Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / September 2005
Strategies for People to Raise Their Levels of Good HDL Cholesterol
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William Wagner - 22 Sep 2005 15:54 GMT Hope this is on topic enough.
Enjoy
Bill
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http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/514690/?sc=dwhn
Source: Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions Released: Tue 20-Sep-2005, 13:40 ET Embargo expired: Wed 21-Sep-2005, 17:00 ET
Strategies for People to Raise Their Levels of Good HDL Cholesterol Libraries Medical News Keywords HEART DISEASE, CHOLESTEROL, HIGH-DENSITY LIPOPROTEIN Contact Information Available for logged-in reporters only Description Cardiology experts at Johns Hopkins have issued interim guidelines for physicians on how best to treat low levels of HDL cholesterol, the so-called good cholesterol, which helps keep arteries clear from the buildup of LDL cholesterol, the so-called bad cholesterol.
Newswise ‹ Cardiology experts at Johns Hopkins have issued interim guidelines for physicians on how best to treat low levels of HDL cholesterol, the so-called good cholesterol, which helps keep arteries clear from the buildup of LDL cholesterol, the so-called bad cholesterol. More than 54 million Americans are estimated to need higher levels of HDL, according to the American Heart Association. In an article to be published in The New England Journal of Medicine online Sept. 22, the Hopkins researchers report that existing strategies to prevent heart disease have not addressed the best means to raise HDL cholesterol and instead have focused heavily on lowering LDL cholesterol, which leads to plaque formation and narrowing of the arteries that can cause heart attack. ³We have reached a turning point in the prevention of coronary heart disease from an emphasis during the last 15 years on lowering LDL cholesterol levels to an emphasis in the next decade on raising levels of HDL cholesterol,² says article lead author and cardiologist Roger Blumenthal, M.D., an associate professor and director of the Ciccarone Preventive Cardiology Center at The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and its Heart Institute. According to Blumenthal, existing guidelines from the U. S. National Institutes of Health and its National Cholesterol Education Program primarily emphasize lowering LDL cholesterol to control blood lipid levels without considering the alternative of raising HDL cholesterol as the primary or even secondary goal. However, Blumenthal notes that every single milligram per deciliter increase in HDL cholesterol lowers a person¹s risk of suffering a fatal heart attack by about 3 percent. Low levels of HDL cholesterol are known to increase overall risk of dying from heart disease and, specifically, to increase risk of arteries narrowing again after angioplasty surgery to clear them. Low levels of HDL cholesterol, he says, are defined as less than 40 milligrams per deciliter of blood in men and 50 milligrams per deciliter in women. In the NEJM report, Blumenthal and fellow expert, nurse practitioner Dominique Ashen, Ph.D., C.R.N.P., an assistant professor at Hopkins¹ School of Nursing, provide a comprehensive review and summary of the 50 most significant research studies on how best to manage peoples¹ HDL-cholesterol levels through modification of lifestyle risk factors for developing heart disease and use of drug therapy. In addition, the researchers support their summary findings with a concise table listing heart medications with guidelines about how and when the drugs - niacin, fibrates and statins, or various combinations - can be used to raise HDL cholesterol levels. Also provided in the table are details on the drugs¹ chemical properties, or mechanism of action, and possible side effects. However, Blumenthal and Ashen point out that research to date has not yet clearly distinguished which reductions in risk from heart disease are due to drug gains in HDL levels or other direct effects on the arteries. ³That has been responsible for delaying revisions to national guidelines on HDL cholesterol,² Blumenthal says. Using a recent patient case study from Hopkins involving a 41-year-old man with low levels of HDL cholesterol (28 milligrams per deciliter), the researchers reviewed how over a period of three years his HDL levels were raised to above normal by modifying his lifestyle risk factors. These modifications included making sure the patient engaged in regular exercise, ceased smoking, assumed control over his weight as measured by body mass index, limited alcohol intake, and monitored dietary fat intake. The patient lost nearly 50 pounds while undergoing treatment. To raise HDL cholesterol levels, the researchers recommend a regular exercise program of brisk aerobic exercise for 30 minutes, several times per week, if not every day. Quitting smoking, they point out, provides an average increase in HDL levels of 4 milligrams per deciliter. Aids such as drug therapy, nicotine replacement products and counseling can help patients quit. Weight control is also highlighted as critical to raising HDL levels, with the researchers noting that every kilogram of weight lost raises a patient¹s HDL levels by an average 0.35 milligrams per deciliter. A reasonable weight loss goal, they suggest, for overweight or obese patients is 1 pound, or 0.45 kilograms, per week, with a target body mass index of less than 25. Mild to moderate consumption of alcohol, no more than one to two drinks per day, they say, has been shown beneficial in raising HDL levels by an average of 4 milligrams per deciliter, irrespective of type of alcohol consumed. But the researchers caution that the potential risks here may outweigh the benefits in people with liver or addiction problems. For dietary control, the