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Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / February 2005drugs that deplete coq10
Statins, Dymelor, Micronase and Tolinase deplete coq10 Glucophage depletes coq10 and B12 Adapin, Aventyl, Elavil, Tofranil, Pamelor, Sinequan and Norpramin Elavil and some pain killers prescribed for peripheal neuropathy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 02/02/05 Ken Baker Column Are the risks of nutrient depletion by statins excessive? Maintenance of healthy heart, nerve, brain, liver, and skeletal muscles requires CoQ10. Deficiencies have reportedly given rise to congestive heard failure, weakening of the heart muscles, attention problems, delayed reflexes, cognitive decline and memory impairment. There is no serious debate, CoQ10 is absolutely essential to the conversion inside each cell of nutrients and oxygen to energy. Don't leave home without it. Last week we reviewed how Walter, a reader of this column, avoided the statin drug, Lipitor, by letting food be his medicine. That, coupled with vigorous exercise, kept him drug free and enabled him to avoid the risks of CoQ10 depletion. The average healthy body has stored approximately 2,000 mg of CoQ10. Each adult uses about 500 mg a day. The average diet provides 5 mg daily. Where does the rest come from? We make it ourselves. Our body synthesizes CoQ10. If there is not enough, supplements can bring up the slack. Internal synthesis of CoQ10 takes place in the liver, peaking at about age 21-- and by 30, the rate begins to decline. The process is similar to how the liver manufactures cholesterol. When a statin reduces cholesterol production, it also restricts production of CoQ10. Most of the 67 million people that orthodox medicine estimates are in need of lifelong statin therapy are over age 50. Many were at risk for CoQ10 deficiency even before they started on the drug. The statins increase the prospect of harm. Last summer, the "Archives of Neurology" published a study from Columbia University College of Physicians & Surgeons reporting patients on Lipitor for 30 days had a 50 percent fall in CoQ10 blood plasma levels. The drug company studies claim the risk is low, between .5 and 2.3 percent, depending on dose. That is somewhere between 335,000 and 1,540,000 people experiencing adverse events. Given that the drug companies only select healthy people for their drug studies, it is highly unlikely any of them were taking other drugs known to deplete CoQ10. The risk of serious adverse effects is almost certainly grossly understated. When assessing the risks of statins, the cumulative effect of all drugs prescribed for the patient must be the focus of attention. It rarely is. Heart disease is an especially serious problem for patients with Type II diabetes. Common drugs for diabetics that deplete CoQ10 include Dymelor, Micronase and Tolinase. Another commonly prescribed diabetic drug, Glucophage, depletes not only CoQ10, but also vitamin B12, a second risk factor for heart disease. The cumulative effect of these diabetic drugs recently became a matter for more concern. Last summer, in the "Annals of Internal Medicine," a prestigious journal with approximately 115,000 subscribers, it was recommended that virtually all diabetics over 45 be prescribed a lifetime regimen of statin drugs. Should we be surprised if diabetics' rates of heart disease grow ever greater? People who are depressed may also be prescribed statins. Several drugs commonly prescribed for depression deplete CoQ10: Adapin, Aventyl, Elavil, Tofranil, Pamelor, Sinequan and Norpramin. Another reader, suffering from neuropathy, was prescribed Elavil and two other pain killers that deplete B12. Her doctor mentioned neither CoQ10 nor B12. Yet these nutritional deficiencies are risk factors for the very disease he was treating. Patients that are claimed to be at high risk because of elevated cholesterol may also be taking other drugs targeting cardiovascular disease. The following heart disease drugs may provide benefits, but they may also have adverse effects on heart health. When combined with statins, the total CoQ10 depletion could shift the balance from a net benefit to an unacceptable risk. Those drugs include: Corgard, Inderal, Lopressor, Betapac, Tenormin, Sectral, Biocardren, Aldomet, Catapres and Apresoline. Orthodox medicine seems to have turned a blind eye to risks brought on by nutrient depletion. Drug companies do not test for or report on its consequences. The National Institutes of Health appears to be doing little. The FDA is oblivious. It has been petitioned twice to require a CoQ10 depletion warning for statins. So far, nothing. Of the near-dozen statin takers who wrote in response to last week's column, only one reported being advised to supplement with CoQ10. More broadly, last summer's Clinical Practice Guidelines for diabetics from the American College of Physicians make no mention