods of time only to see another Vioxx. They [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > don't want to take the next step. > Who can you blame? YOU. I'm bored to death at this point. Don't you ever edit yourself??? :-)
> There're way more politics > >>than good science in the world of tick borne diseases in the U.S. > > Not as much as in Canada where it is pretty much all political. WTF does Canada have to do with this discussion? I wasn't comparing Canadian research to the U.S.
> More government insentives are better than government take over. Wake me when this tangent is over...
> The CDC was the regulatory agency of all laboratories prior to CLIA 88 > Clinical Laboratory Improvement Act. > That fell on the FDA after that date with the labs paying for their own > compliance in PT agencies like the CAP. > The biomarkers for Lyme disease are poor early on and anything after that is > also poor for chronic infections. Robert, let me just say that when it comes to the politics and history of Lyme disease in the U.S. you are completely out of the loop. I envy you that, BTW. I'd like to've never been in.
> Guarded general public statements are the rule without knowing the > specifics. Not everybody is the same and most of the time and it happens to > all of us in which we make a statement and it terms out to be wrong. What are you TALKING ABOUT? Are you a frustrated lecturer with no audience?
> I am always asked the question if it's possible to have a such and such of a > result for a laboratory test and I usually think of all the diseases and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Then you have personal choices not necessarily based on evidence but on best > guess. Robert, all of this has been non-sequitir. I find it exhausting to wade through so much extraneous, OT stuff.
Susan
Robert - 27 Oct 2005 23:40 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I'm talking about dishonesty and corruption, not ethical disagreement. > Are you now stating that dishonesty and corruption are the norm? I am talking about legal ins and outs. I don't agree with a lot of things I am told to do but as an employee I do it within the context of the job. Is this dishonest in doing things in a way you would not have done otherwise? No, but somebody else might see it that way. Corruption is the same thing as it has a legal meaning if it occurs within a job context. Corrupt officials should be removed. The problem is those accusing corruption are really accuring the entire institution of corruption and on and on. Then the problem is they should do away with all the institutions and what is left? One hell of a lot more corruption of individuals rather than the institutions.
> > I saw a conference on C-SPAN sponsored by NIH on Parkinson's disease. > > The frustration of NIH was very evident. Let me just go over some points [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > and limitations on what researchers are permitted to conclude in the > case of TBDs. NIH grants research money for the research and you say that groundbreaking research has been done already? I presume that was already based on NIH grants. The NIH does not do the research so conducting studies, limitations on what researchers are permitted to conclude, doesn't really register within that context.
> You don't appear to have any familiarity with the actual process, this > makes clear. Not with your interpretation of NIH grants in which there is corruption, lack of integrity and NIH altering results. You are the expert on that.
> > The other issues is biomarkers. Some diseases don't have adequate biomarkers > > to readily look at quick success or failure over a short time period in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I wasn't referring to chronic disease in my posts. There's no biomarker that is always present in lyme disease and thus no way to judge efficacy.
> > Pharm companies don't want to invest in long expensive studies that would > > require medication for long periods of time only to see another Vioxx. They [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > YOU. I'm bored to death at this point. Don't you ever edit yourself??? > :-) No, you and Zee can edit my English aswell.
The bottom line is that you and Zee with her statin toxicity have a lot in common. Many people having diseases in which there can be no biomarkers and so many people have it and the NIH is corrupt etc. The difference is that Zee wants to stop all pharmaceuticals and you want to be on antibiotics for 10 years because of the purported infection. People are not always so sure about everything as you guys are. Memory loss, it's statins oh no what a minute i'ts lyme's disease. It may be all of the above or none of the above. The researchers are having trouble deciding and for you guys it's 100%. If they can't decide it must be because of corruption.
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 23:53 GMT > I am talking about legal ins and outs. > I don't agree with a lot of things I am told to do but as an employee I do [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > One hell of a lot more corruption of individuals rather than the > institutions. I know the names of the individuals, and the corrupt acts. I'm just not stating them publicly on usenet. I have facts at my disposal, not just a temperament inclined to distrust institutions.
> NIH grants research money for the research and you say that groundbreaking > research has been done already? I presume that was already based on NIH > grants. > The NIH does not do the research so conducting studies, limitations on what > researchers are permitted to conclude, doesn't really register within that > context. Boy, do you have that wrong. Right down to instructions to rewrite a Lyme proposal and delete all references to the word "chronic" and replace it with "post Lyme disease syndrome." This is deciding what the researcher is allowed to propose, study, and conclude, all at the RFP stage. There is also manipulation of the review process to skew it to inferior proposals that toe a party line.
> Not with your interpretation of NIH grants in which there is corruption, > lack of integrity and NIH altering results. You are the expert on that. Only in the context of the study review and award process and study conduct I've been witness to, or had firsthand accounts of from parties to the process. And from firsthand accounts of the researchers involved.
> There's no biomarker that is always present in lyme disease and thus no way > to judge efficacy. RIGHT. So there's no such thing as a clinically meaningful diagnostic test!!