researchers recommend a diet low in saturated fat and rich in the polyunsaturated fatty acids found in foods such as oils (olive, canola, soy and flaxseed), nuts (almonds, peanuts, walnuts and pecans), and cold-water fish (salmon and mackerel), and shellfish. Consumption of carbohydrates, they say, should be restricted because high glycemic products, such as processed cereals and breads, are associated with lower HDL levels. In the report, the researchers cite niacin, also called nicotinic acid or vitamin B3, as the most effective medication for raising HDL cholesterol, leading to increases of 20 percent to 35 percent. Fibrate therapy is also effective, they say, producing an average increase of 10 percent to 25 percent. Statins are the least effective of the three drug classes, used primarily to reduce LDL cholesterol, raising HDL levels by 2 percent to 15 percent. When used in combination, low-dose statins and high-dose niacin have been shown to produce benefits of 21 percent to 26 percent. ³Our report offers people interim guidelines on how best to manage HDL cholesterol levels while awaiting the results of national clinical trials, which could prove more definitive,² says Ashen, who was lead author of the article. ³These guidelines also offer a good description of the problem posed by low levels of HDL cholesterol, along with details on how HDL cholesterol metabolism works in the body with LDL cholesterol. ³The guidelines should help physicians and nurses to manage their patients¹ blood lipid levels, including HDL cholesterol, with drug therapies currently available, and should help prepare them to manage future therapies, expected to be developed within the next five years, that focus on raising HDL-cholesterol levels.² Funding support for the researchers was provided by the Maryland Athletic Club & Wellness Center Charitable Foundation in Lutherville, Md.
2005 Newswise. All Rights Reserved.
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fresh~horses@despammed.com - 22 Sep 2005 17:11 GMT Points that stand out for me, William:
> In an article to be published in The New England Journal of Medicine > online Sept. 22, the Hopkins researchers report that existing strategies > to prevent heart disease have not addressed the best means to raise HDL > cholesterol -----snip----
> However, Blumenthal notes that every single milligram per deciliter > increase in HDL cholesterol lowers a person¹s risk of suffering a fatal > heart attack by about 3 percent. --- snip-----
> Using a recent patient case study from Hopkins involving a 41-year-old > man with low levels of HDL cholesterol (28 milligrams per deciliter), > the researchers reviewed how over a period of three years his HDL levels > were raised to above normal by modifying his lifestyle risk factors.
> These modifications included making sure the patient engaged in regular > exercise, ceased smoking, assumed control over his weight as measured by > body mass index, limited alcohol intake, and monitored dietary fat > intake. The patient lost nearly 50 pounds while undergoing treatment. Exercise
>To raise HDL cholesterol levels, the researchers recommend a regular > exercise program of brisk aerobic exercise for 30 minutes, several times > per week, if not every day. Smoking
> Quitting smoking, they point out, provides an average increase in HDL > levels of 4 milligrams per deciliter. Weight loss
> Weight control is also highlighted as critical to raising HDL levels, > with the researchers noting that every kilogram of weight lost raises a > patient¹s HDL levels by an average 0.35 milligrams per deciliter. A > reasonable weight loss goal, they suggest, for overweight or obese > patients is 1 pound, or 0.45 kilograms, per week, with a target body > mass index of less than 25. Alcohol Mild to moderate consumption of alcohol, no more than one to two drinks
> per day, they say, has been shown beneficial in raising HDL levels by an > average of 4 milligrams per deciliter, irrespective of type of alcohol > consumed. But the researchers caution that the potential risks here may > outweigh the benefits in people with liver or addiction problems. Diet
> For dietary control, the researchers recommend a diet low in saturated > fat and rich in the polyunsaturated fatty acids found in foods such as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > high glycemic products, such as processed cereals and breads, are > associated with lower HDL levels. Niacin
> In the report, the researchers cite niacin, also called nicotinic acid > or vitamin B3, as the most effective medication for raising HDL > cholesterol, leading to increases of 20 percent to 35 percent. Fibrate > therapy is also effective, they say, producing an average increase of 10 > percent to 25 percent. Statins
> Statins are the least effective of the three drug > classes, used primarily to reduce LDL cholesterol, raising HDL levels by > 2 percent to 15 percent. When used in combination, low-dose statins and > high-dose niacin have been shown to produce benefits of 21 percent to 26 > percent. Bill - 22 Sep 2005 23:09 GMT William Wagner wrote:
Points that stand out for me, William:
> In an article to be published in The New England Journal of Medicine > online Sept. 22, the Hopkins researchers report that existing strategies > to prevent heart disease have not addressed the best means to raise HDL > cholesterol -----snip----
> However, Blumenthal notes that every single milligram per deciliter > increase in HDL cholesterol lowers a person¹s risk of suffering a fatal > heart attack by about 3 percent. --- snip-----
> Using a recent patient case study from Hopkins involving a 41-year-old > man with low levels of HDL cholesterol (28 milligrams per deciliter), > the researchers reviewed how over a period of three years his HDL levels > were raised to above normal by modifying his lifestyle risk factors.