of CoQ10 supplements. What to do? When prescribed a drug, always ask your doctor if it depletes any nutrients and, if so, what are the long term consequences. Certainly, if prescribed a statin, ask, "Is CoQ10 right for me?" If you draw a blank with the doctor, try your pharmacist. Author and lawyer, Ken Baker is currently writing a book on 20th-century psychiatry. http://www.rxpgnews.com/printer_297.shtml E-mail Ken Baker at kenbaker@andso.com. By KEN BAKER New Perspectives Columnist Helpful information on quantity and quality and approved brands of coq10. More on subscription. http://www.consumerlabs.com/results/CoQ10.asp Zee > Statins, Dymelor, Micronase and Tolinase deplete coq10 > Glucophage depletes coq10 and B12 [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > > New Perspectives Columnist "Zee" <zwalanga@yahoo.com> wrote in part: >Helpful information on quantity and quality and approved brands of >coq10. More on subscription. > >http://www.consumerlabs.com/results/CoQ10.asp There is also the DSVP mark, as described at: http://www.uspverified.org/index.html -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA Has anyone seen a rating for NOW brand CoQ10? They make a 400mg capsule that is much more convenient when the theraputic dosage is 800-1200 mg/day. > Helpful information on quantity and quality and approved brands of > coq10. More on subscription. [quoted text clipped - 140 lines] >> >> New Perspectives Columnist > Another commonly prescribed diabetic drug, Glucophage, depletes not only CoQ10, > but also vitamin B12, a second risk factor for heart disease. I am skeptical of the claim that Glucophage (metformin) depletes CoQ10 (ubiquitin.) I couldn't find any such thing in PubMed. When I googled, I found several naturopathic sites making the same claim, but nothing that looked like an authorative site. Does anybody know more about this claim? Adam Becker The article writer has an e-mail address at the end of the post. Zee > > Another commonly prescribed diabetic drug, Glucophage, depletes not > only CoQ10, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Adam Becker just other Dr's words i believe its in the Harvard Cocktail for diabetics kate  SignatureJoin us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet /server irc.undernet.org --- /join #Diabetic-Talk More info: http://www.diabetic-talk.org/ I have no medical qualifications beyond my own experience. Choose your advisers carefully, because experience can be an expensive teacher. > > Another commonly prescribed diabetic drug, Glucophage, depletes not > only CoQ10, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Adam Becker http://cgibin.rcn.com/johncm/cgi-bin/index.pl?Site=Supplements nope......... i'm thinking of a different 'cocktail' but i have heard that glucophage depletes coQ10 kate SignatureJoin us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet /server irc.undernet.org --- /join #Diabetic-Talk More info: http://www.diabetic-talk.org/ I have no medical qualifications beyond my own experience. Choose your advisers carefully, because experience can be an expensive teacher. > just other Dr's words > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > > Adam Becker Tiger Lily, If you mean Arturo Rolla's cocktail, that was CAFE. Vitamin C, Aspirin, Folate, and Vitamin E. IMHO, the Vitamin E should be dropped. The evidence for E was always very flimsy, and more recent studies suggest that it actually increases cardiac risk above 400 IU per day. Aspirin is the best documented...Once you get started...don't stop!! Stopping the aspirin increases your risk of a heart attack or stroke by a factor of 3 over the next month. I haven't seen Co-Q on any cocktail lists, but I do recommend it for selected people on statins. I have never seen any published data about metformin affecting Co-Q levels. A quick PubMed search didn't pick up any hits, while there are plenty on statins and Co-Q. Perhaps we can suggest another acronym to Arturo, such as Q-FAC. Cheers, William C Biggs, MD > just other Dr's words > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> Adam Becker > Tiger Lily, > > If you mean Arturo Rolla's cocktail, that was CAFE. Vitamin C, Aspirin, > Folate, and Vitamin E. Dr Rolla downgraded the amount of Vitamine E to ? ? 