> No, you and Zee can edit my English aswell. It's not the English, Robert, it's the, well, the MASS. :-)
> The bottom line is that you and Zee with her statin toxicity have a lot in > common. Many people having diseases in which there can be no biomarkers and > so many people have it and the NIH is corrupt etc. Difference is that I'm not crazy, I'm not stupid, and I have firsthand knowledge of what I've stated. I make a distinction between what I think and what I know for a fact or have witnessed.
> The difference is that Zee wants to stop all pharmaceuticals and you want to > be on antibiotics for 10 years because of the purported infection. This was a really stupid thing to say, and insulting.
> People are not always so sure about everything as you guys are. > Memory loss, it's statins oh no what a minute i'ts lyme's disease. > It may be all of the above or none of the above. The researchers are having > trouble deciding and for you guys it's 100%. > If they can't decide it must be because of corruption. You don't seem to be addressing anything I've actually said. You are consistent here in operating on what you believe to be true without having any actual, um, information or grasp of facts.
You seem to deal only in certainties, and in what you need to believe. I want folks to behave with integrity and to deal with the truth, even if it challenges closely held beliefs.
Susan
Robert - 28 Oct 2005 03:55 GMT > > There's no biomarker that is always present in lyme disease and thus no way > > to judge efficacy. > > RIGHT. So there's no such thing as a clinically meaningful diagnostic > test!! I didn't say that. I said there is no biomarker that is "always" present. I did not say that there are no biomarkers present. I did not say that tests are not meaningful. That is solely your interpretation and no one else's. Please show me a diagnostic workup that does not call for lyme serology testing. We are off topic here so I will end this with the assumption that you agree with everything I have said. I don't believe in the Lyme Serology Mafia
Susan - 28 Oct 2005 13:13 GMT >>>There's no biomarker that is always present in lyme disease and thus no > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > you agree with everything I have said. > I don't believe in the Lyme Serology Mafia You seem to operate on assumptions most of the time.
And you know what they say about assumption.
Susan
fresh~horses - 27 Oct 2005 22:52 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Susan <*at least *knows* she's fuc*ed in the head*> I would holding official disability status when one obviously has ability is a roaring flaming V.
I work for my living.
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 23:23 GMT > I would holding official disability status when one obviously has > ability is a roaring flaming V. Ooh! Was this an attempt at landing blow to my self esteem? That's not very nice. :-) Sort of a junkyard dog vibe, hasn't it?
Fact is, you don't know anything about my current or prior health status, what abilities or disabilities exist, nor whether they are stable or progressive. You don't know what the basis of my disability claim is, how frequently it's reviewed medically and whether it's considered total and/or permanent, etc.
In sum, as usual, you've spouted off, this time in an especially ugly, virulent manner, without knowing jackshit.
Pathetic thing is that you are clueless as to what you reveal about yourself with such behavior. Nothing is beneath you. As if anyone needed reminding.
> I work for my living. I suppose there's a market for all sorts of garbage out there.
I feel very fortunate to have had insurance for the meager disability income that I pay taxes on even if it just covers unreimbursed medical expenses some years. I'm even more grateful for a spouse who loves and supports me in every way, including financially, no matter how ill I get.
Susan
fresh~horses - 27 Oct 2005 23:32 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Susan I know all that you have posted about your disability.
I have no more time for you Susan.
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 23:42 GMT > I know all that you have posted about your disability. That may be so. But I have never posted about most, certainly not the worst, of my health problems and their effects on my life and functioning. That would be whiny and undignified. That would be like you, ad nauseum.
As usual, you've attacked without the facts. And, as usual, in an unethical, backstabbing, gossipy manner. No integrity to you at all.
> I have no more time for you Susan. Ouch, bummer.
Susan
Robert - 27 Oct 2005 23:43 GMT > > x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > I have no more time for you Susan. Ok ladies as the moderator of this group let's knock all this sh.t off.
Let's talk about topics rather than cat fight stuff.
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 28 Oct 2005 00:56 GMT >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > I have no more time for you Susan. course not Zee...off to skuttle back under your bush...as you always do when someone "bests" you...
lol...pathetic
listener - 28 Oct 2005 03:58 GMT >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > I have no more time for you Susan. The great Zee has Spoken! Susan, BEGONE!!
L.
fresh~horses - 27 Oct 2005 22:43 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > about others based only upon your disagreement with what they say. The > rest of the time you're just irritating as heck, everywhere you pop up. You can't count on one hand the posts I've made that are anything like the unethical, gossipy and backstabbing behaviour you wallow in.
> I have freely stated here > > from my first post three years ago that I have had statin brain injury. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I have longstanding brain injury and cognitive deficits from chronic > neuroborreliosis. I'm very sorry for this; but also, very aware of it. One of the first long threads I saw when I came here was you doing just what you accuse me of.
I've been disabled by physical and brain stuff since
> before you ever heard of statins. I just don't wear it like a "Pity Me"
> badge. I disagree.