> These modifications included making sure the patient engaged in regular > exercise, ceased smoking, assumed control over his weight as measured by > body mass index, limited alcohol intake, and monitored dietary fat > intake. The patient lost nearly 50 pounds while undergoing treatment. Exercise
>To raise HDL cholesterol levels, the researchers recommend a regular > exercise program of brisk aerobic exercise for 30 minutes, several times > per week, if not every day. Smoking
> Quitting smoking, they point out, provides an average increase in HDL > levels of 4 milligrams per deciliter. Weight loss
> Weight control is also highlighted as critical to raising HDL levels, > with the researchers noting that every kilogram of weight lost raises a > patient¹s HDL levels by an average 0.35 milligrams per deciliter. A > reasonable weight loss goal, they suggest, for overweight or obese > patients is 1 pound, or 0.45 kilograms, per week, with a target body > mass index of less than 25. Alcohol Mild to moderate consumption of alcohol, no more than one to two drinks
> per day, they say, has been shown beneficial in raising HDL levels by an > average of 4 milligrams per deciliter, irrespective of type of alcohol > consumed. But the researchers caution that the potential risks here may > outweigh the benefits in people with liver or addiction problems. Diet
> For dietary control, the researchers recommend a diet low in saturated > fat and rich in the polyunsaturated fatty acids found in foods such as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > high glycemic products, such as processed cereals and breads, are > associated with lower HDL levels. Niacin
> In the report, the researchers cite niacin, also called nicotinic acid > or vitamin B3, as the most effective medication for raising HDL > cholesterol, leading to increases of 20 percent to 35 percent. Fibrate > therapy is also effective, they say, producing an average increase of 10 > percent to 25 percent. Statins
> Statins are the least effective of the three drug > classes, used primarily to reduce LDL cholesterol, raising HDL levels by > 2 percent to 15 percent. When used in combination, low-dose statins and > high-dose niacin have been shown to produce benefits of 21 percent to 26 > percent. I also add that fibrates and statins should probably not be taken together or at least with extreme caution. Fibrates can significantly increase the likelihood of some of the severe side effects of statins.
Niacin does some of the same things as statins and may also increase the probability of side effects. If you add niacin to statins, you should be on the lookout for side effects and go through the series of blood tests you went through when you started statins. (And, of course, tell your Dr.)
Bill
fresh~horses@despammed.com - 23 Sep 2005 00:01 GMT > William Wagner wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > Bill I saw a pharmacy sign today for cholesterol tests. I was bored and feeling mischevious. Ok I never miss those tests. I looooove watching their jaws drop. While I was waiting for the inevitable approach of the pharmacist with my results and a serious, slightly sad and apologeteic look on his face (never fails) I overheard a women who must have been in her late 70s tell him although she had muscle pain from Lipitor, her cholesterol was 5.4, and her doctor said she had to take them until she gets it down more. She was about 5' 7" and maybe 110 pounds, and as we know, statins are not indicated for her no matter what cardiovascular disease she has.
The beleagured pharmacist finally made it over to where I was sitting, smirking.
Seems the machine only reads to 7.75.
Zee
William Wagner - 23 Sep 2005 00:13 GMT > > William Wagner wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 101 lines] > > Zee Zee
Chances are with your attitude you will live forever . During this extended period of time you will cause us to take a more active part in our own health challenges. Not a bad legacy .
Live long!
Bill
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Jason - 23 Sep 2005 00:13 GMT > William Wagner wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > Bill Bill, Great post. I just wanted to add that anyone that plans to take statins should also CoEnzyme Q10 supplements. I also suggest that you read this book before taking statins: WHAT YOU MUST KNOW ABOUT STATIN DRUGS AND THEIR NATURAL ALTERNATIVES by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.
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Jim Chinnis - 23 Sep 2005 01:46 GMT Based on my personal experience, one can double their HDL by combining all the (non-drug) strategies mentioned. I doubled mine from around 35 to about 70mg/dl. According to the Johns Hopkins folks, I've dropped my risk of a heart attack by 3x35% = 105%. I guess they aren't as smart as they think... -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Susan - 23 Sep 2005 14:50 GMT > Based on my personal experience, one can double their HDL by combining all > the (non-drug) strategies mentioned. I doubled mine from around 35 to about > 70mg/dl. According to the Johns Hopkins folks, I've dropped my risk of a > heart attack by 3x35% = 105%. I guess they aren't as smart as they think... > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA And I doubled mine from a ten year long level of 34 to 70 with diet and pantethine alone. To 68 form 34 with diet alone, but the pantethine knocked 70 pts. off my LDL.
