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Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / March 2005

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FDA, User Fees, Adverse Effects, and Safety

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Sharon Hope - 26 Mar 2005 05:49 GMT
What is the scope of the impact of prescription drug adverse effects?  Is
only the patient at risk?  Clearly not.  For example, the schoolhouse
murder-suicide shootings last week indicate that the harm from drug
side-effects can literally come to anyone within gunshot range.  According
to the news reports coming in, the disturbed student was taking Prozac, a
drug linked with suicide and violence in youth last January.

Why is this significant?  For those who missed the headlines last January
(or for those who are experiencing failing memory due to statin meds), a
couple of references:

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2005/01/01/eli_lilly_knew_prozac_causes_sui
cides_violence_fda_closed_both_eyes.htm

Eli Lilly Knew Prozac Causes Suicides, Violence - FDA Closed Both Eyes.
January 01, 2005

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/01/01/Worldandnation/Papers_link_Prozac__s.shtml
Papers link Prozac, suicide A British medical journal suggests the
antidepressant's maker concealed evidence of violent side effects.Published
January 1, 2005

This group has long debated the FDA's stance on adverse effects.  Typically,
the effect is ignored until it is demonstrated to be a serious problem, then
the label is adjusted.  The pattern usually includes some group pressing for
recall, and the FDA reminding people that every drug has adverse effects,
and they just need to become informed consumers and realize they are
accepting the risk by buying and taking the drug.

How many of the people shot at that school were in a position to accept the
risk of a Prozac prescription for someone else?

The user fee funding for the FDA rarely comes up - that is where Congress
decided to let the drug industry pay for part of the long (~12 years)
approval process, because they stand to profit the most.  Then Congress
slowly began withdrawing other funding, so that now the FDA is far more
reluctant to cause any negative stir about an approved drug for fear of
affecting sales volume and thereby cutting its own budget.  As an
institution, it is threatened with extinction if it moves against drugs on
behalf of safety.

Often the general wisdom in this ng is that the FDA is correct and it should
be buyer beware.  None of the people dead or injured in that school, with
the exception of the shooter, were buyers, nor were they in a position to
become aware, much less beware.

What has not come up often enough in these discussions is the impact on
others, in addition to the patient.  In the case I am closest to, statin
adverse effects causing disabling neuromuscular and cognitive damage, and
destroying short-term memory, it has been obvious that entire families are
devastated, homes lost, college educations halted, all replaced by massive
medical bills and the ability of the breadwinner to earn an income cut off
unexpectedly in mid-50's or thereabouts.  Still, the general hue and cry is,
should have read the warnings. (The fact that memory and cognitive impact
warnings were nonexistent on the label at the time is conveniently ignored.)
Who else suffers?  Well, if enough baby boomers begin to suffer the same
statin disabilities as my husband and many others, Social Security will run
out far sooner than is currently estimated - not only are these disabled not
paying in with income tax (they are no longer capable of earning an income),
but they are beginning to draw out medicare, disability, and social security
benefits, because all net worth is destroyed in the medical emergency.

Innocent bystanders' lives, general economy, Social Security, family homes,
chances for college education, general health and well being, all these are
casualties of unsafe drugs.

What further costs need to mount up to get enough attention on the issue of
drug safety to get some action?
Jeff - 26 Mar 2005 19:27 GMT
What does this have to do with cardiology?
Jeff - 26 Mar 2005 19:41 GMT
> What does this have to do with cardiology?

Sorry, I meant was does  the prozac part have to do with cardiology?

We don't know what the facts are in the case, at least not yet.

Jeff
listener - 26 Mar 2005 19:57 GMT
"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in news:R1i1e.5162$z.367
@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net:

>> What does this have to do with cardiology?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Jeff

Only in that is is a drug (like statins) that can have side effects (like
statins) in some people (like statins). To say that she is overreaching
would be an understatement. (But just in case, be on the lookout for a
crazed, gun-toting, statin-side-effect-induced person.)

Sharon doesn't need facts. Her mind works simply: horrendous tragedy -
drugs - side effects - cause.

As I've said before her m.o. is fear.

L.
zee - 26 Mar 2005 19:59 GMT
> > What does this have to do with cardiology?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Jeff

What does the prozac part have to do with cardiology? Prozac and other
SSRIs affect the QT interval. I think there is a connection between
safety, adverse effects of drugs, and the user fees FDA and Health
Canada charge pharma for each drug approval, whether it be Vioxx,
Prozac, or Crestor. This user fee is a significant part of both
agencies budget.

Prozac and cardio:

"According to Lilly's Clintrace Safety Database for post-marketing,
spontaneously reported ADRs, by August, 2001-before FDA's approval
of Prozac for children--there were 3,815 ADR reports for 6 to 17
year-old youths. The following represent more than 1% of reported
ADRs and are more common among this age group than others: dermatitis,
overdose, agitation, aggression, suicide attempts, convulsions,
vomiting, and 6 reports of QT interval prolongation, 1 report of
QTc prolongation, 3 reports of cardiac arrest, one sudden unexplained
death. (FDA, 2002, p. 4-5)"

http://tinyurl.com/3ozes

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.activism.progressive/browse_frm/thread/
3ef9f71cb7e0e9ea/c91d094ca1674ffa?q=QT+interval+prozac&rnum=1#c91d094ca1674ffa


 
Zee
Jeff - 26 Mar 2005 20:13 GMT
>> > What does this have to do with cardiology?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> What does the prozac part have to do with cardiology?

No, what does Prozac's ability to cause suicide (if it has one) have to do
with cardiology.

Last I checked, a prolonged QT doesn't cause suicide.

Jeff

> Prozac and other
> SSRIs affect the QT interval. I think there is a connection between
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Zee
zee - 26 Mar 2005 20:47 GMT
It is not unreasonable to think that a Prozac-altered physical (cardio)
chemistry could be part of a chaotic mental state. Whether or not a
prolonged QT (or anything) would "cause" suicide is a moot point.

Zee
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 26 Mar 2005 21:28 GMT
whaaat??

yikes you are reaching here zee...

ever think that perhaps this kid would be WORSE off without his "prozac
altered mental state"???

> It is not unreasonable to think that a Prozac-altered physical (cardio)
> chemistry could be part of a chaotic mental state. Whether or not a
> prolonged QT (or anything) would "cause" suicide is a moot point.
>
> Zee
Sharon Hope - 26 Mar 2005 22:57 GMT
> whaaat??
>
> yikes you are reaching here zee...
>
> ever think that perhaps this kid would be WORSE off without his "prozac
> altered mental state"???

He is dead and so are many other people.  How much WORSE off can he be?

>> It is not unreasonable to think that a Prozac-altered physical (cardio)
>> chemistry could be part of a chaotic mental state. Whether or not a
>> prolonged QT (or anything) would "cause" suicide is a moot point.
>>
>> Zee
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 26 Mar 2005 23:36 GMT
sorry...should have included that MANY folks on anti depressants are FARRR
better off on med than without...

whilst these meds need to be used with caution...so should all meds....

blaming his actions on Prozac(only)
is akin to blaming them on the makers of the firearm..

my h.o.

>> whaaat??
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>>
>>> Zee
Sharon Hope - 27 Mar 2005 00:17 GMT
Even if it was Prozac (partly), the point is made -

There are innocent bystanders who are affected negatively by pharmaceutical
adverse effects, and the recent history of the FDA has done nothing to
mitigate the risks.  The argument of patients who should have informed
themselves no longer holds merit.

Even Baycol was never recalled - Bayer pulled it voluntarily.

Drug safety is an issue that must be addressed.  For all of our sakes.

> sorry...should have included that MANY folks on anti depressants are FARRR
> better off on med than without...
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>>>>
>>>> Zee
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 27 Mar 2005 04:53 GMT
he was suicidal PRIOR to taking Prozac...

> Even if it was Prozac (partly), the point is made -
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>>>>>
>>>>> Zee
Sharon Hope - 27 Mar 2005 05:29 GMT
Yes, he was suicidal and alive.  And then he was given a drug that has been
connected with suicide and violence in teens, Prozac.

On Prozac, he went from being suicidal to murdering 9 people, injuring
others, and then committing suicide.

From the article:
"Family members told the New York Times that Weise's dose was recently
increased to 60 milligrams a day.

"I can't help but think it was too much, that it must have set him off," an
aunt, Tammy Lussier, told the paper."

Is there any question that drug safety and adverse effects of prescription
drugs need more attention?

Certainly those 9 who were murdered might be alive today had this particular
individual been screened out as a candidate for Prozac, for example.  They
are not the only ones affected, of course, the entire town was in mourning,
over 100 police officers attended the funeral of one of their own who was
murdered.

Again, the point is that adverse effects of drugs harm more than just the
patient, as if that alone weren't enough reason to pay more attention to
drug safety.

> he was suicidal PRIOR to taking Prozac...
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Zee
listener - 27 Mar 2005 14:07 GMT
> he was suicidal PRIOR to taking Prozac...
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> done nothing to mitigate the risks.  The argument of patients who
>> should have informed themselves no longer holds merit.

[snip]

Believe me, Hawki, you will not win this argument. She's got pertinacity.

L.
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 27 Mar 2005 19:21 GMT
yes I know...

just thought I would point out the inconsticeny of the argument...

article posted states he was suicidal PRIOR to starting Prozac

again...it is a known fact that suicidal folks often NEED the increased
energy or whatever that lifts the lethargy...ie...then they may take their
thoughts into actions...

but like statins...WHO or WHAT will predict WHO will react HOW is literally
impossible...

I personally have been on and off anti deps for years (for migraine
prevention)....and have yet to kill or commit suicide..

>> he was suicidal PRIOR to taking Prozac...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> L.
listener - 27 Mar 2005 02:29 GMT
> sorry...should have included that MANY folks on anti depressants are
> FARRR better off on med than without...
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>>>>
>>>> Zee

It's gotten to the point that Sharon and Zee are applying adverse effects
to people who are not even on the meds! (i.e. that amnesica trucker...!).
Wishful thinking, I suppose.

To say, without a proper diagnosis, that because someone takes a
particular drug and exhibits bizarre behavior (like shooting up people)
that the bizarre behavior was caused by the drug is absolutely assinine.

L.
Sharon Hope - 27 Mar 2005 02:45 GMT
>> sorry...should have included that MANY folks on anti depressants are
>> FARRR better off on med than without...
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> L.

Some say tom-A-to, some say tom-ahh-to.  Your vocabulary seems to be stuck
with idiocy and assininity.

Regardless, you should express your opinion to AP, they wrote the article:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151599,00.html
Hundreds Mourn Loss of Students
===start quote===
While investigators say they don't know Weise's motive, a long trail of
Internet postings paint a picture of a deeply depressed, suicidal boy.
Friends and family members have said he had been taking the anti-depressant
Prozac since a suicide scare last summer.

Family members told the New York Times that Weise's dose was recently
increased to 60 milligrams a day.

"I can't help but think it was too much, that it must have set him off," an
aunt, Tammy Lussier, told the paper."

===end quote===

and be sure to say hello to NIH for Pub Med, and to the journal editors who
published the studies that linked Prozac to suicide and violence in teens.

Probably they are no used to your choice of vocabulary, but you should
certainly introduce them to your thoughts.

Meanwhile, the point, should you actually be grasping for it, vs looking for
targets to vent your anger upon, is that there are adverse effects to
prescription drugs, and that safety should be taken more seriously.

One illustration is the murder-suicide by a teen on a drug that is linked to
murder-suicide in teens.  If the person quoted in the article is incorrect
and this particular teen was not influenced by Prozac - which is linked to
murder-suicide in teens - in his particular murder-suicide, the point is
still valid.

It is time to address prescription drug safety.  AND is is clear that those
adversely affected include people who are not taking the drug.

Let us know what AP, NIH and the researchers say about your conclusions!
listener - 27 Mar 2005 14:01 GMT
>>> sorry...should have included that MANY folks on anti depressants are
>>> FARRR better off on med than without...
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> Some say tom-A-to, some say tom-ahh-to.  Your vocabulary seems to be
> stuck with idiocy and assininity.

When the shoe fits...


> Regardless, you should express your opinion to AP, they wrote the
> article: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151599,00.html
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> editors who published the studies that linked Prozac to suicide and
> violence in teens.

My quarrel is not with AP and Pub Med. It's with your distortions,
missatements and overreaching conclusions.

