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Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / April 2005

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New food pyramid coming

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Jeff - 19 Apr 2005 13:08 GMT
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-fit-food-pyramid,0,6398873.stor
y?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines


Government to Unveil New Food Pyramid

By LIBBY QUAID
Associated Press Writer

April 19, 2005, 7:46 AM EDT

WASHINGTON -- A makeover for the food pyramid -- that triangle-shaped guide
to better eating -- might renew interest in healthy habits, but officials
say it likely will take time to make a difference for America's growing
girth.

"We didn't get to be obese overnight. We're not going to reverse it
overnight," said Eric Hentges, the Agriculture Department official who is
overseeing the new pyramid.

After months of revision, a new symbol for healthy habits was being
introduced Tuesday. The image has been kept under wraps, but the real
question is whether Americans -- two out of three of whom are overweight if
not obese -- will follow the new guide no matter what its shape.

People have steadily grown fatter since the food pyramid debuted in 1992. A
report last month in The New England Journal of Medicine contended that
obesity, particularly in children, was fueling a reversal in life
expectancy, shaving four to nine months off the average life span.

The new guide is just one element of a system aimed at making people slimmer
and healthier, said Hentges, director of the Center for Nutrition Policy and
Promotion. Also in store are Internet tools to help follow the new
recommendations, as well as tools to help educators and nutritionists spread
the word.

"Part of the problem previously was that we had this one symbol, this one
pyramid, and it was one size fits all," Hentges told agriculture reporters
last week. "Or it was a misinterpretation. In the case of grain servings, it
said six to 11 servings. Well, if you're supposed to be eating 1,600
calories, you never did get to choose these 11 servings of grain.

"Who knows what a serving is?" Hentges added. "It's whatever I put on my
plate. The servings differ for you than for your spouse, maybe."

This time, to make its advice more understandable, the government will
switch to cups, ounces and other household measures. The switch was
recommended in a 70-page booklet, "Dietary Guidelines for Americans 2005,"
that was developed by a panel of scientists and doctors and released in
January.

The guidelines, which were the basis for revising the pyramid, include
eating 2 cups of fruit and 2 1/2 cups of vegetables a day; eating 3 ounces
of whole-grain foods a day and drinking 3 cups of fat-free or lowfat milk a
day. The government also advises exercising at least 30 minutes a day to
reduce the risk of chronic disease, even more to prevent weight gain or
maintain weight loss.

In all, there were 23 general recommendations and 18 suggestions for older
people, children and other special populations.

That's too much to cram into a symbol that is supposed to be clipped out and
stuck to the refrigerator, Hentges said.

The Agriculture Department will offer Web pages that let people appraise
their diet and exercise habits. Such a tool has already been available
through the agency's Web site; the Interactive Healthy Eating Index has a
notice on its home page that it will soon be updated.

Even if the symbol and online tools don't motivate people to change their
habits, they'll still have some healthier choices. Food companies have been
removing trans fats from their products and adding whole grains because of
the government guidance.

"If you get the industry involved and make them feel that they're doing a
good thing and that they're getting credit for doing a good thing, they'll
do it. They'll change their product," said K. Dun Gifford, president of
Oldways Preservation Trust, a Boston-based think tank that specializes in
food issues.

Critics have raised questions about the public relations agency hired to
help create the new version of the pyramid. The firm, Porter Novelli, has
food companies as clients, but both Agriculture Department and Porter
Novelli officials have said the firm's industry work is handled separately
and there would be no conflict of interest.

Hentges said his staff of scientists, economists and nutritionists isn't
equipped to promote its new approach. If it's not marketed effectively, he
said, "then we're not going to be able to get this behavior change or
improve anything for Americans."

On the Net:

Agriculture Department: http://www.usda.gov
Copyright 2005 Newsday Inc.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 19 Apr 2005 14:14 GMT
> http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-fit-food-pyramid,0,6398873.stor
y?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

>
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> of whole-grain foods a day and drinking 3 cups of fat-free or lowfat milk a
> day.

It is unwise to mix units when quantifying food.

> The government also advises exercising at least 30 minutes a day to
> reduce the risk of chronic disease, even more to prevent weight gain or
> maintain weight loss.

"Exercise is neither necessary nor sufficient for weight loss when
eating is excessive."

> In all, there were 23 general recommendations and 18 suggestions for older
> people, children and other special populations.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> removing trans fats from their products and adding whole grains because of
> the government guidance.

"It is not the shape of the food pyramid but rather the **weight** of
the food pyramid that has been driving the obesity epidemic."

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V113154DA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
Jeff - 19 Apr 2005 14:31 GMT
(...)

>> The guidelines, which were the basis for revising the pyramid, include
>> eating 2 cups of fruit and 2 1/2 cups of vegetables a day; eating 3
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> It is unwise to mix units when quantifying food.

Which was one reason for revising the pyramid.

>> The government also advises exercising at least 30 minutes a day to
>> reduce the risk of chronic disease, even more to prevent weight gain or
>> maintain weight loss.
>
> "Exercise is neither necessary nor sufficient for weight loss when
> eating is excessive."

Whom are you quoting?

However, excercise does help people lose weight and improve cardiac fitness.

>> In all, there were 23 general recommendations and 18 suggestions for
>> older
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> "It is not the shape of the food pyramid but rather the **weight** of
> the food pyramid that has been driving the obesity epidemic."

Whom are you quoting?

Jeff

> At His service,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
> (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 19 Apr 2005 14:43 GMT
"All will be revealed to those who choose to spend eternity with God."

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V113154DA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
> > (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
> > (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
Jeff - 19 Apr 2005 15:01 GMT
> "All will be revealed to those who choose to spend eternity with God."

Yeah, but the goal of medicine is to increase the time we spend on Earth.
And increase the quality of that time.

A good diet and excercise will help with that effort.

Jeff

> At His service,
>
[quoted text clipped - 90 lines]
>> > (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
>> > (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 
elgoog - 19 Apr 2005 15:10 GMT
> > "All will be revealed to those who choose to spend eternity with God."
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Jeff

Andy seems to believe that those that disagree with him, disagree with
God. It is his defense against not knowing. The pursuit of knowledge on
earth is part of our purpose.
Jeff - 19 Apr 2005 15:16 GMT
>> > "All will be revealed to those who choose to spend eternity with
> God."
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> God. It is his defense against not knowing. The pursuit of knowledge on
> earth is part of our purpose.