Susan
William Wagner - 23 Sep 2005 15:33 GMT > x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Susan I'm sort of thinking B Vitamins. If Vitamin deficiency requires time to occur and time to regress. Hmmm?
Found This http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CUH/is_4_27/ai_n6006395#conti nue
Deals with Triglyceride's and HDL ratio. I'll have to print it out (5 Pages) to try to understand it. Currently out of Ink again.
Bill
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fresh~horses@despammed.com - 23 Sep 2005 15:38 GMT > Based on my personal experience, one can double their HDL by combining all > the (non-drug) strategies mentioned. I doubled mine from around 35 to about > 70mg/dl. According to the Johns Hopkins folks, I've dropped my risk of a > heart attack by 3x35% = 105%. I guess they aren't as smart as they think... > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA What did you do about Bs and folate Jim?
Zee
Jim Chinnis - 23 Sep 2005 17:44 GMT fresh~horses@despammed.com wrote in part:
>> Based on my personal experience, one can double their HDL by combining all >> the (non-drug) strategies mentioned. I doubled mine from around 35 to about [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Zee I've dropped them. I take a multivitamin-mineral pill each day with about 100% of the rda of each vitamin (400 mmg of folic acid).
I try to adjust my supplements and diet according to the evidence as it comes in. It looks like large doses of B vitamins don't do anything for heart disease. My homocysteine is holding at around 12.5.
I still drink coffee, too... -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
GaryG - 23 Sep 2005 03:21 GMT > http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/514690/?sc=dwhn > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > high-dose niacin have been shown to produce benefits of 21 percent to 26 > percent. I've treated my cholesterol levels with exercise and niacin for the last 9 years or so. I take 3000mg/day of niacin, under doctor's supervision, and have seen my HDL climb from 40 to 80 during that time. It's also helped with my LDL, which has declined from 161 to 91.
IMO, niacin is one of the unsung heroes for cholesterol control. I'm self-insured, with no prescription drug benefits, which is why I sought it out in the first place. My niacin only costs me 7 cents per day...compared to $3-4/day for the statin drugs. Plus, unlike statins, it helps raise HDL.
Unfortunately, there's no constituency to promote niacin, because nobody is going to make a billion dollars from it.
GG
> ³Our report offers people interim guidelines on how best to manage HDL > cholesterol levels while awaiting the results of national clinical [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > 2005 Newswise. All Rights Reserved. fresh~horses@despammed.com - 23 Sep 2005 03:26 GMT > > http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/514690/?sc=dwhn > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > GG It's such an amazing success story GG that I think you should lay it out here for new posters. Tell us exactly how you went from first dose to what you take now, what you had to deal with and how you did that. No one else will be able to do exactly what you did, but it might be helpful to have some understanding of what could work, especially if trying to *sell* the idea to one's physician.
Zee
GaryG - 23 Sep 2005 04:19 GMT > > > http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/514690/?sc=dwhn > > > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Zee Sure...here goes.
I have a family history of heart disease - my Dad (a smoker) died at age 47. My mom and brother and I all have fairly high cholesterol levels (untreated). Despite being pretty active (cycling 2000 miles or so per year), and maintaining a normal weight, I was unable to get my cholesterol below about 255 (with a not very good ratio of HDL to LDL).
While still employed (with health benefits), I tried a couple of different statins. One gave me a persistent low-grade headache, while the other seemed to leave a metallic taste in my mouth. Both, however, did a very good job of reducing LDL (can't recall HDL effects).
After starting my own business, and becoming self-insured, the cost of statins became prohibitive so I started looking for alternatives. I tried niacin for a while, but the "flushing" effects were quite intolerable (I've heard others say the same thing). I quit taking the niacin, and tried "BiosLife" (a proprietary fiber mix, sold by doctors) instead. After 3 months, my cholesterol levels hadn't changed a bit, and the stuff was kind of expensive so I quit taking it too.
While participating in a fundraiser for MS (an MS150 bike ride in the Sierras), I mentioned my dilemma to a doctor I met on the ride. He said that niacin was good, but that it would take some time for my body to build up a tolerance to the flushing. He urged patience, and recommended I start with a low dosage, taken with an aspirin just before bedtime.
I followed his recommendations, and gradually (over 4-6 months) increased my dosage. I also found that it's important to take it religiously, because you can quickly lose your tolerance for it (within a few days). But, by being persistent and patient, I was able to increase my dosage to it's current level (1000 mg in the morning, and 2000 mg before I go to bed at night).
This was all done with my doctor's knowledge and encouragement. I also get blood tested ever year or two for liver function abnormalities.
So far, the results have been outstanding. There's no side effects to the niacin (as long as I take it regularly), and my liver tests are normal. And, like I noted before, you can't beat the cost.
GG
fresh~horses@despammed.com - 23 Sep 2005 15:31 GMT > > > > http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/514690/?sc=dwhn > > > > [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > > GG Excellent GG. Just a couple questions:
What was your starting dose?