> Meanwhile, the point, should you actually be grasping for it, vs
> looking for targets to vent your anger upon, is that there are adverse
> effects to prescription drugs, and that safety should be taken more
> seriously.

I said just that recently. You're not a very good reader.

[snip]

L.
Jeff - 26 Mar 2005 21:35 GMT
> It is not unreasonable to think that a Prozac-altered physical (cardio)
> chemistry could be part of a chaotic mental state. Whether or not a
> prolonged QT (or anything) would "cause" suicide is a moot point.

I disagree. Cardiac chemistry is below the neck; the mental state is above
the neck.

You're reaching a bit too far.

> Zee
zee - 26 Mar 2005 21:51 GMT
> > It is not unreasonable to think that a Prozac-altered physical (cardio)
> > chemistry could be part of a chaotic mental state. Whether or not a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> > Zee

Cardiovascular includes vascular disease. No fire wall between the body
and brain. Just ask someone suffering from diabetes, or AFIB.

Zee
Jeff - 26 Mar 2005 22:27 GMT
>> > It is not unreasonable to think that a Prozac-altered physical
> (cardio)
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Cardiovascular includes vascular disease. No fire wall between the body
> and brain. Just ask someone suffering from diabetes, or AFIB.

Actually, there is. It is called the "Blood Brain Barrier."

Besides, the funtioning of the brain is independent of the electrical
rhythms of the heart.

Jeff

> Zee
William Wagner - 26 Mar 2005 22:53 GMT
> Besides, the funtioning of the brain is independent of the electrical
> rhythms of the heart.
>
> Jeff

Can?t find the info but some folks in Maryland USA about 8 years ago
published an interesting article.  

From damaged memory.

Seems the body responds to stimuli in such spontaneous  manner that one
could say the body is the brain.  I know this sounds weird but this came
from some respected people in the field.  Sorry no refs.

I?m also inclined to respect the idea of dying of a broken heart.

Meandering Bill

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"oeuf t?t pique " Lover
"Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but
that's not why we do it."   -- Richard P. Feynman (Nobel Prize, Physics)

Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 26 Mar 2005 23:32 GMT
"dying of a broken heart" more often reflects an individual's simply giving
up on life....

>> Besides, the funtioning of the brain is independent of the electrical
>> rhythms of the heart.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Meandering Bill
William Wagner - 26 Mar 2005 23:53 GMT
> "dying of a broken heart" more often reflects an individual's simply giving
> up on life....

Net result is still the same. Poetic descriptions  aside the results are
still the same.  Yet they remain still the same.  

Giving up on life.....  What causes it...What combats it...
Love of life is easy to say, but I?d  hanker a guess that taking care of
someone else is of import.

Anyone know of a study of nurses vs. the general public?    Family?s vs.  
individuals? for longevity.

No matter I wish them all long life.

Bill

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Zone 5 S Jersey USA Shade
"oeuf t?t pique " Lover
"Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but
that's not why we do it."   -- Richard P. Feynman (Nobel Prize, Physics)

Sharon Hope - 26 Mar 2005 22:55 GMT
Yet statin drugs, which are prescribed for cholesterol reduction in order to
reduce arteriosclerosis in cardiac arteries cause memory loss, amnesia, and
cognitive damage - including blackouts, confusion, and aphasia.

The adverse effects most certainly cross the blood-brain barrier.

Drug safety is pertinent to cardiology.

>>> > It is not unreasonable to think that a Prozac-altered physical
>> (cardio)
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>> Zee
Jeff - 27 Mar 2005 03:29 GMT
> Yet statin drugs, which are prescribed for cholesterol reduction in order
> to reduce arteriosclerosis in cardiac arteries cause memory loss, amnesia,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Drug safety is pertinent to cardiology.

Drug safety is definitely relevent to cardiology.

Those sad events involving a misguided teenager aren't directly related.

Jeff
zee - 26 Mar 2005 23:01 GMT
> >> > It is not unreasonable to think that a Prozac-altered physical
> > (cardio)
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Besides, the funtioning of the brain is independent of the electrical

> rhythms of the heart.
>
> Jeff
>
> > Zee

There are many drugs that cross the "blood brain barrier. Several of
the statins are known to do that with devastating effect. And no, the
functioning of the brain is not independent of the behaviour of the
heart. Ask those with AFIB, diabetes.

In the case of the mental state of the young native man and the actions
of the drug he was taking: prozac has been proven to have both brain
and heart effect.

Let's get back to the reason for Sharon's post: the fact that drugs,
including statins and SSRIs have been marketed with too little too
late: too little care for the negative side effects and the right of
the consumer to know them, and too late with regard to the FDA
fulfilling its mandate.

Zee
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 26 Mar 2005 23:34 GMT
it amazes me that Zee will continue to argue with a doctor!!!

>> >> > It is not unreasonable to think that a Prozac-altered physical
>> > (cardio)
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> Zee
William Wagner - 26 Mar 2005 23:42 GMT
> it amazes me that Zee will continue to argue with a doctor!!!

50 % of doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class.

Bill

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"oeuf t?t pique " Lover
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that's not why we do it."   -- Richard P. Feynman (Nobel Prize, Physics)

Jeff - 27 Mar 2005 03:33 GMT
(...)

> There are many drugs that cross the "blood brain barrier. Several of
> the statins are known to do that with devastating effect. And no, the
> functioning of the brain is not independent of the behaviour of the
> heart. Ask those with AFIB, diabetes.

Yeah, but firewall is a perfect analogy. I am using a firewall on my
computer, but some messages get through, like email and web pages.

> In the case of the mental state of the young native man and the actions
> of the drug he was taking: prozac has been proven to have both brain
> and heart effect.

Correct. But the heart effect is independent on the brain effect.

> Let's get back to the reason for Sharon's post: the fact that drugs,
> including statins and SSRIs have been marketed with too little too
> late: too little care for the negative side effects and the right of
> the consumer to know them, and too late with regard to the FDA
> fulfilling its mandate.

Correct. But, to bring this event into a cardiology forum when we don't even
know what meds he was on, for how long or what other mental health care he
had is premature and reaching.

Jeff

> Zee
zee - 27 Mar 2005 09:01 GMT
> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> > Zee

The topic of the thread: User fees, adverse effects, and safety.

We have been discussing this issue here for three years Jeff. The
overall issue has relevance here.

The majority of posters to smc take statins. Statins were put onto
market the same way SSRIs were, the same way Vioxx et al were, and the
same way many other drugs were: over-hyped, over-marketed, and
under-researched.

The topic of discussion here is the threat to public safety and what we
as citizens and consumers have the right and the responsibility to do
about it.

Prozac, statins, cox2s: different classes of drugs. The same issue.

David Healy, prozac and drug safety:

http://www.healyprozac.com/

"This website explores threats to public safety and academic freedom
surrounding the SSRI group of drugs - Prozac, Zoloft (Lustral), Paxil
(Seroxat/Aropax). It makes available trial transcripts in 3 major cases
involving SSRIs and suicide and homicide."

Zee
Jeff - 28 Mar 2005 03:00 GMT
(...)

> The topic of the thread: User fees, adverse effects, and safety.
>
> We have been discussing this issue here for three years Jeff. The
> overall issue has relevance here.

Yeah, I know

> The majority of posters to smc take statins. Statins were put onto
> market the same way SSRIs were, the same way Vioxx et al were, and the
> same way many other drugs were: over-hyped, over-marketed, and
> under-researched.

I am not sure about under-researched, but I agree.

> The topic of discussion here is the threat to public safety and what we
> as citizens and consumers have the right and the responsibility to do
> about it.
>
> Prozac, statins, cox2s: different classes of drugs. The same issue.

Correct. But to jump to the conclusion that Prozac was responsible for the
tragedy is a leap in logic, until we know what really happened.

Besides, there are enough heart drugs to talk about without dragging this
tragedy into this until we know what really happened.

Jeff

> David Healy, prozac and drug safety:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Zee
zee - 27 Mar 2005 09:49 GMT
> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> > Zee

As we all know, a computer firewall does nothing it is hyped to do and
does a lot of bad things you were not told it would do. Firewalls (and
statins) are sold by fear-mongering and promises that cannot be
delivered, sales pitches and ads which scare the living hell out of you
so you buy into it; and buy it. Then once you have it, it wreaks havoc
with your system and prevents lots of other stuff from operating
properly, but does very little really to stop what you bought it to
stop, and then only on certain systems. Finally, even when you realize
the damage it is causing your system is worse than the damage it was
supposed to stop and you decide not to use it any longer, it hangs
around in your registry forever doing yet more subtle and incidious
harm.

No one understands what is wrong with your system but they charge you
mega bucks to run a buncha diagnostics to tell you that.

Statins and firewalls make you feel good thinking you are doing
something to protect your system when really, what you should have done
was be more particular about what you put into your system and where
you took it. Cause if you are going to cruise around on junk, no
firewall is going to save you.

And if you think your firewall is keeping some drug you take for your
heart from getting into your brain; check your registry.


Zee
Jeff - 28 Mar 2005 03:04 GMT
(...)

> As we all know, a computer firewall does nothing it is hyped to do and
> does a lot of bad things you were not told it would do. Firewalls (and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> around in your registry forever doing yet more subtle and incidious
> harm.

My expereince with firewalls is completely different. I use Zone Alarm Pro.
I am very happy with it. I am able to let what stuff through that I want.

> No one understands what is wrong with your system but they charge you
> mega bucks to run a buncha diagnostics to tell you that.

Which means you need to educate yourself, just like you do about
prescription drugs.

> Statins and firewalls make you feel good thinking you are doing
> something to protect your system when really, what you should have done
> was be more particular about what you put into your system and where
> you took it. Cause if you are going to cruise around on junk, no
> firewall is going to save you.

Firewalls, antivirus software and good antispam software are needed for good
computer security.

> And if you think your firewall is keeping some drug you take for your
> heart from getting into your brain; check your registry.

No, that is what the blood brain barrier does for many drugs. Not all, of
course.

Jeff

> Zee
zee - 28 Mar 2005 05:36 GMT
<long drawn out sustained keening sound>

Zee
listener - 28 Mar 2005 15:45 GMT
> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Pro. I am very happy with it. I am able to let what stuff through that
> I want.

Apparently zee must had had a bad experience with firewalls and now
condemns the whole industry (see a pattern here?).

[OT]: As someone who was involved in the computer industry for 12 years
(before retiring at around 50) I can tell you that firewall software and
antivirus software works and works well and anyone who is connected to the
internet without those protections is a fool.

L.
zee - 28 Mar 2005 17:53 GMT
> > (...)
> >
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> L.

I wasn't talking about firewalls. Zee
Sharon Hope - 29 Mar 2005 05:45 GMT
>> (...)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> antivirus software works and works well and anyone who is connected to the
> internet without those protections is a fool.

How big was the room needed for 1 computer in those days?  Were you dealing
in kb or terraflops?

> L.
Jeff - 29 Mar 2005 14:00 GMT
> "listener" <listener@nospam.net> wrote in message

(...)

>> [OT]: As someone who was involved in the computer industry for 12 years
>> (before retiring at around 50) I can tell you that firewall software and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> How big was the room needed for 1 computer in those days?  Were you
> dealing in kb or terraflops?

He said around 50, meaning when he was around fifty years of age. He
couldn't retire around 1950 with 12 years of experience, because no one had
12 years of experience with computers in 1950. And if he did, he would be
around 95. Not that many people that age who know what a firewall is.

I still deal in kb, as in my computer has 512,000 kb of memory and my hard
drive 60,000,000 kb of space. (in 4 kb chunks) and my computer can download
around 80 kb per second. I don't think he was dealing in terraflops. PCs go
up to around a few gigaflops, I think

Jeff

>> L.
Sharon Hope - 29 Mar 2005 14:05 GMT
>> "listener" <listener@nospam.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> He said around 50, meaning when he was around fifty years of age.

That was clear.