Actually, I don't know what the purpose of life is. But I beleive anything
that helps us understand God's  glory is part of His purpose, so I concur.

Jeff
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 19 Apr 2005 16:55 GMT
> > "All will be revealed to those who choose to spend eternity with God."
>
> Yeah,

Glad you agree.

> but the goal of medicine is to increase the time we spend on Earth.
> And increase the quality of that time.

The latter goal is the wiser of the two goals and is achievable with the
right choice.  The former goal is achievable only with God's blessing.

> A good diet and excercise will help with that effort.

Not if the goal of permanent weight loss in the setting of obesity is
not achieved.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V113154DA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
Don Kirkman - 19 Apr 2005 21:33 GMT
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
article <42652A0A.28DC80A8@heartmdphd.com>:

>> > "All will be revealed to those who choose to spend eternity with God."

>> Yeah,

>Glad you agree.

>> but the goal of medicine is to increase the time we spend on Earth.
>> And increase the quality of that time.

>The latter goal is the wiser of the two goals and is achievable with the
>right choice.  The former goal is achievable only with God's blessing.

>> A good diet and excercise will help with that effort.

>Not if the goal of permanent weight loss in the setting of obesity is
>not achieved.

So we don't need to consider the perhaps forty to sixty percent or so
who are not obese?  You're a hard taskmaster.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 19 Apr 2005 23:30 GMT
> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
> article <42652A0A.28DC80A8@heartmdphd.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> So we don't need to consider the perhaps forty to sixty percent or so
> who are not obese?  You're a hard taskmaster.

Even among the 40% who are not obese, a sizeable portion are also
overweight.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V113154DA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
Don Kirkman - 21 Apr 2005 00:39 GMT
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
article <4265868E.318AC386@heartmdphd.com>:

>> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
>> article <42652A0A.28DC80A8@heartmdphd.com>:

[. . .]

>> >> but the goal of medicine is to increase the time we spend on Earth.
>> >> And increase the quality of that time.

>> >The latter goal is the wiser of the two goals and is achievable with the
>> >right choice.  The former goal is achievable only with God's blessing.
>> >> A good diet and excercise will help with that effort.

>> >Not if the goal of permanent weight loss in the setting of obesity is
>> >not achieved.

>> So we don't need to consider the perhaps forty to sixty percent or so
>> who are not obese?  You're a hard taskmaster.

>Even among the 40% who are not obese, a sizeable portion are also
>overweight.

So that's a yes, we do need to consider those who are not obese as
well, as I suggested?
Bob (this one) - 19 Apr 2005 21:10 GMT
> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>
>> It is unwise to mix units when quantifying food.

This, of course is nonsense as any recipe will attest.

Bob
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 19 Apr 2005 23:30 GMT
> > (...)
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> This, of course is nonsense as any recipe will attest.

Collecting recipes would be a unwise hobby for someone trying to lose
weight.


At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V113154DA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
elgoog - 20 Apr 2005 03:35 GMT
> > > (...)
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Collecting recipes would be a unwise hobby for someone trying to lose
> weight.

Poppycock! Neither recipes, nor proper food preparation are to blame
for people being overweight.
Bob (this one) - 20 Apr 2005 06:43 GMT
>>>>(...)
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Poppycock! Neither recipes, nor proper food preparation are to blame
> for people being overweight.

Chung has stated more than once, in different words, that recipes aren't
necessary and that food shouldn't occupy any more thought than taking on
fuel. He denies any value to the eons of sharing and community that the
table has behind it. He wishes away the family-feeling that dining can
include.

He accuses others of being food-obsessed all the while making these
proclamations about how worthless food is except as mere sustenance. The
quality of life and the succor that offering and receiving sustenance
can bring are of no import to him, if his words are to be believed. Food
should bring no pleasure, he says. Hunger should be a constant
companion, he says. All of human history disagrees.

In any event, his comments above are typically diversionary. The fact of
the matter is that in common usage, people look at different foods in
different units. Food is purchased in different units (by count, by
volume, by weight...), prepared in different units and served in
different units. There's no good reason not to mix units when
quantifying food.

For people trying to lose weight, recipes are a very good place to look.
Reduction of caloric intake versus usage being the only way to lose
weight, recipes that foster that are good things to have. Satisfaction
and satiety aren't only physiological phenomena, but also derive from
many other aspects of food. The Chinese learned and quantified a long
time ago that food should appeal to many senses. It should look good,
smell good, taste good, feel good in the mouth, and sound good when
appropriate. Recipes insure that you can duplicate this dish again.
They're merely formulae.

Pastorio
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 20 Apr 2005 12:35 GMT
Lord Jesus teaches From Luke 12:

29And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry
about it. 30For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your
Father knows that you need them.

May God add His blessings to the writing of His Word here in SMC.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D5217EA
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

> >>>>(...)
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> Pastorio
elgoog - 20 Apr 2005 13:36 GMT
> >>>>(...)
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> proclamations about how worthless food is except as mere sustenance. The
> quality of life and the succor that offering and receiving sustenance

> can bring are of no import to him, if his words are to be believed. Food
> should bring no pleasure, he says. Hunger should be a constant
> companion, he says. All of human history disagrees.
>
> In any event, his comments above are typically diversionary. The fact of
> the matter is that in common usage, people look at different foods in

> different units. Food is purchased in different units (by count, by
> volume, by weight...), prepared in different units and served in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> weight, recipes that foster that are good things to have. Satisfaction
> and satiety aren't only physiological phenomena, but also derive from

> many other aspects of food. The Chinese learned and quantified a long

> time ago that food should appeal to many senses. It should look good,

> smell good, taste good, feel good in the mouth, and sound good when
> appropriate. Recipes insure that you can duplicate this dish again.
> They're merely formulae.
>
> Pastorio

You speak with clarity. Thank you for all the good posts.
William Wagner - 20 Apr 2005 14:39 GMT
I

> >  The Chinese learned and quantified a long
> > time ago that food should appeal to many senses. It should look good,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >
> > Pastorio

 The Chinese are an amazing culture.  Every wonder why the were not
real strong in Biological science?

Because they always wondered what it would taste like.

A joke from the past.