What type of niacin did you use (chemical name).
Was Lance on dope?
Zee
GaryG - 23 Sep 2005 20:49 GMT > > > > "William Wagner" <PainInAss__williamwag@gmail.com> wrote in message news:PainInAss__williamwag-5C8373.10541522092005@news.supernews.com...
> > > > > http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/514690/?sc=dwhn > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > > What was your starting dose? Can't recall...it was probably 500 mg (the pills I currently take) or 100 mg, but it's been so long that I'm not sure.
> What type of niacin did you use (chemical name). Plain old nicotinic acid. I don't take the "timed release" or "extended release" formulations, as I've read where they have a higher incidence of liver toxicity.
> Was Lance on dope? I'd like to think not, but who knows?
FWIW, my brother knew him when he was just 16 years old, and it was clear even then that he was a gifted athlete and a genetic one-in-a-million. He was beating seasoned professional triathletes way back then, which lends credence to the "he's just gifted and not on dope" viewpoint.
GG
> Zee fresh~horses@despammed.com - 23 Sep 2005 21:10 GMT > > > > > "William Wagner" <PainInAss__williamwag@gmail.com> wrote in message > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 143 lines] > > > Zee I agree. Some people are genetically gifted. Music, art, language; or athleticism. Why not?
Zee
Robert - 23 Sep 2005 08:08 GMT > > > http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/514690/?sc=dwhn > > > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Zee There is no sales job needed. My doctor put me one niacin first before anything else. I never heard about it. I knew nothing about cholesterol lowering drugs. He told me to buy it over the counter and try it. The only problem was my tolerance with bad headaches. Only then was I put on statins. Nobody is trying to hide anything out there. Gary is not a genius and anybody can look it up and try what ever they want to. The doctor won't know the difference. The cholesterol test is what governs decision making on how well one is doing. I don't see all the great conspiracy about hiding alternative cholesterol lowering remedies. Try garlic or anything else. Just because nobody is promoting niacin and nobody is making millions off of it does not mean that nobody knows about it. It is a myth that conventional medicine does not prescribe it. It is included in the ATPIII that Steve said was so pharm influenced. The reason for that is the elevating HDL properties and it's decreasing Lp(a) properties that statins do not have.
Jim Chinnis - 23 Sep 2005 17:50 GMT "Robert" <RobertsSong@hotmail.com> wrote in part:
>> It's such an amazing success story GG that I think you should lay it >> out here for new posters. Tell us exactly how you went from first dose [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >There is no sales job needed. My doctor put me one niacin first before >anything else. Both my internist and cardiologist mentioned niacin as the first thing to try. But my internist decided not to do so based on my blood workup, which showed somewhat elevated uric acid. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
William Wagner - 23 Sep 2005 18:01 GMT > "Robert" <RobertsSong@hotmail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA Ever have a touch out Gout? Ouch!!! I did and cut back on Dairy and the little mouse with big teeth an Image of gout faded away.
Nasty!
Bill
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Jim Chinnis - 23 Sep 2005 19:08 GMT William Wagner <PainInAss__williamwag@gmail.com> wrote in part:
>Ever have a touch out Gout? Ouch!!! No. Thankfully. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Frankie - 25 Sep 2005 04:06 GMT Post - 1) WW --- snip----- In the report, the researchers cite niacin, also called nicotinic acid or vitamin B3, as the most effective medication for raising HDL cholesterol, leading to increases of 20 percent to 35 percent. --- snip-----
Bill, Although nicotinic acid raises HDL, it also raises homocysteine levels, due to a significant decrease in plasma concentrations of B6 and B12.
http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/99/1/178 Page down to: Conclusions
Post - 11) JC --- snip-----
>What did you do about Bs and folate Jim? >Zee I've dropped them My homocysteine is holding at around 12.5 --- snip-----
Jim, There are no safe levels of homocysteine, but optimal levels are 6.2 or less. For each 3 point increase above 6.3, there is a 35% increased risk of heart attack. (American Journal of Epidemiology, 1996, 143[9]:845-59) Some need to add zinc and TMG (trimethylglycine) to work with the B's to lower homocysteine.
http://www.y2khealthanddetox.com/truthchol.html
Dr Deborah Baker-Racine sells her own vitamins (who doesn't today) and I'm not advertising her products. Her article is one of the best I've found that explains homocysteine - cause(s) and what to do about it.
Post - 12) Re: niacin GG --- snip----- I take 3000mg/day of niacin, under doctor's supervision, and have seen my HDL climb from 40 to 80 during that time. It's also helped with my LDL, which has declined from 161 to 91. --- snip-----
Post - 14) --- snip----- by being persistent and patient, I was able to increase my dosage to it's current level (1000 mg in the morning, and 2000 mg before I go to bed at night). --- snip-----
My only recommendation Gary is that your doctor checks your homocysteine levels, especially with such high doses of niacin (nicotinic acid).
