 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / October 2004Question about diagnosis
I've been diagnosed with Congestive Heart Failure (3-4). I have no clue what the numbers mean, it's what my doctor wrote down on my diagnostic form. I've had severe edema for several weeks, gained 35 lbs in about a month. Before the CHF I had the long known and understood diagnosis of congenital hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. I've lived a pretty symptom free life with HCM for about 20 years now, but I'm in my early 50's and this is pretty much when they told me I'd start having problems. I used to be on Z-Beta because I also have asthma and that helped keep my blood pressure down as well as keep the wheezing to a minimum. I've now been taken off Z-Beta and put on the calcium channel blocker Verapamil, plus lasix and one mother of a potassium pill. In the last two weeks I've lost over 15 lbs and I'm still fairly swollen, so there's more to go. This is the first time my heart has been extremely symptomatic. I'm unable to walk pretty much anywhere without gasping for breath. I'm exhausted all the time. I can't do anything around the house other than to sit in my chair or lay in my bed. Any physical activity leaves me completely breathless and it takes quite a while for me to start breathing normally. While my doctor has given me a lot of information, we're still at the very beginning of this new path. I've got upcoming appointments with an electophysioligist to see if implanting a pacemaker is the next right step. I've got appointments with a nutritionist to learn how to live the salt free way (which I personally think is horrendous as I've also got insulin resistance and can't eat sweets either). I've got appointments with my primary care and cardiologists every other week. Pretty much all I do is go to doctor appointments. I just want to hear from people who have been at the same place, and how did you deal with this? I'm doing the usual things, updating my will, creating a new living will, changing our housing for one with no stairs, etc. And I'm filing for SSDI. But I'm just not sure how long one can go on with this type of heart. Does it every get better, or are we heading for transplant territory? My doctor keeps saying we're trying to find a baseline and then we'll know more. I don't have the patience to wait. Thanks in advance. Marjorie > I've been diagnosed with Congestive Heart Failure (3-4). I have no clue what > the numbers mean, it's what my doctor wrote down on my diagnostic form. It means that you have symptoms of heart failure with even just activities of daily living and sometimes even at rest (although not all the time). > I've had severe edema for several weeks, gained 35 lbs in about a month. > Before the CHF I had the long known and understood diagnosis of congenital [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > primary care and cardiologists every other week. Pretty much all I do is go > to doctor appointments. While you are visiting your doctors, would suggest you ask them about the 2PD Approach: http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp In my experience, this works every time to help people reach their ideal body weight which does "cure" metabolic syndrome (MetS) which is also known as insulin resistance. > I just want to hear from people who have been at the same place, and how did > you deal with this? I'm doing the usual things, updating my will, creating a > new living will, changing our housing for one with no stairs, etc. And I'm > filing for SSDI. But I'm just not sure how long one can go on with this type > of heart. Does it every get better, or are we heading for transplant > territory? Because of your insulin resistance, I would suspect you are overweight. If indeed you are, weight loss should improve your symptoms possibly postponing or even obviating the need for a heart transplant. > My doctor keeps saying we're trying to find a baseline and then > we'll know more. I don't have the patience to wait. Understandably. If you are overweight, which I suspect you are, you have something you can be proactive while waiting. Being at ideal body weight will reduce your risk of peri-operative complications if/when you will undergo a heart transplant. > Thanks in advance. You are welcome, Marjorie. All praises belong to my heavenly Father, Whom I love with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength :-) You will be in my prayers, dear Marjorie whom I love, in Christ's name. May He heal you as only He can per His will. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Hello Marjorie, My hypertropic cardiomyopathy did not manifest itself until I was 57 years ( I am now 64 years), and like your experience, its intrusion was somewhat dramatic - in my case I suddenly developed a dangerous heart rhythm (ventricular tachycardia) which can easily lead to cardiac arrest. I was lucky and made it to hospital where it was electrically converted to a normal rhythm, and I came under the care of a cardiologist who "specialised" in electrophysiology. Subsequently a defibrillator was implanted in my chest wall to deal with the VT. Regarding heart failure, I have had a few short episodes, and was not as disabled as you are.Other complications have been Atrial Fibrillation ( which is permanent and I can't take the drug that does seem to control it) and