Bill

Signature

Zone 5 S Jersey USA Shade garden in a Japanese manner
Vision problems? http://www.ocutech.com/ we own two.
Tell folks where to get your files FREE at http://www.DropLoad.com
"oeuf tôt pique " Lover  

Bob (this one) - 20 Apr 2005 17:11 GMT
>>> The Chinese learned and quantified a long
>>>time ago that food should appeal to many senses. It should look good,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> A joke from the past.

Yeah. A standard foodservice joke...

But the funny thing is that the Chinese were first with a lot of what
came later to western science. Look into anatomy studies, circulatory
system, etc. That their notions of what to do about dysfunctions
developed into different directions is interesting and worthy of study
and reflection.

Pastorio
William Wagner - 20 Apr 2005 17:32 GMT
> >>> The Chinese learned and quantified a long
> >>>time ago that food should appeal to many senses. It should look good,
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Pastorio

 I¹m with you.  Stupid jokes just happen to make me laugh.  A flaw no
doubt.  IŒve studied meridian and the flow of chi for about 30 years
now.   So What.  Still had a quad bypass.  Still like stupidity.  Still
like expertise.  Go figure!

Bill

Signature

Zone 5 S Jersey USA Shade garden in a Japanese manner
Vision problems? http://www.ocutech.com/ we own two.
Tell folks where to get your files FREE at http://www.DropLoad.com
"oeuf tôt pique " Lover  

GaryG - 23 Apr 2005 22:57 GMT
> >>> The Chinese learned and quantified a long
> >>>time ago that food should appeal to many senses. It should look good,
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> developed into different directions is interesting and worthy of study
> and reflection.

Hmmmm...I don't think so, Bob.  Their culture discovered many things, but
they were quite supersituous about the human body.  Specifically, their
cultural beliefs considered autopsies to be a form of desecration.  Thus,
most of their chi-based medical knowledge was based on pure speculation
about internal organs and functions without reference to actual studies of
same.  They even inferred some internal organs that do not exist, and made
claims for the functioning of others that have no basis in fact.

GG

> Pastorio
Bob (this one) - 24 Apr 2005 06:13 GMT
>>>>>The Chinese learned and quantified a long
>>>>>time ago that food should appeal to many senses. It should look good,
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> same.  They even inferred some internal organs that do not exist, and made
> claims for the functioning of others that have no basis in fact.

<G> Unlike the western "humours" and such. Oil of Elders. Many other bad
ideas that have long since been rejected. But leeches are back.

Just like all science, ideas were tried and some survived after
empirical examination. Others fell by the wayside. The sheer fact of
there being so many people in China implies that some of their medical
ideas would seem to have merit. And if you look at India next door also
with medical traditions different than western medicine and combine the
total of the two populations, they represent something around 1/3 of all
living people. Either people need less medicine than is generally
thought or there are some good ideas out there not in favored currency
in the west.

Have you ever read the speech that Douglas Adams gave wherein he
discussed feng shui? <http://www.biota.org/people/douglasadams/>
"Is there an Artificial God?"
Douglas Adams' speech at Digital Biota 2, Cambridge U.K.
September 1998

It's a brilliant read about some central issues to the human experience.
About 2/3 of the way through, he says:

"This is very speculative; I’m really going out on a limb here, because
it’s something I know nothing about whatsoever, so think of this more as
a thought experiment than a real explanation of something. I want to
talk about Feng Shui, which is something I know very little about, but
there’s been a lot of talk about it recently in terms of figuring out
how a building should be designed, built, situated, decorated and so on.
Apparently, we need to think about the building being inhabited by
dragons and look at it in terms of how a dragon would move around it.
So, if a dragon wouldn’t be happy in the house, you have to put a red
fish bowl here or a window there. This sounds like complete and utter
nonsense, because anything involving dragons must be nonsense—there
aren’t any dragons, so any theory based on how dragons behave is
nonsense. What are these silly people doing, imagining that dragons can
tell you how to build your house? Nevertheless, it occurs to me if you
disregard for a moment the explanation that’s actually offered for it,
it may be there is something interesting going on that goes like this:
we all know from buildings that we’ve lived in, worked in, been in or
stayed in, that some are more comfortable, more pleasant and more
agreeable to live in than others. We haven’t had a real way of
quantifying this, but in this century we’ve had an awful lot of
architects who think they know how to do it, so we’ve had the horrible
idea of the house as a machine for living in, we’ve had Mies van der Roe
and others putting up glass stumps and strangely shaped things that are
supposed to form some theory or other. It’s all carefully engineered,
but nonetheless, their buildings are not actually very nice to live in.
An awful lot of theory has been poured into this, but if you sit and
work with an architect (and I’ve been through that stressful time, as
I’m sure a lot of people have) then when you are trying to figure out
how a room should work you’re trying to integrate all kinds of things
about lighting, about angles, about how people move and how people
live—and an awful lot of other things you don’t know about that get left
out. You don’t know what importance to attach to one thing or another;
you’re trying to, very consciously, figure out something when you
haven’t really got much of a clue, but there’s this theory and that
theory, this bit of engineering practice and that bit of architectural
practice; you don’t really know what to make of them. Compare that to
somebody who tosses a cricket ball at you. You can sit and watch it and
say, ‘It’s going at 17 degrees’; start to work it out on paper, do some
calculus, etc. and about a week after the ball’s whizzed past you, you
may have figured out where it’s going to be and how to catch it. On the
other hand, you can simply put your hand out and let the ball drop into
it, because we have all kinds of faculties built into us, just below the
conscious level, able to do all kinds of complex integrations of all
kinds of complex phenomena which therefore enables us to say, ‘Oh look,
there’s a ball coming; catch it!’

"What I’m suggesting is that Feng Shui and an awful lot of other things
are precisely of that kind of problem. There are all sorts of things we
know how to do, but don’t necessarily know what we do, we just do them.
Go back to the issue of how you figure out how a room or a house should
be designed and instead of going through all the business of trying to
work out the angles and trying to digest which genuine architectural
principles you may want to take out of what may be a passing
architectural fad, just ask yourself, ‘how would a dragon live here?’ We
are used to thinking in terms of organic creatures; an organic creature
may consist of an enormous complexity of all sorts of different
variables that are beyond our ability to resolve but we know how organic
creatures live. We’ve never seen a dragon but we’ve all got an idea of
what a dragon is like, so we can say, ‘Well if a dragon went through
here, he’d get stuck just here and a little bit cross over there because
he couldn’t see that and he’d wave his tail and knock that vase over’.
You figure out how the dragon’s going to be happy here and lo and
behold! you’ve suddenly got a place that makes sense for other organic
creatures, such as ourselves, to live in."