> He couldn't retire around 1950 with 12 years of experience, because no one
> had 12 years of experience with computers in 1950. And if he did, he would
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>>> L.
zee - 28 Mar 2005 17:49 GMT
> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> > Zee

In her original post Sharon also used metaphor. Zee

Metaphor
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
(Redirected from Metaphors)

In language, a metaphor is a rhetorical trope where a comparison is
made between two seemingly unrelated subjects. Typically, a first
object is described as being a second object. In this way, the first
object can be economically described because implicit and explicit
attributes from the second object can be used to fill in the
description of the first. Some (particularly in cognitive linguistics)
see metaphor as a basic cognitive function, while others prefer the
term analogy for this concept. However, metaphor is not always used for
practical description and understanding; sometimes it is used for
purely aesthetic reasons.

metaphor in literature:
http://www6.semo.edu/cfs/TFN_online/hearn.htm

Teaching Faulkner: Meaning through Metaphor
Pamela Hindman Hearn, Southeast Missouri State University

"Fiction and the Human Experience" is one of the popular literature
courses our University offers sophomores. Many of those who take this
course haven't read much, not even popular literature. (One student
confessed last spring that he had never read anything other than
textbooks.) Others, especially those who have had "college prep"
courses, have read some worthwhile works, although they often know
little more than the plot of these pieces, if that. It's a real
teaching thrill, then, to introduce them to some of the more
sophisticated techniques of William Faulkner, especially his method of
conveying meaning through metaphor and imagery.* This idea is an
interesting concept to them, and they begin to look forward to studying
the Faulkner stories because their themes are expressed subtly, and the
reader is often seduced into sympathy with questionable characters and
actions.

Consider the three short stories, "Barn Burning," "Dry September," and
"A Rose For Emily," for instance. In "Barn Burning" a young son
"betrays" his father for abstract principles. In "Dry September" a
lonely woman indirectly causes the murder of a totally innocent man.In
"A Rose for Emily" the main character murders her lover.  Yet, through
the use of metaphor and imagery, Faulkner manages to make the reader
feel that these acts are totally understandable.

In "Barn Burning" a ten-year old boy, Sarty Snopes, is cruelly caught
between his yearning for peace and justice and his loyalty to his
father, Abner, who relies on the retaliation of barn burning to rectify
any and all "wrongs" done him, imaginary or otherwise. Anyone who has
grown up in a farming community can appreciate the viciousness of barn
burning; a farming family's barn is often more important than their
home, in that it houses farm animals, machinery, stores of hay and next
season's seeds-in short, the barn protects the family's way of making a
living as well as its possessions. Abner appreciates this reality very
well and exploits it to get even with a world which he perceives as
unjust to him.

Still, betrayal of a father is no light matter, and the reader must be
convinced that Sarty, at ten years of age, has the strength to resist
becoming like his father and his older brother, Flem. (Although Flem is
unnamed in this story, his despicable character is further developed in
such pieces as "Spotted Horses.")

How does Faulkner accomplish the readers' sympathy for Sarty's point
of view? From the beginning of the story, Abner is associated with
ominous images such as a "stiff black coat" (5) and a "stiff and
ruthless limp . . . where a Confederate provost's man's musket ball had
taken him in the heel on a stolen horse thirty years ago" (5). He is
also described as a worshipper of fire as a weapon with which to strike
back at an unjust society:

         . . . the element of fire spoke to some deep mainspring of
his father's being, as the

         element of steel or of powder spoke to other men, as the one
weapon for the preservation

         of integrity, else breath were not worth the breathing, and
hence to be regarded with respect

         and used with discretion. (7)

Through Sarty's young eyes, the reader sees Abner "without face or
depth? a shape black, flat, and bloodless as though cut from tin in the
iron folds of the frockcoat . . . [his] voice harsh like tin and
without heat like tin" (8). It was "as though, [Abner] sidewise to the
sun .... would cast no shadow"(10).

All of this imagery adds up to a very satanic portrayal indeed. The
devil, as the old ballads remind us, casts no shadow, and the words
"stiff," "black," and "bloodless" confirm the reader's impression that
Abner is not merely a bad person, but may be likened to a demonic
worshipper of fire and the dark forces of the earth-a sort of latter
day Zoroastrian or Vulcan. When Abner takes Sarty to Major DeSpain's
elegant home, Faulkner describes Abner's black hat and coat ("which had
now that friction-glazed greenish cast of the bodies of old house
flies") and his hand, knocking at the door as a "curled claw"(11).

In contrast to these descriptions of Abner, Faulkner dramatizes Sarty's
dilemma as one of "terror and grief, the being pulled two ways like
between two teams of horses"(17). And when Abner and Sarty walk up to
the DeSpain mansion, Sarty's first impression is that "Hit's big as a
courthouse," and he feels "a surge of peace and joy whose reason he
could not have thought into words, being too young for that"(10). The
word "courthouse" is weighted with meaning. It is as if, for the first
time in his life, Sarty experiences a world where there is protection
from the viciousness and cold rage epitomized by his father, a place
where there are "people whose lives are a part of this peace and
dignity . . . beyond his [father's] touch"(10).

Though some students might sympathize with Abner's lashing out at an
unjust world, most are persuaded by the imagery and metaphor in the
story that Abner is an evil and destructive man, and that Sarty, though
only ten, is right in his decision to side with "peace and joy" and
justice. After studying "Barn Burning," the students become much more
aware of the meaning of Faulkner's metaphors and imagery.

In "Dry September" Faulkner uses metaphor and imagery to both induce
sympathy for and incriminate the main characters. Minnie Cooper is a
"thirty-eight or thirty-nine" (173) year-old, unmarried woman who lives
with an invalid mother and housekeeper aunt. Her purposeless life
revolves around sitting in the porch swing until noon, taking naps,
going "downtown" with the other ladies to "handle the goods and haggle
over the prices in cold, immediate voices, without any intention of
buying" (173), and going to the picture show where life unfolds
"beautiful and passionate and sad" (181), while young men and girls
enter, "their slim, quick bodies . . . divinely young" (181).

Minnie has lost her chance for a husband and family because of the
town's class consciousness, jealously, and her own pride. At nearly
forty, desperate for attention (The men "did not even follow her with
their eyes any more" [175]), she allows the town to think that she has
been assaulted and raped by an innocent Negro, Will Mayes. The result
is that the barbershop crowd, led by the town bully, McLendon, takes
the rumor for an excuse to murder the innocent Black man.

Minnie could be seen as a very unsympathetic character, except that
Faulkner seems to empathize with her. In describing her first
realizations that her popularity was, for some reason, on the wane, he
says: "That was when her face began to wear that bright, haggard look.
She still carried it to parties on shadowy porticoes and summer lawns,
like a mask or a flag, with that bafflement of furious repudiation of
truth in her eyes" (174); and besides social ostracism, the town finds
other ways of torturing Minnie. For awhile she has enjoyed the company
of a man with the first automobile in town. Of course their rides
together make the town jealous, and the townspeople relegate Minnie
"into adultery by public opinion" (175). When he leaves town to live in
Memphis, it is clear that Minnie has "lost" her chance at marriage.
After he moves, he makes it a practice to come "home" for one day at
Christmas, and all her neighbors enjoy telling "her about him, about
how well he looked, and how they heard that he was prospering in the
city, watching with bright, secret eyes her haggard, bright face"
(175).

After the supposed rape and Will Mayes' murder, when Minnie goes to the
picture show with her lady friends, Faulkner describes her journey as
the center of attention: "She walked slower and slower, as children eat
ice cream, her head up and her eyes bright in the haggard banner of her
face" (180). In these descriptions, the words "flag" and "banner"
suggest a sort of heroism in the face of hopelessness and injustice.

To prejudice the reader against the barbershop hangers-on and McLendon,
Faulkner uses other kinds of imagery.

One of the men getting a "frothy" shave in the barbershop, who is eager
to protect white womanhood from Black rapists, is described as looking
"like a desert rat in the moving pictures" (170). When McLendon is
introduced into the barbershop scene, Faulkner ironically mentions that
as a commander of troups in France, he had been decorated for valor. As
McLendon instigates the barbershop crowd to come with him to murder
Will Mayes, one barber suggests restraint-doing things the right
way-getting the sheriff. Faulkner continues, "McLendon whirled upon him
his furious, rigid face . . . They looked like men of difference races"
(172).

After the cruel and senseless murder of Mayes, when McLendon returns
home to his "birdcage" (183) small house, where he strikes his wife and
flings her across a chair for waiting up, he goes "through the house,
ripping off his shirt, and on the dark, screened porch at the rear,"
stands "with his body pressed against the dusty screen . . . panting"
(183). The imagery used in this passage clearly suggests that McLendon
is little more than an ape, caged in by his hatred for Blacks, women,
and perhaps, ultimately for himself.

In this story, as in "A Rose for Emily," Faulkner thoroughly indicts
small town meanness as a cause for individual tragedy. He describes how
Minnie's friends, "eyes darkly aglitter, secret and passionate," want
to know every detail of the "rape," while their hands are "smoothing
her hair, examining it for gray" (182).

"A Rose for Emily" is possibly one of Faulkner's strongest criticisms
of small-town meanness and the pettiness and cruelty of the small-town
mind. The author creates a first-person plural narrator who speaks for
the town throughout the story, a very unusual technique, and the
imagery he uses to describe Emily Grierson is quite different than that
used to portray the defeated Minnie Cooper. Miss Emily is described as
a "fallen monument . . . a tradition, a duty, and a care" (119), "an
upright torso motionless as that of an idol" (123), and "like the
carven torso of an idol in a niche" (128). When Miss Emily begins
seeing Homer Barron, a construction worker, and worse still, a "Yankee"
(124), "she demands more than ever the recognition of her dignity as
the last Grierson" (125). She makes a trip to the druggist to buy
poison, and Faulkner describes her "cold, haughty black eyes in a face
the flesh of which was strained across the temples and about the
eye-sockets as you imagine a lighthouse-keeper's face ought to look"
(125). The image of the lighthouse-keeper's face effectively suggests
the years of Emily's desperate loneliness and isolation. The druggist
explains to her that the law requires her to say what she is going to
use the arsenic for, but she simply stares him down and says nothing.
Nevertheless, the druggist fetches the arsenic marked "For Rats," and
both the author and reader must enjoy the irony, since the poison is,
of course, for Homer.

Miss Emily triumphs over the townspeople every time they confront her
and try to make her follow their rules. She lives in poverty, and, at
one point, is even reduced to giving lessons in china-painting, but the
town's interference in her life never seems to faze her. One example of
the town's defeat is when they send for her relatives to break up her
"affair" with Homer Barron; unfortunately they find that the relatives
are "even more Grierson than Miss Emily had ever been" and are very
relieved to see them leave (127). When the town's ladies force the
Baptist minister to call on Miss Emily and remind her of noblesse
oblige, he never explains what happened during the interview, but
refuses to ever go back to Miss Emily's.

The shocking end of the story reveals that Miss Emily is a murderess,
willing to go to any length to hold onto someone she loves. By this
time, however, the readers have been so influenced by the imagery
describing Miss Emily's lonely existence, frustrated youth, and
unfailing dignity that they, as well as the author, wish to give Miss
Emily a rose.

Once the students grasp the notion that theme and a great deal of
meaning may be conveyed through imagery and metaphor in Faulkner's
writing, they begin to enjoy the richness of his fiction very much.

Notes *Quotations from Faulkner's stories are taken from Collected
Stories (New York: Vintage Books, 1950). My appreciation of the
importance of metaphor and imagery in Faulkner's writing was
considerably heightened by an analysis of "Spotted Horses" in John
Gardner and Lennis Dunlap (eds.), The Forms of Fiction (New York:
Random House, 1962).
William Wagner - 28 Mar 2005 18:13 GMT
> > (...)
> >
[quoted text clipped - 296 lines]
> Gardner and Lennis Dunlap (eds.), The Forms of Fiction (New York:
> Random House, 1962).

 Implicit or imply also enables the reader to bring their own
perception into play.  Sort of champions individulity. Explict  on the
other hand implies a world of objective observation.  Sort of champions  
shared visions.  Maybe comforting but may be wrong too.   Chinese guys
tried to gapple with this so that the  duality was looked upon as being
a monad.

Bill confused as ever

Enjoy Below
.............................................

http://mbhs.bergtraum.k12.ny.us/cybereng/poetry/as4poets.html

As For Poets
by Gary Snyder

As for poets
The Earth Poets
Who write small poems,
Need help from no man.

The Air Poets
Play out the swiftest gales
And sometimes loll in the eddies.
Poem after poem,
Curling back on the same thrust.

At fifty below
Fuel oil won't flow
And propane stays in the tank.
Fire Poets
Burn at absolute zero
Fossil love pumped backup

The first
Water Poet
Stayed down six years.
He was covered with seaweed.
The life in his poem
Left millions of tiny
Different tracks
Criss-crossing through the mud.

With the Sun and Moon
In his belly,
The Space Poet
Sleeps.
No end to the sky-
But his poems,
Like wild geese,
Fly off the edge.