200 mg /day based on latest tests......... but yes............ you got the right Cocktail i was referring to!!! > IMHO, the Vitamin E should be dropped. The evidence for E was always very > flimsy, and more recent studies suggest that it actually increases cardiac [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > William C Biggs, MD good to know someone else agrees on the Co-Q10 supplements....... thanks for the words, Dr Biggs kate > I haven't seen Co-Q on any cocktail lists, but I do recommend it for > selected people on statins. What are the criteria, if that doesn't push the limits of medical advice over the net? Signature------- Charly Coughran ccoughran@DELETE-TO-RESPOND-UCSD.EDU Charly, Co-Q is readily available OTC. Even Sam's Warehouse Club carries it now. If a patient on a statin complains of any myalgia or muscle weakness, I usually have them try 150mg a day. Depending on the severity of the complaints, I might check a CK level to look for muscle inflammation. If the CK is high, I will stop the statin. Statins can cause myalgias or muscle weakness even with a normal CK level. In that scenario Co-Q is often very beneficial, and can relieve the muscle complaints. I haven't heard of any adverse effects of Co-Q , other than some people have found their BG was lower while taking it. BTW, one of my attendings from medical school , Michael Brown, and Merck patented the concept of adding Co-Q to a statin back in 1990. Dr Brown shared the Nobel prize in Medicine with Joseph Goldstein for their discovery of the statin drugs. Look at patent 4,933,165 at www.uspto.gov . IMHO, the incidence of myalgia while taking statins is WAY under-reported. That's why I wrote the letter published in the Wall Street Journal criticizing Pfizer for its plans to only market torcetrapib in combination with atorvastatin (Lipitor). Those persons with muscle problems on statins will not be able to get torcetrapib. This scenario reminds me of the mid 80's when patients were telling their doctors that meds like Prozac reduced their libido, and the drug companies claimed it was no different than placebo. The concept of a combination Co-Q / statin drug makes a lot of sense to me. It makes a lot more sense than "Caduet" which is combines Norvasc and Lipitor, or the 2002 winner of "Stupidest Drug Marketing Idea of the Year Award".... Pravagard , which was simply a package with Pravachol and an aspirin tablet. Not in the same pill mind you, it was two separate tablets. Cheers, William C Biggs, MD >> I haven't seen Co-Q on any cocktail lists, but I do recommend it for >> selected people on statins. > > What are the criteria, if that doesn't push the limits of medical advice > over the net? |Charly, | [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] | |William C Biggs, MD Hi Doctor Biggs I've just changed from lipitor20 to pravachol20 to see if I can stop my occasional night leg cramps. I found this answer of yours interesting, so I went searching a little to see if I could find some dietary sources to meet the need, rather than supplements. In that process I came across this page, http://www.catie.ca/tu.nsf/0/9C59AE93CAEE073285256A8C006A007A?opendocument&langu age=english or http://tinyurl.com/448q3 on a site mainly related to AIDS/HIV. They reinforce what you said, but note: "Available forms and usage The body can make Q10 using the amino-acid tyrosine, B-complex vitamins and vitamin C. Foods that are good sources of Q10 are usually cholesterol-rich and include the following: pork beef chicken herring Bear in mind that it is almost impossible to obtain a high level ? 200 mg ? of Q10 in one day from food sources alone." Are you aware of any other dietary sources that would help in meeting the daily need without exceeding other limits like saturated fats or cholesterol? Cheers Alan, T2, Australia. SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. Alan, A normal body can manufacture CoQ10. That manufacturing is done in what is called the Mevalonate pathway. A body on statin drugs, such as Lipitor, Pravachol, Zocor, Crestor, Mevacor, Lescol, and the discontinued Baycol, is not a normal body. The Mevalonate pathway has a step that deals with HMG CoA Reductase that is inhibited or interrupted by statins (Thus the name: HMG CoA Reductase Inhibitors). That step is upstream in the pathway from where the CoQ10, so the process of producing the CoQ10 naturally is shut down before it starts. Thus, the need for a CoQ10 supplementation for people who take statins. For those who have already developed the side-effects, including mitochondrial damage, muscle damage, wasting and pain, nerve damage, memory loss, and many others, much larger doses of CoQ10 are advised. As with people who have mitochondrial damage from other causes, the statin damaged people are treated with 800 to 1,200mg per day (ideally taken in 2 doses) in hopes of halting or reversing the damage. > |Charly, > | [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > > Cheers Alan, T2, Australia. |Alan, | [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] |people are treated with 800 to 1,200mg per day (ideally taken in 2 doses) in |hopes of halting or reversing the damage. Thanks Sharon Now to read it again for some understanding:-) Cheers Alan, T2, Australia. SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. > Charly, > > Co-Q is readily available OTC. Even Sam's Warehouse Club carries it now. > > If a patient on a statin complains of any myalgia or muscle weakness, I > usually have them try 150mg a day. Thanks for the excellent and informative post. FYI -for severe statin muscle damage, with mitochondrial damage, there are doctors and mitochondrial specialists who are using as much as 800 mg to 1200 mg per day, concurrent with halting the statin. > Depending on the severity of the complaints, I might check a CK level to > look for muscle inflammation. If the CK is high, I will stop the statin. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> What are the criteria, if that doesn't push the limits of medical advice >> over the net? Sharon, Almost all of the anecdotal reports on Co-Q have different doses. The original patent from Merck suggested they were going to try 35mg. Co-Q has a long history of being the "non-vitamin". As you pointed out, most people can synthesize sufficient quantities of Co-Q, thus purists reject the using the term "Vitamin" with it. The theory is that it can't be a vitamin if you can make it yourself. Vitamins are only nutrients you can't make yourself. Of course, the fact that Vitamin D is manufactured in the body as well is rarely mentioned by the purists.... William C Biggs, MD >> Charly, >> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >>> What are the criteria, if that doesn't push the limits of medical advice >>> over the net? >Sharon, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >William C Biggs, MD I'd like to add that there are some specific applications where getting enough of the substance to the right place is critical, even if the body makes enough for normal purposes and even if additional supplements are taken beyond that. Co-Enzyme Q10 is remarkably effective at reducing inflamation of the gums caused by gingivitas. But you won't see much effect at all if you merely swallow a 50 mg supplement every day. That gets spread out throughout the body and very little actually gets to the gums. But if you take that 50 mg capsule, puncture the end and use the liquid to brush your teeth you will see dramatic results far quicker than simply brushing with toothpaste. I believe that current research has shown that inflamations almost anywhere in the body produce chemicals that are linked to triggering insulin resistance and thus type 2 diabetes. That appears to be why they are getting promising results with aspirin therapy. But while it is a good idea for anyone with gingivitas to correct that situation quickly, it is especially important for people with diabetes or pre-diabetes. But you have to get enough COQ10 to the right spot to do some good. > I believe that current research has shown that inflamations almost > anywhere in the body produce chemicals that are linked to triggering > insulin resistance and thus type 2 diabetes. That appears to be why > they are getting promising results with aspirin therapy. Has there been a study yet on the effect, if any, of fish oil on inflammation that leads to insulin resistance? What else besides Omega 3 fatty acids and aspirin might have an effect on inflammation? SignatureNo Husband Has Ever Been Shot While Doing The Dishes > > I believe that current research has shown that inflamations almost > > anywhere in the body produce chemicals that are linked to triggering [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > inflammation that leads to insulin resistance? What else besides Omega 3 > fatty acids and aspirin might have an effect on inflammation? Losing weight permanently. At His service, Andrew -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist ** Suggested Reading: (1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 (2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A (3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A (4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A (5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 >> I believe that current research has shown that inflamations almost >> anywhere in the body produce chemicals that are linked to triggering >> insulin resistance and thus type 2 diabetes. That appears to be why >> they are getting promising results with aspirin therapy. >Has there been a study yet on the effect, if any, of fish oil on >inflammation that leads to insulin resistance? What else besides Omega 3 >fatty acids and aspirin might have an effect on inflammation? Quite possibly any of the NSAIDs (Non-Steroid Anti-Inflammatory Drugs) could be of use, I don't think there has been a general test yet. (Naturally, the Steroid family of drugs might be useful - but those are prescription, not OTC.) But everything has tradeoffs. Aspirin can cause clotting/bleeding problems, ringing in the ears and other problems in the doses that they are currently talking about. That doesn't mean that everyone =would= have problems, but it does indicate that care should be taken. Aspirin has a high enough probability of significant side effects that it would be classified as a prescription drug if it were to be introduced under current rules - but it was "grandfathered" in as OTC because of its widespread use prior