Pastorio
GaryG - 24 Apr 2005 07:07 GMT
> >>>>>The Chinese learned and quantified a long
> >>>>>time ago that food should appeal to many senses. It should look good,
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> thought or there are some good ideas out there not in favored currency
> in the west.

There's a lot of people in China and India (and Africa, too), but it's
mostly due to their high birthrate, not their medical traditions.  A more
instructive measure is average lifespan.

In the last few hundred years, Western medicine has cured, or greatly
ameliorated polio, smallpox, malaria, diabetes, much heart disease, and many
cancers, and given us a deep understanding of how the body functions down to
the genetic and biochemical levels.  If Traditional Chinese Medicine, or
Ayurvedic Medicine, or African Traditional Medicine have given us anything
remotely close to these cures and insights...I'm unaware of them.

GG

> Have you ever read the speech that Douglas Adams gave wherein he
> discussed feng shui? <http://www.biota.org/people/douglasadams/>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
> Pastorio
Jeff - 21 Apr 2005 02:40 GMT
>> > (...)
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Collecting recipes would be a unwise hobby for someone trying to lose
> weight.

Why? Should one not collect recipes so that he may cook healthier meals that
are tasty?

Jeff

> At His service,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
> (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 21 Apr 2005 04:03 GMT
> >> > (...)
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Why? Should one not collect recipes so that he may cook healthier meals that
> are tasty?

"Wisdom eludes the unwise."

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D5217EA
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
Don Kirkman - 21 Apr 2005 22:15 GMT
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
article <42671811.64FA6272@heartmdphd.com>:

[. . .]

>"Wisdom eludes the unwise."

"Tautologies R Us"

Not having wisdom is probably the best definition of being unwise,
not?  :-)
Jeff - 21 Apr 2005 22:48 GMT
(...)

>> > Collecting recipes would be a unwise hobby for someone trying to lose
>> > weight.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> "Wisdom eludes the unwise."

Perhaps that explains why you don't have a real answer.

By the way, whom are you quoting?

Jeff

> At His service,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
> (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 21 Apr 2005 23:30 GMT
> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Perhaps that explains why you don't have a real answer.

Your behavior reminds me of the following scriptural passage:

Matthew 21:23-27

> By the way, whom are you quoting?

"All **will** be revealed to those who choose to spend eternity with the
Lord."

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
Jim Chinnis - 20 Apr 2005 16:21 GMT
"Bob (this one)" <Bob@nospam.com> wrote in part:

>> (...)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Bob

I can't believe I'm posting in this thread, but here goes:

While I think the 2-pound/2-Omer/32-avoirdupois-ounce diet is
lunacy as a whole, the idea of weighing everything is a good one.

I say this as a frustrated dieter and tracker of my own diet and
weight. If I try to use any of the popular software packages that
purport to assist dieters and tracking, I find that I must juggle
things like cups, fluid ounces, ounces, grams, tablespoons,
"medium-size," "large," etc. If I want to track nutrients, it
becomes even worse, given the simplistic idiocy of the US
nutritional information labels.

I have a kitchen scale. (Imagine that!) It was inexpensive. I
could measure everything I eat in grams. (I could use ounces, but
then the scale forces me to convert fractions and the original
whole food item is almost always labeled in grams, anyway.)

Why, oh why, can't diet software (and recipes) even in the
ounce-pound-cup-tablespoon-teaspoon-bogged USA work with grams?!

<end of rant>
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
elgoog - 20 Apr 2005 16:52 GMT
> "Bob (this one)" <Bob@nospam.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> While I think the 2-pound/2-Omer/32-avoirdupois-ounce diet is
> lunacy as a whole, the idea of weighing everything is a good one.

Nothing wrong with using a scale. Nothing wrong with limiting portion
sizes according to weight. Not exactly a new idea either.

> I say this as a frustrated dieter and tracker of my own diet and
> weight. If I try to use any of the popular software packages that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> becomes even worse, given the simplistic idiocy of the US
> nutritional information labels.

Manufacturers are only required to put certain information on their
labels. Beyond listing ingredients, the only "nutritional" information
required is sodium, vitamin A, vitamin C, calcium and
iron as a percentage of RDA (which is virtually meaningless). Any other
information you find on a label is wholly voluntary.

> I have a kitchen scale. (Imagine that!) It was inexpensive. I
> could measure everything I eat in grams. (I could use ounces, but
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA

Your scale measures food weight. You determine what you put into your
body and must determine it's relative value. What you put on that
scale, may determine how hungry you feel, whether or not your body is
getting the nutritional value and fuel you need, and ultimately whether
you will succeed.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 20 Apr 2005 16:58 GMT
> "Bob (this one)" <Bob@nospam.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA

Would suggest you get a scale that reads out in ounces.  Most postal
scales do this and can double for calculating postage.  The fancier and
easier to use digital ones have come down considerably in price.

In truth, most packaged foods in America have ounces already printed on
the wrapper.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
William Wagner - 20 Apr 2005 17:19 GMT
> > "Bob (this one)" <Bob@nospam.com> wrote in part:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
> (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

I can't believe I am addressing this tread either!   Not.

Years ago  there was a book/idea called "One Bowl".  Gist of which one
bowl a day was all you needed.  Sort of resonated with the Zen
macrobiotic folks.    

Still available

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1569246270/qid=1114013698/sr=2-1/r
ef=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-1976503-8811303

Way too tough for me but still an interesting idea and hey you don't
weigh anything.  However you may spill a lot filling  up your bowl;)))

Bill

Signature

Zone 5 S Jersey USA Shade garden in a Japanese manner
Vision problems? http://www.ocutech.com/ we own two.
Tell folks where to get your files FREE at http://www.DropLoad.com
"oeuf tot pique " Lover  

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 20 Apr 2005 22:12 GMT
> > > "Bob (this one)" <Bob@nospam.com> wrote in part:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
>
> Bill

Weighing is easier.  There is more freedom both in the timing and
location of meals.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
GaryG - 24 Apr 2005 05:54 GMT
> > > > "Bob (this one)" <Bob@nospam.com> wrote in part:
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
> >
> > Still available

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1569246270/qid=1114013698/sr=2-1/r
> > ef=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-1976503-8811303
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Weighing is easier.  There is more freedom both in the timing and
> location of meals.