AMind Poet
Stays in the house.
The house is empty
And it has no walls.
The poem
Is seen from all sides,
Everywhere,
At once.

Signature

Zone 5 S Jersey USA Shade
"oeuf t?t pique " Lover
"Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but
that's not why we do it."   -- Richard P. Feynman (Nobel Prize, Physics)

William Wagner - 28 Mar 2005 18:25 GMT
Hi Zee a bit more.  Enjoy
 
Poems on Poems

http://mbhs.bergtraum.k12.ny.us/cybereng/poetry/

Below a quote from the above site.

...............................

Here is a little quote by the famous poetry critic Helen Vendler
commenting upon someone else's criticism that "every Ashbery poem is
about poetry." :

In the code language of criticism when a poem is said to be about
poetry the word "poetry" is often used to mean: how people construct an
intelligibility out of the randomness they experience; how people choose
what they love; how people integrate loss and gain; how they distort
experience by wish and dream; how they perceive and consolidate flashes
of harmony; how they (to end a list otherwise endless) achieve what
Keats called a "Soul or Intelligence destined to possess the sense of
Identity."

Signature

Zone 5 S Jersey USA Shade
"oeuf t?t pique " Lover
"Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but
that's not why we do it."   -- Richard P. Feynman (Nobel Prize, Physics)

Sharon Hope - 29 Mar 2005 03:41 GMT
Don't get me wrong, this vocabulary lesson and poetry reading is wonderful.

But how come, when I have direct quotes from studies and articles, I get
accused of being OT, and taken for task for what the person quoted said, but
no one has an OT problem with this part of the discussion?

All I did was ask for more attention to drug safety.

;-)

> Hi Zee a bit more.  Enjoy
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Keats called a "Soul or Intelligence destined to possess the sense of
> Identity."
zee - 29 Mar 2005 03:51 GMT
> Don't get me wrong, this vocabulary lesson and poetry reading is wonderful.
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> > "Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but
> > that's not why we do it."   -- Richard P. Feynman (Nobel Prize, Physics)

'Cause the OT POLICIA don't get abstract.

           ; )

Zee
Jim Chinnis - 29 Mar 2005 03:56 GMT
"Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote in part:

>But how come, when I have direct quotes from studies and articles, I get
>accused of being OT, and taken for task for what the person quoted said, but
>no one has an OT problem with this part of the discussion?

Cuz some things nobody reads anyway?
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
zee - 29 Mar 2005 04:10 GMT
> "Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA

Is this the "ugly" you warned me about Jim?

Zee
Jim Chinnis - 29 Mar 2005 05:14 GMT
"zee" <outrider@despammed.com> wrote in part:

>> "Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote in part:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Is this the "ugly" you warned me about Jim?

No insult intended. Just a comment about off-topic posts in
Usenet.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
zee - 29 Mar 2005 07:53 GMT
> "zee" <outrider@despammed.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA

My post was on entirely on topic. The fact that you didn't get
sustained metaphor is no fault of mine.

Zee
Jim Chinnis - 29 Mar 2005 16:06 GMT
"zee" <outrider@despammed.com> wrote in part:

>> "zee" <outrider@despammed.com> wrote in part:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
>Zee

I guess it's hard to get sustained metaphor if one only samples a
post in the thread.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
listener - 29 Mar 2005 16:59 GMT
> "zee" <outrider@despammed.com> wrote in part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> --
> Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA

I've heard that time-release metaphor, Meta4-TR (tm), is much more
efficacious with less serious side effects (like boredom). It's pending
FDA approval.

L.
Jim Chinnis - 30 Mar 2005 07:10 GMT
"zee" <outrider@despammed.com> wrote in part:

>> "zee" <outrider@despammed.com> wrote in part:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
>Zee

I guess it's hard to get sustained metaphor if one only samples a
post in the thread.
--
Jim Chinnis   Warrenton, Virginia, USA
listener - 29 Mar 2005 04:23 GMT
> Don't get me wrong, this vocabulary lesson and poetry reading is
> wonderful.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> ;-)

I don't think it's your direct quotes, per se, that were accused of being
OT..

zee and Zone 5 are known for their verbal frippery with one another. (I do
think they were told that it was OT, which they blissfully ignored and
which we now ignore.)

L.
zee - 29 Mar 2005 04:39 GMT
> > Don't get me wrong, this vocabulary lesson and poetry reading is
> > wonderful.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> L.

Show me where my posts were OT in this thread.

Show me how and why kindness and sharing interests among people who are
suffering cardiovascular disease is OT.

Show me this "we" you cloak yourself in. I am sure the others would
like to know who they are.

You are very disruptive and I am beginning to think jealous.

You have no right to make such hurtful comments about the style or
content of someone else's posts when yours are NEVER anything but
cynical, negative, judgemental of person--verbal hit and runs.

Zee
zee - 29 Mar 2005 05:04 GMT
Sharon, our Listener announced a  week or so ago that he had kill-filed
William and it "smelled better in here" already.

"Stench" was the word he used to apply to William.

He has made a similar announcements about me as you know.  Of course he
reads every word I post, doing a google on me to make sure he misses
nothing.

Listener is the kid who whizzes on what he cannot have, so no one else
can have it either.



Zee
Sharon Hope - 29 Mar 2005 05:23 GMT
The dog in the manger.

> Sharon, our Listener announced a  week or so ago that he had kill-filed
> William and it "smelled better in here" already.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Zee
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 26 Mar 2005 23:31 GMT
wasting your time Jeff....Zee always jumps in with often irrelevant
materials....blood brain barrier??  good analogy with a firewall  btw!!

>>> > It is not unreasonable to think that a Prozac-altered physical
>> (cardio)
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>> Zee
zee - 26 Mar 2005 23:38 GMT
"Blood brain barrier" was Jeff's phrase. And no it was not irrelevant.
Jeff made a very good point.


Zee
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 27 Mar 2005 00:10 GMT
blood brain barrier was HIS response to YOUR stating there is NO firewall...

not surprised you didn't get it tho...

> "Blood brain barrier" was Jeff's phrase. And no it was not irrelevant.
> Jeff made a very good point.
>
> Zee
zee - 27 Mar 2005 00:53 GMT
> blood brain barrier was HIS response to YOUR stating there is NO firewall...
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >
> > Zee

There is something here that someone did not get. See if you can figure
it out... The rest of us have.

Zee
zee - 27 Mar 2005 19:00 GMT
> >> > It is not unreasonable to think that a Prozac-altered physical
> > (cardio)
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Besides, the funtioning of the brain is independent of the electrical

> rhythms of the heart.
>
> Jeff

"...the functioning of the brain is independent of the electrical
rhythms of the heart."

Tell that to this person.

Premature ventricular contractions and paxil:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/c56564404212c073
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 27 Mar 2005 19:27 GMT
again....not a valid comparision

this person was having PVC's PRIOR to starting on Paxil...

the article concerns difficulty coming off Paxil(which BTW is a known
problem)..

cannot see the correlation....

>> >> > It is not unreasonable to think that a Prozac-altered physical
>> > (cardio)
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Premature ventricular contractions and paxil:
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/c56564404212c073
William Wagner - 27 Mar 2005 19:27 GMT
> > >> > It is not unreasonable to think that a Prozac-altered physical
> > > (cardio)
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Premature ventricular contractions and paxil:
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/c56564404212c073

Here is an interesting article on Brain Body .   Still can't find
article I mentioned earlier but Maryland
http://www.marylandresearch.umd.edu/
may be the player.

Enjoy

Bill
........................................................................

Exercise: Good for the Body, Good for the Brain

http://www.infoaging.org/feat28.html
By Laurel Tielis,
Infoaging Correspondent

Everywhere we turn, we hear information about the benefits of exercise
in building stronger bones and muscles and reducing the incidence of
illnesses from diabetes to heart disease. A growing body of research
however, is demonstrating that exercise is not just good for your body,
it's good for your brain.

Physical activity can be beneficial to stroke victims, people suffering
from dementia, even those who are the clinically depressed. This was a
key finding from a panel of doctors and researchers who spoke recently
in New York City at an American Federation for Aging Research seminar
entitled "Staying on Top of Your Game."

Exercise and stroke
Exercise can play a transformative role in the way the brain responds to
stroke. It can make the difference between being in a wheelchair to
navigating with a cane, according to Dr. Andrew Paul Goldberg, head of
the Division of Gerontology in the Department of Medicine at the
University of Maryland School of Medicine. In working with Richard
Macko, MD. Associate Professor of Neurology and Jill Whitall, PhD, PT,
Professor in the Department of Physical Therapy, Dr. Goldberg says they
have found that through repetitive exercise, the healthy part of the
brain can be trained to take over the work of the damaged part.

"The interesting thing we find," said Dr. Goldberg at the seminar, "is
that someone who has a stroke has damage to one side of the brain; if
the stroke is on the left, you lose function on the right." To help the
undamaged side of the brain take over some of the functions of the
damaged side, patients are given "reciprocal repetitive training." In
the past, standard practice had been to take the weakened arm or leg and
have it lift weights working against resistance. What Dr. Goldberg and
his team have done is have the good side work first and follow it with
the bad side in a repetitive rhythm. Think of walking on a treadmill;
one leg automatically follows the other.

Results are seen first in the upper body; walking takes longer. But
according to Dr. Goldberg, after six weeks of training in the upper body
and six months in the lower body, "(Patients) get right into rhythm.
It's like poetry in motion; it's amazing."

What's also amazing is that as long as five to seven years after a
stroke, patients can improve dramatically. Dr. Goldberg said, "There is
the potential to take a very disabled population and get them totally
back to normal function. That would allow many to leave nursing homes."

Exercise and dementia
Beyond stroke, exercise can also have positive benefits for people with
other so-called "brain diseases." "There is a growing body of literature
that indicates physical activity is associated with a decreased
incidence of dementia and Alzheimer's disease," according to Dr. William
Evans, director of the Nutrition, Metabolism and Exercise Laboratory in
the Donald Reynolds Department of Geriatrics at the University of
Arkansas.

"We don't hypothesize that exercise will make people less demented," he
said, but a current project he is involved with is examining whether
people with dementia in nursing homes sleep better and have a better
quality of life if they exercise. "They sleep during the day, and
because of that, do not sleep well at night," he explains, "basically
because there is nothing to occupy their minds. The hypothesis is that
making them stronger and more active during the day will improve their
sleep patterns at night."

Exercise and Depression
Numerous studies looking at the effects of exercise on depression have
found that physical activity can increase self-esteem, decrease anxiety
and improve mood and sleep patterns.

In a Harvard study, 32 depressed people aged 60 and over were randomly
assigned to those who followed resistance training and those in a
control group. Those who received the training made noticeable gains in
vitality, mood and the ability to function in social settings. Their
strength was seen to increase by a significant 33 per cent.

A similar study in Sweden focused on 40 seniors with an average age of
66. At the end of three months of working out three times a week, the
exercise group had a significantly better rate of ability to perform
complex tasks than the control group.

Dr. Thomas Prohaska, a professor in the department of the Division of
Community Health Sciences at the University of Illinois at Chicago
School of Public Health and a co-director of the University of Illinois
Center for Research on Health and Aging, is finishing a review of the
effect of exercise in older adults. Funded by the Centers for Disease
Control, Dr. Prohaska said its purpose is to see how physical activity
impacts on all aspects of daily life. Six different content areas are
being followed: quality of life; depression; self-efficacy; cognitive
function; anxiety and mood.

From the studies he's been following he noted, "Aerobics and strength
exercise both have some effect on mental health in older adults." He
also said, "We don't have a lot of research on anxiety and depression,
but looking at the studies we have, more than half were significant and
show a need for long-term studies."