to the rules. It's really hard to kill yourself with aspirin, but you can hurt yourself. Naturally, removing the causes of inflammation is the best long term solution. Topical COQ10 may reduce the inflammation of current gingivitas, but good oral hygiene can prevent that inflammation long term. Regular low-impact aerobic exercise will help reduce weight and overall inflammation, but that effect takes a while to show up - so aspirin or other anti-inflammatories are being looked at for short term solutions. Quite possibly substances that increase blood flow could help the body to heal itself of some inflammations. Cayenne pepper, maybe? Niacin? I'm looking forward to seeing new test results as they come out. > What else besides Omega 3 > fatty acids and aspirin might have an effect on inflammation? Reducing reactive oxygen species (ROS) with antioxidants - Vitamins A,C, E, selenium, flavenoids. But remember, inflammation is just one of the factors involved in insulin resistance. Triglycerides appear to physically interfere with the insulin / receptor interaction. And the HISS data show that there's some other unidentified factor that mediates insulin senstivity. > Has there been a study yet on the effect, if any, of fish oil on > inflammation that leads to insulin resistance? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=15383514 or http://tinyurl.com/4d4jl Effect of a mediterranean-style diet on endothelial dysfunction and markers of vascular inflammation in the metabolic syndrome: a randomized trial. Esposito K, Marfella R, Ciotola M, Di Palo C, Giugliano F, Giugliano G, D'Armiento M, D'Andrea F, Giugliano D. Chair and Division of Metabolic Diseases, Second University of Naples, Naples, Italy. CONTEXT: The metabolic syndrome has been identified as a target for dietary therapies to reduce risk of cardiovascular disease; however, the role of diet in the etiology of the metabolic syndrome is poorly understood. OBJECTIVE: To assess the effect of a Mediterranean-style diet on endothelial function and vascular inflammatory markers in patients with the metabolic syndrome. DESIGN, SETTING, AND PATIENTS: Randomized, single-blind trial conducted from June 2001 to January 2004 at a university hospital in Italy among 180 patients (99 men and 81 women) with the metabolic syndrome, as defined by the Adult Treatment Panel III. INTERVENTIONS: Patients in the intervention group (n = 90) were instructed to follow a Mediterranean-style diet and received detailed advice about how to increase daily consumption of whole grains, fruits, vegetables, nuts, and olive oil; patients in the control group (n = 90) followed a prudent diet (carbohydrates, 50%-60%; proteins, 15%-20%; total fat, <30%). MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Nutrient intake; endothelial function score as a measure of blood pressure and platelet aggregation response to l-arginine; lipid and glucose parameters; insulin sensitivity; and circulating levels of high-sensitivity C-reactive protein (hs-CRP) and interleukins 6 (IL-6), 7 (IL-7), and 18 (IL-18). RESULTS: After 2 years, patients following the Mediterranean-style diet consumed more foods rich in monounsaturated fat, polyunsaturated fat, and fiber and had a lower ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fatty acids. Total fruit, vegetable, and nuts intake (274 g/d), whole grain intake (103 g/d), and olive oil consumption (8 g/d) were also significantly higher in the intervention group (P<.001). The level of physical activity increased in both groups by approximately 60%, without difference between groups (P =.22). Mean (SD) body weight decreased more in patients in the intervention group (-4.0 [1.1] kg) than in those in the control group (-1.2 [0.6] kg) (P<.001). Compared with patients consuming the control diet, patients consuming the intervention diet had significantly reduced serum concentrations of hs-CRP (P =.01), IL-6 (P =.04), IL-7 (P = 0.4), and IL-18 (P = 0.3), as well as decreased insulin resistance (P<.001). Endothelial function score improved in the intervention group (mean [SD] change, +1.9 [0.6]; P<.001) but remained stable in the control group (+0.2 [0.2]; P =.33). At 2 years of follow-up, 40 patients in the intervention group still had features of the metabolic syndrome, compared with 78 patients in the control group (P<.001). CONCLUSION: A Mediterranean-style diet might be effective in reducing the prevalence of the metabolic syndrome and its associated cardiovascular risk. > > What else besides Omega 3 > > fatty acids and aspirin might have an effect on inflammation? [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > the prevalence of the metabolic syndrome and its associated > cardiovascular risk. I suspect it was the weight loss and not the diet that reduced the prevalence of metabolic syndrome. At His service, Andrew -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist ** Suggested Reading: (1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 (2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A (3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A (4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A (5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 >>Mean (SD) body weight decreased more in patients in the intervention >> group (-4.0 [1.1] kg) than in those in the control group (-1.2 [0.6] >> kg) (P<.001). > I suspect it was the weight loss and not the diet that reduced the > prevalence of metabolic syndrome. The whole 1.1 kg???? Thank God you aren't my doctor. :: Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote: :: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] :: :: The whole 1.1 kg???? Thank God you aren't my doctor. I agree. There are actually a number of factors in the Mediterranean diet that reduce inflammation i.e. olive oil, whole grains, fish oils and higher antioxidant vitamin and flavonoid intake. SignatureJuhana Metabolic syndrome is defined by conditions directly related to central obesity (insulin resistance) and *not* inflammation. You will be in my prayers, dear Juhana, whom I love, in Christ's name. May you accept Him as your personal Lord and Savior, someday, so that you too will have eternal life and the wonderful riches of His everlasting kingdom. Here's how: http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 Please note that God truly made this special link describing that He is the great "I am" and that His message is as simple as the number 2 which is a number between 1 to 9 and reminds us of His 2 commandments, the 2 arms of the cross, the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2 finger sign of the Prince of Peace [who remains *V*ictorious over death and satan], and the 2PD Approach. Let it not ever be written that Christ did not make His presence known here on Usenet :-) Also, note that Exodus 16:16 continues to remind us that 16 oz plus 16 oz makes 2 pounds, which is "a certain measure of weight," which is what "omer" literally means in Hebrew. Enter the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp At His service, Andrew SignatureAndrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist ** Suggested Reading: (1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 (2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A (3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A (4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A (5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 > :: Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote: > :: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > -- > Juhana "Juhana Harju" <shantigiri@despammed.com> wrote in part: >:: Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote: >:: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >diet that reduce inflammation i.e. olive oil, whole grains, fish oils >and higher antioxidant vitamin and flavonoid intake. Uh...the abstract says they lost 2.8 kg more. In any case, they compared entire diets; there's no way to say what the effect of fish oil was in that study. -- Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA High-powered studies can detect small effects. Your doctor may not understand/know this if s/he does not have a research background. Fyi, using the God's name in vain is a sin. You will be in my prayers, dear Ozgirl, whom I love, in Christ's name. May you accept Him as your personal Lord and Savior, someday, so that you too will have eternal life and the fascinating riches of His everlasting kingdom. Here's how: http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 Please note that God truly made this special link describing that He is the great "I am" and that His message is as simple as the number 2 which is a number between 1 to 9 and reminds us of His 2 commandments, the 2 arms of the cross, the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2 finger sign of the Prince of Peace [who remains *V*ictorious over death and satan], and the 2PD Approach. Let it not ever be written that Christ did not make His presence known here on Usenet :-) Also, note that Exodus 16:16 continues to remind us that 16 oz plus 16 oz makes 2 pounds, which is "a certain measure of weight," which is what "omer" literally means in Hebrew. Enter the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp At His service, Andrew SignatureAndrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist ** Suggested Reading: (1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 (2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A (3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A (4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A (5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 > >>Mean (SD) body weight decreased more in patients in the > intervention [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > The whole 1.1 kg???? Thank God you aren't my doctor. > High-powered