> Susan Susan - 27 Oct 2005 22:55 GMT > You can't count on one hand the posts I've made that are anything like > the unethical, gossipy and backstabbing behaviour you wallow in. Yeah, that's projection, right there. Narcissists always think everyone else operates the way they do. You just outed yourself; those are the exact terms that perfectly describe your continual posting behavior.
> I'm very sorry for this; but also, very aware of it. One of the first > long threads I saw when I came here was you doing just what you accuse > me of. Not a chance; never happened. I never discuss my illness by using it as a Pity Plea the way you do almost daily as a poor excuse for bad behavior. My illness only comes up in context, and not very often.
> I disagree. Yabbut, nobody gives a sh.t what you think, least of all me.
Susan
Robert - 27 Oct 2005 23:04 GMT > > x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You can't count on one hand the posts I've made that are anything like > the unethical, gossipy and backstabbing behaviour you wallow in. I did find your post accusing me of murdering my mother with statins as strange to say the least. Any misdemeanor or felony convictions need to be reported to the state. The state professional ethics code and regulations make it mandatory to do so. Murder charges should be brought to the district attorneys office.
The UCSD study does mention psychiatric illness as something they are studying on whether it is unmasked or primary disorders? Any chronic illness will have at the very least a secondary psychological impact and many neurological illnesses have primary mental disorders attached.
I think people here are trying to tell you something. GET HELP.
Susan - 27 Oct 2005 23:25 GMT >>>x-no-archive: yes >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > I think people here are trying to tell you something. GET HELP. Nah, I'm not trying to tell her that.
Susan
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 28 Oct 2005 01:00 GMT >> x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You can't count on one hand the posts I've made that are anything like > the unethical, gossipy and backstabbing behaviour you wallow in. actually we cannot count at ALL your posts Zeezter
as you so clevely erase them all...
Susan...like me...leaves posts out there...yep...someone like you can dig out the ones where we may have LOST it to someone like you...
you on the other hand...wipe out your obnoxious posts...
that is..til I quote them in my reply...ha ha ha
>> I have freely stated here >> > from my first post three years ago that I have had statin brain injury. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >> Susan Susan - 28 Oct 2005 01:44 GMT > Susan...like me...leaves posts out there...yep...someone like you can dig > out the ones where we may have LOST it to someone like you... I non-archive.
Susan
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 28 Oct 2005 03:00 GMT whoops...so you do...
still...Zee said we could "count on one hand"...when her posts are in the ether...
> x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Susan Chris Malcolm - 29 Oct 2005 13:46 GMT > You can't count on one hand the posts I've made that are anything like > the unethical, gossipy and backstabbing behaviour you wallow in. A refreshingly accurate self-appraisal :-)
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Jason - 21 Oct 2005 22:17 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Susan Susan, Great post. I agree with you. Medical studies are important in relation to sci.med.cardiology Jason
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Sharon Hope - 24 Oct 2005 05:25 GMT Planning on a long hibernation, are we?
> x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Susan Boron Elgar - 27 Oct 2005 13:08 GMT >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Fortunately for the rest of us, you aren't our moderator. Wow...I see you like to use that phrase in all sorts of usenet groups. Sounds like *you* like to act as moderator.
Boron
Robert - 27 Oct 2005 20:11 GMT > >x-no-archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Boron Boron, I appreciate your input to this NG but to start off with a post like this? As moderator to this NG I will have to delete it and you will have to start over.
William Wagner - 27 Oct 2005 20:41 GMT > > >x-no-archive: yes > > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > As moderator to this NG I will have to delete it and you will have to start > over. Makes sense to me. I just thought Boron miss typed by two keys to the left. Thanks Robert moderator on high. Whew the asylum may be controlled by the inmates. I assume a bad day for both of you.
Alas Robert here may not be the Robert that is about often and Boron may be Robert.
Bill
Write a poem fast and think about it.
Off Topic wonders below
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Robert - 21 Oct 2005 21:41 GMT > "eml" <mmlevy46@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1129925246.449902.291030 > @g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > L. It's not just pharm bashing but you also have to have collusion with all of healthcare which means impugning the integrity of every healthcare professional out there. It also means endless posts about the FDA and so there is government collusion also. The list is endless as are their posts. It is tragic that the vaccine industry has already taken a hit. Maybe eml should write a letter to the pharm reps appealing for new drugs to treat PD and she should include this post making sure that the company takes 20 years to develop a PD drug making sure it is 100% safe and 100% effective in any and all diseases. Once this is done then independent trials can be undertaken and in about 30 years you can see it on the counter.
The only NG for them is misc.alternate.healthcare.
William Wagner - 21 Oct 2005 22:15 GMT > > "eml" <mmlevy46@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1129925246.449902.291030 > > @g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > The only NG for them is misc.alternate.healthcare. Interesting quote from I guess almost 30 years ago.
I think the human interactions in Medicine has been co-opted by the costs or monies implied. People are beds sort of speaks of the loss. Of course i
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