Selected References:

Fiatarone MA, O'Neill EF, Ryan ND, Clements KM, Solares GR, Nelson ME,
Roberts SB, Kehayias JJ, Lipsitz LA, Evans WJ. Exercise training and
nutritional supplementation for physical frailty in very elderly people.
N Engl J Med. 1994 Jun 23;330(25):1769-75. PMID: 8190152

Macko RF, Smith GV, Dobrovolny CL, Sorkin JD, Goldberg AP, Silver KH.
Treadmill training improves fitness reserve in chronic stroke patients.
Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 2001 Jul;82(7):879-84. PMID: 11441372

Barnes DE, Yaffe K, Satariano WA, Tager IB. A longitudinal study of
cardiorespiratory fitness and cognitive function in healthy older
adults. J Am Geriatr Soc. 2003 Apr. 51(4):459-65. PMID: 12657064

Colcombe SJ, Erickson KI, Raz N, Webb AG, Cohen NJ, McAuley E, Kramer
AF.
Aerobic fitness reduces brain tissue loss in aging humans. J Gerontol A
Biol Sci Med Sci. 2003 Feb;58(2):176-80. PMID: 12586857



Reviewed and Published: November 24, 2003

Signature

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"oeuf t?t pique " Lover
"Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but
that's not why we do it."   -- Richard P. Feynman (Nobel Prize, Physics)

Jeff - 28 Mar 2005 03:06 GMT
>> >> > It is not unreasonable to think that a Prozac-altered physical
>> > (cardio)
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Premature ventricular contractions and paxil:
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/c56564404212c073

I didn't see anything about how the electric rhuythms of the heart were
causing problems in the brain. Rather, a side effect of a medication was
causing problems.

Jeff
Sharon Hope - 27 Mar 2005 00:38 GMT
>> It is not unreasonable to think that a Prozac-altered physical (cardio)
>> chemistry could be part of a chaotic mental state. Whether or not a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>> Zee

\Jeff,

Statin adverse effects is cardiology-related.

That is EXACTLY the kind of close-minded myopic
specialist-only-the-rest-of-the-body-be-damned approach that my husband's
Primary Care Physician and his Cardiologist took when we repeatedly appealed
to them to do something about:

Muscle pain
Muscle wasting
Nerve pain
Nerve damage
Memory loss
Chronic Fatigue
Amnesia
Aphasia
Chronic pain

Years of their ignoring of the issues and adamant denial that they
outweighed the 'benefits' of the Lipitor is what caused the damage to go so
far.

It would seem to me that a doctor would be very sensitive to something that
can cause enough cognitive damage to cause someone to score below the 1
percentile in short-term memory, since most of them use their brains and
memory daily.

I would think that doctors, of all people, would shudder at the thought of
needing 3 years of cognitive rehabilitation therapy to master a 4 word
sentence.  Think of it.  Your simplistic and dismissive sentence "Cardiac
chemistry is below the neck; the mental state is above the neck." is 13
words long!

THREE YEARS to master a 4-word sentence is the kind of statin adverse effect
I am concerned with.

How many years of cognitive rehab will it take for a statin cognitive
effects sufferer to read and understand your snappy comeback?  The same
thinking that caused the damage?
Jeff - 27 Mar 2005 04:27 GMT
(...)

> Statin adverse effects is cardiology-related.

How does that make a central nervous system drug'/s supposed central nervous
system side effect relevent here, in a cardiology group, when we don't know
all the relevent deatils?
Sharon Hope - 27 Mar 2005 17:26 GMT
Dr. Gaist's multiple studies proving statins to be neurotoxic, plus Dr.
Muldoon's studies demonstrating statin detriment to cognitive function, put
statins in the class of a drug that affects CNS.

What justification can there be for this kind of denial, demonstrated by
using extremely inappropriate compartmentalized thinking?

What does it take to draw the conclusion that "FDA, User Fees, Adverse
Effects, and Safety" is pertinent to cardiology and the drugs prescribed by
cardiologists that cause harm to the patient and to the patient's family?

Clearly, patients understand this.  Clearly, families of patients damaged by
drug adverse effects understand this.  Clearly, the general public is
beginning to understand that they have been put at risk - financial or
personal - by pharmaceutical adverse effects in others, family, friends,
co-workers, even strangers.

Anyone notice the recent 'factoid' in the press that nearly 50% of all
bankruptcies are due to medical bills?  How much of the bill is due to
adverse effects?  How many in the family are affected by bankruptcy?
Certainly more than the patient.  Not only the family, but the creditors.

There is a public imperative that pharmacetuical drug safety be addressed
more fully than it is now.  This is imperative for cardiology drugs.  It is
also imperative for all prescription drugs.

> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> nervous system side effect relevent here, in a cardiology group, when we
> don't know all the relevent deatils?
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 27 Mar 2005 19:23 GMT
actually the "bankruptcy" etc related to medical bills is almost totally
related to those who have NO insurance....

adverse effects or not...

> Dr. Gaist's multiple studies proving statins to be neurotoxic, plus Dr.
> Muldoon's studies demonstrating statin detriment to cognitive function,
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>> nervous system side effect relevent here, in a cardiology group, when we
>> don't know all the relevent deatils?
Sharon Hope - 29 Mar 2005 03:35 GMT
> actually the "bankruptcy" etc related to medical bills is almost totally
> related to those who have NO insurance....
>
> adverse effects or not...

Absolutely not true, 75% had insurance:

http://www.detnews.com/2005/health/0502/08/A07-77559.htm
Medical bills bankrupt millions
Thirty-three percent of families who had private insurance when they got
sick lost it, research finds.

"Medical bills and serious illness are a cause of about half of all
household bankruptcies, even though most families have health insurance
before the sickness occurs, researchers reported Wednesday. "

""Our study is frightening. Unless you're Bill Gates, you're just one
serious illness away from bankruptcy," said Dr. David Himmelstein, an
associate professor at Harvard Medical School. "

"More than three-quarters of the families had health insurance at the start
of the bankrupting illness, but among those with private insurance, a third
had lost their coverage, at least temporarily, by the time they filed for
bankruptcy. "

The study abstract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=15689369

Health Aff (Millwood). 2005 Feb 2; [Epub ahead of print]
MarketWatch: Illness And Injury As Contributors To Bankruptcy.

Himmelstein DU, Warren E, Thorne D, Woolhandler S.

Harvard Medical School and a primary care physician at Cambridge Hospital in
Cambridge, Massachusetts.

In 2001, 1.458 million American families filed for bankruptcy. To
investigate medical contributors to bankruptcy, we surveyed 1,771 personal
bankruptcy filers in five federal courts and subsequently completed in-depth
interviews with 931 of them. About half cited medical causes, which
indicates that 1.9-2.2 million Americans (filers plus dependents)
experienced medical bankruptcy. Among those whose illnesses led to
bankruptcy, out-of-pocket costs average $11,854 since the start of illness;
75.7 percent had insurance at the onset of illness. Medical debtors were 42
percent more likely than other debtors to experience lapses in coverage.
Even middle-class insured families often fall prey to financial catastrophe
when sick.

PMID: 15689369 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Study Full Text PDF:

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/hlthaff.w5.63v1

>> Dr. Gaist's multiple studies proving statins to be neurotoxic, plus Dr.
>> Muldoon's studies demonstrating statin detriment to cognitive function,
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>>> nervous system side effect relevent here, in a cardiology group, when we
>>> don't know all the relevent deatils?
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 29 Mar 2005 04:10 GMT
It continues to amaze me how MANY folks are living so close to the
edge...whilst so MANNNY drive brand new cars,,,carry cell phones..and have
huge tv's

if $11, 854  puts one into bankruptcy...perhaps they should have saved a bit
for a rainy day....

spoken from a couple who have had over $25,000 out of pocket medical costs
the past few years...

>> actually the "bankruptcy" etc related to medical bills is almost totally
>> related to those who have NO insurance....
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
>>>> nervous system side effect relevent here, in a cardiology group, when
>>>> we don't know all the relevent deatils?
zee - 29 Mar 2005 04:17 GMT
<Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> It continues to amaze me how MANY folks are living so close to the
> edge...whilst so MANNNY drive brand new cars,,,carry cell phones..and have
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> spoken from a couple who have had over $25,000 out of pocket medical costs
> the past few years...

I cannot speak for the poeple mentioned, but I imagine they, like I,
have long since burned through the "rainy day" fund. In my case it was
considerably in excess of $25,000.

Zee

> >> actually the "bankruptcy" etc related to medical bills is almost totally
> >> related to those who have NO insurance....
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> >
> > "Medical bills and serious illness are a cause of about half of all

> > household bankruptcies, even though most families have health insurance
> > before the sickness occurs, researchers reported Wednesday. "
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> >
> > The study abstract:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=15689369

> > Health Aff (Millwood). 2005 Feb 2; [Epub ahead of print]
> > MarketWatch: Illness And Injury As Contributors To Bankruptcy.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > investigate medical contributors to bankruptcy, we surveyed 1,771 personal
> > bankruptcy filers in five federal courts and subsequently completed

> > in-depth interviews with 931 of them. About half cited medical causes,
> > which indicates that 1.9-2.2 million Americans (filers plus dependents)
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> >>>
> >>> Clearly, patients understand this.  Clearly, families of patients

> >>> damaged by drug adverse effects understand this.  Clearly, the general
> >>> public is beginning to understand that they have been put at risk -
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> >>>> nervous system side effect relevent here, in a cardiology group, when
> >>>> we don't know all the relevent deatils?
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 29 Mar 2005 09:39 GMT
sorry...ours has been $25,000 per YEAR!!

my intent was....how many do NOT save ,,,or very little...while living "high
on the hog"...

I know many many many like that...

> <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> It continues to amaze me how MANY folks are living so close to the
[quoted text clipped - 138 lines]
> when
>> >>>> we don't know all the relevent deatils?
Sharon Hope - 29 Mar 2005 14:20 GMT
> sorry...ours has been $25,000 per YEAR!!
>
> my intent was....how many do NOT save ,,,or very little...while living
> "high on the hog"...
>
> I know many many many like that...

Stop for a moment, step back and take a quiet look around this thread.

I asked for more attention to drug safety to protect the many, many people
who are hurt (physically or financially or emotionally) by adverse effects
of prescription drugs.  I cited the harm it does to society, to the family,
and to the patient.

What does it say to you that the only ones objecting to increased drug
safety are those who could profit from the larger medical costs incurred?  A
nurse and a doctor?

I'm not suggesting that you are coldly calculating - 'oops, less medical
problems, less income for me, gotta nip this in the bud.'  However, you
might want to look around and note the overwhelming silence from others who
are not profiting from the situation (save the ankle biter who claims to
listen, but just spits venom).  Isn't it just possible that your a priori
assumption base is a bit skewed by being too close to the problem?

I am very sorry for the problems you are withstanding to have consistent
medical problems that amount to a consistent $25K per year out of pocket
expenditure over and above the cost of medical insurance.

But you need to look at the assumption that anyone should be able to afford
such outlay by putting away for a rainy day - mightn't it just be built on
another assumption: that everyone is as lucratively employed as those in the
medical field?  The 'norm' for you has been skewed, and some of that income
is coming from treating preventable injuries from the drugs themselves.

With the baby boomer generation aging, certainly medical costs will rise,
and the medical care field will continue to have high incomes.  Try giving
up just that portion that comes in due to treating preventable maladies
brought on by the drugs' adverse effects.  Harken back to the times of
physicians being admonished to

FIRST, DO NO HARM.

There is plenty more that can be made just by making people well.

As for your comment about knowing people who live high on the hog without
building a savings account - I know people who have lost their income and
their homes to statin adverse effects.

>> <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> It continues to amaze me how MANY folks are living so close to the
[quoted text clipped - 138 lines]
>> when
>>> >>>> we don't know all the relevent deatils?
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 29 Mar 2005 19:12 GMT
actually I do think you are putting ALL health professionals in to the same
category....ie..."let them get adverse effects,,,,then we will be assured of
work"

firstly...it is ludicrous to believe that "doctors and nurses"  NEED the
"business" generated by so called adverse effects...

yikes lady...do you truly think that is ALL or even MOST of what we do??
actually I do NOT deal with such problems...as an NP my primary role is in
primary care..ie prevention..ie..pap smears,,breast and prostate
checks..patient education...etc...NONE of which is affect one hoot by "drug
safety"

it has been said ...time and time again...that ALLLLL meds have a
risk/benefit ratio.....to assume that health care professionals are in it
for the work generated by the smallest numbers that experience the "risk"
indicate that you have very little knowledge into what we actually do..

as for your statement "...lucratively employed as those in the medical
field"....also reveals how little you know about how little I can
earn..remember I am a nurse..advanced practice yes...but not a brain
surgeon...I would guess our hourly income is pretty close...

as for those brain surgeons..or heart surgeons,,or any surgeon for that
matter..."medical care field (sic) will continue to have high incomes" also
begs defining....

depends upon what you consider "high income"...remembering that surgeons are
usually about 32 years old before they earn a penny...and then have loans to
repay for many years to come...

my hubby is now...FINALLY...on Medicare(and yes...2005 will be a better
financial year for us)...just as an example...yesterday his Medicare
"billing statement" arrived..for a stress test he had to have prior to his
hernia op last week (being post open heart etc)...the bill was in the range
of $750...Medicare paid in the range of 165...our supplemental paid
nothing..and we are responsible for no balance....I do NOT find it "highly
paid" for that cardiologist to "collect" less than 30% of billed.....you
may,,,,I don't

lastly ....as to your statement that you are sorry for "the medical problems
that amount to a consistent $25,000 out of pocket expenditure over and above
the cost of medical insurance"

I should have been clearer...in 2004 our "MEDICAL INSURANCE" alone cost us
$1864 per month..do the math...not to mention the co pays and
deductibles...adds up to very close to the number I quoted...2005 will be a
tad less....tho MY coverage is still $814 a month...

how can we pay these bills??

guess we planned a bit better..during the days when we were both
working...money went to pay off the mortage...we did without fancy vacations
and always bought American cars...etc etc...

you and yours Sharon...are amongst the minority that incurred such
astronimical bills(I assume most were covered by insurance as well)..

no one has EVER questioned that your spouse suffered the worst possible side
effects known to man...

no one has ever questioned that your frustration and also anger is not
justified...

but PLEASE  do not call it "all" the fault of the "doctors and nurses"
earning "lucrative employment"...

that is an insult to an entire group of folks .....

my h.o.