How does that work when you go out to eat?  Or, eat at a friend's house?

Do your bring your scale to the restaurant?  Do you bring it to dinner
parties?

For that matter, do you go to dinner parties?

GG

> At His service,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
> (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
Don Kirkman - 21 Apr 2005 22:15 GMT
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
article <42667C32.BE8D5D0E@heartmdphd.com>:

>> "Bob (this one)" <Bob@nospam.com> wrote in part:

>> >>>> The guidelines, which were the basis for revising the pyramid,
>> >>>> include eating 2 cups of fruit and 2 1/2 cups of vegetables a
>> >>>> day; eating 3 ounces of whole-grain foods a day and drinking 3
>> >>>> cups of fat-free or lowfat milk a day.

>> >>> It is unwise to mix units when quantifying food.

>> >This, of course is nonsense as any recipe will attest.

>> I can't believe I'm posting in this thread, but here goes:

>> While I think the 2-pound/2-Omer/32-avoirdupois-ounce diet is
>> lunacy as a whole, the idea of weighing everything is a good one.

>> I say this as a frustrated dieter and tracker of my own diet and
>> weight. If I try to use any of the popular software packages that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> becomes even worse, given the simplistic idiocy of the US
>> nutritional information labels.

>> I have a kitchen scale. (Imagine that!) It was inexpensive. I
>> could measure everything I eat in grams. (I could use ounces, but
>> then the scale forces me to convert fractions and the original
>> whole food item is almost always labeled in grams, anyway.)

>> Why, oh why, can't diet software (and recipes) even in the
>> ounce-pound-cup-tablespoon-teaspoon-bogged USA work with grams?!

>> <end of rant>

>Would suggest you get a scale that reads out in ounces.  Most postal
>scales do this and can double for calculating postage.  The fancier and
>easier to use digital ones have come down considerably in price.
>
>In truth, most packaged foods in America have ounces already printed on
>the wrapper.

As well as grams or liters, as appropriate, as Jim mentioned.  No
omers, though, for some reason.
outrider - 20 Apr 2005 16:59 GMT
> "Bob (this one)" <Bob@nospam.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> I can't believe I'm posting in this thread,

We science damag...er...challenged learned to eyeball it long ago Jim.
But I can understand; you science geeks have to start somewhere.

Will Chinnis soon be asking Listener about his preferences in soy shake
recipes?

Zee
The bigger they come the harder they fall
http://www.ckua.com

but here goes:

> While I think the 2-pound/2-Omer/32-avoirdupois-ounce diet is
> lunacy as a whole, the idea of weighing everything is a good one.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> becomes even worse, given the simplistic idiocy of the US
> nutritional information labels.

> I have a kitchen scale. (Imagine that!) It was inexpensive. I
> could measure everything I eat in grams. (I could use ounces, but
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Bob (this one) - 20 Apr 2005 17:41 GMT
> "Bob (this one)" <Bob@nospam.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> I can't believe I'm posting in this thread, but here goes:

<LOL> Understand, Jim...

> While I think the 2-pound/2-Omer/32-avoirdupois-ounce diet is
> lunacy as a whole, the idea of weighing everything is a good one.

Agree absolutely.

> I say this as a frustrated dieter and tracker of my own diet and
> weight. If I try to use any of the popular software packages that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> becomes even worse, given the simplistic idiocy of the US
> nutritional information labels.

I agree about the idiocy of the bizarre melange of American standards
and that weighing everything offers a level of convenience and
scalability that the current conventions don't. And I have my own issues
with nutrition labelling and pretty much everything about how the FDA
does business - their rounding conveniences and their decisions about
what must be listed and how it is to be shown (or not shown).

Unfortunately, virtually all software that deals with food has these
mixed measures as the norms because that's how food handling has
developed/evolved over the years.

> I have a kitchen scale. (Imagine that!) It was inexpensive. I
> could measure everything I eat in grams. (I could use ounces, but
> then the scale forces me to convert fractions and the original
> whole food item is almost always labeled in grams, anyway.)

It does cost effort to get it all into weight. And you'll have to do it
for yourself.

What I've done over the years in my restaurants is establish portion
sizes according to whatever measure is appropriate and then weigh it. In
foodservice, all our recipes were by weight and that was even for the
liquids - we weighed the water, stock, milk, etc. So we knew (within
reasonable tolerances) what we were putting on plates.

The effect of that was to permit rather close nutritional analyses of
our served foods. Buffets, of course, make that impossible.

> Why, oh why, can't diet software (and recipes) even in the
> ounce-pound-cup-tablespoon-teaspoon-bogged USA work with grams?!

Or any single unit...?

One conventional restriction is that things from the farm don't come in
tidy packages. We've developed the way we think of them over millennia.
So talking about a pound of lemons or a pound of eggs isn't part of the
custom; the folk standard. A pound of doughnuts. A pound of milk
(although the dairy industry talks in pounds amongst insiders). A pound
of ice cream.

And that same issue persists in every culture on earth. And will differ
in every culture on earth.

> <end of rant>

A reasonable one that has a lot of support in foodservice and amongst
many subindustries. Professional bakers already do this. They don't talk
about a recipe, they say "formula". Everything is weighed including liquids.

But I wouldn't look for this any time soon for the general public.

Pastorio
Jim Chinnis - 20 Apr 2005 17:57 GMT
"Bob (this one)" <Bob@nospam.com> wrote in part:

>What I've done over the years in my restaurants is establish portion
>sizes according to whatever measure is appropriate and then weigh it. In
>foodservice, all our recipes were by weight and that was even for the
>liquids - we weighed the water, stock, milk, etc. So we knew (within
>reasonable tolerances) what we were putting on plates.

I do the same thing when I am tracking my eating behavior. The
only sure sure way to quantify many foods is by weight.

...
>> Why, oh why, can't diet software (and recipes) even in the
>> ounce-pound-cup-tablespoon-teaspoon-bogged USA work with grams?!
>
>Or any single unit...?

I want to use a weight unit. How much is a cup of broccoli or
diced onion? I have to weigh it to find out. What about using
"rounded tablespoons" for everything?  :-)

>One conventional restriction is that things from the farm don't come in
>tidy packages.

It doesn't matter: they all go on my scale. But the diet software
and recipes still make me measure green beans in cups, etc, etc.