Great discussion,
Frankie
Jim Chinnis - 25 Sep 2005 04:19 GMT "Frankie" <birm47@gmail.com> wrote in part:
>Jim, >There are no safe levels of homocysteine, but optimal levels are 6.2 or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Some need to add zinc and TMG (trimethylglycine) to work with the B's >to lower homocysteine. When I look at the evidence in total, I can't see any support for reducing homocysteine with B vitamins, other methyl donors such as trimethylglycine, or zinc. Studies of folate (a methyl donor), B-12 and B-6 have not shown any reduction in heart disease events despite the reductions in homocysteine. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Frankie - 25 Sep 2005 05:26 GMT Elevated homocysteine causes oxidized LDL which causes atherosclerosis.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/439520?src=search http://www.ochsnerjournal.org/ochsonline/?request=get-document&issn=1524-5012&vo lume=002&issue=04&page=0209 http://www.pubmedcentral.com/articlerender.fcgi?artid=199202 Page down to: Homocysteine and NF-B activation
Juhana Harju - 25 Sep 2005 08:53 GMT : Elevated homocysteine causes oxidized LDL which causes : atherosclerosis. : : http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/439520?src=search http://www.ochsnerjournal.org/ochsonline/?request=get-document&issn=1524-5012&vo lume=002&issue=04&page=0209
: http://www.pubmedcentral.com/articlerender.fcgi?artid=199202 : Page down to: Homocysteine and NF-?B activation Everyone knows that homocysteine is associated with increased risk of atheroschlerosis and stroke. The problem is that it has not been shown that supplementing with vitamin B's would reduce _total_ _mortality_ although supplementing does decrease homocysteine. I would like to see such evidence. So Frankie, if you have any evidence for the that, I would be grateful.
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Robert - 25 Sep 2005 09:19 GMT > : Elevated homocysteine causes oxidized LDL which causes > : atherosclerosis. > : > : http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/439520?src=search http://www.ochsnerjournal.org/ochsonline/?request=get-document&issn=1524-5012&vo lume=002&issue=04&page=0209
> : http://www.pubmedcentral.com/articlerender.fcgi?artid=199202 > : Page down to: Homocysteine and NF-?B activation [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > supplementing does decrease homocysteine. I would like to see such evidence. > So Frankie, if you have any evidence for the that, I would be grateful. That's a work in progress. The problem would have to distinguish origins or homocysteine elevations as those simply due to vitamin deficiency and those with a genetic deficiency of Vit B metabolism. A genetic point mutation may induce alterations that isn't lowered with supplementation.
Juhana Harju - 25 Sep 2005 09:30 GMT ::: Elevated homocysteine causes oxidized LDL which causes ::: atherosclerosis. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] : A genetic point mutation may induce alterations that isn't lowered : with supplementation. AFAIK, even those with genetically inherited hyperhomocysteinemia can reduce their homocysteine with vitamin B supplementation.
 Signature Juhana
Robert - 25 Sep 2005 19:02 GMT > ::: Elevated homocysteine causes oxidized LDL which causes > ::: atherosclerosis. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > AFAIK, even those with genetically inherited hyperhomocysteinemia can reduce > their homocysteine with vitamin B supplementation. Yes but maybe not the risk if comorbity of factors coexist in both risk and homocysteine. You might reduce one but not the other. It may not be the elevated homocysteine causing the risk but the genetic mutation is what I am saying. At face value that is what is being shown by those studies.
Studies do show an association of increased risk of those with an elevated homocysteine levels. Reduction of the homocysteine level does not reduce the risk. What does that tell you?
That would tell you that the test for the genetic marker is a better predictor of risk than homocysteine level because those people CAN lower their homocysteine with B vitamins.
Hello
Jim Chinnis - 25 Sep 2005 20:03 GMT "Robert" <RobertsSong@hotmail.com> wrote in part:
>> ::: Elevated homocysteine causes oxidized LDL which causes >> ::: atherosclerosis. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >Hello Agree.
My homocysteine being 12.5 says I have elevated risk of heart disease. Based on the available data, I have addressed that elevated risk with increased exercise, weight loss, fish oil, a statin, reduced carbs and increased unsaturated fats and protein. I follow a diet with a good bit of olive oil, nuts, wild fish, vegetables and fruit. I restrict my meats to grass-fed from local sources. I control my blood pressure with an ACE blocker. My HDL is now 70 and my LDL is 65.
There's good evidence for doing all the things I'm doing, in my opinion. But I just don't see thre evidence to support taking large doses of folate, B6, B12, trimethylglycine, or zinc.
So I have a genetic risk. I can't change that. But I'm addressing those things I can. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Bill - 25 Sep 2005 09:27 GMT 1. These all appear to be at least 4 years old.