>> sorry...ours has been $25,000 per YEAR!!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 188 lines]
>>> when
>>>> >>>> we don't know all the relevent deatils?
zee - 29 Mar 2005 19:25 GMT
You completely miss the point. The majority of people injured by what
was meant to prevent did what you did: savings, mortgages etc. It is
the (north) American way.

"Prevention".  It is those unnecessary "preventions" which cause a
good deal of the injuries, illness and disability today. Very little
prevention. For example, new studies show here is miniscule proven
benefit to mammograms. We have seen evidence that is true for statins
too; and those are just two of the so-called "preventions" that make a
mockery of the health care system.

You are not involved in preventing anything Hawki.

Zee
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 29 Mar 2005 19:37 GMT
OK....so a mammogram which looks for EARLY breast masses is not preventitive
of lethal ones??  apparently you don't have as many friends/relatives that I
do that are alive many years later....yes..perhaps a better word would be
"early detection"

as for pap smears...let's see...if a routine pap finds "abnormal cells"..and
treatment is given...cervical cancer can be "prevented"...(in my book)

so as a colonoscopy...if polyps deemed "abnormal" are removed on a ROUTINE
test...colon cancer can be PREVEVTED

perhaps these don't fit your criteria for prevention/early detection....but
it is known that such things WORK

sorry you don't agree...that is your perogative...

however..you are wrong

and please don't combine statins and mammograms and pap smears into the same
box....

you may call it a mockery...again that is your perogative....this coming
from a person walking around with a cholesterol of 500....forgive me if I
don't consider you an expert...
> You completely miss the point. The majority of people injured by what
> was meant to prevent did what you did: savings, mortgages etc. It is
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Zee
zee - 29 Mar 2005 20:07 GMT
<Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> OK....so a mammogram which looks for EARLY breast masses is not preventitive
> of lethal ones??  apparently you don't have as many friends/relatives that I
> do that are alive many years later....yes..perhaps a better word would be
> "early detection"

> as for pap smears...let's see...if a routine pap finds "abnormal cells"..and
> treatment is given...cervical cancer can be "prevented"...(in my book)
>
> so as a colonoscopy...if polyps deemed "abnormal" are removed on a ROUTINE
> test...colon cancer can be PREVEVTED

People who eat properly are not overweight and do not smoke seldom need
such "prevention".

You said it at the beginning Hawki: detection is not prevention. For
prevention you would have to give up something in your comfortable
life.

Just taking statins as an example:

How about a trial of atorvastatin at any dose vs thoughtful,
comprehensive, lifestyle change, especially for the ADRs.

The ADRs of lifestyle change would be not being able to go to a posh
restaurant for a rich meal; not being able to groan away from the table
like a stuffed pig; and (hang on) being mistaken for a much younger
person when you wanted to look your age.

The ADRs of statins would be myopathy and renal failure, chemical
hepatitis, and brain damage (to say nothing of coenzyme q10 depletion.

What a terribly tedious trade off.

The same would apply to cancers by and large. How much cancer is
"caused" by our lifestyle? And not just our individual lifestyle, but
our polluted water and air, the way our food is grown.

THERE is where prevention lies Hawki. Not in a pill or intervention for
every ill, not in slash and burn.

> perhaps these don't fit your criteria for prevention/early detection....but
> it is known that such things WORK

Detection of something after it has been caused is, as you said,
detection. Prevention would be changing how we live.

> sorry you don't agree...that is your perogative...
>
> however..you are wrong

> and please don't combine statins and mammograms and pap smears into the same
> box....

They do all fit under the same topic. They are each points that make up
part of the whole.

I am not surprised you take this point of view. You swallow the
industry lie hook line and sinker. Look at youself. You are a product
of what you pay homage to.

> you may call it a mockery...again that is your perogative....this coming
> from a person walking around with a cholesterol of 500....forgive me if I
> don't consider you an expert...

Interesting you should use the word expert: people who are fallible
touting interventions which are fallible, all held in place by silly
putty. What exactly has your system of prevention prevented you from?

{The question is rhetorical. The answer is patently obvious.}

Zee

> > You completely miss the point. The majority of people injured by what
> > was meant to prevent did what you did: savings, mortgages etc. It is
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >
> > Zee
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 29 Mar 2005 20:18 GMT
oh...I see...just don't overeat...and one will be at NO risk of
breast,,colon,,or cervical cancer??

yikes...what has medicine done alll these years without your know nothing
knowledge

ps..."risks" are relative...my best friend..age 39..weight 110 pounds....is
undergoing breast cancer treatment...go figure!!

> <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> OK....so a mammogram which looks for EARLY breast masses is not
[quoted text clipped - 98 lines]
>> >
>> > Zee
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 29 Mar 2005 20:19 GMT
forgot to mention genetics...guess I should "give up" my poor mother who
died of breast cancer at age 53...slender I might add..

> <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> OK....so a mammogram which looks for EARLY breast masses is not
[quoted text clipped - 98 lines]
>> >
>> > Zee
Jeff - 29 Mar 2005 20:24 GMT
(...)

>> so as a colonoscopy...if polyps deemed "abnormal" are removed on a
> ROUTINE
>> test...colon cancer can be PREVEVTED
>
> People who eat properly are not overweight and do not smoke seldom need
> such "prevention".

I disagree. People who don't smoke and have a healthy weight are less likely
to get colon cancer. however, they still get it.

> You said it at the beginning Hawki: detection is not prevention. For
> prevention you would have to give up something in your comfortable
> life.

Actually, you colonscopy is prevention, because you can remove the polyps
BEFORE they become cancerous.
(...)

> The same would apply to cancers by and large. How much cancer is
> "caused" by our lifestyle? And not just our individual lifestyle, but
> our polluted water and air, the way our food is grown.

People who smoke, are fat and don't excercise are more likely to get cancer.

> THERE is where prevention lies Hawki. Not in a pill or intervention for
> every ill, not in slash and burn.

Correct.

>> perhaps these don't fit your criteria for prevention/early
> detection....but
>> it is known that such things WORK
>
> Detection of something after it has been caused is, as you said,
> detection. Prevention would be changing how we live.

jeff
zee - 29 Mar 2005 21:05 GMT
> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I disagree. People who don't smoke and have a healthy weight are less likely
> to get colon cancer. however, they still get it.

We agree Jeff. I said: "seldom". None of us lives in a glass bubble.
Overall, the preventions are; somewhat tongue in cheek:

@ choose your parents wisely
@ eat, live and exercise well
@ use "detection" appropriately
@ use intervention (devices and surgeries) when all else fails

Right now, the system puts almost all emphasis and effort into
"detections" and "interventions". Those few bleating on the sidelines
for a different focus are mostly ignored, ridiculed and given lip
service. Fundraisers for various diseases concentrate their money and
effort on detection and intervention. These two make up the health
industry yoke and wheel.

> > You said it at the beginning Hawki: detection is not prevention. For
> > prevention you would have to give up something in your comfortable
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> People who smoke, are fat and don't excercise are more likely to get cancer.

I do not say living like a monk will prevent all cancers. Again, we are
part of this society. Genetics does play a role. But putting the bulk
of our efforts into running after the problem after it has been caused
is futile. That is why, by and large, we have the same solution now
that we had for breast cancer in 1960; slash and burn.

> > THERE is where prevention lies Hawki. Not in a pill or intervention for
> > every ill, not in slash and burn.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> jeff
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 29 Mar 2005 21:35 GMT
I believe I corrected myself...and said "early detection"

yup...not prevention...but saves lives...

still waiting for Zee's argument re pap smears "detecting" dyplastic
cervical cells,,which if treated,,,will "prevent" cervical cancer...

as in colonoscopy and removal of "dysplastic polyps" which have not yet
become malignant...ie prevention of colon cancer by routine screening...

"seldom" is a loaded word...if YOU or YOURS are in the groups who get a
cancer despite no risks,,,,,

BTW Zee...interesting that in your reply to Jeff...you suddenly come up with
"choose your parents wisely"...tongue in cheek or not....

while I will agree with you that lifestyle has an enormous impact on
survival..unfortunately it is no where near a perfect "protection"...

why just this year I have TWO friends ...40 and 41..non smokers...etc..who
have died of colon cancer...no overt signs of disease until it was far
advanced...

not to mention again my 39 year old friend battling breast cancer...all non
smokers..all slim and fit..

go figure...

I agree that using "detection" appropriately is called for...burying one's
head in the sand is not appropriate tho..

as for "the system" putting almost all its emphasis into "detection and
intervention"....weight,,no smoking..exercise...etc all fit into such
categories....

what would you prefer their fund raisers concentrate on??

back to the topic of this thread...NO ONE will deny that Sharon..and
you...have had very adverse reactions to a DRUG....again..risk/benefit
ratio...

people also die with their seat belts on...or with their kids in safety
seats....doesn't mean we shouldn't do them

> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> jeff
zee - 29 Mar 2005 20:14 GMT
Here is just one study showing that "prevention" as you define it is of
no benefit and probably causes harm. You continue to put yourself
forward as one of the "experts" here Hawki. Yet your knowledge savings
account is bankrupt.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=healthNews&storyID=7999991

Zee

> OK....so a mammogram which looks for EARLY breast masses is not preventitive
> of lethal ones??  apparently you don't have as many friends/relatives that I
> do that are alive many years later....yes..perhaps a better word would be
> "early detection"
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 29 Mar 2005 21:24 GMT
sorry...but the quoted study illustrates your seeming lack of ongoing
knowledge

it addresses lung cancer

it has been known for YEARS that lung cancer is "out of the box"....years
ago we did yearly chest xrays with physicals....years ago the data proved
that by the time a cancer was visible on a chest xray...it was probably too
late...

so yes...I would agree that chest xrays are not valuable as a screening tool

tell that to my friend who's mom(never smoked) had a "routine" chest
ray,,,lung cancer was found...and she lived another ten years....yes,,not
statistically significant of course..

in fact...even pre-operatively...chest xrays are not always called for...ask
any anesthesiiologist (sp)

so...your study of lung cancer is only one such example

also btw MOST lung cancer "victims"  ARE smokers....

so lifestyle is the culprit in most cases

> Here is just one study showing that "prevention" as you define it is of
> no benefit and probably causes harm. You continue to put yourself
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> would be
>> "early detection"
zee - 29 Mar 2005 21:30 GMT
You cannot dismiss it out of hand, as much as you would like to. It is
a part of the picture. Truly sorry I do not have more time to drop a
dozen links in here. I found one in my inbox just as I prepared to get
back to work.

You would do well Hawki to put even a fraction of the time you spend
being splitting hairs into upgrading your once good but now woefully
inadequate medical education.

Because you see, announcing you are an expert cuts no ice here.

Zee
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 29 Mar 2005 21:44 GMT
sorry..but I can....and do..."dismiss it out of hand"

we have NOT been doing routine screening chest xrays (at least  not in any
practice I have been in)...for at least ten years...

expert??

no..I am not an expert...neither are you...if this was the best you could
come up with to illustrate that "early detection" is not valid....