>We've developed the way we think of them over millennia.
>So talking about a pound of lemons or a pound of eggs isn't part of the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>But I wouldn't look for this any time soon for the general public.

Only in my kitchen, your restaurants, and, of course, in Dr.
Chung's kitchen...  :-)
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 20 Apr 2005 22:12 GMT
> "Bob (this one)" <Bob@nospam.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> Only in my kitchen, your restaurants, and, of course, in Dr.
> Chung's kitchen...  :-)

... and Dr. Chung's office... and in the homes of more than 625,550
people who have had more than 5 years experience with the 2PD-OMER
Approach...


At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
Jeff - 21 Apr 2005 02:42 GMT
(...)

> ... and Dr. Chung's office... and in the homes of more than 625,550
> people who have had more than 5 years experience with the 2PD-OMER
> Approach...

With this much experience, I am surprised you haven't published your diet
yet.

Jeff
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 21 Apr 2005 04:03 GMT
> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> With this much experience, I am surprised you haven't published your diet
> yet.

The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D5217EA
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
Don Kirkman - 21 Apr 2005 22:15 GMT
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
article <4267180E.46B8011E@heartmdphd.com>:

>> (...)

>> > ... and Dr. Chung's office... and in the homes of more than 625,550
>> > people who have had more than 5 years experience with the 2PD-OMER
>> > Approach...

>> With this much experience, I am surprised you haven't published your diet
>> yet.

>The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet.

Is it the recent addition of the supposed 32-oz omer that changed it?

[Begin]

Message-ID: <3CBB1E4B.212F12FF@heartmdphd.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:39:07 -0400

So far hundreds have informed me that they are finding success with
the two pound diet.  None report failure and none report nutritional
deficiencies.
[End]

It was not yet hundreds of thousands of satisfied users, I presume.

But the change from "diet" to "approach" must not have depended on the
omer, since the omer was still missing in  February, 2004:

[Begin]
Message-ID: <402165AC.2B61E26A@heartmdphd.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 16:35:40 -0500

This discussion(s) is related to the 2 pound diet approach (2PD) which
is described completely at . . . .
[End]

That arouses my curiosity; how could those 625,550 people have been on
the 2PD-omer diet for five years when the omer stipulation was just
added recently, perhaps earlier this year?  The first Google hit on
that key is February 13, 2005.  Were the subjects on a different diet,
or does the addition of  "omer" make absolutely no difference except
some supposed religious support for the diet and its author?

And how many were in your control group?
Jeff - 21 Apr 2005 22:50 GMT
> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
> article <4267180E.46B8011E@heartmdphd.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> And how many were in your control group?

It is a diet, because it is what you eat.

I question whether it is really an approach, because important parts of a
healthy lifestyle, like excercise and not doing stupid things like smoking
and driving without seatbelts are not inculded.

jeff
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 21 Apr 2005 23:30 GMT
> > It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
> > article <4267180E.46B8011E@heartmdphd.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> It is a diet, because it is what you eat.

In truth, there are no instructions about **what** to eat within the
guidelines of the 2PD-OMER Approach.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
Bob (this one) - 22 Apr 2005 03:01 GMT
>>It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
>>article <4267180E.46B8011E@heartmdphd.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> healthy lifestyle, like excercise and not doing stupid things like smoking
> and driving without seatbelts are not inculded.

That's never been part of it. In fact, Chung has stated on many
occasions, in other words, that exercise isn't useful. Any peripheral
issues used to be where that "common sense" (undefined by Chung) entered
the equation in the early propagandizing, until he realized that he was
giving medical advice online and liable. Then the do-it-yourself,
"common sense" business went away and it became "see your doctor."

It's evolved from a good idea to THE *right* amount (emphases added) and
has suddenly  acquired (wholly spurious) biblical support. His
deliberate flaunting of the correct quantity of the omer to suit his
efforts at annoyance are merely more of the same sorts of acts he has
put on in recent time merely to disconcert people. In crass, street
terms, he does mindfucks. He has no real interest in convincing anyone
of anything. He has no real interest in hearing anything but that which
he already believes. His positions have become progressively more
extreme, more distant from science and its methods, to the opposite pole
of absolute, unquestioning belief in untestable and unprovable articles
of faith, to the complete exclusion of information that has been tested
and retested in the crucible of the empirical.

His whole insistence that there was a global flood all geological
evidence to the contrary and the actual existence of "Eve" as the
progenitor of *all* humans is serious enough. But to say that there has
been no evolution and that there is no evolution now is simply stunning
in someone who has studied comparative anatomy.

That whole transition to "divine" endorsement of an incomplete dietary
idea, his use of quotes around material that aren't really quotations,
top posting, deciding of late that the 2 Pound Diet isn't a diet, his
denying that he's the author of the Chung FAQ and owner of the site when
the writing style is pure Chungish, "misunderstanding" what people post
and asking obtuse questions, and many other obvious behaviors - at least
antisocial, on up to the sociopathic - are just his way of thumbing his
nose at everyone who raises even the most trivial question about
anything he posts.

Chung claims not to be engaged in combat - that he loves his neighbors
and shows it in his actions - but in the past few days he has talked
about defeating people in this "debate" postings. Chung's in it for the
zero-sum game. He always "wins" the contest, even when others don't know
they're in a contest. So much of how posting is filled with undeserved
scorn and spiteful posturing.

There is really no point in trying to engage him in rational discourse.
He hasn't the integrity to participate with anything but a desire for
emerging triumphant. He invites disagreement with his extreme tactics
and then seems to actually believe that he's being pressured for his
religious beliefs rather than his vile actions. Everything documents -
to him - that he's doing God's work; the cloak he hides behind to excuse
his demented abuses. There is no interaction with  fanatics; they only
want an audience to proselytize at and preen before.

It may well be that some of his technical information could be valuable,
but the entire framework of his presence is deceitful, evasive and
combative. Putting the technical information into the setting where he
feels the need to be triumphant should certainly set off alarms about
whether the information he provides would be different if he liked you
or disliked you.

Pastorio
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 22 Apr 2005 06:47 GMT
Quite the diatribe there, dear Bob.

Perhaps your radio show listeners would enjoy hearing you read it on the
air someday.  It is very entertaining (to me anyway :-).