studies can detect small effects. Your doctor may not > understand/know this if s/he does not have a research background. > > Fyi, using the God's name in vain is a sin. Thanking God is not taking His name in vain, however did you figure that out. I am truly thankful to God that you are not my cardiologist. Consider yourself duly informed. It was your choice to use the information I have given to judge and convict yourself. You will remain in my prayers, dear neighbor, whom I love, in Lord Christ's holy name. May you accept Him as your personal Lord and Savior, someday, so that you too will have eternal life and the unimaginable riches of His infinite kingdom. Here's how: http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 Please note that God truly made this special link describing that He is the great "I am" and that His message is as simple as the number 2 which is a number between 1 to 9 and reminds us of His 2 commandments, the 2 arms of the cross, the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2 finger sign of the Prince of Peace [who remains *V*ictorious over death and satan], and the 2PD Approach. Let it not ever be written that Christ did not make His presence known here on Usenet :-) Also, note that Exodus 16:16 continues to remind us that 16 oz plus 16 oz makes 2 pounds, which is "a certain measure of weight," which is what "omer" literally means in Hebrew. Enter the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp At His service, Andrew SignatureAndrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist ** Suggested Reading: (1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 (2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A (3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A (4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A (5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 > > High-powered studies can detect small effects. Your > doctor may not [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > figure that out. I am truly thankful to God that you are not > my cardiologist. >Thanking God is not taking His name in vain, however did you >figure that out. I am truly thankful to God that you are not >my cardiologist. Ca n't imagine there are any patients. If indeed there still are then god help them lol, cause they sure gonna need it, Truth causes the untruthful to despair. You will remain in my prayers, dear George, whom I love, in Lord Christ's holy name. May you accept Him as your personal Lord and Savior, someday, so that you too will have eternal life and the wonderful riches of His everlasting kingdom. Here's how: http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 Please note that God truly made this special link describing that He is the great "I am" and that His message is as simple as the number 2 which is a number between 1 to 9 and reminds us of His 2 commandments, the 2 arms of the cross, the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2 finger sign of the Prince of Peace [who remains *V*ictorious over death and satan], and the 2PD Approach. Let it not ever be written that Christ did not make His presence known here on Usenet :-) Also, note that Exodus 16:16 continues to remind us that 16 oz plus 16 oz makes 2 pounds, which is "a certain measure of weight," which is what "omer" literally means in Hebrew. Enter the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp At His service, Andrew SignatureAndrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist ** Suggested Reading: (1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 (2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A (3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A (4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A (5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 > > >Thanking God is not taking His name in vain, however did you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Ca n't imagine there are any patients. If indeed there still are then > god help them lol, cause they sure gonna need it, ::: Has there been a study yet on the effect, if any, of fish oil on ::: inflammation that leads to insulin resistance? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] :: the prevalence of the metabolic syndrome and its associated :: cardiovascular risk. I would like to know what was the percentage change achieved by the Mediterranean diet. I ask this because I would like to compare it to the cholesterol lowering effect of the Portfolio diet, which reduces CRP about 30 percent - almost as much as statins. However, the Portfolio diet is a vegetarian diet and its CRP lowering effect can not be counted on fish oils. (I am not denying the inflammation reducing effect of fish oils.) Jenkins DJA et al., Effects of a Dietary Portfolio of Cholesterol-Lowering Foods vs. Lovastatin on Serum Lipids and C-Reactive Protein. JAMA Vol. 290 No. 4, July 23, 2003. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra ct&list_uids=12876093 SignatureJuhana Though not described in the abstract, there was 50-100% more weight loss with the Portfolio diet than with the control groups in the study you cite. Visceral adipose tissue is highly active in elevating levels of inflammatory cytokines. All studies to date are reporting a consistent dose response curve of increasing CRP with increasing visceral/central adiposity. You will be in my prayers, dear Juhana, whom I love, in Christ's name. May you accept Him as your personal Lord and Savior, someday, so that you too will have eternal life and the awesome riches of His everlasting kingdom. Here's how: http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 Please note that God truly made this special link describing that He is the great "I am" and that His message is as simple as the number 2 which is a number between 1 to 9 and reminds us of His 2 commandments, the 2 arms of the cross, the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2 finger sign of the Prince of Peace [who remains *V*ictorious over death and satan], and the 2PD Approach. Let it not ever be written that Christ did not make His presence known here on Usenet :-) Also, note that Exodus 16:16 continues to remind us that 16 oz plus 16 oz makes 2 pounds, which is "a certain measure of weight," which is what "omer" literally means in Hebrew. Enter the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp At His service, Andrew SignatureAndrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist ** Suggested Reading: (1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 (2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F325D1A (3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A (4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A (5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 > ::: Has there been a study yet on the effect, if any, of fish oil on > ::: inflammation that leads to insulin resistance? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > -- > Juhana > Charly, > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > doctors that meds like Prozac reduced their libido, and the drug companies > claimed it was no different than placebo. Thanks very much for sharing the myalgia opinion. Naturally, I agree from my husband's experience and from that of everyone we have interacted with since who has been on statins. Is it your opinion that this underreporting extends to the major statin studies? > The concept of a combination Co-Q / statin drug makes a lot of sense to > me. It makes a lot more sense than "Caduet" which is combines Norvasc and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> What are the criteria, if that doesn't push the limits of medical advice >> over the net? Sharon, My opinion is that the major studies do underreport the symptoms. I get way too many patients complaining about it to be the 2- 5% suggested in the package inserts. Usually they add that the same number of people had symptoms on placebo at this point. This was also the focus of my discussions with the Pfizer VP. At his level, all the information he is getting is that the incidence of muscle pain is very low, and the same as placebo. He can only believe the information provided to him. At my level, where I am listening to why they are no longer taking a statin medicine, the #1 reason is muscle pain or weakness. The #2 reason is cost. Don't get me wrong. My opinion is that statins have prevented hundreds of thousands of heart attacks at this point. Statins are a crucial part of the risk reduction necessary for many people with diabetes. I would like to see people get the benefits of statins without muscle complaints. That's where the Co-Q comes in. William C Biggs, MD >> Charly, >> [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >>> What are the criteria, if that doesn't push the limits of medical advice >>> over the net? > Sharon, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > William C Biggs, MD Thank you. (And, I'm certain your patients thank you, too). Do you also monitor your statin patients for neuropathy and cognitive decline? >>> Charly, >>> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] >>>> advice >>>> over the net? Dr. Biggs, Thanks for an informative post. > I haven't heard of any adverse effects of Co-Q I haven't either. But I wonder. Statins block the synthesis of melevolate. That in turn, blocks two other syntheses - formation of cholesterol and of CoQ10. Statins also, somehow, lower inflammation. My impression is that we don't really know the biochemical pathways of this effect. We don't know whether this is an effect of the cholesterol path, the CoQ10 path, or some other path not yet mapped. CoQ10 supplements counteract the CoQ10 stoppage. Could we thereby also counteracting the inflammation stoppage? What is our assurance that we aren't? Adam Becker |
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