I knew that a decade ago...

now find one that addresses pap smears and colon cancer....and prove how
"lifestyle" significantly affects their value...and I said significantly
> You cannot dismiss it out of hand, as much as you would like to. It is
> a part of the picture. Truly sorry I do not have more time to drop a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Zee
zee - 29 Mar 2005 18:01 GMT
I and others I know whose lives have been devasted by illness (partly
statin induced illness in my case) are so far behind you Hawki. I do
not begrudge you that, I am explaining.

You jump right to dismissing us as people who just didn't save. You
must deal with people like me every day of your work life. You do not
know.

I will paint it for you so you know. The last time I tried to do this
here I was ridiculed, but I think you need to know. I am legion. I am
*not* unusual. This is what happens when you do not have a middle class
safety net anymore. When everything you did have, had to be used to
survive the monsoon.

Presently, I have $9,000 left to my name. That is what is left of
savings and cashed in retirement savings and money from all belongings
long since sold at auction. Everything that might help me earn my
living, gone because I do not have the physical capability anyway. I do
not have the physicial capability because there is no treatment, and
what treatments there are I cannot afford.

No orthotics (causing osteoarthritis, joint tendon and ligament
damage), no dental care, no new glasses for 8 years, all affect my
health and ability negatively. My library, professional camera
equipment, all sold. No furniture but two chairs, a table salvaged from
garbage (my old oak table reconditioned by me years ago brought three
months living) and my bed. No car anymore. Internet going next. Friends
leaned on far too often.

The topic is statin damage which was preventable, but a healthcare
industry bent on profit instead of healthcare manned by people who
congratulated themselves on how well they were doing without any idea
what the costs were.

I have said *I*, but I might have said we. We are so many. With some it
is obvious. With others, it is not. So you cannot *know*.

Zee
William Wagner - 29 Mar 2005 18:26 GMT
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Zee

I like the Chinese way as I posted before.

If I?m sick my doctor does not get paid.  If I am well she does.

Upside down priorities ...but what really makes more sense????

Vested interest lies where?  I?m well aware this will not change in my
life time.  My sister BTW is an MD with a virologist husband.

Bill

Signature

Zone 5 S Jersey USA Shade garden in a Japanese manner
Vision problems? http://www.ocutech.com/ 
Tell folks where to get your files FREE at http://www.DropLoad.com
39.63812? -75.02077?  

zee - 29 Mar 2005 18:49 GMT
> > X-No-Archive: Yes
> >
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> Vested interest lies where?  I¹m well aware this will not change in
my
> life time.  My sister BTW is an MD with a virologist husband.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Tell folks where to get your files FREE at http://www.DropLoad.com
> 39.63812° -75.02077°

There are many good people in the healthcare professions. (Sometimes I
think they are all in my health policy advocacy listserve.)

But good people only need to do nothing for bad to prevail.

Zee
Sharon Hope - 29 Mar 2005 05:41 GMT
Once again, per the titular topic.

How much of that, if any, was due to adverse effects?  I know that in the
first year off Lipitor all 52 diagnostic appointments and tests (several of
which were well over $10K each), and the 3 years of cognitive rehabilitation
therapy was ALL due to adverse effects.

The point is that there are more than just the patient affected - and not
all effects are physical.  They can run the gamut from loss of productivity
to higher taxes to higher insurance rates (with more exemptions, higher
deductions, and more difficulty getting and keeping coverage), later
retirement qualifications (remember when 65 was retirement age?), loss of
income, loss of home, loss of opportunity to yes, loss of life.

What absurd line of reasoning is it that causes this group to argue AGAINST
giving more attention to drug safety?

> It continues to amaze me how MANY folks are living so close to the
> edge...whilst so MANNNY drive brand new cars,,,carry cell phones..and have
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> spoken from a couple who have had over $25,000 out of pocket medical costs
> the past few years...

You know, not everyone has a computer for chatting on the internet, and not
everyone has a $11,854 rainy day savings - do you realize that is 25% of the
median household income?

Take a look at this from the US Census bureau and count your blessings, and
maybe, just maybe, think about some tolerance for your fellow Americans:

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/002484.html

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
THURSDAY, AUG. 26, 2004, AT 10:15 A.M. EDT

     Income Stable, Poverty Up, Numbers of Americans With and Without
     Health Insurance Rise, Census Bureau Reports

           Real median household income remained unchanged between 2002 and
2003 at $43,318, according to a report released today by the U.S. Census
Bureau. At the same time, the nation's official poverty rate rose from 12.1
percent in 2002 to 12.5 percent in 2003. The number of people with health
insurance increased by 1.0 million to 243.3 million between 2002 and 2003,
and the number without such coverage rose by 1.4 million to 45.0 million.
The percentage of the nation's population without coverage grew from 15.2
percent in 2002 to 15.6 percent in 2003.

Sure, saving is a good thing to do.  But we went from a dismissive faulty
assumption that the statistic was for people with no insurance, to yes, 75%
had insurance.  Now we treat 1/4 of a median HOUSEHOLD income as trivial,
because you happen to have the good fortune to be able to shell out $25K?
Lucky you.

Again, how much of these costs, yours and others, are due to adverse effects
fo the drugs?  I would put that amount into a PREVENTABLE category, IF there
were more attention to drug safety - with a screening developed to prevent
those who would be harmed from taking the drug, thereby making it available
to those who can benefit from it.

Is that such a difficult concept to embrace?

>>> actually the "bankruptcy" etc related to medical bills is almost totally
>>> related to those who have NO insurance....
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
>>>>> nervous system side effect relevent here, in a cardiology group, when
>>>>> we don't know all the relevent deatils?
Jeff - 28 Mar 2005 03:09 GMT
> Dr. Gaist's multiple studies proving statins to be neurotoxic, plus Dr.
> Muldoon's studies demonstrating statin detriment to cognitive function,
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> more fully than it is now.  This is imperative for cardiology drugs.  It
> is also imperative for all prescription drugs.

You're still reaching.

Because a drug has central nervous system side effects doesn't mean that the
central nervous side effects of a different drug are relevent in this
newsgroup when we don't even know  what happened.

Jeff

>> (...)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> nervous system side effect relevent here, in a cardiology group, when we
>> don't know all the relevent deatils?
Sharon Hope - 26 Mar 2005 22:51 GMT
Adverse effects of cholesterol-lowering statins, typically the holy grail of
cardiology treatment, are what has drastically affected my family.  FDA drug
safety enforcement has become nonexistent, yet statins are the most widely
prescribed of all medications, and Lipitor is the most widely prescribed of
all prescription drugs.  Upwards of 15% of the patients suffer serious
adverse effects, sometimes resulting in total disability for many years
after halting the drug - as it is in my own husband's case.

Any call for action is met with rationalizations that run the gamut, and
often ending up with blame the patient.

Prozac also has dangerous adverse effects, and the adverse effects of this
last school shooting illustrates clearly that people who are not patients
are also at risk from adverse effects.  Label-reading warnings about
suicidal thoughts and violence on purchase did not enter into the options of
most of those who died or were harmed, or even just terrorized - locally and
remotely.

Drug safety is related to cardiology.

Risk mitigation is more than adding fine print to a label.

>> What does this have to do with cardiology?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Jeff
listener - 26 Mar 2005 22:59 GMT
> Adverse effects of cholesterol-lowering statins, typically the holy
> grail of cardiology treatment, are what has drastically affected my
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>>
>> Jeff

See what I mean, Jeff?

Ask Sharon about her "Upwards of 15% of the patients suffer serious
adverse effects" statement. Where is it from?.....[wink, wink, nod, nod].

L.
zee - 26 Mar 2005 23:12 GMT
The poster boy for statin related cognitive adverse effects....
Jeff - 27 Mar 2005 04:32 GMT
(...)

> Prozac also has dangerous adverse effects, and the adverse effects of this
> last school shooting illustrates clearly that people who are not patients
> are also at risk from adverse effects.  Label-reading warnings about
> suicidal thoughts and violence on purchase did not enter into the options
> of most of those who died or were harmed, or even just terrorized -
> locally and remotely.

Yet, we still don't know what really happened.

It is premature to draw conclusions.

> Drug safety is related to cardiology.

So is careful understanding of the facts and careful thought about them. But
we don't see them here.

> Risk mitigation is more than adding fine print to a label.

Yeah, it includes  understanding the facts.

Jeff

(...)
Sharon Hope - 27 Mar 2005 17:28 GMT
> (...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Yeah, it includes  understanding the facts.

How would you propose that we force the people who were murdered to
"understand the facts" about drug adverse effects?  If you could roll back
the clock, would you force everyone in that school to sign that they
understand that a former student is taking a drug that might lead to their
own murder?  Would that constitute "understanding the facts"?  Absurd.

> Jeff
>
> (...)
listener - 27 Mar 2005 19:22 GMT
>> (...)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>>
>> (...)

Jeff,

Did you see how she carefully twisted your words? Now she'd have us
believe that you are blaming the victims.

Shame on you.

L.
Jeff - 28 Mar 2005 03:16 GMT
>> (...)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> understand that a former student is taking a drug that might lead to their
> own murder?  Would that constitute "understanding the facts"?  Absurd.

Why not have the students and parents sign that they understand that not
everyone in the school washes hands properly after using the toilet, and
this spreads illness that could have the kids tossing their lunch?

Why not have  the students and parents sign that they understand that not
everyone in the school is properly immunized and may spread disease?

Why not have the students and parents sign that they understand that the
kids who drive to school are not experienced drivers and are a risk?

Life is a risk. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't do things to minimize
risks.

If I could roll back the clock, I would have the child better evaluated and
other interventions taken.

What I meant about understanding the facts, we should understand what
happened to troubled young person. We don't, at least not yet. To blame a
drug without understanding this is premature.

Jeff

>> Jeff
>>
>> (...)
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 26 Mar 2005 19:45 GMT
> What does this have to do with cardiology?

Adverse effects of statins.

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
Don Kirkman - 27 Mar 2005 00:15 GMT
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
article <4245ADCB.8F6053D2@heartmdphd.com>:

>> What does this have to do with cardiology?

>Adverse effects of statins.

Was the shooter on statins?*  If so, why, at his age?  If so, why has
that not been reported?  And in the absence of reports how can we know?

*  Or, as some might say, "who said anything about statins?".

FWIW, and in the interests of honesty, truth, and full disclosure Sharon
Hope did not associate statins with this case of violence.  Her only
references to statins were in relation to her own experience, which is
appropriate.

We DO know it was reported the boy was on Prozac, and there is evidence
that SOME Prozac users may become more suicidal and, perhaps, violent.
What we do NOT know is that Prozac caused his anger and violence; we
cannot move from a statistical model to individual behavior without
additional evidence.
Signature

Don
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed
us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their
use.                                --Galileo Galilei

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 27 Mar 2005 01:07 GMT
> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
> article <4245ADCB.8F6053D2@heartmdphd.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Was the shooter on statins?*

Unknown.

What is known is that the OP contains concerns about the adverse effects
of statins.

Do you deny this ?


At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
zee - 27 Mar 2005 01:12 GMT
But we can discuss it, because it concerns some of us, if not all of
us. We are now seeing a pattern, and have seen a pattern of adverse
effects that were ignored for other drugs (statins and cox2s) that
became only too obvious when unknown, suppressed facts were brought to
light.

No one denies there were other disturbing factors in this young man's
life. .

I though about a (somewhat) related point you made to me some time ago
Don. About native names. I only had to hear this young man's surname to
know he was Metis, of Cree descent, descended from the Swiss
mercenaries who came out to fight in the Red River Rebellion, and later
stayed to farm. And marry Cree women. Weiss is a Metis name. And I know
too without knowing anything further that he will have lived a life of
racism pain and rejection, quite apart from his personal devastating
story.  

Zee
Don Kirkman - 27 Mar 2005 20:51 GMT
It seems to me I heard somewhere that zee wrote in article
<1111882320.126174.169110@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:

>But we can discuss it, because it concerns some of us, if not all of
>us. We are now seeing a pattern, and have seen a pattern of adverse
>effects that were ignored for other drugs (statins and cox2s) that
>became only too obvious when unknown, suppressed facts were brought to
>light.

>No one denies there were other disturbing factors in this young man's
>life. .

My point in this particular message was that one person specifically
mentioned statins, which Sharon had NOT done in her OP (which I
applauded).  I was trying to make that point very clear before the
thread went off track, but apparently I failed.

>I though about a (somewhat) related point you made to me some time ago
>Don. About native names. I only had to hear this young man's surname to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>racism pain and rejection, quite apart from his personal devastating
>story.  