Reminds me of the following story by Reverend Nick Shaffer:

   The story is told of a man who got a permit to open the first tavern
in a small town.  The members of a local church were strongly opposed to
the bar, so they began to pray that God would intervene.  A few days
before the tavern was scheduled to open, lightning hits the structure
and it burned to the ground.  The people of the church were surprised
but pleased -- until they received notice that the would-be tavern owner
was suing them.  He contended that their prayers were responsible for
the burning of the building.  They denied the charge.  At the conclusion
of the preliminary hearing, the judge wryly remarked, "At this point I
don't know what my decision will be, but it seems that the tavern owner
believes in the power of prayer and these church people don't."  Do you
believe in the power of God?

http://makeashorterlink.com/?P2264129A

The way to the truth is straight and narrow:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?A2642108A

You remain in my prayers, dear Bob whom I love, in Lord Jesus Christ's
most holy and precious name.

May you reject your pride and accept Him as your personal Lord and
Savior, someday, so that you too will have eternal life and the
fascinating riches of His everlasting kingdom.

Here's how:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

Please note that God truly made this special link describing that He is
the great "I am" and that His message is as simple as the number 2 which
is a number between 1 to 9 and reminds us of His 2 commandments,  the 2
arms of the cross, the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2 finger sign of the
Prince of Peace [who remains *V*ictorious over death and satan], and the
2PD-OMER Approach.  Let it not ever be written that Christ did not make
His presence known here on Usenet :-)

Also, note that Exodus 16:16 continues to remind us that 16 oz plus 16
oz makes 2 pounds, which is "a certain measure of weight," which is what
"omer" literally means in Hebrew.

Enter the 2PD-OMER Approach, which can "cure" metabolic syndrome thereby
bringing this thread back on topic for the medical newsgroups :-)

http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp

At His service,

Andrew

Signature

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:

(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D5217EA
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A 
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A 
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A 
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A 
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

> >>It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
> >>article <4267180E.46B8011E@heartmdphd.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 110 lines]
>
> Pastorio
Jeff - 22 Apr 2005 12:00 GMT
I think you have the wrong forum. This has absolutely nothing to do with
science, medicine or cardiology.

Jeff
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 22 Apr 2005 12:19 GMT
> I think you have the wrong forum. This has absolutely nothing to do with
> science, medicine or cardiology.

That would be your judgment and not the Lord's.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?D3DE219AA

About the truth:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?P2264129A

The way to the truth is straight and narrow:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?A2642108A

You will remain in my prayers, dear Jeff, whom I love, in Lord Christ's
holy name.

May you reject your pride and accept Him as your personal Lord and
Savior, someday, so that you too will have eternal life and the
fascinating riches of His everlasting kingdom.

Here's how:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

Please note that God truly made this special link describing that He is
the great "I am" and that His message is as simple as the number 2 which
is a number between 1 to 9 and reminds us of His 2 commandments,  the 2
arms of the cross, the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2 finger sign of the
Prince of Peace [who remains *V*ictorious over death and satan], and the
2PD-OMER Approach.  Let it not ever be written that Christ did not make
His presence known here on Usenet :-)

Also, note that Exodus 16:16 continues to remind us that 16 oz plus 16
oz makes 2 pounds, which is "a certain measure of weight," which is what
"omer" literally means in Hebrew.

Enter the 2PD-OMER Approach, which can "cure" metabolic syndrome(MetS)
thereby bringing this thread back on topic :-)

http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp

At His service,

Andrew

Signature

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:

(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D5217EA
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A 
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A 
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A 
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A 
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

Shaun aRe - 22 Apr 2005 14:14 GMT
> > I think you have the wrong forum. This has absolutely nothing to do with
> > science, medicine or cardiology.
>
> That would be your judgment and not the Lord's.

The Lord®T would like you to know that he has judged you to be a filthy low
down scum sucking gutter dwelling pig poking spammer from the slime pits of
Fuckwit'sville, and that you chose the wrong religion. HTH.

Shaun aRe
--
Life is the dream you wake up to.
Jeff - 22 Apr 2005 14:49 GMT
>> > I think you have the wrong forum. This has absolutely nothing to do
>> > with
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> of
> Fuckwit'sville, and that you chose the wrong religion. HTH.

Please. We can judge Mr. Chung's comments on their merits. Theses sorts of
personal attacks are not welcome. If you don't like the thread, then ignore
it.

Jeff

> Shaun aRe
> --
> Life is the dream you wake up to.
Shaun aRe - 22 Apr 2005 16:00 GMT
> >> > I think you have the wrong forum. This has absolutely nothing to do
> >> > with
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> personal attacks are not welcome. If you don't like the thread, then ignore
> it.

'Please, if you don't like what I type, then ignore it, Jeff.'

Seriously - You are going to get less than nowhere fast attempting to tell
me what to post or not to post on Usenet.

HTH, HAVVND.

',;~}~

Shaun aRe
--
Living Life Large Like Loud Lemon Lipped Laughter.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 22 Apr 2005 17:56 GMT
> > >> > I think you have the wrong forum. This has absolutely nothing to do
> > >> > with
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Seriously - You are going to get less than nowhere fast attempting to tell
> me what to post or not to post on Usenet.

Thank you for proving to Jeff and others that I am walking with the
Lord.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 22 Apr 2005 17:56 GMT
> >> > I think you have the wrong forum. This has absolutely nothing to do
> >> > with
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Please. We can judge Mr. Chung's comments on their merits.

"Judge not others unless you want to be judged by the same measure."

> Theses sorts of personal attacks are not welcome.

As if you were in charge here.

"Those who walk with the Christ will be attacked along with the Christ."

> If you don't like the thread, then ignore it.

Hypocrisy duly noted in someone who just complained about this thread
being off-topic:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?C2F2151FA

Truth is simple:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?P2264129A

The way to the truth is straight and narrow:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?A2642108A

You will remain in my prayers, dear Jeff, whom I love, in Christ's holy
name.

May you reject your pride and accept Him as your personal Lord and
Savior, someday, so that you too will have eternal life and the
fascinating riches of His everlasting kingdom.

Here's how:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

Please note that God truly made this special link describing that He is
the great "I am" and that His message is as simple as the number 2 which
is a number between 1 to 9 and reminds us of His 2 commandments,  the 2
arms of the cross, the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2 finger sign of the
Prince of Peace [who remains *V*ictorious over death and satan], and the
2PD-OMER Approach.  Let it not ever be written that Christ did not make
His presence known here on Usenet :-)

Also, note that Exodus 16:16 continues to remind us that 16 oz plus 16
oz makes 2 pounds, which is "a certain measure of weight," which is what
"omer" literally means in Hebrew.

