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Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / September 2004Just to let you know Mark was all clear Andrew...
Hi Andrew, Just to let you know that Mark had his tests and the cardiologist gave him the all clear. Also, his PVCs have settled since he's started regular meditation techniques that I taught him, which also seem to have brought his BP down too - and he's feeling much better. Thanks for your opinions and kind thoughts. Mozz x Hi, I would sure love to know the meditation techniques that will bring the BP down. Share? I've been on so many different medication trying to keep mine down. (I have Afib).. Thanks, Nel > Just to let you know that Mark had his tests and the cardiologist gave > him the all clear. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Mozz x >Hi, > I would sure love to know the meditation techniques that will bring the BP >down. Share? I've been on so many different medication trying to keep mine >down. (I have Afib).. > Thanks, Nel Hi Nel, Sorry to hear about your BP problem. I hope the following will help you my friend. The purpose of meditation is to make our mind calm and peaceful. If our mind is peaceful, we will be free from worries and mental discomfort, and so we will experience true happiness; but if our mind is not peaceful, we will find it very difficult to be happy, even if we are living in the very best conditions. If we train in meditation, our mind will gradually become more and more peaceful, and we will experience a purer and purer form of happiness. Eventually, we will be able to stay happy all the time, even in the most difficult circumstances. Usually we find it difficult to control our mind. It seems as if our mind is like a balloon in the wind - blown here and there by external circumstances. If things go well, our mind is happy, but if they go badly, it immediately becomes unhappy. For example, if we get what we want, such as a new possession or a new partner, we become excited and cling to them tightly. However, since we cannot have everything we want, and since we will inevitably be separated from the friends and possessions we currently enjoy, this mental stickiness, or attachment, serves only to cause us pain. On the other hand, if we do not get what we want, or if we lose something that we like, we become despondent or irritated. For example, if we are forced to work with a colleague whom we dislike, we will probably become irritated and feel aggrieved, with the result that we will be unable to work with him or her efficiently and our time at work will become stressful and unrewarding. Such fluctuations of mood arise because we are too closely involved in the external situation. We are like a child making a sandcastle who is excited when it is first made, but who becomes upset when it is destroyed by the incoming tide. By training in meditation, we create an inner space and clarity that enables us to control our mind regardless of the external circumstances. Gradually we develop mental equilibrium, a balanced mind that is happy all the time, rather than an unbalanced mind that oscillates between the extremes of excitement and despondency. If we train in meditation systematically, eventually we will be able to eradicate from our mind the delusions that are the causes of all our problems and suffering. In this way, we will come to experience a permanent inner peace, known as "liberation" or "nirvana". Then, day and night in life after life, we will experience only peace and happiness. Breathing Meditations Generally, the purpose of breathing meditation is to calm the mind and develop inner peace. A Simple Breathing Meditation The first stage of meditation is to stop distractions and make our mind clearer and more lucid. This can be accomplished by practising a simple breathing meditation. We choose a quiet place to meditate and sit in a comfortable position. We can sit in the traditional cross-legged posture or in any other position that is comfortable. If we wish, we can sit in a chair. The most important thing is to keep our back straight to prevent our mind from becoming sluggish or sleepy. We sit with our eyes partially closed and turn our attention to our breathing. We breathe naturally, preferably through the nostrils, without attempting to control our breath, and we try to become aware of the sensation of the breath as it enters and leaves the nostrils. This sensation is our object of meditation. We should try to concentrate on it to the exclusion of everything else. At first, our mind will be very busy, and we might even feel that the meditation is making our mind busier; but in reality we are just becoming more aware of how busy our mind actually is. There will be a great temptation to follow the different thoughts as they arise, but we should resist this and remain focused single-pointedly on the sensation of the breath. If we discover that our mind has wandered and is following our thoughts, we should immediately return it to the breath. We should repeat this as many times as necessary until the mind settles on the breath. If we practise patiently in this way, gradually our distracting thoughts will subside and we will experience a sense of inner peace and relaxation. Our mind will feel lucid and spacious and we will feel refreshed. When the sea is rough, sediment is churned up and the water becomes murky, but when the wind dies down the mud gradually settles and the water becomes clear. In a similar way, when the otherwise incessant flow of our distracting thoughts is calmed through concentrating on the breath, our mind becomes unusually lucid and clear. We should stay with this state of mental calm for a while. Even though breathing meditation is only a preliminary stage of meditation, it can be quite powerful. We can see from this practice that it is possible to experience inner peace and contentment just by controlling the mind, without having to depend at all upon external conditions. When the turbulence of distracting thoughts subsides and our mind becomes still, a deep happiness and contentment naturally arises from within. This feeling of contentment and well-being helps us to cope with the busyness and difficulties of daily life. So much of the stress and tension we normally experience comes from our mind, and many of the problems we experience, including ill health, are caused or aggravated by this stress. Just by doing breathing meditation for ten or fifteen minutes each day, we will be able to reduce this stress. We will experience a calm, spacious feeling in the mind, and many of our usual problems will fall away. Difficult situations will become easier to deal with, we will naturally feel warm and well disposed towards other people, and our relationships with others will gradually improve. Try this simple meditation each day for at least 10-15 minutes to start with, and if you can manage longer, all the better, but don't 'force' yourself if you really don't feel in the mood. Better to wait and return to it the next day. Aim to eventually reach 45 minutes maximum each day if you can. I hope this helps Nel. Mozz x > >Hi, > > I would sure love to know the meditation techniques that will bring the BP [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > The purpose of meditation is to make our mind calm and peaceful. Christ has this effect on people without meditation. > If > our mind is peaceful, we will be free from worries and mental > discomfort, and so we will experience true happiness; Christ tells us not to worry, that He is our Shepherd and we shall not ever want. > but if our mind > is not peaceful, we will find it very difficult to be happy, even if > we are living in the very best conditions. If we train in meditation, > our mind will gradually become more and more peaceful, and we will > experience a purer and purer form of happiness. That is an unrealizable promise of self-worship. > Eventually, we will be > able to stay happy all the time, even in the most difficult > circumstances. Are you staying happy all the time? > Usually we find it difficult to control our mind. It seems as if our > mind is like a balloon in the wind - blown here and there by external > circumstances. If things go well, our mind is happy, but if they go > badly, it immediately becomes unhappy. For example, if we get what we > want, such as a new possession or a new partner, we become excited and > cling to them tightly. Not for those who walk with Christ. Christ teaches us that just as He is not of this world, in our choice to follow Him, we are no longer of this world. Being not of this world, we have *no* attachment to worldy "possessions." Instead, we are stewards in this world, entrusted by God with things that He would have us use to glorify Him. > However, since we cannot have everything we > want, and since we will inevitably be separated from the friends and > possessions we currently enjoy, this mental stickiness, or attachment, > serves only to cause us pain. Such are the wages of sin. > On the other hand, if we do not get what > we want, or if we lose something that we like, we become despondent or > irritated. For example, if we are forced to work with a colleague whom > we dislike, we will probably become irritated and feel aggrieved, with > the result that we will be unable to work with him or her efficiently > and our time at work will become stressful and unrewarding. Such are the wages of sin. > Such fluctuations of mood arise because we are too closely involved in > the external situation. We are like a child making a sandcastle who is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > an unbalanced mind that oscillates between the extremes of excitement > and despondency. Are you happy all the time, Mozz? > If we train in meditation systematically, eventually we will be able > to eradicate from our mind the delusions that are the causes of all > our problems and suffering. In this way, we will come to experience a > permanent inner peace, known as "liberation" or "nirvana". Then, day > and night in life after life, we will experience only peace and > happiness. In my walk with Christ, I already experience unimaginable peace and happiness. Are you experiencing only peace and happiness these days, Mozz? > Breathing Meditations > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > I hope this helps Nel. I will pray for dear Nel whom I love. I will also pray for you, dear Mozz, whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >> The purpose of meditation is to make our mind calm and peaceful. > >Christ has this effect on people without meditation. People are free to choose either approach and they will see for themselves which approach works best for them. >> If >> our mind is peaceful, we will be free from worries and mental >> discomfort, and so we will experience true happiness; > >Christ tells us not to worry, that He is our Shepherd and we shall not >ever want. He does. And yet people are still found wanting. >> but if our mind >> is not peaceful, we will find it very difficult to be happy, even if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >That is an unrealizable promise of self-worship. Many have realized such pure happiness. Look to His Holiness the Dalai Lama as one famous example among many. >> Eventually, we will be >> able to stay happy all the time, even in the most difficult >> circumstances. > >Are you staying happy all the time? I am :-) >> Usually we find it difficult to control our mind. It seems as if our >> mind is like a balloon in the wind - blown here and there by external [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >in this world, entrusted by God with things that He would have us use to >glorify Him. Are you saying you are not of this world Andrew? >> However, since we cannot have everything we >> want, and since we will inevitably be separated from the friends and >> possessions we currently enjoy, this mental stickiness, or attachment, >> serves only to cause us pain. > >Such are the wages of sin. Buddhism does not recognise your concept of sin. >> On the other hand, if we do not get what >> we want, or if we lose something that we like, we become despondent or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Such are the wages of sin. Buddhism does not recognise your concept of sin. >> Such fluctuations of mood arise because we are too closely involved in >> the external situation. We are like a child making a sandcastle who is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Are you happy all the time, Mozz? Yes I am :-) >> If we train in meditation systematically, eventually we will be able >> to eradicate from our mind the delusions that are the causes of all [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >In my walk with Christ, I already experience unimaginable peace and >happiness. I am glad you experience unimaginable peace and happiness. >Are you experiencing only peace and happiness these days, Mozz? Yes I am :-) >> Breathing Meditations >> [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > >I will also pray for you, dear Mozz, whom I love. You remain in my dedications also Andrew, as do your family. May all beings follow the dharma and realize true happiness! XXX > >> The purpose of meditation is to make our mind calm and peaceful. > > > >Christ has this effect on people without meditation. > > People are free to choose either approach and they will see for > themselves which approach works best for them. Yes, it remains there choice. > >> If > >> our mind is peaceful, we will be free from worries and mental [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > He does. And yet people are still found wanting. Ime, those who want have not accepted Christ. > >> but if our mind > >> is not peaceful, we will find it very difficult to be happy, even if [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Many have realized such pure happiness. Look to His Holiness the Dalai > Lama as one famous example among many. I do not see what you seem to be seeing. > >> Eventually, we will be > >> able to stay happy all the time, even in the most difficult [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I am :-) Your language suggested otherwise. > >> Usually we find it difficult to control our mind. It seems as if our > >> mind is like a balloon in the wind - blown here and there by external [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Are you saying you are not of this world Andrew? Yes. > >> However, since we cannot have everything we > >> want, and since we will inevitably be separated from the friends and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Buddhism does not recognise your concept of sin. That is understandable. It is God's concept and not buddha's. > >> On the other hand, if we do not get what > >> we want, or if we lose something that we like, we become despondent or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Buddhism does not recognise your concept of sin. See above. > >> Such fluctuations of mood arise because we are too closely involved in > >> the external situation. We are like a child making a sandcastle who is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Yes I am :-) Your language suggests otherwise. > >> If we train in meditation systematically, eventually we will be able > >> to eradicate from our mind the delusions that are the causes of all [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I am glad you experience unimaginable peace and happiness. I wish the same for you. > >Are you experiencing only peace and happiness these days, Mozz? > > Yes I am :-) I sense otherwise. > >> Breathing Meditations > >> [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > You remain in my dedications also Andrew, as do your family. Thanks for the "dedications." > May all beings follow the dharma and realize true happiness! May all beings accept Christ so that they will have eternal life and His everlasting peace. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >> >Christ tells us not to worry, that He is our Shepherd and we shall not >> >ever want. >> >> He does. And yet people are still found wanting. > >Ime, those who want have not accepted Christ. I have not accepted Christ, yet am not found wanting :-) >> Many have realized such pure happiness. Look to His Holiness the Dalai >> Lama as one famous example among many. >I do not see what you seem to be seeing. I see a happy, focused, compassionate, wise and humble man who makes no claims of 'special divinity' or 'superhuman powers' yet reflects the highest potential attainable to every single one of us if we follow the wisdom of the dharma. >> >Are you staying happy all the time? >> >> I am :-) > >Your language suggested otherwise. Oh. Can you illustrate where my language suggests otherwise please, I would be most interested to see how? >> >Christ teaches us that just as He is not of this world, in our choice to >> >follow Him, we are no longer of this world. Being not of this world, we [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >Yes. Not of this world and yet in it? Can you elaborate this difference further? When you say 'this world' what exactly determines the parameters that constitute 'this world' and the 'world you live in'? >> Buddhism does not recognise your concept of sin. > >That is understandable. It is God's concept and not buddha's. Ah. That explains it then. As far as I am concerned as a buddhist, there are no such things as 'sins' in the Judao-Christian sense of the concept - ie: a seperation from God as there is no God. >> >In my walk with Christ, I already experience unimaginable peace and >> >happiness. >> >> I am glad you experience unimaginable peace and happiness. > >I wish the same for you. Thank you for your kind wish. I also experience perfect peace and happiness without recourse to a belief in God :-) >> >Are you experiencing only peace and happiness these days, Mozz? >> >> Yes I am :-) > >I sense otherwise. Your senses are mistaken my friend. >> May all beings follow the dharma and realize true happiness! Mozz x > >> >Christ tells us not to worry, that He is our Shepherd and we shall not > >> >ever want. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I have not accepted Christ, yet am not found wanting :-) Then why have you returned? > >> Many have realized such pure happiness. Look to His Holiness the Dalai > >> Lama as one famous example among many. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the highest potential attainable to every single one of us if we > follow the wisdom of the dharma. Christ teaches us that we each have the potential to receive eternal life and the unimaginable riches of His everlasting kingdom if we choose to accept Him as our Lord and Savior. > >> >Are you staying happy all the time? > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Oh. Can you illustrate where my language suggests otherwise please, I > would be most interested to see how? It is God's gift of truth discernment at work. > >> >Christ teaches us that just as He is not of this world, in our choice to > >> >follow Him, we are no longer of this world. Being not of this world, we [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Not of this world and yet in it? Correct. > Can you elaborate this difference > further? If I were of this world, I would be destroyed when the world is inevitably destroyed. > When you say 'this world' what exactly determines the > parameters that constitute 'this world' and the 'world you live in'? God determines the world for indeed He created it. > >> Buddhism does not recognise your concept of sin. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > there are no such things as 'sins' in the Judao-Christian sense of the > concept - ie: a seperation from God as there is no God. Your choice. > >> >In my walk with Christ, I already experience unimaginable peace and > >> >happiness. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thank you for your kind wish. I also experience perfect peace and > happiness without recourse to a belief in God :-) I sense otherwise. > >> >Are you experiencing only peace and happiness these days, Mozz? > >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Your senses are mistaken my friend. Your judgment. > >> May all beings follow the dharma and realize true happiness! > > Mozz x You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Hello again Andrew, >> I have not accepted Christ, yet am not found wanting :-) > >Then why have you returned? You may have forgotten this fact but sci.med.cardiology is a newsgroup offering advice for people requiring opinions on cardiological issues. I 'returned' seeking your medical opinion on Mark's condition. From that point on, I have answered enquiries from Nell and yourself. See - simple if you open your eyes dear neighbour :-) >Christ teaches us that we each have the potential to receive eternal life and >the unimaginable riches of His everlasting kingdom if we choose to accept Him as >our Lord and Savior. Yes, the Christian approach has always offered much, but over the years has lost the rigourous framework to show practitioner's the "how". Thus it has turned into a quasi-mystical-childlike religion where one needs to believe in a kind of Santa Claus God who will do everything for you regards your salvation (as long as you don't break his rules etc) but you ultimately take no responsibility for yourself. >> Oh. Can you illustrate where my language suggests otherwise please, I >> would be most interested to see how? > >It is God's gift of truth discernment at work. Therefore you have proven to me that God does not exist as the 'discernment' was totally in error. >> Can you elaborate this difference >> further? > >If I were of this world, I would be destroyed when the world is inevitably >destroyed. If this world were destroyed by say a comet or asteroid strike, you would be destroyed Andrew. Just like the dinasours. >> >> >Are you experiencing only peace and happiness these days, Mozz? >> >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Your judgment. It is a fact my friend. I know how well I am feeling, you do not. :-) May you find true wisdom, peace and liberation soon. Mozz x > Hello again Andrew, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > offering advice for people requiring opinions on cardiological issues. > I 'returned' seeking your medical opinion on Mark's condition. Did you receive what you wanted? > From that point on, I have answered enquiries from Nell and yourself. > See - simple if you open your eyes dear neighbour :-) That would be an answer to a different question. Since you seem eager to answer questions today: Do you know why you exist? > >Christ teaches us that we each have the potential to receive eternal life and > >the unimaginable riches of His everlasting kingdom if we choose to accept Him as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > years has lost the rigourous framework to show practitioner's the > "how". The "rigorous framework" is an illusion created by those who have no faith. > Thus it has turned into a quasi-mystical-childlike religion > where one needs to believe in a kind of Santa Claus God who will do > everything for you regards your salvation (as long as you don't break > his rules etc) but you ultimately take no responsibility for yourself. Your judgment. > >> Oh. Can you illustrate where my language suggests otherwise please, I > >> would be most interested to see how? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Therefore you have proven to me that God does not exist as the > 'discernment' was totally in error. Your judgment. > >> Can you elaborate this difference > >> further? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If this world were destroyed by say a comet or asteroid strike, you > would be destroyed Andrew. Just like the dinasours. In truth, those with Christ will not be. We are not of this world. Our home is with Him. > >> >> >Are you experiencing only peace and happiness these days, Mozz? > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It is a fact my friend. I know how well I am feeling, you do not. :-) And I know what I am sensing. > May you find true wisdom, peace and liberation soon. It remains my choice to walk with Christ who provides all that I may want. I wish the same for you. For this, you remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Hello Andrew, >Did you receive what you wanted? I did, thank you again. >Since you seem eager to answer questions today: > >Do you know why you exist? Karma. >> Yes, the Christian approach has always offered much, but over the >> years has lost the rigourous framework to show practitioner's the >> "how". > >The "rigorous framework" is an illusion created by those who have no >faith. The object of your "faith" is illusory too. >> >If I were of this world, I would be destroyed when the world is inevitably >> >destroyed. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >In truth, those with Christ will not be. We are not of this world. Our >home is with Him. You poor guy. I hope you come to your senses soon and start to see things clearly, you have the potential. Peace be with you. Mozz x > Hello Andrew, > > >Did you receive what you wanted? > > I did, thank you again. You are welcome. Please feel free to come back anytime when you *want* more information. > >Since you seem eager to answer questions today: > > > >Do you know why you exist? > > Karma. Karma is an explanation for events and not existence. It seems that you do not know why you exist. > >> Yes, the Christian approach has always offered much, but over the > >> years has lost the rigourous framework to show practitioner's the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > The object of your "faith" is illusory too. Your judgment. What you write is an unskilled event that does not bode well for your dharma. > >> >If I were of this world, I would be destroyed when the world is inevitably > >> >destroyed. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You poor guy. His kingdom is filled with unimaginable riches. > I hope you come to your senses soon and start to see > things clearly, you have the potential. It remains my choice to refrain from self-worship and choose God-worship. > Peace be with you. Yes, I have His peace. May you accept Christ someday, so that you too will have the incredible peace of His everlasting kingdom. > Mozz x You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 > Yes, the Christian approach has always offered much, but over the > years has lost the rigourous framework to show practitioner's the > "how". Thus it has turned into a quasi-mystical-childlike religion > where one needs to believe in a kind of Santa Claus God who will do > everything for you regards your salvation (as long as you don't break > his rules etc) but you ultimately take no responsibility for yourself. I have no idea what "Christianity" you're alluding to but mine makes it quite clear I am fully responsible for my actions. MOF, being a Christian gives you the tools to make you just that..responsible. Hello MU, >I have no idea what "Christianity" you're alluding to but mine makes it >quite clear I am fully responsible for my actions. MOF, being a Christian >gives you the tools to make you just that..responsible. It is widely accepted among theologians worldwide that Christianity has lost many important early texts teaching the bare bones of the spiritual path. Many Gnostic Christian practitioners (mainly monks) still practice a tradition of meditation very similar to Eastern practices, these include visualisations and healing practices. It is not enough to simply practice moral discipline here on Earth and leave the rest to God in Heaven. You need to take responsibility for inner change and development. Respectfully, Mozz x > Hello MU, Hey, Mozz, >>I have no idea what "Christianity" you're alluding to but mine makes it >>quite clear I am fully responsible for my actions. MOF, being a Christian >>gives you the tools to make you just that..responsible. > It is widely accepted among theologians worldwide that Christianity > has lost many important early texts teaching the bare bones of the > spiritual path. Christianity is not text based, Mozz. It is Christ based. Theologians are text based and, ime, spend way too much time inside of texts instead of out in the real world where Christianity is alive and well in all of its forms. >Many Gnostic Christian practitioners (mainly monks) > still practice a tradition of meditation very similar to Eastern > practices, these include visualisations and healing practices. Yes but older does not equate unilaterally to better. > It is not enough to simply practice moral discipline here on Earth and > leave the rest to God in Heaven. You need to take responsibility for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Mozz x We have no disagreements there. Christianity is a practice not an excuse. > Christianity is not text based, Mozz. LOL. You should tell Andrew that. Maybe he'll put away his bible. > It is Christ based. Theologians are > text based and, ime, spend way too much time inside of texts instead of out > in the real world where Christianity is alive and well in all of its forms. So, by virtue of the fact that Andrew frequently quotes from the bible (which is text based), he is a theologian. You therefore believe that he does not spend enough time in the real world. Make sure you pass this on to him, Mu. I'm sure he'll be quite interested in your views. > So, by virtue of the fact that Andrew frequently quotes from the bible > (which is text based), he is a theologian. You therefore believe that he > does not spend enough time in the real world. My how you jump to the most ridiculous conclusions from an alteres set of facts (in your head). > Make sure you pass this on to him, Mu. I'm sure he'll be quite interested in > your views. I know he is. MOF, enough that we meet in person to discuss them. > > So, by virtue of the fact that Andrew frequently quotes from the bible > > (which is text based), he is a theologian. You therefore believe that he > > does not spend enough time in the real world. > > My how you jump to the most ridiculous conclusions from an alteres set of > facts (in your head). "... an alteres set of facts ..." What the heck are your going on about? In any case, you're the one who stated the "facts." I simply applied them to your "daddy" Chung. > > Make sure you pass this on to him, Mu. I'm sure he'll be quite interested in > > your views. > > I know he is. MOF, enough that we meet in person to discuss them. So, did you tell him you believe he doesn't spend enough time in the real world? What did he say to this? >>> Make sure you pass this on to him, Mu. I'm sure he'll be quite > interested in >>> your views. >> >> I know he is. MOF, enough that we meet in person to discuss them. > So, did you tell him you believe he doesn't spend enough time in the real > world? No. Why would I? >>>> Make sure you pass this on to him, Mu. I'm sure he'll be >>>> quite interested in your views. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > No. Why would I? Oh, I dunno. The truth for a change...? Bob > >>> Make sure you pass this on to him, Mu. I'm sure he'll be quite > >>> interested in your views. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > No. Why would I? Well, after I said that I'm sure he'll be interested in your views, you stated that you know he is ... in fact interested enough that you meet in person. Honestly Mu, are you really that stupid? >>> So, did you tell him you believe he doesn't spend enough time in the > real >>> world? >> No. Why would I? > Well, after I said that I'm sure he'll be interested in your views, you > stated that you know he is ... in fact interested enough that you meet in > person. "he doesn't spend enough time in the real world" was your statement. I reiterate, why would I tell him that especially since both he and I know it is untrue? > Honestly Mu, are you really that stupid? Honestly? I doubt that you are being honest at all with that question. Disingenuous? Absolutely you are. "MU" <munospam@fastmail.fm> wrote in > "he doesn't spend enough time in the real world" was your statement. I > reiterate, why would I tell him that especially since both he and I know it > is untrue? According to you: "Theologians are text based and, ime, spend way too much time inside of texts ..." Andrew quotes from the bible more than anyone I've seen on usenet. His posts and web site are all text based. Surely you can not deny this? Were you lying when you made the statement above? > > Honestly Mu, are you really that stupid? > > Honestly? I doubt that you are being honest at all with that question. Are you suggesting that a question can be dishonest? > Disingenuous? Absolutely you are. Disingenuous? Why, Mu, that's your middle name! Ha, ha, ha! > Hi Andrew, Hi Mozz :-) > Just to let you know that Mark had his tests and the cardiologist gave > him the all clear. I am pleased to read this. > Also, his PVCs have settled since he's started regular meditation > techniques that I taught him, which also seem to have brought his BP > down too - and he's feeling much better. Glad to hear that God has heard my prayers. > Thanks for your opinions and kind thoughts. You are welcome. All praises belong to God whom I love with all my heart, soul, and mind :-) > Mozz x You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >Hi Mozz :-) > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Glad to hear that God has heard my prayers. I'm glad God encouraged Mark to practice meditation so diligently! ;-) >> Thanks for your opinions and kind thoughts. > >You are welcome. > >All praises belong to God whom I love with all my heart, soul, and mind >:-) May all beings reach nirvana through the blessings of the triple gem, buddha, dharma, sangha :-) Thanks Mozz, I have tried all kinds of meditations, but never seem to stick with it. I was doing Bio-feedback for years and for some reason I stopped. I lost my whole family(except for 2 kids) and I know the stress sent the BP up and that caused my Atrial Fibrillation.. I'm going to try and take the time to do the breathing meditation you suggested and really try and stick with it this time....Thanks again and good luck to you and yours..... Nel > >> Just to let you know that Mark had his tests and the cardiologist gave > >> him the all clear. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > May all beings reach nirvana through the blessings of the triple gem, > buddha, dharma, sangha :-) >Thanks Mozz, > > I have tried all kinds of meditations, but never seem to stick with it. I >was doing Bio-feedback for years and for some reason I stopped. I lost my >whole family(except for 2 kids) and I know the stress sent the BP up and >that caused my Atrial Fibrillation.. Hi Nell, I am so sorry to hear about your losses. The stress of such a trauma certainly would explain a rise in your BP and the attendant problems that arose with that. I too lost many close family members in tragic circumstances a few years ago and I too had a significant rise in my BP and other health problems as a consequence. After I attended my first buddhist teaching and started simple breathing meditation (which eventually led to simple visualisation meditation) my BP started to drop back to normal and my palpitations at the time disappeared never to return too. See how you go with the breathing meditation for a while. If you feel it is not working well for you or you just don't feel comfortable, then please don't try to force yourself to do it etc. The first thing you must cultivate is kindness towards yourself. Stay in touch. Mozz x > I'm going to try and take the time to do the breathing meditation you >suggested and really try and stick with it this time....Thanks again and >good luck to you and yours..... >Nel > Thanks Mozz, > > I have tried all kinds of meditations, but never seem to stick with it. I > was doing Bio-feedback for years and for some reason I stopped. I lost my > whole family(except for 2 kids) and I know the stress sent the BP up and > that caused my Atrial Fibrillation. Sorry for your loss. > I'm going to try and take the time to do the breathing meditation you > suggested and really try and stick with it this time....Thanks again and > good luck to you and yours..... > Nel You will be in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 > >Hi Mozz :-) > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I'm glad God encouraged Mark to practice meditation so diligently! ;-) Does Mark believe in God, Mozz? > >> Thanks for your opinions and kind thoughts. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > May all beings reach nirvana through the blessings of the triple gem, > buddha, dharma, sangha :-) May all beings receive eternal life and the unimaginable riches of His everlasting kingdom through Jesus Christ who is "the way, the truth, and the life." :-) For this you will be in my prayers, dear Mozz whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >> >Hi Mozz :-) Hi Andrew, >Does Mark believe in God, Mozz? Mark was brought up a Christian and was confirmed as such, however, as far as I know he lost faith in God and no longer believes. It was this crisis of faith that led him to buddhism and to my meditation class. >May all beings receive eternal life and the unimaginable riches of His >everlasting kingdom through Jesus Christ who is "the way, the truth, and >the life." :-) May all beings have the veil of ignorance removed and reach liberation swiftly :-) >For this you will be in my prayers, dear Mozz whom I love. And you remain in my dedications dear Christian brother. Mozz x > >> >Hi Mozz :-) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Mark was brought up a Christian and was confirmed as such, however, as > far as I know he lost faith in God and no longer believes. Did Mark ever accept Christ as his Lord and Savior? > It was this > crisis of faith that led him to buddhism and to my meditation class. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > May all beings have the veil of ignorance removed and reach liberation > swiftly :-) That will happen with the death of the world. > >For this you will be in my prayers, dear Mozz whom I love. > > And you remain in my dedications dear Christian brother. Thanks, although it is not clear to me what you mean by "dedications." > Mozz x You remain in my prayers, dear Mozz whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >Did Mark ever accept Christ as his Lord and Savior? Yes, he once - like you do now - accepted Christ as his Lord and Saviour. >> May all beings have the veil of ignorance removed and reach liberation >> swiftly :-) > >That will happen with the death of the world. Yes, the 'death' of the samsaric world, the world of illusion once you attain liberation and reach nirvana. >> >For this you will be in my prayers, dear Mozz whom I love. >> >> And you remain in my dedications dear Christian brother. > >Thanks, although it is not clear to me what you mean by "dedications." I dedicate my prayers, thoughts and good wishes to you and your family. Mozz x > >Did Mark ever accept Christ as his Lord and Savior? > > Yes, he once - like you do now - accepted Christ as his Lord and > Saviour. Then Mark remains with Christ and it is the prayers that are helping him rather than the meditation. > >> May all beings have the veil of ignorance removed and reach liberation > >> swiftly :-) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Yes, the 'death' of the samsaric world, the world of illusion once you > attain liberation and reach nirvana. I was not referring to the world of illusion but the world of reality created by God. > >> >For this you will be in my prayers, dear Mozz whom I love. > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I dedicate my prayers, thoughts and good wishes to you and your > family. Appreciate that :-) You remain in my prayers to God, in Christ's name, dear Mozz whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Hello Andrew, >> >Did Mark ever accept Christ as his Lord and Savior? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Then Mark remains with Christ and it is the prayers that are helping him >rather than the meditation. No, respectfully - it is the meditation that is helping him as there is a direct correlation bourne out by many such similar experiences. Mark used to believe and accept Jesus as his Christ, many used to pray for him and yet there was no change to his health or feelings. He no longer accepts or believes in him and since he has taken responsibility for his own well being through meditation and dharma practice he has improved ten-fold. These are facts I have witnessed many times dear neighbour. >> >> May all beings have the veil of ignorance removed and reach liberation >> >> swiftly :-) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I was not referring to the world of illusion but the world of reality created >by God. Your 'world or reality created by a god' is precisely the world of illusion buddha spoke of dear neighbour :-) May you reach enlightenment swiftly and be truly beneficial to the World Andrew! Mozz x > Hello Andrew, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > practice he has improved ten-fold. These are facts I have witnessed > many times dear neighbour. Christ teaches from John 11:25-26 "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die." > >> >> May all beings have the veil of ignorance removed and reach liberation > >> >> swiftly :-) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Your 'world or reality created by a god' is precisely the world of > illusion buddha spoke of dear neighbour :-) God created buddha and not the other way around. > May you reach enlightenment swiftly and be truly beneficial to the > World Andrew! Christ teaches about buddha (and others like buddha) through John 10: 7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. 11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." May God add His blessings to the writing of His Word here in SMC, in Christ's Holy Name. Amen. > Mozz x You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 > Hello Andrew, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > practice he has improved ten-fold. These are facts I have witnessed > many times dear neighbour. Christ teaches from John 11:25-26 "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die." > >> >> May all beings have the veil of ignorance removed and reach liberation > >> >> swiftly :-) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Your 'world or reality created by a god' is precisely the world of > illusion buddha spoke of dear neighbour :-) God created buddha and not the other way around. > May you reach enlightenment swiftly and be truly beneficial to the > World Andrew! Christ teaches about buddha (and others like buddha) through John 10: 7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. 11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." May God add His blessings to the writing of His Word here in SMC, in Christ's Holy Name. Amen. > Mozz x You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >Christ teaches from John 11:25-26 > >"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, >even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never >die." Of course, the religious text quoted above - like nearly all such texts - is speaking symbolically and not literally. That is where your interpretation is in error. >God created buddha and not the other way around. That is your erroneous judgement. >Christ teaches about buddha (and others like buddha) through John 10: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it >up again. This command I received from my Father." Again, the symbolic language of poetry. The much older Hindu Vedas and Buddhist Pali Canon, Jewish Kabbalah and Egyptian/Babylonian epics all speak in the very same language and make the very same dramatic points at various junctures. You are merely projecting your own beliefs onto open template. Have you ever tried to learn any theological comparative study Andrew? You might find it helps to pull you out of your cul-de-sac blind spot you seem to be stuck in. May the buddha dharma bless you and all sentient beings. Mozz x > >Christ teaches from John 11:25-26 > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > texts - is speaking symbolically and not literally. That is where > your interpretation is in error. Sorry you disagree with Him (shrug). > >God created buddha and not the other way around. > > That is your erroneous judgement. It is what I and everyone (including buddha) knows. > >Christ teaches about buddha (and others like buddha) through John 10: > > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > speak in the very same language and make the very same dramatic points > at various junctures. Did any of your idols lay down their lives for us and then pick it back up again? > You are merely projecting your own beliefs onto open template. It seems you are unable to distinguish me (a mere servant) from my Master. This does not bode well for either your dharma or your kharma. > Have you ever tried to learn any theological comparative study Andrew? I have learned what He has taught me during my continuing walk with Him. > You might find it helps to pull you out of your cul-de-sac blind spot > you seem to be stuck in. God's gift of truth discernment did not come from a comparative study of various world religions. > May the buddha dharma bless you and all sentient beings. May God touch you in a very special way so that you will know Him, in Christ's Holy name. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Good morning Andrew, >> >God created buddha and not the other way around. >> >> That is your erroneous judgement. > >It is what I and everyone (including buddha) knows. I asked my teacher today 'did God create buddha?' and he said 'no, there is no such thing as a creator deity' - therefore, you are wrong again. It seems not everyone 'knows' God created buddha. Also, why would an atheist say 'God created buddha'? They do not believe in a God at all. >> Again, the symbolic language of poetry. The much older Hindu Vedas and >> Buddhist Pali Canon, Jewish Kabbalah and Egyptian/Babylonian epics all [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Did any of your idols lay down their lives for us and then pick it back >up again? Sure, the resurrection myths go way back before the Christian era Andrew. Check out the Epic Of Gilgamesh from Babylonia, and surely even you have heard of the famous Greek myth of Orpheus and the Underworld? The Christians were very much aware of these resurrection stories and worked them into their own myth. >> You are merely projecting your own beliefs onto open template. > >It seems you are unable to distinguish me (a mere servant) from my >Master. This does not bode well for either your dharma or your kharma. You clearly demonstrate that you have no understanding of either dharma or my views. >> Have you ever tried to learn any theological comparative study Andrew? > >I have learned what He has taught me during my continuing walk with Him. So the answer is no. >> You might find it helps to pull you out of your cul-de-sac blind spot >> you seem to be stuck in. > >God's gift of truth discernment did not come from a comparative study of >various world religions. That is certainly demonstrated from your posts on the subject. Although your fantasy of having the gift of truth discernment is rather sad. Peace be with you my friend. Mozz x > Good morning Andrew, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > there is no such thing as a creator deity' - therefore, you are wrong > again. It is your choice to believe that your teacher speaks the truth. > It seems not everyone 'knows' God created buddha. Everyone knows it though some may deny it. > Also, why would an atheist say 'God created buddha'? Why would someone not saying something mean that s/he does not know that something? > They do not > believe in a God at all. The observation that that have made that choice affirms that they know there is a God (to reject). Truth is simple. > >> Again, the symbolic language of poetry. The much older Hindu Vedas and > >> Buddhist Pali Canon, Jewish Kabbalah and Egyptian/Babylonian epics all [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Underworld? The Christians were very much aware of these resurrection > stories and worked them into their own myth. Would suggest you reread my question in order to answer it. Would suggest you focus on the concept of "*your* idols." > >> You are merely projecting your own beliefs onto open template. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You clearly demonstrate that you have no understanding of either > dharma or my views. Sorry my views bother you. > >> Have you ever tried to learn any theological comparative study Andrew? > > > >I have learned what He has taught me during my continuing walk with Him. > > So the answer is no. The answer is "I have learned" and not "I have tried (implying no success)." > >> You might find it helps to pull you out of your cul-de-sac blind spot > >> you seem to be stuck in. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That is certainly demonstrated from your posts on the subject. I have not been posting on the subject of comparative studies of various world religions. > Although your fantasy of having the gift of truth discernment is > rather sad. Sorry you covet the gifts God has given me. > Peace be with you my friend. Christ has given me that peace already but thanks anyway. > Mozz x You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. May you look for support from Christ, someday, rather than from those who lurk in the dark corners of Usenet. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Hello Andrew, >It is your choice to believe that your teacher speaks the truth. Correct. >> It seems not everyone 'knows' God created buddha. > >Everyone knows it though some may deny it. Everyone knows there is no God other than that which their imaginations may conjure. >> Also, why would an atheist say 'God created buddha'? > >Why would someone not saying something mean that s/he does not know that >something? I am an athiest. I know that God does not exist. >> They do not >> believe in a God at all. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Truth is simple. I do not believe in Santa Claus. By making that observation I have affirmed the existence of Santa Claus according to you? I do not believe in pink dragons. By making that observation I have affirmed the existence of pink dragons have I? See how idiotic your tortured logic starts to look? Truth is simple Andrew! And I never even needed to usemy buddhist gift of truth discernment! ;-) >> >Did any of your idols lay down their lives for us and then pick it back >> >up again? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Would suggest you reread my question in order to answer it. Would >suggest you focus on the concept of "*your* idols." I wasn't aware of having any 'idols'. >> You clearly demonstrate that you have no understanding of either >> dharma or my views. > >Sorry my views bother you. Sorry you think that I think your views bother me. >> >God's gift of truth discernment did not come from a comparative study of >> >various world religions. There is no such gift and you know it - I think you need to be very careful about lying or deceiving as a christian. >> Although your fantasy of having the gift of truth discernment is >> rather sad. > >Sorry you covet the gifts God has given me. You must try to overcome this persecution complex Andrew. How can anyone covet that which is pure delusion? >> Peace be with you my friend. > >Christ has given me that peace already but thanks anyway. I sense otherwise ;-) Love Mozz x >May you look for support from Christ, someday, rather than from those >who lurk in the dark corners of Usenet. I once looked to the christian myth but found better paths elsewhere. What do you mean by 'look for support from those who lurk in the dark corners of Usenet'? May you swiftly find true peace and enlightenment to help all sentient beings. Mozz, I've been following your diatribe with Andrew with considerable interest. Man, I like your style. It's nice to see someone both intellegent and patient counter his sad theological thrusts. Keep up the good work! Can you recommend a good web site that provides some good background on the Buddha? Hi, >Mozz, I've been following your diatribe with Andrew with considerable >interest. Man, I like your style. It's nice to see someone both intellegent >and patient counter his sad theological thrusts. Keep up the good work! Thank you for your kind words. My intention is born from compassion. >Can you recommend a good web site that provides some good background on the >Buddha? There are many many websites. If you go here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/buddhism/beliefs/fournobletruths.shtml this BBC site is great for a beginner's overview. I suggest you listen to the Four Noble Truths broadcasts they stream online. They are great to get a real feel for the general fundamentals. Let me know how you get on. Mozz x > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thank you for your kind words. My intention is born from compassion. Your need for reaffirming support (from any source) seems to be desperate. This speaks to your wanting. There is no despair when you are with Christ. With Christ, we do not want. You remain in my prayers, dear Mozz whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Hi Andrew, >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Your need for reaffirming support (from any source) seems to be >desperate. This speaks to your wanting. Is it not good manners and polite to acknowledge others posts? Where is this 'reaffirming support' you seem so concerned about? Love Mozz x > Hi Andrew, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Is it not good manners and polite to acknowledge others posts? Depends on how you "acknowledge" these posts. > Where is this 'reaffirming support' you seem so concerned about? See above. You remain in my prayers, dear Mozz whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Hello Andrew, >> >Your need for reaffirming support (from any source) seems to be >> >desperate. This speaks to your wanting. >> >> Is it not good manners and polite to acknowledge others posts? > >Depends on how you "acknowledge" these posts. And what do you think was wrong with how I have acknowledged these posts? >> Where is this 'reaffirming support' you seem so concerned about? > >See above. I see nothing to indicate any 'reaffirming support' - merely a polite solicited acknowledgement. May the buddha, dharma and sangha bless you and your family. Mozz x > Hello Andrew, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > And what do you think was wrong with how I have acknowledged these > posts? I found nothing wrong with your acknowledging your heartfelt appreciation for the reaffirming support from others. It seems my pointing out your want bothers you. > >> Where is this 'reaffirming support' you seem so concerned about? > > > >See above. > > I see nothing Yes, I know dear soul of Mozz. Your dharma is blinding you. > May the buddha, dharma and sangha bless you and your family. Thanks for the well wishes. > Mozz x You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >I found nothing wrong with your acknowledging your heartfelt >appreciation for the reaffirming support from others. So you found nothing wrong with my polite conduct in thanking others for their kind words. Excellent. >It seems my pointing out your want bothers you. I'm sorry you are so clearly troubled by your desire to believe these fantasies. Perhaps you 'need' to think of me as 'hurt' or 'weak' in order to make yourself feel better? Can I help you in any way? >> >> Where is this 'reaffirming support' you seem so concerned about? >> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Yes, I know dear soul of Mozz. Your dharma is blinding you. Dharma is a set of teachings. My sight is perfect. You remain in my dedications dear Andrew. Mozz x > >I found nothing wrong with your acknowledging your heartfelt > >appreciation for the reaffirming support from others. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > fantasies. Perhaps you 'need' to think of me as 'hurt' or 'weak' in > order to make yourself feel better? Observations are not needs. > Can I help you in any way? For my wants, I look to Christ. Thanks for the offer, however. > >> >> Where is this 'reaffirming support' you seem so concerned about? > >> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Dharma is a set of teachings. ..that is blinding you. > My sight is perfect. And yet you see nothing. > You remain in my dedications dear Andrew. Thanks. > Mozz x You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >> I'm sorry you are so clearly troubled by your desire to believe these >> fantasies. Perhaps you 'need' to think of me as 'hurt' or 'weak' in >> order to make yourself feel better? > >Observations are not needs. They seem to have a 'needy' component when the so-called observations are wide of the mark. >> Can I help you in any way? > >For my wants, I look to Christ. Thanks for the offer, however. Well, perhaps I can offer you something more useful. Think it over. >> Dharma is a set of teachings. > >..that is blinding you. Perhaps I need to spit in some mud and rub it on my eyes? ;-) >> My sight is perfect. > >And yet you see nothing. I see your growing desperation and doubt. May you find the teachings of the holy buddha soon.... Mozz x > >> I'm sorry you are so clearly troubled by your desire to believe these > >> fantasies. Perhaps you 'need' to think of me as 'hurt' or 'weak' in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > They seem to have a 'needy' component when the so-called observations > are wide of the mark. Sorry my observations bother you. This does not bode well for your dharma. > >> Can I help you in any way? > > > >For my wants, I look to Christ. Thanks for the offer, however. > > Well, perhaps I can offer you something more useful. Think it over. By your own words, you offer nothing. > >> Dharma is a set of teachings. > > > >..that is blinding you. > > Perhaps I need to spit in some mud and rub it on my eyes? ;-) You need Christ to heal you. > >> My sight is perfect. > > > >And yet you see nothing. > > I see your growing desperation and doubt. You seem to be projecting again. > May you find the teachings of the holy buddha soon.... It remains my choice to walk with Christ and receive His teachings. Sorry reading will fuel your growing desperation and doubt. > Mozz x You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Dear Andrew, >Sorry my observations bother you. > >This does not bode well for your dharma. Your 'observations' (which actually are judgements masquerading as 'sense') are in error. You singularly demonstrate your lack of understanding regards what would and would not constitute dharma. >> >For my wants, I look to Christ. Thanks for the offer, however. >> >> Well, perhaps I can offer you something more useful. Think it over. > >By your own words, you offer nothing. All things change - perhaps your attitude towards dharma will change in time. >> Perhaps I need to spit in some mud and rub it on my eyes? ;-) > >You need Christ to heal you. I am not sick or wounded. >Sorry reading will fuel your growing desperation and doubt. In that case I am pleased that my reading is far from sorry. You remain in my heartfelt dedications dear friend. Mozz x >>Sorry reading will fuel your growing desperation and doubt. Um... er... Sure. Clear. As always. Bob > Dear Andrew, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Your 'observations' (which actually are judgements masquerading as > 'sense') are in error. Sorry what I sense is making you feel defensive. > You singularly demonstrate your lack of understanding regards what > would and would not constitute dharma. It remains your choice to cling to it. > >> >For my wants, I look to Christ. Thanks for the offer, however. > >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > All things change - Not the truth. > perhaps your attitude towards dharma will change > in time. It will remain my choice to stay with the truth. > >> Perhaps I need to spit in some mud and rub it on my eyes? ;-) > > > >You need Christ to heal you. > > I am not sick or wounded. Then why do you feel the need to rub mud and spit in your eyes? > >Sorry reading will fuel your growing desperation and doubt. > > In that case I am pleased that my reading is far from sorry. Sorry reading *this* will fuel your growing desperation and doubt. > You remain in my heartfelt dedications dear friend. Thanks. You remain in my prayers to God, in Christ's name, dear neighbor whom I love. > Mozz x May you find the way soon. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >Sorry what I sense is making you feel defensive. Sorry your senses are so much in error. >> You singularly demonstrate your lack of understanding regards what >> would and would not constitute dharma. > >It remains your choice to cling to it. As a buddhist I am taught to let go of all things...therefore I do not cling. >> All things change - > >Not the truth. Understanding of what is or is not truth changes. >> perhaps your attitude towards dharma will change >> in time. > >It will remain my choice to stay with the truth. Whatever form your truth takes. >> >> Perhaps I need to spit in some mud and rub it on my eyes? ;-) >> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Then why do you feel the need to rub mud and spit in your eyes? I was making a humorous comment. I thought it might make you laugh. >Sorry reading *this* will fuel your growing desperation and doubt. Reading your views on dharma and life in general does not fill me with desperation or doubt - you are not 'that' bad Andrew :-) Love Mozz x > >Sorry what I sense is making you feel defensive. > > Sorry your senses are so much in error. A blind man is in no position to evaluate what a seeing man sees. > >> You singularly demonstrate your lack of understanding regards what > >> would and would not constitute dharma. > > > >It remains your choice to cling to it. > > As a buddhist I am taught to let go of all things... It seems you have not learned what you have been taught. > therefore I do not > cling. That is not what I see. > >> All things change - > > > >Not the truth. > > Understanding of what is or is not truth changes. Not for those with God's gift of truth discernment. > >> perhaps your attitude towards dharma will change > >> in time. > > > >It will remain my choice to stay with the truth. > > Whatever form your truth takes. Truth is invariant. > >> >> Perhaps I need to spit in some mud and rub it on my eyes? ;-) > >> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I was making a humorous comment. > I thought it might make you laugh. Sorry this discourse has been depressing you. > >Sorry reading *this* will fuel your growing desperation and doubt. > > Reading your views on dharma and life in general does not fill me with > desperation or doubt - you are not 'that' bad Andrew :-) All praises belong to God whom I love with all my heart, soul and mind :-) You remain in my prayers to God, in Christ's name, dear Mozz whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Dear Andrew, >A blind man is in no position to evaluate what a seeing man sees. You are the blind man in the grip of delusion my friend, not I. Dharma practice teaches one to see things 'as they truly are' through meditative practice and rigorous debate. >> As a buddhist I am taught to let go of all things... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >That is not what I see. More evidence of your blindness my poor deluded friend. >> Understanding of what is or is not truth changes. >Not for those with God's gift of truth discernment. Pure fantasy and self delusion. >> >> perhaps your attitude towards dharma will change >> >> in time. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Truth is invariant. Here is an example of what I mean - Old Testament, God's very word suggests 'an eye for an eye is the way we do things here' - the New Testament - 'I say scrap that old Truth....the way forward is to turn the other cheek now!' Example of Truth's variant quality. >Sorry this discourse has been depressing you. Are you invited to many parties Andrew? ;-) Anyone makes light of anything and according to Andrew you are depressed...bizarre..... May the truth of the buddha/dharma/sangha be revealed to you swiftly so you benefit all sentient beings as soon as possible. Mozz x > Dear Andrew, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Dharma practice teaches one to see things 'as they truly are' through > meditative practice and rigorous debate. Without God, this will always be difficult for you. > >> As a buddhist I am taught to let go of all things... > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > More evidence of your blindness my poor deluded friend. It seems all this discussion about blindness has struck a raw nerve in you. Why is that? Perhaps you need to meditate more so that you might regain your composure. > >> Understanding of what is or is not truth changes. > > >Not for those with God's gift of truth discernment. > > Pure fantasy and self delusion. That is what I see in you. > >> >> perhaps your attitude towards dharma will change > >> >> in time. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Here is an example of what I mean - Old Testament, God's very word > suggests 'an eye for an eye is the way we do things here' That is not one of the 10 commandments. > - the New > Testament - 'I say scrap that old Truth....the way forward is to turn > the other cheek now!' Christ teaches from Matthew 5:17-18: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law of the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." > Example of Truth's variant quality. See above. > >Sorry this discourse has been depressing you. > > Are you invited to many parties Andrew? ;-) To more than God gives me time to attend. > Anyone makes light of anything and according to Andrew you are > depressed...bizarre..... I often sense sadness behind laughing facades. > May the truth of the buddha/dharma/sangha be revealed to you swiftly > so you benefit all sentient beings as soon as possible. May all sentient beings accept that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life so that they will be blessed by God. You remain in my prayers, dear Mozz whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in article <9fcab6f7.0408231114.7b871899@posting.google.com>: >> Dear Andrew, [...] >> Here is an example of what I mean - Old Testament, God's very word >> suggests 'an eye for an eye is the way we do things here' >That is not one of the 10 commandments. >> - the New >> Testament - 'I say scrap that old Truth....the way forward is to turn >> the other cheek now!' >Christ teaches from Matthew 5:17-18: >"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law of the Prophets; I >have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the >truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not >the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law >until everything is accomplished." And yet later we read about Paul arguing with Peter and other disciples that the Jewish Christians no longer had to obey the letter of the law but were freed from such restrictions by their faith--and Paul's view became that of the ongoing church. Peter finally agreed that non-Jews becoming Christian did not have to accept Jewish circumcision and follow the dietary laws before joining the church. [Some] truth is simple; so is much error. The criterion is not simplicity vs. complexity, but congruence with reality.  SignatureDon donkirk@covad.net > It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote > in article <9fcab6f7.0408231114.7b871899@posting.google.com>: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > And yet later we read about Paul arguing with Peter and other disciples > that the Jewish Christians no longer had to obey the letter of the law > but were freed from such restrictions by their faith--and Paul's view > became that of the ongoing church. Peter finally agreed that non-Jews > becoming Christian did not have to accept Jewish circumcision and follow > the dietary laws before joining the church. Cultural/ethnic customs are not the Law of the Prophets. > [Some] truth is simple; so is much error. The criterion is not > simplicity vs. complexity, but congruence with reality. Truth is its own criterion. Those with God's gift of truth discernment, "see" this. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in article <412BB9EB.158644E1@heartmdphd.com>: >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote >> in article <9fcab6f7.0408231114.7b871899@posting.google.com>: >> >> Dear Andrew, >> [...] >> >> Here is an example of what I mean - Old Testament, God's very word >> >> suggests 'an eye for an eye is the way we do things here' >> >That is not one of the 10 commandments. >> >> - the New >> >> Testament - 'I say scrap that old Truth....the way forward is to turn >> >> the other cheek now!' >> >Christ teaches from Matthew 5:17-18: >> >"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law of the Prophets; I >> >have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the >> >truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not >> >the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law >> >until everything is accomplished." >> And yet later we read about Paul arguing with Peter and other disciples >> that the Jewish Christians no longer had to obey the letter of the law >> but were freed from such restrictions by their faith--and Paul's view >> became that of the ongoing church. Peter finally agreed that non-Jews >> becoming Christian did not have to accept Jewish circumcision and follow >> the dietary laws before joining the church. >Cultural/ethnic customs are not the Law of the Prophets. But the passage you misquoted says "the Law *and* the Prophets" - two separate categories, essentially the entire source of Jewish teaching. The dietary laws most certainly are part of the Jewish Law, and so is circumcision, beginning from Genesis. >> [Some] truth is simple; so is much error. The criterion is not >> simplicity vs. complexity, but congruence with reality. >Truth is its own criterion. That's tautological nonsense. Truth is evident by observable or theoretically observable conformity to facts and reality, not to unprovable ideas and sensations. >Those with God's gift of truth discernment, "see" this. It's hard to have a gift that doesn't exist, and most people see this. I don't think you've ever identified the Biblical or doctrinal basis for the gift you claim so regularly. >Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Apparently the *proudest* servant to the humblest person . . . . Conundrum: if God created the universe (presumably you mean the physical universe) is he really in it, or does he transcend it? SignatureDon donkirk@covad.net > It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote > in article <412BB9EB.158644E1@heartmdphd.com>: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > But the passage you misquoted says "the Law *and* the Prophets" - two > separate categories, essentially the entire source of Jewish teaching. Oops. Yes, I misquoted. However, it is clear that by the "Law", Christ is describing the God's 10 commandments and not Jewish teachings. For Christ further teaches from Matthew 5: 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. > The dietary laws most certainly are part of the Jewish Law, and so is > circumcision, beginning from Genesis. They are Jewish customs but they are not God's "commandments." Moreover, Christ simplifies the 10 commandments to just 2: (1) Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. (2) Love *all* others as your would love yourself. And following these 2 does mean you are automatically following the 10 original commandments (but not necessarily Jewish ethnic teachings). > >> [Some] truth is simple; so is much error. The criterion is not > >> simplicity vs. complexity, but congruence with reality. > > >Truth is its own criterion. > > That's tautological nonsense. Your judgment. > Truth is evident by observable or > theoretically observable conformity to facts and reality, not to > unprovable ideas and sensations. Truth is evident to those who are able to discern it. Others grope around and get a "feel" for it in the manner you describe. > >Those with God's gift of truth discernment, "see" this. > > It's hard to have a gift that doesn't exist, In truth, a "gift that does not exist" is by definition impossible to have. > and most people see this. Yes, most people will understand what I have just written. > I don't think you've ever identified the Biblical or doctrinal basis for > the gift you claim so regularly. I have not, but others have provided links to sources that describe the gift of truth discernment that God has given me. I am not the only recipient of this gift from God. > >Servant to the humblest person in the universe, > > Apparently the *proudest* servant to the humblest person . . . . All praises belong to my heavenly Father, whom I love with all my heart, soul, and mind. The choice to not receive praises has killed all pride. > Conundrum: if God created the universe (presumably you mean the > physical universe) is he really in it, or does he transcend it? The same answer as to the following question: If you build a house, are you really in it, above it, beside it, or altogether somewhere else? The answer: Just as you have free will to move about as you choose so does God. Truth is simple. (God's gift of truth discernment in action :-) You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >> Chung, MD/PhD wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> >>> Cultural/ethnic customs are not the Law of the Prophets. Right. True. But irrelevant and evasive. >> But the passage you misquoted says "the Law *and* the Prophets" - >> two separate categories, essentially the entire source of Jewish [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Christ is describing the God's 10 commandments and not Jewish > teachings. Your flawed judgement. > For Christ further teaches from Matthew 5: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > They are Jewish customs but they are not God's "commandments." > Moreover, Christ simplifies the 10 commandments to just 2: As if. Chung's "Church of the Least Inconvenience and Smallest Complexity"... Then why did he bother to give the sermon on the mount? Why the parables? > (1) Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 10 original commandments (but not necessarily Jewish ethnic > teachings). What silly, convoluted reasoning to evade the whole litany of "laws" posited in both the old and new testaments. The dietary laws aren't casual suggestions between buddies. They're specific directions from God. Ignore them as you will, they're still very specific. As for the two injunctions about automatically including the 10 commandments, that's just as silly. How is keeping holy the sabbath or avoiding covetousness fitted in there. Keeping the sabbath is a series of actions, not an attitude as the two précis above are. Beyond which, the commandment about not coveting is about property, "...thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his a.s, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." That condition of property certainly pushes away the idea of loving that person or those people. That commandment has nothing to do with love and everything to do with commercial value. >>>> [Some] truth is simple; so is much error. The criterion is >>>> not simplicity vs. complexity, but congruence with reality. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Your judgment. By definition. More of Chung's "Humpty-Dumpty" defining things. There's a sadly poignant enactment of CHung's way with language in Lewis Carroll's "Through the Looking Glass": "There's glory for you!" "I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said. Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' " "But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument,' " Alice objected. "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is, " said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty. "which is to be master—that's all." So CHung has decided "to be master" no matter what dictionaries say; no matter what the common understandings are; no matter anything but his prideful "winning" that's so important to him. >> Truth is evident by observable or theoretically observable >> conformity to facts and reality, not to unprovable ideas and >> sensations. > > Truth is evident to those who are able to discern it. Others grope > around and get a "feel" for it in the manner you describe. There's no condition of feeling in observable conformity - or non-conformity - with unarguable fact. It's an exercise in pure, objective comparison and evaluation. But "truth discernment" is a "feel" by Chung's description, made still more bizarre by its rather demonstrated nonexistence. >>> Those with God's gift of truth discernment, "see" this. Those quotes around "see" certainly does make very solid the idea that this farcical "gift" of Chung's is feeling. Like *all* actual senses, it's a matter of being received by some sensor. I've asked Chung where those sensors are located and what, exactly, it is they're sensing. As you would expect, he declines to answer a very straightforward, question. It's like perpetual motion - a lovely idea, physically impossible. I can even accept the idea of ESP that picks up "something" from a broadcaster. But the idea of a sensor(?) picking up something and making the judgement that it's truth is too silly to even consider. What, the "sensor" picks up *everything* and evaluates each fragment for its truth quotient? Oh, wait. According to Chung, truth is absolute, invariant, never mind quantum thinking. It's bad being uneducated. Chung hasn't that excuse. The untruthful have a hard time answering simple questions. >> It's hard to have a gift that doesn't exist, > > In truth, a "gift that does not exist" is by definition impossible > to have. Of course, in truth, this is nonsense and Chung is the last guy on earth to even try ot include definitions in his arguments given his Hunpty-Dumpty ways. The assertion is that there is no such thing as the gift of discernment. That it is a null concept. That it is fictive. You claim it and show absolutely no indication of it - so much of your "truth" is clearly spurious. You claim to "sense" truth with no information. The clear absence of evidence for this "gift" you claim to have points to its nonexistence. You claim a "gift" that has no basis in fact or testimony beyond those who claim to have it. Ergo, there is no such "gift." It is a gift that doesn't exist. >> and most people see this. > > Yes, most people will understand what I have just written. Most people will understand the symptoms of the tortured workings of a disturbed mind. >> I don't think you've ever identified the Biblical or doctrinal >> basis for the gift you claim so regularly. > > I have not, but others have provided links to sources that describe > the gift of truth discernment that God has given me. I am not the > only recipient of this gift from God. <LOL> It's funny how you point out that some others have it, but only when they agree with your excretory scrawlings. Another funny thing. I just did a few pages of a Google search and didn't find anyone else offering links or support for "truth discernment." I did find this, though, that pretty thoroughly demolishes your "truth discernment." <http://tinyurl.com/5xgzh> >>> Servant to the humblest person in the universe, >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > heart, soul, and mind. The choice to not receive praises has > killed all pride. <LOL> Hilarious hypocrite. So Chung writes a FAQ about himself which is stored on an anonymous web site. The writing is exactly in Chung's style and "voice" (Look it up, Chung, before you humiliate yourself like you did when you tried to dispute "tone."), complete with his rhythms and vocabulary conventions. "The choice to not receive praise" is probably what prompts him to reply to his own posting so it appears more than once each time. For Chung to talk about not having pride is like saying water doesn't have oxygen. >> Conundrum: if God created the universe (presumably you mean the >> physical universe) is he really in it, or does he transcend it? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The answer: Just as you have free will to move about as you choose > so does God. The universe is *the* absolute but finite event that didn't exist before God created it. It is everything except God. Everything. A house is a mere construct of the materials in that universe and is irrelevant to the example. You may leave the house, but you may not leave the universe. God obviously can because he had to stand outside it in its creation. How shallow an understanding of theology and how shallow an understanding of physics. > Truth is simple. > > (God's gift of truth discernment in action :-) Um, sure. A lengthy string of erroneous conclusions, many debunked by objective data, and Chung the prideful thinks he has seen "truth." Perhaps he has, but only for a necessarily very high value of wishful thinking, self-deception and a soupçon of actual lying. Poor defeated Chung. Bob It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in article <412D74CE.4EAE@heartmdphd.com>: >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote >> in article <412BB9EB.158644E1@heartmdphd.com>: >> >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote >> >> in article <9fcab6f7.0408231114.7b871899@posting.google.com>: >> >> >> Dear Andrew, >> >> [...] >> >> >> Here is an example of what I mean - Old Testament, God's very word >> >> >> suggests 'an eye for an eye is the way we do things here' >> >> >That is not one of the 10 commandments. >> >> >> - the New >> >> >> Testament - 'I say scrap that old Truth....the way forward is to turn >> >> >> the other cheek now!' >> >> >Christ teaches from Matthew 5:17-18: [...] >> >Cultural/ethnic customs are not the Law of the Prophets. >> But the passage you misquoted says "the Law *and* the Prophets" - two >> separate categories, essentially the entire source of Jewish teaching. >Oops. Yes, I misquoted. However, it is clear that by the "Law", Christ >is describing the God's 10 commandments and not Jewish teachings. An attempted distinction without a difference. According to Genesis they were given to the people then known as Hebrews or Israelites, who were later known as Jews. The laws and commandments themselves did not change. "The Law" does not refer only to the ten commandments (for which there are slightly different versions in Jewish, Catholic, and Protestant usage) but to Torah, *The* Law, particularly the first five books of the Old Testament. >For Christ further teaches from Matthew 5: >19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches >others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but >whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the >kingdom of heaven. >> The dietary laws most certainly are part of the Jewish Law, and so is >> circumcision, beginning from Genesis. >They are Jewish customs but they are not God's "commandments." >Moreover, Christ simplifies the 10 commandments to just 2: >(1) Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Following Deuteronomy 11:13, "And if you will obey my commandments which I command you this day, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, . . ." and Deut. 30:6, "And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." >(2) Love *all* others as your would love yourself. Echoing Zechariah 8:16,17: "These are the things you shall do: Speak the truth to one another, render in your gates judgments that are true and make for peace, do not devise evil in your hearts against one another, and love no false oath, for all these things I hate, says the Lord." >And following these 2 does mean you are automatically following the 10 >original commandments (but not necessarily Jewish ethnic teachings). Jesus knew the writing of Micah: "What does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God." >> >> [Some] truth is simple; so is much error. The criterion is not >> >> simplicity vs. complexity, but congruence with reality. >> >Truth is its own criterion. >> That's tautological nonsense. >Your judgment. I sense that it is correct. >> Truth is evident by observable or >> theoretically observable conformity to facts and reality, not to >> unprovable ideas and sensations. >Truth is evident to those who are able to discern it. Others grope >around and get a "feel" for it in the manner you describe. That brings to mind an interesting speculation. Suppose a young student were to be meeting with his dissertation committee to defend his research and conclusions. I can imagine his defense along the lines of "I can assure you my conclusions are valid, because I have the gift of truth discernment. There is no need to summarize my evidence and demonstrate how it follows from my research data because, you see, truth is its own criterion. Please do not trouble yourselves further. I will see myself out, and will expect to receive notice of your acceptance of my work forthwith." >> >Those with God's gift of truth discernment, "see" this. >> It's hard to have a gift that doesn't exist, >In truth, a "gift that does not exist" is by definition impossible to >have. Whoosh! >> and most people see this. >Yes, most people will understand what I have just written. >> I don't think you've ever identified the Biblical or doctrinal basis for >> the gift you claim so regularly. >I have not, but others have provided links to sources that describe the >gift of truth discernment that God has given me. I am not the only >recipient of this gift from God. Since I, and probably many others, have never seen those links to sources describing this wondrous gift please direct me to posts containing them, or provide the names of some of those others so we may Google their posts. SignatureDon donkirk@covad.net Don, it's nice to see someone challenge Andrew's so effectively using the bible. I've enjoyed reading your dialog with him. Keep up the good work. >>>>>>> It's hard to have a gift that doesn't exist, and most people see this. > I don't think you've ever identified the Biblical or doctrinal basis for > the gift you claim so regularly.<<<<<<<<<< Andrew has the gift to awaken the sinner to Christ's light. As anyone who is awoken from a slumber, some get a might bit irritated. I'll take the gift of song if music arouses the spirit, of healing if someone is sick and need, of prophecy if it is God's will, of discernment if insight is needed, of tongues if to be interpreted, of wisdom if it is to make judgement or offer advice, of prayer if it is bring comfort. In fact I'll take the gift of just about all things through God's grace if it is for God's work and to lead people to Christ's light. If people have told Andrew he has a gift of discernment which has helped in their journey with Christ, then for that work amongst them at that particular moment in time he has, because they have experienced it. It's a strange and wonderful thing receiving a spiritual gift from God. Like a singer who deafens all but those who hear the beautiful music of God, the mystery and purpose of this lies with The Holy Spirit. We can simply offer ourselves up to become vessles for The Holy Spirit to use so that His gifts can be divided amongst us for the benefit of all of us. Carol T >> It's hard to have a gift that doesn't exist, and most people see >> this. I don't think you've ever identified the Biblical or >> doctrinal basis for the gift you claim so regularly. > > Andrew has the gift to awaken the sinner to Christ's light. Looks like a judgement from you. Idiot. > As anyone who is awoken from a slumber, some get a might bit > irritated. Could your postings get more stupidly out of touch. Could you be less aware of the intent and content of Chung's posts? chung's "gifts" are the gifts of fanaticism, absolute surety with no support, dogmatic insistence on his feelings as "truth" and a singular obsession to combat anyone who doesn't absolutely agree with him, > I'll take the gift of song if music arouses the spirit, of healing > if someone is sick and need, of prophecy if it is God's will, of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > things through God's grace if it is for God's work and to lead > people to Christ's light. Your inability to see the differences between the "gifts" you cite and Chung's bullshit "Truth Ray" means you can't participate with the grownups here. > If people have told Andrew he has a gift of discernment which has > helped in their journey with Christ, then for that work amongst [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > God. Like a singer who deafens all but those who hear the > beautiful music of God, My nomination for the beginning of the single most stupid sentence on usenet. Go away. Bob > the mystery and purpose of this lies with The Holy Spirit. We can > simply offer ourselves up to become vessles for The Holy Spirit to > use so that His gifts can be divided amongst us for the benefit of > all of us. > > Carol T > > Andrew has the gift to awaken the sinner to Christ's light. > > Looks like a judgement from you. Idiot.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< An evangelising Christian would not see things through your eyes Bob. To rouse someone to Christ's light is the start of their journey. If all people found it easy to seek forgiveness then Andrew wouldn't endure their pain whilst they find Christ. Otherwise it's part of the course, and it's very much a gift to have the strength to endure it. It's a conscious choice they make, but people can find themselves evangelising for Satan by his dark and insidious works in them "But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry." KJ 2 Timothy 4:5 Your own path to God isn't being blocked by Andrew Bob, but by yourself. No matter how hard you attempt to disguise yourself behind a veil labelled Satan and draw ridicule to him, your own works are being seen. Judas hung Himself for the realisation of what he had done. Are you too proud that you have made The Lord's only two commandments too much of a mountain for you to move? Love the Lord God with all your heart, mind and soul. Love your neighbour as yourself. Who are your neighbours Bob and where will you find them? Self hatred and loathing fed by the hand of others is a destructive force and it's hurting this world. Seek forgiveness Bob and forgive those who have trespassed against you, in Christ's name. Don't look for, and demand, perfections in others to bury your own needs for forgiveness, but strive for the perfection of Christ. Have you really become like Paul, the chief of all sinners, that you believe you are beyond redemption? Somehow I don't think so because I know that you have a love of others. You are worthy of Christ's death Bob because He loves this world, seek Him and speak with Him. Do NOT tempt others to duel with you in bitter words against God. If they are with The Holy Spirit then you tempt the Lord your God not them. Put aside animosities toward Andrew, empty you mind of all others, and be with Christ's Holy Spirit in a prayer of forgiveness. "And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." KJ Luke 11:9-10 This is ultimately about _you_ and your saviour, _you and your future, _you_ and your family's future. Carol T >>>Andrew has the gift to awaken the sinner to Christ's light. >> >>Looks like a judgement from you. Idiot.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > An evangelising Christian would not see things through your eyes Bob. Thank. God. Bob > > > Andrew has the gift to awaken the sinner to Christ's light. > > > > Looks like a judgement from you. Idiot.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Actually, it is an observation on her part. > An evangelising Christian would not see things through your eyes Bob. > To rouse someone to Christ's light is the start of their journey. If [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Carol T For this, Bob remains in my prayers to God, in Christ's name. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >>>>Andrew has the gift to awaken the sinner to Christ's light. >>> >>>Looks like a judgement from you. Idiot.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > Actually, it is an observation on her part. Actually, you're linguistically incompetent, but no news there. Here's the distinction. I don't expect you to look at it any more honestly than you do anything else, but this isn't for you. It's for all the people who might actually think you merely make "observations." judgment, n. 1. the act of judging; the act or process of the mind in comparing its ideas to find their agreement or disagreement, and to ascertain truth; the process of examining facts and arguments to ascertain propriety and justice; the process of examining the relations between one proposition and another. 2. the ability to come to opinions of things; the power to compare ideas and ascertain the relations of terms and propositions; understanding; good sense; as, a man of sound judgement. [] 5. opinion; notion; as, in my judgment, the case is hopeless. Carol has formed a conclusion; an *opinion*. It's based on both her obviously incompetent powers of observation (strongly colored with wishful thinking) *and* the subsequent formation of an opinion. Since there are no objective facts to support the opinion (and I mean NO facts), it has to have resulted from her formulation of some results that she thinks could accrue from your actions. Observations would merely be things like "Chung is a liar." Or "Chung is a quack." No judgement is really necessary when the proof is so blatant. In this case, however, since there's *no* proof for the *opinion* and a good deal of evidence for the contrary position, it's a judgement. But slippery Chung has to spin his condemnations and innuendoes as merely "observations" because he has dishonestly asserted that he makes no judgments. In this, he lies. As in so many other things. So look at Carol's "observations" below and see which can be listed as simply noting objective facts or events. Objective being the big word here. Objective facts can be observations. Otherwise, they're judgments. *This* truth is simple. Bob >>An evangelising Christian would not see things through your eyes Bob. >>To rouse someone to Christ's light is the start of their journey. If >>all people found it easy to seek forgiveness then Andrew wouldn't >>endure their pain whilst they find Christ. <LOL> "Andrew wouldn't endure their pain..." Now he's Christlike... A truly zany *judgment*. >>Otherwise it's part of the >>course, and it's very much a gift to have the strength to endure it. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >>Judas hung Himself for the realisation of what he had done. Are you >>too proud that you have made The Lord's only two commandments "...only two commandments..." How simply silly. >> too much >>of a mountain for you to move? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> >>Put aside animosities toward Andrew, As soon as Chung stops his animosities towards everyone who doesn't endorse his insanities. >> empty you mind of all others, and >>be with Christ's Holy Spirit in a prayer of forgiveness. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>This is ultimately about _you_ and your saviour, _you and your future, >>_you_ and your family's future. And none of your business. Simple... Too many judgments about things you cannot know. Too many opinions about how others should live their lives, except those that identify themselves as fellow-travelers in your unChristian Christianity. >>Carol T Paul said "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief."(NKJ)1Ti 1:15 Not one of you can imagine your sin to be on the magnitude that Paul felt his was. Seek your saviour and repent. Carol T > Paul said "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, > that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Carol T Here's how: http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 The answer to the question "Why?" can be discerned in the threads of discussion that emanate from the OP referenced by the link above. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 > >>>>>>> It's hard to have a gift that doesn't exist, and most people > see this. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Andrew has the gift to awaken the sinner to Christ's light. As anyone > who is awoken from a slumber, some get a might bit irritated. That light is truth. Prying folks eyes open to see the light does did to both awaken and irritate. > I'll take the gift of song if music arouses the spirit, of healing if > someone is sick and need, of prophecy if it is God's will, of [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Carol T May all spiritual gifts from God be used fully to glorify Him, in Christ's name. You remain in my prayers, dear sister whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 It seems to me I heard somewhere that Carol T wrote in article <9bff2a56.0408261849.47dd6e50@posting.google.com>: >>>>>>>> It's hard to have a gift that doesn't exist, and most people >see this. >> I don't think you've ever identified the Biblical or doctrinal basis for >> the gift you claim so regularly.