2. They do not say there is a cause and effect relationship - only an association or a theory on how this might occur.
3. As Juhana mentioned, I believe there has been a study since then that has shown that lowering homocysteine does not reduce the number of MIs.
Bill
Elevated homocysteine causes oxidized LDL which causes atherosclerosis.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/439520?src=search http://www.ochsnerjournal.org/ochsonline/?request=get-document&issn=1524-5012&vo lume=002&issue=04&page=0209 http://www.pubmedcentral.com/articlerender.fcgi?artid=199202 Page down to: Homocysteine and NF-?B activation
Juhana Harju - 25 Sep 2005 09:37 GMT : 1. These all appear to be at least 4 years old. : [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : that has shown that lowering homocysteine does not reduce the number : of MIs. Lowering homocysteine has been shown to reduce some risk markers and even intima media thickness (which is quite promising) in some studies but I am not sure about CHD or total mortality. It looks like that supplemention can reduce MI but not stroke.
 Signature Juhana
Bill - 25 Sep 2005 10:29 GMT > : 1. These all appear to be at least 4 years old. > : [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > not sure about CHD or total mortality. It looks like that supplemention can > reduce MI but not stroke. Sorry, I had missrecalled :) your post.
Bill
just Ed - 25 Sep 2005 22:25 GMT > "Frankie" <birm47@gmail.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA haven't such studies used folic acid rather than the true methyl donor which has now become available from Merck?
Even using several mg/day of that is unlikely to alter the body methyl balance since the body's use is orders of magnitude more than this.
While we don't have data to show that methyl donors improve mortality, (lower Hcy is not enough) I think its an open question. By analogy to the vege diets which do work, this would fit nicely, if its right.
Ed
Jim Chinnis - 26 Sep 2005 00:04 GMT "just Ed" <just_ed53spam@yahoo.com> wrote in part:
>While we don't have data to show that methyl donors improve mortality, ...or increase it. We don't know. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
just Ed - 25 Sep 2005 11:32 GMT > Post - 1) > WW [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/99/1/178 > Page down to: Conclusions <SNIP the rest>
I'm interested in the statement "nicotinic acid ...raises homocysteine levels, due to a significant decrease in plasma concentrations of B6 and B12."
I don't see anything like that in circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/99/1/178
their ref for nicotinic acid raising homocysteine levels (#18) is Garg R, Malinow MR, Pettinger M, Hunninghake D. Treatment with niacin increases plasma homocyst(e)ine levels. Circulation. 1996;94(suppl I):I-457. which I found at https://enzy.com/abstracts/display.asp?id=1953 even suggests folic acid supplementation.
do you have any ref(s) to support that nicotinic acid decreases plasma B6 and B12?
Ed
Robert - 25 Sep 2005 19:22 GMT > > Post - 1) > > WW [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Ed There are many meds out there that can interfere with folate B12 metabolism resulting in what is called megaloblastoid rather than megaloblastic bone marrows. It interferes with metabolism so technically I don't think that would fall into actual deficiency although it is a form of functional deficiency. Some blood pressure meds, if you over-dose can give you a whopping anemia, as can dilantin and of course methotrexate. These are usually high dose as I remember one case of overdose with a diuretic blood pressure med. Not unusual which is why the I asked the question if all cases of elevated homocysteine of all causes cause a risk to heart disease or is it only those with a genetic mutation of folate metabolism. If it is the mutation only group then it doesn't matter with other causes for the homocysteine elevation such as simple vitamin deficiency. It might be a tread off of risk factors with elevated Lp(a) reduction risk vs the slight elevation of homocysteine risk with niacin. I would take the niacin.
just Ed - 25 Sep 2005 22:09 GMT > > > Post - 1) > > > WW [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > would fall into actual deficiency although it is a form of functional > deficiency. Are you saying that niacin is one 'med' that does this? or just that it might be possible to do so?
You mentioned folate and not B6 per Frankie's comment. Frankie says it causes "a significant decrease in plasma concentrations
of B6 and B12".
> Some blood pressure meds, if you over-dose can give you a whopping anemia, > as can dilantin and of course methotrexate. > These are usually high dose as I remember one case of overdose with a > diuretic blood pressure med. Interesting, but those are not niacin.
> Not unusual which is why the I asked the question if all cases of elevated > homocysteine of all causes cause a risk to heart disease or is it only those > with a genetic mutation of folate metabolism. > If it is the mutation only group then it doesn't matter with other causes > for the homocysteine elevation such as simple vitamin deficiency. > It might be a tread off of risk factors with elevated Lp(a) reduction risk trade-off(?)
> vs the slight elevation of homocysteine risk with niacin. I would take the > niacin. I might take it: from your comment http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/c233b793426cb812?hl=en& you don't seem to feel that liver enzyme surveillance is necessary. I suspect my PCP feels the same (he's ok with my current numbers anyway). I'm ok at the .7 g/day niacin level where I got no benefit, I'm not ready to self-dose at 2-3g/day. (I took it in the form of Inositol hexanicotinate)
I would want to know if there were data on how it causes increased Hcy. If niacin were to cause reductions in B6 and/or B12 per Frankie's comment I'd be somewhat reassured that I could counter that with sup.