Enter the diabetic 2PD-OMER Approach, which can "cure" type 2 diabetes
thereby bringing this thread back on topic :-)

http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp

At His service,

Andrew

Signature

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V113154DA 
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A 
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A 
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A 
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A 
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

Jeff - 22 Apr 2005 19:03 GMT
>> >> > I think you have the wrong forum. This has absolutely nothing to do
>> >> > with
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Hypocrisy duly noted in someone who just complained about this thread
> being off-topic:

I expressed my opinion that this thread is off-topic. I don't call any those
nasty things. There is no hyposcisy here.

Jeff

> http://makeashorterlink.com/?C2F2151FA
>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> Andrew
ralph - 22 Apr 2005 19:11 GMT
Right on.  Crap like this religious junk doesn't belong on a cooking
usenet topic.
listener - 22 Apr 2005 20:06 GMT
"ralph" <meyer@zoominternet.net> wrote in news:1114193478.691693.175880
@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

> Right on.  Crap like this religious junk doesn't belong on a cooking
> usenet topic.

The only way to deal with this is to killfile Dr. Chung. No amount of
imploring will get him to stop.

L.
Ma¢k - 22 Apr 2005 21:53 GMT
>"ralph" <meyer@zoominternet.net> wrote in news:1114193478.691693.175880
>@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>L.

in fact it will only inspire him to troll even harder because he is
getting the reaction he wants a negative reaction.  Chung trolls in
this manner because he enjoys sparking flame wars between the
newsgroups, and between religious people of differing faiths.  The
arguing is what chung really wants.
elgoog - 22 Apr 2005 19:29 GMT
> >> >> > I think you have the wrong forum. This has absolutely nothing to do
> >> >> > with
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
> >
> > Andrew
<<snip>>

It looks like you picked up the aforementioned insults against Dr.
Chung when Dr. Chung himself chose to cross-post his reply. Apparently,
Dr. Chung is less liked on rec.food.cooking than he is on SMC.

I expect that Dr. Chung thought he was taking revenge on Bob by
cross-posting, but it seems to have backfired. Or maybe, not; Dr. Chung
needs insulters to prove himself in his faith.

Here is the original cross-posted reply from Dr. Chung -
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/bdd76f24c790864d?dmod
e=source&hl=en


Note that the post to which Dr. Chung was replying was sent only to
SMC.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/e6f99b06050d3e21?dmod
e=source&hl=en

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 22 Apr 2005 22:15 GMT
> >> >> > I think you have the wrong forum. This has absolutely nothing to do
> >> >> > with
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> I expressed my opinion that this thread is off-topic. I don't call any those
> nasty things. There is no hyposcisy here.

"Hypocrisy is writing one thing and doing another."

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
GaryG - 24 Apr 2005 07:27 GMT
> > >> >> > I think you have the wrong forum. This has absolutely nothing to do
> > >> >> > with
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> "Hypocrisy is writing one thing and doing another."

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting
different results."

GG

> At His service,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
> (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
Ma¢k - 22 Apr 2005 21:50 GMT
>>> > I think you have the wrong forum. This has absolutely nothing to do
>>> > with
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Jeff

why not show some respect for all the other groups, check the headers
of your posts and do not cross post when replying?

it only spreadschung's trolling and angers those who don't want to see
it in groups where religios mythologies are not the topic.
Shaun aRe - 26 Apr 2005 15:08 GMT
> why not show some respect for all the other groups, check the headers
> of your posts and do not cross post when replying?

The irony of you posting that to all those groups is lost on you isn't it?
',;~}~

Shaun aRe
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 26 Apr 2005 16:06 GMT
> > why not show some respect for all the other groups, check the headers
> > of your posts and do not cross post when replying?
>
> The irony of you posting that to all those groups is lost on you isn't it?
> ',;~}~

Mack does seem to be lost.

Truth is simple:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?P2264129A

The way to the truth is straight and narrow:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?A2642108A

You will remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love, in Christ's
holy name.

May you reject your pride and accept Him as your personal Lord and
Savior, someday, so that you too will have eternal life and the
fascinating riches of His everlasting kingdom.

Here's how:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

Please note that God truly made this special link describing that He is
the great "I am" and that His message is as simple as the number 2 which
is a number between 1 to 9 and reminds us of His 2 commandments,  the 2
arms of the cross, the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2 finger sign of the
Prince of Peace [who remains *V*ictorious over death and satan], and the
2PD-OMER Approach.  Let it not ever be written that Christ did not make
His presence known here on Usenet :-)

Also, note that Exodus 16:16 continues to remind us that 16 oz plus 16
oz makes 2 pounds, which is "a certain measure of weight," which is what
"omer" literally means in Hebrew.

Enter the 2PD-OMER Approach, which can "cure" metabolic syndrome (MetS)
thereby bringing this thread back on topic for these NGs :-)

http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp

At His service,

Andrew

Signature

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?V113154DA 
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A 
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A 
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A 
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A 
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129

Shaun aRe - 27 Apr 2005 13:18 GMT
> > > why not show some respect for all the other groups, check the headers
> > > of your posts and do not cross post when replying?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Mack does seem to be lost.

Oh, I see - You hadn't said he was following you.

Shaun aRe
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 27 Apr 2005 14:11 GMT
> > > > why not show some respect for all the other groups, check the headers
> > > > of your posts and do not cross post when replying?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Oh, I see - You hadn't said he was following you.

Correct.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
Shaun aRe - 28 Apr 2005 13:43 GMT
> > > > > why not show some respect for all the other groups, check the headers
> > > > > of your posts and do not cross post when replying?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Andrew

You really are one of the smartest people I've met on Usenet.

Shaun aRe
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 28 Apr 2005 16:42 GMT
> > > > > > why not show some respect for all the other groups, check the
> headers
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> You really are one of the smartest people I've met on Usenet.

All praises belong to the Lord, Whom I love with all my heart, soul,
mind, and strength :-)

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2A821CEA
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 22 Apr 2005 17:55 GMT
> > > I think you have the wrong forum. This has absolutely nothing to do with
> > > science, medicine or cardiology.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Shaun aRe

The Lord has this message for you which can be found within His Word:
<