I knew he was Indian from the moment the news reported the shooter and
the victims were on the Red Lake reservation; his ancestry seemed
irrelevant and of little interest to me in the context of the shootings.
The fact that his father committed suicide and his mother later suffered
accidental brain damage probably had much more effect on his psyche than
any ancestral issue.

I'd like to assume you're aware that you can tell little for sure about
a person's background from their surname; immigrants of all backgrounds
have chosen surnames from a different culture, or have had their names
accidentally or intentionally changed during immigration processing, or
have shortened or altered the spelling of their original name for easier
communication.

BTW, IIRC the name is Weise, and I heard at least one fellow student
pronounce the "e" at the end.
Signature

Don
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed
us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their
use.                                --Galileo Galilei

S. Smith - 27 Mar 2005 21:36 GMT
The thread went off track before you or I posted.

I can tell for sure about this young man's background because I share
it. His surname is one of several coming from the fur trade. His first
European ancestor married a native woman, Cree, Ojibway or, least
likely, but possible, Sioux. He will have blood in the Winnipeg area,
the Red Lake Ontario area and in northern Manitoba, Saskatchewan and
probably Alberta.  He lived on what we in Canada call a reserve. He was
native, not "Indian". He was Metis. His parents lived the same
difficult troubled life he did because they too were native. His
ancestral and aboriginal status had a great deal to do with this event,
short of what the Prozac may or may not have contributed.

Zee
listener - 27 Mar 2005 22:30 GMT
> My point in this particular message was that one person specifically
> mentioned statins, which Sharon had NOT done in her OP (which I
> applauded).  I was trying to make that point very clear before the
> thread went off track, but apparently I failed.

From the original post "FDA, User Fees, Adverse Effects, and Safety":

"What is the scope of the impact of prescription drug adverse effects?  Is
only the patient at risk?  Clearly not.  For example, the schoolhouse
murder-suicide shootings last week indicate that the harm from drug
side-effects can literally come to anyone within gunshot range.  According
to the news reports coming in, the disturbed student was taking Prozac, a
drug linked with suicide and violence in youth last January.

Why is this significant?  For those who missed the headlines last January
(or for those who are experiencing failing memory due to statin meds), a
couple of references:"

And later in the same post:

"In the case I am closest to, statin adverse effects..."

L.
Don Kirkman - 27 Mar 2005 23:50 GMT
It seems to me I heard somewhere that listener wrote in article
<Xns9626A7E5EF67listenernospamnet@38.144.126.105>:

>> My point in this particular message was that one person specifically
>> mentioned statins, which Sharon had NOT done in her OP (which I
>> applauded).  I was trying to make that point very clear before the
>> thread went off track, but apparently I failed.

>From the original post "FDA, User Fees, Adverse Effects, and Safety":

>"What is the scope of the impact of prescription drug adverse effects?  Is
>only the patient at risk?  Clearly not.  For example, the schoolhouse
>murder-suicide shootings last week indicate that the harm from drug
>side-effects can literally come to anyone within gunshot range.  According
>to the news reports coming in, the disturbed student was taking Prozac, a
>drug linked with suicide and violence in youth last January.

>Why is this significant?  For those who missed the headlines last January
>(or for those who are experiencing failing memory due to statin meds), a
>couple of references:"

>And later in the same post:

>"In the case I am closest to, statin adverse effects..."

I was more detailed in my original post, in which I noted that Sharon
had not linked statins to the Red Lake case but that she had used
"statin(s)" in referring to her own experiences.  

For the record, I believe it was a doctor who threw in the bit about
statins to which I responded:

>Message-ID: <4245ADCB.8F6053D2@heartmdphd.com>

>Jeff wrote:

>> What does this have to do with cardiology?

>Adverse effects of statins.

The relevant part of my response was:

"Was the shooter on statins?*  If so, why, at his age?  If so, why has
that not been reported?  And in the absence of reports how can we know?

"*  Or, as some might say, "who said anything about statins?".

"FWIW, and in the interests of honesty, truth, and full disclosure
Sharon Hope did not associate statins with this case of violence.  Her
only references to statins were in relation to her own experience, which
is appropriate."
Signature

Don
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed
us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their
use.                                --Galileo Galilei

zee - 28 Mar 2005 22:07 GMT
> It seems to me I heard somewhere that zee wrote in article
> <1111882320.126174.169110@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> >I thought about a (somewhat) related point you made to me some time
ago
> >Don. About native names. I only had to hear this young man's surname to
> >know he was Metis, of Cree descent, descended from the Swiss
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> have shortened or altered the spelling of their original name for easier
> communication.

I'd like to assume you know you can get into big trouble by imposing
American cultural norms on other parts of the world. What you describe
was common practice in the United States at immigration but was not in
Canada. Different spellings yes, but they were different upon
immigration. For example one can check the passenger lists for Hudson's
Bay Company men coming into York Factory circa 1795-1840 from England,
and find: Swan, Swaine, Swain, Twain; variations of the same surname
orginating in the Orkneys.

The situation with Metis in Canada is that almost exclusively, it was
the woman who was native. So these Metis children by and large took
their European father's name. As above with the Swans, and Weiss or
Weise.

Canadians generally keep original pronounciation more than is American
custom because we are a bilingual country. Here, Weiss and Weise would
not be pronounced Wee-See.

Zee

> BTW, IIRC the name is Weise, and I heard at least one fellow student
> pronounce the "e" at the end.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their
> use.                                --Galileo Galilei
William Wagner - 28 Mar 2005 22:43 GMT
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
> > us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their
> > use.                                --Galileo Galilei

You say tomato I say tomatoe comes to mind.   BTW my fancy spell checker
gave me a real hard time with tomatoe.  If we are not too careful our
words will be devalued  and dumbed down with lost of  nuance.   aka the
spice of life aka  difference   Remedy use extreme words perhaps.

Tomato \To*ma"to\, n.; pl. {Tomatoes}. [Sp. or Pg. tomate, of
  American Indian origin; cf. Mexican tomail.] (Bot.)
  The fruit of a plant of the Nightshade family ({Lycopersicum
  esculentun}); also, the plant itself. The fruit, which is
  called also {love apple}, is usually of a rounded, flattened
  form, but often irregular in shape. It is of a bright red or
  yellow color, and is eaten either cooked or uncooked.
  [1913 Webster

Aztec?s always baked it in salt to remove toxin?s  otherwise it can
cause joint pain.  Just one of the gift?s along with syphilis  they gave
their conquers.

Tomatoes...Eggplant..Potato    same family.

Bill

Signature

Zone 5 S Jersey USA Shade
"oeuf t?t pique " Lover
"Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but
that's not why we do it."   -- Richard P. Feynman (Nobel Prize, Physics)

zee - 29 Mar 2005 00:16 GMT
> > X-No-Archive: Yes
> >
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
> You say tomato I say tomatoe comes to mind.   BTW my fancy spell checker
> gave me a real hard time with tomatoe.  If we are not too careful our

> words will be devalued  and dumbed down with lost of  nuance.   aka the
> spice of life aka  difference   Remedy use extreme words perhaps.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Aztec¹s always baked it in salt to remove toxin¹s  otherwise it can

> cause joint pain.  Just one of the gift¹s along with syphilis  they
gave
> their conquers.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> "Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but
> that's not why we do it."   -- Richard P. Feynman (Nobel Prize, Physics)

Plus ca oeuf tot pique William.
listener - 27 Mar 2005 02:25 GMT
> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
> article <4245ADCB.8F6053D2@heartmdphd.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> cannot move from a statistical model to individual behavior without
> additional evidence.

I'm just relieved that Sharon let us know that the amnesiac trucker was
*NOT* taking a statin.

Phew!...that was a close one!

L.
zee - 27 Mar 2005 02:34 GMT
Shouldn't you be busy somewhere putting the finishing touches on your
version of Girl from Ipanema?

Lounge sound...

Zee
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 27 Mar 2005 02:47 GMT
> Shouldn't you be busy somewhere putting the finishing touches on your
> version of Girl from Ipanema?
>
> Lounge sound...
>
> Zee

It seems you have a lot of faith in your instinct that Listener reads
your posts :-)

At His service,

Andrew

--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist

**
Suggested Reading:
(1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048
(2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A
(3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A
(4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A
(5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A
(6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A
(7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129
listener - 26 Mar 2005 19:52 GMT
> What is the scope of the impact of prescription drug adverse effects?
> Is only the patient at risk?  Clearly not.  For example, the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> was taking Prozac, a drug linked with suicide and violence in youth
> last January.

Well, if this ain't fearmonger on a gross scale I don't know what is.

L.
Sharon Hope - 26 Mar 2005 23:07 GMT
>> What is the scope of the impact of prescription drug adverse effects?
>> Is only the patient at risk?  Clearly not.  For example, the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Well, if this ain't fearmonger on a gross scale I don't know what is.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151599,00.html
     Hundreds Mourn Loss of Students
     Saturday, March 26, 2005

===start quote===
The Red Lake school isn't expected to reopen until next month.
It was the worst U.S. school shooting since the April 1999 rampage Columbine
High School in Colorado, which ended in the deaths of 12 students, a teacher
and two teen gunmen.
===end quote===

Yes, I'd say there was fear involved at that school.

Also to the point:

===start quote===
While investigators say they don't know Weise's motive, a long trail of
Internet postings paint a picture of a deeply depressed, suicidal boy.
Friends and family members have said he had been taking the anti-depressant
Prozac since a suicide scare last summer.

Family members told the New York Times that Weise's dose was recently
increased to 60 milligrams a day.

"I can't help but think it was too much, that it must have set him off," an
aunt, Tammy Lussier, told the paper."

===end quote===

> L.
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 26 Mar 2005 23:39 GMT
oh...so the Prozac superceded the initial suicide scare??

so why the blame ONLY the Prozac???

obviously this was a seriously deranged kid

actually...there IS evidence that the "increased suicide" risk related to
a/d meds can be related to the lifting of the antidepressant lethargy.....

but ...again..no reason to deprive alllll folks of anti depressant meds

in my h.o.

>>> What is the scope of the impact of prescription drug adverse effects?
>>> Is only the patient at risk?  Clearly not.  For example, the
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>>
>> L.
Sharon Hope - 27 Mar 2005 00:26 GMT
If only everything in the world were as black and white as this ng seems to
wish, things would be dreadfully boring.  Would you go back to B&W TV?  Oh,
wait, that wouldn't be good enough, as it, too had shades of grey!

The point is that drug SAFETY needs to be addressed.

Nowhere but in your post will you find "deprive alllll folks of ... meds"

The point is that SAFETY needs to be addressed -

- Fairly
- Proactively
- Honestly
- Overtly
- Intentionally
- Consistently
and
- Independent of comercial or political gain

NOT addressing safety is what could actually result in a situation that
would "deprive alllll folks of ... meds"

Now who would have thought asking for adverse effects to be addressed would
be so threatening to so many people...

Simple concept.  Obvious need.

> oh...so the Prozac superceded the initial suicide scare??
>
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>>>
>>> L.
listener - 27 Mar 2005 02:31 GMT
>>> What is the scope of the impact of prescription drug adverse
>>> effects? Is only the patient at risk?  Clearly not.  For example,
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>>
>> L.

Ahh, yes. Aunt's know best.

L.
zee - 26 Mar 2005 20:52 GMT
Sharon

You can see that when drug companies started paying user fees to Health
Canada not only did the number of positive decisions increase but
approval times dropped dramatically.

Mean approval times for drugs approved by Health Canada:

1993
32.6 months

2000
18.9 months

Per cent of funding from user fees:

1993
Zero   (0)

2000
49.7

Positive decisions on new drug submissions & abbreviated new drug
submissions as a percent of total decisions:

1993
31.3

2000
65.8

Zee

> What is the scope of the impact of prescription drug adverse effects?
Is
> only the patient at risk?  Clearly not.  For example, the schoolhouse
> murder-suicide shootings last week indicate that the harm from drug
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> (or for those who are experiencing failing memory due to statin meds), a
> couple of references:

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2005/01/01/eli_lilly_knew_prozac_causes_sui
cides_violence_fda_closed_both_eyes.htm

> Eli Lilly Knew Prozac Causes Suicides, Violence - FDA Closed Both Eyes.
> January 01, 2005

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/01/01/Worldandnation/Papers_link_Prozac__s.shtml
> Papers link Prozac, suicide A British medical journal suggests the
> antidepressant's maker concealed evidence of violent side effects.Published
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> What further costs need to mount up to get enough attention on the issue of
> drug safety to get some action?
 
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