a leaky mitral valve. Like your situation I had to adjust to a whole new set of frightening life circumstances. To try and answer your question, ( about how one deals with such a personal upheaval), I tried to work on what I could to improve the situation of despair and dependency. Mentally, I resolved to meet it head on by really trying to face up to my circumstances.I made lists of things I thought I could realistically accomplish each day, and ticked them off. Physically, I did what exercise I could (you will need expert advise here. There are exercises for those confined to bed which can be of benefit too), and stuck to a fibre-rich, salt free and (almost) fat free diet.I was lucky in having great doctors, as faith in your medical advisor is essential. Because my physical activity was limited I had to develop new interests. I also started to appreciate nature more (looking and reading about plants, geology etc).Naturally I gave up smoking and drinking alcohol completely. Having a wonderful wife was a great advantage. Sleeping propped up by ordinary and banana-shaped pillows helped me lot, both in sleeping and general well being. I have two days per week of complete (bed) rest. Well Marjorie, these are some of my little routines which may help you. I do hope you start to feel an improvement soon. Its amazing what we can endure if there is HOPE. This is what you strive for. BTW I am not religious at all. Regards, Barry Sylva, NSW Australia > I've been diagnosed with Congestive Heart Failure (3-4). I have no clue what > the numbers mean, it's what my doctor wrote down on my diagnostic form. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Marjorie > Hello Marjorie, > My hypertropic cardiomyopathy did not manifest itself until I was 57 years ( I > am now 64 years), and like your experience, its intrusion was somewhat > dramatic - in my case I suddenly developed a dangerous heart rhythm (ventricular > tachycardia) which can easily lead to cardiac arrest. Correct. > I was lucky and made it to > hospital where it was electrically converted to a normal rhythm, and I came > under the care of a cardiologist who "specialised" in electrophysiology. I don't believe in luck. I do believe that God planned for you to survive (perhaps even for this very day when you would share your story with Majorie and the countless other lurkers with similar difficulties). > Subsequently a defibrillator was implanted in my chest wall to deal with the VT. > Regarding heart failure, I have had a few short episodes, and was not as [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > fibre-rich, salt free and (almost) fat free diet.I was lucky in having great > doctors, as faith in your medical advisor is essential. See above. > Because my physical > activity was limited I had to develop new interests. I also started to > appreciate nature more (looking and reading about plants, geology etc).Naturally > I gave up smoking and drinking alcohol completely. Good. > Having a wonderful wife was a > great advantage. Sleeping propped up by ordinary and banana-shaped pillows [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > hope you start to feel an improvement soon. Its amazing what we can endure if > there is HOPE. Yes, especially with God's help. > This is what you strive for. BTW I am not religious at all. You are blessed because of the love in your heart that you have for others who are your neighbors. You are closer to the kingdom of God than you think. That love you have is from Christ. Why don't you go all the way and accept Him ? http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 > Regards, > Barry Sylva > NSW Australia Thank you for sharing your story ! You have been blessed and you have in turn become a blessing to others. You will be in my prayers, dear Barry whom I love, in Christ's name. May He heal you as only He can: http://www.heartmdphd.com/healer.asp so that you can continue to glorify my heavenly Father, Whom I love with all my heart, soul, mind and strength :-) Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Once again a. chung has taken an off topic single group posting and crossposted it to severl groups for which it is not obviously related to their content. As per prediction, this behavior is in response for having been repeatily brought up short for this behavior and the retribution he brings to bear to show who is in control. He says he does not crosspost, he does. He says he will stop if asked, he did not recently. He seeks by deceptive methods of rhetoric to misdirect attention away from his behavior. He offers lame excuses in place of an appology or sincere explanation. Considering all of these contridictions of word and deed, what does this make him? Once again a. chung has taken an off topic single group posting and crossposted it to severl groups for which it is not obviously related to their content. As per prediction, this behavior is in response for having been repeatily brought up short for this behavior and the retribution he brings to bear to show who is in control. He says he does not crosspost, he does. He says he will stop if asked, he did not recently. He seeks by deceptive methods of rhetoric to misdirect attention away from his behavior. He offers lame excuses in place of an appology or sincere explanation. Considering all of these contridictions of word and deed, what does this make him? >Once again a. chung has taken an off topic single group posting and >crossposted it to severl groups for which it is not obviously related [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >an appology or sincere explanation. Considering all of these >contridictions of word and deed, what does this make him? A typical Christian hypocrite? Marjorie, I did not mention the support I derived from this group, but you have illustrated it very well Andrew, by your caring about Marjorie, and being able to empathsize with my situation. A lady from Canada gave me enormous support, when later on I suffered a stroke .