<<<<<<<<<< >Andrew has the gift to awaken the sinner to Christ's light. As anyone >who is awoken from a slumber, some get a might bit irritated. >I'll take the gift of song if music arouses the spirit, of healing if >someone is sick and need, of prophecy if it is God's will, of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >through God's grace if it is for God's work and to lead people to >Christ's light. >If people have told Andrew he has a gift of discernment which has >helped in their journey with Christ, then for that work amongst them >at that particular moment in time he has, because they have >experienced it. What others may have told Andrew bears no weight in determining whether, first, there is such a thing as a gift of truth discernment and, second, whether he or any other person has such a gift. I note that you also duck the question of Biblical or doctrinal support for the existence of such a gift. See? I too have the gift of truth discernment. :-) >It's a strange and wonderful thing receiving a spiritual gift from >God. Like a singer who deafens all but those who hear the beautiful >music of God, the mystery and purpose of this lies with The Holy >Spirit. We can simply offer ourselves up to become vessles for The >Holy Spirit to use so that His gifts can be divided amongst us for the >benefit of all of us. Touchy feelie experiences feel good (warning: tautology). People have feel-good experiences under the influence of great outdoor scenery, a few good glasses of wine, licit or illicit drugs, and even mental illness. SignatureDon donkirk@covad.net > It seems to me I heard somewhere that Carol T wrote in article > <9bff2a56.0408261849.47dd6e50@posting.google.com>: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > first, there is such a thing as a gift of truth discernment and, second, > whether he or any other person has such a gift. Correct. > I note that you also > duck the question of Biblical or doctrinal support for the existence of > such a gift. Carol seems to recognize that this discourse should focus on Him and not what on "gifts." > See? I too have the gift of truth discernment. :-) I do not sense that. However, I do sense that Carol also has God's gift of truth discernment. > >It's a strange and wonderful thing receiving a spiritual gift from > >God. Like a singer who deafens all but those who hear the beautiful [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > few good glasses of wine, licit or illicit drugs, and even mental > illness. Ime, as a physician, folks with mental illness rarely feel good (bipolars with mania would be one exception). You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >>>>>>>>> And yet later we read about Paul arguing with Peter and other disciples > that the Jewish Christians no longer had to obey the letter of the law > but were freed from such restrictions by their faith--<<<<< The law is fulfilled by Christ for us because we love Him and each other. In this love there is no law of the prophets which are broken because we would be failing Christ and the purpose of His death for us. For example; how can we steal for a neighbour if each and everyone can be our neighbour whom we love, how can we kill those we love, how can we despise those we love, how can we not forgive someone we love and so forth. So a breaking of the old law of the prophets is contrary to our love of Christ. Hence Christ fulfils the law, but also removes it so that we may be freed from it. Those who haven't accepted Christ as their saviour, but still seek God's forgiveness as a child of God, still live under the law. You can see this in the Muslim and in the Jewish faiths, more so in the Muslim faith. >>>> [Some] truth is simple; so is much error. <<<<<<< I will pray that you come to understand the simplicity of the complexities you seek out. Carol T > >>>>>>>>> And yet later we read about Paul arguing with Peter and > other disciples [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Carol T That would be my prayer as well, dear sister whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 It seems to me I heard somewhere that Carol T wrote in article <9bff2a56.0408261806.2500593f@posting.google.com>: >>>>>>>>>> And yet later we read about Paul arguing with Peter and >other disciples >> that the Jewish Christians no longer had to obey the letter of the law >> but were freed from such restrictions by their faith--<<<<< >The law is fulfilled by Christ for us because we love Him and each >other. In this love there is no law of the prophets which are broken [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >and so forth. So a breaking of the old law of the prophets is contrary >to our love of Christ. >Hence Christ fulfils the law, but also removes it so that we may be >freed from it. Yet I noted that Andrew first quoted Jesus' teaching that the Law and the Prophets would not pass away, but followed in the next message with a passage saying Jesus had done away with the law, wrapping everything into two commandments. How can those two be logically reconciled if they are to be taken literally? Of course some may be like Humpty Dumpty, whose creator endowed him with the ability to believe two impossible things before breakfast. > Those who haven't accepted Christ as their saviour, but still seek >God's forgiveness as a child of God, still live under the law. You can >see this in the Muslim and in the Jewish faiths, more so in the Muslim >faith. Totally different from the Law of the Torah, which Muslims have nothing to do with, and which many Reform Jews do not observe. >>>>> [Some] truth is simple; so is much error. <<<<<<< >I will pray that you come to understand the simplicity of the >complexities you seek out. I wish you the power to understand the beauty of the complexities of the Universe. SignatureDon donkirk@covad.net > It seems to me I heard somewhere that Carol T wrote in article > <9bff2a56.0408261806.2500593f@posting.google.com>: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > the Prophets would not pass away, but followed in the next message with > a passage saying Jesus had done away with the law, So it would seem to someone without God's gift of truth discernment. > wrapping everything > into two commandments. Truth is simple and thereby simplifies. > How can those two be logically reconciled if > they are to be taken literally? The two are reconciled by the truth and not by logic. This is an example of the problems inherent with groping around with logic when one does not have God's gift of truth discernment. > Of course some may be like Humpty Dumpty, whose creator endowed him > with the ability to believe two impossible things before breakfast. You do remind me of an egg sitting on the wall. Only Christ will be able to save you after you fall. > > Those who haven't accepted Christ as their saviour, but still seek > >God's forgiveness as a child of God, still live under the law. You can [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Totally different from the Law of the Torah, which Muslims have nothing > to do with, and which many Reform Jews do not observe. ...which is not the Law that Christ refers to in Matthew 5. > >>>>> [Some] truth is simple; so is much error. <<<<<<< > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I wish you the power to understand the beauty of the complexities of the > Universe. For those with God's gift of truth discernment, those complexities are illusory. The beauty resides in the truth. > -- > Don > donkirk@covad.net You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >>>>>>>>> Totally different from the Law of the Torah, which Muslims have nothing to do with, and which many Reform Jews do not observe.<<<<<<<<<<< Which laws are Muslims and Jews under? Carol T It seems to me I heard somewhere that Carol T wrote in article <9bff2a56.0408290516.29c79815@posting.google.com>: >>>>>>>>>> Totally different from the Law of the Torah, which Muslims >have nothing to do with, and which many Reform Jews do not >observe.<<<<<<<<<<< >Which laws are Muslims and Jews under? I assume you've heard of the Quran, the source book for Islam? Note that I did not say anything about *all* Jews but only about some/many *Reform* Jews. Among Reform Jews there are those who, like some self-identified Christians, agnostics, and atheists, are guided more by a life philosophy than by a set of scriptures and doctrines. HTH SignatureDon donkirk@covad.net > I assume you've heard of the Quran, the source book for Islam? I read a lot of The Koran. There is a difference of living with law and freedom from law through the forgiveness of sin. A man who cannot be forgiven because he does not accept Christ's suffering as his sacrifice, and yet seeks God's forgiveness, will live under the law of his Father. If a father has two sons, who does he have most love for? Is it the son who will stay loyally by his side praising his every move, or is it the son who becomes free and goes his own way. Is it a son who becomes most wise or the son who is most foolish? Is it the differences between sons which make a greater unconditional love from a father? What boundaries does love have when a father is with his children? Is it the open arms of the father or the reluctance of the child for his disapproval of the sins his father has seen in him? Surely a father who loves His children will send a Son of His to fetch back those children whose sins have been keeping them away? And that son, who loves his father with all His heart, mind and soul, will be prepared to die for this purpose because he too loves His brother. Christ's message is that you are no less of your Father's son than _any_ other man and this is why He was prepared to die to help you back to Him. Christ's love for you is so great that He wanted you to have your father back and if it cost Him His life then this was to be so. "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." Gal 4:22-6 If you see sinners in any faiths or walk of life, be it Muslim, Jew, Hindu, even some Christian's, who have not understood God's ways of peace, love and forgiveness, then you have seen many sons whom Christ holds a light for; as He does for us. Carol T It seems to me I heard somewhere that Carol T wrote in article <9bff2a56.0408300435.220f2917@posting.google.com>: >> I assume you've heard of the Quran, the source book for Islam? >I read a lot of The Koran. Then there was no need for you to ask what law Muslims are under, and the rest of your message is beside the point. SignatureDon donkirk@covad.net > Then there was no need for you to ask what law Muslims are under, and > the rest of your message is beside the point.<<<<<<<<< Many self labelled people say they live under the perceived laws of their label. However, until we know the law for ourselves we can never know if they do or not. It is the will of the free Spirit to take away law. Carol T > >>>>>>>>> Totally different from the Law of the Torah, which Muslims > have nothing to do with, and which many Reform Jews do not > observe.<<<<<<<<<<< > > Which laws are Muslims and Jews under? Such questions are asked by those with God's gift of truth discernment. > Carol T You remain in my prayers, dear sister whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >>>>>>>>>>>Totally different from the Law of the Torah, which Muslims >>have nothing to do with, and which many Reform Jews do not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Such questions are asked by those with God's gift of truth discernment. <LOL> Such questions are asked by people who don't know the answers. Poor struggling Chung. Gotta get that "truth discernment" folly into as many posts as possible... Silly display. Bob > Here is an example of what I mean - Old Testament, God's very word > suggests 'an eye for an eye is the way we do things here' - the New > Testament - 'I say scrap that old Truth....the way forward is to turn > the other cheek now!' Dear Mozz, The O/T is an epic of the exodus of a people's raised in captivity and freed by God. These will have been people, who although freed by God, didn't automatically understand His ways for them or plans for their future, this understanding was to take generations. The O/T is entrenched with Jewish history and ways they will have grown up with, and the sins they will have carried from their forefathers. It is a living record of their struggles as they grew in number, not just in generations, but in their faith too. This was ongoing until one day that faith became perfected in one man for all nations. Through God's Holy Spirit Jesus realised that the suppression of sin was bad for men, that the relief of sin was fundamental to the well being of the whole of humanity, not just the self. What you practice and spread is self indulgence. And your belief that it's good for children is nonsense. They _need_ to know that The Lord God is at their side in their every waking moment, and other children need to see His peace in those children who know God, so that they too can seek out their saviour with an understanding they can grasp. >>>>>> May the truth of the buddha/dharma/sangha be revealed to you swiftly > so you benefit all sentient beings as soon as possible.<<<< His truth, and the horror of his followers doing, was brought home to me when I picked up a book in a hotel claiming that he 'was' God. Wise he may have been, I am not disputing that, but perhaps his teachings missed the mark with some of his followers. Had he claimed to have been God, or even known God, he would have magnified The Lord's name before others. Be careful not to stand by the sin of others who have claimed him to be what he was not, because this man of wisdom you know will be made a fool by others otherwise. "What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it [is] laid over with gold and silver, and [there is] no breath at all in the midst of it. But the LORD [is] in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him." Habakkuk 2:18-20 Carol T >>Here is an example of what I mean - Old Testament, God's very word >>suggests 'an eye for an eye is the way we do things here' - the New >>Testament - 'I say scrap that old Truth....the way forward is to turn >>the other cheek now!' > > Dear Mozz, > What you practice and spread is self indulgence. Carol, you solipsistic f.cking idiot. Perhaps you need a lot less smug pride and a lot less religious fanaticism and a lot more silence. You are an overbearing bore incapable of actually writing to the people you assail. The only cheek you deserve turned to you is an a.s cheek. Go away. Bob > You are an overbearing bore incapable of actually writing to the > people you assail. The only cheek you deserve turned to you is an a.s [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Bob<<<<<<<<<<< Dear Bob, Put Satan behind you as Christ teaches, he has no place to order God's Spirit out of your life. He has no power or dominion over God, let Satan have no power or dominion over you. All the works that you do let them be for the goodness of this world and others. Do this out of the strength of Christ's love. Let all your thoughts be a prayer through God, do not hand them over into Satan's hands. "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord." KJ 2Cr 3:18 "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:" KJ Jam 1:23 Carol T >>You are an overbearing bore incapable of actually writing to the >>people you assail. The only cheek you deserve turned to you is an a.s [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Dear Bob, Dear fuckwit Carol. You. Just. Proved. My. Point. Bob > Put Satan behind you as Christ teaches, he has no place to order God's > Spirit out of your life. He has no power or dominion over God, let [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Carol T > > You are an overbearing bore incapable of actually writing to the > > people you assail. The only cheek you deserve turned to you is an a.s [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Carol T May all who have eyes, read. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 > May all who have eyes, read. May all who can read, comprehend! > SomeGuy wrote > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > Article: "3-month-old briard-beagle mix dogs that were known > to have the defective RPE65 gene and had been blind since birth." > > May all who have eyes, read. > > May all who can read, comprehend! That would be my wish too: Retinal degeneration is by definition a condition where the retina degenerates after birth (i.e. blindness sets in after birth). Indeed, this truth is in the article (even though the author gets confused): "Puppies and human infant with defective RPE65 genes produce a mutant form of the RPE65 protein, resulting in early vision loss, degeneration of the retinas and near-total blindness later in life." Truth is immutable. Those who are able to discern the truth, know this. You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 humblest person in the universe, < drivel snipped> | Andrew The heathen Chung crossposts yet again, turning off the masses and saddening the God that he purports to serve. Prove that you are the Christian that you say and stop your evil, rulebreaking crossposting. > humblest person in the universe, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Prove that you are the Christian that you say and stop your evil, > rulebreaking crossposting. Sorry my being openly Christian bothers you. You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 || < drivel snipped> ||| ||| Andrew The heathen Chung crossposts yet again, turning off the masses and saddening the God that he purports to serve. Prove that you are the Christian that you say and stop your evil, rulebreaking crossposting. >|| < drivel snipped> >||| [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Prove that you are the Christian that you say and stop your evil, > rulebreaking crossposting. You're wasting your breathe. In truth, he is completely unable to turn the other cheek without crowing about it. His sinful vanity will not allow anyone else to have the last word, EVER. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." > >|| < drivel snipped> > >||| [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You're wasting your breathe. Sorry you feel this discussion is a waste of time. > In truth, he is completely unable to > turn the other cheek without crowing about it. Sorry my being openly Christian bothers you. > His sinful vanity > will not allow anyone else to have the last word, EVER. Bob Pastorio can have all the last words he wants :-) Truth is simple. > -- > jamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. > "There's a seeker born every minute." "There is only one truth for a seeker to find and that would be Christ." Truth is simple. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 > Bob Pastorio can have all the last words he wants :-) <LOL> Truth based on logical thinking with facts is the last word. I guess this means that Chung is back to his "no reply to Bob" mode. Understandable. No Chunglish answers can prevail against an insurmountable mountain of fact, logic and history. Bob > || < drivel snipped> > ||| [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Prove that you are the Christian that you say and stop your evil, > rulebreaking crossposting. Sorry you are bothered by my being openly Christian. You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 > Hello Andrew, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Everyone knows there is no God other than that which their > imaginations may conjure. That is not what I discern (thanks to His gift of truth discernment :-). All praises belong to God, whom I love with all my heart, soul, and mind. > >> Also, why would an atheist say 'God created buddha'? > > > >Why would someone not saying something mean that s/he does not know that > >something? > > I am an athiest. I know that God does not exist. Your attempts to convince me that God does not exist betrays what is in your heart (see below). > >> They do not > >> believe in a God at all. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I do not believe in Santa Claus. Your choice. > By making that observation Choices are not observations. > I have affirmed the existence of Santa > Claus according to you? If this were your line of reasoning to convince me that there is no Santa, your confusing your choice to not believe in Santa Claus with your delusional "observation" of the non-existence of Santa Claus (delusional because non-existence is by definition not observable) would actually affirm that though you deny it, you know it. Yes, your language betrays you. Check-mate. Truth is simple. You remain in my prayers, dear Mozz whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >> Hello Andrew, >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >>> The observation that that have made that choice affirms that >>> they know there is a God (to reject). This is on the face of it simply wordplay that is definitionally untrue. To deny the existence of what someone else believes is not to recognize the validity of the belief. It is specifically to assert its non-existence or invalidity. Expressing disbelief confers no dignity or reality on that being dispatched. >>> Truth is simple. This time, it is. >> I do not believe in Santa Claus. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Choices are not observations. Rather stupid wordplay like this is poor form in a real debate. It's Chung's old Humpty Dumpty style of defining words to suit his current obsession. >> I have affirmed the existence of Santa Claus according to you? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Claus (delusional because non-existence is by definition not > observable) There are two values of "observation" used interchangeably and wrongly here by Chung. One is to sense some event or events - to see, hear, smell, etc.. Another is to render a thought or insight that is the result of thinking rather than sensing - as in to observe the connection between higher numbers. Non-existence of an idea can be pondered, a conclusion reached and the whole idea expressed as an observation. It in no way concludes that the idea had to first be true to be disbelieved. > would actually affirm that though you deny it, you know > it. Yes, your language betrays you. Hogwash. Wordplay to compete and try to "win" some ego-driven contest. > Check-mate. > > Truth is simple. This is simple insanity. It's convoluted sophistry to no end. It defies rationality and it only serves to demonstrate Chung's obsessive, fetishistic need to be triumphant in his dealings with the rest of humanity. Rather than any kind of checkmate, he has utterly misjudged and utterly misunderstood the dynamic of the interchange and shown himself to be deficient in understanding and even more deficient in integrity. It's a shabby display of spurious one-upsmanship. Pity it's so gossamer. No news. Bob >> I am an athiest. I know that God does not exist. > >Your attempts to convince me that God does not exist betrays what is >in your heart (see below). Your attempts to convince me a God 'does'exist betray what is in your heart Andrew. Doubt. All zealots suffer from the same condition - they desperately require affirmation from others in order to maintain their own belief systems because in truth, unconsciously - they doubt. >> I do not believe in Santa Claus. > >Your choice. Correct. >> By making that observation > >Choices are not observations. Wilful obscuration & splitting hairs - trying to divert the main point as usual Andrew... >> I have affirmed the existence of Santa >> Claus according to you? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >would actually affirm that though you deny it, you know it. Yes, your >language betrays you. Read some Wittgenstein Andrew and you will start to understand the danger inherent in language. My line of reasoning is simple and thus - pay attention and stop trying to be clever (it doesn't suit you, you are far too clumsy at it) - It is my 'choice' to believe that Santa does not actually exist (other than in the imaginations of children - as God exists in the imagination of Christians/Jews/Musilims etc). By your previous statement of warped logic - my refuting the existence of Santa 'proves' the existence of Santa!!! The way you (mis)use logic Andrew merely allows you to be wrong with authority! >Check-mate. This betrays the true Andrew. The not so-humble person who desperately needs to assert his ego - a charade of 'wining or losing' because in reality he has no self esteem at all and needs to over-compensate. I feel for you my friend. >Truth is simple. As I always demonstrate. May all sentient beings be freed of delusion. Mozz x > >> I am an athiest. I know that God does not exist. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Your attempts to convince me a God 'does'exist betray what is in your > heart Andrew. No attempt here. You *know* God exists. > Doubt. Why would I doubt what everyone knows? > All zealots suffer from the same condition - they > desperately require affirmation from others in order to maintain their > own belief systems because in truth, unconsciously - they doubt. It would seem then that you are a zealot by your own definition observing the behavior you are exhibiting here in SMC. As you should recall, I just pointed this out in another post some microseconds earlier. > >> I do not believe in Santa Claus. > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Wilful obscuration & splitting hairs - Different hairs on different people are already split by God. > trying to divert the main > point as usual Andrew... It remains my choice to use God's gift of truth discernment toward glorifying Him. > >> I have affirmed the existence of Santa > >> Claus according to you? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Read some Wittgenstein Andrew and you will start to understand the > danger inherent in language. Sorry you see danger here. Without Christ, there is fear in everything. > My line of reasoning is simple and thus - pay attention and stop > trying to be clever (it doesn't suit you, you are far too clumsy at > it) - You do realize that you are trying unsuccessfully to rewrite what you have already written, posted, and archived, don't you ? > It is my 'choice' to believe that Santa does not actually exist (other > than in the imaginations of children - as God exists in the > imagination of Christians/Jews/Musilims etc). Correct. > By your previous statement of warped logic - my refuting the existence > of Santa 'proves' the existence of Santa!!! To restate the logic I use in a simpler sentence: By "selling" your choice to disbelieve God as your observation that God does not exist, you betray that you actually believe God exists thereby explaining the extraordinary efforts to "wish" God away. > The way you (mis)use logic Andrew merely allows you to be wrong with > authority! All authority belongs to my heavenly Father, whom I love with all my heart, soul, and mind(filled with logic). > >Check-mate. > > This betrays the true Andrew. This glorified God whom I serve. > The not so-humble person who desperately > needs to assert his ego - It remains my choice to use God's gift of truth discernment to glorify Him by effectively countering your flawed reasoning for disbelieving Him. > a charade of 'wining or losing' because in > reality he has no self esteem at all and needs to over-compensate. Truth is not charade. > I > feel for you my friend. I sense hatred rather than compassion here. This really does not bode well for your dharma. > >Truth is simple. > > As I always demonstrate. As if those blind to the truth can demonstrate it. > May all sentient beings be freed of delusion. May all beings claim their freedom by accepting Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, for He is the way, the truth, and the life. > Mozz x You remain in my prayers, dear Mozz whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 > Mozz wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > As you should recall, I just pointed this out in another post some > microseconds earlier. The use of microseconds, rather than seconds, indicate that the post was made less than one second prior to this one. Yet a review of the archives indicate that you did not post any articles in this thread within the same minute! Therefore, dear Andrew, you are a liar. By the way, did you know that your little friend Mu thinks you don't spend enough time in the real world? > > Mozz wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > The use of microseconds, rather than seconds, indicate that the post was > made less than one second prior to this one. You may choose to infer that. > Yet a review of the archives > indicate that you did not post any articles in this thread within the same > minute! It seems your review was incomplete. Would suggest you have a gander at: http://makeashorterlink.com/?O27015A19 > Therefore, dear Andrew, you are a liar. It is clear you do not have God's gift of truth discernment. This is a good example of the test of time being discussed elsewhere. All may look back (hindsight) on this as proof of two things: (1) There is such a thing as God's gift of truth discernment. (2) You don't have it. > By the way, did you know that your little friend Mu thinks you don't spend > enough time in the real world? I do not have God's gift of claivoyance. Sorry. You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 > > > As you should recall, I just pointed this out in another post some > > > microseconds earlier. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > http://makeashorterlink.com/?O27015A19 Yes ... and ... ? > > Therefore, dear Andrew, you are a liar. Andrew, did you, or did you not, make two posts within the same second? > It is clear you do not have God's gift of truth discernment. However, I do have the gift of bullshit detection (and it frequently goes off when I see your posts). > This is a good example of the test of time being discussed elsewhere. > > All may look back (hindsight) on this as proof of two things: > > (1) There is such a thing as God's gift of truth discernment. Yet you are unable to prove it. How convenient. > (2) You don't have it. Can't have something that doesn't exist. > > By the way, did you know that your little friend Mu thinks you > > don't spend enough time in the real world? > > I do not have God's gift of claivoyance. Sorry. You do have the animal gift of seeing, no? You do have the human gift of reading, no? You do have the 20th-century gift of a computer on the internet, no? Yet you can not read the posts of your little friend, Mu? How curious. > > > > As you should recall, I just pointed this out in another post some > > > > microseconds earlier. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Andrew, did you, or did you not, make two posts within the same second? The former. Truth is simple. You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Please consider this: http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 > > Andrew, did you, or did you not, make two posts within the same second? > > The former. The FORMER? What kind of reply is that? Wasn't it you who said "The untruthful have a hard time answering yes/no questions truthfully"? So, not only do you have the mysterious power of the truth ray, you also have super-human typing speed! Oops! Did I say truth ray? Remember THIS exchange (and my reply)? > > Would suggest you read the article. The puppies with retinal > > degeneration were not born blind. They did have early vision loss: [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Article: "3-month-old briard-beagle mix dogs that were known > to have the defective RPE65 gene and had been blind since birth." > > > Andrew, did you, or did you not, make two posts within the same second? > > > > The former. > > The FORMER? What kind of reply is that? The truth. > Wasn't it you who said "The > untruthful have a hard time answering yes/no questions truthfully"? Yes. > So, not only do you have the mysterious power of the truth ray, you also > have super-human typing speed! God has blessed me with many gifts. All praises belong to my heavenly Father, whom I love with all my heart, soul, and mind. > Oops! Did I say truth ray? Remember THIS exchange (and my reply)? Yes. That exchange clearly demonstrated your lack of discernment. Here's why: Retinal degeneration is by definition a condition where the retina degenerates after birth (i.e. blindness sets in after birth). Indeed, this truth is in the article (even though the author gets confused): "Puppies and human infant with defective RPE65 genes produce a mutant form of the RPE65 protein, resulting in early vision loss, degeneration of the retinas and near-total blindness later in life." Truth is immutable. Those who are able to discern the truth, know this. You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 > > > Andrew, did you, or did you not, make two posts within the same second? > > > > The former. > > The FORMER? What kind of reply is that? Wasn't it you who said "The > untruthful have a hard time answering yes/no questions truthfully"? It's a "yes", based upon the construction of the question. > So, not only do you have the mysterious power of the truth ray, you also > have super-human typing speed! One simply composes a post, places it in the "Outbox" of one's news reader, and then composes another post, and places it in the "Outbox" of one's news reader ... and one may repeat the procedure a dozen times. When ready to send all the posts, one then hits the "Send" button, and the news reader will send all of the posts serially. Depending upon the number of posts and the speed of one's system, the posts could all be posted with the same date/time stamp, or, perhaps with date/time stamps showing consecutive minutes. In short, it is entirely possible that two (or more) posts by Dr. Chung bear the same date/time stamp, down to the second. Learn something about things you choose to post about, preferably before you ignorantly post, and call someone a liar into the bargain. Steve SignatureThe above posting is neither a legal opinion nor legal advice, because we do not have an attorney-client relationship, and should not be construed as either. This posting does not represent the opinion of my employer, but is merely my personal view. To reply, delete _spamout_ and replace with the numeral 3 > > > > Andrew, did you, or did you not, make > > > > two posts within the same second? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It's a "yes", based upon the construction of the question. So, why didn't he just answer "yes"? Is it because he had a hard time being truthful? > In short, it is entirely possible that two (or more) posts by Dr. Chung bear > the same date/time stamp, down to the second. Quite right. However, let's have another look at Andrew's statement: "As you should recall, I just pointed this out in another post some microseconds earlier." If the post was already sent out, then he implies that it was microseconds ago. Thus, he is equiped with super-human typing speed, no? If he is predicting that his previous statement, and the current one, would be sent out within microseconds of each other, well, he has the power of clarevoyance then. Oh, except that he has quite plainly stated that this is not the case. > Learn something about things you choose to post about, > preferably before you ignorantly post, As Andrew would say, "your judgement." > and call someone a liar into the bargain. Well, there's a bit of a grey area between liar and total bullshitter, to be sure. Hello Andrew, >> Your attempts to convince me a God 'does'exist betray what is in your >> heart Andrew. > >No attempt here. You *know* God exists. I know God exists only in your imagination and the imagination of other theists. >> Doubt. > >Why would I doubt what everyone knows? Everyone knows God is not real. >> All zealots suffer from the same condition - they >> desperately require affirmation from others in order to maintain their >> own belief systems because in truth, unconsciously - they doubt. > >It would seem then that you are a zealot by your own definition >observing the behavior you are exhibiting here in SMC. Sorry my reasonable refutations of God's existence trouble you so much. Let others decide who is more zealous out of the two of us. >> Read some Wittgenstein Andrew and you will start to understand the >> danger inherent in language. > >Sorry you see danger here. Without Christ, there is fear in everything. Therefore you must fear a great deal Andrew, as you know there is no Christ other than in your imagination and story books. >To restate the logic I use in a simpler sentence: > >By "selling" your choice to disbelieve God as your observation that God >does not exist, you betray that you actually believe God exists thereby >explaining the extraordinary efforts to "wish" God away. So by your logic I must betray that I actually do believe in fairies if I say "fairies don't really exist"? >> The way you (mis)use logic Andrew merely allows you to be wrong with >> authority! > >All authority belongs to my heavenly Father, whom I love with all my >heart, soul, and mind(filled with logic). All form is emptiness, all emptiness is form. >It remains my choice to use God's gift of truth discernment to glorify >Him by effectively countering your flawed reasoning for disbelieving >Him. And once again you have failed. >> a charade of 'wining or losing' because in >> reality he has no self esteem at all and needs to over-compensate. > >Truth is not charade. Agreed. Although you seem far from understanding Truth. >I sense hatred rather than compassion here. > >This really does not bode well for your dharma. Poor Andrew. I pray your persecution complex swiftly fades away. >As if those blind to the truth can demonstrate it. My point exactly. I pray you swiftly find the dharma, and sweep away your veil of delusion. Love Mozz x > Hello Andrew, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I know God exists Glad you agree :-) You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >>Hello Andrew, >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Glad you agree :-) Nice editing job from Chung. Changed the meaning 180° from what Mozz posted. I bet you're proud of him. Bob > You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Dear Andrew, Oh dear. You seem to have deliberately 'edited out' my main point. You cannot 'edit out' peoples conflicting views I'm afraid Andrew, as much as you might wish you could :-) >> >No attempt here. You *know* God exists. >> >> I know God exists My actual quote in full: I know God exists 'only in your imagination and the imagination of other theists.' >Glad you agree :-) Glad you agree with my general thrust. Love Mozz x > Dear Andrew, > > Oh dear. You seem to have deliberately 'edited out' my main point. Your soul was trying to break through before your mind shut it down. > You > cannot 'edit out' peoples conflicting views I'm afraid Andrew, as > much as you might wish you could :-) With God's help and blessing I am able to do anything. > >> >No attempt here. You *know* God exists. > >> > >> I know God exists > > My actual quote in full: I know God exists 'only in your imagination > and the imagination of other theists.' Soul of Mozz: I know God exists... Mind of Mozz: only in your imagination... Dharma of Mozz: ...and the imagination of other theists. > >Glad you agree :-) > > Glad you agree with my general thrust. I sense this has been quite an internal struggle for you. You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. May your soul win, in Christ's holy name. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Dear Andrew, >Your soul was trying to break through before your mind shut it down. I do not believe in the concept of 'soul' as well you know from our previous delightful conversations on these subjects. >> You >> cannot 'edit out' peoples conflicting views I'm afraid Andrew, as >> much as you might wish you could :-) > >With God's help and blessing I am able to do anything. That was the kind of response the Inquisition gave when asked to account for their despicable horrors. >> My actual quote in full: I know God exists 'only in your imagination >> and the imagination of other theists.' > >Soul of Mozz: I know God exists... There is no soul, other than a concept projected to symbolise the arbitrary 'centre' of the psyche. >Mind of Mozz: only in your imagination... Correct. >Dharma of Mozz: ...and the imagination of other theists. Correct. >> Glad you agree with my general thrust. > >I sense this has been quite an internal struggle for you. I am sorry you wish to believe it has been a struggle for me. This wish of yours betrays the failure of your applied 'spiritual practice'. >You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. > >May your soul win, in Christ's holy name. May Wisdom and Compassion lift you to the Truth dear friend. Please ask if you require any help. Mozz x > Dear Andrew, > > >Your soul was trying to break through before your mind shut it down. > > I do not believe in the concept of 'soul' as well you know Yes, I know that is how your mind attempts to control your soul. > from our > previous delightful conversations on these subjects. Yes, I have found our "conversations" to be delightful but you keep ending them to recover by meditating. May God give you the stamina to continue this as long as you find this exchange delightful, in Christ's name. > >> You > >> cannot 'edit out' peoples conflicting views I'm afraid Andrew, as [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That was the kind of response the Inquisition gave when asked to > account for their despicable horrors. Sorry you had bad experiences from the Inquisition. May God heal you, in Christ's name. > >> My actual quote in full: I know God exists 'only in your imagination > >> and the imagination of other theists.' [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > There is no soul, other than a concept projected to symbolise the > arbitrary 'centre' of the psyche. Sounds like you have been brainwashed. > >Mind of Mozz: only in your imagination... > > Correct. Does not bode well for your brain. > >Dharma of Mozz: ...and the imagination of other theists. > > Correct. Does not bode well for your dharma. > >> Glad you agree with my general thrust. > > > >I sense this has been quite an internal struggle for you. > > I am sorry you wish to believe it has been a struggle for me. It is what I sense. > This wish of yours betrays the failure of your applied 'spiritual > practice'. If it were a wish. > >You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. > > > >May your soul win, in Christ's holy name. > > May Wisdom and Compassion lift you to the Truth dear friend. It remains my choice to walk with Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life, dear Mozz whom I love. > Please ask if you require any help. I sense weariness. > Mozz x You remain in my prayers, dear Mozz whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >>>> You cannot 'edit out' peoples conflicting views I'm afraid >>>> Andrew, as much as you might wish you could :-) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Sorry you had bad experiences from the Inquisition. May God heal > you, in Christ's name. What? Is Chung utterly insane? Does he even know what he's posting? Does it matter? To him? Bob >Yes, I know that is how your mind attempts to control your soul. And your mind attempts to escape into fantasy by playing 'let's pretend I have something called a soul'. Where is this 'soul' Andrew? What is it made of? Where does it reside? What are it's attributes? How do you know you have one? Do you feel it? If so, what does it feel like? And is it possible that these feelings could be attributable to some other explanation? >Yes, I have found our "conversations" to be delightful but you keep ending >them to recover by meditating. I'm sorry you continue to be obsessed by the desire to believe you tax me in some way. I have never left our conversations feeling a need to 'recover' or 'meditate'. Your delusions remain. >May God give you the stamina to continue this as long as you find this >exchange delightful, in Christ's name. I have much stamina already - no need to conjure a deity - thanks to my daily practice and healthy life. >Sorry you had bad experiences from the Inquisition. May God heal you, in >Christ's name. I was not old enough to be a victim of the Inquisiton Andrew. Neither was I on any of the many bloody crusades. Yet the point I make is relevant and well made. You are as blind and ignorant in your bigotry and blind faith as the religious 'authorities' were back then. Perhaps you are an apologist for these atrocities? Would you have agreed with one of the famous oft quoted commands from one of the sackings of Jerusalem which pronounced 'Kill every single man woman and child within these city walls - if any are truly innocent then it does not matter as God will know and He will save them". ??? >> There is no soul, other than a concept projected to symbolise the >> arbitrary 'centre' of the psyche. > >Sounds like you have been brainwashed. I think your pot/kettle interface is malfunctioning again here!!! :-) >Does not bode well for your brain. My advice - stick to cardiology and not neurology. >> I am sorry you wish to believe it has been a struggle for me. > >It is what I sense. I'm sorry to see your senses aren't working very well. >> Please ask if you require any help. > >I sense weariness. In yourself? Perhaps you should try some meditation to refresh your mind my dear friend. Love Mozz x > >Yes, I know that is how your mind attempts to control your soul. > > And your mind attempts to escape into fantasy by playing 'let's > pretend I have something called a soul'. > > Where is this 'soul' Andrew? My soul presently resides in my body. > What is it made of? Energy. > Where does it reside? Asked and answered already. > What are it's attributes? Created by God, it can be destroyed only by God. > How do you know you have one? The same way I know I have God's gift of vision. > Do you feel it? No. I do not feel my soul. I don't feel God's gift of vision either. > If so, what does it feel like? It would seem that you know only what you feel (touch). This reminds me of a seeing man closing his eyes and groping around to "see." This does not bode well for your dharma. > And is it possible that these feelings could be attributable to some > other explanation? It remains my choice not to grope around when I can see. > >Yes, I have found our "conversations" to be delightful but you keep ending > >them to recover by meditating. > > I'm sorry you continue to be obsessed by the desire to believe you tax > me in some way. I have never left our conversations feeling a need to > 'recover' or 'meditate'. Your delusions remain. Sorry the truth bothers you. > >May God give you the stamina to continue this as long as you find this > >exchange delightful, in Christ's name. > > I have much stamina already - We shall see. > no need to conjure a deity - Agree. > thanks to > my daily practice and healthy life. It remains my choice to thank God whom I love with all my heart, soul, and mind. > >Sorry you had bad experiences from the Inquisition. May God heal you, in > >Christ's name. > > I was not old enough to be a victim of the Inquisiton Andrew. Your language suggested that you were. Don't you believe in reincarnation and past lives, dear Mozz? > Neither > was I on any of the many bloody crusades. Yet the point I make is > relevant and well made. You are as blind and ignorant in your bigotry > and blind faith as the religious 'authorities' were back then. > Perhaps you are an apologist for these atrocities? It remains my choice to not judge others, including you. > Would you have agreed with one of the famous oft quoted commands from > one of the sackings of Jerusalem which pronounced 'Kill every single > man woman and child within these city walls - if any are truly > innocent then it does not matter as God will know and He will save > them". ??? It remains my choice to observe sin without judging as Christ has taught me in my walk with Him. > >> There is no soul, other than a concept projected to symbolise the > >> arbitrary 'centre' of the psyche. > > > >Sounds like you have been brainwashed. > > I think your pot/kettle interface is malfunctioning again here!!! :-) Your judgment. > >Does not bode well for your brain. > > My advice - stick to cardiology and not neurology. Sorry my opinion bothers you. This does not bode well for your dharma. > >> I am sorry you wish to believe it has been a struggle for me. > > > >It is what I sense. > > I'm sorry to see your senses aren't working very well. Your judgment. > >> Please ask if you require any help. > >> > >I sense weariness. > > In yourself? No. In you. > Perhaps you should try some meditation to refresh your > mind my dear friend. Christ refreshes me daily. Thank you for your suggestion anyway. You remain in my prayers, dear neighbor whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 >> If so, what does it feel like? > >It would seem that you know only what you feel (touch). How did you jump to that conclusion? >This reminds me of a seeing man closing his eyes and groping around to >"see." > >This does not bode well for your dharma. You seem to be projecting again. >> And is it possible that these feelings could be attributable to some >> other explanation? > >It remains my choice not to grope around when I can see. So you are unprepared to look at 'all' reasonable explanations. >> I'm sorry you continue to be obsessed by the desire to believe you tax >> me in some way. I have never left our conversations feeling a need to >> 'recover' or 'meditate'. Your delusions remain. > >Sorry the truth bothers you. How can the truth bother me - truth is wonderful :-) >> I was not old enough to be a victim of the Inquisiton Andrew. > >Your language suggested that you were. Don't you believe in >reincarnation and past lives, dear Mozz? You made yet another mistaken interpretation of the meaning in my language. Let this be a sobering lesson Andrew. Yes I do believe in reincarnation. >It remains my choice to not judge others, including you. And yet you judge me most of the time with your 'observations' :-) >> Would you have agreed with one of the famous oft quoted commands from >> one of the sackings of Jerusalem which pronounced 'Kill every single [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >It remains my choice to observe sin without judging as Christ has taught >me in my walk with Him. See above. >> I think your pot/kettle interface is malfunctioning again here!!! :-) > >Your judgment. My 'observation' :-) >> >Does not bode well for your brain. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >This does not bode well for your dharma. Is this your new mantra. :-) You remain in my dedications dear friend. Mozz x > >> If so, what does it feel like? > > > >It would seem that you know only what you feel (touch). > > How did you jump to that conclusion? You seem pre-occupied with how things feel. You don't believe in your own soul. You do not believe there are other senses. You struggle valiantly to deny God.... need I write more? > >This reminds me of a seeing man closing his eyes and groping around to > >"see." > > > >This does not bode well for your dharma. > > You seem to be projecting again. Perhaps if I believed in dharma. Sorry to disappoint you. You remind me of a blind man trying to pretend he can see and hoping noone will notice he can't. > >> And is it possible that these feelings could be attributable to some > >> other explanation? > > > >It remains my choice not to grope around when I can see. > > So you are unprepared to look at 'all' reasonable explanations. It remains my choice to use the senses God has given me. > >> I'm sorry you continue to be obsessed by the desire to believe you tax > >> me in some way. I have never left our conversations feeling a need to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > How can the truth bother me - truth is wonderful :-) They why are you trying so hard to deny it? > >> I was not old enough to be a victim of the Inquisiton Andrew. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You made yet another mistaken interpretation of the meaning in my > language. If I had, your answer to my question would have been "no" but if you look below, it is not. > Let this be a sobering lesson Andrew. May it be so for you. > Yes I do believe in reincarnation. May your soul's victory over your dharma change you. > >It remains my choice to not judge others, including you. > > And yet you judge me most of the time with your 'observations' :-) Sorry you find my observations to be judgmental. If you were able to see into my heart, you would find that it remains my choice to follow the lead of my Lord and Savior and continue to observe without judging as He has taught me. > >> Would you have agreed with one of the famous oft quoted commands from > >> one of the sackings of Jerusalem which pronounced 'Kill every single [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > See above. Please do. > >> I think your pot/kettle interface is malfunctioning again here!!! :-) > > > >Your judgment. > > My 'observation' :-) See above about blind man pretending to see. > >> >Does not bode well for your brain. > >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Is this your new mantra. :-) No, this is neither new nor a mantra. Sorry what I write bothers you so much. > You remain in my dedications dear friend. Thanks. > Mozz x You remain in my prayers, dear Mozz whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Dear Andrew, Thank you for continuing our conversations without recourse to name calling born of intolerance. I am glad you do not consider me a 'worthless TROLL' etc. >> >It would seem that you know only what you feel (touch). >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >own soul. You do not believe there are other senses. You struggle >valiantly to deny God.... need I write more? I never said I did not believe in other senses. Without 'feeling' that you had a soul, how else would you be aware of having one, other than being told you had one? >You remind me of a blind man trying to pretend he can see and hoping >noone will notice he can't. You think I cannot really see? Is this because I apparently do not 'see' what you want me to 'see' - ie: literal belief in Christ? >> >> And is it possible that these feelings could be attributable to some >> >> other explanation? >> > >> >It remains my choice not to grope around when I can see. You prefer to 'believe' in the Christian explanation and close your mind to any other. >> So you are unprepared to look at 'all' reasonable explanations. > >It remains my choice to use the senses God has given me. To use these senses in a very limited way though. >> How can the truth bother me - truth is wonderful :-) > >They why are you trying so hard to deny it? I do not deny truth, I always seek it out. >If I had, your answer to my question would have been "no" but if you >look below, it is not. ???? I do not understand this point you make ??? >> Yes I do believe in reincarnation. > >May your soul's victory over your dharma change you. I do not believe in 'soul' Andrew, but thank you for the kind wish. >> >It remains my choice to not judge others, including you. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the lead of my Lord and Savior and continue to observe without judging >as He has taught me. If it were merely observation you would not make value judgements like - 'sorry my opinion bothers you / you seem defensive' etc >> Is this your new mantra. :-) > >No, this is neither new nor a mantra. Sorry what I write bothers you so >much. There it is again. Another erroneous judgement. May you and your family find complete happiness in this life. Love Mozz x > Dear Andrew, > > Thank you for continuing our conversations without recourse to name > calling born of intolerance. It is my choice to remain civil. All praises belong to my heavenly Father whom I love with all my heart, soul, and mind :-) > I am glad you do not consider me a > 'worthless TROLL' etc. No one is worthless according to Christ whom I serve. You have the purpose of fulfilling God's will. > >> >It would seem that you know only what you feel (touch). > >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I never said I did not believe in other senses. You did not believe in the existence of God's gift of truth discernment. This is another sense. > Without 'feeling' that you had a soul, how else would you be aware of > having one, other than being told you had one? The same way that without "feeling" that you have a mind, you aware that you have one. > >You remind me of a blind man trying to pretend he can see and hoping > >noone will notice he can't. > > You think I cannot really see? I know you do not have God's gift of truth discernment. > Is this because I apparently do not > 'see' what you want me to 'see' - ie: literal belief in Christ? This is because you seem oblivious to the truth. > >> >> And is it possible that these feelings could be attributable to some > >> >> other explanation? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You prefer to 'believe' in the Christian explanation and close your > mind to any other. I prefer to use the gifts God has given me to glorify Him whom I love with all my heart, soul, and mind. > >> So you are unprepared to look at 'all' reasonable explanations. > > > >It remains my choice to use the senses God has given me. > > To use these senses in a very limited way though. The blind are in no position to evaluate how far a seeing person can see. > >> How can the truth bother me - truth is wonderful :-) > > > >They why are you trying so hard to deny it? > > I do not deny truth, I always seek it out. If you were to open your eyes, I might be inclined to believe you. > >If I had, your answer to my question would have been "no" but if you > >look below, it is not. > > ???? I do not understand this point you make ??? Sorry, that is as plainly as it can be written. > >> Yes I do believe in reincarnation. > > > >May your soul's victory over your dharma change you. > > I do not believe in 'soul' Andrew, but thank you for the kind wish. You are welcome. All praises belong to my heavenly Father, whom I love with all my heart, soul, and mind. > >> >It remains my choice to not judge others, including you. > >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > If it were merely observation you would not make value judgements like > - 'sorry my opinion bothers you / An apology is not a value judgment... > you seem defensive' etc ...nor is an observation. > >> Is this your new mantra. :-) > > > >No, this is neither new nor a mantra. Sorry what I write bothers you so > >much. > > There it is again. Another erroneous judgement. Sorry that what I continue to write continues to bother you (shrug). > May you and your family find complete happiness in this life. All praises belong to God whom I serve with all my heart, soul, and mind. You remain in my prayers, dear Mozz whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 Dear Andrew, >> Thank you for continuing our conversations without recourse to name >> calling born of intolerance. > >It is my choice to remain civil. All praises belong to my heavenly Father >whom I love with all my heart, soul, and mind :-) I think you need to take more credit for being civil and nice Andrew, forget the God fantasy and just reflect on your own good attributes. >No one is worthless according to Christ whom I serve. You have the purpose of >fulfilling God's will. May I ask a favour? Can you tell Mu that bit about no one being worthless according to Christ please? >> I never said I did not believe in other senses. >> >You did not believe in the existence of God's gift of truth discernment. This >is another sense. Because I do not believe in your unhealthy fantasy of having 'truth discernment' does not mean I do not accept there are other senses. >> Without 'feeling' that you had a soul, how else would you be aware of >> having one, other than being told you had one? > >The same way that without "feeling" that you have a mind, you aware that you >have one. I think, therefore I am. Hence 'Mind'. So without 'feel' or 'thought (which is mind)' how do you determine the existence of your soul? I am very interested in learning this. Prove to me I have a soul. >> You think I cannot really see? > >I know you do not have God's gift of truth discernment. I agree. Neither do you. There is no such thing. >> You prefer to 'believe' in the Christian explanation and close your >> mind to any other. >> >I prefer to use the gifts God has given me to glorify Him whom I love with all >my heart, soul, and mind. So you prefer to believe in the Christian explanation and close your mind to any other valid explanation. >> >> So you are unprepared to look at 'all' reasonable explanations. >> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >The blind are in no position to evaluate how far a seeing person can see. I agree, and as we have established your blindness to the truth other than your Christian bias, you seem in no position to evaluate how far a seeing person (like me) can see. >> I do not deny truth, I always seek it out. >> >If you were to open your eyes, I might be inclined to believe you. The ramblings of a blind fool again. >Sorry that what I continue to write continues to bother you (shrug). You do seem unhealthily preoccupied with the fantasy that you might be able to bother or upset me (shrug). :-) Love and Peace Mozz x > Dear Andrew, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I think you need to take more credit for being civil and nice Andrew, > forget the God fantasy and just reflect on your own good attributes. It remain my choice to redirect all praises to God whom I love with all my heart, soul, and mind. All that I am or could ever be is because of Him. > >No one is worthless according to Christ whom I serve. You have the purpose of > >fulfilling God's will. > > May I ask a favour? Certainly. > Can you tell Mu that bit about no one being > worthless according to Christ please? He knows as surely as Simon Peter knew when he drew his sword in the garden of Gethsemane. > >> I never said I did not believe in other senses. > >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Because I do not believe in your unhealthy fantasy of having 'truth > discernment' does not mean I do not accept there are other senses. You continue to remind me of the blind (from birth) man who stubbornly refuses to believe there could something as wondrous as vision. > >> Without 'feeling' that you had a soul, how else would you be aware of > >> having one, other than being told you had one? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I think, therefore I am. Hence 'Mind'. Glad you agree there is no "feeling." > So without 'feel' or 'thought (which is mind)' how do you determine > the existence of your soul? It is something that I believe everyone knows. Some folks rediscover that they know this when they have an "out of body experience" during death (aka NDE or Near Death Experience). > I am very interested in learning this. > Prove to me I have a soul. If God gave me such power, would you then accept Christ as your Lord and Savior by public declaration here (in the manner described by the good folks at TruthRus.org)? > >> You think I cannot really see? > > > >I know you do not have God's gift of truth discernment. > > I agree. Neither do you. There is no such thing. Then how would you explain what you have witnessed here in SMC? How would you explain the discovery of the 2PD Approach? > >> You prefer to 'believe' in the Christian explanation and close your > >> mind to any other. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So you prefer to believe in the Christian explanation and close your > mind to any other valid explanation. I prefer the truth. > >> >> So you are unprepared to look at 'all' reasonable explanations. > >> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I agree, Glad you agree with the truth. > and as we have established your blindness to the truth You are going to have to make up your mind. Either there is such a thing as GOd's gift of truth discernment (so that you can identify people without it) or there is no such thing (so what you just wrote has no meaning). > other > than your Christian bias, you seem in no position to evaluate how far > a seeing person (like me) can see. Along with God's gift of truth discernment, He has also blessed me with His gift of vision, so that in truth, I am able to evaluate how far you can see (assuming you can). > >> I do not deny truth, I always seek it out. > >> > >If you were to open your eyes, I might be inclined to believe you. > > The ramblings of a blind fool again. Your judgment. > >Sorry that what I continue to write continues to bother you (shrug). > > You do seem unhealthily preoccupied with the fantasy that you might be > able to bother or upset me (shrug). :-) It is what I sense. You remain in my prayers, dear Mozz whom I love. Servant to the humblest person in the universe, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ ** Who is the humblest person in the universe? http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048 What is all this about? http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48 Is this spam? http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867 > > Can you tell Mu that bit about no one being > > worthless according to Christ please? > > He knows as surely as Simon Peter knew when he drew his sword in the > garden of Gethsemane. Has he denied you three times, Andrew? Or, has he denied Christ three times? > You continue to remind me of the blind (from birth) man who stubbornly > refuses to believe there could something as wondrous as vision. You are certainly fixated on blindness, Andrew. Why is this? > > So without 'feel' or 'thought (which is mind)' how do you determine > > the existence of your soul? > > It is something that I believe everyone knows. Some folks rediscover > that they know this when they have an "out of body experience" during > death (aka NDE or Near Death Experience). So, you're saying you don't know, but that you believe. > > >I know you do not have God's gift of truth discernment. > > > > I agree. Neither do you. There is no such thing. > > Then how would you explain what you have witnessed here in SMC? I've witnessed a lot of people coming together to discuss maters that interest them. What does that have to do with truth discernment? > How > would you explain the discovery of the 2PD Approach? Eat less and lose weight ... you "discovered" this? > > >The blind are in no position to evaluate how far a seeing person can see. There's that blindness again. > > and as we have established your blindness to the truth ... and again. > You are going to have to make up your mind. Either there is such a > thing as GOd's gift of truth discernment (so that you can identify > people without it) or there is no such thing (so what you just wrote > has no meaning). Actually, it does have meaning. I guess your gift of truth discernment has overwhelmed your language centres. > Along with God's gift of truth discernment, He has also blessed me > with His gift of vision, so that in truth, I am able to evaluate how > far you can see (assuming you can). Wow, you're really obsessed with the whole vision/blindness bit! >> Dear Andrew, >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> heavenly Father whom I love with all my heart, soul, and mind >>> :-) Chung's idea of being civil is to disparage the beliefs of others, to demean them by questioning their honesty, to offer bluster at expressions he dislikes. He does the passive-aggressive fandango as well as anyone else who has all this hostility for anything but his ideas. >> I think you need to take more credit for being civil and nice >> Andrew, forget the God fantasy and just reflect on your own good [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > He knows as surely as Simon Peter knew when he drew his sword in > the garden of Gethsemane. So when he says otherwise, he's being, what honest? So when he denigrates others, it's Christian charity in action? >>>> I never said I did not believe in other senses. >>> >>> You did not believe in the existence of God's gift of truth >>> discernment. This is another sense. Might be a good time to define "sense" here. Senses presuppose sensors. Where, exactly, is this sensor located? What does it sense? Eyes sense light, ears sense vibrations... what does this unidentified sensor sense? >> Because I do not believe in your unhealthy fantasy of having >> 'truth discernment' does not mean I do not accept there are other [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > It is something that I believe everyone knows. "Believe..." > Some folks rediscover that they know this when they have an "out of > body experience" during death (aka NDE or Near Death Experience). Been there. Twice. I can't explain how or why (mechanism) it happened. But it didn't prove anything or disprove anything for me. >> I am very interested in learning this. Prove to me I have a soul. > > If God gave me such power, would you then accept Christ as your > Lord and Savior by public declaration here (in the manner described > by the good folks at TruthRus.org)? Right. So no effort to try to prove it. No description of it, no way to find it, no criteria for its existence. Lots of smarter people than Chung have tried to find, measure, detail or otherwise demonstrate the existence of the soul. It remains an article of faith. "The good folks at TruthRus.org" are you, Chung. Just as phony as your FAQ. >>>> You think I cannot really see? >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Then how would you explain what you have witnessed here in SMC? <LOL> Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is a good explanation. Fanaticism. Fundamentalist excess. Hubris. Egotism and narcissism. > How would you explain the discovery of the 2PD Approach? The "discovery" of the 2PD is a sad little story. It remains a bizarre episode in what seems to be a rather confused life. Triggered by seeing a movie about Everest climbers and developed through serious misunderstandings about what they eat, how they eat it and what their normal demands are. They eat multiples of 2 pounds of food a day and Chung refuses to accept the testimony of actual Everest climbers that his notion has utterly nothing to do with their reality. Now he says it was just a triggering point rather than an effort to duplicate their diet as he claimed for so long. "Good enough for Everest climbers; good enough for *everyone* all the time" has been his unbalanced mantra. He claims to have led many people to the diet yet no science behind it, no clear statement of its realities, no data. Vague injunctions like "use common sense" are his usage guidelines. The 2PD isn't a "discovery" so much as an aberrant view, tailored, modified, round peg forced into a square hole kind of simplistic understanding. "Fat people should eat less if they want to lose weight" makes sense. "Everyone - fat or skinny - should only eat 2 pounds of food a day is insanity. >>>> You prefer to 'believe' in the Christian explanation and >>>> close your mind to any other. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I prefer the truth. Non sequitur. >>>>>> So you are unprepared to look at 'all' reasonable >>>>>> explanations. >>>>> >>>>> It remains my choice to use the senses God has given me. Non sequitur. >>>> To use these senses in a very limited way though. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > with His gift of vision, so that in truth, I am able to evaluate > how far you can see (assuming you can). Bwah. "I am able to evaluate how far you can see (assuming you can)" means he doesn't know if you can see. Where's that Chungish Gift of Vision when you need it? So this vision business isn't about eyes which sense light. Where is this sensor? What, exactly, does it sense? Does it sense some occult vibrations of he universe than can't be detected or measured like the "gift of Truth Discernment?" >>>> I do not deny truth, I always seek it out. >>>> >>> If you were to open your eyes, I might be inclined to believe >>> you. Non sequitur. >> The ramblings of a blind fool again. > > Your judgment. True, but non sequitur. >>> Sorry that what I continue to write continues to bother you >>> (shrug). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It is what I sense. Pity poor Chung. It's outside the realm of his thinking that he might be wrong about *anything* It's what he senses, he says. Somehow, his senses can find the immaterial. Somehow his occult visions travel global spans and "sense" what others think. Or what they're like off usenet. Or what they do for a living. Or what their life needs are. Here's the real deal. Given that Chung can *prove* none of these insane claims, they remain merely his aberrational lunacies. He can't prove and he can't explain - this from a man who claims to be a scientist. It's merely the fevered imaginings of a man gone around the bend. He talks about these "gifts" like they're in common currency and that others should know about them, too. Funny how no one else claims them. They realize how wacky it all is. Nothing but his word and he's a demonstrated liar. A proven fraud. Chung's outlandish claims about what he "senses" in the lives of others is a study in patterned madness. What R.D.Laing talked about when he described the "almost meaning" in the efforts at communications of schizophrenics. Chungish opaque postings and slip-slides away from actual accountability. Sad, really. Bob > It would seem that you know only what you feel (touch), Mozz. The faithless have only what they can feel, see, touch; they have only their senses and no sense for anything that is not temporal. > This reminds me of a seeing man closing his eyes and groping around to > "see." Very much so. Dear Mu, >> It would seem that you know only what you feel (touch), Mozz. > >The faithless have only what they can feel, see, touch; they have only >their senses and no sense for anything that is not temporal. By the 'faithless' of course, you mean those that have no faith in Christ. There are many other expressions of faith. I have faith in the efficacy of the dharma. It is ironic, buddhism teaches quite extensively on the subject of 'Emptiness' - that nothing exists in isolation without reference to something else. All temporal are merely conceptual. Therefore, I think I have quite a good grasp on things non-temporal my friend. >> This reminds me of a seeing man closing his eyes and groping around to >> "see." > >Very much so. Yes, according to you I am blind and stupid and the lowest of the low. And yet I seem so important to you that you cannot resist elaborating further on my failings. You remain in my heartfelt dedications dear friend. Mozz x >>It would seem that you know only what you feel (touch), Mozz. Of course, this is false on the face of it. Typical Chung lying about others when he can't vanquish them in his compulsive combats. > The faithless have only what they can feel, see, touch; they have only > their senses and no sense for anything that is not temporal. <LOL> MU_ngbean does it again. Watch this: NO ONE has a sense for anything that is not temporal. But please do tell us more about human behavior and philosophical niceties. Undereducated featherweight. The faithless (you don't really mean faithless; you mean people who don't buy your Disney view of Jesus) generally employ those rational faculties we're endowed with. Otherwise why have them? >>This reminds me of a seeing man closing his eyes and groping around to >>"see." > > Very much so. Of course it does. It lets you be smug and certain that Jesus thinks exactly as you do. I don't think I'd bet on that... Bob > > Where is this 'soul' Andrew? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Energy. Made of energy, is it? Well, then, why is that we have been unable to detect this energy, Andrew? > > How do you know you have one? > > The same way I know I have God's gift of vision. Oh, man! The ol' bullshit detector jumped right off the scale on that one. > This reminds me of a seeing man closing his eyes > and groping around to "see." I've met blind people who can see with their hands. >> Dear Andrew, >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Your soul was trying to break through before your mind shut it > down. More of Chung's "truth discernment" in action. When it can't find truth, it makes it up. And it uses these cryptic sentences of almost-meaning (see R.D.Laing for a fuller explanation) for self-justification. Looks like good mental health, right...? >> You cannot 'edit out' peoples conflicting views I'm afraid >> Andrew, as much as you might wish you could :-) > > With God's help and blessing I am able to do anything. See how it works? With God's help and blessing, Chung can create a lie. And he seems so proud of it. >> My actual quote in full: I know God exists 'only in your >> imagination and the imagination of other theists.' Yep. That's what he said. Before Chung made it into a lie. Bob > My actual quote in full: I know God exists 'only in your imagination > and the imagination of other theists.' You don't "know" that; you theorize that. Dear Mu, Odd how your critical faculty seems not as focused on many of Andrew's posts as well... >> My actual quote in full: I know God exists 'only in your imagination >> and the imagination of other theists.' > >You don't "know" that; you theorize that. When Andrew regularly states that he 'knows' God exists and that he 'knows' everyone believes in God you stay silent. Why is that? Is Andrew not 'theorising' that God exists and that 'everyone knows' God exists? I think this post demands a fair response Mu seeing as you are so hot on 'credibility'. Love Mozz x >>> My actual quote in full: I know God exists 'only in your imagination >>> and the imagination of other theists.' >> >>You don't "know" that; you theorize that. > When Andrew regularly states that he 'knows' God exists and that he > 'knows' everyone believes in God you stay silent. Why is that? What difference does it make to who and when I post? It doesn't change the fact that you theorize that God does not actually exist and that you know nothing for certain about God. And why should you? You don't walk with His Son as he and I do and until you do, you will never know God the way that Andrew and I do. You cannot know about if you do not believe. If you have been given a gift of faith, along comes the knowledge. > Is Andrew not 'theorising' that God exists and that 'everyone knows' > God exists? If I had not had personal discussions with him about this, I would tell you to refer these questions to Chung. Since I have, he is not theorizing because along with faith and Christ comes the necessary knowledge and discernment about the supernatural. > I think this post demands a fair response Mu seeing as you are so hot > on 'credibility'. And you got one, Mozz, didn't you? You would have gotten one with our without making this idle, Usenet challenge too. > MU wrote: >>>> My actual quote in full: I know God exists 'only in your >>>> imagination and the imagination of other theists.' [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What difference does it make to who and when I post? That you ask reveals volumes about you. It's about your credibility when you attack others. Your agenda. Your fevered need to try to humble others who don't buy your fakery. > It doesn't change the fact that you theorize that God does not > actually exist and that you know nothing for certain about God. Duh. Stipulated. > And why should you? You don't walk with His Son as he and I do and > until you do, you will never know God the way that Andrew and I do. See, here's the problem. You "claim" to walk with God as does Chung, and you claim to be guided by him. And you two are simply and demonstrably dishonest in other matters. It becomes virtually impossible to believe anything you post. In short, you lie. As for that "walking with" image you peddle, it denotes a very specific act that I don't believe is an actual experience; can't imagine it in the real world. Walk along the street and there's a solid guy there? If you mean that you mumble to yourself and call it "walking with" then I'll buy it. Otherwise, save your emotional claptrap imagery for the kids. > You cannot know about if you do not believe. If you have been given > a gift of faith, along comes the knowledge. If you have faith, you *believe* you know. And just because you *believe* doesn't make it true. Knowledge can only be the result of logical proof. Belief can be the result of indigestion... >> Is Andrew not 'theorising' that God exists and that 'everyone >> knows' God exists? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > theorizing because along with faith and Christ comes the necessary > knowledge and discernment about the supernatural. All unprovable and all undemonstrable. As such, purely the product of wishful faith. But he most assuredly is "theorizing" when he says that "everyone knows" that God exists. It is abundantly clear that that's simply untrue if only based on people having said so here. >> I think this post demands a fair response Mu seeing as you are so >> hot on 'credibility'. > > And you got one, Mozz, didn't you? Well, yes. Sorta. It's *a* response, but not a meaningful one. > You would have gotten one with our without making this idle, Usenet > challenge too. Oh, look it's the $10,000 dollar man... Bob >> When Andrew regularly states that he 'knows' God exists and that he >> 'knows' everyone believes in God you stay silent. Why is that? > >What difference does it make to who and when I post? Well, if you have any credible respect for balance, impartiality and fairness then you will know why it makes such a difference Mu. > It doesn't change the >fact that you theorize that God does not actually exist and that you know >nothing for certain about God. I 'know' God does not exist - yet you pull me up and say I can only 'theorize'. Andrew 'knows' God exists - but that's ok, that's different - due to your choice to believe he has special 'supernatural gifts of discernment'. And yet you are unprepared to accept the validity of a buddhist 'special gift of truth discernment' right? >And why should you? You don't walk with His Son as he and I do and until >you do, you will never know God the way that Andrew and I do. How can I walk with that which I know does not exist? I accept that to you and Andrew God seems as real as this post you are reading, but that does not mean He actually 'objectively' is. >You cannot know about if you do not believe. If you have been given a gift >of faith, along comes the knowledge. Well that's kind of lame Catch-22 type illogic. You gotta believe to understand - otherwise you can't have an opinion! Surely if I were like you in that regard I should be saying 'you can't comment on buddhism because you don't understand! Until you walk with the dharma you will never know the truth that is in buddhism! >> Is Andrew not 'theorising' that God exists and that 'everyone knows' >> God exists? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >because along with faith and Christ comes the necessary knowledge and >discernment about the supernatural. In your opinion. Which frankly, objectively - means nothing to anyone but you. >> I think this post demands a fair response Mu seeing as you are so hot >> on 'credibility'. > >And you got one, Mozz, didn't you? You would have gotten one with our >without making this idle, Usenet challenge too. It was you that made the initial 'idle' Usenet challenge my friend. And now you look silly. You remain in my dedications. Love Mozz x >>> When Andrew regularly states that he 'knows' God exists and that he >>> 'knows' everyone believes in God you stay silent. Why is that? >> >>What difference does it make to who and when I post? > Well, if you have any credible respect for balance, impartiality and > fairness then you will know why it makes such a difference Mu. Mozz, this is just a jumble of words slung together; I don't see the tie back to the above two sentences. This is becoming boring. >> It doesn't change the >>fact that you theorize that God does not actually exist and that you know >>nothing for certain about God. > I 'know' God does not exist - yet you pull me up and say I can only > 'theorize'. > Andrew 'knows' God exists - but that's ok, that's different That's correct. It is. The difference, and I repeat again, is that you do not walk with Christ, Chug does. You cannot know of what you do not believe and live. Living in Christ is an education that can only be obtained through faith in Him. You will never understand, never claim the knowledge unless you do. It is presumptuous of you to even consider that you do. > - due to > your choice to believe he has special 'supernatural gifts of > discernment'. Your twist of words, not mine. Now you are becoming tedious. > And yet you are unprepared to accept the validity of a buddhist > 'special gift of truth discernment' right? I don't know about the validity of Buddha nor do I care. That's between you and Christ. I refuse to put Christ in a box and seal Him up theologically. Why should I? He sits at the right hand of the Creator, can't He then do anything He wishes? Look for someone else to judge your buddhism; it's not my place and I am not interested in doing so. >>And why should you? You don't walk with His Son as he and I do and until >>you do, you will never know God the way that Andrew and I do. > How can I walk with that which I know does not exist? I agree, Mozz, and, frankly, you may never become a Christian. > I accept that to you and Andrew God seems as real as this post you are > reading, but that does not mean He actually 'objectively' is. We differ; see above. >>You cannot know about if you do not believe. If you have been given a gift >>of faith, along comes the knowledge. > Well that's kind of lame Catch-22 type illogic. You gotta believe to > understand - Correct >otherwise you can't have an opinion! You can have all the opinions you desire, Mozz. Free will; use it freely. You have heard this many, many times before. Now you have degraded this thread to the point of absurdidty with the above sentence. > Surely if I were like you in that regard I should be saying 'you can't > comment on buddhism because you don't understand! Until you walk with > the dharma you will never know the truth that is in buddhism! I believe that you just repeated what I said above, Mozz. We are now at absurdity, bordering on useless. >>> Is Andrew not 'theorising' that God exists and that 'everyone knows' >>> God exists? >>If I had not had personal discussions with him about this, I would tell you >>to refer these questions to Chung. Since I have, he is not theorizing >>because along with faith and Christ comes the necessary knowledge and >>discernment about the supernatural. > In your opinion. Which frankly, objectively - means nothing to anyone > but you. I believe that you just repeated what I said above, Mozz. I'm not interested in taking a head count of Usenet converts; free will Mozz, use it freely. And now you have passes inot useless in this conversation. >>> I think this post demands a fair response Mu seeing as you are so hot >>> on 'credibility'. >>And you got one, Mozz, didn't you? You would have gotten one with our >>without making this idle, Usenet challenge too. > It was you that made the initial 'idle' Usenet challenge my friend. > And now you look silly. You are nothing more than a common place TROLL, Mozz. Boring, absurd and useless. > You remain in my dedications. > > Love > > Mozz x And now you are a liar. A liar and a TROLL, Mozz. Nothing cheaper exists on Usenet. So off with you and enjoy yourself, Mozz, with circular arguments, mistatements (untruths, deceptions and outright lies) and restatements of the obvious. Find someone else whose words you can twist, that you can lie to and will play along in this immature game that you want call a theological discussion. I gave you a chance to act like an adult, your Usenet history is one of foolishness and wasted time; you can't pull yourself up enough to do so I could care less about continuing any further with you. Dear MU, >> Well, if you have any credible respect for balance, impartiality and >> fairness then you will know why it makes such a difference Mu. > >Mozz, this is just a jumble of words slung together; I don't see the tie >back to the above two sentences. This is becoming boring. I am sorry my reasonable questions trouble you so. My point is simple to behold - You do not apply the same fair impartial open minded critique to all posts. This does not bode well for you as an example of Christian behaviour. >> I 'know' God does not exist - yet you pull me up and say I can only >> 'theorize'. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >obtained through faith in Him. You will never understand, never claim the >knowledge unless you do. I will 'never' understand....An amazing attitude for a happy loving Christian to take towards another...Did you learn this skillful and intolerant approach in church? >> - due to >> your choice to believe he has special 'supernatural gifts of >> discernment'. > >Your twist of words, not mine. Now you are becoming tedious. You seem very irritated my friend. Do you believe Andrew has these supernatural gifts of truth discernment or not? >> And yet you are unprepared to accept the validity of a buddhist >> 'special gift of truth discernment' right? > >I don't know about the validity of Buddha nor do I care. That's between you >and Christ. Such arrogance! "I don't care and have no interest in a dialogue about your religious beliefs Mozz, but I'll punctuate every line of this with mine - Christ this, Christ that..." Can you not see how ridiculous and intolerant you are appearing? >I refuse to put Christ in a box and seal Him up theologically. Why should >I? He sits at the right hand of the Creator, can't He then do anything He >wishes? I'm sure he can do anything in your imagination - in reality however, no. >Look for someone else to judge your buddhism; it's not my place and I am >not interested in doing so. And yet you see it as your place to leap in and judge me and my reasonable posts. >> How can I walk with that which I know does not exist? > >I agree, Mozz, and, frankly, you may never become a Christian. True. Do you think your intolerant attitudes in these posts are likely to win me over? >> Well that's kind of lame Catch-22 type illogic. You gotta believe to >> understand - [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >You have heard this many, many times before. Now you have degraded this >thread to the point of absurdidty with the above sentence. In what way have I 'degraded' this thread? And why are you so keen to frame me as absurd? My point was reasonable, it merits a reasonable response surely? Not a hail of abusive intolerance. >> Surely if I were like you in that regard I should be saying 'you can't >> comment on buddhism because you don't understand! Until you walk with >> the dharma you will never know the truth that is in buddhism! > >I believe that you just repeated what I said above, Mozz. We are now at >absurdity, bordering on useless. If so, why are you wasting your valuable time on me? >> In your opinion. Which frankly, objectively - means nothing to anyone >> but you. > >I believe that you just repeated what I said above, Mozz. I'm not >interested in taking a head count of Usenet converts; free will Mozz, use >it freely. And now you have passes inot useless in this conversation. Your last sentence was poorly constructed and makes no sense. >> It was you that made the initial 'idle' Usenet challenge my friend. >> And now you look silly. > >You are nothing more than a common place TROLL, Mozz. Boring, absurd and >useless. If that is your judgement then so be it. >> You remain in my dedications. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >And now you are a liar. A liar and a TROLL, Mozz. Nothing cheaper exists on >Usenet. Your anger and intolerance toward me here seems way out of proportion to our conversation. Why are you so upset Mu? I haven't called you anything abusive, and I have conducted these posts with good honest motivation. >So off with you and enjoy yourself, Mozz, with circular arguments, >mistatements (untruths, deceptions and outright lies) and restatements of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >foolishness and wasted time; you can't pull yourself up enough to do so I >could care less about continuing any further with you. Fair enough Mu. You are clearly very upset by our dialogue. Perhaps I have touched on something true within you that has shaken your faith - this can feel very upsetting. I bed you farewell my friend, and wish you all the very best in the future. Take care. Mozz x >>>>When Andrew regularly states that he 'knows' God exists and that he >>>>'knows' everyone believes in God you stay silent. Why is that? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Mozz, this is just a jumble of words slung together; I don't see the tie > back to the above two sentences. This is becoming boring. Sadly, this is the sum and substance of all that MU_cilage can deal with. He can't see himself in the grand scheme of things and can only grasp the world in these infantile terms. No rigor, no study, no consideration, no attention span... "I don't see the tie..." > And now you are a liar. A liar and a TROLL, Mozz. Nothing cheaper exists on > Usenet. This from one who has trolled groups with condemnatory posts in efforts to embarrass people. This from a proven liar. This from a man so parched of spirit and so morally bankrupt as to try to smear with innuendo and falsehoods. Mozz is a rational, non-combative person, by contrast. MU_lcter is right about cheapness. He's a troll and liar. And there's nothing cheaper on usenet. Or anywhere else, for that matter. > So off with you and enjoy yourself, Mozz, with circular arguments, > mistatements (untruths, deceptions and outright lies) and restatements of > the obvious. FOITN > Find someone else whose words you can twist, that you can lie to and will > play along in this immature game that you want call a theological > discussion. Of course, a "theological" discussion with Chung and MU_ggins means you get to read all about their perfect grasp on fundamentalist, wacko, Ashcroft Christianity smugly contrasted with your stupidity, duplicity and deliberate waywardness. The Chung and MU_cous Church of the Knee-jerk Jesus of Not Too Much Inconvenience... <LOL> > I gave you a chance to act like an adult, Bwah > your Usenet history is one of > foolishness and wasted time; If only we all had a penny for all the times that different people have posted these dismissive ideas about Chung and MU_llet... > you can't pull yourself up enough to do so I > could care less about continuing any further with you. Oh, look. Another example of MU_mpsimus and his charming misuse of English and its myriad clichés. Wonderful, except for the missing intelligence and meaning Fraudulent sap. Bob > Everyone knows God is not real. Mozz, you lost all credibility right there. Everyone? Dr Chung wrote - 'Everyone knows God exists' In the same vain Andrew has also lost all credibility right there too, right Mu? With heartfelt compassion... Mozz x >> Everyone knows God is not real. > >Mozz, you lost all credibility right there. Everyone? >>> Everyone knows God is not real. >> >>Mozz, you lost all credibility right there. Everyone? > Dr Chung wrote - 'Everyone knows God exists' > > In the same vain Andrew has also lost all credibility right there too, > right Mu? Wrong, Mozz. Asked and answered above. > With heartfelt compassion... > > Mozz x Is it necessary for you to add these disingenuous salutations? What does it gain you? >> Dr Chung wrote - 'Everyone knows God exists' >> >> In the same vain Andrew has also lost all credibility right there too, >> right Mu? >Wrong, Mozz. Asked and answered above. Your choice. Your opinion. Nothing more. >> With heartfelt compassion... >> >> Mozz x > >Is it necessary for you to add these disingenuous salutations? What does it >gain you? I'm sorry you perceive my genuine and respectful intentions as 'disingenuous'. My pure motivation born of compassion brings me merit. With heartfelt compassion to you and yours Mu.... Mozz x Always nice to hear from you. Smoke > Hi Andrew, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Mozz x >Always nice to hear from you. > >Smoke Thank you Smoke. I hope you and yours are all well! Mozz x > Always nice to hear from you. Indeed, it is. A wind of peace and individual balance through corridors afflicted with pronounced absolutes and mandates. Always nice. Bob > Smoke > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >>Mozz x Hi Bob, >> Always nice to hear from you. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Bob That's very kind of you, thanks. Always good to read your articulate and witty posts too. Mozz x |
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