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Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / October 2008Medical Tourism
Are we ready for medical tourism - the outsourcing of health care? There is a rapid growth industry of medical tourism and it is not just for alternative therapies or for the uninsured. A typical cardiac surgery in the USA would average over $50,000 that same surgery including round trip airfare, accomodations and a lengthier (and more personal) recovery averages $10,000 in Bombay with comparable success rates, standards and safety. Medical tourists are traveling to India, Thailand, the East Indies, South America and the Middle East including Saudi Arabia for medical, dental and surgical procedures. Elective procedures such as rhinoplasty, liposuction, breast augmentation, orthodontics, LASIK are popular; but, insurance packages are being marketed as well for cardiac bypass surgery, transplants and many other treatments. Can you imagine a world where your insurance company suggests you take a trip to Thailand? What about public assistance programs, maybe Medicaid and Medicare should ship people to Chennai. How about long term care? Shall we send our elderly to nursing homes in Mexico or Brazil? -elgoog, "Eppur si muove (and yet it moves)" - Galileo Galilei "The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled." - Plutarch ref. http://www.medical-tourist.org/ http://www.medicaltourismindia.com/ > Are we ready for medical tourism - the outsourcing of health care? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > personal) recovery averages $10,000 in Bombay with comparable success > rates, standards and safety. that is ...if you don't get something like malaria or Hep C first!! > Medical tourists are traveling to India, Thailand, the East Indies, > South America and the Middle East including Saudi Arabia for medical, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Can you imagine a world where your insurance company suggests you take > a trip to Thailand? your insurance company won't!!! anyone going out of the US is paying cash seriously...I wouldn't take my DOG to Bombay for surgery!! my h.o. only > What about public assistance programs, maybe Medicaid and Medicare > should ship people to Chennai. How about long term care? Shall we send [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > http://www.medical-tourist.org/ > http://www.medicaltourismindia.com/ <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > Are we ready for medical tourism - the outsourcing of health care? > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > my h.o. only Your humble opinion is just so much racism. Unless of course, you have hospital stats to back up your bigotry. Zee > > What about public assistance programs, maybe Medicaid and Medicare > > should ship people to Chennai. How about long term care? Shall we send [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://www.medical-tourist.org/ > > http://www.medicaltourismindia.com/ > <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> > Are we ready for medical tourism - the outsourcing of health care? [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Zee Hardly racism or bigotry to "wonder" about having surgery in a third world country...which India is now...if a surgeon trained in Bombay came HERE to operate it would be a different situation all together and no...no stats...just what I am reading in professional journals.. go ahead..Zee..have your open heart on the moon >> > What about public assistance programs, maybe Medicaid and Medicare >> > should ship people to Chennai. How about long term care? Shall we [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> > http://www.medical-tourist.org/ >> > http://www.medicaltourismindia.com/ <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > Are we ready for medical tourism - the outsourcing of health care? > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > your insurance company won't!!! Mine won't, but how long will it be before they do? Here is an insurance company that does, BUPA International, http://bupa-intl.com/ It's already happening and a quick survey of Medical Tourism sites reveals that many are offering packages to the insured and uninsured. > anyone going out of the US is paying cash At this time, it is very unlikely that US insurers are offering the option of medical tourism. You would have to go out of your way to find insurance with international coverage. > seriously...I wouldn't take my DOG to Bombay for surgery!! Dogs aren't well appreciated in Bombay anyway. In some cases, the surgeon you have in Bombay, might be the same surgeon you had in L.A. a year ago. What's more, in the U.S. the hospital staff to patient ratio is horrendous, and cleaning crews have been drastically cut. From what I hear Bombay hospitals are cleaner and better staffed. The medical tourism industry is growing and they are offering facilities and patient care to envy. > my h.o. only > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > http://www.medical-tourist.org/ > > http://www.medicaltourismindia.com/ >At this time, it is very unlikely that US insurers are offering the >option of medical tourism. You would have to go out of your way to find >insurance with international coverage. Many insurance companies offer out of area coverage. Bombay qualifies. The Mail Handlers Benefit Plan, available to many government employees, says "Overseas Covered Medical Expenses - Reimbursable at the PPO benefit level You pay 10%". >In some cases, the surgeon you have in Bombay, might be the same >surgeon you had in L.A. a year ago. What's more, in the U.S. the >hospital staff to patient ratio is horrendous, and cleaning crews have >been drastically cut. From what I hear Bombay hospitals are cleaner and >better staffed. The medical tourism industry is growing and they are >offering facilities and patient care to envy. There was an article about medical tourism on the radio earlier this year. It basically agreed with what you said - facilities set up foreign patients are often superb (and not what most residents of the county would get). -- Jack Hamilton Sacramento, California -- <> Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit. <> François VI, duc de La Rochefoucauld > >At this time, it is very unlikely that US insurers are offering the > >option of medical tourism. You would have to go out of your way to find [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > <> Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit. > <> François VI, duc de La Rochefoucauld I realize, I speak heresy, but I believe you. We have all been told that we have the best medical system in the world, providing the best doctors, best care and highest standards in the world. But, I have seen hospitals in europe and experienced health care in europe that was every bit as good, and in some ways better. We have seen that some effective treatments come to the USA last, in part because of our stringent safety and testing requirements - FDA regulations. And, then there are the hospital staff reductions, the abuse of nurses and support staff, the shortened hospital stays due to insurance all imposed here in the USA. It seems very possible to me that the medical tourist might actually receive better, more humane treatment - and would be more likely to be treated as a person, than a cow being pushed through a line. </rant> BTW love your sig quote. -elgoog, my mistakes enable me to learn. "Sto ancora imparando (I am still learning)" - Michelangelo >In some cases, the surgeon you have in Bombay, might be the same >surgeon you had in L.A. a year ago. What's more, in the U.S. the >hospital staff to patient ratio is horrendous, and cleaning crews have >been drastically cut. From what I hear Bombay hospitals are cleaner and >better staffed. The medical tourism industry is growing and they are >offering facilities and patient care to envy. Cleaner? Bombay is a city of humidity and dust, everywhere. Better staffed? You better be prepared to hire your own nurses, at least two ayahs, if you want around the clock care once you are out of ICU. Also, if you need medication, including IVs, you better have someone available to take the doctor's prescription down to the hospital pharmacy to get it filled and bring it back. The doctors are just as good (and just as bad) as they are here. The hospitals range from top-of-the-line/state-of-the-art to you-got-to-be-kidding. Even so, the services we would take for granted here just aren't there yet. > >In some cases, the surgeon you have in Bombay, might be the same > >surgeon you had in L.A. a year ago. What's more, in the U.S. the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > you-got-to-be-kidding. Even so, the services we would take for granted > here just aren't there yet. Agreed that the standard of living in Bombay is not like here. I take it you speak of personal experience? Have you also toured the new facilities built specifically to cater to the burgeoning Medical Tourism industry? I have not and do not know whether it lives up to the hype - but, what has been reported is most favorable. -elgoog >> On 28 Apr 2005 12:38:38 -0700, "elgoog" > <bjdefend-newsgroups@yahoo.com> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > whether it lives up to the hype - but, what has been reported is most > favorable. I concur with elgoog. From the reports I have read, the hosptials are very good. The concerns raised here (having to take orders for IVs to the pharmacy, e.g.) don't apply to these hospitals (although they do apply to other hospitals in India). jeff > -elgoog >> Agreed that the standard of living in Bombay is not like here. I take >> it you speak of personal experience? I have been to Bombay many times and still keep a flat there (My plan B for retirement). I have not had to use the hospitals there, but friends and family have. I have seen how frustrating and inefficient the system is there. >> Have you also toured the new facilities built specifically to cater to >> the burgeoning Medical Tourism industry? I have not and do not know [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >pharmacy, e.g.) don't apply to these hospitals (although they do apply to >other hospitals in India). I have not been to any of these new hospitals specializing in medical tourism. I would hope, and really expect, that they would their service levels would be in line with European and North American hospitals if they expect to cater to anyone other than NRIs. > >> Agreed that the standard of living in Bombay is not like here. I take > >> it you speak of personal experience? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >I concur with elgoog. From the reports I have read, the hosptials are very > >good. The concerns raised here (having to take orders for IVs to the > >pharmacy, e.g.) don't apply to these hospitals (although they do apply to > >other hospitals in India). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > levels would be in line with European and North American hospitals if > they expect to cater to anyone other than NRIs. It is an interesting thought though, that I have yet to see addressed anywhere yet: cultural differences that may cause conflict/tension. I think that medical tourism is bound to grow, and may even be embraced by the health care market of consumers, insurance and public assistance. I think its coming. Doctors in America may find themselves shocked just as is happening now to other professions, and to the steel workers and factory workers before that. Cultural differences have caused and do cause problems in business and politics. I wonder what kind of misunderstandings might occur in medical tourism? Our (USA) medical system began a cycle of abuse against nurses, interns and medical personnel nearly a half a century ago. We provided every disincentive imagineable to chase technicians and nurses away, and then we dumped cheap replacement labor on them by importing from asia and south america. Subsequently, we created lesser degrees and licenses to hire cheaper less educated individuals for patient care. All of which has led us to a health care infrastructure that is wobbling at the knees and ready to break. Staff shortages, overworked individuals, housekeeping cuts lead to medical mistakes (shhh, don't talk about it), inaccessability and unsanitary conditions. You've seen the horror stories that local news casts do on eateries, try surgical centers and patient care centers if you really want to have your stomach turn. All the while, doctors and physicians take the blame, get more and more disenchanted and imprisoned within the confines of the "system." Ten years from now, they will be losing their jobs to doctors overseas. > > >> Agreed that the standard of living in Bombay is not like here. I > take [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > imprisoned within the confines of the "system." Ten years from now, > they will be losing their jobs to doctors overseas. Someone tried to help me I was in pain and they did not know my name. Yet they touched me and helped me up close as if they some knew how. Nurses are under my protection... As are doctors...My sister is an MD. Her husband a virologist. If you touch me I trust you. Prescribe only and I¹ll see you in hades. Bill  SignatureZone 5 S Jersey USA Shade garden in a Jungle Japanese manner Vision problems? http://www.ocutech.com/ we own two. "oeuf tôt pique " Lover 39.615557 N, 75.04088 W > > > >> Agreed that the standard of living in Bombay is not like here. I > > take [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > Vision problems? http://www.ocutech.com/ we own two. > "oeuf tôt pique " Lover 39.615557 N, 75.04088 W Beautiful. > In some cases, the surgeon you have in Bombay, might be the same > surgeon you had in L.A. a year ago. Yeah, just think, you might end up with Dr. Jayant M. Patel, schooled in India, medical license restrictions in Oregon, now under investigation in Australia. Seems he has a difficult time knowing where to snip'n'sew along with the ensuing challenges of keeping patients alive. Had similar problems in Oregon. <http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-10/111 3758427154070.xml&storylist=orlocal> > The Oregon Board of Medical Examiners restricted his practice in 2000 > following a review of 79 problem cases, including a man whose colostomy was > performed backward, blocking his gastrointestinal system. snip > The 59-year-old man whose colostomy was reversed had gone into surgery for a > hernia. Another male patient, 65, underwent surgery for cancer of the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the urethra, a tube leading out of the bladder. Three more operations were > required to correct the problem. Signature__________ "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956) >> In some cases, the surgeon you have in Bombay, might be the same >> surgeon you had in L.A. a year ago. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >along with the ensuing challenges of keeping patients alive. Had similar >problems in Oregon. Hard to see what this proves - perhaps that it's not a good idea to get medical care in Oregon? ><http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-10/111 >3758427154070.xml&storylist=orlocal> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> the urethra, a tube leading out of the bladder. Three more operations were >> required to correct the problem. -- Jack Hamilton Sacramento, California -- <> Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit. <> François VI, duc de La Rochefoucauld > >> In some cases, the surgeon you have in Bombay, might be the same > >> surgeon you had in L.A. a year ago. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Hard to see what this proves - perhaps that it's not a good idea to get > medical care in Oregon? Look at the statement I was responding to: > >> In some cases, the surgeon you have in Bombay, might be the same > >> surgeon you had in L.A. a year ago. The doc you end up with in some other country may be the very same guy who had his license restricted/revoked elsewhere. The hiring folks at the Australia hospital should have caught the license restriction but didn't - at least according to the article. One travels across the world for an operation with a doc they don't have any history with - could be risky. At least in my experience the docs who have worked on me came recommended by my regular docs. Signature__________ "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956) > > >> In some cases, the surgeon you have in Bombay, might be the same > > >> surgeon you had in L.A. a year ago. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > The doc you end up with in some other country may be the very same guy > who had his license restricted/revoked elsewhere. The hiring folks at > the Australia hospital should have caught the license restriction but > didn't - at least according to the article. > > One travels across the world for an operation with a doc they don't have > any history with - could be risky. At least in my experience the docs > who have worked on me came recommended by my regular docs. <<snip sig quote>> Couple of points, a) the Patel story was germane to the subject, b) if you want to know if a doctor referral is any good, you're going to have to do some research. Doctors frequently have practice relationships (its business). Doctors frequently have social relationships with other doctors (they're friends). Doctors frequently don't know the worst about each other (rivalry guards secrets). Doctors are reluctant to openly criticize other doctors due to self preservation and liability. References from bad doctors, who exercise bad judgement would tend to be bad references. References from good doctors could be based on many factors you don't know and its tough to distinguish. If your doctor provides a good opinion of another doctor, don't disrespect him, but ask some questions. If possible, speak with others who are more likely to be disinterested, nurses, technicians, patients and others. > > In some cases, the surgeon you have in Bombay, might be the same > > surgeon you had in L.A. a year ago. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > along with the ensuing challenges of keeping patients alive. Had similar > problems in Oregon. <http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-10/111 > 3758427154070.xml&storylist=orlocal> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Helen Brooks, 79, of Corvallis had surgery for diverticulitis, an intestinal > > inflammation. But after Patel accidentally cut her ureter the tube leading > > from the kidney to the bladder three more operations were needed to repair > > the damage before Brooks eventually lost her left kidney. > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > by a downright moron." > H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956) Do you have personal experience with "Dr." Jayant M. Patel? That is, of course, a terrifying story. What amazes me is the number of patients I speak to who think their doctor is the best. Wherever you go all over the country, people speak of their doc as the best so-and-so in the country. You probably have the "best" cardiologist right where you live. And, somebody else will tell us the best is in NY or Canada. Patient's experiences and judgements about good doctors are notoriously unreliable. OTOH, they are usually dead-on when it's about bad doctors. The point is that most patients tend to suspend their common judgement when they walk in the door and stick with a bad doctor much longer than they should. I wonder how doctors will react as the outsourcing of health care continues to grow? I don't know if you are more likely to be cut up by a Medical Tourism hack than you are by one in Oregon, but the possibility exists no matter where you go. -elgoog Larger Snip > What amazes me is the number of patients I speak to who think their > doctor is the best. Wherever you go all over the country, people speak [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > -elgoog 50 % of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class. Bill SignatureZone 5 S Jersey USA Shade garden in a Jungle Japanese manner Vision problems? http://www.ocutech.com/ we own two. 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