(This was not directly related to the HCM, so don't be too concerned about this outcome). So you already have some other people aware of what you are dealing with, and willing to support you when they can. Although I am a non-believer, I appreciate Andrew's caring contributions to the group, and thus derive support myself. I am sure you will feel the same, whether or not you are a believer. Why cannot Dr Chung proclaim his religious beliefs as well as his medical knowledge? "Healing"is the link, so I find it very difficult to understand the people who criticise(sometimes verging on abuse) Andrew for his beliefs. Another very important point Marjorie ( although not easily accomplished during some of the very rough periods) is to take "one day( even one hour) at a time". When I was able to focus my attention like this I found it extremely beneficial, especially when I was very concerned about a medical consultation, procedure,test results etc.). Try and stop your mind from racing all over the place. All the best, Regards, Barry > > Hello Marjorie, > > My hypertropic cardiomyopathy did not manifest itself until I was 57 years ( I [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > Is this spam? > http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >Subject: Re: Question about diagnosis >From: "Barry" pilbaradingo@ozemail.com.au >Date: 10/26/2004 4:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <PnBfd.7$Lu5.609@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au> >Why cannot Dr >Chung proclaim his religious beliefs as well as his medical knowledge? he can where such remarks are appropriate they are not on a medical group ESP when he states that ONLY Christian practitioners can be CARING that is NOT what good doctors are all about Chung is all about Chung hawki..... Hawki, This is a support group for those with serious and/or chronic cardiac health problems, NOT "a medical group". The group is lucky to have as a contributor a qualified medical practitioner. Despite my personal differences with the good doctor about religious beliefs, I experience him primarily as a caring contributor with a spiritual influence. Regards Again, Barry > >Subject: Re: Question about diagnosis > >From: "Barry" pilbaradingo@ozemail.com.au [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > hawki..... > Hawki, > This is a support group for those with serious and/or chronic cardiac [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > him primarily as a caring contributor with a spiritual influence. > Regards Again, Barry I experience him as a religious kook who happens to be a doctor and for some bizarre reason spends way too much time posting his strange inanities in a newsgroup. BTW, the "med" in sci.med.cardiology doesn't stand for "support". This group is anything *but* a support group. You have to go to one of the moderated websites for that. L. >Subject: Re: Question about diagnosis >From: listener listener@nospam.net >Date: 10/26/2004 8:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <Xns958FF5EDC5Esome1outthere@38.144.126.79> >Despite my personal >> differences with the good doctor about religious beliefs, I experience >> him primarily as a caring contributor with a spiritual influence. >> Regards Again, Barry sorry Barry truly proletizing..and belittling other practioners who are NOT Christian put Chung in a category of being an arrogant SOB >I experience him as a religious kook who happens to be a doctor and for >some bizarre reason spends way too much time posting his strange inanities >in a newsgroup. > >BTW, the "med" in sci.med.cardiology doesn't stand for "support". I agree can we vote him off the Island?? hawki..... > >Subject: Re: Question about diagnosis > >From: listener listener@nospam.net [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > hawki..... G'Day Mate. You don't have to vote - I am getting off anyway as far as this agenda goes. I just wonder what Marjorie thinks of all this ?? If you need any support let me know ? Take it easy, Barry Barry I do not know if we are reading the same post from this nut but all his medical advice consists of go see your doctor, enter the 2PD approach, and religious bullshit. In fact since he has hijacked this group the amount of medical dialogue has diminished to practically nothing. There also used to be other "real" doctors who hung around here ands actually contributed something worthwhile, but they have long gone. If you find Chung's contribution worthwhile and meaningful, then you must be at a real loss for medical care. It seems to me I heard somewhere that Barry wrote in article <YQEfd.122$Lu5.2044@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>: >Hawki, >This is a support group for those with serious and/or chronic