I would expect that researchers noticing increased Hcy with niacin would quickly look at serum folate, B6 & B12 and find such a reduction. This did not happen. AFAIK, the mechanism is not known and no reduction has been documented.
Frankie's 'throw away the Zocor' posts in the "Red Wine & taking Zocor" thread make me wonder, but I'll be happy if he supports (or withdraws) his statement.
Pramesh Rutajit - 26 Sep 2005 02:53 GMT > I'm ok at the .7 g/day niacin level where I got no benefit, I'm not > ready to self-dose at 2-3g/day. (I took it in the form of Inositol > hexanicotinate) Has anyone gotten any benefit from inositol hexanicotinate that is similar to the effects of niacin? I haven't found any abstracts that show that it has the same effect AND I really would prefer to take the no-flush version. Until then, niacin does have a good effect on my HDL and LDL particle size.
 Signature Pramesh Rutajit - p2976221tongue@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply.
Pramesh Rutajit - 25 Sep 2005 22:43 GMT > Post - 1) > WW [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > Frankie Increasing niacin from 1000 to 2000 mg/day increased my homocysteine from about 9 to 14. It did lower my small particle LDL problem converting me to type A from type A/B (type B without niacin). On the other hand, I took the liberty of consuming 1000 mg/day of B6, 16 mg/day of folic acid, and 10 mg/day of B12, 200 mg/day of B2, 8 g/day of TMG, 4 g/day choline, 50 mg/day of zinc (with some coper) and getting a folic acid test and B12 along with the same blood work. I figured I could decrease doses as soon as I got my homocysteine under control but I haven't got there yet. Lab work: B12 was measured at greater than >2000 with a lab reference range of 211-911 and Folic Acid was measured at greater than >24.0 with a lab reference range of 3.4 to 5.4. On a postive note hs-CRP is always testing at 0.23 or less.
In spite of all that, homocysteine remains high. I've lowered B6 down to 400 mg/day, folic acid down to 10 mg/day, B12 lown to 5000 mg/day, and TMG to 6 g/day since they didn't seem to be doing much to lower homocysteine and I appeared to be saturating the B12 and folic acid pathways. I'm waiting for homocysteine test results from adding 5 g/day of creatine.
I did lower niacin from 2000 mg/day to 1500 mg/day to see if I could bring the homocysteine down while maintaining type A LDL but it turns out I need at least 2000 mg/day of niacin to keep my LDL particle size at type A and if I didn't have a homocysteine problem would probably get better results with more than 2000 mg/day.
Other choices?
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Jim Chinnis - 26 Sep 2005 00:35 GMT Pramesh Rutajit <p2976221tongue@newsguy.com> wrote in part:
>Increasing niacin from 1000 to 2000 mg/day increased my homocysteine from >about 9 to 14. It did lower my small particle LDL problem converting me to [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Other choices? You realize that your are taking quite a few drugs (vitamins and minerals are drugs when used in non-dietary amounts) to attack what may turn out to be a marker of certain genes and not causally related to anything bad you care about?
As to type A LDL particle distribution, there is some evidence that reducing carbohydrate in the diet, increasing monounsaturated fat, and taking fish oil or docosahexaenoic (DHA) acid may improve the distribution. Some people benefit from increasing saturated fat. You might want to experiment with different distributions of saturated, monounsaturated, and polyunsaturated fats, since the effects are probably under strong genetic control. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Pramesh Rutajit - 26 Sep 2005 03:12 GMT > Pramesh Rutajit <p2976221tongue@newsguy.com> wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > under strong genetic control. -- > Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA Thanks. I consume little polyunsaturate fat, have eliminate virtually all trans-fats, use extra virgin olive oil and some butter (with salt added), take 4 of the LEF product daily (http://lef.org/newshop/items/item00820.html) which gives me 1.4 g/day of EPA and 1.0 g/day of DHA, and eat salmon 2-4 times a week. I have cut back some on meat and have moved to eating more fish and fowl and less beef and pork. Except when eating at restaurant, most of the meat I eat is fresh with no additives except some ham from time to time. As to reducing carbs, I have eliminated white rice (wild rice 1-2 times a month) and white bread (wheat occasionally made with honey), all candy and sugar items, avoid anything with sugar added like high fructose corn syrup, etc. In other words, "bad" carbs have been cut back quite a bit. I do eat more fruit, several servings a day, and fruit juices that are the real deal like pomegranate, concord grape, blueberry, cranberry, etc. I'm not keen on going on an Akins diet because I think complex carbs are a good thing. What I'm left with is weight reduction which is ongoing, and exercising more which has increased but needs improvement.
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