cardiac health [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >contributor with a spiritual influence. >Regards Again, Barry Actually, Barry, this group was founded by a number of medical professionals for the purpose of discussing all aspects of cardiology and sharing their experiences; they made this clear in their founding documents. Unfortunately, unmoderated newsgroups do not have any ability to control off-topic messages beyond complaints to ISPs and the use of kill files. The founding documents are available at http://open-systems.ufl.edu/mirrors/ftp.isc.org/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/s ci/sci.med.cardiology http://tinyurl.com/3p67j http://shorterlink.com/?4SYI82 My problem with the "caring contributor with a spiritual influence" is that he intermingles the two in an irrational way. Surely there is an absolute difference between curing or treating diseases or malfunctions of the heart, a physical organ, and God's healing of hearts, where the Biblical allusion is to man's psychological and rational being*. ISTM he sometimes comes dangerously close to implying that they are one and the same. * Even allowing for the few miracles described in the Bible, of which none involved cardiac issues, AFAIR. I'm unaware of any modern miracles where a diseased heart was made whole. >> >Subject: Re: Question about diagnosis >> >From: "Barry" pilbaradingo@ozemail.com.au >> >Date: 10/26/2004 4:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time >> >Message-id: <PnBfd.7$Lu5.609@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au> >> >Why cannot Dr >> >Chung proclaim his religious beliefs as well as his medical knowledge? There is thoughtful proclaiming and there is proclaiming that invites protest and resistance. However, there is also the teaching [Matthew 6:1,2]: "Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven." >> he can >> where such remarks are appropriate >> they are not on a medical group >> ESP when he states that ONLY Christian practitioners can be CARING >> that is NOT what good doctors are all about >> Chung is all about Chung >> hawki.....  SignatureDon donkirk@covad.net > It seems to me I heard somewhere that Barry wrote in article > <YQEfd.122$Lu5.2044@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > none involved cardiac issues, AFAIR. I'm unaware of any modern > miracles where a diseased heart was made whole. For a long time Dr. Chung posted informative, unremarkable posts with no overt religious content whatsoever. Within the past year or so, his posts have become polluted with inane pseudo-religous nonsense that he has needlessly cross-posted. Dr. Chung was repeatedly and politely asked to nix the religious stuff by *many* posters who found it off-topic, offensive or just plain annoying. He as refused to do so. Personally, I think Dr. Chung is mentally unbalanced and this newsgroup would be better off without his participation. L. > > It seems to me I heard somewhere that Barry wrote in article > > <YQEfd.122$Lu5.2044@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > have become polluted with inane pseudo-religous nonsense that he has > needlessly cross-posted. Sorry, my being openly Christian has been bothering you for more than a year. > Dr. Chung was repeatedly and politely asked to nix the religious stuff by > *many* posters who found it off-topic, offensive or just plain annoying. > He as refused to do so. Yes, it has been my choice to remain openly Christian. > Personally, I think Dr. Chung is mentally > unbalanced and this newsgroup would be better off without his > participation. You are entitled to your opinion. Thanks for sharing it, Frank. > L. You remain in my prayers, dear Frank whom I love, in Christ's name. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 I stand corrected on details concerning the origin of this group.At the moment it is neither a "professional's" group or a "support" group. Ideally the group should function to supply knowledge, opinion and support to those with cardiac related medical problems. Obviously, qualified medical advise should be of great value, but people relating their own experiences is the hub. Occasionally, this will mean people giving medical advise or opinion based on their own experience, which I would not condemn as long as it was clear that they were not medically qualified. Posting to this group, at the present time, is not likely to provide support or knowlege. It is more likely to be a confusing anxiety-provoking experience: a very sorry state of affairs. Maybe Andrew Chung is our scapegoat. He would be a threatening person to some - a DOCTOR with GOD on his side. Are we simply the weak, sick, ignorant, subservient, feeble-minded patients? Yes, I am off-topic, but I wish I was'nt. I won't be again. Regards, Barry NSW Australia > > > It seems to me I heard somewhere that Barry wrote in article > > > <YQEfd.122$Lu5.2044@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>: [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > Is this spam? > http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 alas....... Barry no one can reply without the wrath of Chung and the potential of being put into his cyberstalkers web page or his libel web page andie baby has effectively shut down this newsgroup to all and sundry watch him call me a Christian hater for this post (that has NOTHING to do with religion) sorry Barry........ try sci.med instead.... hopefully andie babie won't reply there and the Dr's will good luck kate > I stand corrected on details concerning the origin of this group.At the moment > it is neither a "professional's" group or a "support" group. Ideally the group [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > > > > > > > The founding documents are available at http://open-systems.ufl.edu/mirrors/ftp.isc.org/usenet/news.announce.ne > > > > wgroups/sci/sci.med.cardiology http://tinyurl.com/3p67j > > > > http://shorterlink.com/?4SYI82 [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Is this spam? > > http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 > alas....... Barry > > no one can reply without the wrath of Chung and the potential of being put > into his cyberstalkers web page or his libel web page Writing from the side of your mouth again, eh, Kate. > andie baby has effectively shut down this newsgroup to all and sundry Don't have that power. > watch him call me a Christian hater for this post (that has NOTHING to do > with religion) You've made many unfulfilled predictions. What is one more? > sorry Barry........ try sci.med instead.... hopefully andie babie won't > reply there and the Dr's will Yes, Barry would meet your friend Dr. Jai Maharaj there in sci.med :-) > good luck > > kate You remain in my prayers, dear Kate whom I love, in Christ's name. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 sneaked thru my kf again...as he continually changes his addy very very sick guy... hawki..... > sneaked thru my kf again...as he continually changes his addy Nope. Still the same email addresses (either this one or nospam6). > very very sick guy... As if truthfulness were an illness. Sorry my being openly Christian continues to bother you. > hawki..... You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love, in Christ's name. May you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, someday, so that you too will escape satan's rule and torment of your soul after you die. Please do consider the following before it is too late: http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 > I stand corrected on details concerning the origin of this group.At the moment > it is neither a "professional's" group or a "support" group. Ideally the group [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Posting to this group, at the present time, is not likely to provide support or > knowlege. It will while I am here, God willing. > It is more likely to be a confusing anxiety-provoking experience: a > very sorry state of affairs. Maybe Andrew Chung is our scapegoat. He would be a > threatening person to some - a DOCTOR with GOD on his side. Are we simply the > weak, sick, ignorant, subservient, feeble-minded patients? No. You are my neighbors whom I love :-) > Yes, I am off-topic, but I wish I was'nt. You are discussing the purpose of SMC. That is actually on-topic for SMC. > I won't be again. Ime, if there is someone who disagrees with you, there will be someone accusing you of being off-topic. > Regards, Barry > NSW Australia You remain in my prayers, dear Barry whom I love, in Christ's name. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 cc'd by email Look a.shole - it is bad enough that the Chung troll crossposts his crap all over the internet - I can nitfile him. It is when people like YOU crosspost discussions of his crap to all the groups which don't care and are NOT interested - so please. f.ck OFF and take your "chung" with you. > I stand corrected on details concerning the origin of this group.At the moment > it is neither a "professional's" group or a "support" group. Ideally the group [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] >>Is this spam? >>http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Signature"...in addition to being foreign territory the past is, as history, a hall of mirrors that reflect the needs of souls observing from the present" Glen Cook > cc'd by email > > Look a.shole - it is bad enough that the Chung troll crossposts his crap > all over the internet - I can nitfile him. It is when people like YOU > crosspost discussions of his crap to all the groups which don't care and > are NOT interested - so please. f.ck OFF and take your "chung" with you. Sorry my being openly Christian bothers you so terribly. You will be in my prayers, dear Ted whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 > I stand corrected on details concerning the origin of this group.At the moment > it is neither a "professional's" group or a "support" group. Ideally the group > should function to supply knowledge, opinion and support to those with cardiac > related medical problems. Then please cut extra newsgroups (like alt.support.diabetes) out of the header when you reply. Please confine your discussions to the groups that are interested. Many thanks. SignatureDavida Chazan (The Chocolate Lady) <davidac AT jdc DOT org DOT il> ~*~*~*~*~*~ "What you see before you, my friend, is the result of a lifetime of chocolate." --Katharine Hepburn (May 12, 1907 - June 29, 2003) ~*~*~*~*~*~ Links to my published poetry - http://davidachazan.homestead.com/ ~*~*~*~*~*~ > Please confine your discussions to the groups that are interested. Seems that "news@watcher" remains interested. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.